building trails

[hardnocks]

in the hunting regs.it states its is unlawful to build trails. Yesterday i was out hiking and scouting on a mountain i have been on my whole life. I was kinda shocked to see all the mountain bike trails carving up the side hill. Some of the ruts were 10ins deep.If i made those logging i would be fined. LOL .

So today i am out on my quad in a place where theirs a lot of mountain bikers . what i did see is a lot of ramps nailed to trees . sighs nailed to trees. And energy bar rappers everywhere . Way more destructive then atvs.

Talked to one guy i said i was bear hunting (had my bow) he says don`t up realise people bike all over this mountain. ...I said don`t you realise people hunt on this mountain.

So my ?? is for all you forestry type`s is all this trail making legal

[Gateholio]

Most of it is NOT legal and many mountain bikers just don't care. Unfortunately there isn't much enforcement. I've been on plenty of mountain bike trails that were built with no regard to erosion, the environment, other users or anything else other than what makes the best "ride"

It's bloody shameful what damage some of these guys and gals do.

[CanuckShooter]

Probably isn't legal......I've seen bigger ruts left by elk/buff so not a big deal really....you may be seeing energy bar wrappers, but when out hunting you see budweiser cans..which is worse??

[frenchbar]

in the hunting regs.it states its is unlawful to build trails. Yesterday i was out hiking and scouting on a mountain i have been on my whole life. I was kinda shocked to see all the mountain bike trails carving up the side hill. Some of the ruts were 10ins deep.If i made those logging i would be fined. LOL .

So today i am out on my quad in a place where theirs a lot of mountain bikers . what i did see is a lot of ramps nailed to trees . sighs nailed to trees. And energy bar rappers everywhere . Way more destructive then atvs.

Talked to one guy i said i was bear hunting (had my bow) he says don`t up realise people bike all over this mountain. ...I said don`t you realise people hunt on this mountain.

So my ?? is for all you forestry type`s is all this trail making legal

Its becoming the norm....christ you should see the trails the dirt bikers have carved up in botanie valley and Murry crk...there isnt a mountain up there that they dont chew around on ..same thing signs and ramps nailed to trees..a mess left at a lot of camps after the weekends...:evil:

[frenchbar]

Probably isn't legal......I've seen bigger ruts left by elk/buff so not a big deal really....you may be seeing energy bar wrappers, but when out hunting you see budweiser cans..which is worse??

when i pick up the cans i get a dime each ..not so much for wrappers:wink:

[Slime green cat]

I agree .... mountain bikers do just as much damage as atv's ... maybe in different ways, but in the end its all the same . i think horses and cattle can do just as much damage, if not more .
Having said that ... in the big picture, I think its all pretty insignificant, the tree huggers need to get over it .
I say we should all build trails and enjoy them by whatever means we choose . There is enough wild untouched bush without roads or any trails at all that I dont think a few rutted trails here and there are an issue even worth mentioning . I am sure a few will dissagree though :confused:

[hardnocks]

Probably isn't legal......I've seen bigger ruts left by elk/buff so not a big deal really....you may be seeing energy bar wrappers, but when out hunting you see budweiser cans..which is worse??
Can`t say i have ever seen elk or buff make a rut straight down a 70% slop.

[jml11]

From the regs:


On May 31, 2009 the

Forests and Range Statutes Amendment Act introduced a provision that makes it illegal for individuals to cause environmental damage. Irresponsible offroad vehicle use in alpine, grassland or wetland areas can disturb soil and destroy plants, risk watershed and water source quality, threaten or kill birds and animals, introduce invasive plants and reduce wildlife and cattle food sources. Regulations have been revised and update the definition of environmental damage to include any change to soil that adversely alters an ecosystem. Under the new provision, individuals found to have caused environmental damage may be levied a violation ticket that carries a $575 fine. More serious cases of damage could lead to penalties of up to $100,000 and/or a year in jail.


Not sure if Mountain Bikes fit into this catergory or not...

[MichelD]

Frenchbar mentioned Botanie Valley and Murry Crk...

I ran into a gang of mountain bikers up there on a guided mountain bike weekend. They were living out of the guide's converted school bus and they were all (guide included) from Washington State.

Aren't there immigration/work visa laws in this country?

And chewing up delicate and sensitive alpine habitat is a serious problem, whether it's done by mountain bike, trail bike or quad. There is only an inch or two of soil in some places and the growing season up there is so short, once vegetation is disturbed it doesn't grow back and erosion starts.

[ruger#1]

From the regs:



On May 31, 2009 the

Forests and Range Statutes Amendment Act introduced a provision that makes it illegal for individuals to cause environmental damage. Irresponsible offroad vehicle use in alpine, grassland or wetland areas can disturb soil and destroy plants, risk watershed and water source quality, threaten or kill birds and animals, introduce invasive plants and reduce wildlife and cattle food sources. Regulations have been revised and update the definition of environmental damage to include any change to soil that adversely alters an ecosystem. Under the new provision, individuals found to have caused environmental damage may be levied a violation ticket that carries a $575 fine. More serious cases of damage could lead to penalties of up to $100,000 and/or a year in jail.



Not sure if Mountain Bikes fit into this catergory or not...


But motor cycles do, And they drive past the sign that says the same thing, We watched four of them hill climbing up around sawmill lake around Oliver, They were sure making ruts in the hill side. Its like everything else, No one to enforce the laws, No plates on the bikes to report them, And when you show them that in the regs they tell you to F OFF. So how do you win.

[coach]

I'm sure Frenchbar recognizes this mountain. All of the damage done here by vehicles is above the 6000 foot level where vehicles are not allowed. There is nothing more rewarding than hiking to the top of a mountain like this, finding a great place to glass mule deer and then witnessing 3 trucks, 7 atv's and 3 dirt bikes make their way over the top of the mountain.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/coach108/NewImage.jpg

[CanuckShooter]

Can`t say i have ever seen elk or buff make a rut straight down a 70% slop.

You obviously don't hunt elk where I do!! :wink:

[frenchbar]

I'm sure Frenchbar recognizes this mountain. All of the damage done here by vehicles is above the 6000 foot level where vehicles are not allowed. There is nothing more rewarding than hiking to the top of a mountain like this, finding a great place to glass mule deer and then witnessing 3 trucks, 7 atv's and 3 dirt bikes make their way over the top of the mountain.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/coach108/NewImage.jpg

yup ...quite a pissoff allright!! back in its day was a beauty spot to glass for the migrating muleys

[coach]

Yup - I haven't been back in three years (since the day I took this picture). Sure wish it was more like the old days.

[frenchbar]

Yup - I haven't been back in three years (since the day I took this picture). Sure wish it was more like the old days.

wishfull thinking...will only get worse imo...i dont go back much at all now days.. too bad such a beautiful spot..

[ruger#1]

What a mess, Then those idiots will be doing that every year.

[Jelvis]

No building trails, what about layin pipe all night long, layin pipe I'm workin so hard, layin pipe, my backs so sore, layin pipe to satisfy that, whoa man. lol
jElvis .. Layin pipe .. is that legal?

[Darksith]

I don't think that someone sitting on a quad can complain about a mountain biker, or a motor biker. But that being said I don't agree with anyone that litters, and nothing pisses me off more than hiking all day to get somewhere only to find a fool on a quad with a trail in there that I didn't know about and isn't allowed to be there.

It is everyones responsibility to conserve the natural beauty of the landscape so our grandchildren can enjoy the same serene backdrops as we do. Hunters, mountain bikers, and recreational vehicle operators are all in the same boat. Unfortunately some people abuse this or are just oblivious to it, I think the latter is true for the most part. Governments should provide areas for people to go with ATV's, mountain bikes, thus making it illegal to go "exploring" out of these boundries.

We as hunters have the advantage, put a bullet whole in their tire and tell them happily, see you next time! j/k

[Slime green cat]

I'm sure Frenchbar recognizes this mountain. All of the damage done here by vehicles is above the 6000 foot level where vehicles are not allowed. There is nothing more rewarding than hiking to the top of a mountain like this, finding a great place to glass mule deer and then witnessing 3 trucks, 7 atv's and 3 dirt bikes make their way over the top of the mountain.

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/coach108/NewImage.jpg

Looks like a fun place to ride to me . I know I am going to catch some heat from alot of you .... but I just dont agree :confused:
Why cant atv riders enjoy that spot ? i am sure there are far more spots like that one that have no road or quad trail access ... so enjoy your hiking at those spots .... there are only so many areas with roads that will take you into these high alpine areas, so let atv riders enjoy the few that there are .
I am not saying it should be a free for all up there . I think riders should stick to trails and avoid damaging vegitation.
What about the guy who is physically unable to hike up that summit ? does he not deserve to enjoy it or hunt it ? You hikers that think you are the only ones entightitled to these spots are no better than the atvers thar are ripping them up with no regard for the rest of us .
I hike to hunt and I also use an atv ... where I hike there are no atv's and never will be .... thats why I hike there .... so whats the problem here ? maybe you hikers should go where the atv's cant :wink:

[Darksith]

Looks like a fun place to ride to me . I know I am going to catch some heat from alot of you .... but I just dont agree :confused:
Why cant atv riders enjoy that spot ? i am sure there are far more spots like that one that have no road or quad trail access ... so enjoy your hiking at those spots .... there are only so many areas with roads that will take you into these high alpine areas, so let atv riders enjoy the few that there are .
I am not saying it should be a free for all up there . I think riders should stick to trails and avoid damaging vegitation.
What about the guy who is physically unable to hike up that summit ? does he not deserve to enjoy it or hunt it ? You hikers that think you are the only ones entightitled to these spots are no better than the atvers thar are ripping them up with no regard for the rest of us .
I hike to hunt and I also use an atv ... where I hike there are no atv's and never will be .... thats why I hike there .... so whats the problem here ? maybe you hikers should go where the atv's cant :wink:

Simply clueless. Its not about having that area only for people on foot, its not about who gets the right to enjoy that spot. Its about protecting the environment, and the problem with that road is it is now going to be a funnel for water run off, and it will errode away and forever change the landscape of that hillside.

Now if you say vehicles are allowed to go up there, but they must stay on the road, eventually they will not be able to stay on the road because it will get washed out, and then they will make a new road beside the old. The cycle will repeat.

Its not about who gets to enjoy it, or how to get there, its about protecting what is already there, and a road will only damage the area even when vehicles stop driving on it for decades after if not forever.

[frenchbar]

Looks like a fun place to ride to me . I know I am going to catch some heat from alot of you .... but I just dont agree :confused:
Why cant atv riders enjoy that spot ? i am sure there are far more spots like that one that have no road or quad trail access ... so enjoy your hiking at those spots .... there are only so many areas with roads that will take you into these high alpine areas, so let atv riders enjoy the few that there are .
I am not saying it should be a free for all up there . I think riders should stick to trails and avoid damaging vegitation.
What about the guy who is physically unable to hike up that summit ? does he not deserve to enjoy it or hunt it ? You hikers that think you are the only ones entightitled to these spots are no better than the atvers thar are ripping them up with no regard for the rest of us .
I hike to hunt and I also use an atv ... where I hike there are no atv's and never will be .... thats why I hike there .... so whats the problem here ? maybe you hikers should go where the atv's cant :wink:

i would respond to your post ..but i dont think i want to get my self banned today...:mrgreen:

[coach]

Slime green cat - You are missing the point here. This area is closed to vehicle access. It's not legal to drive an ATV, truck or dirt bike up that mountain. Unfortunately, a lot of guys feel the rules don't apply to them. I'm not a guy who hikes everywhere. I sold my quad this winter, but will probably buy another one before the fall. I have no problem with guys who hunt on quads. What I have a big problem with are people who have absolutely no regard for rules or for the damage they are doing to areas like this. Obviously somebody thinks it is important not to drive vehicles in these place - because laws have been passed to restrict access! It's frustrating as hell to plan a hunt to an area, work your ass off to hike in and then see guys driving vehicles all over the place. This has nothing to do with any sense of "entitlement" to the area.

[coach]

And even more to the point.. there are laws restricting vehicle access in places like this, but there's nothing going on in terms of enforcement. The original thread was about mountain bikes and whether the damage and litter caused by them is illegal. I'm sure it is. But again, who you gonna call?

[Darksith]

sad but true. RAPP if the vehicle has a plate that you can ID, better if you can take a picture so its not word vs word.

I think its about time that some of the fat cats in management got off their duffs and started getting out there to enforce certain things. Its pretty bad when the C/O's don't have any money for gas and so they just sit in the office.

Its time for Gordon to gtfo!

[Jelvis]

It's not nice to see those ruts on that hill for sure and I don't like the visual either but it will never stop if there is a place for off roaders with access roads or trails some of them will go there or around barriers so I say bring roads back to slope is the only way or these certain ones will rip up in there to see a deer.
Thing is it's expensive to do and it leaves no access for wild fire fighters if needed in there by trucks.
Jel .. it will never stop unless access is sloped off and made natural again ..

[frenchbar]

It's not nice to see those ruts on that hill for sure and I don't like the visual either but it will never stop if there is a place for off roaders with access roads or trails some of them will go there or around barriers so I say bring roads back to slope is the only way or these certain ones will rip up in there to see a deer.
Thing is it's expensive to do and it leaves no access for wild fire fighters if needed in there by trucks.
Jel .. it will never stop unless access is sloped off and made natural again ..

you could cut all three mainroads back to slope leading into that area /not going to happen/ for the reasons youve stated jelly..and the bikes would still get in ..your right on jellybean tho its not going to stop..it gets worse every yr..

[Slime green cat]

Simply clueless. Its not about having that area only for people on foot, its not about who gets the right to enjoy that spot. Its about protecting the environment, and the problem with that road is it is now going to be a funnel for water run off, and it will errode away and forever change the landscape of that hillside.

Now if you say vehicles are allowed to go up there, but they must stay on the road, eventually they will not be able to stay on the road because it will get washed out, and then they will make a new road beside the old. The cycle will repeat.

Its not about who gets to enjoy it, or how to get there, its about protecting what is already there, and a road will only damage the area even when vehicles stop driving on it for decades after if not forever.

I am quite aware how errosion works .... it makes trails more fun and challenging :mrgreen: . So when and if that trails becomes impassable because of errosion and someone blazes a new one .... then what ? oh maybe in ten thousand years that hill will be gone ? not likely .... usually what ends up happening is the road somewhere lower down washes out or gets gated etc and these "scars" as you call them are reclaimed by nature in a few years .
In the big picture its small potatoes .... you guys get bent out of shape for nothing .
Driving on deactivated logging roads is no different . By using the roads they cant grow in and return to nature .... and your trucks tires are contributing to erosion and water runoff ... witch can lead to road washouts ... landslides etc ... where do you draw the line .
You guys are as bad as the granola heads .

[Slime green cat]

Slime green cat - You are missing the point here. This area is closed to vehicle access. It's not legal to drive an ATV, truck or dirt bike up that mountain. Unfortunately, a lot of guys feel the rules don't apply to them. I'm not a guy who hikes everywhere. I sold my quad this winter, but will probably buy another one before the fall. I have no problem with guys who hunt on quads. What I have a big problem with are people who have absolutely no regard for rules or for the damage they are doing to areas like this. Obviously somebody thinks it is important not to drive vehicles in these place - because laws have been passed to restrict access! It's frustrating as hell to plan a hunt to an area, work your ass off to hike in and then see guys driving vehicles all over the place. This has nothing to do with any sense of "entitlement" to the area.

Well thats an exception, I didn't realize that this area was closed to vehicles ... I dont agree with that . I dont agree with reckless atving and no regard for other users . If an area is closed, than leave it to the hikers .
If an area is open, let us ride and enjoy it . Dont bitch at us for crossing a creek or rutting out a muddy trail... What some people cant understand is atv's are "OFF" road vehicles.
We beat this topic to death last year and nothing came of it ... we will have to agree to dissagree :confused:

[Darksith]

I am quite aware how errosion works .... it makes trails more fun and challenging :mrgreen: . So when and if that trails becomes impassable because of errosion and someone blazes a new one .... then what ?
exactly, then you have another trail that isn't supposed to be there and is illegal. Where do YOU draw the line? If the trail is legal no problem, but if its not supposed to be there but its there will you still go on it?


these "scars" as you call them are reclaimed by nature in a few years .

Driving on deactivated logging roads is no different . By using the roads they cant grow in and return to nature .... and your trucks tires are contributing to erosion and water runoff ... witch can lead to road washouts ... landslides etc ... where do you draw the line .
You guys are as bad as the granola heads .
You haven't noticed how your trails don't get reclaimed when they are on a slope going straight up it, especailly around kamloops in the grasslands


Well thats an exception, I didn't realize that this area was closed to vehicles ... I dont agree with that . I dont agree with reckless atving and no regard for other users . If an area is closed, than leave it to the hikers .
If an area is open, let us ride and enjoy it .
Totally, and I will enjoy it as well. The area in batchelor above kamloops is open to all ATV activity, yet you still see guys crossing the road and destroying areas that they aren't supposed to be. Its up to each group (mountain bikers, dirt bikers, hunters, etc) to police their own. I would love to see/hear about someone saying the caught one of their own doing something stupid and they had the balls to say something. If everyone did that then it would stop.
Just like the shooting range up batch. I long for the day I catch someone dragging a fridge or stove out of the back of their truck up there. That would make my day and maybe send a message...probably not but I can hope.

[Slime green cat]

exactly, then you have another trail that isn't supposed to be there and is illegal. Where do YOU draw the line? If the trail is legal no problem, but if its not supposed to be there but its there will you still go on it?



I agree with most of what your saying as far as self policing ... and I am not in favour of needless destruction of sensitive areas ... HOWEVER .
Your above statement has a very gray area .... What makes a trail legal ? I have rode in high alpine areas with narrow atv tracks running through meadows . These trails have been there for as long as I can remember ... are they legal ? I dont know ? probably not ? will I continue to use them ? of course I will .... and why not ? What makes a hiking trail legal ?
Humans and animals both will leave a "trail" with repeated use .

This goes back to my original statement .... There are large expanses of virgin wilderness in this province that have no road access . You cant get a truck or atv anywhere near these virgin areas because there are no roads, period . So go hike and enjoy these areas, why worry about a new trail here and there that already has roads criss crossing through it ? The areas that have roads running through them are already "scarred" so choose your battles . You may as well beat your head against a wall if you think you are going to keep these areas perfect with only existing trails and roads . Again, whats a "legal trail" ? a logging road ? what fun is that ? we can use our trucks for those .

I just dont get the mentality ? Its like protesting a new pathway through a city park ... see what i am getting at ?

[.330 Dakota]

These are no doubt the tree hugger types that vote to ban griz huntin

[Everett]

Well as a trail building mountain biker getting lectured by a guy riding a quad is a new exsperiance. Quads destroy bike trails they are the biggest enemy of bikers. But in the big picture of erosion neither my bike or your quad amounts to squat. One clear cut will cause more erosion than every bike trail in BC.
Be very carefull talking to MTB guys in BC if your riding a quad on a bike trail. Some of them can turn quite violant when they run into quads or motor bikes on what they consider to be there turf. Some of these trails require thousands of hours of work. Which can be destoyed by a couple quads in minutes.

[Slime green cat]

But in the big picture of erosion neither my bike or your quad amounts to squat. One clear cut will cause more erosion than every bike trail in BC.

Exactly my point ... :wink:

[Everett]

These are no doubt the tree hugger types that vote to ban griz huntin

You would be shocked as to how many of these tree hugger bikers are hunters or pro hunter. I am a serious biker and almost all my buddies who ride either hunt or are pro hunter.

[Jelvis]

It's not going to change anyways, there will always be some one doing it with so many out on the fsr's and back road trails..
One guy I was talking to about hunting some big bucks, is an avid atv'r and I said, " It's nice they blocked that road." He smiled, looked at me and said, " I can find a way around any blocked road with my quad." I said really, he pointed to the bush, look over there, and I Looky and see where someone had actually pulled a Louie and made a trail around it for a quad. It blew my limited stir fried brain for a second, then later, I found out I was wrong, the road was blocked but not closed to motor vehicles that season yet.
So I was a bit premature but now it is, and the MOE actually did a fair bit of decent work to protect the local mule deer winter habitat rated at a winter carrying capacity at a 3 winter which is pretty good.
I felt good when I went back and saw the MOE had brought back the slope with longer logs across. It gave me goose bumps knowing they cared that much about the deer and moose, then I remembered, my two buds had worked up there with the mule deer and moose study and I heard story after story about my mountain..
jElvi$ .. Stay Off My Mountain .. lol .. Only moose and deer need apply lol ..
Big bucks make ruts .. I'm going-Nucking Futz-going? lol bin dare .. Bushman

[Gateholio]

Be very carefull talking to MTB guys in BC if your riding a quad on a bike trail. Some of them can turn quite violant when they run into quads or motor bikes on what they consider to be there turf. Some of these trails require thousands of hours of work. Which can be destoyed by a couple quads in minutes.

I assume you are talking about sanctioned trails that are designated for non motorized use? Because if it's just some random trail that was cut by mountain bikers I'd question who has more "rights" to erode the illegal trail!:mrgreen:

Around here, many wildlife trails have been "claimed" as mtn bike trails and there is sometimes conflicts when a hunter runs into a biker on these trails.:-D

[Everett]

I assume you are talking about sanctioned trails that are designated for non motorized use? Because if it's just some random trail that was cut by mountain bikers I'd question who has more "rights" to erode the illegal trail!:mrgreen:

Around here, many wildlife trails have been "claimed" as mtn bike trails and there is sometimes conflicts when a hunter runs into a biker on these trails.:-D

Nothing to do with sanctioned or unsanctioned its to so with peoples perception of trail ownership and the potential for violant interactions when these groups disagree in the forest. I have personally seen a dirt biker get torn off a bike and smacked around for riding on the "wrong" trail.
The problem you have in Pemberton is all the dicks from Vancouver coming out to weekend warrior your trails. That and the white settlers who have been colonizing your valley for the last 10 years. Who are city folk who don't reconize redneck rights.:wink: Personally I have been one of these dicks as I used to ride pemberton pretty hard when I was working out of Van.

[hardnocks]

. Some of these trails require thousands of hours of work. Which can be destoyed by a couple quads in minutes.

A good example of chooseing what laws to break.

[Sitkaspruce]

And hunters and fishers wonder why there is more gates, deactivated roads and less access.......:confused:

Bring back funded Wilderness Watch and we can see some of this stuff being reduced.

There is not enough people in Gov to enforce this crap.

Sad to say, but it happens everywhere and by all users; quads, horses, MB and 4x4'ers.

All users need to respect the land before it all is taken away.

Cheers

SS

[Everett]

A good example of chooseing what laws to break.

Don't be so sure all bike trails are illegal when I lived in cumberland we had permissin to build from the local logging company who's name escapes me at the moment. When I lived in Fernie Crestbrook gave us keys to there gates so we could build on there lease land.
Personaly I believe Crown land is there for us the owners of it to use wether thats biking, quading, hiking or any other use and screw the artificial rules designed by some pencil kneck in victoria. But show respect for other users. For example quaders stay off hiking and biking trails. Bikers and hikers respect peoples right to hunt in the forest that you ride in.

[Darksith]

What makes a trail legal ? I have rode in high alpine areas with narrow atv tracks running through meadows . These trails have been there for as long as I can remember ... are they legal ? I dont know ? probably not ? will I continue to use them ? of course I will .... and why not ? What makes a hiking trail legal ?
Humans and animals both will leave a "trail" with repeated use .

This goes back to my original statement .... There are large expanses of virgin wilderness in this province that have no road access . You cant get a truck or atv anywhere near these virgin areas because there are no roads, period. Again, whats a "legal trail" ? a logging road ? what fun is that ? we can use our trucks for those .

I just dont get the mentality ? Its like protesting a new pathway through a city park ... see what i am getting at ?
I see what your getting at, and that is if you can get your truck/atv/motorbike into the area then it should be yours for the taking. The rest is for hikers and tree huggers. How crazy does that sound?

A legal trail is a trail/area that is designated for motorvehicle/4x4/atv use. It has boundries, signs and allows free reign inside those boundries. Maybe the problem isn't what is legal, but there needs to be more legal designated spots. Maybe its b/c I live in kamloops and we have some seriously sensitive areas like the grasslands which are a lot like the alpine, which is why they have been designated parks and no motorized vehicle access areas, yet you still see trails going through them when there is a designated spot tens of square km's big just minutes away. One person goes through and makes a minor distrubance in the bush, then someone else follows, then another then you. Now its a trail so it should be free access. Come on. If there are no areas around that the "man" has designated then I understand having a few favorite areas that guys go and tear up, thats just fine. But to say that just b/c theres a trail it should be legit? Seriously? Also there are areas that are much less sensitive, cool, go there, the land can handle it. But do you know what those areas look like? I doubt it, unless your educated on it, and if you were you wouldn't go there.

Either way its not a moral issue. Every group should police their own to keep everything open and the gates down. If you don't have a designated area, petition to get one then tell all the tree huggin hippies to shove it. Just my 2 cents, I know it won't change anything, but I would love to hear some mud bogger say they chased someone out of an area. That would make my day.

[Gateholio]

Nothing to do with sanctioned or unsanctioned its to so with peoples perception of trail ownership and the potential for violant interactions when these groups disagree in the forest. I have personally seen a dirt biker get torn off a bike and smacked around for riding on the "wrong" trail.

In that case, I'd have no issue responding with force. I'm not a dirt biker or ATVer but there is no way I'd put up with some goon telling me what trail I may or may not use. Maybe the horsemen or hikers should begin attacking bikers for being on "their" horse/foot trail.

The level of arrogance with some mtn bikers is astounding....I've encountered it many times, even with some of my friends, unfortunately.



The problem you have in Pemberton is all the dicks from Vancouver coming out to weekend warrior your trails. That and the white settlers who have been colonizing your valley for the last 10 years. Who are city folk who don't reconize redneck rights.:wink: Personally I have been one of these dicks as I used to ride pemberton pretty hard when I was working out of Van.

The problem is people with no respect for anything other than thier personal entertainment. And most of them come from the sources you state.:wink:

[Sitkaspruce]

Personaly I believe Crown land is there for us the owners of it to use wether thats biking, quading, hiking or any other use and screw the artificial rules designed by some pencil kneck in victoria. But show respect for other users. For example quaders stay off hiking and biking trails. Bikers and hikers respect peoples right to hunt in the forest that you ride in.

So when do you draw the line???

What rules do you "Say Screw it" and what ones do you report if something is wrong?? How do you determine what is right and what is wrong if you say "Screw the rules" to fit YOUR own choice??

And how do YOU know they are artificial?? and what ones are there for a purpose??

And how are YOU held accountable if one of your "Screw It, I will make my own rules" causes some damage???

Curious about this "Screw it" mentality and putting "respect" and "screw it" in the same paragraph....

Cheers

SS

[hardnocks]

Well everitt the horse people use the old logging roads and skid trails and have for a long time . the dirt bikers use them there`s a couple hundred miles of cross country ski trails. The mountain bikers use those same trails to access their trails .So who has the rights to the trails. I don`t really see a trail being so bad its the ramps that are the worst . lots are half fallin down and just left . boards nailed to trees

[Buckmeister]

Last year I did some minor research into trail building for Mountain Biking and soon found there is a process available. I believe it involves a permit/application process. On the internet there is tons of info on how to build a proper trail and make it so it doesn't do environmental damage. So there is a right and a wrong way to do it.
Question is, how many trails in B.C. are legal??? Probably very few, and that would include trails by ALL users.
I am a mountain biker, ATV'r, 4x4'r, hiker and hunter.....I enjoy all all these sports, but I realize that respect for other users and for the environment and the future generations must be maintained. It all goes back to those "bad apples" ruining it for the rest. There are some real dicks out there.

There used to be access up to Little White mountain in Kelowna but you had to pass through a park to get there. Unfortunately there was a muddy section beside the road in the park that the 4x4'rs liked to drive through. I saw it once and remember it to be about 2 to 3 car lengths long. Ministry of Parks got all ticked about it and, get this, decided to destroy a forest to prevent further access. I saw a picture of it. It looked to be the size of a small airstrip in width but not quite length. They pushed the trees over and built tank traps all over the place. The ministry of Parks did this!!! They destroyed part of an ecosystem just because some morons were driving through a mud puddle. Now you tell me what causes more damage???? Does this make any sense at all??? And the 4x4'rs got the blame!!!!

[msawyer]

How about a few dozen caltrops tossed about on "closed" trails... A little greeting for the illegal vehicles, of all kinds!!

A few flat tires and some long walks back to the truck ought to sharpen up a few of these Aholes...

Best regards

Mike
________
vaporizer store (http://vaporshop.com)

[Everett]

Well everitt the horse people use the old logging roads and skid trails and have for a long time . the dirt bikers use them there`s a couple hundred miles of cross country ski trails. The mountain bikers use those same trails to access their trails .So who has the rights to the trails. I don`t really see a trail being so bad its the ramps that are the worst . lots are half fallin down and just left . boards nailed to trees

No one group has the right to any trail but single track bike trails get destroyed by one or two quads driving up them. These trails are usualy built by hand and thet take alot of back breaking effort to construct. Half ass ramp building is to be discouraged and is usualy done by kids. These ramps are very dangerous for bikers and are usualy removed by bikers.
Oh nails in trees don't kill trees chain saws kill trees.:wink:

[Everett]

Last year I did some minor research into trail building for Mountain Biking and soon found there is a process available. I believe it involves a permit/application process. On the internet there is tons of info on how to build a proper trail and make it so it doesn't do environmental damage. So there is a right and a wrong way to do it.
Question is, how many trails in B.C. are legal??? Probably very few, and that would include trails by ALL users.
I am a mountain biker, ATV'r, 4x4'r, hiker and hunter.....I enjoy all all these sports, but I realize that respect for other users and for the environment and the future generations must be maintained. It all goes back to those "bad apples" ruining it for the rest. There are some real dicks out there.

There used to be access up to Little White mountain in Kelowna but you had to pass through a park to get there. Unfortunately there was a muddy section beside the road in the park that the 4x4'rs liked to drive through. I saw it once and remember it to be about 2 to 3 car lengths long. Ministry of Parks got all ticked about it and, get this, decided to destroy a forest to prevent further access. I saw a picture of it. It looked to be the size of a small airstrip in width but not quite length. They pushed the trees over and built tank traps all over the place. The ministry of Parks did this!!! They destroyed part of an ecosystem just because some morons were driving through a mud puddle. Now you tell me what causes more damage???? Does this make any sense at all??? And the 4x4'rs got the blame!!!!


Like I said Pencil necks in Victoria. In the big scheme of things one mudhole our a thousand in BC means squat to the enviroment.

[000buck]

all just sounds like more of the same old- gun guy vs bow guy quad guy vs hike guy fly fisher vs gear fisher ... you fools divided we fall ....all of us

[Everett]

So when do you draw the line???

What rules do you "Say Screw it" and what ones do you report if something is wrong?? How do you determine what is right and what is wrong if you say "Screw the rules" to fit YOUR own choice??

And how do YOU know they are artificial?? and what ones are there for a purpose??

And how are YOU held accountable if one of your "Screw It, I will make my own rules" causes some damage???

Curious about this "Screw it" mentality and putting "respect" and "screw it" in the same paragraph....

Cheers

SS

Pretty simple respect for fellow users and a screw it mentality for the dumbasses trying enforce unenforceable rules on select user groups while leaving others alone.
For example the National Parks banning bikes on trails for enviromental reasons while still allowing horses which are an enviromental nightmare.

By the way bikes, horses, quads and dirt bikes do bugger all damage to the forests compared to logging and mining and most of the areas in question have been or are going to be logged or mined so the damage from these activities is realy a non issue. The real issue is how the seperate user groups interact. Sorry if this offends your idea of pristene forests but pristene forest no loger exist in the front country.

[hunter1947]

Its is illegal to damage cut or build trails on private land without the owners permission..

[hardnocks]

Oh nails in trees don't kill trees chain saws kill trees.:wink:
You are right nails don`t kill trees . They just kill saw mill workers . when a circular headsaw hits a nail the teeth flying out can be like a gatling gun.

[Everett]

You are right nails don`t kill trees . They just kill saw mill workers . when a circular headsaw hits a nail the teeth flying out can be like a gatling gun.

Good point

[Darksith]

they run metal detectors in the mills though from all the tree spiking hippies of the 80's

[swampthing]

Coach, love the picture. My wife and I spend most of the July 1st long weekends at the base of that mountain. I proposed to my wife there. I almost hate to say it but its legal to drive up that mountain. I was hunting there years ago when I witnissed a truck coming down that mountain in the dark. Next thing I saw was red and blues flashing. As I was camped right there I went to investigate and the COs were giving a ticket for having a vehicle on the mountain. The acussed showed the CO in the regs why he thought this was legal and the CO issued the ticket but said he would investigate. I expressed my interest in finding out the outcome. The CO [ Bob] called and said he had to recind the fine. There are mountains named in the closure and that isnt one of them. He said he would try to get a reg change in the future. I agree that vehichles shouldnt be allowed in most of these areas as long as they leave some spots open to motorsports guys. I am a backpacker, quader, and 4 wheeler, I like equal opportunity for all. They can keep the vehicles off of our montain. Thanks again for the pic. I will be up there july 1 this year.

[NorthShoreX]

Slime green cat - You are missing the point here. This area is closed to vehicle access. It's not legal to drive an ATV, truck or dirt bike up that mountain. Unfortunately, a lot of guys feel the rules don't apply to them. I'm not a guy who hikes everywhere. I sold my quad this winter, but will probably buy another one before the fall. I have no problem with guys who hunt on quads. What I have a big problem with are people who have absolutely no regard for rules or for the damage they are doing to areas like this. Obviously somebody thinks it is important not to drive vehicles in these place - because laws have been passed to restrict access! It's frustrating as hell to plan a hunt to an area, work your ass off to hike in and then see guys driving vehicles all over the place. This has nothing to do with any sense of "entitlement" to the area.

The mountain in question is Poison Mountain, and according to the maps I have it does NOT fall in the "Vehicle Closure Area".

The closure areas include Red Mtn, French Mtn, China Head Mtn, and Nine Mile Ridge.

[coach]

Thanks for the clarification guys. I was under the impression that there was a restriction above 6000 feet. It sounds like the local CO was too. I just checked the regs and you are correct. My apologies.

I believe in equal opportunity as well. I'm sure, however, that many people would agree that the damage in the picture is excessive and provides an example of what can happen to an alpine area when vehicles drive over it.

BTW - Here's the view from the top:

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy154/coach108/kelsaspics107.jpg

I have a really tough time picturing "road hunting" as a viable method for taking deer out of this area.

[Mik]

WOW! thats a lot of replies and opinions, so heres my 2c worth. To answer the original question, most trails are illegally built! Having said that, i would much rather see the younger generation ride thier bikes on illegal trails VS. having them "Rob ole' Granny's" or do drugs etc. etc. etc.
To those of us older folks, that ride bikes and hunt awesome! keep it up. Before you know it, with all this whining and complaining the MOE will ban walking into remote areas...(erosion from footprints)......then try to hunt!

[swampthing]

I didnt want to name the mountain out of respect for it. I actually thought it was closed as well, until the incident I referred to. I took my second best buck off of that mountain back when there used to be deer on it. Back to the subject. I am proud to be a member of a group like us that cares. Happy hunting.

[coach]

The deer are still there, it's just a lot harder to find them with all the vehicle traffic. I'm sure if there was a vehicle closure, there would be more great bucks taken from there.

[KevinB]

You are right nails don`t kill trees . They just kill saw mill workers . when a circular headsaw hits a nail the teeth flying out can be like a gatling gun.


It's a fairly accepted rule in the MTB trail building community that nailing to live trees us an unacceptable practice when building structures. You do see it a lot in some areas but as someone else pointed out it is usually kids, someone who is poorly informed, or someone who is building a "one-off" who does it. There are a lot of built up structures out there that are crap and accidents waiting to happen, but there are also a lot of very well built structures out there.

Interestingly enough, built up wooden and rock structures were originally used (and in a lot of area, are still used as such) as a way to get mountain bikes off of the ground to minimize erosion. They have evolved into trail features in their own right.

If the OP is still reading this thread, where was it you ran across this network of trails that seemingly came out of nowhere?