Is it time to cull Whitetail does?

[behemoth]

I've been reading Mule Deer Country by Val Geist and he explains that it is only a matter of time that mule deer will become extinct. Not in our lifetime, but eventually.

Many people have a misconception that whitetails outcompete mule deer for food and therefore displace them.

He explains the real reason: Whitetail bucks can impregnate muley does, but Muley bucks cannot mate with whitetail does. Apparently mating behaviour is not compatible in the latter example.

Therefore, ALL hybrid deer are the byproduct of a whitetail buck mating a muley doe. Compounding the problem is the fact that hybrid deer are incapable of mating. Each hybrid represents a mule deer fawn that will never mate, therefore eliminating future generations of mule deer

I saw whitetails on almost every outing last fall in central region 3. Ten years ago I would be lucky to see just one all year. Is it time to open up whitetail does to a liberal season to control their further expansion into mule deer country?

[Islandeer]

Too late!!! Way better letting them slowly starve to death.

Seriously, yes we should cull them heavily, in all regions. And don't let them on our island!

[300H&H]

I would like to see some sort of open season for wt does.
Maybe youth/senior/new/physicaly disabled hunters/bow/black powder.
Perhaps a buck & doe tag. You could shoot a buck & doe on 1 tag.

I believe the buck to doe ratio is not in ballance.

[Gateholio]

I'd like a open season on all whitetails and a generous bag limit, too. They are frickin ugly.:wink:

[Gunner]

There seems to be a good chance that the new regs will have a whitetail doe season in Regions 3,4.8.There's a million of the damn things around here,I had a 1/2 dozen begging for apples after dinner tonight!With this mild winter you'll see a lot of twin fawns this year.Local whitetail does have twin fawns MOST years! Gunner

[moosinaround]

Same situation up in the north here with moose and elk. The hybrid string now called Melk are all over. They are ugly sons a bitches but mmm...mmmm Good!! Moosin

[skibum]

I agree, lot more white tails around. Time to cull them back, but from what I have heard, they are like rats, once you got them in an area, you can't get rid of them

[mark]

Ive changed my hunting tactics in regards to whities! I used to hold out for a decent buck or eat my tag. (which happened more often than not!)
Now Ive decided that Ill hold out for a slammer, wall worthy, whitey buck...or come bow season, Ill take a doe (which is easy)
This...- guarantees me some yummy whitey meat every year!
-My tag will be utilized, 1 less whitey every year!
-I take down a factory, instead of a small buck, thus leaving the small buck to mature, improving my chances at a wall
hanger some day!
-also... by removing 1 deer from the winter range, and improving
the buck to doe ratio, the remaining bucks should produce
better head gear!

I passed several whitey bucks this year, including a small 5x5, then took a doe with my bow this past season!

If everyone adopted this system, we'd all be eating whitey's and having great odds at some huge bucks, while keeping the herd in check!

[luckynuts]

Makes sense Mark. I pass up quite a few mulies using that same principle holding out for a mounter but I won't cut a tag on a mulie doe. though will harvest an average whitetail buck and by the way it's looking won't be able to hunt mulie does any more up here in 7B which I agree with.

W

[behemoth]

I'd take 2 whitey does every year if they let me!!

[Steeleco]

I'd like a open season on all whitetails and a generous bag limit, too. They are frickin ugly.:wink:

But do they taste good??
I'd just as soon shoot a flat top, I can't eat the antlers!!!

[hunter1947]

In WT deer overpopulated areas I would like to see a rule implemented that a hunter has to take a WT doe before he or she can take an antlered buck by doing this it will reduce the does population within the area.

Have WT doe tags in your tag license book that you would have to cut out when you bag your first doe WT deer in the overpopulated area that you must take a doe first before the buck..

then implement a shorter season for WT bucks within the problem area that holds big population of WT does.

[sawmill]

That would work fine.I can spend the first 2 minutes of opening day on does,then go after a buck:mrgreen:

[riflebuilder]

Whitie Does are great eating everyone should be required to take one every year as their civic duty

[3kills]

i have heard that the push for the wt doe season is goin well and looks like there should be season for a month or two not sure bout bag limits though.this is just word that i have hard through grapevines could all be bullshit

[Chuck]

Personally, and I speak only for myself, I would agree that a more liberal season on Whitetail does should be the way to go. They most definitely have become all too common in recent years, but then too I've noted an increase in big cats too - meaning that others have benefitted by this.
Not being a scientist, I'm unsure that Whitetails represent a threat to Muledeer now or in the future. I do know that human interference in Muledeer habitat had hindered their ability to remain up in population in southern B.C.
I suspect clear-cut logging has not been of benefit to our Mule deer, as well as the introduction of Elk. This may seem strange, as there are places where Elk and Mulies do well, and there isn't a tree for miles.
I can't be entirely certain, but having hunted in the southern interior for many years, and noticing what is going on and the accompanying changes that ensue, just gives me that impression. I think that humans, one way or another are most likely responsible for the majority of changes over time, be they good or bad. So when we create this unintentional action/reaction, we should back up, see what it is doing and then correct - which is why I feel that a liberal Whitetail doe season could be warranted.

[gwillim]

"I suspect clear-cut logging has not been of benefit to our Mule deer, as well as the introduction of Elk. This may seem strange, as there are places where Elk and Mulies do well, and there isn't a tree for miles".

There is an ongoming misconception that elk are an introduced species in the west Kootenay...not true (refer to www.kootenay-lake.ca (http://www.kootenay-lake.ca) as a start and check out the elk page).

But back to whitetails, I wonder if there is sufficient numbers of active hunteres to make a dent in whitetail populations, no matter what the bag limit. I make a point of targeting whitetails every year, simply because they are the most abundant species of deer around here, I can hunt within 10 minutes of home, they are pretty tasty, and they are a lot of fun to hunt. Is it just my perception, or do most hunters treat whitetails as a species of last resort?

[Hiker]

WT tend to have twins every year after their first fawn. That alone puts a boatload of them out there compared to mulies one fawn per year. Once they get established they will be next to impossible to thin out.

[luckynuts]

Mulies with only one fawn?????

I have several does with twins hang around my plant every spring/early summer. i will admit they tend to lose one evey year rather than the whities which seem to keep most of their twins.

lets face it mulie doe seasons should be left for the youth and old farts..:mrgreen::-D:shock::tongue:

W

[dawn2dusk]

But do they taste good??
I'd just as soon shoot a flat top, I can't eat the antlers!!!

Any whitetail is way better eats than a rutty mulie. I also much prefer the hunt of a whitetail. They are crafty. I dont care if I take does or bucks as long as it is fair chase, legal, and ethical.

[6616]

Personally, and I speak only for myself, I would agree that a more liberal season on Whitetail does should be the way to go. They most definitely have become all too common in recent years, but then too I've noted an increase in big cats too - meaning that others have benefitted by this.
Not being a scientist, I'm unsure that Whitetails represent a threat to Muledeer now or in the future. I do know that human interference in Muledeer habitat had hindered their ability to remain up in population in southern B.C.
I suspect clear-cut logging has not been of benefit to our Mule deer, as well as the introduction of Elk. This may seem strange, as there are places where Elk and Mulies do well, and there isn't a tree for miles.
I can't be entirely certain, but having hunted in the southern interior for many years, and noticing what is going on and the accompanying changes that ensue, just gives me that impression. I think that humans, one way or another are most likely responsible for the majority of changes over time, be they good or bad. So when we create this unintentional action/reaction, we should back up, see what it is doing and then correct - which is why I feel that a liberal Whitetail doe season could be warranted.

I think you make some good points here Chuck. White tailed deer are much more adaptive and do well in a broad range of habitat conditions in comparison to mule deer. When we alter the eco-system through logging, agriculture or most any other way, we most often inadvertantly make the habitat less suitable for mule deer and more suitable for white tailed deer.

The big cat theory also bears some merit I think. Research in the south-west Kootenay suggests that the expansion of white tailed deer has increased the number of predators which in turn take a heavy toll on mule deer.

White tailed deer expand rapidly under favourable conditions, yearlings breed which mule deer yearlings do not, also white tailed deer does have something like 2.1 fawns per year while mule deer are in the range of 1.5 fawn per year.

It's almost impossible to over-hunt white tailed deer. Population stabilization cannot occur without shooting a good percentage of does annually. Alberta shoots 20% to 25% of their bucks and 8% to 12% of their does annually and their WTD population continues to expand in spite of the fact that their frequency of severe winters is more then twice as often as in southern BC.

We need a whole new attitude towards WTD in BC and the new proposals are right on track in my opinion.

[OutWest]

I definitely think we could use a Doe Season. I hunt around Cherryville for Whities every year and usually manage to take a decent buck but the amount of does you see in a day is ridiculous. We always try and take a doe each but it's just not enough to make any sort of difference.

[peashooter]

we need a doe season but also an increase in the number of whitetails allowed in a season. 1 doe then buck tag rule, but also a doe in late season bow and or youth.

[Jelvis]

How about a no closed season on whitetails just need core and BC License Number with annual license and a valid tags and hunt all year round as many as you can eat.
Jel .. still could'nt get rid of them little deer with big tails .. little bigger than a snow shoe rabbit ..

[dana]

How about a no closed season on whitetails just need core and BC License Number with annual license and a valid tags and hunt all year round as many as you can eat.
Jel .. still could'nt get rid of them little deer with big tails .. little bigger than a snow shoe rabbit ..

Wow! That's the first post of Jelly's that makes absolute sense. I'm baffled and lost for words.

[sapper]

Wow! That's the first post of Jelly's that makes absolute sense. I'm baffled and lost for words.
Agreed! I think Jelly is no longer trying to send secret encrypted messages back to the mothership. Could this mean no more embedded messages where you need to discard every third word to make sense of the post? :???:

[weatherby_man]

Yes, give me more meat!! mmmmmmmm whiteys taste goooood.

[Onesock]

I think the whitetail deer was the cause of JFK's assassination. They are the root of everything evil. Kill'em all!!! Shit whitetail were the cause of last years recession.

[Gateholio]

How about a no closed season on whitetails just need core and BC License Number with annual license and a valid tags and hunt all year round as many as you can eat.
Jel .. still could'nt get rid of them little deer with big tails .. little bigger than a snow shoe rabbit ..

I don't know if we should be shooting does with new fawns, but I'd be in favour of much higher bag limits for whitetails- either sex.

[Chuck]

[QUOTE=gwillim;644301]"I suspect clear-cut logging has not been of benefit to our Mule deer, as well as the introduction of Elk. This may seem strange, as there are places where Elk and Mulies do well, and there isn't a tree for miles".

There is an ongoming misconception that elk are an introduced species in the west Kootenay...not true (refer to www.kootenay-lake.ca (http://www.kootenay-lake.ca) as a start and check out the elk page).

FYI, prior to late 50's, you would probably die trying to find one west of a line running north - south along the west shore of Kootenay Lake.
I believe they weren't even listed technically as a game species, except around Meadow Creek and west of Creston.
First introduced herd soon after the Paulson Hwy built in early 60's in MU 8-15. IMO, transient animals don't count.
I know prehistoric remains of Bighorn Sheep discovered in Salmo, however none remained when white man arrived.

[fullcurl33]

Only the stong survie cull the whitetail, there ugly really give your head a shake . why tell me you guys hate those deer? some of the best on the wall are whities

[Gateholio]

Only the stong survie cull the whitetail, there ugly really give your head a shake . why tell me you guys hate those deer? some of the best on the wall are whities

No really...They are ugly deer:wink:

[Jelvis]

Look at the old blacktail limits on those coastal Islands at one time, I think allowed ten valid tags .. per season, does it help control the populations?
Does it meet the MOE's immediate plan and future goal for that species and it's sustainable plan for winter range requirements being utilized for a healthy browse for proper herd count that can live through a harsh winter on available winter range. Not over run with too many deer for the carrying capacity measure on winter range.
Whitetails are more aggressive then mule deer and bully their way into more space on the best habitat. The shy mule deer tries to avoid this and moves on losing more territory.
Whitetails thrive on ranches and farms and seem to fit better there than the mule deer who seems to like slopes and knobby hills with a view.
I think this season the 2010 Hunting and Trapping Synopsis will have more chances to shoot a whitetail, I've been hearing this up here a bit.
Something needs to be done about the whitetail moving in on the mule deer territory and using and abusing it ... might have to change the gos a bit on whitetail antlerless .. that might help but would need ongoing monitoring by MOE and with budget crisis, I don't think so for the little whitetail that could, maybe a gos for any white tailed buck in B.C.
Jel -- what else could you do?

[Islandeer]

Duh!! Death to the range rats. Part rat,part dog,part freakin crow. Freakin locusts with big freakin tails. Inbred,range destroying tasty little cutlets. 2 per year please.

[huntwriter]

i have heard that the push for the wt doe season is goin well and looks like there should be season for a month or two not sure bout bag limits though.this is just word that i have hard through grapevines could all be bullshit

The whitetail doe season will come and many mule deer does will get killed. Frankly most hunters I spoke too can't tell the difference between the two, doe is doe they say.

[GoatGuy]

The whitetail doe season will come and many mule deer does will get killed. Frankly most hunters I spoke too can't tell the difference between the two, doe is doe they say.

Huh?????????

[GoatGuy]

There is an ongoming misconception that elk are an introduced species in the west Kootenay...not true (refer to www.kootenay-lake.ca (http://www.kootenay-lake.ca) as a start and check out the elk page).


I didn't see anything on that page about elk 'living' throughout the West Kootenay?

When they were transplanted in many areas it was not to boost native populations it was to introduce elk into areas they didn't actually occupy at the time.

Most of the West Kootenay would have never sustained elk or moose or deer for that matter without logging, controlled burns and hayfields and if those practices were to stop in the WK those species would dissapear and other populations which are currently threatened (caribou) might stand a chance with a bit of help.

While there are spots where populations would have occured, survived or small populations would have occured and died out regularly it is not a 'misconception' that elk are introduced to the WK. Many of the areas in the WK are marginal habitat for elk, moose and deer and even now winter range is extremely limited and winter severity is often high. The die-offs are massive and that is with human disturbance creating the habitat.

Regardless it doesn't really matter in terms of wildlife management, but the point is we've created the habitat and the elk have benefited from it.

[6616]

The whitetail doe season will come and many mule deer does will get killed. Frankly most hunters I spoke too can't tell the difference between the two, doe is doe they say.

Not true in areas where WTD are common (Kootenay/Okanagan)

Guess you'll have to put together an identification seminar...

[bridger]

The whitetail doe season will come and many mule deer does will get killed. Frankly most hunters I spoke too can't tell the difference between the two, doe is doe they say.

you are kidding right?

[Chuck]

I'll take it by what I've read, that we pretty well all agree to a more liberal hunting season regarding the Whitetail, and especially the does.
Now if I could convince someone to relax the rules regarding the discharge of shotguns within the city limits - the bloody crows are just driving me mad with their noise at the crack of dawn. Talk about murder!

[trapperRick]

I truely don't understand why having WT is bad I am from Sask and prefer WT hunting over Mules anyday they are smarter and taste better mind you mule deer bucks here are way smarter than in Sask back home you can almost hit them in the head to get them they are so dumb

[.300WSMImpact!]

I think you should cull the mule deer let the whitetail thrive, we will all be happier if we do, better hunting, better meat, and better racks, nuf said!

[Gateholio]

]
I truely don't understand why having WT is bad

It is easy to understand why you don't understand, it's right here:


I am from Sask


:wink:

[stanway]

The whitetail doe season will come and many mule deer does will get killed. Frankly most hunters I spoke too can't tell the difference between the two, doe is doe they say.


I don't agree. I believe most hunters can tell the difference between the two. The 'hunters' (& I use the term loosely) you describe will likely not be able to tell the difference between a Mulie buck & a Whitetail buck either. :wink:

[sawmill]

The whitetail doe season will come and many mule deer does will get killed. Frankly most hunters I spoke too can't tell the difference between the two, doe is doe they say.

Huh???I sure don`t want to hunt around the guys you talk to.:confused:

[huntwriter]

Huh?????????

"Huh" is what I said too after I showed several whitetail deer doe and mule deer doe pictures to about 200 BC hunters. Only 25.6% got it right.

About a year ago on this forum someone (forgot the name) did the same a small minority could tell the difference between a whitetail doe and mule deer doe.

[Gateholio]

Well, lets see...


http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=645559&posted=1#post645559

[6616]

I truely don't understand why having WT is bad

It's not, I love hunting white tails as I'm sure many on here do as well.

It's just a matter of balance between species, white tails are more adaptive and productive and tend to take over areas if they're not harvested at appropriate levels.

All we're suggesting is an appropriate white tailed deer management system very similar to like they have in Saskatchewan where there is a lengthy "any deer" season that keeps populations below carrying capacity and lessens the likelyhood of major winter die-offs.

The bucks only system we've had in BC is not working to control population densities and it's also not capitalizing on the potential opportunities.

I'd sooner see guys putting white tailed does in their freezer than leaving them out there on the winter ranges to feed a growing wolf population which in turn then eat elk, mule deer, and bighorn sheep.

[dana]

Those that think whiteys are smart ain't never hunted them before in Region 3. My latest strategy is to stand still when I jump one, watch the flag run straight away and then watch it arc in a circle and end up pretty much right beside me again, where I kill it. I never see muleys this dumb.

[dana]

6616,
One thing I've noticed is the wolves in these parts don't seem to enjoy the taste of whiteys. They much prefer muleys and moose. I guess they ain't much different than me. ;)

[gwillim]

I didn't see anything on that page about elk 'living' throughout the West Kootenay?

When they were transplanted in many areas it was not to boost native populations it was to introduce elk into areas they didn't actually occupy at the time.

Most of the West Kootenay would have never sustained elk or moose or deer for that matter without logging, controlled burns and hayfields and if those practices were to stop in the WK those species would dissapear and other populations which are currently threatened (caribou) might stand a chance with a bit of help.

While there are spots where populations would have occured, survived or small populations would have occured and died out regularly it is not a 'misconception' that elk are introduced to the WK. Many of the areas in the WK are marginal habitat for elk, moose and deer and even now winter range is extremely limited and winter severity is often high. The die-offs are massive and that is with human disturbance creating the habitat.

Regardless it doesn't really matter in terms of wildlife management, but the point is we've created the habitat and the elk have benefited from it.

The information that I thought might be interesting to people on this site is as follows...

"Unlike the horse, the elk is not an introduced species; it has been here since the last ice age. But, like Kokanee (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../../../waterworld/fish/kokanee/index.html), elk have received support. In the end, David Shackleton was able to comment in Hoofed Mammals of British Columbia, (Royal BC Museum, 1999): “The present distribution of Rocky Mountain Elk is thought to be about the same as it was in the 1700s and early 1800s”. "

No mention was made as to elk being "throughout" the West Kootenay, any more than they are at the present time. It is true that both white-tail deer and elk seem to benefit (and caribou suffer) from large scale disturbance resulting from logging, agriculture, or wildfires. Large parts of the West Kootenay burned in the first half of the twentieth century, partly due to long term drought, and fire starts resulting from railways and mining activity. Prior to the drought, the "little ice age" created conditions favourable to caribou; low fire return, and large areas of open mature forest.

The bigger point here is that game populations will respond to the long term changes in habitat brought about by changes in the climate. Trying to artificially maintain old growth dependant species in the face of increasing summer drought, and higher mean annual temperatures is a losing battle.

[GoatGuy]

The information that I thought might be interesting to people on this site is as follows...

"Unlike the horse, the elk is not an introduced species; it has been here since the last ice age. But, like Kokanee (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../../../waterworld/fish/kokanee/index.html), elk have received support. In the end, David Shackleton was able to comment in Hoofed Mammals of British Columbia, (Royal BC Museum, 1999): “The present distribution of Rocky Mountain Elk is thought to be about the same as it was in the 1700s and early 1800s”. "

No mention was made as to elk being "throughout" the West Kootenay, any more than they are at the present time. It is true that both white-tail deer and elk seem to benefit (and caribou suffer) from large scale disturbance resulting from logging, agriculture, or wildfires. Large parts of the West Kootenay burned in the first half of the twentieth century, partly due to long term drought, and fire starts resulting from railways and mining activity. Prior to the drought, the "little ice age" created conditions favourable to caribou; low fire return, and large areas of open mature forest.

The bigger point here is that game populations will respond to the long term changes in habitat brought about by changes in the climate. Trying to artificially maintain old growth dependant species in the face of increasing summer drought, and higher mean annual temperatures is a losing battle.

"Artificially maintain old growth dependent species because of increasing summer drought and higher mean annual temperatures." Is this a joke?

The columbia basin comp burns, logging, highways, FSRs, snowmobiles, reservoirs, exploration and cities are a result of drought and higher mean temperatures? So is the influx of elk, moose, deer and resulting predators?

Shackleton's statements are broad based no different than high level thoughts on distribution of shiras moose. ESSF and deer, elk or moose are not synonymous particularly given little to NO natural winter range and I can assure you if Shackleton sat down and looked at the distribution of these species in the WK he'd tell you they aren't supposed to be there as will a handful of other biologists and PHds who study caribou.

There are several parts of the West Kootenay where there should not be elk, moose or deer. As a result there should also be no cougars and few wolves. Populations are spurious and suffer from huge winter mortality in what cannot be considered more than moderate winters. In most of the areas the only reason these ungulates and resulting predators occur in any kind of numbers is due solely to man. The chain of reservoirs from Kinbasket down has changed the entire ecosystem from Valemount south to the border and that has not benefited caribou or bears for that matter. To believe that climate change is the driving force is rediculous.

This is almost as bad as the argument that the elk's genetics in the West Kootenay have somehow become superior to the elk in the East Kootenay from where they were transplanted in what is less than one second in terms of evolution. This from people who actually have been given a piece of paper that says they've sat through some classes on biology albeit with eyes, ears and minds closed.

Apparently elk genetics improve with age.

[gwillim]

Sorry this is getting confusing...so when Shacketon says “The present distribution of Rocky Mountain Elk is thought to be about the same as it was in the 1700s and early 1800s”, what he really means is that elk are an introduced species in the West Kootenays? Not being an RPBio I am missing the subtleties of your arguement.

The other bit about climate having no effect on the natural distribution of forest cover age classes is also a bit of a stretch. The only reason we haven't lost the majority of our old seral classes throughout the southern Selkirks is due to the remarkable efficiency of our initial attack fire fighting. The huge drop in losses to wildfires since the 50's is due primarily to improved fire fighting technique, backed up by modern aircraft.

The popular elk areas for the coming season apparently will be Mt. Sentinel, Goose creek, and the Bonnington range, all great elk habitat, not because of BC hydro or the forest industry, but because of landscape scale wildfires in the mid 20th century.

[gwillim]

Ooops, I'm being a jerk! Please ignore the prickly tone, but not the content of the last post. I have been doing a lot of research on Range of Natural Variability (RoNV) lately, and am all too aware of the balance of age classes in the various Landscape Units around the Southern Selkirks, and all the various arguements about cause and effect. The sad reality I see is that if present trends continue, we will see many more white-tail, many less mule deer, and no caribou at all. The landscape units around here are at about 3-5% old seral stage timber cover, where historically they would have been at 15-30% (depending on BEC subzone). Compare pictures of Kokanee glacier from the 70's to the present and you will get a pretty stark picture of the effects of increasing mean annual temperature.

[GoatGuy]

I believe in terms of distribution he's only referring to where they occur not where they should occur.

Was under the impression ICHwk, ICHvk and ESSFvc was generally not part of what's considered a fire maintained ecosystem.

Really not concerned about the 'popular' areas. Alkolkolex, Tangiers all the way down the Arrow lakes sure don't scream elk.

Predation from cougars on caribou is also a going concern in areas that without logging there would be no deer, elk or moose.

In terms of the southern end there is certainly habitat there and probably where you're focusing on and when Shackleton talks about historical distribution that's is where he's talking about.