The Hunting Philosopher - Is a hunt complete without a kill?

[Padron]

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job.


Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting.


Do you agree with this? Is the desire to hunt not completely fulfilled without the kill?

As much pleasure as I take in the planning, effort, time in nature, etc... I do feel as if the depth of my experience is made much more profound and complete in having taken part in the death of another animal.

[rocksteady]

I agree in part but that is just me. A lot depends on the time available to the individual. If, like me, you have a lot of flexibility and good access to game animals near home, you can spend tonnes of time enjoying the outdoors without harvesting something each time......

However, others who have work/family/time constraints that only get a couple of long weekendds to put meat in the freezer may look at it that if theres no meat, then no success..

Its like Jelly's question the other day.....Glass Half Full or Half Empty....Depends on each individual...

[Surrey Boy]

Is intercourse satisfying without fertilization? Flirting without taking it anywhere is fun too, but generally the farther you go . . .?

As far as having to work for it, that's the whole point. Why wooing a lady and visiting a brothel are completely different.

[Jelvis]

Not a bad read seen it before, the guy is certainly high, on hunting lol..I'd say Rocky Mountain High lol
.. Hunting is only hunting while the animal is alive or wounded and has escaped for the moment ..
If downed dead the hunt is over
Jelly Ray Gunz and Hozez .. Every Ro$e ha$ it'$ thorn$ .. Poison Creek freak! J My Son .. Shelley .. Dunsapie
Mayson .. Gorman..Longshoremen..metoots..headininn..whitelak e..lookout..stuartlake..bob..brown..beaverhut hut hagen..fishtrap..whitecreek..whisperingpines..blac k pines..o'conner..batchelor..watchingcreek..passlak e

[trapperRick]

Hunting for me is having spent time with my son's and my close, close friends, time away from the hub hub of the city, cell phones, cars, traffic and job. Don't get me wrong when I hunt (I hunt) I'm a black powder guy (we try harder) and I want to get my game but if I don't so what!!! I still will have had a good time with people that make my day, bullshitting around a fire etc... wandering out in the bush it's what makes me me.

[Bow Walker]

Hunting is all about the experience, right from the planning on through to the B.S. sessions before, during, and afterward.

It's all about the camaraderie and fellowship and sharing. Who, these days, has use hunting to get meat on the table? We hunt and eat the game because we both can and we want to.

Hunting is also all about enjoying the out-of-doors experience. Being out there where you're on your own, the cool crisp sunrises, the long slow sunsets, the quietness of the deep woods, cooking over an open fire, and sleeping out there with mother nature.

Meat on the table is a bonus - not a result.

[Mr. Dean]

What he is after is having to win it....

I couldn't agree more.

IMO the kill doesn't make the hunt. For me its all about learning and just being "there". And when the kill DOES come around, you can stand their and exclaim that you and you alone, were responsible for it---------> You have WON!

Great quote. :mrgreen:

[moosecaller]

A hunt without a kill can be an expensive hike/roadtrip. If you did the same thing without a rifle/bow this is what it would be. That is not to say it is not enjoyable and rewarding in it's own way, but it's really just semantics both can give extreme pleasure and satisfy the primal needs. It is like fishing without catching something are you just drowning worms? It's all a frame of mind isn't it? At the end of the day how do you feel?

[moosecaller]

Is intercourse satisfying without fertilization?
( Don't they call this dodging the bullet at times?)
Flirting without taking it anywhere is fun too,
( Dangerous as well if the Mrs' finds out, worse than a wounded grizz.)
but generally the farther you go . . .?

As far as having to work for it, that's the whole point. Why wooing a lady and visiting a brothel are completely different.
(Sometime you just want to target shoot for the practice)

PS. It's been a very long time but do they still have surrey girls jokes? too funny.

[peashooter]

hunting is about killing stuff dead. :mrgreen:

[835]

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job.


Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting.


Do you agree with this? Is the desire to hunt not completely fulfilled without the kill?

.

That is not what he is saying. He is saying we are not out there for free meat but the presuit of it.

And if the kill is not nessary you are hiking.
This does not mean that killing is the only thing that will make your trip fun. But face it if you are a hunter you are out there to kill vs if you are not out there to kill you are not a hunter.

[orion]

Jose Ortega y Gasset's quote is very meaningful to me and one that I can really relate to.

One of my most memorable and fulfilling hunts is one that I didn't pull the trigger on although I considered doing so several times over the course of 15 minutes. On a back pack goat hunt, we were able to work to about 80 yds. uphill of a mature billy that stood backlit on an outcrop. His magnificence had to be seen to be believed and I didn't think a mount on my wall would capture that moment. My hunting partner was directly behind me and was able to capture a picture of me sighting down my rifle over the alpine on the goat in the distance. I treasure this memory as much as the B & C mount and other trophies that it hangs next to.

I'm also prepared to accept that for others, this would not be the preferred outcome and have no difficulty with that.

I can not accept what 835 has said in the quote below. I very much consider this example as just as true a hunt reflecting good hunting skills as any of his "kill hunts" and suggest that in many cases it is more of a hunt than are demonstrated some "kill" hunts.



And if the kill is not nessary you are hiking.
This does not mean that killing is the only thing that will make your trip fun. But face it if you are a hunter you are out there to kill vs if you are not out there to kill you are not a hunter.

[moosecaller]

Jose Ortega y Gasset's quote is very meaningful to me and one that I can really relate to.

One of my most memorable and fulfilling hunts is one that I didn't pull the trigger on although I considered doing so several times over the course of 15 minutes. On a back pack goat hunt, we were able to work to about 80 yds. uphill of a mature billy that stood backlit on an outcrop. His magnificence had to be seen to be believed and I didn't think a mount on my wall would capture that moment. My hunting partner was directly behind me and was able to capture a picture of me sighting down my rifle over the alpine on the goat in the distance. I treasure this memory as much as the B & C mount and other trophies that it hangs next to.

I'm also prepared to accept that for others, this would not be the preferred outcome and have no difficulty with that.

I can not accept what 835 has said in the quote below. I very much consider this example as just as true a hunt reflecting good hunting skills as any of his "kill hunts" and suggest that in many cases it is more of a hunt than are demonstrated some "kill" hunts.


I think you demonstrated good stalking abilities and seemed to be fufilled by your effort, but I don't think it could really be considered hunting in the true form of the meaning, I think what you did there was called photography,you did not need to carry a rifle to have the same results, a lifelong memory. If this gave you a good feeling great, but let's not confuse hunting for anything than what it really is.

[moosecaller]

http://usera.ImageCave.com/moosecaller/moose.jpg
Photography/ Fork spike moose, walked away after this picture. Satisfying nice to see such an animal gave me a good feeling.

http://usera.ImageCave.com/moosecaller/IMG_0561.jpg
Hunting/ Fork spike moose, did not walk away. Also satisfying gave me a good feeling as well and tasted really good!

[blackwater moose]

hunting to me is , good friends,good times, bagging an animal......bonus!

[Walking Buffalo]

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job.


Jose Ortega y Gasset, Meditations on Hunting.


Do you agree with this? Is the desire to hunt not completely fulfilled without the kill?

Absolutely. The kill and subsequent events can only be experienced by killing.

[chilko]

Obviously , in defining yourself as a hunter your intent is to harvest an animal. The fact that you choose to be a selective hunter does not diminish the pleasure at all , in fact I believe it increases the satisfaction when you do harvest an animal that fits a predetermined criteria.

[Crimson Viking]

I doubt many can really say that the hunt wasnt more enjoyable , when they sucessfull harvested their animal. For me, the hunt experience, is everything , rolled into one. The comradery, the planning , the camp time, and the actuall hunt, being on their turf, learning about the game , in the great natural setting. etc. The icing on the cake is a successful harvest. Having said that im always a bit disappionted after taking an animal, because the hunt is often over., and if ur tagged out it means u wont have a chance to hunt again that year. Yes i know that are always other oppertunities for other species but not always enough time.

[dime]

I enjoy the experience of hunting, but the biggest thrill comes from the opportunity to harvest game. A much more exciting day results from a chance at a buck. The other aspect that I really enjoy is the high fives and retelling of the hunt, the ritual of hanging a game pole (always done after the kill) and skinning the animal . None of these pleasures can be had without a kill. Does not have to be me who pulled the trigger, but someone in our group had to have been lucky to get to experience these things. Not to mention all the meat, no kill no dinner!

[orion]

...but I don't think it could really be considered hunting in the true form of the meaning, I think what you did there was called photography,you did not need to carry a rifle to have the same results, a lifelong memory. If this gave you a good feeling great, but let's not confuse hunting for anything than what it really is.


Nope, I guess my "hunting" trip was a real failure because I didn't even take the picture.

However, I'm not a complete failure as a hunter. I've had a couple of -" Whoa! Stop the truck! Our pepperoni is standing there. Bang, flop" trips. Obviously, I've been really misguided and this is what true "hunting" trips should look like:mrgreen: - but I wouldn't trade 100 of them for my failed photography trip above.:-D

There are two real good discussion on the www.accuratereloading.com (http://www.accuratereloading.com) "African Hunting" forum right now about Hunting and Shooting and Canned Lion Hunting.

[dana]

For me personally, I hunt to have hunted. It's the pursuit that does it for me. And I can say 99.9% of the time, the animal is the winner, not me. I've sat on my hands on many a mature buck knowing I could pull the pin and have a 'kill' but I didn't want my hunt to come to an end. I've had numerous seasons where I've ate tag soup and been completely satisfied. Hunting my ass off, being whipped both physically and mentally, putting my best down in a brute's home turf and having him still come out on top and live to see yet another year in both his world and my dreams. That too me is still a complete and worthy hunt.

[Blktail]

I have had good hunts when I didn't kill anything and I have bad hunts when I was successful. The best hunts are good ones when I have been successful. It's all about the whole experience. It is a spectrum (disorder).

A bad day hunting is better than a good day at work. (Unless your truck is sitting on its frame in gumbo a long ways from camp. Happened once and I was not happy for a long time, even though I got a moose the day before.):cry:

[BigSlapper]

I hunt 40-60 days a year ... the vast majority of my days end without a kill ... and yet these "empty days" hold some of my fondest memories ... and nothing like laying in your bunk at night, running through your entire day and scoring yourself on your days plan and, what, if anything, you'll change for the next day.

[SHAKER]

Ask any real hound guy and they'll tell you yes! Me included, one of my best days ever hunting didn't even have me carrying a rifle.

[Padron]

There appears to be a general agreement that hunting transcends the kill. There is no question that a day in the woods watching game and conversing with friends and nature can be wonderfully satisfying.

The point of debate seems to be whether or not it is truly 'hunting' without at least the intention of a kill. I think that is what the author meant when he said, "one kills in order to have hunted", namely that hunting is unique from hiking, camping, photography, etc. specifically because of the very natural/disturbing/powerful/permanent element of the kill.

[Jelvis]

If your not going to kill anything when you hunt, might as well leave the gun at home and take a camera and a recording device.
Jel .. guns too heavy just to carry around lol ..

[Ambush]

Would you spend your time fishing in a lake, that you knew for sure was sterile?
Would you hunt a location that you knew for sure held no game?

I think, to be hunting, there must be some expectation of killing something. Otherwise, you are hunting more like a well fed house cat. It's fun, but whatever.

You can hunt and not kill something, and still enjoy the day. But if you had no real intention of killing something, then were you really hunting?

[Jelvis]

To some it's hunting and others it's getting away from the house for once and you know who. lol..
jel .. get me outta here lol..

[grumps]

hunting is more than just a kill. hunting is the planning wether by your self or with special friends and family members. hunting is the days spent in the bush,the birds seen or shot the little critters running by or if u r very lucky a kill is made. now the true test of your companions, do we all chip in and do the gutting the getting the carcass to camp ,hanging skinning quartaring etc this is what u remember.the hunt is never over as long as somebody can tell that tale. memories told around the campfires or over a beer or two will keep that "hunt" alive 4 ever. Cheers and a successful season to u all Grumps

[Lone Ranger]

Some of the best hunts I've ever been on I didn't even fire a single shot the whole time. Get out with some good friends and do some good hunting, its all good. If I knock something over then its just all the better I guess.

Four of us did a 4 day hunt up Hart Ridge a few years back, packed along an absolute ton of food. It was pathetic, ate buffet style and drank our heads off the whole time, I think we hiked about 4 or 5 km's and hunted maybe 3 or 4 hours of the whole trip, we were far too bloated to do much else. OK, it was a lame hunting trip perhaps but it was probably some of the most fun I have ever had camping (and probably one of the ones we still laugh about the most). I've also done gruelling two person hike-in hunting trips where we nearly starved the whole time and had a blast doing that too, its all about the atmosphere and sharing it with friends I think. Filling the freezer's a plus on top of it for me personally. LR

[Bear Chaser]

For me hunting by its very definition has to include the very real possibility that an animal will die. I may choose not to kill a particular animal for a variety of reasons( ie. too small, too big, too far to pack, wrong color, etc.) but the fact remains that I HUNTED.
So Orion didn't pull the trigger on said goat; I believe him fully when he says it's one of his favourite trophies. Some of the most poignant hunting memories I have are of the ones that were pursued and got away or were let go.
I suspect that some of the people in this conversation have a very limited number of animals to their credit. There is nothing wrong with that as we all were there once. However many hunters find that as time goes on the kill takes on secondary importance to the quality of the hunt and the way we hunted.

[hunter1947]

My desire is just being out in the wild with nature ,the thrill of the hunt is there alright but if I don't put an animal down the hunt will not be taken away from me.

Lots of times I have called in a fired up bull elk and played with him for sometimes an hour and then suddenly its all over with he has vanished in thin air.

This to me is as good or even better then finishing it off with a kill ,lets face it if every animal you saw that was a keeper for you and you ended shooting each one without any ever getting away from you to me it would not be no challenge..

[835]

Jose Ortega y Gasset's quote is very meaningful to me and one that I can really relate to.

One of my most memorable and fulfilling hunts is one that I didn't pull the trigger on although I considered doing so several times over the course of 15 minutes. On a back pack goat hunt, we were able to work to about 80 yds. uphill of a mature billy that stood backlit on an outcrop. His magnificence had to be seen to be believed and I didn't think a mount on my wall would capture that moment. My hunting partner was directly behind me and was able to capture a picture of me sighting down my rifle over the alpine on the goat in the distance. I treasure this memory as much as the B & C mount and other trophies that it hangs next to.

I'm also prepared to accept that for others, this would not be the preferred outcome and have no difficulty with that.

I can not accept what 835 has said in the quote below. I very much consider this example as just as true a hunt reflecting good hunting skills as any of his "kill hunts" and suggest that in many cases it is more of a hunt than are demonstrated some "kill" hunts.



I Am not saying that i only hunt to kill.

What i am saying is that we all hunt for different reasons, Some are the same but.

The only constant between us all is we hunt to kill. Weather it be to fill the freezer or find a trophy. The point of hunting fundamentally is to kill an animal for whatever reason "YOU" have. Otherwise we would not have a rifle with us.

I just stripped it down to the basic statement in that quote. There are many reasons i hunt. But the one reason that does not change among us all is we do it with the intention to kill.

[Muledeerjohn]

Hunting is for me being out there. Being with your close friends your family making the best of times as when tomorrow comes they not be there anymore. So making the best of what you have today not tomorrow is hunting for me.

[steepNdeep]

In my world, The Hunt is a Journey that I enjoy every day of the year!

... from the gear prep, research & scouting TO the magazines, video, dreaming & bs'ing with my partners TO the many miles in the mountains shared with the wildlife. :cool:

I could open my door and kill a buck from my deck in the clover patch, but that is not a hunt to me. The final moment of the kill is the climax of the journey but is not the essence of The Hunt for me. Enjoy the journey...

[ThinAir]

In my world, The Hunt is a Journey that I enjoy every day of the year!

... from the gear prep, research & scouting TO the magazines, video, dreaming & bs'ing with my partners TO the many miles in the mountains shared with the wildlife. :cool:

I could open my door and kill a buck from my deck in the clover patch, but that is not a hunt to me. The final moment of the kill is the climax of the journey but is not the essence of The Hunt for me. Enjoy the journey...



Exactly. The journey is fun enough....sometimes you get the icing too.

[835]

So with all these responses of " I hunt because of everything else"
why arent you all hiking with a camera? there is less work in it!

just some friendly pot sturring!

I cant even awnser my own questions! It is just that there are too many good reasons to hunt. We share most, but the one we all do is we are there to kill. If we dont "Oh well" if we do "Good"

But the "Icing" is why we are there!

[1/2 slam]

My desire is just being out in the wild with nature ,the thrill of the hunt is there alright but if I don't put an animal down the hunt will not be taken away from me.

Lots of times I have called in a fired up bull elk and played with him for sometimes an hour and then suddenly its all over with he has vanished in thin air.

This to me is as good or even better then finishing it off with a kill ,lets face it if every animal you saw that was a keeper for you and you ended shooting each one without any ever getting away from you to me it would not be no challenge..

Very well put Wayne.

[Moose Guide]

my nephew wanted to hunt black bear(I hate hunting black bear)
any how we got one so in that case the kill ruined the hunt!

[bc sportsman]

IMHO the hunt is complete with the successful taking of an animal.

Hunting is a journey. The journey itself, whether successfully completed or not upon each attempt, is a worthwhile and extremely enjoyable experience.

[OutWest]

I can't say it's not about killing at all but I can be just as satisfied with a hunt where nothing is put down as I am when I am fortunate enough to punch a tag. I don't think there is anything better than getting away from buildings, tv's and computers. There is nothing as peaceful as being in the wilderness without a care in the world.

I have to say I agree with 835 in that we all share one common reason for hunting and that is to, at some point make a kill. I also understand that for many, the events that come prior to that point are what get us out there. Whatever your reason, it's never a bad choice to hit the woods!

[steepNdeep]

So with all these responses of " I hunt because of everything else" why arent you all hiking with a camera? there is less work in it!


I do hike with a camera... BUT, I've killed enough critters that I figure it could be my turn, so I hike w/ a gun, too... :wink:

[Gateholio]

The days I hunt without killing, have not been wasted.

[Mr. Dean]

A trip home with an empty box in the back, isn't an unsuccessful hunt.... The hunt isn't over, yet.

[oscar makonka]

Killing something ruins the hunt. It means the hunt is over and a whole lot of work begins. I plan on shooting a monster buck one of these years, if I live long enough, until that happens I'll be out there hunting for it..

[BillyBull]

Well for me.... it started with watching my dad, and his brother and my grandfather plan the annual trip to the blackwater back in the 60's and crying as they drove off in the old fix-me-up ford or chevy my uncle would put together... no snow tires, a wall tent, a coleman stove and grub for the week... as the years have past I have carried on this tradition of getting dad out in the bush. To enjoy the time and the talks and those adventures (like walking back to camp - skunked on the last day - saying well this is a great new area too bad there is no moose... then out of no where this big fella steps out and with a grin as big as you have ever seen we jump to get him) dad yelling can you get him, me saying dad he's yours take em.... and we do it on 3 and the dad gets a great shot off to bring the big fella down. Well, I guess will come back next year and so we have been in 5-3 ever since. The traditions have pass to now include my brother-inlaw and now my son and the adventures are ever exciting with the planning and building of camps and working the area that we continue to explore. These are great times and can be great when the animals are moving through and returning... the chase and walking miles to find that honey hole, coming up over a rise or into a dale to see a herd of moose (yes moose... 15 bulls cows all romping) capping off the adventure is usually "well nice" we got food, how much sausage or pepperoni you want this time - or "well we missed" maybe will have luck with a deer trip or two in 100mile. Having the two younger guys in the team now, means dad and I can sit back a little have them do the grunt work will we instruct (pass on the lore...) dad still does the morning meadow walks but now the trips are closer to camp... and I got him a quad to ride to make the dishes and camp chores more enjoyable. As the sun sets, dad reminds me that about how my grandpa did the chores and that my turn will come but we always keep telling the stories and the traditions and the knowledge continues to be passed to generations that come....
__________________

[bforce750]

Maybe this has been already said,if it has I apologize in advance.It all depends on what you are there for.If you are there for a meat hunt and dont tip one over, I guess that would be an incomplete hunt without A kill.But if you love to be out every second day looking for that once in a lifetime animal, or you are selective,it is very satisfying and successful passing up on a few and letting them live another day.Or for that matter not seeing anything at all is ok too,as long as it doesn't happen too often....lol, thats just my opinion.

[browningboy]

I would rather let someone else take the shot now as I would rather just go for the ride so to speak, I like seeing them, calling them in etc.. but I like seeing others take their animal, it's awesome.