White Tail deer

[trapperRick]

WT will not replace Mule deer as Mule deer nor get pushed out by WT Mule deer are larger animals and what they term an aggressive species (just like snow geese are and tend to out breed and push out other species) I have seen this happen in Sask where they protected Mule deer and now there are Mule deer all over Sask where at one time they were only seen in the Cypress Hills in small numbers and the Mule deer have pushed out the WT. On hard early winters the two different deer used to breed to each other as they would get snowed in small valleys together but the off spring would die off and not last that long they did not seem to re – breed perhaps the off spring were sterile I am not sure but the off spring were really oddly colored. Besides WT hunting is more of a challenge than Mule deer hunting is anyway and they taste good

[jml11]

Have a read through this and it may help you understand why White-Tailed Deer are considered better colonizers than Mule Deer.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/managment-issues/docs/white-taileddeermanagmentbc.pdf

[Ozone]

Whitetails are ugly.

[Gateholio]

Whitetails are ugly.


Ugly and "common"

More than enough reason to have a generous bag limit on any WT deer.:wink:

[GoatGuy]

WT will not replace Mule deer as Mule deer nor get pushed out by WT Mule deer are larger animals and what they term an aggressive species (just like snow geese are and tend to out breed and push out other species) I have seen this happen in Sask where they protected Mule deer and now there are Mule deer all over Sask where at one time they were only seen in the Cypress Hills in small numbers and the Mule deer have pushed out the WT. On hard early winters the two different deer used to breed to each other as they would get snowed in small valleys together but the off spring would die off and not last that long they did not seem to re – breed perhaps the off spring were sterile I am not sure but the off spring were really oddly colored. Besides WT hunting is more of a challenge than Mule deer hunting is anyway and they taste good

Where did you get the info that mule deer are termed an aggressive species?

Mule deer do not 'outbreed' white-tailed deer anywhere.

Ever ask anybody from Manitoba what happened to mule deer over there?

[Moose Guide]

whitetails have chased mulies out of many areas in the states and are taking over much of B.C.
I prefer to hunt mulies but whitetails are far better eating!!!!
I think that they need to make an area were it is see a wt shoot a wt
just to protect our mulies!
Just some thoughts,(I won't want to live were there are no wt's)

[6616]

whitetails have chased mulies out of many areas in the states and are taking over much of B.C.
I prefer to hunt mulies but whitetails are far better eating!!!!
I think that they need to make an area were it is see a wt shoot a wt
just to protect our mulies!
Just some thoughts,(I won't want to live were there are no wt's)

I agree, we need both, and to maintain that balance WTD management strategies need to be more agressive than MD management strategies.

[Kirby]

WT will not replace Mule deer as Mule deer nor get pushed out by WT Mule deer are larger animals and what they term an aggressive species (just like snow geese are and tend to out breed and push out other species) I have seen this happen in Sask where they protected Mule deer and now there are Mule deer all over Sask where at one time they were only seen in the Cypress Hills in small numbers and the Mule deer have pushed out the WT. On hard early winters the two different deer used to breed to each other as they would get snowed in small valleys together but the off spring would die off and not last that long they did not seem to re – breed perhaps the off spring were sterile I am not sure but the off spring were really oddly colored. Besides WT hunting is more of a challenge than Mule deer hunting is anyway and they taste good

That was a good read, thanks for the laugh.:-D

Kirby

[dana]

The one thing about BC that you need to realize is we have very limited winter range. Sure we're a huge province but we also historically have a huge snow belt. IIRC sage/grassland ecosystems make up less than 2% of the total landbase of this province. That is the ecosystem that most picture as classic mule deer winter range. Not so in this province. Most of our winter ranges are Interior Douglas Fir ecosystems especially the steeper southfacing slopes. Not a lot of feed to support huge populations of deer. It don't matter if you are talking whitetail or muleys, the winter range is limited to feed a certain number of deer. If a small piece of winter range has the feed to support 100 deer that doesn't mean 100 whiteys and 100 muleys. That means 100 deer period. Whitetails breed like rabbits. A whitetail doe can be bred in her first year and she can produce triplets year after year. They are also aggessive at taking over new ground, ground where they had never been before. Not so with the muley. So if you have a small winter range that can hold 100 deer and historically that was 100 muleys and a few whitetail does establish themselves in the area, it isn't long before that 100 deer become 80 muleys and 20 whitetails. And then it isn't long before it is 50/50 and then it is a fast end and it becomes 100 whitetails. So yes, they need to be kept in check and the harvesting of whitetail does is the best way to do this. I know in my little piece of the world, whitetails were almost non-existant 15 years ago. It was a rare occurance to see a whitetail during the season let alone a buck. Most people didn't buy a whitetail tag because it would be a waste of money. Now...you'd be a fool not to buy a tag. I can easily kill a buck every year. I hope and pray that the GOS on does does infact happen this year. I also hope they have a 2 whitetail bag limit as well. My kids will be filling the freezer on easy meat every year if that is the case.

[kennyj]

Well said Dana.
kenny

[JDR]

Besides WT hunting is more of a challenge than Mule deer hunting is anyway and they taste good

LOL, not surprised hearing this from someone who has probably only hunted mule deer in the prairies. Try hunting big muley bucks in the mountains in heavily timbered areas and then get back to us with an informed opinion.

[.300WSMImpact!]

I have been reading around the net, and from the info I am getting, it is not the whitetail pushing out the mule deer, it is the climate change making it more suitable for WT, and less for mule deer,

[Gunner]

You can blame climate change for just about anything if you choose to.It doesn't explain why mulies are doing well in areas with a warmer and less snowy climate than ours.Dana is right, winter range will only support so many deer,no matter what species they are.Mulies also do not fare well in areas that have a rapidly expanding elk population.Given that whitetails reproduce and spread as quickly as they do,even a doe season will have a soso chance of slowing them down.I hope it does,I'd rather hunt mulies in the mountains than whitetails in some farmers field! Gunner

[IronNoggin]

WT will not replace Mule deer as Mule deer nor get pushed out by WT Mule deer are larger animals and what they term an aggressive species (just like snow geese are and tend to out breed and push out other species) I have seen this happen in Sask where they protected Mule deer and now there are Mule deer all over Sask where at one time they were only seen in the Cypress Hills in small numbers and the Mule deer have pushed out the WT.

What you are witnessing is MUCH more a reflection of "Management" rather than "natural selection". The Environment Ministry in Saskatchewan intentionally protected Mule deer in vast areas where their range was considered as "Fringe" thus lightly populated. At the same time this was occurring, VERY liberal seasons were allowed for the whitetails in the same areas. As Dana noted above, there is only so much habitat to go around, and each block has a fairly specific "Carrying Capacity" for ungulates. Not tough to figure out that when you harvest one species heavily while protecting the other, the protected species will eventually win out over the other.

I know exactly of what you speak. Hunted Saskatchewan for many years, and witnessed myself the expansion of the Mule Deer over vast areas they were not even a presence in before. And I too admit to capitalizing on those liberal whitetail seasons. We all, through "selective harvest" encouraged by the Environment Ministry created the situation we see today.


Besides WT hunting is more of a challenge than Mule deer hunting is anyway and they taste good

Hunting for Trophy Whitetails is amongst my firmest addictions. It is very much a challenge, especially when limiting yourself to older, mature, Trophy Class (read: INTELLIGENT animals that have survived many hunting seasons by skillfully eluding a good many who hunt them). And although I have hunted Mule Deer in a great many locales (including both the flatlands and the mountains) methinks the Whitetails have the edge in terms of both intelligence and challenge to successfully hunt when targeting true Trophy Class animals.


LOL, not surprised hearing this from someone who has probably only hunted mule deer in the prairies. Try hunting big muley bucks in the mountains in heavily timbered areas and then get back to us with an informed opinion.

Any you just might want to try on Big Muleys in the Sand Hills, the HUGE River Valleys (yes, well timbered) and the smaller tributaries choked with bush. The "prairies" offer a whole lot more than the flatlands you can see across forever that is the image in many misinformed folk's eyes. There are a great many areas that offer up as good a challenge as any timbered ridge to hunt Mule Deer in. Really. Might want to have a boo before suggesting another is somehow "uninformed" based solely upon your own limited experiences :twisted: :mrgreen:

Hoping that one day Saskatchewan will consider allowing Non-Resident hunting of their Mulies. There are some REAL Monsters over there, but don't kid yourself, they certainly don't come easy!

Cheers,
Nog

[6616]

You can blame climate change for just about anything if you choose to.It doesn't explain why mulies are doing well in areas with a warmer and less snowy climate than ours.Dana is right, winter range will only support so many deer,no matter what species they are.Mulies also do not fare well in areas that have a rapidly expanding elk population.Given that whitetails reproduce and spread as quickly as they do,even a doe season will have a soso chance of slowing them down.I hope it does,I'd rather hunt mulies in the mountains than whitetails in some farmers field! Gunner

I agree gunner, climate change may be one of several factors, but there are many factors impacting the decline of mule deer and it's incorrect to just blame climate change. Forage competition between mulies and whiteys is not the only competition factor to consider either, there are other forms of spatial competition involved. It is not correct to think of competition merely in terms of preferred forage species overlap.

Another thing is that the more we alter the natural habitat through human activities, the mose favourable it often becomes for WTD and the less favourable it often becomes for MD. WTD are just very much more adaptive and can use a much wider range of habitat conditions than can MD.

It's also very perceptive that you mentioned elk Gunner, and the Kootenay members should play close attention to this. "Mule Deer Conservation - Issues and Management Strategies" by deVos, Conover, and Headrick, clearly indicates that elk/MD competition is an important factor in the decline of MD. Every area in Northwestern North America that has had significant expansion of elk populations in recent decades, has also seen parallel declines in MD populations. Elk/MD competition is perhaps just as important as WTD/MD competition.

A proper balance of ungulate species based on habitat availability is the key and to maintain that balance aggressive harvest regimes for WTD, and elk where elk exist in large numbers, will be necesary to ensure the future of MD.

And, that's not even mentioning the competition factor between wild ungulates and range cattle in the interior of BC which is another variable that needs factored into this complicated equation.

[bridger]

I agree with Dana's post. The BC Peace country is a good case history. Thirty years ago we had very few whitetails our mix was probably 90/10 for mule deer and has grown to about 50/50 now and is continuing. Whitetails are wintering on the peace and beatton breaks now where before they stayed mostly in farmland. An interesting observation of whitetail mule deer relationships on our land on the upper halfway. Our neighbor that borders us on the south has mule deer on his half section and they come into our field and stay on the south end of our place and the whitetails stay on the north end of the same field. Our neighbor that borders us on the north has about 100 acres in hay or grain and has never shot a mule on his place or seen one. it is really strange just like there is a line there the mulies will not cross.

[deerstocker]

wt will beat the crap out of mule deer everytime --- a 140 class wt will put the run on a 160 class mule deer i dont care where u r a wt is at least 3 times more agresive then mule deer

[Chuck]

Another fact that I believe, and wasn't mentioned. Whitetails, due to their character are more able to capitalize on winter range that mule deer would shun, and thus fare better in lean times. For example, whitetails are known to winter over in areas of high human population and activity - even dogs, like the fringes of town. That's one up on the Mulies imo.

[6616]

Another fact that I believe, and wasn't mentioned. Whitetails, due to their character are more able to capitalize on winter range that mule deer would shun, and thus fare better in lean times. For example, whitetails are known to winter over in areas of high human population and activity - even dogs, like the fringes of town. That's one up on the Mulies imo.

Interestingly the urban deer populations in the East Kootenay communities contain many mule deer.

Why..?

Are mule deer in town because elk and white tailed deer are out-competing them and eating them off the winter range? Are large predator populations driven by high elk and WTD numbers forcing mule deer into town to escape predation?

[sapper]

Interestingly the urban deer populations in the East Kootenay communities contain many mule deer.

Why..?

Are mule deer in town because elk and white tailed deer are out-competing them and eating them off the winter range? Are large predator populations driven by high elk and WTD numbers forcing mule deer into town to escape predation?

I think it's just to tease us. They like to stand just on the town's edge and poke out their tongues as you drive in and out of town.

[sawmill]

I think it's just to tease us. They like to stand just on the town's edge and poke out their tongues as you drive in and out of town.
I believe that.Look at all the 180 class bucks living in Kimberley.SOB`s almost never leave town.They don`t have to,we plant gardens for them.

[GN HNTN]

whitetails have chased mulies out of many areas in the states and are taking over much of B.C.

Last October in Christan valley, I witnessed how aggressive WTs are compared to MDs. I was sitting in my blind when I saw a WT doe with her fawn coming up the hill on a new cut. They almost disappeard into the timbre when she turned around and stared downwards. I looked down and saw a MD with two yearlings and a 2 pointer. Everything looked normal for a few minutes until the WT doe started running down towards the MDs. She quad hoovely chased all of them out of the cut. and returned to her fawn. I have been as close as 10 feet to MD does and spikes. But seriously when was the last time any one of us had more than 5 seconds after a WT spotted us. I have had 3 LEH for WTs and 1 for MD in MU 8-14 in the last 5 Years and my 15 year old has had 2, and we have only harvested 2 WTs. It is because I took big bucks before even LEH started, and that is why their population is growing because people like me do hesitate to shoot a WT doe, or get tagged out with bucks. I do not think that I would stop sending LEH cards, but I only want to shoot a doe that I could make sure that she does'nt have a fawn.

[gwillim]

Another fact that I believe, and wasn't mentioned. Whitetails, due to their character are more able to capitalize on winter range that mule deer would shun, and thus fare better in lean times. For example, whitetails are known to winter over in areas of high human population and activity - even dogs, like the fringes of town. That's one up on the Mulies imo.

Noticed Mulies in town in Nelson this winter. We were walking home late one night past the baseball park and looked down to see a whole herd of mule deer bedded down for the night. We also had a few episodes of cougars coming into town to catch the deer. A few people on the Fairview side of town found dead deer stashed in their backyards.

Just out of town where I go for walks through the winter, I only see mule deer. Once summer roles around the mulies move up to the high country, and the whitetail take over the lower slopes.