Questions about bears

[TOP_PREDATOR]

I have seen a few photos in hunting mags of guys wearing rubber gloves when skining/butchering bears,i did read something somewhere about people catching "seals finger" when skining bears.Can anyone tell me more about this After reading the thread about wounded animals,does the bears fur soak up a lot of blood when they are shot?? If hit in the chest with 7mm mag 30/06 etc would there be a good blood trail normally.

[CanuckShooter]

Rubber gloves are for sissys...the theory is that they will protect you from infectons, which you can get if you nick yourself...and there are some so called experts that figure you can protect yourself from trignosis etc but if that was your purpose are you going to eat the thing if you think it's full of poison?? So rubbers are for sissys....

A bears fur will not soak up any more blood than most other animals..so a good blood trail would be normal in most cases.

[Marc]

What hapends some times if you shoot a fat bear is the fat will plug the hole and it doesn't bleed out very fast.

[ryanb]

That's not really true. Generally a bear's fat will plug a wound and you won't get much bleeding, unless there is a large exit wound. I don't have a lot of experience with bears, but this is generally what I've heard. The bear I shot last year didn't go far, but the 15 yards or so he covered, there was not a drop of blood. There was so little blood in his fur that I had trouble locating the entrace wounds also.

[ryanb]

Oops, took a while for me to reply there, didn't see Mark's reply. Like he said ;)

[Gateholio]

Rubber gloves are not a bad idea, nothign woring wiht using gloves for cleaning bears. Especially if you already have an existing cut or scrape on your hands, animal blood seems to help it get infected.

That being said, i never use gloves.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I have different opinion than CanuckShooter.
You can get Trichinosis by getting infected bears' blood into an open wound on your hand. A good percentage of bears carry Trich and the older the bear the higher odds he'll carry it. That's why you're supposed to cook bear meat to an internal temp of at least 155 deg F. Saying some people think it's full of poison is a bit simplistic.....

From speaking to guys that have guided bears (and my own opinion) a mortally wounded bear can give a lot less blood trail than a deeer or other hoofed animal. Be it the fur or shifting fat or a combination of the two , they can (but not always) leave suprizing little blood behind.

SSS

[PGKris]

So rubbers are for sissys....


:shock: :shock: :shock:

:mrgreen:

[Elkhound]

That fat sure does plug the hole, that bear I shot with the .338 and I could wiggle my thumb in the exit hole it was so big. No blood trail.

[NEEHAMA]

Rubber gloves are for guy's who don't like trying to wash off their hands in a cold creek leaving hardened fat chunks and blood spots between the fingers.( i guess it's ok as long as you don't go to kfc on the way home).

[Elkhound]

Oh yeah, as the pic in the avatar says.......no gloves.

[MichelD]

From New Zealand:





What is Trichinellosis

Trichinellosis, also called trichinosis, is the disease caused by eating raw or undercooked meat and wild game products infected with the larvae of the Trichinella spiralis worm.
In September 2001 two human cases of trichinellosis occurred in New Zealand in the Coromandel region as a result of eating meat from a domestic pig slaughtered at a farm and butchered by a local butcher. (This is described as homekill under the Animal Products Act. Homekill meat can only be consumed by the farmer / owner, his family, household and employees – it must not be sold or traded).
Symptoms of the disease include fever, nausea, diarrhea, vomiting and abdominal pain. This may be followed by headaches, fever, chills, coughs, aversion to bright light, swollen or puffy eyes, aching muscles and sometimes a rash or skin irritation.
Abdominal symptoms can occur 1-2 days after infection. Further symptoms usually start 2-8 weeks after eating contaminated meat.
How can you become infected with trichinellosis?

Unlike many parasites that depend on a specific host animal, Trichinella spiralis, the trichina worm, infects nearly all orders of mammals, though rats and wild or domestic pigs are the most common hosts. Animals and humans are infected with T. spiralis when they ingest infective larvae (juveniles) in raw or undercooked meat. Animals may also become infected when they eat hosts such as rodents, as part of animal feed.
Trichinella spiralis larvae are released in the stomach and enter the small intestine where they mature into adults and reproduce. These newborn larvae usually enter the bloodstream and are distributed around the body, most eventually ending up in the host's muscles. Here the larvae mature into infective larvae and will pass to the next host when this meat is eaten in a raw or undercooked state. As they penetrate cells the larvae can cause extensive damage and a severe reaction in the host (animal and human).

[Mooseman]

Thank you MichelD, I was just going to say that. And this is what they look like and no you can not see them by eye.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/MoosemanBC/images.jpg

[Foxer]

BTW - the heat necessary to kill tric in wild game is actually 160 degrees F. (71 degrees C)

However - what if your thermometer is a little off? Or if the meat isn't the same temperature thruought? It would be pretty easy to have the meat just barely hot enough in one spot and too cool in another, leaving you exposed.

Therefore most places reccommend you cook to 170 degrees f or 77 degrees C. That way you're introducing a little saftey margin and if one spots' a bit cooler than others, you're likely ok.

So while you're theoretically ok at 160 - it's good to go a little farther and be extra safe.

Another important point, especially for roasts and the like - make sure it's ENTIRELY thawed before cooking. A roast that's still a little frozen in the center or in spots might well read 170 at one spot, but be much lower temp where it had been frozen when it went into the oven.

I like to use a slow cooker - simply because i believe that raising the temp slowly helps make it heat more evenly and safely (and because it really helps make wild game tender). I also tend to butterfly my bear sausages at the end - just to make sure they're thoroughly cooked on the inside.

You don't have to have the meat 'well done' - medium is fine. But definately get it to over 160 just to be on the safe side, and let it sit for a bit so it's at that temperature long enough to do the job, rather than just serving it the moment it hits that temp.

Tric infections are rare, and completely avoidable with some basic precautions. Freezing MAY NOT KILL the wild variant of tric, even for longer periods, but it CAN help (and btw - the more 'infected' the animal the worse the case you'll get - so killing off as much as you can by freezing is good. Just don't rely on it). So freeze your bear as cold as your freezer allows, and try to keep it frozen for a while. As i said - this cannot be trusted as a way to get rid of it - but it can reduce possible tric infestations and that adds to your saftey. Combined with good cooking practice, this can eliminate completely your chances of gettting it.

Smokeing meat may not kill the infeciton, depending on the method.

[Elkhound]

Okay, so when I make some jerky I will finish it off in the oven at 200 for awhile, just to be safe

[Mooseman]

To be 100% save you can have it checked. Send the frozen toung to .............I have to go look up another thread where Thunderstix told me.

There I found it:

"The Department of Land and Agriculture in Abbottsford will do it for you.....free!"

[Stone Sheep Steve]

You're probably right about that temp Foxer:redface: . I was going on what an old timer butcher told me. He said as long as the pink is gone from the meat you are fine. Bear meat sometime has a purplish hue to it so it can be hard to tell. You can be rest assured that if it says 160deg in the publications there is a small room for error on that temp.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

Gloves aren't needed, but are nice to have. They are a nice touch for caping - it's like an extra layer of skin. I wonder if anyone has stats on the numbers of bears that are infected with trich????


I've tracked several bears that have only left a couple drops of blood. They don't leak all that well.

[Foxer]

I was going on what an old timer butcher told me.

Until relatively recently it was believed that 'domestic' tric, like that found in pork, and 'wild' tric were the same species. They're not - wild tric is a little .. er.. trickier. :)

You can kill domestic tric with freezing for example. Wild tric CAN be resistant to temperatures that would have killed domestic stuff for sure. Not always - but freezing isn't the same guarantee it is with pork.

And at 160 your meat should still be just after the pink is gone and the 'juices run clear'.

The 'saftey margin' is why some sites say 'cook to 165', others say 170, some even go so far as 180. But really - as long as you're sure it's 160 or better thru the entire peice of meat and has been for several minutes (i think they say 15?) you're ok. So if you go to 165 and the meat is evenly cooked, you're fine. Just be sure it's even, and if you're not sure go a little hotter or a little longer and be sure.

[3kills]

here is what i got straight from my lecture notes from school on how to deal with meat infected by trich...

heat products to 68 degrees c or 155 degrees f or higher
or freeze to -29 degrees c for a minimum of 6days
or freeze -25 degrees for a minimum of 10 days
use only a ratio of 1 part infected to 3 parts un infected meats 25% usage rate...

the high risks are in uncooked or aiur dry cured products such as...
prosciutto and salamis and stuff like land jagers...
when a trich parisite that is alive is ingested it nests in ur muscles and eats up the muslces and can be fatal...

as long as u get an internal temp of the above temps u will be okay u just gotta make sure u get it from right in the middle and u dont hit any bone if there happens to be a bone in product....

[3kills]

there is virtully to more trich in domestic pigs in canada....

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I wonder if anyone has stats on the numbers of bears that are infected with trich????

GG
Don't know of any official reports on the subject but the "old time" butcher told me it is as high as 95%. True? I don't know.:???:


SSS

[3kills]

i would really doubt its as high as 95%...if it was then u would have more cases of it in humans...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I'm sure you're right 3kills. It is probably related to age-class.... I bet older bears are fairly high in percentages.

SSS

[quadrakid]

i been skinning critters and getting up to my elbows in guts for thirty years,tried using surgical gloves because a fellow hunter threw some in my pack. i really like the gription you get from the gloves. try them out,you might like them and they don,t lead to the wearing of sissy cloths

[Foxer]

heat products to 68 degrees c or 155 degrees f or higher
or freeze to -29 degrees c for a minimum of 6days
or freeze -25 degrees for a minimum of 10 days
use only a ratio of 1 part infected to 3 parts un infected meats 25% usage rate...

That's the domestic pig version. That freezing won't kill tric in bears.

[3kills]

thats in bears too cuz thats how we would handle bear meat at school if we were processing it...u probably will never find trich in pigs anymore its been pretty much eradicate (sp) in pigs....and if u do see it in pigs u will only see in farm raised pigs and they get it from eating the grass that a bear has shit on wich is the same trich that the bear would have...

[Foxer]

thats in bears too cuz thats how we would handle bear meat at school if we were processing it

Could have been old info then, i don't know. There's quite a bit of information out there in medical studies on both sides of the border, and we now know that freezing won't kill the tric found in wild game like bears.

I know tric in pigs is all but gone, but of course the wild variant lives on. You won't kill it by freezing it as you suggested.

[CanuckShooter]

Rubber gloves are not a bad idea, nothign woring wiht using gloves for cleaning bears. Especially if you already have an existing cut or scrape on your hands, animal blood seems to help it get infected.

That being said, i never use gloves.

Just carry a small bottle of that hand sanitizer, use it and you won't get those nasty little infections around cuts / scratches from dressing.

PGKRIS>>rubbers are the first mistake...next comes spandex....it's like a mad compulsion...take it from an old 'hart boy'...rubbers are for sissys!!

[3kills]

Could have been old info then, i don't know. There's quite a bit of information out there in medical studies on both sides of the border, and we now know that freezing won't kill the tric found in wild game like bears.

I know tric in pigs is all but gone, but of course the wild variant lives on. You won't kill it by freezing it as you suggested.

i dont know our info is update yearly at school...from what i was told is dont freeze it at home cuz ur home freezer isnt going to hit the temps that u need to kill it...i can ask more in class...

[BCLongshot]

Too funny. I wear rubber gloves and I'm no sissy.

[Hunter's Dad]

Guided bears for the last 10 years, talked with many guides and taxidermists. I recommend wearing gloves with all critters there are allot of things that we can get(ie blood poisoning). Bears are just animals that get into everything. Why take the risks. The info I've gathered has been from pro's that live this stuff 365 days a year.

I'm OK with being called a sissy, I've watched Broke Back Mountain from begining to end ( OK I FF'd through certain scenes). And I still am OK with with hunting and fishing trips with my budds... I hope.

[johnes50]

I keep a pair of XL dishwashing gloves in my pack and some surgical gloves. Keeps your hands clean and makes the knife less slippery. John

[death-junky]

what are your searous???? ive guted alot of bears and never used rubber gloves...
ttyal
Riley

[Foxer]

ive guted alot of bears and never used rubber gloves...

I've lived on my own a lot too - never had a fire.

Doesn't make insurance a "bad" idea :)

It only takes once for you to really regret not taking a few precations. It never hurts, that's for sure. Who hasn't nicked themselves cleaning an animal?

[Elkhound]

I know I have posted this before, but 2yrs ago my buddy and I were gutting an elk. He knicked himself on the hand. I had problems even seeing the cut. by the end of the pack out, his hand was numb. The end of the night his arm was going numb and his hand started to swell, by the time we got to the hospital his hand was almost twice the size. After some tests they learned it was a very bad ecoli infection, was on an IV for 3 days to clear it up. He wears gloves now, I am going to start I think, however, it's not hard to cut through a latex glove with the knives we all use for gutting. But it will protect the places we already have cuts on.

[Fred]

Like you Elkhound, I used to have a friend who capped himself a rockchuck and while skinning it he cut himself. Talk about an infection and that was just from getting R/C blood into his system! :shock: Fred

[Jagermeister]

What's that adage? An ounce of prevention is worth more that a pound of cure. I'll use the gloves in future.

[elkster]

I do first aid and emergency response with people and wear latex gloves at all times. If you think I'm going to cut up a wild animal without protecting myself, think again. Call me what you want, I won't even give you mouth to mouth unless I know you personally, or I have a mask to protect me. You may think its silly, but portect yourself first and foremost.

[huntwriter]

I always wear rubber gloves for field dressing, and have been called a "sissy".

I always wear a safety belt when cimbing into my treestand, and have been called a "sissy".

Unfortunately. One of my hunting partners lost two fingers that had to be amputated. While gutting a deer he got blood poisonoing but he was not a sissy so he tried to cure it himself until it was to late. Just two years ago another hunting partner died of a heart attack after a long and painful two years in and out of hospitals. He fell only six feet to the ground while he climbed into the treestand and slipped off the wet tree ladder. The fall broke his back.

These two guys paid a very high price for not wanting to be sissies. Now they and their families plus their friends suffer. Being a "macho" can come with a very high price tag on it.

I am glad to be a sissy, it keeps me healthy and alive. ;)

[3kills]

I know I have posted this before, but 2yrs ago my buddy and I were gutting an elk. He knicked himself on the hand. I had problems even seeing the cut. by the end of the pack out, his hand was numb. The end of the night his arm was going numb and his hand started to swell, by the time we got to the hospital his hand was almost twice the size. After some tests they learned it was a very bad ecoli infection, was on an IV for 3 days to clear it up. He wears gloves now, I am going to start I think, however, it's not hard to cut through a latex glove with the knives we all use for gutting. But it will protect the places we already have cuts on.

for like 20 bucks u can by knife resistint gloves taht u can wear under ur rubber gloves....

[Fred]

3K are those the "chainmail" type of gloves? If so where would one find them? Fred

[huntwriter]

for like 20 bucks u can by knife resistint gloves taht u can wear under ur rubber gloves....

These are made of Kevlar or metal mesh, you can buy them in any meat cutter supply store such as Stuffers here in B.C.

They are very good but you need to get a bit used to them as they are quit stiff. Also very important to prevent accidents is to work with a razor sharp knife and always cut away from your body and fingers. Most cutting accident come from blunt knives as you have to use force to cut with it, this in turn will make the knive "jump".

[huntwriter]

3K are those the "chainmail" type of gloves? If so where would one find them? Fred

Stuffers (http://www.stuffers.com/) in Langley.

[Elkhound]

Are these the same type used by fisherman alot?

[Fred]

IIRC, similar but better.
Thanks HW. Fred

[johnes50]

what are your searous???? ive guted alot of bears and never used rubber gloves...
ttyal
Riley


Hey, I know where my hands have been and I don't want to contaminated the meat.:grin: You are cutting up your families dinner. John

[3kills]

u can get the chainmill ones but i was thinkin more of the other type i believe they are the kevlar ones that huntwriter was talkin about...chainmill gloves are alot more expensive....and u can get the from stuffers or house of knives carry them and probably any other kitchen and knife store....like huntwriter said blunt knives are way worse like he said they can jump they take more force to cut with and its also harder on ur body to use a dull knife...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

what are your searous???? ive guted alot of bears and never used rubber gloves...
ttyal
Riley
Yes, and I've had unprotected sex before when I was single:shock: . Never died but that doesn't mean it was a smart idea. Sometimes ignorance is NOT so bliss............

SSS

[Fred]

u can get the chainmill ones but i was thinkin more of the other type i believe they are the kevlar ones that huntwriter was talkin about...chainmill gloves are alot more expensive....and u can get the from stuffers or house of knives carry them and probably any other kitchen and knife store....like huntwriter said blunt knives are way worse like he said they can jump they take more force to cut with and its also harder on ur body to use a dull knife...

Thamks 3K, I am pretty much out of touch with the current stuff available. I will have to look into these things. They should work well for me even when I am just doing salvage work! You wouldn't believe all the little nicks and cuts lately!:shock: Fred

[GoatGuy]

Yes, and I've had unprotected sex before when I was single:shock: . Never died but that doesn't mean it was a smart idea. Sometimes ignorance is NOT so bliss............

SSS


WOAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What happens in the bush stays in the bush --- no need to hear about your tales about brokeback mountain Stone sh*t Steve. :frown: :frown:

[Franko Manini]

Until relatively recently it was believed that 'domestic' tric, like that found in pork, and 'wild' tric were the same species. They're not - wild tric is a little .. er.. trickier. :)

You can kill domestic tric with freezing for example. Wild tric CAN be resistant to temperatures that would have killed domestic stuff for sure. Not always - but freezing isn't the same guarantee it is with pork.

And at 160 your meat should still be just after the pink is gone and the 'juices run clear'.

The 'saftey margin' is why some sites say 'cook to 165', others say 170, some even go so far as 180. But really - as long as you're sure it's 160 or better thru the entire peice of meat and has been for several minutes (i think they say 15?) you're ok. So if you go to 165 and the meat is evenly cooked, you're fine. Just be sure it's even, and if you're not sure go a little hotter or a little longer and be sure.

Hey guys,

Trichnosis is a parasite, not a disease, and therefore is difficult to treat. Fortunately it is self limiting and the infection will usually resolve on its own. There is no difference between "domestic" and "wild" species. It is all Trichnosis spiralis. Parasites are more difficult to treat in humans because they don't have the kind of "biological targets" that bacteria have. For the vast majority of cases, there are no symptoms at all, and the body is effective at fighting the infection.

Treatment usually consists of a course of bendazole based drugs (Thiabendazole is common) supported by corticosteroids and asprin for the muscle pains. Even then, the treatment only addresses the worms, not the larvae. The tactic is to kill the worms as they emerge and prevent them from completing the lifecycle. Therefore the infection can persist for a long time and be quite uncomfortable in some severe cases.

In severe cases (like if you were immunocomprimised), T. spiralis can infect tissues of the heart, lungs, and brain. Even then, it's rarely fatal. There are about 50 cases per year in North America, and no fatalities have been recorded for decades.

In my experience, about 50% of black bears carry the parasite. It can often be found in the armpits of the bear after you skin it out. Once the meat cools, the Trich worms will start to migrate out of the meat and move to the surface, where they can be visible. Bears that are eating salmon, or carrion (dead stuff) are MUCH MORE LIKELY to carry the paratsite. Bears that are eating grass or berries will be a better bet if you're looking for the meat. All garbage bears should be avoided.

Freezing in a chest freezer designed for home use is a reliable method of killing the worms, but it is NOT effective at killing the cysts. The worms can be killed by freezing at -15C for a couple of weeks, a typicak temperature for a chest freezer. The cysts can be thought of as "eggs" or "seeds" and are MUCH more resistant to changes in environmental factors. Freezing will not destroy the cysts, and they can and will reinfect new hosts. Salting, curing, dehydrating, or smoking will all address the larvae and worms, but will not manage the cysts. The ONLY reliable way of killing the cysts is to heat kill them by cooking the meat to a minimum of 144F (62C). I would highly recommend that you exceed these temperatures by at least 15% and hold the meat at that temperature for a good 10-15 minutes to be safe.

So, wear the gloves. It's easier to clean up, and an extra measure of protection.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

WOAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What happens in the bush stays in the bush --- no need to hear about your tales about brokeback mountain Stone sh*t Steve.

Actually, G/G I wasn't referring to "our little secret". I told you that I wouldn't tell a sole and I've kept that promise, but really who could blame us?? We were both young, cold and scared and there was nothing between us but two pair of stinky polypropelene long underware:eek:. It does bring back some fond memories though. My favorite is us riding bareback along the beach in Cabo but it's time to move forward. I'm married with chilren now and I can't be yours. You'll just have to accept that................. :eek: :grin: :grin: !!

SSS

[Elkhound]

Actually, G/G I wasn't referring to "our little secret". I told you that I wouldn't tell a sole and I've kept that promise, but really who could blame us?? We were both young, cold and scared and there was nothing between us but two pair of stinky polypropelene long underware:eek:. It does bring back some fond memories though. My favorite is us riding bareback along the beach in Cabo but it's time to move forward. I'm married with chilren now and I can't be yours. You'll just have to accept that................. !!

SSS
Hee hee :shock:

[Mr. Dean]

Actually, G/G I wasn't referring to "our little secret". I told you that I wouldn't tell a sole and I've kept that promise, but really who could blame us?? We were both young, cold and scared and there was nothing between us but two pair of stinky polypropelene long underware:eek:. It does bring back some fond memories though. My favorite is us riding bareback along the beach in Cabo but it's time to move forward. I'm married with chilren now and I can't be yours. You'll just have to accept that.................!!

SSS
Can you say............FUN SAVER MOMENT!!!
We all make mistakes.
But some will never learn.
Not that theres ANYTHING wrong with that....:roll:

[Gateholio]

I don't go up that mountina for the hunting!!:-P

[Silent Wolf]

I wear Medic rubber gloves for gutting all my game, the rancher up at my cabin told me about a trapper that got a blood infection from a wolf. He had to stick a needle in his gutt everyday for a bit to kill what he had.

I find if it is cold out the gloves give you a bit of warmth over not wearing them. Deer blood is good for the hands but really I could go with out. I don't care if people want to call me a sissy. To date I haven't cut myself with gloves on, before I did it all the time.

The animals that are at higher risk of blood infections are Preditor animals, i.e Bear, Wolves, Yottee and coguars.

Deer Moose and Elk less of a risk.


SW:grin: :shock:

[GoatGuy]

HHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! Glad to see there's still a bit of humour around these parts. :grin:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

HHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! Glad to see there's still a bit of humour around these parts. :grin:

You're in denial. Pretending it never happenned will not allow you to heal properly. You'd better get some therapy............:p :p

SSS

[Elkhound]

I wasn't there but just reading about it makes me need therapy:shock:

[Foxer]

I wasn't there but just reading about it makes me need therapy

Pretty much what I was thinking too..

[3kills]

to many guys are hunting on brokeback mountain :eek:

[Hunter's Dad]

I think the guys that don't where gloves quit reading this thread a long time ago! Matbe there's something there they are avoiding... like an old shirt in the closet.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I think the guys that don't where gloves quit reading this thread a long time ago! Matbe there's something there they are avoiding... like an old shirt in the closet.

Did you mean "Shirt" or "Skirt"?:roll:
Hell, even the Village People claimed to be "Macho Men"!:wink:
Aren't most of them dead now??:shock:
SSS

[Walksalot]

My trapper buddy wears gloves when skinning his animals. I wear gloves when I have them with me or can find the bloody things in my pack.