Just to get the sheep boys salivating

[Slinky Pickle]

http://i.dslr.net/pics_cache/157562_96e61923b2ec3778c44a947f4981e9ab.jpg

[sheep.elk.moose fanatic]

got me going !! wow nice pic

[pnbrock]

its a freak!!!!

[Rymar]

age guesses?

[SHAKER]

Yep he'll do!

[guest]

Just to get some of you wound up 8.5 yrs.

CT

[Slinky Pickle]

This was from last year (post season) so he should be even bigger now!

[dutchie]

Nice looking sheep and just as good of a picture!!

I am saying 7.5 yrs old

dutchie

[stixnstones]

hey dutchie.get to work lol

[CSG]

what kind of camera and how close were you to the ram?

[Slinky Pickle]

what kind of camera and how close were you to the ram?

This one... at about 25 - 30 yards.

http://i.dslr.net/pics_cache/160027_94b3323257a5b2645cdec487c672e05f.jpg

[kennyj]

Nice photo! I'd say 8.5.
kenny

[yukon john]

7.5 for me, nice pic!

[CSG]

Jesus! that is quite the camera set up! Never seen something like that, is it a proffesional setup or your own custom rig?

Also, how can I get pictures from my dispodable that come out looking like yours?


This one... at about 25 - 30 yards.

http://i.dslr.net/pics_cache/160027_94b3323257a5b2645cdec487c672e05f.jpg

[bruin]

Ooooooooooo! Nice sheep! 7 for me.
Got any more?? Is this a BC ram?

[Ghost Stalker]

8.5 beautiful cam setup and not a huge ram from the angle. still very nice.

[GoatGuy]

Lots of potential - chase ram?

What month was the picture was taken?


A little help for the folks here.

Yearling ram -

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/yearling_ram.JPG

Ram Lamb

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/lamb_ram.JPG

Class I Ram

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/class_I.JPG


Wouldn't reccomend spences for anyone anytime soon.

[hntcrazy]

Bang! Dead

[stoneguide]

I would call him 8.5 also. Great pic of a great ram.
SG

[Slinky Pickle]

Lots of potential - chase ram?

What month was the picture was taken?



Late October of 2009 and it's region 3 but not Chase. I haven't seen many sheep around Chase for ages. They're still there but pretty scarce.



Jesus! that is quite the camera set up! Never seen something like that, is it a proffesional setup or your own custom rig?

I'm purely amateur (I have lots of pictures that are crap) and the camera rig is a combination of store bought and home grown. Drilling and tapping the lens body for the dovetail so I could mount the red dot took a little head scratching. The red dot sure helps for fast moving stuff though!


Also, how can I get pictures from my dispodable that come out looking like yours?

You can't :mrgreen:

[David Heitsman]

Had you posted that pic before somewhere? I think I recognize it. The eye and back ground are quite distinct. I think he's eight.

[pnbrock]

i only see 7 where is the extra 1.5 years?

[Brew]

I'd guess 8.5. cool pic and a nice camera. thanks for the photo

[bigwhiteys]

Sorry guys but the ram pictured by the OP is not 8.5... If you really think he is 8.5 then how old is this controversial ram...? GoatGuy blasted everybody but is too afraid to enter his own guess? I am calling 7 and a bit, take some pics and let him go!

http://members.shaw.ca/stevensml/hunting/sheep3_800x600.jpg

[bighornbob]

Being a Region 3 ram, he is only 6 years old (lamb tips are usually over six inches). So on this guy there is no brooming of lamb tips.

BHB

[bigwhiteys]

Being a Region 3 ram, he is only 6 years old (lamb tips are usually over six inches). So on this guy there is no brooming of lamb tips.

BHB the ram pictured by the OP does in fact have his tips broomed, probably a few inches at least.

Carl

[r106]

I don't know much about sheep but my guess is the first one is 7 and the second one 6?
________
Acura Slx (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Acura_SLX)

[bigwhiteys]

he is only 6 years old (lamb tips are usually over six inches).

I have read many studies, and done lots of searching to back this claim up and no go.... This study below was from Ram Mountain Alberta. 1 year old rams put up an average of less than 10cm growth their first year... That's considerably less than 6"+.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/images/bighornage.jpg

http://mathieu.garel.free.fr/pdffiles/art13.pdf <----- Link to documents.

Carl

[bighornbob]

BHB the ram pictured by the OP does in fact have his tips broomed, probably a few inches at least.

Carl

Yes you are correct. What I meant was, that he has not broomed past his lamb tips. He with what he has broomed off, I figure his lamb tip to be about 2-3 inches from the tip.

BHB

[Kody94]

I think he's no more than 7, and could be 6. I agree with BHB that he's not broomed past his lambtip (maybe 2 or 3" broomed, and another inch or so still there from what was his lambtip). I'd want to take a closer inspection to confirm if there's another ring in there between what I take to be "1" and "3". If not, its only 6....IMHO. :)

[bigwhiteys]

I think he's no more than 7, and could be 6. I agree with BHB that he's not broomed past his lambtip (maybe 2 or 3" broomed, and another inch or so still there from what was his lambtip). I'd want to take a closer inspection to confirm if there's another ring in there between what I take to be "1" and "3". If not, its only 6....IMHO.
I would agree with your statement, but if you follow the horn to the next prominent ring (by his ear) the annuli immediately start getting closer together... This usually happens around year 4 because instead of putting up length they are putting that growth into mass in preparation for maturity/rut. He is not legal by age, we know this.

Carl

[bighornbob]

I have read many studies, and done lots of searching to back this claim up and no go.... This study below was from Ram Mountain Alberta. 1 year old rams put up an average of less than 10cm growth their first year... That's considerably less than 6"+.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/images/bighornage.jpg

http://mathieu.garel.free.fr/pdffiles/art13.pdf <----- Link to documents.

Carl


As your dad would say, I dont care what the studies say:mrgreen:

Region 3 is totally different and the growing of horns is huge here compared to other areas. From Spences Bridge, to the Tranquille heard to the Mt.Paul herd. They put on horn fast. Thats why there have been some 3 year old sheep taken as legal full curls (under the old system of reaching the eye) in Spences. Not sure if its due to the mild climate (no snow some years) or what.

I have talked to the bios (Region 3) here about it and they all agree. My ram I shot last year on the Fraser River had about 3 inches broomed off and the bio agreed that the lamb tip was probably right below the brooming and it was a poor horn growth.

Also I have personaly sat on a few lambs when we transplant them in February and I confirm that they are sporting 6 inches of horn by then. We are planning on transplanting another 30 this Spring, you should come out and see for yourself.

Another note on the sheep here, the ones in Kamloops are usually in full rut by mid-October. The bio said its probably the earliest rutting herd in Canada.

BHB

[GoatGuy]

I have read many studies, and done lots of searching to back this claim up and no go.... This study below was from Ram Mountain Alberta. 1 year old rams put up an average of less than 10cm growth their first year... That's considerably less than 6"+.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/images/bighornage.jpg

http://mathieu.garel.free.fr/pdffiles/art13.pdf <----- Link to documents.

Carl

YOu don't get the whole picture at Ram mountain. Lots of problems with the study area. There's different phenotypes which affect horn growth and you've got problems with inbreeding there as well.

[bigwhiteys]

As your dad would say, I dont care what the studies say:mrgreen:

I do though... And I just find it odd, that these spences rams grow so fast compared to other healthy populations (Cadomin??) and yet there is very little published info on the anomoly... You'd think it would be a topic of interest?

I am open to believing, but posts on a hunting forum aren't going to convert me :)

Carl

[Slinky Pickle]

I'm pretty interested in all the conversation about this guy. I don't know enough to even offer an opinion but I can throw a little more fuel on the fire. Here is a crop of the image showing only the right curl.

Sorry for the huge image size but I figured bigger would be better for this.

http://www.ospreydesign.ca/Images/Curl.jpg

[bighornbob]

I am open to believing, but posts on a hunting forum aren't going to convert me :)

Carl

Thats why I have invited you to come up for the transplant, I will even throw in a place to stay.

BHB

[GoatGuy]

Sorry guys but the ram pictured by the OP is not 8.5... If you really think he is 8.5 then how old is this controversial ram...? GoatGuy blasted everybody but is too afraid to enter his own guess? I am calling 7 and a bit, take some pics and let him go!

http://members.shaw.ca/stevensml/hunting/sheep3_800x600.jpg
Not afraid of a guess, just trying to help some folks figure it out with pictures.

Your old man took most of the brunt of it if I recall correctly and it was, as always, well deserved. :wink:

[GoatGuy]

I do though... And I just find it odd, that these spences rams grow so fast compared to other healthy populations (Cadomin??) and yet there is very little published info on the anomoly... You'd think it would be a topic of interest?

I am open to believing, but posts on a hunting forum aren't going to convert me :)

Carl

Generally speaking researchers don't care about introduced species unless that species is negatively impacting another.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Put it this way.............I wouldn't shoot either of those rams if I was hunting Spences.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

As your dad would say, I dont care what the studies say:mrgreen:

Region 3 is totally different and the growing of horns is huge here compared to other areas. From Spences Bridge, to the Tranquille heard to the Mt.Paul herd. They put on horn fast. Thats why there have been some 3 year old sheep taken as legal full curls (under the old system of reaching the eye) in Spences. Not sure if its due to the mild climate (no snow some years) or what.

I have talked to the bios (Region 3) here about it and they all agree. My ram I shot last year on the Fraser River had about 3 inches broomed off and the bio agreed that the lamb tip was probably right below the brooming and it was a poor horn growth.

Also I have personaly sat on a few lambs when we transplant them in February and I confirm that they are sporting 6 inches of horn by then. We are planning on transplanting another 30 this Spring, you should come out and see for yourself.

Another note on the sheep here, the ones in Kamloops are usually in full rut by mid-October. The bio said its probably the earliest rutting herd in Canada.

BHB

Mild winters areas with lots of good feed (people's lawns and golf courses) you'll often get a 'false ring' and a very small growth spurt in the winter as well.

[Kody94]

The blow up helps. Assuming the picture was taken very recently, I think he was born in May/June of 2005.

SP, can you confirm when the picture was taken?

Have any pics like that of the other side?

[bigwhiteys]

Your old man took most of the brunt of it if I recall correctly and it was, as always, well deserved.
Brunt of what? That ram is still in the courts... There are some fairly credible individuals who say it's a legal 8 year old ram. No, not my Dad either so it will be interesting when that one plays out.

The latest picture posted by Slinky scared me when it popped on screen... That was big... The spences ram I posted is definitely heavier, and has more broomed off. The placement and spacing of his annuli also suggests he is an older ram than what Slinky has posted, but I am not a bighorn expert.

Slinkys ram is no question not legal by age... Fines payable in the form of donations to the WSSOBC for all of you who said otherwise :) The other ram though... It will be decided eventually!

Carl

[Slinky Pickle]

The blow up helps. Assuming the picture was taken very recently, I think he was born in May/June of 2005.

SP, can you confirm when the picture was taken?

Have any pics like that of the other side?

Pic was taken in late October of 2009

No pics of the opposite side, sorry. His eye ball was telling me I was close enough and I think that if I were to have ventured around the other side he would have made me one of his ewes... if you know what I mean.

[Kody94]

Pic was taken in late October of 2009



OK. Makes more sense. Thanks. IMHO he was 5.5 yo at the time and was born in spring of 2004.

I'd like to see the other side, and the inside of the horn to be sure (may be one year older).

[guest]

I just knew the 8.5 would get things going.......
personally, if hunting an area like Spences, I would not hammer this guy, unless I wanted a big fine, loss of Trophy and meat, and the shame.
I do think he is really 7.5, but profess I am no expert.
I have and still look for the obvious and easily recognized legal Ram. Guys that are close like this one, should be left alone.

CT

[GoatGuy]

Brunt of what? That ram is still in the courts... There are some fairly credible individuals who say it's a legal 8 year old ram. No, not my Dad either so it will be interesting when that one plays out.

The latest picture posted by Slinky scared me when it popped on screen... That was big... The spences ram I posted is definitely heavier, and has more broomed off. The placement and spacing of his annuli also suggests he is an older ram than what Slinky has posted, but I am not a bighorn expert.

Slinkys ram is no question not legal by age... Fines payable in the form of donations to the WSSOBC for all of you who said otherwise :) The other ram though... It will be decided eventually!

Carl

Brunt of this: "GoatGuy blasted everybody".

There's lots of 'experts' and 'credible individuals' when it comes to aging sheep - lots of hunters who only miss 7' bears and booner bucks too.

The MoE had an aging clinic a couple years ago which included biologists outside of the MoE. Some folks had a good grasp on thinhorns, some on bighorns very very few (more like 1) on both.

As you can see on this thread even the 'professional' guides have no clue.

In any case back to the learning:

Two is normally the first prominent ring.

Brooming back to 1 think size of your forearm (as posted with the 'yearling ram'), back to two closer to the size of an average bicep.

If you pick this stuff up the aging part becomes much easier especially when looking at young sheep that aren't stacked up at all. Takes away the guess work.

[BlacktailStalker]

6 and 7 and a bit are my guesses but I dont have a sheep on my wall so I'll just continue looking for my baseball. Frank and beans !

[6616]

Also I have personaly sat on a few lambs when we transplant them in February and I confirm that they are sporting 6 inches of horn by then.

I concur with this statement. Just going by the sheep in the Kicking Horse Canyon I have positivelly witnessed male lambs of the year with 6" horns in February and March. The Kicking Horse sheep are artificially fed all winter and horn growth occurs during the winter months following the rut, however, it certainly appears that irregardless of forage quality or habitat conditions bighorns have much more horn growth in the first year of life than is typically seen in thinhorns.

[BCrams]

The MoE had an aging clinic a couple years ago which included biologists outside of the MoE. Some folks had a good grasp on thinhorns, some on bighorns very very few (more like 1) on both.



Learned a lot from that '1' fellow when learning horn curl ages 10 yrs ago!

bigwhiteys - I've seen that graph before and in fact communicated with Festa who's been involved with that 'Ram Mountain' research and horn growths over the years a few times. You need to do a little more research because even he himself told me there is a big varation in horn growth rates between different herds (i.e., Montana, Oregon, Spences, Kamloops etc) and different areas. The ram mountain herd has been studied to death and he cautioned that in no way the horns growths are an 'absolute' representation of bighorn horn growths elsewhere. I am by no means an expert (especially with bighorns) but one way a person gets good at things is being open and transparent with new information and data. I learned quick and accepted substantial horn growths do occur with bighorns for their lamb year.

As an addendum to this issue. This highlights "why" hunters should not be attempting to 'age' rams in the field. For most hunters, sticking to simple guidelines (i.e., full curl is the way to go versus trying to make a sub legal ram legal based on age).

Courts or not, I do not believe the OP ram is legal by age and as such shouldn't have been shot.

[bigwhiteys]

bigwhiteys - I've seen that graph before and in fact communicated with Festa who's been involved with that 'Ram Mountain' research and horn growths over the years a few times. You need to do a little more research because even he himself told me there is a big varation in horn growth rates between different herds (i.e., Montana, Oregon, Spences, Kamloops etc) and different areas.


I am not disputing that there is different rates of growth in different herds... Common sense would suggest that based on conditions/resources available to the herd. What I said was, I am not going to "believe it" wholeheartedly because someone said so on a hunting forum.

Either way... we've determined the Ram posted by Slinky at the start of this thread is NOT legal by age. Clear as mud!

Carl

[GoatGuy]

I am not disputing that there is different rates of growth in different herds... Common sense would suggest that based on conditions/resources available to the herd. What I said was, I am not going to "believe it" wholeheartedly because someone said so on a hunting forum.

Either way... we've determined the Ram posted by Slinky at the start of this thread is NOT legal by age. Clear as mud!

Carl

Also, don't forget Bianchet's 'conclusion' for ram mountain was that the size of sheep horns has been going down due to selective harvest by hunters and that horn size is tied to survival, breeding success and body mass.

[BCrams]

I have read many studies, and done lots of searching to back this claim up and no go.... This study below was from Ram Mountain Alberta. 1 year old rams put up an average of less than 10cm growth their first year... That's considerably less than 6"+.

Carl


I am not disputing that there is different rates of growth in different herds... Common sense would suggest that based on conditions/resources available to the herd. What I said was, I am not going to "believe it" wholeheartedly because someone said so on a hunting forum.

Carl

I'm glad you said that because in an earlier post today you were disputing it by saying its a 'no go' citing the Ram Mtn chart. :wink:

Followed by the post you do not dispute horn growth variations.

Which is it?

Perhaps then, based on your acknowledgement on horn growth variations ..... you would accept that the Spences ram is not 8 plus like you and your dad think.

I think its fantastic you're researching but you have to keep in mind, many on here (the posts you're referring to) have also done their research thoroughly and when I first saw that graph when digging for information on the OP issue when it first came up (because I was all of a sudden faced with new and very reliable info sent to me via some folks) I went further than what you did regarding the Ram Mtn Chart ..... I contacted Festa himself in which I further learned that he would not use that chart to represent any other herds and cautioned against it and gave examples of those other herds with variations in horn growth etc.

Bang on with the other ram. I concur ... not legal by age :-D

[srupp]

WOW...again amazing information..and certainly great reason when in doubt..pass up on the shot..and these sheep need to be fullcurl...


steven

[bigwhiteys]

I'm glad you said that because in an earlier post today you were disputing it by saying its a 'no go' citing the Ram Mtn chart. :wink:

Followed by the post you do not dispute horn growth variations.

Which is it?

Yeah, I said it's a no-go as far as finding information to state that spences bighorn rams spurt 6" growth as BHB stated. The ram mountian study was simply a reference.


Perhaps then, based on your acknowledgement on horn growth variations ..... you would accept that the Spences ram is not 8 plus like you and your dad think.
That's the courts decision to make we can all argue about it on HBC after, how about that?

Carl

[BCrams]

Yeah, I said it's a no-go as far as finding information to state that spences bighorn rams spurt 6" growth as BHB stated. The ram mountian study was simply a reference.

As you know now. Probably not a great reference.

That said, the Ram Mtn research is very interesting given they've been studied to death.




That's the courts decision to make we can all argue about it on HBC after, how about that?

Carl
[/quote]

Based on your extensive research......what do you think the OP ram is?? Legal by age or not legal by age? (irregardless of courts)

Mine shows that the ram is not legal by age. Whats yours?

Wonder if the courts have supplemental information highlighting that the Ram Mtn chart is not representive of other areas?

[bigwhiteys]

Based on your extensive research......what do you think the OP ram is?? Legal by age or not legal by age? (irregardless of courts
The OP (slinkys) ram is not legal by age. If you are referring to the spences ram that is in the courts, the age I give it matters not, I wouldn't have shot it based on age and have specified so already.

Any ram I will even think about shooting (or letting my partner shoot) is going to be a sure thing for legality both in age and curl... No question.

Carl

[BCrams]

Any ram I will even think about shooting (or letting my partner shoot) is going to be a sure thing for legality both in age and curl... No question.

Carl

I already know your personal standards!! Good ones at that :-D

[bigwhiteys]

I already know your personal standards!! Good ones at that
I'd rather shoot at and miss the big boy I am after then dump a fine-line ram and have to go through the courts, charges etc...

Carl

[Mik]

I have never nailed a sheep, and it makes me wonder, just when I think I got it figured out, someone throws a curve ball. I would have guessed 7.5 for both, but then again, what do I know? Thanks to all who post info on this subject, it has been a great learning curve...so far.

[Darksith]

the big picture I count 8 years, am I wrong? nvm they deleted it

[stoneguide]

I have read many studies, and done lots of searching to back this claim up and no go.... This study below was from Ram Mountain Alberta. 1 year old rams put up an average of less than 10cm growth their first year... That's considerably less than 6"+.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/images/bighornage.jpg

http://mathieu.garel.free.fr/pdffiles/art13.pdf <----- Link to documents.

Carl


I really love when this study gets brought up and compared to other areas. It shows how little the person bringing it up actually knows. I live within a half hour drive of "Ram Mountain". It is a very small isolated bunch of sheep that live on one solitary mountain that is at least 30 air miles from the nearest mountain range. The herd has had other rams transplanted into it to get more genetics in it as there is no migration of new sheep in and out of the herd.

To compare horn growth from one area in alberta to another in BC is about as useless as can be. There are alot of different variables that effect the different areas and horn growth.

SG

[stoneguide]

Here is my take on the original ram. Im sure many will disagree but Ive counted alot of sheep and this is my thoughts. Lamb tips are never much more that and inch or two. Second year growth is a fair bit more with the third and fourth year on lots of rams showing the most growth as far as length goes. Year four growth ring on most bighorns and stones seem to have a double growth ring at year four and are usually close to that horizontal plane at the very rear of the horn. The base is where it gets tricky. A guy would have to have another look at this guy but id put money on this ram having his half year growth starting pretty close to the base.
Like I said just my thoughts.


I get 8 1/2 but would need a better look at the base ring to shoot him in an 8 year old area. Of the red lines id only count one. Ive seen rams registered and getting counted with one and also seen them both counted. I wouldnt take the chance. I always leave one ring out.

Worst part on these rams is peoples perception on how many years are broomed off.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/157562_96e61923b2ec3778c44a947f4981e9ab_1_.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=19362&size=big&cat=500)

[bigwhiteys]

I really love when this study gets brought up and compared to other areas. It shows how little the person bringing it up actually knows.

Coming from the guy who is still calling this ram 8.5 I don't feel too bad.

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here is my take on the original ram. Im sure many will disagree but Ive counted alot of sheep and this is my thoughts. Lamb tips are never much more that and inch or two.


So what you're saying is the growth chart above pertains to a "bighorn" sheep herd with "poor" genentics and their ram lambtips average 10cm? But now you're saying that lambtips are never more than an inch or two(2.54-5.08cms)?
Somethings not computing.

SSS

[Crazy_Farmer]

I was trying to figure out where I'd seen this picture before then I remembered I took it. lol Didnt it turn out that this sheep got shoot just before the season closed? And was underage?


Sorry guys but the ram pictured by the OP is not 8.5... If you really think he is 8.5 then how old is this controversial ram...? GoatGuy blasted everybody but is too afraid to enter his own guess? I am calling 7 and a bit, take some pics and let him go!

http://members.shaw.ca/stevensml/hunting/sheep3_800x600.jpg

[moose2]

I am going with 6.5 I don,t think there is much length lost on that small broom.

[stoneguide]

So what you're saying is the growth chart above pertains to a "bighorn" sheep herd with "poor" genentics and their ram lambtips average 10cm? But now you're saying that lambtips are never more than an inch or two(2.54-5.08cms)?
Somethings not computing.

SSS


Never said the genetics were poor. I said the herd is so isolated it needs rams brought in to bring in new genetics. With out it their is no genetic diversity and pretty soon there is no sheep on the mountain that arent related.
People think that ram mountain is like anywhere else in bighorn country and are efected the same. Well they arent. They have minimal safety from predators and have been hit really hard by cats. The population is very small and the area they live is very small with minimal forage.
Just stating that comparing the average bighorn range with Ram Mountain is pretty much a waste of time.

As far as the ram in the picture I still give him 8 1/2 with him being 7 1/2 for sure depending on the one age at the base.
But hey what the hell do I know about sheep anyways.
SG

[GoatGuy]

Never said the genetics were poor. I said the herd is so isolated it needs rams brought in to bring in new genetics. With out it their is no genetic diversity and pretty soon there is no sheep on the mountain that arent related.
People think that ram mountain is like anywhere else in bighorn country and are efected the same. Well they arent. They have minimal safety from predators and have been hit really hard by cats. The population is very small and the area they live is very small with minimal forage.
Just stating that comparing the average bighorn range with Ram Mountain is pretty much a waste of time.

As far as the ram in the picture I still give him 8 1/2 with him being 7 1/2 for sure depending on the one age at the base.
But hey what the hell do I know about sheep anyways.
SG

There were/are signs of inbreeding on Ram mountain so....... you could say the genetics are/were poor.

[stoneguide]

There were/are signs of inbreeding on Ram mountain so....... you could say the genetics are/were poor.

And that is why they transplanted some young rams from Cadomin. They were trying to get things straightened out but a bunch of these rams were poached and left towards the nordegg end of this mountain.
SG

[bigwhiteys]

As far as the ram in the picture I still give him 8 1/2 with him being 7 1/2 for sure depending on the one age at the base. But hey what the hell do I know about sheep anyways.

You've already shown us how much you know... Much more than anyone who might be posting here.

Carl

[bighornbob]

To compare horn growth from one area in alberta to another in BC is about as useless as can be. There are alot of different variables that effect the different areas and horn growth.
SG

Have you actually done a lot of sheep glassing/hunting of the Region 3 bighorns, becuase you cant compare them to Alberta.


I have used your picture and I agree with what you are calling annuli, or how I also count them. But a lamb tip can easily be 6 inches around here. So what you added as horn is probably true but that is all lamb tip.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep5.jpg


I have added the blue lines and the ages at each line. As per your quote above you cant copmpare these guys to Alberta bighorns.

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Never said the genetics were poor. I said the herd is so isolated it needs rams brought in to bring in new genetics. With out it their is no genetic diversity and pretty soon there is no sheep on the mountain that arent related.
People think that ram mountain is like anywhere else in bighorn country and are efected the same. Well they arent. They have minimal safety from predators and have been hit really hard by cats. The population is very small and the area they live is very small with minimal forage.
Just stating that comparing the average bighorn range with Ram Mountain is pretty much a waste of time.

As far as the ram in the picture I still give him 8 1/2 with him being 7 1/2 for sure depending on the one age at the base.
But hey what the hell do I know about sheep anyways.
SG

So when you said the ram lambtips are always between 1 and 2 inches, were you referring to thinhorns, bighorns or both??

SSS

[6616]

Have you actually done a lot of sheep glassing/hunting of the Region 3 bighorns, becuase you cant compare them to Alberta.


I have used your picture and I agree with what you are calling annuli, or how I also count them. But a lamb tip can easily be 6 inches around here. So what you added as horn is probably true but that is all lamb tip.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/sheep5.jpg


I have added the blue lines and the ages at each line. As per your quote above you cant copmpare these guys to Alberta bighorns.

BHB

Alex, I think you are perfectly correct in the final age judgement, but looking at it by a different method, I think the annuli you have marked as the 2nd is much too big in diameter for a second annuli and I think that is actually the third annuli formed at 2 1/2 years of age, assuming first annuli is formed at approx 6 months of age, second at approx 1 1/2 years of age, third at 2 1/2 years of age, etc. I know this is actually the same thing you are saying, just using a little different method of aging.

This would make the one you have marked 5th as formed in his 5th rut at approx 5 1/2 years of age at that time. The one you have marked 6 doesn't actually exist yet as it will be formed this fall during the rut at which time he will be 6 1/2 years old. Thus if the picture was taken recently (June 2010) he is currently 6 years old.

I believe there is about 2 inches broomed off the lamb tip which would have made the total length of the lamb tip about 4 inches before brooming and 4 to 6 inchs is typical for bighorns lamb tips in my observation. I have also witnessed many lamb tips 6 inches in length, even a little more sometimes, in the KHC herd.

[bighornbob]

Alex, I think you are perfectly correct in the final age judgement, but looking at it by a different method, I think the annuli you have marked as the 2nd is much too big in diameter for a second annuli and I think that is actually the third annuli formed at 2 1/2 years of age, assuming first annuli is formed at approx 6 months of age, second at approx 1 1/2 years of age, third at 2 1/2 years of age, etc. I know this is actually the same thing you are saying, just using a little different method of aging.

This would make the one you have marked 5th as formed in his 5th rut at approx 5 1/2 years of age at that time. The one you have marked 6 doesn't actually exist yet as it will be formed this fall during the rut at which time he will be 6 1/2 years old. Thus if the picture was taken recently (June 2010) he is currently 6 years old.

I believe there is about 2 inches broomed off the lamb tip which would have made the total length of the lamb tip about 4 inches before brooming and 4 to 6 inchs is typical for bighorns lamb tips in my observation. I have also witnessed many lamb tips 6 inches in length, even a little more sometimes, in the KHC herd.


Yes you are kind of correct. I always start my count at one (the first annuli past the lamb tip) and count to the base (even though there is not an annuli there). Your way you are basically starting at 2 and ending on the last visable annuli. Regardless we both come to the age of 6. One just has to remember not to confuse the two ways (starting at 2 and ending at the skull). I have a friend that gets the same ages as I do but does not even count annuli but the horn between the annuli. Like I said it comes to the same age.

BHB

[bruin]

I don't understand why you're not calling his lamb tip Yr 1. Is it not his growth from birth-1st winter?

[boxhitch]

One ring = one year
One growth segment = one year, except
1/2 for a lamb tip + 1/2 for base segment = one year
start at the tip or start at the base
It all gets to the same result
6.4, 6.6, 6.8 doesn't matter, its all 6 years of age.

Works for me

[bruin]

Fair enough

[proguide66]

Isnt the 'CI' only going to count the rings????.......to each their own with aging..for me with some guys fanta$y hunt needing to come true..i'm counting RINGS..i'm not really concerned with seasonal growth,the length of a lamb tip...ONLY RINGS...hopefully not needing to count anything...no room for 'guessing'...counting rings should be the only thing for newbies to worry about..

[6616]

Isnt the 'CI' only going to count the rings????.......to each their own with aging..for me with some guys fanta$y hunt needing to come true..i'm counting RINGS..i'm not really concerned with seasonal growth,the length of a lamb tip...ONLY RINGS...hopefully not needing to count anything...no room for 'guessing'...counting rings should be the only thing for newbies to worry about..

I don't actually think counting rings is a good choice for newbies, too difficult, too many opportunities for error, I always tell newbies to go by horn length and forget trying to count rings, just my opinion....!

[proguide66]

good point !...the regs even state to NOT count rings...it is a toughy to learn on your own......its my easy 2 bits for pages and pages of the usual sheep banter:razz: , it is however all the ministry is going to be concerned about at the end of the day if it isnt over the shnoz...( I slipped up , back to blacktail topics for me,:oops::lol:)

[BCrams]

I don't actually think counting rings is a good choice for newbies, too difficult, too many opportunities for error, I always tell newbies to go by horn length and forget trying to count rings, just my opinion....!


X 2

Going by horn length is a good practice to adhere to.

[6616]

One ring = one year
One growth segment = one year, except
1/2 for a lamb tip + 1/2 for base segment = one year
start at the tip or start at the base
It all gets to the same result
6.4, 6.6, 6.8 doesn't matter, its all 6 years of age.

Works for me

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

[GoatGuy]

I don't actually think counting rings is a good choice for newbies, too difficult, too many opportunities for error, I always tell newbies to go by horn length and forget trying to count rings, just my opinion....!


Isnt the 'CI' only going to count the rings????.......to each their own with aging..for me with some guys fanta$y hunt needing to come true..i'm counting RINGS..i'm not really concerned with seasonal growth,the length of a lamb tip...ONLY RINGS...hopefully not needing to count anything...no room for 'guessing'...counting rings should be the only thing for newbies to worry about..

Funny, seems like it should be easy, especially for the 'pros', but this thread shows us it isn't. Quite a few different opinions including a handful of 'guides' who are a ways out.

Always good learning.

[6616]

Funny, seems like it should be easy, especially for the 'pros', but this thread shows us it isn't.

Yep, every thread we've ever had on here about counting sheep annuli illustrates that point very well.

[boxhitch]

Happens also when you get a thinhorn pro trying to use experience to judge a bighorn, or viza verza.
Knowing what is expected growth for the local of whatever sheep helps alot.
Couple that with the fact no one really spends much time looking carefully at young rams for details.

Should the 8 yr rule be tossed from the regs ??

[GoatGuy]

Happens also when you get a thinhorn pro trying to use experience to judge a bighorn, or viza verza.

Yes, you can really see this coming out in the past couple years on here.


Knowing what is expected growth for the local of whatever sheep helps alot.
Couple that with the fact no one really spends much time looking carefully at young rams for details.

Should the 8 yr rule be tossed from the regs ??

Most of the problem is just education (bit of ego, but not much you can do about that) and could be solved.

[6616]

Happens also when you get a thinhorn pro trying to use experience to judge a bighorn, or viza verza.
Knowing what is expected growth for the local of whatever sheep helps alot.
Couple that with the fact no one really spends much time looking carefully at young rams for details.

Should the 8 yr rule be tossed from the regs ??

I don't like the 8 year rule and it was tossed in R4 due to too many illegal rams being shot, however, if the number of illegal rams being shot in a region is not a problem or a conservation concern why change the rules. There will always be a few illegal rams killed every year no matter what the rule, horn length, or age. If it's a conservation concern toss it, if it's not why worry about it...?

[bearslayer01]

u guys have no idea man i just drew 4-08 sheep tag chance of a l;ife time thats right salmo sheep boo ya i hope to shoot a big one for sure

[willy442]

Not afraid of a guess, just trying to help some folks figure it out with pictures.

Your old man took most of the brunt of it if I recall correctly and it was, as always, well deserved. :wink:


I'm sorry motor mouth but as of yet, the crown has failed to win the age war on this Ram. They are still grasping at straws trying though. Lets just wait on the out come and see who deserves what.:)