Moose calf season in Reg 7A

[Mooseman]

The moose calf general open season in Reg. 7A

What do you think? Is it a good thing or a bad thing. It is kind of nice to have this option when you don't have LEH, but is it going to cost us in the future or do we have enough calfs to ceep the population.

[Maxx]

I think that this is one of the dumbest season in the Reg's. What is the point of it, to slaugter enough calf's to keep the wolf population in check? Other than this reason , why else would they have this kind of season? It is a local decision made in the region, I wonder why no other regions have followed with this kind of season?


Poison the wolves, and let the calf's grow up IMO,

[Marc]

I've also heard that it's not just the wolves that they are worried about but calf mortality due to starvation. If there is a healty population of moose and it can handle the hunting pressure then what's the difference between shooting a calf moose for eating or buying veal at a grocery store.

Marc.

[tooty]

The reason also why they have have a short calf season is to take some pressure of breeding bulls in hope some hunters will take the calf instead.It does make sense in a way,but I think your limiting the age classification to older animals,because we are not seeing as much two point bulls as we did even ten years ago.So I don't care for it.But maybe they could have season everyother year???

[Mooseman]

The reason also why they have have a short calf season is to take some pressure of breeding bulls in hope some hunters will take the calf instead.It does make sense in a way,but I think your limiting the age classification to older animals,because we are not seeing as much two point bulls as we did even ten years ago.So I don't care for it.But maybe they could have season everyother year???

The amount of pressure on breeding bulls is regulated by a set anual allowable harvest Nr. (AAH) and is regulated by LEH and quota.
I think the higher number of calfs get taken by us guys that didn't get a LEH and have a hard time finding a 2 point.

By the way, only a limited amount of 1.5 year old bulls are 2 point in the Fall. Many or most have palmation and are just better genetics. So the age class of 1.5 year olds are only effected in part.

I know that so far the numbers are good and at save levels. I just noticed a lot of dead calfs last Spring that didn't win the tick battle. So if for some unknown reason the ticks go wild and hit them hard and the wolfs do more then usual and we have an open season on top of that, we might find out to late that we have a problem?

[moose hunter]

have only seen 2 2 points in my whole hunting life calf season is gt hit is here for good

[Maxx]

The amount of pressure on breeding bulls is regulated by a set anual allowable harvest Nr. (AAH) and is regulated by LEH and quota.
I think the higher number of calfs get taken by us guys that didn't get a LEH and have a hard time finding a 2 point.

By the way, only a limited amount of 1.5 year old bulls are 2 point in the Fall. Many or most have palmation and are just better genetics. So the age class of 1.5 year olds are only effected in part.

I know that so far the numbers are good and at save levels. I just noticed a lot of dead calfs last Spring that didn't win the tick battle. So if for some unknown reason the ticks go wild and hit them hard and the wolfs do more then usual and we have an open season on top of that, we might find out to late that we have a problem?

Exactly, why masacre the young ( weak) animals, when a hard winter, disease and predation will already affect them more than an adult animal. It seems stange to me, why not instead give more LEH tags for bull and cow- at least that can be regulated more than the killingof calfs in an open season. I would normally never promote more use of the LEH system- but for this case, it seems like a better way to manage the numbers.

[Maxx]

I've also heard that it's not just the wolves that they are worried about but calf mortality due to starvation. If there is a healty population of moose and it can handle the hunting pressure then what's the difference between shooting a calf moose for eating or buying veal at a grocery store.

Marc.

I highly doubt that it is starvation related, I cannot see a lack of food source leading the regional manager to open a calf season, that area has an abundace of feed.

There is no difference but the question was are we going to pay for this open season on calf's later? Why not let them grow up, and then you will have more meat to bring home.:D

[timber]

I spoke to the region biologist about this very question and he told me it is just for hunting opportunities ????????. You don't see farmers killing off all the young.I think more leh makes more seines at lest they will now how many are being taken.

[moose hunter]

i love this season my family would not have a moose ever year if it wasnt for this calves die because not enough food in the areas they are in

[moosecaller]

Taking a calf puts LESS of a toll on the population than taking a more mature breeding animal or one close to it. It has absolutly nothing to do with wolves or thier control. If you take a five year old animal out of the equation it will take five years to replace it, not to mention the potential of at least five to ten more offspring from that five year old animal that has been harvested, if you take a calf out it will take one year to replace. It is called game management and it is effective. This is a very poor poll and misrepresents the reason for this "option" Please do your research before stating this type of interaction.

[Mooseman]

i love this season my family would not have a moose ever year if it wasnt for this calves die because not enough food in the areas they are in


That is just not the case at all. We have no short supply of brows anywhere in 7A. Don't get me wrong, some of that opportunity is ok I think. Just to have an "open season" lack's control of an area over-harvest of calf's. Just a fear I have. It probably is unreasonable.

[houndogger]

It is kind of hard to say lack of food the way they are logging off the pine beetle up there. There is food everywhere. I for one would have no interest in shooting calves. I don't think it would be good management to start a cub bear season so I will leave the young moose to grow something big on their head.

[270WIN]

I am am for the calf season as i agree with moosecaller. i am against the cow season but i agree it managment it more of a personal thing as i would never shoot a cow correct me if i am wrong cow seasons early oct the rut start last 2 week in sept and carries one to early oct so the way i see it and well it just my opinion your driving along you see a cow she has no calf so you shoot her well it early oct so it posiable she has been bread are you not taking 2 moose out of the population so in turn if she wasa mujure cow it will take 10 year to replace thouse 2 moose

[Marc]

Bears also have cubs every second year once they reach maturity. I can't see them having this calf season if the population can't handle it. If there was any concern I'm sure they'd close it.

Marc.

[Mooseman]

Taking a calf puts LESS of a toll on the population than taking a more mature breeding animal or one close to it. It has absolutly nothing to do with wolves or thier control. If you take a five year old animal out of the equation it will take five years to replace it, not to mention the potential of at least five to ten more offspring from that five year old animal that has been harvested, if you take a calf out it will take one year to replace. It is called game management and it is effective. This is a very poor poll and misrepresents the reason for this "option" Please do your research before stating this type of interaction.

I am sorry that you feel offended! I am not sure though where I said something that is misrepresent. The poll is not a bad thing at all since at least half of the people here disagree with you. That tells us that we as hunters and the responsible resource users can talk about this. I think.

You might find too, that a general open season brings some risks with it that could cause a problem. Big bulls are managed because the harvest numbers are based on science and then allocated. A GOS on calf's leaves all doors open. There is no control how many or where they can be shot. In a worst case scenario 100 hunters could go to one MU and shoot 100 calf's. I fear that such a case would have a bad impact. It is unlikely I agree, but possible.

[Mooseman]

Bears also have cubs every second year once they reach maturity. I can't see them having this calf season if the population can't handle it. If there was any concern I'm sure they'd close it.

Marc.

Yes, they will and they keep a really good eye on it too. I am just unsure about the GOS thing. It is such an unknown until they count.

[Jagermeister]

You don't see farmers killing off all the young. I think more leh makes more seines at lest they will now how many are being taken.I beg to differ on this statement. The ranchers I know rely on making money off calf sales and the only time breeding stock goes to market is when they become problematic. This is the premise under which the limited entry was set up in in Region 7. Dr. Tony Bubenick was the authority involved and the regulation was implemented under the direction of Ken Childs, regional wildlife biologist for Region 7. Of course the guides and outfitters were instrumental in this as well.
The LEH is the method by which the numbers of mature bulls are controlled. What they were finding at the time was that the age of the breeding bulls had dropped to an average of 3 to 4 years and this is less than the age of prime bulls which is 7 to 9 years. With less than prime bulls breeding, leads to lesser incidents of calf twinning, hence fewer animals overall. To keep ratios in check (ie 1 breeding bull to 7 to 10 breedable cows), a cow season was implemented. I think that the cow season regulation should be revisited and shortened. It would be interesting to know what the percentage increase in quota numbers for the guides is compared to the percentage increase in LEH numbers, and I'm speaking of allotments, not actual harvest numbers.

[Mooseman]

It would be interesting to know what the percentage increase in quota numbers for the guides is compared to the percentage increase in LEH numbers, and I'm speaking of allotments, not actual harvest numbers.

Hi Jagermeister,
I don't understand this question. Could you please explain it to me?

Thank you !

[Jagermeister]

LEH was implemented in 1981. I've no way of determining the number of LEH that were granted in the early years, however, I think that these numbers have remained static over the course of time. On the other hand, I wonder how many more allocations for moose do the guides receive now than they had at the outset of the LEH implementation?

[moose hunter]

this season is good in my books there is so many big bulls around when you do get an leh

[Blktail]

I also believe the season is open to maximize opportunities for hunters. Guys should educate themselves on the subject before they take sides. Guys that don't want to hunt calves should hunt what ever else they are permitted to, and leave the calf opportunities for others.

There is an excellent book written by Dr. Jim Hatter, the first wildlife biologist hired in BC. He recomended the first cow seasons for good reason but has been villified by trophy hunters since. There are a lot of complicated factors involved in creating seasons to please everybody while maintaining stable populations. The environment is constantly changing from pressures like the prospectors burning off the countryside to make finding gold easier to pine beetles killing entire forests. These things drastically change the carrying capacity of ecosystems. If the politicians leave the biologists to do their job without interference we will all be better off.

Dana, BSc., Biol.

[Maxx]

[quote=Blktail]I also believe the season is open to maximize opportunities for hunters. Guys should educate themselves on the subject before they take sides. Guys that don't want to hunt calves should hunt what ever else they are permitted to, and leave the calf opportunities for others.

There is an excellent book written by Dr. Jim Hatter, the first wildlife biologist hired in BC. He recomended the first cow seasons for good reason but has been villified by trophy hunters since. There are a lot of complicated factors involved in creating seasons to please everybody while maintaining stable populations. The environment is constantly changing from pressures like the prospectors burning off the countryside to make finding gold easier to pine beetles killing entire forests. These things drastically change the carrying capacity of ecosystems. If the politicians leave the biologists to do their job without interference we will all be better off.




I think that we can all agree that if politicians stayed out of many issue, and let the professionals do their job, we would all be better off. However, on this issue, I do not think that politicians are involved, this is a bureaucrat's reulation choice I think. If this is such a good idea to have an open season on calf's, why has no other regional manager copied this season? How long has this season been going on, for a long time I believe.

I have no problem shooting and eating a calf, what I have a problem with is an open season. Put it on LEH (Cow or calf tag), and the opportunities will still be there, similar to the doe season in region 5. If you put in for the tag, you are almost assured to draw.

Why take a chance, if 1 year an above average amount of calf's get shot, then a nasty winter takes it toll, how quickly will the regulations react? 1- 2 season later. I have no faith a bureaucrat is going to react quickly enough to protect what they should have protected in the first place, yearling survival.

[boxhitch]

MMmmmm calf moose. Can we say '200 lbs of Veal' ? If the cow numbers are still there, and successfully being bred by good bulls, more will be calves on the way. It would be good to see more harvest data being kept, though.

[timberhunter]

I don't shoot calves, and I don't shoot does or cows. I'm in it for the hunt, not just so I can shoot something. You all wanna just shoot something, stick to shooting at the range.

Marc S.

[CanuckShooter]

There are good things, and bad things in regards to the open calf moose season. First off, if your area is under LEH, it's good because if your not drawn it still leaves you with a 'reasonable' opportunity to harvest a moose if the % of spike-forks is small. In this case it's bad because the season is only for two weeks, which concentrates hunters during this two week period and results in more calves being taken. [more hunters show up when there are more options] and creates more competition between the hunters. Which all too often makes for rushed shots [a truck/and or /hunter coming] and improper [illegal] animals being shot and left. And there is nothing to limit the number of calves being taken...and that is why we see so many single cows after the calf season.

It's a good thing when you are happy with a calf in the freezer, rather than a full size animal [less meat for smaller families].

When the LEH was implemented in 7A, there were horrendous numbers of hunters, and horrendous numbers of moose being killed by the trains [more than killed by hunters I read once]. Since then the moose populations have exploded, hunter numbers are down, and the trains are killing less due to better practices. But like taxes, once implemented it never goes away.

If I had a choice I would recommend changes be made to the current open calf season and the hunting regulations. If it was to stay, the season should be open for the entire moose season, or all antlerless should be LEH, which would take some of the pressure to concentrate hunters in a two week period. If it was to stay, some changes should be made to the regulations to deal with the wrong animals being shot [goes for tine/antler regs also] for example, if you make a mistake and shoot a 3x3 bull or last years calf [too big] you could voluntarily turn yourself in and pay a nominal fine [with no fear of having your firearms and trucks confiscated and losing hunting priveliges for years]which is why most animals are shot and left...fear of prosecution.

I have hunted 7A for over thirty years and can tell you that there is absolutely no shortage of moose and no shortage of habitat, and I think that keeping the LEH in place is somewhat misguided now, but was probably one of the best things they did back in the eightys. We have found, and continue to find every year animals that are shot and left behind, which is one of the worst possible senerios possible...and quite often when looking over the abandoned animal it is very easy to see how the mistake was made [little sticker points that are hard to see] any biologist with half a mind can see the folly in this don't you think?? I would love to see some common sense changes....and a little relief from the LEH boondoggle....but I won't hold my breath.

[boxhitch]

Varifieing a kill as being illegal ,once it is on the ground, is no better than POACHING and should be handled accordingly. If in doubt, don't shoot.

[mcrae]

My moose this past season was a calf and I had the LEH draw for a bull. We had moose hanging already so I took the calf because its the best damn meat around! The conditions were perfect the hunt was awsome so I ended it with some tasty calf moose. Let me tell you I worked for this calf! I hunted a river bottom all day, thick and nasty, I caught momma bringing baby across the river and when they hit the other side I waited for the cow to clear the calf and took the shot. I then had to field dress and haul the calf from the river to the nearest road which was about a km's away. Tough work but I would do it again in a heartbeat! Just a point of caution to anybody that shoots a calf don't assume the cow has left:-o she caught me flat footed admiring my work when she came trotting at me from the alders! I just backed up and got out of the way after she sniffed the calf she lingered for a bit but then crossed the river and took off.

The previous trip I had a bull LEH as well and I took a two point bull instead. He was really good eating as well;) I get razzed quite a bit because I technically have not really shot a bull moose yet in 10 years of moose hunting according to the hunting buddies:lol: It was the only two point any of these guys had ever seen! I got him on the first day of the hunt and it was my b-day as well. Great memories.................

McRae

[Mooseman]

LEH was implemented in 1981. I've no way of determining the number of LEH that were granted in the early years, however, I think that these numbers have remained static over the course of time. On the other hand, I wonder how many more allocations for moose do the guides receive now than they had at the outset of the LEH implementation?


Thank you, now I understand. The areas I know the quotas have not changed at all for moose. The populations have been unchanged and so have been the cow - calf ratio. There is no problem with moose at all at this time and I think that with all the new creation of habitat (beetle kill) we will see a rise in numbers. We can absolutely have a calf season without harming the population. And a cow season as well. But some means of control by the biologist as in how many get shot would be not bad.

I just really hope that the companies don't start using herbicides to battle the massive deciduas growth that will come now !!!! That would have way more of an impact then all of us would have if we had an GOS on all moose with a limit of 2 / hunter.

This new and coming habitat is a fantastic thing for many wildlife species like moose, elk, deer, bear and grouse. That is actually something well worth fighting for.

[moosecaller]

The moose calf general open season in Reg. 7A

What do you think? Is it a good thing or a bad thing. It is kind of nice to have this option when you don't have LEH, but is it going to cost us in the future or do we have enough calfs to ceep the population.


I am sorry that you feel offended! I am not sure though where I said something that is misrepresent. The poll is not a bad thing at all since at least half of the people here disagree with you. That tells us that we as hunters and the responsible resource users can talk about this. I think.

You might find too, that a general open season brings some risks with it that could cause a problem. Big bulls are managed because the harvest numbers are based on science and then allocated. A GOS on calf's leaves all doors open. There is no control how many or where they can be shot. In a worst case scenario 100 hunters could go to one MU and shoot 100 calf's. I fear that such a case would have a bad impact. It is unlikely I agree, but possible.


Mooseman;
I am not offended and welcome this oppotunity to engage in a positive exchange of information for all of us.
By making the comment in conjunction with the poll " but it going to cost us in the future" taints the valitity of the poll and puts a bias on it which may cause people to vote on a different point rather than the intented poll question, simple because half of the people disagree does not make a poll valid, it may mean they are not reading or understanding the intent fully. By adding your simple comment to this poll you may have turned the outcome around completely, this is how polititians and statations can have a seemly innocent poll come out in thier favour.
You make the statement that big bulls are managed and that calves are wide open! This is not accurate at all the calf season is managed as well it is just not done through the LEH process.
This forum is a heathy way for us as concerned hunters to voice our opinions and to let our views be known, but we also have to be cautious not to put an opinion down as fact and possibly have one of us go away with the wrong information. The internet is a has a vast amount of information on it and with a little time and effort we can educate each other and benifit our passion for this sport, rather than have those that would oppose us see that we are not educated and speak on hearsay and not fact. As reasonable resource users we must educate ourselves, so that we can talk about this with a certain amount of fact based knowledge, rather than conjecture and guessing. Nothing can kill a cause faster than poor research and lack of knowledge before addressing the issues.

[Mooseman]

Moosecaller;
I am happy you enjoy the positive exchange of information. So do I. Most of the things in your post I understand. I just don't understand the part where you (I think) tell me that my knowledge lacks.

Fact 1: Mature bull moose and cows are on LEH. The biologists set an AAH for these based on science.
Fact 2: Calf's are on GOS from Oct. 10 to Oct. 25.

I ask you now how is the calf harvest managed?

[Steeleco]

Exactly, why masacre the young ( weak) animals, when a hard winter, disease and predation will already affect them more than an adult animal. It seems stange to me, why not instead give more LEH tags for bull and cow- at least that can be regulated more than the killingof calfs in an open season. I would normally never promote more use of the LEH system- but for this case, it seems like a better way to manage the numbers.

As much as I am longing for some moose meat in the freezer, I'd have to agree with Maxx 110%

[ianwuzhere]

I agree with maxx where to let the biologists do their work. I think that there are still quite a few calves that are left after the short calf season. Seen one yesterday and have seen about 5 after the season, throughout the winter. When i think about what else could be made-cow season etc. i cant think of much better. The moose populations are good right now in 7A. They could try the any bull open season like in region 6- and have every hunter and their dogs from the lowermainland setting up camps and just have a big slaughterfest for a week. I think if your lucky enuf to get an leh for a bull or cow in 7A and u put in the time- youll find one. For now ill wait for the leh's to come out and cross my fingers to see a spike fork this season...

[moose hunter]

I don't shoot calves, and I don't shoot does or cows. I'm in it for the hunt, not just so I can shoot something. You all wanna just shoot something, stick to shooting at the range.

Marc S.

THATS UN TRUE
it sounds like u just want a nice rack for your wall
the rest of us hunt for meat
if there was no calf or cow season we would be over run by moose in P.G

[timberhunter]

THATS UN TRUE
it sounds like u just want a nice rack for your wall
the rest of us hunt for meat
if there was no calf or cow season we would be over run by moose in P.G

Yep I love hanging an immature 2 point on my wall. When I lived in Pg, I worked in the around Huta lake area. We found more dead cows stashed, because some idiot shot it thinking it was a calf. Yup you're all heros in my books. Calf season in Hixon is a zoo, you can't go down any road more than a half a km, with out seeing some guy waiting for a calf to come out.

The equasion is simple

Kill one cow= killing off 10 moose.

Sure makes sense to me:icon_frow , at least if you shoot a bull there is always another bull to breed the cow. But shoot a cow, and you loose all the calves she would have in the future.

Marc S.

[moosecaller]

Moosecaller;
I am happy you enjoy the positive exchange of information. So do I. Most of the things in your post I understand. I just don't understand the part where you (I think) tell me that my knowledge lacks.

Fact 1: Mature bull moose and cows are on LEH. The biologists set an AAH for these based on science.
Fact 2: Calf's are on GOS from Oct. 10 to Oct. 25.

I ask you now how is the calf harvest managed?


The management of calves is done by having a season from Oct.10-Oct.25. and if the numbers and population needs it to control the numbers this season would be extended or shortened depending on the census.
On a side note to answer your question that your knowledge lacks I do not recall saying this at all, I said we all must educate ourselves and each other so we can talk with some certainty based on knowledge.

[bigwhiteys]

Yep I love hanging an immature 2 point on my wall. When I lived in Pg, I worked in the around Huta lake area. We found more dead cows stashed, because some idiot shot it thinking it was a calf. Yup you're all heros in my books. Calf season in Hixon is a zoo, you can't go down any road more than a half a km, with out seeing some guy waiting for a calf to come out.

The equasion is simple

Kill one cow= killing off 10 moose.

Sure makes sense to me:icon_frow , at least if you shoot a bull there is always another bull to breed the cow. But shoot a cow, and you loose all the calves she would have in the future.


I agree... Why shoot a calf/cow when you can just go out and spend $500 for a yearling buffalo. Shoot it, they gut it, clean it and quarter it for you?

Makes sense to me.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[PGKris]

WOW!!! 50% - 50% UNREAL!! I can't believe that many people are against the calf hunt!! I won't get into the biology of the issue. I know a few people that won't shoot a calf because they're cute and they're "baby" moose but hey, if you're going to draw your own ethics lines, thats fine by me. Just don't persecute people that shoot calves. Tasty tasty tasty. My 2 cents. Wow. 50-50. :o

[Mooseman]

The management of calves is done by having a season from Oct.10-Oct.25. and if the numbers and population needs it to control the numbers this season would be extended or shortened depending on the cencus.



My point exactly. We will find out "after" the fact and that is what I have a hard time with.

Don't get me wrong. The numbers are fine! The past calf, cow or bull seasons have not done any harm to the population. If you like them or not is a personal thing but looking at the moose population it was ok so far.

On the other note. No harm done.

[youngfellla]

I've never bothered to shoot a calf, but I don't have a problem with anyone else shooting one. From what I've seen in the past few years, moose populations are thriving in Reg. 7. We haven't had a tough winter for 4 or 5 years, and there is excellent habitat around to support them. For now I think the ticks are more of a problem for the moose than an open calf season.

[moosecaller]

[quote=Mooseman]My point exactly. We will find out "after" the fact and that is what I have a hard time with.


Moooseman;
We find "after" the fact with the spike fork/two tine open season? It seems to work adaquately. The population is maintaining and appears to be in good health.

[Mooseman]

Please Sir,
The GOS on spike fork/ 2 point bulls is not even close to an GOS on calf's.

You could not even put a dent in to the age class (1.5 year old bulls) let alone the population of moose if you would shoot them all. But if you would shoot all the calf's...................?

[Foxer]

The equasion is simple

Kill one cow= killing off 10 moose.

The equasion is wrong. :) Depending on the local environment anyway.

Where it's appropriate, targeting cows or calves can actually cause an INCREASE in the number of healthy adult moose in the population over time. We can walk thru the math and such together if you like, but you'll find it is indeed the case.

In areas where it's NOT approprate it can do a lot of harm of course. the biologists have to stay on the ball, and pick an appropriate stratagy for the 'times', adapting to changes where needed.

[moosecaller]

Please Sir,
The GOS on spike fork/ 2 point bulls is not even close to an GOS on calf's.

You could not even put a dent in to the age class (1.5 year old bulls) let alone the population of moose if you would shoot them all. But if you would shoot all the calf's...................?

Extreme and far fetched possibilties do not rationalize a debate, stick to resonable and probable arguments. If this was a possibilty do you not think it would be addressed by the managers? Let's put an end to this debate as it is stating to digress. Looking forward to talking to you again soon mooseman it was fun.:grin:

[Mooseman]

Extreme and far fetched possibilties do not rationalize a debate, stick to resonable and probable arguments. If this was a possibilty do you not think it would be addressed by the managers? Let's put an end to this debate as it is stating to digress. Looking forward to talking to you again soon mooseman it was fun.:grin:

;) It always is fun to debate (except with the wife) and I agree with you to end it.
I think both of us, as well as all others here enjoy the healthy moose population, so that we can continue to hunt and BS around some campfire.

See you out there!