Deer "Jumping the String"

[Lorne]

I was just watching a video the other day and was amazed at how many deer jumped the string and droped after hearing the arrow being released. every deer droped to some extent. I guess it depends on how nervious it is. Has anyone had any experice with this? It is probably wise to aim for the heart that way when or if it ducks you have a good shot. I have heard lots of stories about people shooting inbetween the lungs and spine and the dear gets away or someone shoots them later and finds scars.

[bigshooter]

Traded the old bow in for a new hoyt maxxis 31 for this reason. Deer will feel it before the hear it.

[houndogger]

Ya I had that problem when I used trainin wheels on my bow! Switched to longbow and never had a problem since:tongue:

[Kirby]

Do the math on jumping the string it doesn't work out if you've got a "modern" bow.

Kirby

[Slinky Pickle]

Do the math on jumping the string it doesn't work out if you've got a "modern" bow.

Kirby

The speed of sound is 1125 fps. Even with a "modern" bow, the sound will get there well before your arrow does.

If you assume a 40 yard shot and 300 fps arrow speed....

Time for sound to reach animal
(40 X 3) / 1125 = .107 seconds

Time for arrow to reach animal
(40 X 3) / 320 = .400 seconds

.400 - .107 = .293 seconds (animals time to respond)

At a little over a quarter of a second that's plenty of time for a wiley critter to flinch. He won't always get out of the way but doing what you can to reduce noise still sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

If you base it on the animal actually seeing the arrow release then in this example he has a full .400 seconds to "get outa Dodge". (I didn't do the math on the speed of light because I figured 982 million fps might work out pretty close to zero seconds.)

Wow, how the hell do deer ever die?????? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I don't have enough experience to know whether it is or isn't an issue.... I just thought I'd do the math.

[huntwriter]

Lorne - It is very common for deer to jump the string. As Slinky Pickle pointed out, no matter how fast the bow is, sound will always arrive before the arrow even at short distances.

This is the reason why I always aim for the heart, if the deer drops I still get a good double lung shot. There is a space of about three inches between lung and spine with nothing but air. Hit a deer there and it will survive.

A relaxed deer jumps less than an alert deer, but they still jump the string. The best chances to lessen the risk is to take close shots, my preference is around 15 yards and never more than 25 yards. Make your bow as quiet as possible. A good start is to use heavier arrows, all my arrows are over 450 grain. A heavier arrow absorbs a lot of the vibrations that cause noise.

Install Limb-Savers dampeners on the bow limbs and the strings or any other product that absorbs vibrations. The lighter the bow setup is and the faster the bow the more noise becomes an issue. Any additional gadget you add to the bow, like a arrow quiver is a potential noise maker. I take my arrow quiver off the bow as soon I am in the stand. If you leave the quiver on the bow only load it with three arrows. You do not need more, even two arrows will do.

[Jetboater]

Lorne - It is very common for deer to jump the string. As Slinky Pickle pointed out, no matter how fast the bow is, sound will always arrive before the arrow even at short distances.

This is the reason why I always aim for the heart, if the deer drops I still get a good double lung shot. There is a space of about three inches between lung and spine with nothing but air. Hit a deer there and it will survive.

A relaxed deer jumps less than an alert deer, but they still jump the string. The best chances to lessen the risk is to take close shots, my preference is around 15 yards and never more than 25 yards. Make your bow as quiet as possible. A good start is to use heavier arrows, all my arrows are over 450 grain. A heavier arrow absorbs a lot of the vibrations that cause noise.

Install Limb-Savers dampeners on the bow limbs and the strings or any other product that absorbs vibrations. The lighter the bow setup is and the faster the bow the more noise becomes an issue. Any additional gadget you add to the bow, like a arrow quiver is a potential noise maker. I take my arrow quiver off the bow as soon I am in the stand. If you leave the quiver on the bow only load it with three arrows. You do not need more, even two arrows will do.

No offense Huntwriter but I call BS... dont shoot for the heart... aim for the lungs... to far forward and you hit the front leg.... as for the gap between the lungs and the spine... tell yourself that space is there all you want but in reality its a good excuse for a poor shot....
I have shot 29 deer with the bow and have yet to see one visibly jump the string... aim for where you want the arrow to go... not where you expect the animal to move...
guys you are over worrying little things... get out and shoot as many good shots a day practicing and that is all you can do...as for taking longer shots dont worry about the deer dropping....just put it where you want it... pick the smallest spot on the deer side and hit it....

[jessbennett]

i would really recommend taking more than 2 arrows out into the field with you at any given time, and thats just personally.

if you have a quiver that holds 4or 5 arrows, fill it up, make sure it is silent when you shoot it. all it takes is some time and tinkering to get it quiet if it is noisy. theres lots of ideas out there to make them quiet. but really dont shortchange yourself on arrows in the field as it has been previously suggested.
ALSO, if you do stand hunt, or plan on "still" hunting, and you do want to remove your quiver from your bow, be sure to sight your bow in with the quiver OFF of the bow. if you sight it in when the quiver is on, then remove it for hunting, your point of impact will be off.

practice shooting your bow with your hunting gear on it. your favorite jacket and gloves for the particular time of year in which your hunting. shoot your outfitted bow lots. find all your little "buzzes" and rattles before the season. then you have nothing to worry about and will enjoy your time in the field more.

with todays bows on the market, you can get the best of both worlds, with speed, and quietness without sacrificing accuracy. you dont need a 500 grain arrow to keep your bow quiet, and practice out to 30 or 40 yards. its good to be confident out there.

and lastly, even though it does "occasionally" happen, mule deer are far less likely to jump the string as opposed to whitetail deer. whitetails can be craftly lil buggers. thats for sure. they can duck an arrow, they can jump OVER an arrow. dont worry about shooting low, or shooting high, just be confident and put it in the boiler room and it will go down.

enjoy the "archery obsession", and good luck

[Bow Walker]

Lorne - I'd be willing to bet that those videos you were watching were of hunts in the States, and they'd be after Whitetail down there. Very skittish animal, super wary and very prone to "jumping the string". The hunting pressure on the WT deer is enormous in the "Excited States".

When you have your bow all outfitted for the hunt - quiver full of arrows and all - hold it by the grip and take your other hand and make a fist. Now take the fist and bring it down on the bow like a gavel or hammer, using the soft pad on the little finger part of the fist.

Give the bow a good 'sock' and if there are any vibrating or loose parts you should be able to hear them rattle. Hunt the noisy parts down and tighten them up.

I've shot a few deer here on the Island, both early and late season, and if they were standing still, they haven't flinched or jumped the string at all. The only thing that happened was that a walking deer took a half-step after I stopped it with a grunt - just as I released the arrow. I hit one lung and part of the liver. The deer took off like a scared rabbit and went about 150 yards before going down for good.

Other than that, all the others went down within 30 yards - without any noticeable string jump at all.

A good point of aim is fight in the "crook" of the front leg bone - as illustrated below
. That way you're sure to hit the vitals and get a quick kill.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/deer_anatomy.jpg

Front 1/3 of the body, and 1/3 the way up from the bottom - inline with the front leg (if he's standing properly). A good rule of thumb to remember. After that, get tight and right behind the shoulder.

See the way the front leg bone is sharply angled towards the head? Creates quite the sweet spot for a quick kill.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Most animals "Jump the string" while they are looking at the the shooter ... Remenber a Deers anotomy is not like Humans ... we can only look in the direction of our nose ... while Deer etc are not like a Lizard with independant eyes ... they have more of the side ways vision than Humans do ... dont rely upon where his nose is pointed ... most are "jumping the string" when they see a visual cue ... like the arrow with super brite fletching leave the bow (or nowadays Lite nocks)

Now that said even when the deer is looking 180 degrees away ... check his ears before you shoot ... if they are pointed anywhere than directly at you ... you are good to go ...even so at 40 yards ... the animal wont hear your bow go off .... most will "Jump the string" at around 25 yards mostly due to visual cues rather than sound.
I make these claimed based upon what I have seen in the feild Hunting, scouting and just being outside .... I have seen deer "jump the string" at several birds that they didnt expect to be there ....

the Term "Jumping the string" in my eyes was made up by some American that put a bad shot on a critter on a Vid or story that he was tellin ... and now its an excuse for a poor shot

[Kirby]

Time for sound to reach animal
(40 X 3) / 1125 = .107 seconds

Time for arrow to reach animal
(40 X 3) / 320 = .400 seconds

.400 - .107 = .293 seconds (animals time to respond)

At a little over a quarter of a second that's plenty of time for a wiley critter to flinch. He won't always get out of the way but doing what you can to reduce noise still sounds like a pretty good idea to me.


The problem is the animal drops away from the string, it cannot move faster than gravity can move it this is D = (iV * t) + (1/2a * t2) where t2 is time squared. iV is 0 so remove it.

1/2A * T2 = 1/2(9.8) * .293(.293) = .4m that means that at 40 yards if the animal reacts INSTANTANEOUSLY it can drop 16". Now if you figure in the fact that two things must happen, one the deer must hear the sound, and then react to the sound it is physically impossible for it to react instantaeously.

Humans(albiet slower have an average reaction time around .200) now take a highly trained individual at the peak of his reaction ability you are looking at a late teens early 20's individual with a reaction time of .160 for auditory reaction (http://biology.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm)

There is a limit to how fast a reaction can occur based purely on the biology of how impulses are sent. cut the reaction time of the human to 2/3 and you have a reaction time of .12 seconds. Now, you have a lapse time of sound being .293-.120, time of drop is now .173

4.9 * .173(.173) = .14m = .48 feet = 5.8" I have never shot a deer that had a chest less than 16'' deep. aim for the center of the deer and he drops 6'' your still gonna hit'em in the vitals.

Kirby

[mntbowhunter]

Wow Kirby! I still have trouble with my times tables. You are one edjumacuated SOB! Thanks for the exlaination thats pretty cool.

[proguide66]

Buddy of mine from alabama sent me this last Nov after hunting here in Sept....they figure it 'would have' made top 10 4X4's ever shot .....:shock:
Maybe those damned tree stands give you too much 'buildup' time..his reaction says it all...:lol:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkHhCSj0MUU

[killman]

Wow Kirby! I still have trouble with my times tables. You are one edjumacuated SOB! Thanks for the exlaination thats pretty cool.


LOL that is exactly what I was thinking. Damn now my brain hurts:mrgreen:

[Bow Walker]

:confused: :confused: Thanks Kirby - I think. :-?

Now I gotta go out with a measuring tape, a calculator (scientific type), a huge note pad, a bundle of pencils, and a large bottle of aspirin just to test, evaluate, and confirm your findings.

I wouldn't want jess to be all over me, ya know...:wink: :mrgreen:

[huntwriter]

No offense Huntwriter but I call BS... dont shoot for the heart... aim for the lungs... to far forward and you hit the front leg.... as for the gap between the lungs and the spine... tell yourself that space is there all you want but in reality its a good excuse for a poor shot....
I have shot 29 deer with the bow and have yet to see one visibly jump the string... aim for where you want the arrow to go... not where you expect the animal to move...
guys you are over worrying little things... get out and shoot as many good shots a day practicing and that is all you can do...as for taking longer shots dont worry about the deer dropping....just put it where you want it... pick the smallest spot on the deer side and hit it....

25 years bowhunting and 382 deer, non of them lost, all aimed for the heart right behind the elbow. It seems the "BS" worked just fine for me. When I guided and outfitted I told all my clients. "In my camp you aim low 2 inch over the brisket, right behind the elbow." the "BS" has worked. Of the 168 that had a shot opportunity 167 killed the deer, one missed completely shooting over the back because he wasn't compensating for threestand height. Having said that I might add that I hunt only from treestands which is a bit different then hunting from the ground with straight on shots.

But it's no problem you do what works for you I do what works for me.

As for the gab between the spine and lungs. have a look at this picture (http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.science-art.com/gallery/58/58_6272003234051_small.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.science-art.com/search_main.asp%3Fpage%3D1%26pp%3D64%26b1%3Dand%26 m%3Dmedia1-%26b2%3Dand%26c%3Dctg1-%26b3%3Dand%26s1%3Dsubj3-%26b4%3Dand%26s2%3Dsubj2-%26b5%3Dand%26s3%3Dsubj23-%26v%3Dimages&usg=__QoFe9LunIYQLpjDQCVvVW1XPsGM=&h=108&w=108&sz=4&hl=en&start=25&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=7AyN9bVTZwCyqM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=85&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddeer%2Banatomy%26start%3D20%26um%3D1% 26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1). (I do not post pictures on forums to which I do not outright own the copyright.)

BowWalker is right about whitetails, they are very jumpy, especially where they are subjected to heavy hunting pressure, which almost anywhere in the U.S.A.

[Bow Walker]

See where the heart is in the pic that I posted in reply #9? Aim for the heart. If the deer drops because he either hears you or sees you then you're almost sure to get the lungs.

Can't go wrong aiming at the heart.

[huntwriter]

See where the heart is in the pic that I posted in reply #9? Aim for the heart. If the deer drops because he either hears you or sees you then you're almost sure to get the lungs.

Can't go wrong aiming at the heart.

There you go. Thanks! If the deer ducks you still get a double lung shot. Aim for the lungs, deer ducks and arrow flies over the back.

Here is a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFSijTocXVg) that shows in slow motion just how fast and how low a deer can duck in a split second. Archer aimed for the lungs.

[Hydrojet]

not to start trouble.....but what happens when the deer jumps.....which would mean pushing in the opposite direction of gravity so that the "a" for acceleration in kirbys equation changes and I am assuming iV is for initial velocity. If the deer can jump at a force greater than 9 m/s^2 (which I haven't seen studied for a number but to jump like they do I am assuming a difference of at least 10-12 m/s^2 as the over all acceleration in the direction of movement has to be greater than 9 to over come the effect of gravity and then some to get some air) and isn't perfectly still at the time of release you could see that 5.8" push 7" and the point of impact move down or down and forward/back which would put the arrow in leg or miss territory. Now I am no means a bow hunter and with a rifle I have only seen deer duck, look or go flop. Wouldn't it be best to still worry about the flinch due to the string noise? Or do the deer always duck?.....sorry as soon as someone brings out the physics I get excited.... hey Huntwriter....does that picture come any bigger....all I can see is a brown looking thing with horns

[Hydrojet]

That video of HW shows a 250 fps arrow so it is slower than slinky's calculation and would push Kirby and my numbers out even more.....The biggest thing I ever encountered was trying to increase my accuracy of my University labs and in the end the good ol' human error was always large enough to negate any other error and give a error probability large enough so my data and findings were within spec......We may be splitting hairs here boys and the little shake from the extra coffee that morning caused an error that would negate the rest of the effort!

[jessbennett]

25 years bowhunting and 382 deer, non of them lost, all aimed for the heart right behind the elbow. It seems the "BS" worked just fine for me. When I guided and outfitted I told all my clients. "In my camp you aim low 2 inch over the brisket, right behind the elbow." the "BS" has worked. Of the 168 that had a shot opportunity 167 killed the deer, one missed completely shooting over the back because he wasn't compensating for threestand height. Having said that I might add that I hunt only from treestands which is a bit different then hunting from the ground with straight on shots.

But it's no problem you do what works for you I do what works for me.

As for the gab between the spine and lungs. have a look at this picture (http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.science-art.com/gallery/58/58_6272003234051_small.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.science-art.com/search_main.asp%3Fpage%3D1%26pp%3D64%26b1%3Dand%26 m%3Dmedia1-%26b2%3Dand%26c%3Dctg1-%26b3%3Dand%26s1%3Dsubj3-%26b4%3Dand%26s2%3Dsubj2-%26b5%3Dand%26s3%3Dsubj23-%26v%3Dimages&usg=__QoFe9LunIYQLpjDQCVvVW1XPsGM=&h=108&w=108&sz=4&hl=en&start=25&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=7AyN9bVTZwCyqM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=85&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddeer%2Banatomy%26start%3D20%26um%3D1% 26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26ndsp%3D20%26tbs%3Disch:1). (I do not post pictures on forums to which I do not outright own the copyright.)

BowWalker is right about whitetails, they are very jumpy, especially where they are subjected to heavy hunting pressure, which almost anywhere in the U.S.A.


just a little while ago you posted that you have bowhunted for"almost 20 years"......... now in 30 days or so, its 25 years???:neutral:382 deer huh?you averaged around 16 deer a year, yourself?wow!!!! thats some amazing and unbelievable statistics. and seriously........ out of 168 hunters only 1 of your clients didnt harvest an animal????? thats some amazing statistics for a guide. especially bowhunters.were you the outfitter and had your own territory?

[Slinky Pickle]

not to start trouble.....but what happens when the deer jumps.....which would mean pushing in the opposite direction of gravity so that the "a" for acceleration in kirbys equation changes and I am assuming iV is for initial velocity.

In order to jump you have to push off. As humans we have to bend at the knees so that we are able to spring up using our leg muscles. Unless you have uber toes, it's pretty much impossible to jump from a standing position without crouching and pushing upward. Deer are no different. They have to crouch before they can push off and jump. To make a long story short.... they have to go down before they can go up.

[jessbennett]

In order to jump you have to push off. As humans we have to bend at the knees so that we are able to spring up using our leg muscles. Unless you have uber toes, it's pretty much impossible to jump from a standing position without crouching and pushing upward. Deer are no different. They have to crouch before they can push off and jump. To make a long story short.... they have to go down before they can go up.


well....... it has happened to me before...... can i explain it? no..... but that deer went straight up. i tried the whole" aim low" idea and it cost me a 150 class whitetail..... i wasnt happy. :mrgreen:... the bow was basically silent, and pushing 330 fps at 30 yds.... that bugger went 6 feet straight up........

[Hydrojet]

In order to jump you have to push off. As humans we have to bend at the knees so that we are able to spring up using our leg muscles. Unless you have uber toes, it's pretty much impossible to jump from a standing position without crouching and pushing upward. Deer are no different. They have to crouch before they can push off and jump. To make a long story short.... they have to go down before they can go up.

The biggest 32 point buck you have ever seen (please sense the sarcasm) is feeding....front is hunched to feed so....locked and loaded!?...deer don't have toes :mrgreen: and the jumping power comes from the front shoulders more so than the leg joint (ie straight legged jump)...just watch a deer bound or hop....legs are mostly straight!

[huntwriter]

the Term "Jumping the string" in my eyes was made up by some American that put a bad shot on a critter on a Vid or story that he was tellin ... and now its an excuse for a poor shot

No it's not a made up story, but it has to do with the hunters. Deer are survival experts, that means they learn fast. Deer in most American states east of the Mississippi are very heavily hunted and in most of these states almost everybody is a bowhunter because they have a much longer bow season then here, some states have a four month bow season with a 3 or 5 day break for guns. Over generations deer have learned to identify the sound of a bow and learned to duck. Most anywhere else deer react to spooking noises by jumping straight up in the air and, or to the side but not where they are hunted almost exclusively with bows.

Here is something else deer have learned from hunters east of the Mississippi that you will not readily observe anywhere else. Looking up to the treetops for danger. When they are spooked the first thing they do is look up into the treetops. Over 90% of the hunters east of the Mississippi hunt from treestands. I never observed that behaviour in the western region of America or here. Because treestands are not that widely used here.

[Slinky Pickle]

Huh... I guess since they walk on already bent legs, they can just push off at pretty much any point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjD3WHofbsw

[huntwriter]

Huh... I guess since they walk on already bent legs, they can just push off at pretty much any point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjD3WHofbsw

You got that right. The "bent legs" are like springs under tension. This way a deer can jump apparently effortless from a standing position. Whereas a human with "straight legs" has to bend the legs first to put tension onto the muscles and then put the weight onto his toes to do the same. Deer already walk on the toes and the bend in their hind legs is the actual heel.

Here is a skeletal comparison chart of human and animal hind legs.
http://members.shaw.ca/masterbutcher/meat_cutting_tutorial/skeletal%20charts/legskcom.gif
It's a pigs leg but deer have the same bone structure.

[Eagle1]

WOW, you guys way over analyse everything, just go shoot the dam animal and eat it, I do.
If you stand down range and off to one side, behind a tree so you can't see your buddy shoot, guess what, with all the parallel limb bows, string dampners and such you won't hear the bow, what you will hear is the arrow, wind over the fletching, it's loud, give it a try , you'll be surprised. Just be careful.
my $0.2

[Lorne]

I havn't shot many deer with my bow, but i wonder if you stop them with a grunt or whistle would they jump more? I have wread someplace that usually when they hear the first sound they will stop and then if the hear another they will bolt. I think Bow walker and others definatly have the right idea for aiming for the heart. It may verywell be different in the states from up here and from whitetails to Muley's but it definatly happens to some extent. But literally every deer in the video when you looked at the slow mo droped to some extent. It would be hard to tell out in the feild though when you are shooting if they drop. These animals are pretty amazing there is way more that goes into making a perfect shot than what you would expect. has anyone had any trouble with Muleys ducking?

[Big Lew]

Gotta agree with "Bowzone Mikey", if the deer is fairly close, and is not only looking at you, but has his ears pointed toward you, there's a chance he might jump at the noise or flash of your shot. Nor so much if he's further away. I make it a practice not to shoot when they're close, keyed to go, and have their ears and eyes honed in on me.....I will wait until they turn their head. I have shot many deer at 30 to 47 yards while still hunting, both mulies and whitetail, and not one of them have jumped before the arrow hit them. My bow is pushing 285 fps. at 20 yards, so it is not ultra fast. I also hunt with 4 extra arrows on a 2-piece quiver which doesn't make any appreciable noise. I used to use a one-piece and it vibrated. I've had people stand by to listen and they say all they hear is the slight thump of the release.

[Bow Walker]

Haven't come across a 'spring-loaded' mulie or blacktail yet, but that doesn't mean that they aren't out there!

I've shot (and killed) all of my deer, except one, when they were standing still and presenting a near broadside shot to me. Most of them were also looking in my direction because I had just grunted to try and stop them. It works.

In all my years of bowhunting (15) I've only ever taken 5 animals. Does that make me an expert? Hell no! It just makes me want to get out there and practice some more. I'm definitely a rookie when it comes to bowhunting - I've just got a big mouth and 'keyboard courage'.

I get so excited at the critical moment that it's hard to concentrate and remember every little detail that is necessary to make even an adequate kill-shot let alone a good one.

[greybark]

:-D The term "Jumping The String" is a misnomer . They (WT in particular) like humans start an instintive jump they must first squat down to begin that jump . With compound bows (a while ago) the sharp and I would guess high frequency bow noise I expierienced several WT react to the bow noise . Their instinctive crouch at the beginning of the jump is fortunetily timed as to be below the arriving arrow . Generaly speaking they Duck and not Jump the Bow Noise , only the use of feathers create an incoming noise ( the banana cut being the loudest) .
:-D With a Trad bow it was slightly different . The Bow`s less intense noise caused several mature WT Bucks to SPIN on their back feet to go back to their safe route . The speed of the turn was not as fast as the above crouch but fast enough for the arrow to pass by as the deer was around 90 degrees into his SPIN .
:wink: Four of my friends were standing by their truck and noticed a youg WT buck walking by . The younger Bowhunter was urged to shoot and at the sound of the Bow Noise the Buck while instantly crouching slipped in the snow and went down on his gut . The yougster missed him .:-D
Cheers

PS , I have always aimed for the center of the LUNGS . To aim at the Heart not only reduces your target put places it as to come in line with the leg bone and that makes no sence .

[BimmerBob]

It seems the "BS" worked just fine for me.

Seems to be still working oh humble huntwriter... :wink:

[jessbennett]

Seems to be still working oh humble huntwriter... :wink:


"SNAP''!!!!!!!:lol::eek:

[Jetboater]

its funny how self proclaimed hunting gurus have never posted a picture of themselves with a bow shot deer....

[wetcoasthunter]

25 years bowhunting and 382 deer...

Avg. 15 deer per year!! And how many did you take with a rifle or muzzleloader, another 300+? Suprising with all those animals you don't have a single picture posted of one, not even on your own website. For someone that promotes himself like you do it might be time to start coming up with some proof to your claims/stories. But then again, you are a "writer" so it could just be your vivid imagination.

[Bow Walker]

....PS , I have always aimed for the center of the LUNGS . To aim at the Heart not only reduces your target put places it as to come in line with the leg bone and that makes no sence .
While the heart may be a small target to aim for, the saying that comes to mind is "Aim small, miss small". There is some merit to aiming small.

On the other hand (in the "over-thinking" vein, thanks Bill :-|) the placement of the heart is such that it is very easy to either miss by passing under, or to hit the leg/arm bone instead of the vitals.:(

Most - if not all - of the hunters that I know will aim 1/3 up and 1/3 back. This point of aim will result in some tasty meals. :wink:

[Bow Walker]

As to vivid imaginations, self-proclaimed gurus, and being the opposite of humble...the term legend-in-his-own-mind immediately pops into my mind.

On the other hand there have been some pretty good tidbits of info offered.

[jessbennett]

its funny how self proclaimed hunting gurus have never posted a picture of themselves with a bow shot deer....

was curious about this myself.....:confused:. you might have to wait till 2012....:mrgreen:.but you would think that with 382 deer being killed, there might be at least a few pics on his website? other than 4 ducks..... and tiny rainbows......:???:oh and 167 out of 168 kills as a guide? u would think that with all these animals harvested that there would be lots of pics of trophies? that arent domesticated goats?

[huntwriter]

"No offense sir, I couldn't care less how many big deer you have hanging on your wall. If I want you to kill a big deer I can arrange that for you by tomorrow morning. What I would like to know is.
Can you write?
Do you know how to move in front of a camera?
Can you represent my products at a trade show?
Can you go into a store and promote my products?
Are you loyal?
Do you mind working long hours and be away from home for months on a stretch?"

That was the answer one of my sponsors gave to a hopeful rattling down a long list of big bucks he killed and trophy bass he caught.

The people visiting my website do not come to look at trophy pictures, they come to see what knowledge I have to offer. I advertise knowledge not pictures. I am about helping hunters to become better and more successful not about "look here the big buck I shot." Most of the industry people actually appreciate that and so do many hunters that come to look for advice or to book one of my services.

Now that I explained I hope that this thread can go back on track. I find this pointless interruptions that are made here very disrespectful to the original poster.

[jessbennett]

"No offense sir, I couldn't care less how many big deer you have hanging on your wall. If I want you to kill a big deer I can arrange that for you by tomorrow morning. What I would like to know is.
Can you write?
Do you know how to move in front of a camera?
Can you represent my products at a trade show?
Can you go into a store and promote my products?
Are you loyal?
Do you mind working long hours and be away from home for months on a stretch?"

That was the answer one of my sponsors gave to a hopeful rattling down a long list of big bucks he killed and trophy bass he caught.

The people visiting my website do not come to look at trophy pictures, they come to see what knowledge I have to offer. I advertise knowledge not pictures. I am about helping hunters to become better and more successful not about "look here the big buck I shot." Most of the industry people actually appreciate that and so do many hunters that come to look for advice or to book one of my services.

Now that I explained I hope that this thread can go back on track. I find this pointless interruptions that are made here very disrespectful to the original poster.


huh????:confused::-|... im not really sure what you explained here?

[greybark]

:-D Stick to the Thread and stay Classy , there will always be someone with a bigger bladder then yours .:-D

[Jetboater]

SO.... you dont have any pictures... of the 300 deer you have killed????when I search products or services I look for proof in the pudding... look at primos calls like a thousand dead animals... makes me wanna buy a call... look at wayne carlton... lots of pictures of deadSHAt... makes me wanna listen to his seminars... look at BCRAMS... even he posts pics of dead stuff... and great is a tight lipped bugger... but here we ask for a money where your mouth is and Nothing... not even a flat head... I am sorry if I am off track but give me a break... I pay attention to people who put bone on the ground... not talk about it....

[Bow Walker]

:-D ....there will always be someone with a bigger bladder then yours .:-D
THE rule to remember when you're in a pissin' contest! :-D :wink: :-D

Wisw and sage advice indeed greybark.

[jessbennett]

THE rule to remember when you're in a pissin' contest! :-D :wink: :-D

Wisw and sage advice indeed greybark.


this is one topic i dont need pictures of..........:mrgreen:

[Bow Walker]

Theatre of the mind jess, theatre of the mind.

[rollingrock]

I think string jumping is a type of muscle memory developed over time after you get shot at for too many times. I watched a video on youtube and couldn't believe the jump a whitetail made. That's just not normal. :D

[jessbennett]

Theatre of the mind jess, theatre of the mind.

say no to the imax jess.......... say no to the imax...........and no i dont want the 3d glasses.........:|:mrgreen:

[Sneaky Snake]

"No offense sir, I couldn't care less how many big deer you have hanging on your wall. If I want you to kill a big deer I can arrange that for you by tomorrow morning. What I would like to know is.
Can you write?
Do you know how to move in front of a camera?
Can you represent my products at a trade show?
Can you go into a store and promote my products?
Are you loyal?
Do you mind working long hours and be away from home for months on a stretch?"

That was the answer one of my sponsors gave to a hopeful rattling down a long list of big bucks he killed and trophy bass he caught.

The people visiting my website do not come to look at trophy pictures, they come to see what knowledge I have to offer. I advertise knowledge not pictures. I am about helping hunters to become better and more successful not about "look here the big buck I shot." Most of the industry people actually appreciate that and so do many hunters that come to look for advice or to book one of my services.

Now that I explained I hope that this thread can go back on track. I find this pointless interruptions that are made here very disrespectful to the original poster.


I think if was going to buy some "knowledge" I would like to see some pictures to back it up!! Sometimes the proof is in the pudding.

[huntwriter]

I think string jumping is a type of muscle memory developed over time after you get shot at for too many times.

You got it right. The deer learned to "jump the string". It does not come natural by instinct.

[huntwriter]

I think if was going to buy some "knowledge" I would like to see some pictures to back it up!! Sometimes the proof is in the pudding. That is what I thought too when I started in the outdoor industry many years ago. But to tell you the truth, A sure way to piss a sponsor or a magazine editor off is to send them a lot of trophy pictures. It's different if a company wants a trophy with the smiling hunter printed on a product. But as my sponsors say. "If we need for you to shoot a big buck we can arrange that by tomorrow." You see shooting a big buck is no big deal, anybody can do that. But not everybody can represent a company or a product and make it look good and that is what the companies are interested in first and foremost. What good is a big buck to them if the person stinks and can't sell anything, is rude to people, can't write an article or give a seminar, or stand up to ten hours without break in a trade show booth smiling and shaking hands.

The same is with hunting magazines. I get a dozen or more assignments each year to write a big buck story for somebody else that shot a big buck but can't write. To make a living in the outdoor industry you got to have knowledge and know what you're talking about and that is what you have to promote. Trophy bucks, unless it is a world record, will not make you last in this industry.

[greybark]

:-DHey Rollingrock and HW , Your post indicates these deer learn to jump the string after having arrows launched at them .
:confused: How come then so many Deer that have never heard the sound of a Bow will jump the string ?
Your premise does not make sence .
Cheers

[Jetboater]

No offence huntwriter but I all total Bull$hit... I have worked in the hunting and fishing industry all my life an bottom line is it doesnt matter what you rep, its what you put on the ground using the company you represents produt to kill animals.... nothing else... its what you kill with the products you sell that matters.... nothing else... you can pound on your chest all you want but I think your full of BS....show us one buck that you have killed with your bow and you in the picture and I might believe you but trust me ...before I read an article of you bowhunting I will have a hard time passing the obituaries...because that will be more interesting... proof is in the pics....if anybody can shoot a big buck lets see some pics... Iknow a lot of hunters who have never shot a big buck....dont tell mus what it takes to make it as a writer because I will sureley choose my magazines to read if it has a BS story from you in it... everyone can write what is the ideal set-up for deer... but not everyone practices what they preach....ONE PICTURE is all we need ...I am sure you have lots left out of your book, we can not read a book with 300 pictures in it....so there has to be one or two that are not in the book... NO????

I am sure the people of eastmans journal or bowhunting magazine never want to see pictures of their writers with monster bucks...I mean why would they want their writers to kill bucks??? it might make them credible sources....

[huntwriter]

:-DHey Rollingrock and HW , Your post indicates these deer learn to jump the string after having arrows launched at them .
:confused: How come then so many Deer that have never heard the sound of a Bow will jump the string ?
Your premise does not make sence .
Cheers

Deer learn, as most animals do, not from doing or experience, but by being taught. A doe "teaches" her offspring what to look out for and what sounds to pay close attention too. Short example, not every deer. knows what a tree stand is, but in areas where hunters use predominantly tree stands ALL deer look to the tree tops for danger. They learned it from others.

Animal behaviour and how animals learn is a fascinating topic. Figuring out the how, what and why is part of my profession as an animal behaviourist.

[greybark]

:-D OK HW . How does a Doe who never had an arrow launched at her teach her offspring. (pun intended). Heck it has nothing to do with the bow noise as ANY similiar noise will trigger this EVASIVE action . IT IS A NATURAL REACTION that has been refined through evolution long before the Bow was invented with the higher strung deer surviving

[Big Lew]

I've been reading some of the comments on this thread about "proof needed with pictures." I have been hunting since I was 14 and can't remember taking any pictures of animals I've shot except a small 4-point mulie shot with a bow posted a couple of years ago after someone asked for pictures. Over the years, the most consistant numbers I can recall are 31 deer (blacktail, mulies, and whitetail from 4-points to does) with a rifle, and 13 with a bow, 4 moose, and 2 black bear. For some hunters, it's quite a few, but with many others, it's not a lot. I've never felt that I had to prove to someone that what I state is fact, but then again, none of my friends or relatives would suggest I was fibbing. For those that doubt me because I don't take pictures, maybe you would think otherwise if you actually knew me, or my friends and family.

[Ambush]

Sitting in a treestand last October in Alberta, I watched several yearling whitetail bucks come through. Several times the wired little buggers would suddenly crouch and scan the area furtively. They would go from relaxed to full alert and back to relaxed very regularly. I have a short vid somewhere of one of them. I had one duck the arrow at 26 yards for a clean miss over his back. These deer hadn't lived through a hunting season yet and the area is not hunted heavily by bow hunters. They are just a wound-tight spring waiting for something to set them off.

The buck I did shoot was very slightly quartering towards me at 27 yards. By the time the arrow got there, he had dropped and turned more towards me. The arrow went in just in front of his front leg and came out of the rear ham on the opposite side. Basicly full length of the deer.

If you want to see how much some animals can move in that split second, just rent some of the videos that show it in slow motion.

[Bow Walker]

You got it right. The deer learned to "jump the string". It does not come natural by instinct.
Have to disagree with you on this point.


Sitting in a treestand last October in Alberta, I watched several yearling whitetail bucks come through. Several times the wired little buggers would suddenly crouch and scan the area furtively. They would go from relaxed to full alert and back to relaxed very regularly. I have a short vid somewhere of one of them. I had one duck the arrow at 26 yards for a clean miss over his back. These deer hadn't lived through a hunting season yet and the area is not hunted heavily by bow hunters. They are just a wound-tight spring waiting for something to set them off.

The buck I did shoot was very slightly quartering towards me at 27 yards. By the time the arrow got there, he had dropped and turned more towards me. The arrow went in just in front of his front leg and came out of the rear ham on the opposite side. Basicly full length of the deer.

If you want to see how much some animals can move in that split second, just rent some of the videos that show it in slow motion.

Yup. It is an instinct in the animals that they are born with. Most call it the "Fight or Flight Reflex"

Humans have it (still, after a long, long time of civilization)...have you ever jumped at a sudden sound? Have your muscles twitched (like you want to fight or run) when someone sneaks up and scares you?

It's an instinct that all animals have to some extent. Some more so than others.

Sneak up on your dog or cat and pop a balloon when they aren't expecting it. Then get out of the way!

[Jetboater]

I've been reading some of the comments on this thread about "proof needed with pictures." I have been hunting since I was 14 and can't remember taking any pictures of animals I've shot except a small 4-point mulie shot with a bow posted a couple of years ago after someone asked for pictures. Over the years, the most consistant numbers I can recall are 31 deer (blacktail, mulies, and whitetail from 4-points to does) with a rifle, and 13 with a bow, 4 moose, and 2 black bear. For some hunters, it's quite a few, but with many others, it's not a lot. I've never felt that I had to prove to someone that what I state is fact, but then again, none of my friends or relatives would suggest I was fibbing. For those that doubt me because I don't take pictures, maybe you would think otherwise if you actually knew me, or my friends and family.
if you came on here pounding your chest that you might just be the greatest hunter to ever live in merritt I might ask for a pic or two but hey, youve only shot maybe 60 animals... not 300... LMAO

[huntwriter]

:-D OK HW . How does a Doe who never had an arrow launched at her teach her offspring. (pun intended). Heck it has nothing to do with the bow noise as ANY similiar noise will trigger this EVASIVE action . IT IS A NATURAL REACTION that has been refined through evolution long before the Bow was invented with the higher strung deer surviving

We know today that animals pass knowledge on to their offspring. Konrad Lorenz, the forefather of modern animal behaviour study, has proven 40 years ago that animals learn and that instinct plays a very little role in an animals development and survival.

A deer does not necessarily have to be shot at to gain experience and learn from it. The deer is perfectly able to learn by observation. For example if a deer sees another deer react to a stimuli it will learn form the behaviour of the other deer it also will learn from another deers "misfortune". The knowledger gained will then be passed on to other deer and offspring through various means including demonstration of a certain action or move.

As I mentioned in another post in America, mainly Midwest, East and the South, where most hunters hunt from treestands the deer have learned over generations to look up to the treetops for danger. I've never observed this behaviour here in BC that deer come down a trail ever so often stopping to scan the treetops. On that same note so far I've never seen a deer here in BC duck to the ground when they hear the arrow being released. Yet in the Misdwest and Southern part of the USA where they have very long bow seasons I've never seen a deer that does not duck at the moment it hears that very distinct sound. Deer have learned that when they duck down that chances of not getting hit a greater then if they just jumped to the side as they normally do elsewhere. Again. To learn this a deer does not need to have been shot at, they learn from observation of others.

You're right that animals, and humans for that matter, have an inbuilt natural evasive reaction mechanism, but in addition to that they can learn to modify that reaction to suit special circumstances, such as an arrow flying at them. Deer rarely if ever get attacked from above so their is no "natural reaction" to danger from above. This means that ducking the arrow and looking up at tree tops had be learned and passed on from on to the next generation. After working with and studying animals for many years in my profession as animal behaviourist I can assure that animals are lot smarter than we normally give them credit for.

[Fixit]

all the deer ive seen have never jumped the gun....

i give props to you bow hunters, waaay too much work for me

[huntwriter]

if you came on here pounding your chest that you might just be the greatest hunter to ever live in merritt I might ask for a pic or two but hey, youve only shot maybe 60 animals... not 300... LMAO

You seem like jessebenett, reading things that have never been said. Never not once did I make any claims to that or any similar effect.

[huntwriter]

all the deer ive seen have never jumped the gun....

i give props to you bow hunters, waaay too much work for me

The advantage of gun hunting.They had no time. The bullet is to fast.:-D

[greybark]

We know today that animals pass knowledge on to their offspring. Konrad Lorenz, the forefather of modern animal behaviour study, has proven 40 years ago that animals learn and that instinct plays a very little role in an animals development and survival.

A deer does not necessarily have to be shot at to gain experience and learn from it. The deer is perfectly able to learn by observation. For example if a deer sees another deer react to a stimuli it will learn form the behaviour of the other deer it also will learn from another deers "misfortune". The knowledger gained will then be passed on to other deer and offspring through various means including demonstration of a certain action or move.

As I mentioned in another post in America, mainly Midwest, East and the South, where most hunters hunt from treestands the deer have learned over generations to look up to the treetops for danger. I've never observed this behaviour here in BC that deer come down a trail ever so often stopping to scan the treetops. On that same note so far I've never seen a deer here in BC duck to the ground when they hear the arrow being released. Yet in the Misdwest and Southern part of the USA where they have very long bow seasons I've never seen a deer that does not duck at the moment it hears that very distinct sound. Deer have learned that when they duck down that chances of not getting hit a greater then if they just jumped to the side as they normally do elsewhere. Again. To learn this a deer does not need to have been shot at, they learn from observation of others.

You're right that animals, and humans for that matter, have an inbuilt natural evasive reaction mechanism, but in addition to that they can learn to modify that reaction to suit special circumstances, such as an arrow flying at them. Deer rarely if ever get attacked from above so their is no "natural reaction" to danger from above. This means that ducking the arrow and looking up at tree tops had be learned and passed on from on to the next generation. After working with and studying animals for many years in my profession as animal behaviourist I can assure that animals are lot smarter than we normally give them credit for.

Hey HW , That is a lot of stickhandling and verbage to swing around your point . I do however admire your enthusiasim and dedication.

[urbanhermit]

too bad the does dont teach the fawns to stay off the highway, saw another victim tonight..

[J_T]

Yup, if they can jump the string, why can't they jump a vehicle?

MOST ungulates jump the string to some extent. I'm convinced it's not a learned experience from being shot at. That would suggest the first time an arrow was flung at them, they didn't flinch. That would end their life and the learned behaviour would not be passed on.

If you hunt ungulates with a bow in BC, and you fling, you've experienced them dropping or turning away at the sound of the release. It might just be a noise in your shoulder as you ready to release, but something puts them on alert and they avoid the shot.

I've had every kind of ungulate jump the string.

Solution: Aim low. (the last thing you say to yourself before release)

[jessbennett]

You seem like jessebenett, reading things that have never been said. Never not once did I make any claims to that or any similar effect.


so exactly what part has never been said? if your talking about deer kills, you yourself said that you have killed 382 deer with a bow. also i believe in the same post you stated that as a"guide outfitter" you put 168 people on deer and only ONE missed. remember? oh yes and of those 382 deer you stated that you harvested with a bow, all were recovered.

and yes jetboater seems to have something in common with me..... the ability to sense b.s. :wink:

[BimmerBob]

In response to this by Jetboater:


if you came on here pounding your chest that you might just be the greatest hunter to ever live in merritt I might ask for a pic or two but hey, youve only shot maybe 60 animals... not 300... LMAO

The ever so humble Huntwriter responded:


You seem like jessebenett, reading things that have never been said. Never not once did I make any claims to that or any similar effect.

To which I have to say "Well.... really?"

As I review the following posts by Othmar the great...

Huntwriter on his experience:

Posted - July 7, 2010

25 years bowhunting and 382 deer, non of them lost, all aimed for the heart right behind the elbow. It seems the "BS" worked just fine for me. When I guided and outfitted I told all my clients. "In my camp you aim low 2 inch over the brisket, right behind the elbow." the "BS" has worked.

Posted - July 4, 2010

So do I. I may have a slight advantage in my experiences simply because I had the opportunity to try many different broadheads given to me to field test and I had the opportunity to take part in deer management cull hunts. Over the years I have killed hundreds of deer on such hunts. Noting that I am particularly proud of but it had to be done by someone and it has given me a lot of shooting experience with various equipment. In addition to that I write meticulously notes for many years about by experiences. Reading these notes back over years one can see certain trends develop, be that equipment use or any other aspect of hunting, like deer movement patterns and such. For me hunting has always been as much about hunting as it has been about studying every tiny aspect of it in great detail.

Posted - July 4, 2010

Shooting deer, hundreds of them on managed cull hunts over the span of 20 years. The scientific tests were done in a controlled environment on pig carcasses and filmed with special cameras.
On real live deer, not oil drums, cinder blocks and other objects that have no basis in reality other than advertising purpose.(clipped for brevity)

No not really because it's about knowing how nerves react to different stimuli and how the brain registers pain. What to you think hurts more (damages more nerves) cutting yourself with a blunt object or with a razor sharp knife? If you ever have cut yourself with a razor blade you will know that it doesn't hurt but the bleeding is hard to stop. Conversely if you cut yourself with a blunt knife it will hurt considerably but bleed very little. The reason for that is because a blunt object registers more trauma. The brains reaction to that is to shut blood flow down to that area and release chemicals to aid blood clotting. On the other hand if the brain does not register trauma, or very little, it will take to measures to stop the bleeding.

Sorry Huntwriter you failed to pay attention in that simple discussion, blood flow at the injury site is controlled by the cells at the local site, it is their automatic reaction to the injury, the brains pain response has nothing to do with it until it creates a lack of blood to critical organs. The brains sensation of the pain is all a relative thing, every person responds differently to what could be considered the "same" injury, pain control in hospital situations has demonstrated the phenomena quite clearly and thus the development of medication supply options that let patients medicate themselves within safe parameters. We can assume animals will be similar but it, to my knowledge, has not been proven.

Posted - April 25, 2010

PM me with pictures I could use a few mule deer, whitetail and elk antlers for demonstration at our C.O.R.E. course.

You would think with hundreds of animals down and a whitetail specialist you would have a few antlers laying around for your job as a C.O.R.E. instructor? That would be a reasonable expectation would it not?

Huntwriter on his years bowhunting:

Posted - March 2, 2010

However, as I found out 20 years ago when I started. Bowhunting is very different from archery.

Posted - February 22, 2010

In all the years, over 20, I shoot aluminum arrows I maybe had 10 arrows bend. I keep hearing these horror stories about aluminum but personally just have never had these experiences. I don't do target or 3-D shooting. I just kill deer and turkeys with my bow and for that aluminum has never let me down.

Posted - February 17, 2010

Never get hung up on a brand. In my 25+ years of bowhunting I have shot just about every available broadhead and with a few exeptions they all perfomed flawlessly. Having said all that I still prefer and use Magnus one pice cut to the tip 125 grain broasdheads or the Thunderheads 125 grain. But thats just me, don't pay any attention to it.:-D

Hmmmm, something does not seem to add up here, must have been a typo!:confused: as from February to March Huntwriter actually lost 5 years experience in the Bowhunting field.

Huntwriter on someone elses experience:

Posted - July 8, 2010

"No offense sir, I couldn't care less how many big deer you have hanging on your wall. If I want you to kill a big deer I can arrange that for you by tomorrow morning. What I would like to know is.
Can you write?
Do you know how to move in front of a camera?
Can you represent my products at a trade show?
Can you go into a store and promote my products?
Are you loyal?
Do you mind working long hours and be away from home for months on a stretch?"

That was the answer one of my sponsors gave to a hopeful rattling down a long list of big bucks he killed and trophy bass he caught.

The people visiting my website do not come to look at trophy pictures, they come to see what knowledge I have to offer. I advertise knowledge not pictures. I am about helping hunters to become better and more successful not about "look here the big buck I shot." Most of the industry people actually appreciate that and so do many hunters that come to look for advice or to book one of my services.

It's a hunting site, of course monster bucks count unless of course it is just a matter of stringing words together, I am a bit confused on this but heck I am just an old fart and while I do not have hundreds of animals down like the greats, I never kept any trophies either so don't have much to show except the pounds on my body from my meatatarian hobby...

Huntwriter eluding to his abilities:

Posted - July 8, 2010

To make a living in the outdoor industry you got to have knowledge and know what you're talking about and that is what you have to promote.

That makes sense but some of the promotion seems to be a little off and when people ask, you seem to get into a hissyfit and resort to obfuscation rather than backing up your claims with facts.

Huntwriter on his profession:

Posted - July 8, 2010

Animal behaviour and how animals learn is a fascinating topic. Figuring out the how, what and why is part of my profession as an animal behaviourist.

Posted - December 19, 2009

You think a degree in zoology would be be sufficient to figure out the physical structure of an animal, like a bison?

I note that you have a degree in Zoology, care to tell us where you completed your undergraduate (and graduate?) studies as I see no references to them on your web site and somehow this does not seem congruent with your normal postings... It would seem a B.Sc. in Zoology would be more important to a credentialist than say being a C.O.R.E. Instructor or Gun Club Executive?


Huntwriter "congratulating" others?

Posted - July 3, 2010

I thought a few faces on images in Tag Tales look familiar. Congratualtions to you all. On page 11 and continue is my article "The Four Factors Of Deer Movement". It is the first article I wrote specifically for BC Outdoors and there are a lot more to follow in the future on whitetail deer and turkey hunting.

A HBC member and aspiring outdoor writer has his first contribution, an excellent written article about sheep hunting, on page 18 and continue.

That HBC member and I also write regular hunting columns on the BC Outdoors Magazine Hunting Blogs.

Huntwriter on (who else?) Huntwriter:

Posted - June 29, 2010

A little birdy told me today that one of my outdoor newspaper columns has been considered for a writers award. This news turned an otherwise shitty day into a very good day.:-D It seems there are still a few people that can appreciate good outdoor writing.:-D

This (http://www.othmarvohringer.com/articles/Ducks_Unlimited_Wings_over_Canada.html) is the column in question.


Posted - June 9, 2010

Even as a hunter I have done more than the majority on this website in the protection of our heritage.

Posted - April 21, 2010

Here is a hint for you. You cannot build a respected reputation in the outdoor industry and keep it for decades with BS.:wink:

Here is a hint for you, you can't write about how respected you are, THAT is for others to decide, just because you say you are respected does not make it so. I am sure some (great number?) have respect but come on, this is akin to patting yourself on the back and I am sure you will find some people offended by it, especially in this country.

Looking forward to hearing your reasoned reply, cheers!

[urbanhermit]

I think the thread should be renamed from "Deer jumping the string" to "Reputation jumping the shark".

[jessbennett]

I think the thread should be renamed from "Deer jumping the string" to "Reputation jumping the shark".

i dont care who you are..... thats funny &H!T right there.......:mrgreen: amen larry the cable guy....

[Bow Walker]

This would be the place for Huntwriter to "legally" toot his own horn....

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=52654

Calling all bow hunters!

[jessbennett]

This would be the place for Huntwriter to "legally" toot his own horn....

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=52654

Calling all bow hunters!


yes but how does one state years of experience that fluctuates up and down more than the canadian dollar????:?

[Bigbear]

I find This whole Thread quite amusing. To have Knowledge on a Subject, and to Teach or to express to Others Persons their knowledge, there has to be experience, an or education on the subjects discussed.

When Looking for a Job an Employer requires, Qualifications, Education and experience in the Field of expertise ,and Proof of education and experience thru previous employers.

I worked for BC Rail for 33 Years, 86 to 2005 as an Engineer. I took 3 Months schooling Then 7 Months on the job Training. There was a Program where 6 People were taught the whole program thru book Learning because there some that felt the whole training and experience program wasn't needed. When put on an Engine those six people were pulled out of the seat within the first 10 Min of the practical of the Trial. Point, they Needed actual experience for the job. to Put them out on the Job with out proof that they could do it would have been disastrous.

Chuck Adams is A writer, , Dwight Shue, Fred Eicler, Jim Shockey. all the same, Look at the Proof their portfolios.

I won't go on with any more analogys, I think i made the just of my point.
to make big claims is fine , Proof would be nice, but we all some times stretch the truth a little.

I Have shoot a few not many but few White Tails , Mulies with a Bow. some did crouch, 1 did jump up, and a couple just stood there. If some one comes up Quietly behind you , and Claps their hands, you automatic reaction is to duck, or move away from the noise. My mother didn't teach me to do that, or repeated experience. Even a Baby , if a loud Noise is made that baby will startle or flinch. Its Automatic . It is born in . not taught.

We are all Outdoors persons( being political correct) some diehard, some weekend warriors. It is Our way of life . With all the Anties out there trying to do away with our way of life, and trying to discredit us, I think we should concentrate on that More.
Just my humble Opinion.

[CanuckShooter]

Just like a bunch of chickens in the farmyard!!:mrgreen:


BTW, not all deer behaviour is learned, some is/some isn't, it's what they call genetic memory.

[J_T]

Just like a bunch of chickens in the farmyard!!:mrgreen:


BTW, not all deer behaviour is learned, some is/some isn't, it's what they call genetic memory. Yup, I've never been shot at, but I'm pretty sure if I thought I was being shot at, my instinct would be to duck. Not sit up and look around.

[Kirby]

You got it right. The deer learned to "jump the string". It does not come natural by instinct.

I don't think so.

Biologically that makes no sense to "learn" something that fast and have it spread throughout a population. It cannot be passed laterally through a generation and so it would have to be taught to youngsters, the only way for a deer to teach that would be to get shot at...

Reality is its just an instinct to run. To start running they need to load their legs, to load their legs they drop.

Kirby

[proguide66]

wow , what a thread,:lol: Sadly this past time also creates 'pissing contests' from people who are looking for some kind of respect or recognition and thinking there might be some kind of unspoken contest to see's who 'the best' er 'most knowledgable'.....tried it all , shooting big numbers or shooting big racks DOESNT change who we are or grow us any 'length'..impossible..
wouldnt calling out someone on their accomplishments( or BS) and getting blatantly upset about it make yourself an equal partisipant in the ego peeing contest? would that not be kinda embarrasin to be in the same boat??..and make it obvious that you would be er might be upset at the thought of someone killing more than 4 times the number of game you have??.....
bottom line , who cares....will NEVER make a difference in our lives what someone has er hasnt shot er caught..
I'm all about the sharin and lookin a cool pics , reading awesome stories...tryin to win the 'I'm cool contest' from killin shit aint gonna get you anywhere.....
:mrgreen:

ps , I shot FOUR hundred deers with my bow in 30 years...:lol:..beat THAT suckas!!!...haha

[timberhunter]

WOW, you guys way over analyse everything, just go shoot the dam animal and eat it, I do.


Ok here is me admitting on a PUBLIC FORUM. That I Marc S. am in total agreement with Bill S.

Thats gotta be a first :wink: hehe. Hows it going anyways Bill.

Now how do I go about getting the last ten minutes of my life back that I just wasted reading this thread.:confused:

[Big Lew]

if you came on here pounding your chest that you might just be the greatest hunter to ever live in merritt I might ask for a pic or two but hey, youve only shot maybe 60 animals... not 300... LMAO
"Jetboater", I can see your point, and I appreciate your answer. I definitely don't consider myself a great hunter, but I do have a lot of accumulated knowledge and experience picked up from others, some on this site, and from my father and grandfather, as well as trial and error, mostly error. I participate on this site to gain more knowledge, and to share whatever I can offer. Since I've taken up bowhunting, I've really enjoyed my hunting experiences, but, because I've never been a trophy hunter, I've never bothered with pictures although I really enjoy seeing pictures from successful hunters on this site. Maybe, I, too, should start taking pictures. As for "jumping the string", it's not happened to me only because I read similiar posts on archery forums and thus my comment about not shooting if the animal is honed onto me.

[rollingrock]

I haven't shot a deer with my bow yet. But the reactions deer made upon a coming arrow or the sound of slapping string I've seen are from youtube. So are we talking about deer ducking or string jumping? Or both are the same thing? I'd say ducking is an instinctive move deer would make, just like a cat would do the same thing. But to say a matrix stunt jump/flipping move came straight out of instinct is heard to believe.:D

[greybark]

:-d Here Is One That Did Not jump The String :-d


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_0060_-_Copy.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=19699)

[Caribou_lou]

I'm all about the sharin and lookin a cool pics , reading awesome stories...tryin to win the 'I'm cool contest' from killin shit aint gonna get you anywhere.....



Couldn't have put it better myself.

[greybark]

Heres another one that didnt jump the string !!!!


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMG2.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=19700&size=big&cat=500)

[Bow Walker]

rollingrock, it's a self-preservation reflex that is hard wired into wild animal genes. They are born with it and it is honed by watching and learning the responses of their parents to danger stimuli .

Their survival instincts are so highly developed that a reaction to any sort of perceived danger is virtually instantaneous.

This instinctive reaction is commonly called the "Fight or Flight" instinct. Some animals - mainly prey animals - have the "Flight" instinct so highly developed that they are always a half a heartbeat away from instantaneous - well, flight or running away before they are even aware that they are running.

Other animals - mainly predators - have the "Fight" instinct as a primary reaction. Just surprise a Grizz, or a Tiger and see if they don't instinctively rip you a new A-hole before asking any questions.

Also I think that the term "jumping the string" came into being as a catch-all phrase for what the animal (in these cases, deer) does as a reaction to the perceived danger signal(s) - be it jumping, ducking, flinching, a quick 180, or what ever else they may do to avoid the danger.

Now I'm definitely NOT a scientist nor am I considered an Animal Behaviourist by any stretch of the imagination. The above statements are only my opinion and conclusions, after doing a lot of talking, reading and just paying attention.

[Bow Walker]

greybark - very nice buck you got there! Even if it was a while back. Very nice.

I was wondering when - or IF - you were going to post up a pic or two. Thanks for letting me put a face to the name and threads.

[jessbennett]

:-d Here Is One That Did Not The String :-d


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_0060_-_Copy.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=19699)


HOLY CRAP!!!!!!! ITS THE NUGE!!!!!!!!! :lol:J/K

[Caribou_lou]

I thought it was Nugent?

[Bow Walker]

Only took just over 1100 posts for a pic of the grey one! :mrgreen:



















:redface: I better be careful - my hair (although it turned prematurely, I swear) is closer to white than it is to grey. :roll:

[jessbennett]

I thought it was Nugent?


uncanny resemblence to the nuge!!!!!!!:mrgreen: loks like he has a "stranglehold" on that bucks ear......:lol:

[jessbennett]

and that is a beauty buck by the way greybark!!!!!! mucho nice.....

[heyblast]

If you have PVR and have recorded hunting shows doing archery hunting try slow motion on the shot. I did and in some you can see the arrow and the deers reaction. I think it was Canada in The Rough that I watched were the arrow went over the deer because he croutched before he jumped and also was able to see the arrow when released on Michigan Outdoors.

[Jagermeister]

If you trained your puppy to bark to go whiz and poop outdoors,
.............You're an animal behavourist.

If your wife trained you to lift the lid before you go whiz,
................She's an animal behavourist!


Deer are only reacting to the noise of the release, snap a stick and you will get the same reaction. Animals do learn things, but that is by repetative re-enforcement.

[rollingrock]

rollingrock, it's a self-preservation reflex that is hard wired into wild animal genes. They are born with it and it is honed by watching and learning the responses of their parents to danger stimuli .

Their survival instincts are so highly developed that a reaction to any sort of perceived danger is virtually instantaneous.

This instinctive reaction is commonly called the "Fight or Flight" instinct. Some animals - mainly prey animals - have the "Flight" instinct so highly developed that they are always a half a heartbeat away from instantaneous - well, flight or running away before they are even aware that they are running.

Other animals - mainly predators - have the "Fight" instinct as a primary reaction. Just surprise a Grizz, or a Tiger and see if they don't instinctively rip you a new A-hole before asking any questions.

Also I think that the term "jumping the string" came into being as a catch-all phrase for what the animal (in these cases, deer) does as a reaction to the perceived danger signal(s) - be it jumping, ducking, flinching, a quick 180, or what ever else they may do to avoid the danger.

Now I'm definitely NOT a scientist nor am I considered an Animal Behaviourist by any stretch of the imagination. The above statements are only my opinion and conclusions, after doing a lot of talking, reading and just paying attention.


I guess that's what it is. Thanks Dan. So I'll definitely aim a bit lower when go deer hunting.

[rollingrock]

:-d Here Is One That Did Not jump The String :-d


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_0060_-_Copy.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=19699)
Holy! But I guess that's not a Chilliwach WT, is it? :D

[timberhunter]

I remember talking to an old time bowhunter at Rendal creek one time during out TBBC hunt. :wink:

That fellow has forgotten more about hunting whitetails than most would learn in 3 lifetimes. And he was very willing to share a little knowledge with new whitetail hunters.

Gave me some savy advice. And he shoots big bucks like that one.

Funny how it is that those that do take their share of animals and quality ones at that. Never feel the need to brag. Nice buck Ken and I'm sure you have many more.

Hey Dan I fugure Larry and Ron would still range find and use their binos on that big ladybug, what do you think. :)

[BimmerBob]

Awesome buck Greybark! Simply awesome and I love the pose with the recurve in the background, wow! Thanks for sharing.

[greybark]

:-D Hey Timberhnter , I remember you in the Rendell Ck cabin with Bud .Thanks for the kind words and look forward to shooting a 3-d with you in the future . Got some new areas near Rendell and your welcome .
Cheers

[greybark]

:-DThanks all for the kind words , But that GIANT FRASER VALLEY SLUG was harvest of a lifetime . It is the pending world record and entered in th H&G Record Book .
:wink: Their instinctive fear of a size 12 boot is well known and the trick was to stalk them on your knees with your feet behind out of sight behind you .

[Bow Walker]

I remember talking to an old time bowhunter at Rendal creek one time during out TBBC hunt.

That fellow has forgotten more about hunting whitetails than most would learn in 3 lifetimes. And he was very willing to share a little knowledge with new whitetail hunters.

Gave me some savy advice. And he shoots big bucks like that one.

Funny how it is that those that do take their share of animals and quality ones at that. Never feel the need to brag. Nice buck Ken and I'm sure you have many more.

Hey Dan I fugure Larry and Ron would still range find and use their binos on that big ladybug, what do you think.
I think Larry would shoot first and ask questions later....Was it a buck?, Did I get it?, Is it down, where did it go?!? :confused:

I know Ron would stand there, watch it for a bit, range it, glass it (he's a Vortex pig), and then maybe, just maybe bring his bow up. As for going to full draw on a buck like that? Nah, he'd have to let down and clean out his panties from just being within range of a honker like that! :twisted: :-D

I don't think Ron has taken a deer yet. I think he goes on the annual hunt just cause Larry goes. He can't get to sleep without being tucked in by Lawrence. :wink: :cry:

[Bow Walker]

I think "we" scared off the original poster here.

Hey Lorne! Don't be shy! Threads are like conversations - it's hard to stick to just one subject.

[308Lover]

X2! Absolutelythe right answer IMHO.

[Camp Cook]

I've shot 8 deer with a bow and arrow my buddy has shot several as well both of us have had deer jump the string.

The funniest was when my buddy had a nicest 4 point buck we had ever seen on Bowen Island only 30 yards in front of him standing perfectly broad side to us.

He aimed for the lungs when he released the deer jumped straight up resulting in the arrow going under it if it hadn't have moved it would have been one of the nicest shots I had ever seen.

The deer landed and just stood there looking at us buddy had time to knotch another arrow and aimed in exactly the same spot when he released the arrow the deer jumped straight up again with exactly the same results.

Deer landed and just stood there again this time my buddy decided to hold high so when the deer jumped it would go straight up into the arrow.

Buck took off straight ahead and was gone...

His bow had a 60lbs draw weight can't remember what size of arrows he was shooting.

I shoot an 80lbs bow with full length 2219 arrows here is one lucky story that happened to me...

I had a very nice 2 point mule deer buck standing broad side to me @ 20 yards I released the deer had time to spin from broadside to it's ass facing me the arrow buried itself almost to the fletching missing the ass hole by about 2" to the right.

Deer walked maybe 5 yards and dropped.

[308Lover]

My .308 180 grain arrives before the sound of anything except birds singing. The deer never hear a thing. The sound of my shot arrives after I've taken pics of the deer.(LOL) Just another problem for bowhunters to wrestle with. Don't compound bows have awesome velocity? Who would have thought the arrows arrived after the sound?

[jessbennett]

My .308 180 grain arrives before the sound of anything except birds singing. The deer never hear a thing. The sound of my shot arrives after I've taken pics of the deer.(LOL) Just another problem for bowhunters to wrestle with. Don't compound bows have awesome velocity? Who would have thought the arrows arrived after the sound?


300 to 320 fps is alot less than 2700 or 2800 fps from a rifle.......

[greybark]

:-D How about 180 fps :-D
Cheers

[jessbennett]

:-D How about 180 fps :-D
Cheers


i was going to edit for traditionalists, (as i shoot one off and on myself), but you beat me to it... :-D

[brian]

kirby is bang on. I work in animation, we look at a lot of slow motion movement patterns of all sorts of animals doing all sorts of things over and over and over again. One of the "rules" of animation you must anticipate your action. All living things do it that I know of. Even if it is split second, it is done. The video posted by huntwriter is a classic example of a deer loading to exploding forward.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjD3WHofbsw

The video posted by slinky also shows the same thing, watch the tail. As the deer goes to jump over the fence its ass end drops slightly to load the hind legs. The loading is small because the jump is relatively effortless compared to the deer running for its life. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjD3WHofbsw

And to clear up a few more things deer have toes, they walk on them. Their legs aren't "pre-bent" in the sense that they can muscularly defy physics. Their legs are just in a shape that is ideal for running and generating amazing amounts of force quickly. But their leg configuration doesn't mean they walk around with the equivalent of bent legs all the time (or to say that their glutes quads and calf muscles are always loaded and ready to bolt). They are in a much better position to do this than we are, but the legs use of muscular tension is not much different than ours if we were to walk on the balls of our feet.

[Crow]

greybark,

nice animals!

thanks for referring me to this thread

never quite understood at the time how I could miss my only opportunity so far /w a bow - a spike muley that had eyes & ears on me

I missed point blank inside of 25yrds /w my bow on flat terrain - the shot went just over its shoulder

I felt the shot was good as practised the shot many times

[troutseeker]

I've had blacktails, whitetails and mule deer jump the string. Only one mule deer escaped the arrow, and its more befause he went "matrix" n me than from dropping down.

[Ron.C]

yep, deer can do some crazy, unpredictable stuff. The best thing you can do is get try to get your shot away without them knowing your there and in my opinion, aim where you want the arrow to go and not hold hi because your last deer jumped. No one can predict what the deer will do when the arrow is released, but in most cases, you make out just fine if they are oblivious to your presence.

[greybark]

yep, deer can do some crazy, unpredictable stuff. The best thing you can do is get try to get your shot away without them knowing your there and in my opinion, aim where you want the arrow to go and not hold hi because your last deer jumped. No one can predict what the deer will do when the arrow is released, but in most cases, you make out just fine if they are oblivious to your presence.

:-D Absolutely !!!!!!

[Onesock]

Hey Barky I haven't seen that picture in a while. You might have been able to see him jump the string if you would have had your glasses on. HAHA. Missed you in camp in the late season. Were you up there?

[greybark]

:-DHey Onesock , nice to hear from you . Yup it`s the Bad Eyes Buck :-D
I spent 17 days in RC when the snow first arrived and just missed you guys . Had lots of does under me but not one buck , hell thats just WT`s being WT`s . I hope you guys made out well as ti appears the weather held out .
:-D I`ll give you a call
Cheers

[Onesock]

HUNTWRITER With your so called vast knowledge of animal anatomy you should really know there is no "air space" or "no zone" between the lungs and the spine on a deer or any other animal. This area is called the Thoracic Cavity and it regulates the pressure in the lungs. If you put an arrow through this cavity the deer WILL suffocate. When most bowhunters say they hit the "no zone" their arrow has actually passed harmlessly over top of the spine and through muscle tissue. If you look at a picture of a deers spine you will see it dives down dramatically above the shoulder area and an arrow can pass through a deer 4-5 inches lower than the back and never hit anything vital. i thought you should know this in case someone asks the question at one of your seminars.

[urbanhermit]

HUNTWRITER With your so called vast knowledge of animal anatomy you should really know there is no "air space" or "no zone" between the lungs and the spine on a deer or any other animal. This area is called the Thoracic Cavity and it regulates the pressure in the lungs. If you put an arrow through this cavity the deer WILL suffocate. When most bowhunters say they hit the "no zone" their arrow has actually passed harmlessly over top of the spine and through muscle tissue. If you look at a picture of a deers spine you will see it dives down dramatically above the shoulder area and an arrow can pass through a deer 4-5 inches lower than the back and never hit anything vital. i thought you should know this in case someone asks the question at one of your seminars.
now why on earth would you want to start adding facts and accurate information to the seminar at this stage, it will only confuse the students!:-D

[Ddog]

[QUOTE=huntwriter;706809]Deer learn, as most animals do, not from doing or experience, but by being taught. A doe "teaches" her offspring what to look out for and what sounds to pay close attention too. Short example, not every deer. knows what a tree stand is, but in areas where hunters use predominantly tree stands ALL deer look to the tree tops for danger. They learned it from others.

LMAO, sorry HW but they do not ALL look up tree tops for danger, some are looking up for food. like the old mans beard and such.
deer learn from experience, short and simple. Agreed that a doe does teach her offspring about dangers and sounds that are familiar that may lead to danger, but the bowstring i have a hard time believing that.

[Ddog]

when shooting at animal with the bow i once read many moons ago that aiming for the opposite side will enhance your odds of harvesting an animal ethically and humanely, quickly and efficiently. What this means is picture to yourself where the arrow will be exiting the animal instead of where it will be entering.
this has always worked for me, aiming for the heart is not my choice or is it anyone else's that i know of, I will always aim for the lungs, i have over 80 big game animals with my bow and not once have i said to my self when getting ready to shoot "aim for the heart", its always been if i shoot right there it will offer a perfect exiting hole.

I have had, in the past, deer "jump the string" this was also when the bows werent anything like todays bows.
jumping the string, like some others have said, the deer actually has to lower its body and put spring in its legs, they cannot just jump up and leave, it is the same as for a person, try it.