Attention Sheep Hunters

[kgriz]

here's a question....

Under the following definition from the wildlife act:

"hunt" includes shooting at, attracting, searching for, chasing, pursuing, following after or on the trail of, stalking or lying in wait for wildlife, or attempting to do any of those things, whether or not the wildlife is then or subsequently wounded, killed or captured,
(a) with intention to capture the wildlife, or
(b) while in possession of a firearm or other weapon;

I wonder why hunters ( and probably CO's ) don't seem to have a problem with a person that heads into sheep country in late July to go "scout out" a legal ram for openning day while carrying a firearm....it would seem that this constitutes hunting under the definition....even if you are carrying for "protection from wildlife" as it does not stipulate why you have a weapon.

Obviously other species are the same....sheep just comes to mind because long walks are often involved and rifles are likely to be with you.

And if its "let go" using the logic that you're not really hunting because its not the season...then why can't you fly into an area with a helicopter before the season, stay into the season, harvest a ram and then walk out?? or can you perhaps....I fail to see the difference at least with the english...obviously the intent is different.

[mark]

Nothing illegal about going for a hike with a gun!
I believe, you can fly into an area with a helicopter, it becomes illegal if you intend to hunt while there!

[kennyj]

If you have PAL you're allowed to carry a rifle, and you're always allowed to observe wildlife.You Can't use a helicopter to transport hunters or hunting gear in BC period.
That's how I see it.
kenny

[boxhitch]

The rule is there to be used when necessary, at the discretion of the LEOs
If they want to label someone they can, but probably don't actively pursue it.
Just another hammer available

[kgriz]

Boxhitch, I completely agree with you....I just found it odd that in thinking of this that most hunters wouldn't find fault in the following story ( at least "ethical fault"):

A "hard-core" sheep hunter walks in 50 miles a week early to scout out his trophy ram and finds him by july 31st ( while carrying his rifle) and sleeps on the mountain wrapped in a tarp to shoot him at first light on Aug 1st.

while, thow in the word helicopter and it goes out the window....its seems to me like saying "speeding is ok" as long as its in a car that the cops like.

[kgriz]

Oh and as per page 18 part 7, it reads to me that its would be perfectly legal to transport all of your equipment ( including your gun ) in a helicopter as long as you never were in it...ie. you get it dropped off and you don't transport your animal with it either.
So following the " perfectly legal" to carry a gun and observe wildlife arguement... Its not a giant leap to say that before the season you weren't "hunting" from the chopper either. I wouldn't do it simply tp avoid the hassle but it is curious that one action is clearly ignored while the other would be major trouble

[bridger]

three or four years ago one of the guide outfitters in 7b challenged the helicopter law and won. the case i believe is under appeal to the supreme court. one of his hunters (also a partner) from the states took a helicopter from fort nelson into their base camp. then took the chopper into their spike camp. landed killed a caribou a couple of days later then flew with the chopper back to fort nelson. the guide took the head and rifle out by super cub. the co's arrested the hunter and charged him with hunting with helicopter. the judge ruled that the mere act of flying from one destination to another did not consitute hunting by helicopter no diffferent than driving a truck, riding a horse, etc. As far as scouting days ahead of opening day a lot of guys do it and unless you actually shot a ram i don't think the co's are going to worry about it.

[boxhitch]

A "hard-core" sheep hunter walks in 50 miles a week early to scout out his trophy ram and finds him by july 31st ( while carrying his rifle) and sleeps on the mountain wrapped in a tarp to shoot him at first light on Aug 1st.

IF there was hard evidence, and solid witnesses and IF the complaint went to a CO with the desire, then charges could be laid. Case would have to be solid.

.
...I just found it odd that in thinking of this that most hunters wouldn't find fault in the following story ( at least "ethical fault"):
Guess that depends on how far it can be stretched
A shed hunter ultimately kills the rb buck he has followed for years ?
A duck hunter takes part in a community bird count ?
Someone hangs out several trail cams pre-season opener to decide on a first stand site ?
A feed station is set-up prior to a season ?

When does pre-scouting end and hunting begin ?

Common-sense and discretion
Ethics are only defined by an individuals own conscience.

[kgriz]

I have just heard the "hard-core" sheep hunter type of story a bunch of times and thought how it would apply to this law....I certainly don't agree with how it could apply....mostly it was to act as an eye-openner....lots of people do things and then brag about it without ever knowing that it might not have been right in the first place.

[kgriz]

"Guess that depends on how far it can be stretched
A shed hunter ultimately kills the rb buck he has followed for years ?
A duck hunter takes part in a community bird count ?
Someone hangs out several trail cams pre-season opener to decide on a first stand site ?
A feed station is set-up prior to a season ?

When does pre-scouting end and hunting begin ?

Common-sense and discretion
Ethics are only defined by an individuals own conscience.

I generally agree with this except that any trophy hunter that has done what I'm talking about knows in their heart that what they are doing is exactly the same as 99.9% of the time during the season...ie. searching for a trophy while in possession of a firearm...most of the time an animal is not harvested...even during the season. The part that I find particularly funny is how a group of the hard-core sheep hunters on this site dog-pile on somebody who may have done something they don't "agree" with yet would have no trouble ignoring or even participating in this action....Does it boil down to " If a CO interprets it as OK then its OK???" I'm sure some Judges and Lawyers would disagree.

[bighornbob]

This rule is broken a million times a year by all hunters, not just sheep hunters.

What about the rule of not hunting 1 hour before sunrise. As the definition of "hunt" is explained, duck and goose hunters putting out decoys in the dark would be breaking the law. What about a guy hiking a couple hours in the dark to get to his favorite basin to be there at sunrise for elk or a mulie? What about anyone that drives more then an hour before sunrise to get to their spot. What about a tree stand hunter that gets into his tree quite early.

I think the jist of the law is there to prosecute people that are breaking the law but have not yet killed or shot something. Like pitlamping, you dont need to be shooting to be charged, just the act of using a light and having a weapon is enough.

BHB

[kgriz]

"I think the jist of the law is there to prosecute people that are breaking the law but have not yet killed or shot something....."

Using the exact same wording to prosecute in one breath yet ignore in another just seems a bit too subjective to me.:???:

[kgriz]

Oh....and I agree with the rest of the statements about sunrise etc....seems like a change could be used....choosing whether to prosecute somebody on basically the notion of whether the officer "likes" or "agrees" with it seems a little too easy to abuse...especially when the wording is so clear.

[Dirty]

So it would be legal if you took a Helicopter into sheep country a month before the season opened, took a camera, and took pictures; However, you hiked back to the same area after the season opened and shot a ram?

Sounds like expensive scouting to me. :mrgreen:

[MIL720]

Boxhitch, I completely agree with you....I just found it odd that in thinking of this that most hunters wouldn't find fault in the following story ( at least "ethical fault"):

A "hard-core" sheep hunter walks in 50 miles a week early to scout out his trophy ram and finds him by july 31st ( while carrying his rifle) and sleeps on the mountain wrapped in a tarp to shoot him at first light on Aug 1st.

while, thow in the word helicopter and it goes out the window....its seems to me like saying "speeding is ok" as long as its in a car that the cops like.
MOST sheep hunters pack a rifle while scouting for protection from predators...Just ask Brambles....

[kgriz]

I think it often makes a difference of why you might have a gun depending if you're up north ( where the time to walk somewhere is generally greater) in which case you have your gun because it'll take a couple of days to get where you'll actually hunt during the season vs down south where there are generally more roads and a scouting trip may actually just be a day trip...not scouting on your way to your hunting destination. The northern example you have your gun because you need to take it with you to hunt with when you get there and the southern example ( ie. day trip ), if you have a gun it is only for protection.....regardless the definition of hunting does not seem to differentiate why you have a firearm with you......as for the suggestion of why you need a firearm...your preaching to the choir on that one...I have a authorization to carry a restricted weapon for work and have ( and do ) ecourage anybody that works in the bush to PM me if they want advice on how to get one. I've had my share of serious run-ins with predators and strongly recommend people that are applicable to look into it ( I do not agree with the governements' opinion of who should be applicable but good luck in changing that):-|

[kgriz]

Oh, and to clarify....I DO NOT agree with how this definition seems to apply.....I just thought that some people should be really careful how they opennly dog-pile on some practices because they think that it may be "illegal" while they would endorse this one.

[Gateholio]

I'd think the only way someone could get charged with "hunting out of season" when they are doing some legitimate "pre scouting" is if they incriminated themselves.

It's legal to hike with a rifle for protection or shooting schedule C animals.

[bigwhiteys]

I'd think the only way someone could get charged with "hunting out of season" when they are doing some legitimate "pre scouting" is if they incriminated themselves.

By killing, or attempting to kill any wildlife they don't have a tag for or are out of season would be my guesstimate. The northern C/O's see trucks/trailers parked along the access corridors a week or more before August 1st every year they don't seem to concerned. It's a small sheep hunting world if you try and get away with stuff like that!

Carl

[Maxx]

By killing, or attempting to kill any wildlife they don't have a tag for or are out of season would be my guesstimate. The northern C/O's see trucks/trailers parked along the access corridors a week or more before August 1st every year they don't seem to concerned. It's a small sheep hunting world if you try and get away with stuff like that!

Carl


I agree with you, but if read to letter what Kgriz posted, technically if you ""sit" on a ram for 2 days before opening- that is "hunting", is it not??

[Gateholio]

By killing, or attempting to kill any wildlife they don't have a tag for or are out of season would be my guesstimate.

Carl

Yes, that too:-D

But what I mean is if a CO asks you what you are doing hiking through the woods wih a rifle a day before the season starts and he asks you what you are doing and you reply "I am hunting" instead of "I am scouting":wink:

Very unlikely scenario anyway, because as you point out- they aren't concerned about the trailers and trucks prior to the season opener.:-D

[robyn2345]

rules are just guidelines they are ment to be broken and bent. if you have the right lawyer and lots of money you can do anything

[kgriz]

I just put it out to be aware of.....alls fine until you "scoop" an animal that somebody had earmarked for themselves; god help you if its an off-duty CO, MOE guy, friend of etc. ( ie. somebody with more possible authority than an average hunter ) and they decide to make a stink out of it.....I thought that most people wouldn't have ever thought of the idea being illegal and that it might help make an educated decision; whether you think its good or bad, legal or up for debate, ethical or not.

[Rubicon500]

say if you had a boat loads of money, you flew your helicopter to Muncho lake, hopped on a plane and flew into your favorite sheep hole it would be illegal ? wonder where they draw the line with hunting from a helicopter ? Because technically your going hunting the minute you left your house ?

[kgriz]

Seems to me from the wording of diefining "hunting" and the unlawful portion about helicopters transporting hunters or meat that a different scenario would be hiring a helicopter to drop you and your gear off and then a separate trip for your rifle ( ie. somebody else with a PAL transports your gun)that things would be OK as per the letter of the law...it would seem that a judge might also have thought so as per earlier in the discussion....but wow would it tick people off. I don't see how you could ever be shown to be "hunting" as long as you are not in possession of a firearm ( in the chopper) as long as you aren't going to "capture" an animal with your hands or use a "non-weapon" or air-rifle etc.

[kgriz]

I'm not sure quite how to draw the line of what point in time you are hunting when you have a firearm with you ie. driving to your spot etc....but I don't see how you could be considered "hunting" and therefore being a "hunter" without being in possession of a weapon while hunting for big game ie.something you can't "capture" without a weapon.