asking a hunter to take you hunting illegal?

[drivintrucks_shootinbucks]

I have just been informed it is illegal to ask a resident hunter to take myself (a resident hunter) hunting. Would it be illegal if it was in my truck and I paid the gas? I looked in the regs and did not see anything stating so. In my way of thinking, it isn't any different than a friend saying "hey can you take me hunting to your secret hunting area so I can shoot a deer" or watever...i am confused. :-?

[Gateholio]

Illegal if it is for compensation. Legal if it is not....

[lip_ripper00]

I have just been informed it is illegal to ask a resident hunter to take myself (a resident hunter) hunting. Would it be illegal if it was in my truck and I paid the gas? I looked in the regs and did not see anything stating so. In my way of thinking, it isn't any different than a friend saying "hey can you take me hunting to your secret hunting area so I can shoot a deer" or watever...i am confused. :-?


Hey dude want I should come up their an show you some GREAT hunting spots in 7-23 A, B?:mrgreen: And their is something wrong with this?:confused:

[drivintrucks_shootinbucks]

well i had asked if any cougar hunters could take a person out hunting. I said i would pay gas (meaning take my truck i wouldn't make them pay half) and i was informed by someone that it is illegal, to go see my local guide and hunts start at $5500. i editedthe post to say i was looking for info instead, because i don't want to look like someone who hunts illegally

[Barracuda]

Ok Hounding is a bit differnt in so much as it is a hot button issue .

Hounders tend to be scrutinized by many so even the act of paying for thier fuel can be seen as compensation for hunting with thier dogs.

The shareing of costs on a hunting trip is one thing but when someone offers to cover all costs I/ we have to decline.

[buck nash]

Paying for gas that was used on the hunt wouldn't be a problem imo. At the end of the hunt he has not come away with any monitary gain, or favour etc. If you gave him a $50 gas card or offer to paint his house you would violating the rules.

[boxhitch]

Guides would be the one to point out the illegality, they don't want the competition.
There is a difference between working for compensation and the sharing of expenses between friends. If charges were to be laid, the courts would sort out the grey area.

[drivintrucks_shootinbucks]

i kinda felt a fool after he said it was illegal, as I did not see it as being anything illegal nor do i want to do anything illegal. Barracuda, you make a good point. I do hear a lot of people harping on the people that hunt with hounds. Guess I just have to wait for that unfortunate cat to walk out in front of me lol.

[.330 Dakota]

It is really sad to see the "scarcity mentallity" that some guide/outfitters have in this province. There is lots of game for everyone as long as everyone has conservation in mind and it is important to each and every one of us. I have heard of outfitters blocking roads and yelling at resident hunters that they have camps here so you shouldnt be hear etc. All I can say is WOW, get over yourselves, you knew the rules of the game before you got into the biz. Dont like the rules then get out and do something else

[Trapper]

Nothing illegally about paying for the gas or sharing the the cost of the hunt,as long as you don't compensat them for the hunt.Some guys are ready to jump all over you for the littlest thing on this site.
Good luck

[GoatGuy]

I'd call the COS and see.

In terms of 'reward' paying for the gas only accounts for about 1/4-1/2 of the expenses of operating a vehicle, not to mention the cost of the hounds etc.

Guess what I'm saying is there's really no monetary reward to the houndsman if you're paying for his gas he's still losing money.

Better yet load him and his dogs up in your vehicle. Bring him lunch.

It is true that g/os have reported hound hunters but it's just that a report. Never heard of anything substantial coming of it.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

There are a few bad apples that guide illegally with ther hounds. This guys tend to give the rest of us a bad name. Then there are the resident hunters that offer compensation to these type of houndsmen and they are equally at fault. There is one fellow who is regularly guiding illegally in my area. The CO's know about it and try to keep an eye out for this but with lack of funding it is tough to spend enough time at it to get a conviction. He is always just taking out a friend.

[budismyhorse]

I'd call the COS and see.

In terms of 'reward' paying for the gas only accounts for about 1/4-1/2 of the expenses of operating a vehicle, not to mention the cost of the hounds etc.

Guess what I'm saying is there's really no monetary reward to the houndsman if you're paying for his gas he's still losing money.

Better yet load him and his dogs up in your vehicle. Bring him lunch.

It is true that g/os have reported hound hunters but it's just that a report. Never heard of anything substantial coming of it.


so then what becomes deemed "compensation"?

What if hunters are "trading" services......? Dry wallers trade for hound hunts? as one example.......

[boxhitch]

....... There is one fellow who is regularly guiding illegally in my area. The CO's know about it and try to keep an eye out for this but with lack of funding it is tough to spend enough time at it to get a conviction. He is always just taking out a friend.Local friends or out of province friends ? Sounds like he needs a talking to.

[pete_k]

Illegal if it is for compensation. Legal if it is not....

Boils down to how compensation is defined.

[GoatGuy]

so then what becomes deemed "compensation"?

What if hunters are "trading" services......? Dry wallers trade for hound hunts? as one example.......

Dunno, would contact the COS and see (probably better asking a lawyer to be honest). Don't think a 'trade' would work as that would be at least 'equal' in terms of value. Should have paid more attention in law class.

The trick is the legal definition of compensation.



Cost-sharing and/or taking 'your' truck would probably be the easiest way to avoid the hassle.

[BlacktailStalker]

so then what becomes deemed "compensation"?

What if hunters are "trading" services......? Dry wallers trade for hound hunts? as one example.......

This is such a fragile subject...
It is deemed illegal, services and monetary gain are the same thing.

I've taken a couple guys out just to experience it and take pics but I never have understood why they always try to put their rifle in my truck, "You won't be needing that" :lol:

trapper; as for jumping on people, there is no "too firm" of reply regarding legalities so why let it run its course before it gets out of hand, for the sake of houndsmen and for the site.

Driving trucks...; just coincidence but this topic has been beat to death before so hope you didnt take it personal.

[budismyhorse]

I try to keep lawyers out of my life as much as possible....but thanks.

I think as usual, it all comes down to the sliding scale of judgment. If you are taking out guys you don't know for money.....you are in trouble.....

If you are taking your actual friends and they pay for gas or dog food????? You are ok.

however, if you and your buddy are just out paying each others gas.....no CO in the world will come down on you.

[MB_Boy]

Just asking a question as there does seem to be some "grey area" and it's just my own curiousity. Not trying to stir the pot at all. :confused:

As an example; if I befriend someonne on HBC who runs hounds and he says he'll take me out hunting with him. I offer to pay for the gas/expenses etc for the duration of our trip; it is deemed illegal guiding? At what point does it end up as two friends out hunting vs illegal guiding?

What if I was to ask someone if I could go bird hunting with them as I wanted to see their dog work when birding, be it pointer/retriever and I would pay for the gas in their truck/boat? Is that considered illegal guiding?

I am just curious as to the rules/laws and where the line is drawn?

[budismyhorse]

Sliding scale MB Boy.......sliding scale.

In Japan they say "The nail that sticks up.....gets hammered down."

both of those examples are deemed illegal.....but does the nail head stick up far enough to get hammered???? Your judgement and risk/benefit analysis.

my guess would be NO.

it would really depend on the OTHER person's actions in your examples.......if they were doing it ALOT or to the point where everyone knows that is what they do.......you would be fried in the same pan as him if they ever were brought in.

[MB_Boy]

Sliding scale MB Boy.......sliding scale.

In Japan they say "The nail that sticks up.....gets hammered down."

both of those examples are deemed illegal.....but does the nail head stick up far enough to get hammered???? Your judgement and risk/benefit analysis.

Interesting........and thank you for the clarification. It sure does seem like a sliding scale as you mention.

And believe me.....I am not trying to stir anything up but just find it pretty "grey". Whether I "meet" someone online or not, but I am going duck hunting with a buddy; we take my truck and my dog (who retrieves all of the birds) but he says "I'll pay for gas" could this almost be deemed as illegal guiding?

Is it having the dog(s) that pushes the legality issue or other factors? I am just thinking if it's not "just" because of dogs then looking for "mentors" or "partners" or "someone to show me the way" could also be deemed illegal guiding? What if a "newb" offered to pay for the gas for me to take him/her out and show them the ropes and try to get them an animal?

Or is it ultimately offering the "services" of using a dog(s) for the purposes of harvesting/retreiving/finding game?

[budismyhorse]

Interesting........and thank you for the clarification. It sure does seem like a sliding scale as you mention.

And believe me.....I am not trying to stir anything up but just find it pretty "grey". Whether I meet someone on line or not, but I am going duck hunting with a buddy; we take my truck and my dog (who retrieves all of the birds) but he says "I'll pay for gas" could this almost be deemed as illegal guiding?


by the strict definition of "compensation", it is.

They are paying for your service.......gas in return for your experience and dogs....

But again, that is not a situation where CO's have the time, nor the judgement to actually go after something that trivial.

however......if the dog runner does it alot and someone complains.....

[budismyhorse]

Is it having the dog(s) that pushes the legality issue or other factors? I am just thinking if it's not "just" because of dogs then looking for "mentors" or "partners" or "someone to show me the way" could also be deemed illegal guiding? What if a "newb" offered to pay for the gas for me to take him/her out and show them the ropes and try to get them an animal?

AHHH, different story.

The dogs would be a "cost" you incur annually..........therefore the only reason you would accept "gas money" is to offset that cost...

there isn't much tangible "cost" to knowledge that you have any will be imparting on the newbie hunter.......therefore while still likely illegal......on the sliding scale of grey area is so far to one side no CO in the world would take you to task on it.......

Unless you did it all the time and offset your costs of hunting largely through mentorship......but that isn't part of your example.

[GoatGuy]

Remember it's not about what a CO says, it's about what the law decides. :wink:

[budismyhorse]

very true...........

which is why the grey area is so large and why so few people actually get charged with this.....

I know of a few "sketchy" situations out there, and they don't go down......because you would have to build a rock solid case to make it stick.....and that isn't easy, or worth it 99% of the time.

not putting the cart in front of the horse......if the CO doesn't get into a tizzy about it.......the "law" will never have the ability to "decide".:mrgreen:

[BlacktailStalker]

No competent, successful, knowledgeable houndsmen who values what they have is going to take some stranger out for $50 in gas to kill a cat.

You add up the $ in fuel to MAKE those dogs what they are, the cost of each dog, the shots, the vet bills in the past, the $3000 worth of telemetry, gps tracking equipment and tritronics the dogs are wearing, the TIME to make these dogs with the experience necessary and you've got a dog worth about $10,000 in funds to replace(cant put a price on time) EACH to me that still might get disembowled by a pack of wolves, shot by some yahoo, run over, lost, crippled/killed by a cat,etc,etc.
Then what, buddy goes home, "Thanks, sorry about the dog(s) eh? Here's $50 bucks."

Most guys would rather run that cat again.
Takes a real good guy to be able to stand running around in a truck or on a sled all day with him and harvest a cat, IMO, a brother or close friend/hunting partner. There are a lot of variables involved, like, is this guy a pussy, is he going to get too tired to make it "up there" in 2' of snow to the bottom of the heli slash?Am I going to have to pack him out, because hes whining and staring at me like a 3 legged dog 50' below me...
Is he going to hump hills all day in 2' of snow to help me get my dogs back even though there might not be a tree at the end of the day ?
If he's soaked to the bone is he going to worry about hypothermia,being tired and it getting dark out BEFORE he realizes these dogs need to make it back to the truck tonight? Its snowing out hard and not supposed to let up, its going to dip down to -15 tonight... Might not be able to get back to them again tomorrow...
If we dont get them back tonight, is he going to call in to work to say he isnt going to make it in so he can help me get to them the next day ? Day after that? His obligation is just $50, sh!t, I never went over all this with him...
98% of guys are there for the glory and not the b.s that goes with it.
If hounds were easy, there'd be one in every other yard.
Thats why hunts cost so much ;)

[GoatGuy]

very true...........

which is why the grey area is so large and why so few people actually get charged with this.....

I know of a few "sketchy" situations out there, and they don't go down......because you would have to build a rock solid case to make it stick.....and that isn't easy, or worth it 99% of the time.

not putting the cart in front of the horse......if the CO doesn't get into a tizzy about it.......the "law" will never have the ability to "decide".:mrgreen:

It's always easier being on the good side of the COs.

Having said that the grey is large with the COs, it won't be with the law.

My guess is if you split the gas, and the houndsman was going to go hunting anyways you'd be good to go.

If compensation is as strict as you're saying just paying for 50+1% of your buddies gas would be illegal. Also taking a buddy who was drawn for grizzly tag with your gear and accepting money for gas would be considered illegal.

[Benelli FanBoy]

...98% of guys are there for the glory and not the b.s that goes with it....

I would say 99.9%, its human nature.

Who wants to deal with b.s.? You would obviously choose not to deal with it if you had a choice!

[835]

so then what becomes deemed "compensation"?

What if hunters are "trading" services......? Dry wallers trade for hound hunts? as one example.......


Trading in this fassion happens all the time, I see no problem with it at all. As a ex sportfishing guide you see this all the time.

Paying for gas is not bad either. If the cat hunter wants to go cat hunting with a stranger and the stranger pays gas who cares. If the cat hunters gas bill is a few hundred dollars then it is not right.

Taking someone out hunting and having them pay your gas is not illegal, And if someone was to press it what do you think a judge would say when you told him " i payed 90 bucks gas" SEIZE HIM!!!!!! THROW HIM IN THE DUNGEON!!!
Get real

[SHACK]

Yup Im with you on this one 835, just too much "reading between the lines" going on with this one. You have not done anything illegal by asking if someone was willing to take you hunting, and you would pay your share of the trip...or all of it for that matter. Come on now, do you think an officer is going to pull you over and fine you for not having the apropriate licences and insurance if someone said they were looking for a drive to the Vancouver, or anywhere for that matter, and was willing to pay for fuel? I can see the officer now..."well your honor, I fined the driver for not having his taxi cab licence! I was able to identify the offence because of the lack of a turbin on the driver"
Far, far too much willy nilly babling about what is actually not an issue at all IMO.

[budismyhorse]

Trading in this fassion happens all the time, I see no problem with it at all. As a ex sportfishing guide you see this all the time.

Paying for gas is not bad either. If the cat hunter wants to go cat hunting with a stranger and the stranger pays gas who cares. If the cat hunters gas bill is a few hundred dollars then it is not right.

Taking someone out hunting and having them pay your gas is not illegal, And if someone was to press it what do you think a judge would say when you told him " i payed 90 bucks gas" SEIZE HIM!!!!!! THROW HIM IN THE DUNGEON!!!
Get real

I think we are all in agreement about this.

except I think the letter of the law would state it IS illegal....in the same way that driving 1 km/hr over the speed limit is technically illegal.

both are trivial and would not likely gather much attention from the law...

[835]

You are i am sure correct.
Not only that but for a cat hunter to take a compleate stranger met here on HBC,,, that would be about as likely as being prosicuted for paying gas :)

[Barracuda]

yes and no

there are a few guys that will take a person("Friend") out hounding for gas money .
Now gas money can be several hundred dollars very easily and the hounder might justify it as more hunting time for them that they normally could not afford.

If you factor in the cost of training and equipment this is very little money but it is compensation nonetheless . What is the reward for the hounder ?
The chance to hunt more and it has the same risk to him and his dogs as if he was hunting normally.

This could be a bit of a grey area or an acceptable situation by the CO but if it happens all the time and cats are being taken by all of his "friends" then this will get the attention of the CO (not to mention other houndsmen).




Now there is also the guy that does the gas thing and all that goes with it + a trophy fee(gift) with said "friend ".

This is crossing the line but is very difficult to nail them so i think the CO very often lump all in the same catagory .



Not every houndsman is ethical or gives a crap about his dogs beyond its earning potential .
There are a couple of hounders that have been nailed yet still manage to weasle out or disregard the laws .

the other thing you have to remember is that you can have your hunting priviledges revoked and it is a reverse onus situation which could be very costly.

[Jim Prawn]

My take on it is that the law law is there in order to prevent large scale black market guiding - that is, someone repeatedly taking "guests" out hunting for direct monetary gain. Theoretically this would include trading of services, but without invoices, cheques (paper trail) this would be difficult to prove. A big part of the experience of hunting and fishing is learning from others and sharing ideas and information - you show me yours and I'll show you mine. I dont believe (or at least I hope) that there is no intention of the Conservation Officer Service to persue charges against individuals taking there buddies out to there "secret" spots, even if they are paying for gas &/or lunch.
Im going to have another beer now.
Jim Prawn
PS If anyone wants to know my secret fly for big rainbows in Elk Lake they'll have to take me cougar hunting first!

[drivintrucks_shootinbucks]

i talked to a Conservation Officer today. My question exactly was "If I get someone with hounds to take me cougar hunting, and I pay for all the gas, and do not collect half the fuel money from him, is it illegal, as any extra fuel from the hunt is in my tank for my use". His answere was no, it is not illegal, as there is no gain to the houndsman. As long as the houndsman has a cougar tag as well, which they need to pursue cougars as they are technically involved in hunting, everything checks out ok.

After reading these posts I do find it interesting all the different points of views and scenerios, and understand it could be taken as a very grey area. Learn somethin new everyday I guess

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I have taken friends out for bear and cats but these are guys that I hunt with and have a history with. If I can't prove the history of the friendship I really make sure I cover the costs. This year my long time hunting buddy took a Booner tom and the next thing I know I was guiding off the guide territory. Rumors get flying , the next thing you know you are explaining yourself to the CO's. Who needs the hassle?

[dougal]

this is all about interpretation and semantics its the same issue as saying hay could you go hunting with me and I will pay for the gas in your truck. the person with the truck gains the leftover fuel so now he is a guide. I helped one of my hunting partners put a new roof on his house could that be seen as compensation as we use his truck ?

[Bear Chaser]

No competent, successful, knowledgeable houndsmen who values what they have is going to take some stranger out for $50 in gas to kill a cat.

You add up the $ in fuel to MAKE those dogs what they are, the cost of each dog, the shots, the vet bills in the past, the $3000 worth of telemetry, gps tracking equipment and tritronics the dogs are wearing, the TIME to make these dogs with the experience necessary and you've got a dog worth about $10,000 in funds to replace(cant put a price on time) EACH to me that still might get disembowled by a pack of wolves, shot by some yahoo, run over, lost, crippled/killed by a cat,etc,etc.
Then what, buddy goes home, "Thanks, sorry about the dog(s) eh? Here's $50 bucks."

Most guys would rather run that cat again.

Takes a real good guy to be able to stand running around in a truck or on a sled all day with him and harvest a cat, IMO, a brother or close friend/hunting partner. There are a lot of variables involved, like, is this guy a pussy, is he going to get too tired to make it "up there" in 2' of snow to the bottom of the heli slash?Am I going to have to pack him out, because hes whining and staring at me like a 3 legged dog 50' below me...
Is he going to hump hills all day in 2' of snow to help me get my dogs back even though there might not be a tree at the end of the day ?
If he's soaked to the bone is he going to worry about hypothermia,being tired and it getting dark out BEFORE he realizes these dogs need to make it back to the truck tonight? Its snowing out hard and not supposed to let up, its going to dip down to -15 tonight... Might not be able to get back to them again tomorrow...
If we dont get them back tonight, is he going to call in to work to say he isnt going to make it in so he can help me get to them the next day ? Day after that? His obligation is just $50, sh!t, I never went over all this with him...
98% of guys are there for the glory and not the b.s that goes with it.
If hounds were easy, there'd be one in every other yard.
Thats why hunts cost so much ;)

Good post.
I think it also belongs in the thread where there was mention of using dogs as cheating. IMO using dogs may occasionally yield big rewards first time out on a bear mostly it is way more hassle. That said I really miss the sound of a good pack of hounds baying a bear.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

BTS, good post. I took a buddy out for a cat once. Now I have hunted deer with this guy for about 15 years so you think you may know him. I put down on a fresh tom track and followed the dogs, he decided he would stay higher on the mountain a parallel the dogs. After 2 miles of easy going the tom was treed. After an hour of sitting at the tree taking pictures I pulled the dogs off and headed for the truck as he never showed up. I found him sitting on a stump having a smoke waiting for me to come back. What a pussy. I lost a lot of respect for him that day. My son put it best to him. "That will be the last time you go cat hunting with my dad as you obviously don't deserve a cat!!!"

[digger dogger]

heres what i do to avoid the guiding thing.
if i don't know you, and you ask i will say no.
if you are family absolutly no question, or a friend for more than 10 yrs no prob.
if there is no history between us sorry, but i can't take ya to kill a cat/bear. cat hunting could be very lucrative. i get asked all the time (could you take me for a cat) thats why the c.o's are hard on the guys that take out "friends" if i was a c.o i could pull a couple guys story apart if they really didn't know each other.. long term friends and family are o.k for me. that way there is no grey area..
i was told when i had got my 1st hound not to do this for any kind of money, do it for the love of hunting, and dogs.. it opened up a whole new hunting world for me and my kids, we love it.. well maybe not 10 piles of shit every day but we take turns. lol

[moose2]

I am not sure but I think the best way to do this without breaking the rules. Is to trade hunts for example: I meet someone on this site that has access to cougar hunting. Then we agree to do a split cost 2 week hunt for stone sheep , moose , caribou , goat or what ever in my spots, and later on in the winter we split the costs on a cougar trip. This is a good way to get to know people that love the same sport as you do. I was once told that a stranger could be the best friend or hunting partner that you haven't meet yet.
Mike

[Ltbullken]

Nothing illegal about what you propose! Sharing costs is not illegal and it is not compensation. Go ahead and hunt with your friend! If someone says it's illegal, tell 'em to play hide and go f**k themselves!! :-D

[Bear Chaser]

Nothing illegal about what you propose! Sharing costs is not illegal and it is not compensation. Go ahead and hunt with your friend! If someone says it's illegal, tell 'em to play hide and go f**k themselves!! :-D

Good advice. How would anybody new ever get into hunting at all if they didn't get invited out and offer to share in the costs?

[pnbrock]

id go anytime and you guys paying for the gas sounds even better..lol