Bear stopper

[sammy-j-peppers]

......................................

[shoot to kill]

bow, gun? rocket launcher? hire a bigger bear to scare it away?

[timbermilton]

45-70, far better than a 12g, in my opinion.

[peashooter]

you are allowed 2 bears per season. why not shoot one with each and see which one dies better.

[elkdom]

the BEST "bear stopper" is a garbage can !,,,

they just cant pass one up!:cry:

as for 45-70 or 12 gauge, neither would be my preference, given a choice!,

[RJ]

Is this in a hunting scenario, or charging? Grizzly or Black?
Handloads or factory ammo?

[Slee]

Is this in a hunting scenario, or charging? Grizzly or Black?
Handloads or factory ammo?


Best hair EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[.330 Dakota]

That picture makes me squirm

[Gateholio]

375 Ruger:wink:


I'd rather have the 45/70, but my 14" barrel 870 with the short buttstock is more compact, so I'm more likely to carry it. Even better is my 16" barrel Mdl 94 Trapper in 45 Colt.

[Tanya]

Well I can testify that a 12g with 2-3/4" shell full of OOB will drop one hit broadside at 7 yards.:-D


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v290/TRV58/2003_Bear_008.jpg

However which is best, I wouldn't bet on.

[elkdom]

Well I can testify that a 12g with 2-3/4" shell full of OOB will drop one hit broadside at 7 yards.

so will a 30-30,,,:wink:

[Bluedsteel]

45/70 guide gun is pretty fantastic for that purpose. Huge variety of loads, lever action is quick, huge knock down power for such a small rifle. Not so good for long range though. Very happy with it!

[boxhitch]

Not so good for long range though.Kidding, right ?
A 45/70 is great aaalllll the wwwaaayyyy out to 200 yards !!

[todbartell]

gimme a 45/70 over a 12ga

[mrc]

I think RJ and John Daly are long lost relatives.........not really sure about the question though.

[Slime green cat]

45/70 would be my choice .... but that 47/70 sounds interesting :confused:

[Barracuda]

neither . but if I had to choose, i would choose a 12 with brenneke's .


Lever guns are so not cool any more :mrgreen:

[6 K]

Does not matter. Hit the bear in the right place. Stopped charge.
Personally, I would not recomend buck shot though.

[Schutzen]

Howseabout one of these lil puppies!
Point it in the right direction tho or your whole days ruined. :>)
http://tech.military.com/equipment/view/88702/m18a1-claymore.html

[BiG Boar]

12 guage with stock. I have hit 1000s of moving clays and zero with a 45/70. More experience/ more comfortable/ faster reloading for me. Slugs and confidence.

[Johnnybear]

Lever guns are so not cool any more :mrgreen:

They were cool before any of us were born and still are so get the fad thing out of your head:-D.

[GoatGuy]

If you get one of these you can pack two guns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR3RFTiIIAs



And grow a sweet beard that your woman can braid for you.

[boxhitch]

- Tyler Serle, Albuquerque, British Columbia Doesn't show up in my map book ???
Are Hammerheads even sold in Canada ?

[eaglesnester]

A 12 will kill a bear for sure but is not my first choice, I do believe a 30/30 has more stopping power than a shotgun. A 45/70 will do the job but I prefer a 375 for DG. A shotgun is better than holding you johnson in your hand when push comes to shove but not much. The grizz that ate T Treadwell and his girlfired up in the Katmi in Alaska was shot twice in the head with a twelve bore and the slugs bounced off. This was found out during the necropsy the was done on the bear after he had been put down.

[835]

There was a report done a few years ago. Bc out doors printed it back when they were one magazine.

Article was about this subject. They tested everything 30-06-.375, 12ga etc. The intent was to be used as protection in the bush against the ever mean GRIZZ.

The study came up with a 12ga 3" slug ssg combo. Reason being two fold. The guy packing the shot gun was able to put it in a quiver on his back and it wasnt too heavy. People tended to put the rifle down and walk away from it like they did in the cowboy movies of old. We all know that is when the injuns get ya!
The second reason was the rifles had too much energy at 20yds and in most cases the bullet just flew through, Unless it hit major bone. The 12 ga slug hits like a freight train at 20-yds and all its energy is used within the bear.

Slug ssg combo is @#$% its a bear! damn he is running at me.... Boom!
If you miss this shot the bear is at your feet so you require a bit of pattern...... Cylendar bore does pattern a bit and at this point a bit counts.
If the bear is still comming at this point he is now on top of you adn you are placing the muzzle on his hide so the slug might be good here.

This is what i read in BC outdoors, This is why i have a maverick 88.
This is also my opinion take it as you wish and i hope none of us ever need to find out which is better!

[thebigrig]

I find some of the post on here funny. Has anyone here shot a tree with 3" cheapo federal slugs? I find it hard to believe that a 30/30 does more damage.:?

[835]

I find some of the post on here funny. Has anyone here shot a tree with 3" cheapo federal slugs? I find it hard to believe that a 30/30 does more damage.:?

Thats because it doesnt......at 20' not much beats a 12ga slug of any make

[Gateholio]

Thats because it doesnt......at 20' not much beats a 12ga slug of any make

Lots beat it. Not just a few rifle cartridges but LOTS. A 45/70 loaded up with a heavy hard cast bullet will...SO will a .375, 416, 458, etc etc...

You dont' see African PH's carrying shotguns with slugs to put down unruly hippos!:-D

[835]

That is true,
but a hippo is a bit of an acception. What i read was more pertaining to the whole thing. Namely you might want to put the .470NE down while you are fishing. But the 12 stays with you. Err if i had any nitro of any kind it would never touch dirt, but nor would i go fishing with it either.

[TurtleGod]

If it were me I would have to go with a 12ga. I am fast with the pump action.

Never shot a 45-70 so I couldn't say any in it's defence. I guess that's an excuse to buy one. I do like lever gun.

[boxhitch]

Bullet Barn bullets are similar hardness, just not as heavy.
Maybe someday
For now the 405 gr gas checked listed looks just fine.

[sniper ren]

What do you guys think about the 7mm......160grn bullets....haha...... I was wondering if I was going to have to use it last year with a close encounter with a Grizz. I would rather the 45/70 option though!

[TyTy]

12 gauge: bird shot (for noise - first defense), then 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug, 00 buck etc... cannot miss. If you were to carry a shotty with a pistol grip; kneel on one knee to get you barrel level with a charging bear. and practice this.

[Kody94]

470 Mbogo

http://470mbogo.com/Videos/Aimedrapidfire.mpg

[elkdom]

12 gauge: bird shot (for noise - first defense), then 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug, 00 buck etc... cannot miss. If you were to carry a shotty with a pistol grip; kneel on one knee to get you barrel level with a charging bear. and practice this.

a shotgun with a pistol grip, handy to carry, short and light,,,BUT???,:confused:

they are extremely uncontrollable(inaccurate) even in the most forgiving circumstances,,,

much less in the hands of someone startled and under attack from a raging Bear !
leave the pistol-grip shotguns for Hollywood Fame!:?

[dougal]

neither . but if I had to choose, i would choose a 12 with brenneke's .


Lever guns are so not cool any more :mrgreen:



that hurts my grandpas got a great old 300 savage scout that would knock your boots off
45-70 all the way

[bruin]

Raging bear, I would rather have a 12 ga. w/ slugs, I think I am a more effective shooter with it at close range. All around gun probably a 45-70 because it can reach a bit if you need to and is still relatively fast.

[moosinaround]

If I have said it once, I have said it a MILLION TIMES!!! A Holy Hand Grenade!!!!!! Pull the pin and toss it at thine enemy!! Moosin




If that fails use a 12ga!:wink:

[gitnadoix]

side by side in the exact same situation hitting the same bear in the same spot the 45/70 would probably most often win the contest between the two. But no 2 events and or bears are ever the same. So it would best be what ever you personaly have the best chance of making 1 and your first shot right through the spine so it goes down NOW. So buy a couple of hundred rounds of 405 or 450 hard cast from the bullet barn for your 45/70 load em up and practice practice practice,,,,,cause.... well its fun.....

[hunter1947]

My vote is a 12g..

[Bow Walker]

If - and it's a big IF - I were to put myself in the position of having to/wanting to carry a bear defender I think that I'd go get a semi-auto shotgun, with a 3" chamber and customize/cut it down so that it could be deployed quickly. I'd then load it with magnum shells. I'd do the SSG/slugs combo and then (if I needed to use it) I'd learn a really, really quick and effective prayer.

[Gateholio]

I cobbled this shotgun together for carrying in the bush, but I must say I prefer carrying my 45 Colt Trapper Mdl 94 better. The shotgun is a close second, though

Top shotgun is a Mossberg 18" barrel. Bottom one is a 870 clone wiht a 14" barrel, Hogue Youth butt stock and a home made blade sight. Short light and reasonably powerful, it's a good option, I think.:mrgreen:


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs516.ash1/30402_430579515515_526315515_6153049_3892847_n.jpg

[Bow Walker]

Everyone has (or suggests) a pump. Why not a semi-auto? They're just as reliable, these days, as pumps are.

[tristanmac]

Pump 12 Ga packed with slugs!

[Gateholio]

Everyone has (or suggests) a pump. Why not a semi-auto? They're just as reliable, these days, as pumps are.

Who sells a 14" barrel semi in Canada?:-D

[Kudu]

Lots beat it. Not just a few rifle cartridges but LOTS. A 45/70 loaded up with a heavy hard cast bullet will...SO will a .375, 416, 458, etc etc...

You dont' see African PH's carrying shotguns with slugs to put down unruly hippos!:-D


Ever been after a wounded cat in the bush? leopards are especially things of joy - try it - it will change your life. http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/Gogga2/tease.gif

Show me the PH that doesn't pick up the good old shotgun loaded with ssg or brenneke slugs........


Plain and simple. we want it dead.............. but how????

I would take the shotgun every time, as other have said - firstly familiarize yourself with the weapon, shoot - shoot again and then shoot some more, before going into grizzly bear, or any area holding dangerous animals.

[Gateholio]

Ever been after a wounded cat in the bush? leopards are especially things of joy - try it - it will change your life. http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/Gogga2/tease.gif

Show me the PH that doesn't pick up the good old shotgun loaded with ssg or brenneke slugs........

There is a shortage of Leopards in BC, so no, I haven't. A leopard is much more lightly constructed than a grizzly bear, though.

[Devilbear]

I used to carry a shotgun when running large crews in silvicultural work in the Kootenays, but, could only buy Imperial "Foster" type slugs and, after tests in stumps, I went back to a rifle.

I would say I have seen about 60-75 bears killed, only shot one wounded one and this includes maybe a dozen Grizzlies. I have had and carried a LOT of "purpose-built" Grizzly guns while working remote L/Os and so on and have sold off almost all of them.

I now have a Browning 1886SRC-45-70 with XS "ghost and post" sights and it shoots 400 HC, 405 Kodiaks or 405 SAFs at 1900 and holds 8 rounds and feeds like silk. But, I have never been able to shoot levers as well as bolts and I want to sell this, as I am getting old and never use it now.

I have a custom P-64 Mod. 70 20"-.375H&H with 300NPs at 2400 and this is IT for bears. I can shoot it well, am used to it's "controls" and the round is beyond criticism for any game. I now carry this and nothing else and am totally satisfied.

I have some Brenneke slugs for my Merkel drilling in 12-12-9.3x74R and, with my handloaded 286NPs at 2400, this will work, but, it is too fragile and costly for BC mountain conditions, so, I am going to sell it, too.

I have a 12 ga. Benelli Nova, best pump I have ever had and that is quite a few, but, no slug will equal a .375 H&H on a Grizzly, IMO, and buckshot is worthless and only good for "bad guys".

MY budy just shot a nice Grizzly with a .416 Remington and this definitely WORKED! Lot of gun to carry all day, tho'.

[Kudu]

There is a shortage of Leopards in BC, so no, I haven't. A leopard is much more lightly constructed than a grizzly bear, though.


I hear you mate,

Since you don't have intimate knowledge about the spotted one, let me help you - just in case, you find yourself walking down a foot path in the Zambezi valley one day......

The old spotted one loves eating Baboons, in fact it is said to be his favorite dish.

What old spotty does, is sit nice and tight on a branch, trust me it is very hard to spot him if you don't know what to look for.......

He will drop down onto the Baboon, just as soon as it walks by underneath, the front claws will reach over and grab the back of the Baboons scalp - and peel it over his face - thus blinding him, at exactly the same time the hind legs will disembowel the poor creature, by riping downwards with its claws from ribs to pelvis - thus spilling its guts.

And old spotty does all of this when he is in good mood, imagine how he reacts when he has some clowns misplaced shot in his guts, and he is hurting........

Now old spotty only gets up to about 75 or 80 kgs on average, but let me tell you he moves faster than anything you have ever seen, and when he comes at you with four sets of razor sharp claws and a mouth full of teeth, you will wish you where back in BC............ washing the stains from your boxers.

But then again you will be armed with that nice shotgun of yours, loaded with ssg - old spotty wont live to see another day.

Now if you want to have intimate knowledge about the other five big buggers out there, feel free to ask away. Their may be a place for the 375 Alaskan yet - nyati comes to mind!

[yukon john]

shot a smaller black bear with 5 slugs and 1 load of 00 before it died, I wasnt overly impressed with penetration, seen a 45-70 drop a good size griz in 20 yards with 1 shot. Still prefer a 338 though

[Devilbear]

If, I could only have ONE rifle or even firearm for all of BC, AB and the "Territories", it would be my favourite of my six .338s, loaded with 250NPs. If, I was smarter, I would keep a pair of them and sell off all the others I have........but............ ;)

[Bow Walker]

Who sells a 14" barrel semi in Canada?:-D
Why couldn't a fella re-work a nice semi auto into great 'defender' gun? A little ingenuity, a bit of bar stock, some glue, and viola! A defender to count on when times are tough.

[Gateholio]

I hear you mate,

Since you don't have intimate knowledge about the spotted one, let me help you - just in case, you find yourself walking down a foot path in the Zambezi valley one day......

The old spotted one loves eating Baboons, in fact it is said to be his favorite dish.

What old spotty does, is sit nice and tight on a branch, trust me it is very hard to spot him if you don't know what to look for.......

He will drop down onto the Baboon, just as soon as it walks by underneath, the front claws will reach over and grab the back of the Baboons scalp - and peel it over his face - thus blinding him, at exactly the same time the hind legs will disembowel the poor creature, by riping downwards with its claws from ribs to pelvis - thus spilling its guts.

And old spotty does all of this when he is in good mood, imagine how he reacts when he has some clowns misplaced shot in his guts, and he is hurting........

Now old spotty only gets up to about 75 or 80 kgs on average, but let me tell you he moves faster than anything you have ever seen, and when he comes at you with four sets of razor sharp claws and a mouth full of teeth, you will wish you where back in BC............ washing the stains from your boxers.

But then again you will be armed with that nice shotgun of yours, loaded with ssg - old spotty wont live to see another day.

Now if you want to have intimate knowledge about the other five big buggers out there, feel free to ask away. Their may be a place for the 375 Alaskan yet - nyati comes to mind!

Probably won't be an issue for me. I don't see myself hunting leopards any time soon.

I do have a bit of bear knowledge though. Wouldn't want to use SSG on any bear except at 10 paces or less, and even then I'd rather have a slug or a 45/70 or even better- a -375 Ruger:wink:

[Gateholio]

Why couldn't a fella re-work a nice semi auto into great 'defender' gun? A little ingenuity, a bit of bar stock, some glue, and viola! A defender to count on when times are tough.

Could do , but you'd have to find a manufactured 14" barrel semi, can't modify them to that length. Or if you want, you can chop a semi to 18" barrel.

[srupp]

For this issue I must defer to THE expert Gary James Sheldon...and he makes some most interesting commentary..

1)scrap the pistol stock..hard on the wrists, lousy aim,doesnt allow a second shot near the first..we are used to aiming a full stock

2)no warning shots..the gun is working so dont allow that warning shot to maybe jam the shotgun

3) Sheldon DOES endorse shotguns fo defense..he had a favorite I cant remember..it wasa Police model??

4)nothing but slugs. PERIOD! leave the 000,00 etc for birds and rabbits

Gary goes on with more guidance...I HIGHLY RECOMEND HIS BOOK,,it is EXACTLY dealing with this issue.



I have a pump Winchester with fibre optic sites....full stock, no sling, loaded..no plug..its not hunting its defensive...

Srupp:mrgreen:

[Gateholio]

For this issue I must defer to THE expert Gary James Sheldon...and he makes some most interesting commentary..

1)scrap the pistol stock..hard on the wrists, lousy aim,doesnt allow a second shot near the first..we are used to aiming a full stock

2)no warning shots..the gun is working so dont allow that warning shot to maybe jam the shotgun

3) Sheldon DOES endorse shotguns fo defense..he had a favorite I cant remember..it wasa Police model??

4)nothing but slugs. PERIOD! leave the 000,00 etc for birds and rabbits

Gary goes on with more guidance...I HIGHLY RECOMEND HIS BOOK,,it is EXACTLY dealing with this issue.



I have a pump Winchester with fibre optic sites....full stock, no sling, loaded..no plug..its not hunting its defensive...

Srupp:mrgreen:

For shotguns...

Pistoil grips are a poor second choice, but you *CAN* train yourself to use them effectively. BUt a full stock is all I'd ever have. I'd rather have my shorty 14" shotgun with one less shell than a pistol grip.

Warning shots are something I did before I read Sheltons book:wink:

Slugs, slugs and more slugs...Brenneke slugs are the top of the line, and Challengers are pretty good , too , I hear. But any slug is a better tthan buckshot...:wink:

[Bow Walker]

I think that's what I'd do for a 'bear' gun. I'd find a semi-auto and cut it down to size.

I just had a thought, though. By cutting the barrel down to 18" or 20" I'd most likely ruin the accuracy of the gun when shooting slugs. Or maybe accuracy is highly over rated at close range?

So I guess the thing to do would be to try and find a proper shorter barrel for the semi, or go for what the majority here recommend and get a pump action. Although I can see a problem trying to work the action when your pants are filling with fertilizer!

[Gateholio]

Shorter barrels are not inherently less accurate, although shorter barrel s give you less length to sight down.

Really not an issue for a shotgun designed ot be deployed at 20 yards, though.:mrgreen:

[Bow Walker]

Understood. But I was thinking about accuracy out of a cut-down (home stlye hacksaw) smoothbore barrel shooting slugs. Any thoughts?

[Gateholio]

Understood. But I was thinking about accuracy out of a cut-down (home stlye hacksaw) smoothbore barrel shooting slugs. Any thoughts?

If the cut is square and the muzzle chamfered evenly, it shouldn't affect accuracy for the distances you will need it for. MIght be easier to just buy a pump gun with a short barrel already,though.:mrgreen:

I think Benelli makes a short barrel semi auto that some police use, now that I think about it.

[ytlogger]

I traded for an extra vent-rib for my 870. I decided to cut it off around 20". I cut it square and flush where the rib is bridged to the tube and cleaned it up with a file and the finest emery I had around at the time. I put some cold blue on it but it didn't take too well and I don't really care, I just put oil on it regularly. The vent rib is quick to aquire when shortened. This was only intended as defence and not for hunting, but it would probably be OK.

[emerson]

In the real world very few will run hundreds of rounds a year through any large rifle. Often the cost is the most prohibitive part. It's much more likely that someone can and will shoot that volume with a shotgun. If you MISS, it doesn't matter what monster cannon that cost $$$$$, you carry EVERY time you go in the bush. This spring I put 000 buck through and through a little 5' 8" blackie. Sure he was small, the shot was broadside, it was 25 yards or so, but also, he had no lungs left either. I will continue to carry my 835 with slug barrel (3" slugs) and knoxx stock for bear problems. It's amazing that anyone survived in the bush before elephant guns filled safes everywhere.

[ytlogger]

With all due respect, the OP asked," 12ga. or .45-70", not elephant gun. 45-70 has been around since the end of the U.S. Civil War and continues to be popular for good reason. If I had one I might be inclined to pack it for protection. Remember that a charging bear doesn't present a lot of broadside shots as a rule. I used to have a .444 Marlin that was just as handy to carry as my 870 with 20" barrel is now. I have no problem with my .338 either, but that was not the question.

[ytlogger]

Oh yeah, I agree about Gary Shelton's book. Everyone who spends time in the bush should read it. Never did believe in the warning shot as most bears I have encountered reacted more to a display from people, look big and make noise. By far, most of those bears presented a tail in the sight picture. I have known of birdshot being used carefully from a distance in thise situations ..."and don't come back".

[Devilbear]

As can be seen here, there are a number of acceptable options and many who consider what they might want may well learn from the posts here. I would and have cheerfully packed both 12Ga. and .45-70s and may again, but, I have other options I find work better for me.

For much of the '80s and '90s, until the NDPers on Burnaby City Council shut it down for idealogical reasons and lost any support I will EVER give "the dippers", as a result, I would shoot 2-3 times every week at Barnet Rifle Range and would go through 2000 and sometimes more rounds of .338WM, .375H&H per year plus .300 H&H and several smaller cartridges...several of my friends did the same and some of these work as prospectors and other bush jobs.

So, IMHO, IF you can FIND Brenneke slugs, use whichever of the two YOU find easiest to master and go to another option if it works better for you.

[chilko]

While bear expert Gary Shelton advocates the use of shotguns for defense, I'm always reminded of the sobering story of Terry Deline in his second book , who shoots a large grizzly at 7 yards with buckshot rendering it blind and subsequently puts 3 slugs from short distance into the bear yet 40 minutes later after being evacuated by chopper spots the bear from the air struggling up a slope.This account ( I admit the shotgun saved his ass) puts me in the 338/375 /45-70 camp.

[Devilbear]

Exactly, comments from older guys I knew and learned bush work from who had similar experiences were also what made me go to larger bore rifles. I also find a .338WM-250NP nicer to shoot than any "riot gun" with slugs and I have shot many examples of both.

Actually, a 20" crf 9.3x62 with 286NPs at 2400 is just about "perfect" and weighs about the same as a short shotgun, yet, is an extremely efficient load and quite easy to shoot well with minimal practice.

[Gr8 white hunter]

3 12g in our wall tent at night 1 defender 1 3in 1 2/34in all ready to go thats our bear stopper

[kootenayslam]

am I nuts thinking my 30-30 model 94 w/ 170 GRN hornadays will stop a charging Griz? Seems to pack a pretty decent punch to it..

[Joel]

It might stop it. But better to have a little more gun than be dead....

[d_j__c]

Has anyone try a slug called hexolit32? If you have how did you like them. If you have not you should take a look seems the have some knock down power.

[cmfic1]

I guided for several yrs. When doing baited hunts for 9 yrs I carried a defender shotgun, the last 2 yrs I carried a Marlin GG in 450 Marlin. The shotgun was most of the time loaded to shoot the first 2 with slugs, followed by 00 buck. If needed; thoughts being, at a charge from further distance one could aim fairly good with the slugs, as bear approaches (and pulse & adrenalin is through the roof) the buckshot will work...I know, I killed a charging black bear @ about 10 yards with the 00 buck, the 1st thing that hit the ground was his chin, he was DRT.

While guiding in the mountains of BC & YK (12 grizzlies), I carried a 338 for the 1st few yrs, then moved up to a 375 H+H, I could've & would've with confidence carried a 45/70 on them hunts.

Lets think of what the majority of Brown Bear guides in AK carry, It isnt a shot gun!

There is no place in my hands for a semi-auto of any kind in a potential life/death predicament...your choice though.

I dont for a minute believe a slug "bounced off" of a grizzlies head, as stated earlier!

In regards to PH's & Leopards, there are several polls & lots of reading to be done on the "Shotgun vs. rifle" scenario for backing up wounded Leopards, from what I have read and a few PH's I have talked to personally, I would say it is split down the middle....If I were chasing a wounded Leopard, I want a 12ga. pump in my hands.

IMO, the type of back-up weapon for Bears (Black or Griz) has more to do with the type of terrain and closeness of possible engagement & less to do with shotgun vs. rifle debate.

my .02

[358win]

Both will work well but this thread has left us guessing at the situation.
Long distance?
Charging Bear?
The answers can come fast 'n furious with us guessing.
Each gun has it's own merits.

[Moose Guide]

The grizz I stopped at twelve yards fell to a .338 wm, as to the poll, I would choose a .45-70 but I think the .338 is a much better choice

[madrona sh]

Glock 20 10mm auto....but it is not allowed. So I guess a shotgun.

[daywalker]

12 guage for up close and personal. Just look at a slug. Killed many a bear with this. But as people have said you hit the bear in the right spot with almost any gun it is lights out.

[Hunt'n Guide]

I've carried a 45/70 loaded with 405 gr Buffalo Bore's for a few years and never found it lacking in any way. Quick and handy to carry and kicks like a mule on both ends.