Charging Grizzly Stopped By Handgun

[laredo318]

Anyone else seen this yet??
A guy filming a couple of grizzlies..scared off by a handgun???

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/06/20/bc-grizzly-charge-leon-lorenz.html?ref=rss

[ytlogger]

Some people say that if you choose to carry a handgun you only need one round... for yourself.

[fester]

I like how he said it turned and looked him right in the eyes.

[hillclimber]

Thats a pretty close encounter. Isn't it pretty hard to get a permit to carry and handgun though???????

[lilhoss]

Doesn't say anywhere in that story that he had to buy new underwear.wow.Too close for sure!!

[bruin]

Uh, gives me the creeps that she came hunting him when she winded him. Could you imagine what would've happened if he wasn't prepared, not much time to react!

[BlacktailStalker]

This is ammo against firearm users, the encounter isnt/won't be the focus of the story as is evident by the granola comments.
The News doing what news does best.

[ytlogger]

There are a couple of questionable aspects to this story, for one, his carrying. Maybe the 'journalist' took a little licence.

[Gateholio]

It's quite conceivable that a wildlife photographer making his living in the bush has a Wilderness ATC, and everything is all legal there.

[kootenayelkslayer]

Wow, crazy footage. I've experienced that once with a grizzly sow with cubs, and wouldn't wish it upon anybody. It's hard to imagine firing a warning shot at that distance...maybe he just missed!

[Ambush]

It's quite conceivable that a wildlife photographer making his living in the bush has a Wilderness ATC, and everything is all legal there.
The man lives in Dunster, a small rural village made up mostly of Americans and strange, revert hippy types. They beleive they are an entity and uniquely intelligent. This is, of course, all stereo-typing, but a commonly held belief of outsiders.
If someone in Dunster wants to carry a hand gun, then he will assume he is entitled to. I think he should have said "rifle" instead of handgun and all would be good.

Now I'm sure Jelvis is franticly looking up old BC Outdoors articles about the hunting and fishing around Dunster, so he can add even less to this thread than I did.:mrgreen:

[Gateholio]

The man lives in Dunster, a small rural village made up mostly of Americans and strange, revert hippy types. They beleive they are an entity and uniquely intelligent. This is, of course, all stereo-typing, but a commonly held belief of outsiders.
If someone in Dunster wants to carry a hand gun, then he will assume he is entitled to. I think he should have said "rifle" instead of handgun and all would be good.

Now I'm sure Jelvis is franticly looking up old BC Outdoors articles about the hunting and fishing around Dunster, so he can add even less to this thread than I did.:mrgreen:



I think everyone should be entitled to carry a handgun, Dunsterite or not!:mrgreen:

[35 Whelen]

Yup that would be pretty scary. Nonetheless, that bear was bluff charging him all the way. If she had wanted him, she would have been low to the ground, ears flat against her head and running low and fast like a crocodile, her hair pasted flat against her skin. She ran at towards him several times then dodged to her right taking her two year old cub with her. And it would have been all over in about 2 seconds. She was bounding, ears up, hair bristling and trying to make herself look big.

Lucky for that guy she was a tolerant mom......he should have known better than trying to get that close to a sow with a two year old cub. He probably won't forget that for a long time, and will maybe learn something from his mistakes. And won't cost the life of a bear for his stupidity.

She was sure pretty colored, but I'll bet his shorts were a different story....LOL

[.330 Dakota]

I would imagine if there is any inteligence there at all he wouldnt have submitted the footage if he wasn't legal on the handgun. I am sure he has the carry permit. If not he's a moron to send the tape to anyone

[srupp]

The last charge I faced from a grizzly was the same scenario..mom and two juvinile delinquient thugs..:mrgreen:..when Mom ran @ us it was not high and proud but low and fast...no dodging anything........... straight like an arrow..

I have no doubt in this video w/o the "gun" she would have made contact..

steven

[pete_k]

I think everyone should be entitled to carry a handgun, Dunsterite or not!:mrgreen:

Most everyone is entitled to carry a handgun. Just not all of us qualify.
Besides qualifying. There are alot, and I mean ALOT of guys out there who don't have enough self control to be safely in possesion of a pistol when confronted over some BS little trivial matter. I'm sure most of us on here know one or two guys or women like that.

I'd rather have a little shotgun anyway.

[Gateholio]

Most everyone is entitled to carry a handgun. Just not all of us qualify.
Besides qualifying. There are alot, and I mean ALOT of guys out there who don't have enough self control to be safely in possesion of a pistol when confronted over some BS little trivial matter. I'm sure most of us on here know one or two guys or women like that.

I'd rather have a little shotgun anyway.

I know a few people that shouldn't be allowed to own any weapon. HAndgun, shotgun or rifle doesn't make a difference.

I'd rather have a shotgun or rifle for bear encounters, but a handgun is something that is on your person at all times, which makes it better than the rifle leaning against the tree!:-D

[Ambush]

The man obviously has his wits about him, because he has the presense of mind to get back on the camera and keep filming.

And I wasn't questioning whether or not he should have had a handgun. If anything, to me, it demonstrates why I should be able to carry. You know, being a self-righteous, quarrelsome, greedy, kid/senior hating bow-only hunter.:mrgreen:

[bushguy]

Yup that would be pretty scary. Nonetheless, that bear was bluff charging him all the way. If she had wanted him, she would have been low to the ground, ears flat against her head and running low and fast like a crocodile, her hair pasted flat against her skin. She ran at towards him several times then dodged to her right taking her two year old cub with her. And it would have been all over in about 2 seconds. She was bounding, ears up, hair bristling and trying to make herself look big.

Lucky for that guy she was a tolerant mom......he should have known better than trying to get that close to a sow with a two year old cub. He probably won't forget that for a long time, and will maybe learn something from his mistakes. And won't cost the life of a bear for his stupidity.

She was sure pretty colored, but I'll bet his shorts were a different story....LOL



Ur bang on whelen,,,,

[Dadawa70]

Hmmm. She got pretty close alright. Definitely inside my comfort zone if I had been the filmmaker. A somewhat similar encounter is why I always have a full jug of spray on my belt when I'm out there.

[dana]

Lorenzo has numerous wildlife DVD's on the market. He films in both the Robson and North Thompson valleys. He has had numerous encounters with grizz before. Working in the bush like he does, he probably has a permit to carry just like many forestry workers and miners. He stated on Global that he intentionally shot over her head. He didn't want to kill her.

[sparkes3]

i wonder if it was the muzzle blast that turned her.
do you think the outcome would have been different if he had actually hit her.

[Jelvis]

Lorenzo should not be harrassing the bear sows with new cubs, even older cubs and should try a new hobby that doesn't worry animals to a frenzy.
I think this vid is proof of that and will be seen by those in charge ... no pun intended. lol
jP ... no taking pictures for profit on sows with cubs period in their natural habitat, there are lots in zoos to take their photo's IMHO

[TyTy]

So many people, put themselves in the way of bears and always chince on their own protection, and the bears. That bear had every right to charge.

This guy is lucky, i believe it to be the proximity of the shot to the bear that deturred the attack (i wouldn't bank on scare shot so late into a charge though) the bear was caught off gaurd at the last second and bailed on the charge. This could've resulted in either a dead guy, or an orpahned cub. Atleast he had a gun.

Doing anything to/near/around a grizzly @ 25m (mother and cubs too boot) , should be done with two people IMO to be done diligently.

[Jelvis]

This kinda arrogant behavior that Lorenzo showed, being within 25 feet of a monster sow grizzly with cubs is insane to say the least. He was lucky that grizzly bears pretend to charge at first and then back off or that cap gun would have done nothing, he would have been mauled badly.
Jelly .. Lorenzo needs to change his ways now, he's making it worse for real hunters out there with his arrogant, invasive, selfish style. IMHO

[4 point]

They showed the actual footage on BCTV News tonight. I couldn't find a link to post here.

[RiverOtter]

Being that the cub followed momma on the charge, that dude is especially lucky.

[d6dan]

heres a link..
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/06/20/bc-grizzly-charge-leon-lorenz.html

[bayou]

Kootenayelkslayer and srupp curious as to the outcome of your charge experiences, and reason for charge did you know the bears were there, starteled of kill etc etc.

[proguide66]

Lorenzo should not be harrassing the bear sows with new cubs, even older cubs and should try a new hobby that doesn't worry animals to a frenzy.
I think this vid is proof of that and will be seen by those in charge ... no pun intended. lol
jP ... no taking pictures for profit on sows with cubs period in their natural habitat, there are lots in zoos to take their photo's IMHO


X2

aint a mom grizz who ISNT going to charge at that range...you wanna film grizzlies and NOT WASTE them , use a frikkin telephoto and some slides ect...timber video??? use a trail cam??...I cant see risking the bears lives for close timber filming especially sow grizzlies..

[Rattler]

Wow, that video brought back some memories alright. Those huffs sent tingles up my spine...YIKES!

[dana]

Watching the footage on Global, I don't think he was actually as close as some of you think. It took a good while for that bear to get that close to him. She would have been on him in less than a split second if it was only 25 feet. Big lens on cameras make things look closer than they actually are. Lorenzo has been at this for a long time. I think I bought one of his first videos back in the mid 90's and it had plenty of grizz footage in it. I'm sure he's fully aware of how to react around a sow and cub. The news story on Global was pretty darn lame. They drug up some so-called Bear Bio from the Wilderness Committee or something like that. Greenie and Flaming Gay. Pointing at the South Easter Corner of the Map of BC he says that there are hardly any grizz left here. Hmmm, isn't the Koots kinda overrun with Grizz??? I doubt if this dude has ever seen a Grizz in the Wild.

[kootenayelkslayer]

Kootenayelkslayer and srupp curious as to the outcome of your charge experiences, and reason for charge did you know the bears were there, starteled of kill etc etc.

Similar experience I guess. The sow didn't know what I was, but had heard me, and came running from over 200 yards away. It seemed odd that she would come from so far away when she had all the room in the world. Once she saw me, she focused right in on me with her yearlings following, but hit hit the brakes at about 3 paces. I was unarmed, so just stood my ground. She stood there for a sec, then ran off.
So, yup, that video brought back some memories! That huffing noise sure sticks in your head.

[mud-dog27]

yea was thinking the same thing as dana when they brought the wildlife bio up and he started going on about how there are so little grizz left and that the gun shouldnt have been fired because the bears environment is now ruined......im guessing the camera was on a tripod cause it was sure steady

[lucky_magic_stick]

Hi guys dont post much here but enjoy the great reads.Read this also on an other forum the guy was in a blind ground or tree dont know.Notice the camera is not shaking it was on a tripod near him( like mud-dog noticed) If it was mine would have been filming ground and I would have been scrambbling to get the heck out of there.Cheers Andy

[Johnnybear]

I have a few of his video's and my whole family enjoy's them alot. I am glad everone and animals walked away in this incident. My understanding is that he is a hunter as well. To get close to an animal is natural to him. I hope he continues to film and produce great videos.

[hunter1947]

This is my opinion.

Man this person was one lucky guy he came so close to getting it looking at this video I would say that the gun did not scare the Griz ,it was a bluff charge from the Griz.

Two bears together even made it worse ,I guess he had to change his pants after an ordeal like this one..

Lets face it the noise from the gun would not stop this bear if this bear really wanted to keep coming he would of..

[Devilbear]

I agree and think that the bear was just curious as to who/what he was. I also agree with Dana and that bear was not very close to the camera.

I have been within ten yards of Grizzlies on three occasions, 1974, 1979 and 1989 and twice I was unarmed and alone and once was with two guys and we had rifles.

I get the sense from the video that this is not a very aggressive Grizzly and many are not, but, I never knowingly approach one and I always carry and use a freon horn when hiking in Grizzly areas. I figure that, if I make some ungawdly, strange racket, the bears are more likely to leave the vicinity before I startle one and it has worked, so far.......

Does anyone know the name of the alleged "wildlife bio" who commented on this situation? I know a number of actual RPBios and would be very surprised to hear comments like that from any working professional with genuine Grizzly experience.

I think that the guy showed exactly the sort of behaviour that is "best" in this situation. But, take a look at the CBC forum for simply bizarre comments about how we humans should be killed so these bears can survive, etc. and statements to the effect that those who approach bears are ...scum..., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.....

I used to hear this crap forty years ago from treeplanters and conepickers, REAL "mountainmen" from American urban backgrounds, when I had to supervise silvicultural projects. I never had one chomped, but, the "temptation" was there, if ya know what I mean.......

[Fisher-Dude]

WC2 fag on TV says he "wrecked the grizzly habitat by firing the gun." WTF?

I've had the same duo of grizz up close and personal - I'll never forget that huffing sound. I'm glad I had the experience though...it's pretty cool to look back on! :twisted:

[silvicon]

I wonder what make & caliber he used.
This answer is much more interesting than what some leftwing anti-use faggots say on public funded tv.

[Brambles]

Yup, thats pretty much what it sounded like just before it shit kicked the tent, and us with it. But we never heard the cub making any noise. MAN I wish I could have gotten a shot off at that #$)#(*

[Steeleco]

They showed the actual footage on BCTV News tonight. I couldn't find a link to post here.


WC2 fag on TV says he "wrecked the grizzly habitat by firing the gun." WTF?

I've had the same duo of grizz up close and personal - I'll never forget that huffing sound. I'm glad I had the experience though...it's pretty cool to look back on! :twisted:

I saw the clip this morning. Had they interviewed one of our friends from the CO's office it would given far more credibility to the tale.

Does he honestly think the grizz is going to sit back one day and reminisce about the day that human creature spoiled our morning. What a freak!!!

[calvin L]

One more reason all of us should have a weapon for defence at all time in the bush . It happened to me in 4-23 above river side on a bow hunt . It was one of the only times I was glad to have had to cross a ugly side

calvin L

[budismyhorse]

Aren't G bears in the breeding season now?????

So, on a daily basis she is protecting her cub from being killed by every horny boar that comes by.....don't you think she would be "on edge" like she was??

Maybe the breeding season isn't such a good time to get in tight on a sow with a cub.........just saying.

If you mess with the bull, you get the horns.......cull.

[GoatGuy]

One more reason all of us should have a weapon for defence at all time in the bush . It was one of the only times I was glad to have had to cross a ugly side

calvin L

This could be interpreted so many ways.

[emerson]

A charging grizzly doesn't get stopped by a single shot from a .44mag. She handled the situation in a way that makes perfect sense in "bear logic". She chose not to maul him. Either way this isn't/shouldn't be news. Messing with a sow and cub in their house is like running into traffic etc. You take your chances; regardless of whether you believe you share some deep personal bond with the animals or not.

[KodiakHntr]

Messing with a sow and cub in their house is like running into traffic etc. You take your chances; regardless of whether you believe you share some deep personal bond with the animals or not.

Did the film maker state he had a "deep personal bond" with the bears somewhere? Or is this merely speculation on your part?

And regardless, some people make their living in bear country. I do, he evidently does or he wouldn't of qualified for a carry permit.
If you make your living taping bears in the wild, you video bears in the wild. You go when you have to so that you get the job done.

[TSW]

Those are some gorgeous bears!!

[BCrams]

Brings back memories alright. Had a boar charge full on but straight on back in '98 that stopped on a dime as I braced for the hit and proceeded to shower me with debris with his forepaws while huffing above the Torpy River within a high cutblock not far from Bear Paw Ridge......and what makes it more chilling was that a couple weeks later, well known outdoor enthusiast George Evanoff was killed by a grizzly on Bear Paw ridge.

[Kody94]

WC2 fag on TV says he "wrecked the grizzly habitat by firing the gun." WTF?

I've had the same duo of grizz up close and personal - I'll never forget that huffing sound. I'm glad I had the experience though...it's pretty cool to look back on! :twisted:

Who the f*ck was that guy?? Grizzly bear EXPERT they says!! Unfricken believable! Typical Global clowns. I like how he points to the entire east and west kootenays and says that the bears are almost gone from there!

On the sharing of gristle bear charges, I experienced my own close encounter of the horribilus kind back in 1993. Sow with 2 cubs. The cubs stayed behind while she charged me and my hunting partner. I was elk hunting and she brought them to my bugle! She was about 5ft from feeling some hot lead, but thankfully she stopped, huffed and puffed a little and went back to her cubs. Was a cool experience....I can say now.....

[Fisher-Dude]

Who the f*ck was that guy?? Grizzly bear EXPERT they says!! Unfricken believable! Typical Global clowns. I like how he points to the entire east and west kootenays and says that the bears are almost gone from there!

On the sharing of gristle bear charges, I experienced my own close encounter of the horribilus kind back in 1993. Sow with 2 cubs. The cubs stayed behind while she charged me and my hunting partner. I was elk hunting and she brought them to my bugle! She was about 5ft from feeling some hot lead, but thankfully she stopped, huffed and puffed a little and went back to her cubs. Was a cool experience....I can say now.....

Yep, the miserable biotch that gave me and eastkoot some grey hairs stalked us as we bugled/cow called elk. Luckily, we had just decided to get up and move, or she would have snuck right up behind us. :shock:

For a 12 day hunt, I bring 13 pairs of clean gonch, just in case. :mrgreen:

[Devilbear]

Who the f*ck was that guy?? Grizzly bear EXPERT they says!! Unfricken believable! Typical Global clowns. I like how he points to the entire east and west kootenays and says that the bears are almost gone from there!

On the sharing of gristle bear charges, I experienced my own close encounter of the horribilus kind back in 1993. Sow with 2 cubs. The cubs stayed behind while she charged me and my hunting partner. I was elk hunting and she brought them to my bugle! She was about 5ft from feeling some hot lead, but thankfully she stopped, huffed and puffed a little and went back to her cubs. Was a cool experience....I can say now.....

I just finally saw the interviews on Global and the comments of "wildlife biologist and Grizzly expert" Andy Miller, referred to here as a ...faggot....

I have no idea if this chap IS a homosexual and I could not care less, but, what I DO find on the WCWC site is a claim on his "bio" as a staff member, that he holds ...advanced degrees in biology and forestry....

It is customary when presenting as a "pro" with such educational attainments, to LIST these and the origins thereof, as in "Bsf. UBC, 1990, RPF". However......this "expert" as he was called on the news DOES NOT list his degrees, dip. techs. or any affiliations with professional groups, such as "The Association of Forest Professionals of BC". So.....a little doubt entered my elderly mind, old curmudgeon and veteran or many environmental battles that I am and, I think that the process to query his "expertise" is only too obvious.

Our buddy here, SSSSter, IS a REAL RPF and I seem to recall that a RPBIO. might lurk about this site, as well. So, would it be possible to check this guy's "creds" and see IF he IS a genuine biosciences pro??????


HHmmmmmm?????

Personally, I think that he is some little pussy who came to Vancouver from some foreign city, like most of their staff and "volunteers" and now is trying to tell us all about the environment most of us were born, raised and have lived/worked in all of our lives.....ain't that typical of leftist "activists" in contemporary BC-Canada? Guess we should be grateful as we native-born peasants would never have a small clue as to how to manage OUR environment.................

On second thought, no offence to gay people, but, this azzwipe IS a faggot!!!

[mcrae]

HHmmmmmm?????

Personally, I think that he is some little pussy who came to Vancouver from some foreign city, like most of their staff and "volunteers" and now is trying to tell us all about the environment most of us were born, raised and have lived/worked in all of our lives.....ain't that typical of leftist "activists" in contemporary BC-Canada? Guess we should be grateful as we native-born peasants would never have a small clue as to how to manage OUR environment.................

On second thought, no offence to gay people, but, this azzwipe IS a faggot!!!

sums up my thoughts after watching this moron flap his mouth as well...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

On CHBC tonight they had the rebuttle by the filmaker to the so called" bear expert's" comments.
He wasn't pleased with the "flamer's" comments:).
I'd post a link but I don't think it's online as of yet.

SSS

[henderson]

sums up my thoughts after watching this moron flap his mouth as well...

saw it last night totally agree with you mate!

[Fisher-Dude]

Andy Miller, Staff Scientist and National Field Office Director, Vancouver
Andy Miller has performed many functions at the Wilderness Committee since he started volunteering in 1991. His duties have ranged from door-to-door canvasser, to mail room clerk, to staff scientist, to his current role helping out with the smooth running of the Wilderness Committee's field offices. Andy has advanced degrees in biology and forestry and specializes in old growth forest ecology. When he is not beavering away on office work, you can catch him in the field pursuing his favorite activity, bird watching.



So, after a stint in as a mailroom clerk, he's a bona fide scientist. ***** @ that!

"Advanced degrees"? Yeah, right. $39.95 and you can have one too!

[kootenayelkslayer]

I finally saw the Global video from last night. What a joke. I looked up this Andy Miller fellow...he hasn't had one single publication. He has no credibility what so ever. Is it time to write to Global again? This has got to stop.
I also heard they did another story on the grizzly tonight, and more people were giving Lorenz shit for 'ruining' grizzly habitat. It's unbelieveable.

[Fisher-Dude]

I finally saw the Global video from last night. What a joke. I looked up this Andy Miller fellow...he hasn't had one single publication. He has no credibility what so ever. Is it time to write to Global again? This has got to stop.
I also heard they did another story on the grizzly tonight, and more people were giving Lorenz shit for 'ruining' grizzly habitat. It's unbelieveable.

Get fonting to Global. Put that expensive education to work! :wink:

[kootenayelkslayer]

Get fonting to Global. Put that expensive education to work! :wink:

I might just have to do that. The only thing I found on that Andy Miller fellow was some of his outrageous quotes during the big Jumbo Pass debacle.
You'd think Global could find someone credible for these stories...but I suppose if an RPBio was on TV saying the grizz populations are fine, it wouldn't be an interesting story :?

[Devilbear]

Some of the genuine experts on animal behaviour in BC wilderness and "interface" I have known were high school graduates and others held Phd.s in Zoology. I can well remember the great respect some of the bio. profs at Selkirk had for certain "old timers" and their real knowledge of Grizzlies. The guy who largely initiated the whole "RPBio." programme in BC, and recently retired as Chairman of the Forest Practices Board of BC, an old friend of mine, Dr. B.E.C. Fraser, was among these.

I can remember Billy Clarke of the Lardeau, Russell Fletcher of Nelson and Sam Kania of Slocan Park as men who KNEW WTF they were talking about with repect to animal behaviour. In fact, Russ was among the most intelligent men I have ever met and ranked with Ian McTaggart-Cowan as one I always listened to.

This kid, well, he needs a few months on one of my old "bare root" planting crews of 40+ years ago......teach him what ...beavering away... at work is REALLY all about; although it appears as though "beaver" is not an interest of his........even as a "wildlife expert"....................

[OutWest]

Only seen the charge video. Links to the others?

[Kody94]

Found this on the WC2 website from 1996...


Andrew Miller, who holds a Master of Science degree in wildlife management from the University of Alberta and is a PhD candidate there, was WCWC's chief witness. His list of credentials makes him a leading northern Spotted Owl expert. As a wildlife biologist with the U.S. Forest Service from 1988 through 1991, Miller conducted extensive field research on the Spotted Owl, noting that these fearless birds have only one persistent enemy, the timber barons.

I can't find where he actually achieved his PhD, yet....

[Kody94]

Incomplete PhD, by the looks of it....



andy miller’s Experience

staff scientist / field office director since 1991

wilderness committee

(Environmental Services industry)
November 1991 — Present (18 years 8 months)
Manage 7 Field Offices across Canada
Develop scientific case for wilderness preservation and improved land management
Wildlife Biologist / Timber Sale Planner

United States Forest Service

(Environmental Services industry)
1983 — 1991 (8 years )
Endangered Species Specialistandy miller’s Education

University of Alberta

MSc + uncompleted PhD , Wildlife Biology / Forestry / Social Psychology , 1991 — 1996

I see nothing that leads me to believe that he's an "expert" in anything related to bears.

[ytlogger]

After all of the bear encounter stories that you see on a board like this, a guy could draw the conclusion that this story only hit the news to draw attention to the filmmaker and his art. Who ever heard of Treadwell before his demise?

I can see now how the guy could carry. I tend to stumble over the idea that ' takin' pitchers is work'.

[ytlogger]

As for Miller, being recognized as an expert these days is all about the media and selling yourself and not about accreditation and experience.

...Fruit flies to Grizzly Bears...
...Silver spoon vice-president to Climate afficionado...

[OOBuck]

I think everyone should be entitled to carry a handgun, Dunsterite or not!:mrgreen:

I`ll second that! I`d carry two!:-D

[ytlogger]

With all due respect to those who have lost loved ones in a firearm related incident and truly believe that the gun laws in place would make a difference....

I think that the foundation to the present legislation is the long gun registry. One step at a time.

All in favour...

[o2fish2day]

Geez that sends shivers down my spine watching that

[curt]

I carry a 450 marlin lever action any bears gets to me through that the deserve me !!!:)