LEH Shared Moose Draw

[Mugger]

Here is the question I have. I have recieved my third Shared Moose draw in three years, 3 guys for two Bulls. Great yes but I do not understand the way the system works when they say you will be reduced by 50% for the next three years in the draw. HOW DO THEY DRAW FOR THE REDUCED ODDS. I am not complaining but it is a bit unfair for the rest of the guys who are trying year after year.

[SR80]

You must be putting in for an area that has good odds, while others that never get drawn are putting in for areas that have bad odds.

[308Lover]

SR80 that's pure BS. I have 23 years with no tags for deer or moose. I know ALL there is to know about applying--(and don't give me the black ink crap either LOL) This system in B C is all screwed up since it was farmed out. It's done by a private company now. There is really no accountability. And yes--I have a right to bitch--I live in region 7, so a tag for me is impossible, it would seem, while others get multiple tags. Go figure!

[MuleyMadness]

:roll: First of all 308, that is pure BS...it's not screwed up, it's completely random chance, end of story. Nothing is screwed up, and your lack of success has nothing to do with the people who input the data (and this is from someone who's had 4 draws in 15 years). Besides 308, where are you putting in for (and I know 7a hasn't been on a draw for bulls for 23 years, seems like more about 5 years, and 7b is still GOS)...if you want to hunt moose open season maybe a drive up the road a couple of hours is all that's needed.

The reduced odds work as such:

when you are successful, for the next 3 years your odds (and those of the people who were drawn with you) have a 50% less chance of being drawn for that same species, regardless of area or sex. Think of it as half a ticket instead of a full one (because it is a lottery).

It's not really that complicated, and while your odds are reduced, it doesn't make getting a draw impossible (I got drawn the last two years for moose tags, but not this year).

Yes it makes it harder to get drawn again, but that seems fair to me, nice to give another hunter a slightly better chance, though I agree that 3 years does seem like a bit long.

[swamper]

Sorry to say Muley, but you are a bit off base on the 7A thing. I have been hunting there since I moved to Quesnel 26 years ago and there has been a LEH for bulls for as long as I can remember. I have had a few draws in that area over the last 20 years. The biggest thing about our area is that it is so accessable for people heading north to hunt moose. The odds are relatively high, 6:1 in some areas. According to the annual harvest reports, the area that I hunt, 7-8, is heavily hunted. And mostly by folks from out of our area.
I believe the draw is random as I have been drawn 2 times in the last 3 years for moose in 7-8. We have to remember that the number of applications for any hunt is pretty high. In 7-8 there are 115 bull tags available and at 6:1 odds, that computes to 690 appications for this small area alone. I know people that seem to get drawn every year, but they are putting in for units with 2:1 or less odds. Simple mathmatics.

[MuleyMadness]

While that is entirely possible swamper, I seem to remember hunting bulls and cows in the region a lot more recently than 20 years ago with no draws. Though it could have been the northern end of region 5 (was some time ago now)...for sure at the time I remember a 7 day cow season and a much longer any bull, only a couple of hours from PG...perhaps some parts had GOS and others on leh?

Even still, looking at the leh authorizations it seems it has far and away the best overall odds for any region and I suspect it would be GOS if not for the beetle kill and all the decreased cover and improved access that comes with the kill...but after 23 years and no luck, I think I would be just heading up to the GOS in 7b...though my original point stands, the system is not screwed up and it's not the people who do the data entry that are at fault for 308's poor results.

[257stew]

:roll: First of all 308, that is pure BS...it's not screwed up, it's completely random chance, end of story. Nothing is screwed up, and your lack of success has nothing to do with the people who input the data (and this is from someone who's had 4 draws in 15 years). Besides 308, where are you putting in for (and I know 7a hasn't been on a draw for bulls for 23 years, seems like more about 5 years, and 7b is still GOS)...if you want to hunt moose open season maybe a drive up the road a couple of hours is all that's needed.

The reduced odds work as such:

when you are successful, for the next 3 years your odds (and those of the people who were drawn with you) have a 50% less chance of being drawn for that same species, regardless of area or sex. Think of it as half a ticket instead of a full one (because it is a lottery).

It's not really that complicated, and while your odds are reduced, it doesn't make getting a draw impossible (I got drawn the last two years for moose tags, but not this year).

Yes it makes it harder to get drawn again, but that seems fair to me, nice to give another hunter a slightly better chance, though I agree that 3 years does seem like a bit long.






I personally know of one case where a friend applied for a hunt with roughly 1:1 adds. You would think "slam dunk" no problemo. Guy still got nil,but another fellow had that area as second choice and got it.
So IMHO their could be a slight room for improvement to the system. I know way to many people that get nil and others who get every few years and I am talking same area not different.

[308Lover]

Why is it that the first advice you get on not getting a draw is that you didn't apply for regions where your chances of success would be greatest. Not only is that a degrading answer(since it makes one look stupid) but it is not true in my case.As my hunting partners can attest I've tried all the best zones, including one near Vladivostok (waaaaay up north) without success. It happens that a friend of mine has done poorly as well. MY POINT IS THAT AFTER 23 YEARS IT'S NOT THE LUCK OF THE DRAW.! I wrote a letter to the department again this year thinking they had me on an iterdict list (non-payment of fines etc.--totally untrue) and have not received a reply.
PS The usual Vancouver crowd scored TWO bull moose tags near my cabin. (Same group). That's painful.There is SOMETHING fishy here.(OR GAMEY. lol)

[308Lover]

I did not state that the data people were screwed up, but am referring to a point in history where my success rate disappeared--(-about the time they took over.) Many people (no proof of course) are of the opinion that the farther people travel to hunt the more benefit they are to the economy.(Thus my meeting everyone from the Island and Lower Mainland each year. My hunting partner (who is waaay smarter than me says it's just because more people apply from the big cities.) And by the way--a drive of 1000 miles is NOTHING to me for the love of hunting---so the remark about me maybe driving down the road a ways is a bit over the top.Now then---what was this thread about?Just my rant? It's the same rant as last year.Sorry.

[reach]

The lack of accountability is a problem. There is no good way to know whether it's your error (filling out cards incorrectly), MOE contractor's error (incorrect data entry) or simply a long string of bad luck. 23 years of NIL would be a little frustrating.

It would be nice if there was a way to retrieve both a scanned image of your card(s) and the resulting data from their database, to verify whether the card was legible and the data entry was done correctly.

As per polls on this site, approximately half of the people get at least one draw each year. That really makes me wonder if you're doing something wrong.

On the plus side, if they ever get around to implementing electronic entries, that removes a lot of room for errors.

[reach]

I personally know of one case where a friend applied for a hunt with roughly 1:1 adds. You would think "slam dunk" no problemo. Guy still got nil,but another fellow had that area as second choice and got it.
So IMHO their could be a slight room for improvement to the system. I know way to many people that get nil and others who get every few years and I am talking same area not different.
Was he on reduced odds from a previous successful draw? If so, it's likely his application was passed over. If the odds were over 1:1, they randomly discard some of the applications from people who were previously successful.

Also keep in mind the odds listed in the synopsis are LAST YEAR'S odds. They may be better or worse when the draw is actually run. There is no way to predict this.

[Gateholio]

I did not state that the data people were screwed up, but am referring to a point in history where my success rate disappeared--(-about the time they took over.) Many people (no proof of course) are of the opinion that the farther people travel to hunt the more benefit they are to the economy.(Thus my meeting everyone from the Island and Lower Mainland each year. My hunting partner (who is waaay smarter than me says it's just because more people apply from the big cities.) And by the way--a drive of 1000 miles is NOTHING to me for the love of hunting---so the remark about me maybe driving down the road a ways is a bit over the top.Now then---what was this thread about?Just my rant? It's the same rant as last year.Sorry.

Absolutely ridiculous conspiracy theory.

The reason more Lower Mainlanders get drawn is because there are MORE of them applying for the same tags you are.:-D

Most of the LEH's I've got have been closer to home than further.

If the "drive far" theory is correct, why dont' all the Van Isle elk tags go to Northerners every year?:wink:

[Moose Guide]

Sorry to say Muley, but you are a bit off base on the 7A thing. I have been hunting there since I moved to Quesnel 26 years ago and there has been a LEH for bulls for as long as I can remember. I have had a few draws in that area over the last 20 years. The biggest thing about our area is that it is so accessable for people heading north to hunt moose. The odds are relatively high, 6:1 in some areas. According to the annual harvest reports, the area that I hunt, 7-8, is heavily hunted. And mostly by folks from out of our area.
I believe the draw is random as I have been drawn 2 times in the last 3 years for moose in 7-8. We have to remember that the number of applications for any hunt is pretty high. In 7-8 there are 115 bull tags available and at 6:1 odds, that computes to 690 appications for this small area alone. I know people that seem to get drawn every year, but they are putting in for units with 2:1 or less odds. Simple mathmatics.

My old regs show some gos all through the 90's in 7a, I stopped looking after fall 97

[Ted]

So would you prefer a system like Alberta where you get one after so many years of applying guarenteed. I think the system definately needs work but like any lottery some will be lucky. Or how many apply for 4-5 LEH's hoping to get one and get two or three that year while none the previous years - so they only go for one of the LEH hunts. maybe in the scenario there should be an option to recant you less favorite LEH hunt to another lottery hunter so you will not have your odds reduced for those particular hunts. At least the Gov't came out with the results much earlier this year. A small step in the right direction - change takes time esp with Gov't.

[Moose Guide]

Why is it that the first advice you get on not getting a draw is that you didn't apply for regions where your chances of success would be greatest. Not only is that a degrading answer(since it makes one look stupid) but it is not true in my case.As my hunting partners can attest I've tried all the best zones, including one near Vladivostok (waaaaay up north) without success. It happens that a friend of mine has done poorly as well. MY POINT IS THAT AFTER 23 YEARS IT'S NOT THE LUCK OF THE DRAW.! I wrote a letter to the department again this year thinking they had me on an iterdict list (non-payment of fines etc.--totally untrue) and have not received a reply.
PS The usual Vancouver crowd scored TWO bull moose tags near my cabin. (Same group). That's painful.There is SOMETHING fishy here.(OR GAMEY. lol)

Have you tried the shared hunt option? It works great for me(shared hunt gets increased odds) 4 cards trying for 2 tags

[bighornbob]

The lack of accountability is a problem. There is no good way to know whether it's your error (filling out cards incorrectly), MOE contractor's error (incorrect data entry) or simply a long string of bad luck. 23 years of NIL would be a little frustrating.

It would be nice if there was a way to retrieve both a scanned image of your card(s) and the resulting data from their database, to verify whether the card was legible and the data entry was done correctly.

As per polls on this site, approximately half of the people get at least one draw each year. That really makes me wonder if you're doing something wrong.

On the plus side, if they ever get around to implementing electronic entries, that removes a lot of room for errors.

The main guy from the LEH people spoke at the Wild Sheep Society weekend and he said almost a 1/4 of all cards sent in are incorrect. They try and contact people to clarify things up (my dad once got a call as they could not read one of his numbers, asked him what unit he wanted to apply for).

He also said people phone them up all the time after the draw and question why they got such and such draw when they never applied for it. He said they will retrieve the original card and look it up while on the phone, and guess what the hunter has usually put down the wrong number.

Reading some of the responces every year from people thinking there's a conspiracy against them or locals in favour of out of towners makes me wonder if these people are actually smart enough to fill the cards out right.

BHB

[Slinky Pickle]

makes me wonder if these people are actually smart enough to fill the cards out right.

BHB

I bet that won't draw any comments :mrgreen::mrgreen:

[308Lover]

I bring in a hunter, a professor of psychology, a drunk, a hand-writing specialist, a black-ink pen rep, a retired CO, and a woman who has never hunted (she thinks outside the box). Usually (since I'm also a geographer) I bring in a map consultant to figure out the ones in the LEH Handbook. Then I phone Lenny the bookie for odds quotations. We fill out the cards. After they're sent, we drink and swear we should have gone for the group thing---so I had cards mailed from Haida Gwaii, thinking about distance and hardship and the economy. Now three other guys are mad at me too--along with the LEH "Gods".
Tell me again about "Karma"?

[308Lover]

Thanks Reach. When the hunter names were posted in the paper or whereever there sure as heck was accountability then let me tell you! The guides and a few others whined about privacy--so they dropped it. It should be TRANSPARENT. After all, this resource belongs to me too. God knows I've bought more tags in 50 years than many people ever will. Wonder why I did that.

[22savage]

If 1/4 of the leh draws are spoiled that would be 41,250 draws out of this years leh All I can say is wow!!!!!

[MuleyMadness]

I personally know of one case where a friend applied for a hunt with roughly 1:1 adds. You would think "slam dunk" no problemo. Guy still got nil,but another fellow had that area as second choice and got it.
So IMHO their could be a slight room for improvement to the system. I know way to many people that get nil and others who get every few years and I am talking same area not different.

Well that is all part of the random chance part of it...remember the odds are NOT for the year you are applying, but the previous year, the number of authorizations indicate only how many tags are given out this year...nothing to do with odds.

I agree odd things happen all the time with LEH (think of my friends wife who has her 3rd bull moose draw in 3 years, all in high odds regions) but that doesn't mean something sinister is afoot or it's not fair to everyone.

And 308...you have had horrible luck..that just sucks, but like I said, I have only had 4 draws in 15 plus years and don't consider that something must be wrong, maybe my luck just sucks too.

The people from far away get all the tags nonesense is because of one thing...more people in the Fraser Valley and lower mainland are applying for tags all over the province, hence more of them get drawn...if they weren't then you WOULD have a conspiracy for sure.

[cloverphil]

I won a shared moose draw for bull and this is only my second year ever putting in for anything
last year was a nil outta 3 this year I'm 2 for 3

[Bowzone_Mikey]

this year I got a draw 1st in 3 years ... A guy I work with got a shared draw ..3rd time in 3 years .. another guy I work with got nil .. 1st time in 5 ...another guy got nil ...1st time in 3 years ... another guy got a draw ..2nd in 6 ...

whatever .. qwityerbellyachin

[Sitkaspruce]

My old regs show some gos all through the 90's in 7a, I stopped looking after fall 97

That must be for only certain areas. I moved up the "The Fort" back in '95 and received my first moose draw that year.

And as others have said, the far away gets more tags stuff is BS. Must be a NYMBY thing.

While living in "The Fort" I received 9 moose draws in 12 years, all in 7-26 (filled all 9 tags as well). Since I started putting in for LEH, I have only pulled a NIL 5 times, including this year. It's all about luck!!!!

The LEH is a lotto and if you base your season around the ups/downs and disappointments of the draw, you are really missing out on some great hunting this province has to offer.

Cheers

SS

[257stew]

I personally think if more people put in for first choice then there are tags nobody who put in the same hunt as second choice should get drawn. But from what I have been told the "computer" runs down the list of first choice applicants and then if it has not given out all the tags then it goes straight to the second choice columns, and that it does not have the ability to go back down the first choice column.
I believe this is what happened to my buddy I mentioned in a previous post.
20 people apply for a hunt with 10 tags then the lucky hunters should be picked from the list of 20.

[chevboy1978]

Well I finally got a draw on a shared hunt for a moose! I've been putting in for the last 16 yrs since my last draw. I think the only reason I got the tag is because I put in with my girlfriend who took her core last fall. It's her luck not mine.

[reach]

I personally think if more people put in for first choice then there are tags nobody who put in the same hunt as second choice should get drawn. But from what I have been told the "computer" runs down the list of first choice applicants and then if it has not given out all the tags then it goes straight to the second choice columns, and that it does not have the ability to go back down the first choice column.
I believe this is what happened to my buddy I mentioned in a previous post.
20 people apply for a hunt with 10 tags then the lucky hunters should be picked from the list of 20.
Sorry but that doesn't make much sense. If someone put the same code in for first and second choice, they would have been picked on the first pass through if there were fewer applicants than authorizations.

If there are more applicants than authorizations, there will be no second pass - all the tags will be given out before the first pass is finished. The second choice is guaranteed to never be used if it's the same as the first choice. It is a waste of a second choice to do it that way.

In fact, there is zero point in entering a second choice for any hunt that you expect to have first choice odds worse than 1:1. If there are more applicants than authorizations (odds worse than 1:1) for that hunt, all the tags will be given out to people who selected it for their first choice.

I'm sure somebody will pipe up saying "hey, my brother's friend's cousin's dad got the Kamloops sheep draw as his second choice" but the only way that can happen is human error - either filling out the cards or when they punch it in to the computer.

[257stew]

Sorry but that doesn't make much sense. If someone put the same code in for first and second choice, they would have been picked on the first pass through if there were fewer applicants than authorizations.

If there are more applicants than authorizations, there will be no second pass - all the tags will be given out before the first pass is finished. The second choice is guaranteed to never be used if it's the same as the first choice. It is a waste of a second choice to do it that way.

In fact, there is zero point in entering a second choice for any hunt that you expect to have first choice odds worse than 1:1. If there are more applicants than authorizations (odds worse than 1:1) for that hunt, all the tags will be given out to people who selected it for their first choice.

I'm sure somebody will pipe up saying "hey, my brother's friend's cousin's dad got the Kamloops sheep draw as his second choice" but the only way that can happen is human error - either filling out the cards or when they punch it in to the computer.




You are obviously not getting what i am saying. Look into it and ask someone in Victoria that is involved in the draw system. I was privy to the info received by a friend who did just that.This is going back 20 or so years but at that time we were told that the computer does not know how many first choice applicants there are. It randomly starts down the list and picks #'s(each applicant is issued a #,if your # is pick,you receive a draw).When it gets to the end of the list it aotomatically goes to the "second choice" column and continues giving out draws.

So 20 people can apply(first choice) for a hunt that has 10 authorizations available. At the end of the 1st choice list it has only given out 8 authorizations, it does not go back thru the list...it can't,not set up that way. The last 2 authorizations will be given out to the list of applicants with that chosen hunt as their second choice.
To me this should not happen, all 10 hunts should be given to 10 of the people who applied for that hunt as their first choice.
Now maybe things have changed because it was a few years back that we got this explanation or someone in a position to know was just blowing smoke up our behinds to give us a believable answer and have us/our problem go away.
I do not know if after the second choice list is done, any authorizations not given out are just given out to people who have applied for the species in question or not. I do know of people getting low odd hunts in areas they did not apply for.
So this is what obviously happened to my buddy. applied for a hunt and odds were better than 1:1 and he got nil while another friend got the same hunt but it was his second choice. So there is some hope of applying for a hunt as your second choice even though you know the odds will/might be higher than 1:1,Otherwise nobody would put a second choice in.
Start asking around and see how many people ever get/got their second choice hunt and if they bothered to look at that hunts first choice odds the following year in the LEH paper.

[reach]

You are obviously not getting what i am saying. Look into it and ask someone in Victoria that is involved in the draw system. I was privy to the info received by a friend who did just that.This is going back 20 or so years but at that time we were told that the computer does not know how many first choice applicants there are. It randomly starts down the list and picks #'s(each applicant is issued a #,if your # is pick,you receive a draw).When it gets to the end of the list it aotomatically goes to the "second choice" column and continues giving out draws.
I fully understood what you're saying. It may have been true 20 years ago but it doesn't agree with what the MOE has posted on their web site. This document goes into excruciating detail about how the draw is run.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/resident/docs/leh_system.pdf

Basically it does two passes through all applications looking only at the first choice hunts - one pass where it throws out a portion of "flagged" applications (those who had been previously successful), then another pass where it ignores the flags. Every application's first choice is looked at. There is no way there would be tags left over if there are more applicants than there are tags.

Once all that is done they go through again looking only at second choices. Second choices can only be given out if there were tags left over after all the first choice dust has settled, i.e. only if the first choice odds were better than 1:1.

The only scenario where a first choice would not be awarded is if it's a group application and there are not enough tags left to give one to everyone in the group. In that case the whole group is passed over. If that happened it is possible for the first choice odds to be slightly worse than 1:1 but a second choice application might end up with the last tag or 3.

Some oddities can also be explained by errors in data entry. If they fat finger the hunt code (or if you do when filling out the cards) then all bets are off. They could mistakenly enter the second choice in the first choice field or something. I can only imagine how mind numbingly boring the data entry of all those 165,000 cards would be so I imagine there must be a few errors. We've all heard of people being awarded hunts they had no intention of applying for.

[Drillbit]

I'm with 308
NIL for everything for as many years as I can remember applying.

Something might be BS, but nobody will ever be able to prove it. The only thing I notice, that is a good thing, is that every first year hunter number people I know get an LEH the first year they apply. they seem to be prefered somehow.

I don't mind travelling all over the country to hunt, I just hope I can hunt on my own property one day.

[hunter1947]

I would consider your self very lucky getting drawen 3 years in a row.
Unfortunately there is very little you can do to change the LEH system .
The only thing you could do is don't put in for next year ,this will give others a chance to get the draw :wink:..

[CanuckShooter]

I'm with 308...the system sucks, one of my hunting partners just got big bull moose 7-10 again....that makes 4 out of 5 years in a row!!!! This type of thing should never be allowed to happen while others that are applying for the same hunt get NIL year after year after year. There is no fairness at all to the current way the leh is being managed, and apparently there is no intent to change it either...:icon_frow

[Jordo]

Have you tried the shared hunt option? It works great for me(shared hunt gets increased odds) 4 cards trying for 2 tags
This seems to be working for our group too.

[bushpig slayer]

it's all bs i hunt with 5 guys 2 to 3 of them always get something but me and another guy get nothing same area same time,mailed same time too so i can't figure that one out.the only luck i have is that the are my hunting partners,so i still get meat.but i don't think it is right!

[watson721]

I think it is faulty. I applyed for a doe draw this year and the odds were 1:0.4 and I didnt get it

[257stew]

I think it is faulty. I applyed for a doe draw this year and the odds were 1:0.4 and I didnt get it




When you check on line it does not give the odds(i do not think). When you get your mailed copy it will show the odds. A lot of people will apply for low odds hunts so this year it may be greater than 1:1 while last year it was 1:0.4. If not then what I have been saying about the "computer" going thru the first choice list and not giving out all the tags and then moving on to second choice list "may" be true. No way you should have not received a draw if less people applied for first choice than there are authorizations available. Unless of course someone made a mistake or you used the wrong colour pen. lol (which in this day and age may be true too)

[Gateholio]

I think it is faulty. I applyed for a doe draw this year and the odds were 1:0.4 and I didnt get it

Those were last years odds:wink: