Hunting crown, private or range land

[cuervosail]

I've been playing around on the IMapBC website trying to figure out whether land is public, private, etc. Using the various layer controls, a bit of land I'm interested in hunting isn't highlighted when I have both the crown and private layers switched on. When I switch on "active range" (i.e cattle ranges) that chunk of land shows up as falling within a licensed bit of rangeland. I've seen the cattle fence in the bush, so it's pretty easy to see where the boundary of the range is. Do I need permission from the range licence holder to hunt that bit of ground or is it considered to be crown land and I can whenever I want?

[Benthos]

from the regs



Wildlife Act (Section 39) - A person is
not permitted to hunt on cultivated land
or on Crown land which is subject to a
grazing lease while the land is occupied
by livestock, without the consent of the
owner, lessee or occupant of the land.


so, if there are cattle present, probably need permission.

[6616]

If it's a grazing lease you need permission from the lease holder to access it. If it's a grazing license you do not.

[peterrum3]

If it's a grazing lease you need permission from the lease holder to access it. If it's a grazing license you do not.

What is the difference between a lease and a licence. I thought that ranchers paid the grazing lease on a yearly basis through a bid system. And how do you know you are on a grazing lease, other than there are cattle in the area and fencing. There are no signs posted. I know of no one who seeks permission from the cattle owner to hunt their lease of crown land. I have property that is surrounded by crown land and there is and 8000 acre grazing lease on it and there are other grazing leases beyond that. Based on Sec. 39 of the wildlife act I can't hunt around my property unless i seek permission from the owner of the cattle. Thats not going to happen as me and the rancher do not get along and he would say no. Lots of people are hunting these leases and I suspect that not one of them has sought permission from the rancher who owns the cattle. The rancher is paying a lease to feed his cattle, this law gives them the power to decide who does or does not hunt on crown land........its not realistic.

[shadow1982]

Lets say you lease a Office building for a year, so i am making rent payment for a year, now i should have a say in who visits my building and who should not. I mean real estate is real estate, crown or private, in crown's case your landlord is government. To me it is realistic.

Now as per you requiring permission, if people are doing it without permission, its still illigal.

[Mauser98]

With a Grazing Lease, the holder is given some rights to the land including the right of private use when the land is occupied by cattle. With a Grazing Licence or a Grazing Permit the holder is given rights to the grass and the area covered is available for other users(ie hunters).

There are actually very few Grazing Leases in BC and, according to the Ministry of Forests and Range website, no new ones are being issued.

[tomahawk]

I know of no one who seeks permission from the cattle owner to hunt their lease of crown land.

Lots of people are hunting these leases and I suspect that not one of them has sought permission from the rancher who owns the cattle. The rancher is paying a lease to feed his cattle, this law gives them the power to decide who does or does not hunt on crown land........its not realistic.

And that in a nut shell is one reason why there is so much concern from the MOE about hunters being illegally on lease or private land!

Like it or not its the law, I'd like to know what makes you feel that somehow your better than or above the law?

[peterrum3]

I partly agree with your analogy but you cannot bar the landlord from doing what he needs or wants to do with his property. If the landlord says that he wants to bring a carpenter, roofer or plumber in, you can't stop him.

The grazing lease is for a specific purpose, to use the land to feed the cattle with the grasses that are on it. By having that lease should they control the rights to logging, mining, hunting, camping, hiking, or any other activity that is going to take place on it. I think not. Sec. 39 of the Wildlife act only covers hunting, why that one activity? Are they afraid that I don't know the difference between a cow and a deer or moose.

Alot of this province is covered by grazing rights. The vast majority of hunters will have at one time or another hunted on crown land which is grazing land that has an existing lease. I know that is a fact, I see it every year. So each one of those thousands of hunters are in contravention of this section of the wildlife act and hunting illegally. I still dont agree with it and I wont do it. I pay the govt. for a hunting licence and tags which allow me to hunt my land or crown land or privately owned land if allowed. What if the rancher says no, you can't hunt his lease area except for a cost? What if all the ranchers with grazing leases banded together and said no hunting allowed on our leases during the grazing season. There goes the fall until the leases are over, which in my area is around the middle of October. How much Crown land would that involve in this province? The Kootenays, Okanagan and the Cariboo are covered with grazing leases. I don't know about much of the rest of the province but I suspect it is the same.

I would like to hear from a rancher on this site who has grazing rights to get their insight. What do you think of Sec. 39 of the Wildlife Act. Is it something you rely upon? Why is it in place? Is it one of those old laws that just hasn't been taken off the books yet? Do you want scores if not hundreds of hunters phoning you to get permission to hunt the land you have a grazing lease on? What would you do if I hunted on your grazing lease?

[peterrum3]

And that in a nut shell is one reason why there is so much concern from the MOE about hunters being illegally on lease or private land!

Like it or not its the law, I'd like to know what makes you feel that somehow your better than or above the law?

I am not talking about private land here, I am only talking about leased crown land that has a grazing lease on it. Private property is a no brainer, I don't hunt it without permission and welcome the MOE to enforce that.

I am not talking about being above the law here. Heck I didnt even know that this Section of the Wildlife Act( the leased grazing portion) was in place until a year ago and I have hunted for over 20 years. I am talking about my right to hunt, my right to hunt on crown land which I own as a citizen and pay the govt. for that right to hunt. The issue is control of a large portion of the crown land in the province by individuals to say who does or does not hunt on it based on a grazing lease.

[peterrum3]

With a Grazing Lease, the holder is given some rights to the land including the right of private use when the land is occupied by cattle. With a Grazing Licence or a Grazing Permit the holder is given rights to the grass and the area covered is available for other users(ie hunters).

There are actually very few Grazing Leases in BC and, according to the Ministry of Forests and Range website, no new ones are being issued.

That clears it up a little, there is a difference between the lease and licence or permit. Maybe what I am thinking are leases are actually permits.

[tomahawk]

I am not talking about private land here, I am only talking about leased crown land that has a grazing lease on it. Private property is a no brainer, I don't hunt it without permission and welcome the MOE to enforce that.

I am not talking about being above the law here. Heck I didnt even know that this Section of the Wildlife Act( the leased grazing portion) was in place until a year ago and I have hunted for over 20 years. I am talking about my right to hunt, my right to hunt on crown land which I own as a citizen and pay the govt. for that right to hunt. The issue is control of a large portion of the crown land in the province by individuals to say who does or does not hunt on it based on a grazing lease.

Good point about the right to hunt, I see your train of thought now!

[6616]

What is the difference between a lease and a licence. I thought that ranchers paid the grazing lease on a yearly basis through a bid system. And how do you know you are on a grazing lease, other than there are cattle in the area and fencing. There are no signs posted. I know of no one who seeks permission from the cattle owner to hunt their lease of crown land. I have property that is surrounded by crown land and there is and 8000 acre grazing lease on it and there are other grazing leases beyond that. Based on Sec. 39 of the wildlife act I can't hunt around my property unless i seek permission from the owner of the cattle. Thats not going to happen as me and the rancher do not get along and he would say no. Lots of people are hunting these leases and I suspect that not one of them has sought permission from the rancher who owns the cattle. The rancher is paying a lease to feed his cattle, this law gives them the power to decide who does or does not hunt on crown land........its not realistic.

If the land is not posted private or leased it's probably only a grazing permit and you don't need permission. There are no 8000 acre grazing leases in BC, if it's actually that big it's for sure only a grazing permit tenure, go where you please but don't shoot the cows. See Mauser98's post, he has it exactly correct.

[6616]

Sec. 39 of the Wildlife act only covers hunting, why that one activity? Are they afraid that I don't know the difference between a cow and a deer or moose.

There goes the fall until the leases are over, which in my area is around the middle of October. How much Crown land would that involve in this province? The Kootenays, Okanagan and the Cariboo are covered with grazing leases. I don't know about much of the rest of the province but I suspect it is the same.

I would like to hear from a rancher on this site who has grazing rights to get their insight. What do you think of Sec. 39 of the Wildlife Act.

The majority of grazing tenures in the province are grazing licenses (also called permits). There are very few leases and leases are usually posted as if they were private. Grazing licenses are only in effect until the cows come off in Oct as you say, but leases are different, they're in force year around, just like private property.

Don't be mislead by Sec 39 of the WLA either, the Trespass Act supposedly supercedes the Wildlife Act and states you cannot access leased land anytime, for any reason, without permit from the lease holder. That makes Section 39 of the WLA pretty much redundant.

[6616]

More info FYI:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/publications/00005/Ch20-Brochure.pdf

[6616]

Leases (pink) vrs licenses (grey), map courtesy of J_T.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Land_Act_Leases_2.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=19742&limit=recent)

[J_T]

A lease is a formal interest in the land. It is maintained each year by paying rent.
A licence is a chattel interest in the land. It is maintained from year to year by meeting certain conditions (not always a rent payment). If the holder of a licence fails to comply with the conditions, the licence may end. Thus a chattel.

As 6616 says, almost all crown land that is tenured is held by a permit/licence and is not a lease. IE: The province has 16 million hectares of mining claims (licences) but only a very small (likely less that 1,000 hectares) as mining leases. Grazing licences and leases would probably have comparable ratios.