Spatzizi Provincial Park open discussion

[safarichris]

I would like to know in a ''civil discussion'', what are the Forum Members views when roads are being blocked by Natives, denying the Canadian Public access to a Provincial Park. A Park created so Canadians could ''All'' benefit. Keep it civil or they will shut us down.

[BiG Boar]

can someone fill in what is exactly happening? I am very uneducated as to what the problem is.

[gonehunting]

they are breaking the law there is no grey area

[Gateholio]

I think members of the general public will be more interested in removing native blockades for access to parks, than just access to hunters.

[835]

you know...
back when the huggers blocked Carmanah / walbran an then clayoquot sound the same thing happened as this klapan etc only one was white and one was indian they were for two different reasons but access was blocked in both cases.
Who cares white or brown look at the isseu.
thoes of you who think only indians have blocked roads look again white huggers did it befor Oka.
again i dont aggree in any case mentioned here but remove the native factor from the discussion, other than it is indians doing it
look at the isseu

[BlacktailStalker]

General public are the key words here.
All categories of users fall within that term, of which, no discrimination should be able to be applied to any such group.

[moosinaround]

Maybe folks blocking the access should be trying to educate users rather than block users out. Is there scientific data suggesting that there should be no access, and that access to this area would be detrimental to its health as an ecosystem??? I figure that it is a Canadian park open to ALL Canadians regardless of race color or creed!!! Now if users are damaging the park and it's associated ecosystems then bust them, don't close it down for everyone to have access to!!

[835]

i agree, if we are damaging somewhere someone should step in and protect it. Someone official not just any willy nilly "i think this is bad" person. Thoes road blocks should be ripped up taken down and then immediate action should be taken to look into the validity of their reasoning. I dont want to be the guy to shoot the last moose but i aslo dont want anybody stopping me from what is legal to do.

[835]

I tried in post #2. Not trying to high jack the thread, but a side issue to the Carmnan/Walbran protest, I had a couple of occasions to go to the west coast of the island when that was in progress. Their 'area' of note, called the Black Hole, was well named. I found it amazing the mess this supposed environmentally conscience group left behind for locals to clean up.

Trust me i know,
it was a mess, two tandom dump trucks to clean it and they burned down a bridge. Justifying it by saying "the loggers are making a bigger mess and this is our statement"
As i said i do not agree with these methods i was just stating that white guys do it too.

[gutpile]

General public are the key words here.
All categories of users fall within that term, of which, no discrimination should be able to be applied to any such group.
tell that to the goverment or the general public see if they wiil agree with you good luck!.... keep on dreaming.

[444marlin]

I did a trip about through the Spatsizi about 10 years ago. We paid Hal (Tatogga Lake) to drive us to the trail head. We then carried our gear 5 km to the Spatsizi River and proceeded to drift through the park connecting up with the Stikine and down to the Highway 37 bridge. We were not interested in shooting a moose on the Klappan grade. We even passed on a nice bull. Are the natives stopping hunters wanting to hunt just the park? What about canoeists (non hunters) wanting to do a similar trip in the fall?

[40incher]

One aspect of this issue that needs to be realized is that this whole thing has a great deal to do with guide-outfitters in the area, some of whom are Tahltan and some who are not.

The reason for the blockades (supposedly) was that the non-native hunt was infringing on Section 35 FSC harvesting rights. Only resident hunters were stopped, non-residents were unaffected.

What is becoming apparent now is that there is a push to turn these Section 35 rights to harvest for food and ceremonial purposes into a right to change this allocation into a commercial hunt (i.e. guided). This statement was made at a recent meeting regarding hunting in the Stikine Parks.

The silent culprits in this discussion are the MOE bureaucrats who prefer the non-hunting use of Parks over us hunters. Although hunters (resident and guided) make up 80% to 90% of the Spatsizi visitors it is a constant battle with Parks Branch who choose to restrict and limit hunters while encouraging use by the leaf-lickin' crowd.

MOE at this time is contemplating reducing the moose season in the Klappan from 90 days to 30 days, and from 90 days to 60 days in the rest of area North of the Stikine. They have stated clearly this reduction in opportunity is not being done as a conservation concern for moose.

MOE no longer advocates for hunters like they should. They also prefer people management over real wildlife management.

Hunting is a legitimate and historical use in Spatsizi, and all the Northern Parks, and it was hunters who lead the fight to protect the area from industrial development. Why then are we treated like a second-class?

[835]

Bottem line to me, at the Black Hole or the Klapan site, hold those leaving the mess or blocking the road accountable for their actions. If you don't, by your/our acquiescence you/we legitimise it and as far as I'm concerned it shouldn't matter what group, ethnic or otherwise!!


exactly....... rip the blocks up and then deal with the problem

[Devilbear]

One aspect of this issue that needs to be realized is that this whole thing has a great deal to do with guide-outfitters in the area, some of whom are Tahltan and some who are not.



The reason for the blockades (supposedly) was that the non-native hunt was infringing on Section 35 FSC harvesting rights. Only resident hunters were stopped, non-residents were unaffected.


What is becoming apparent now is that there is a push to turn these Section 35 rights to harvest for food and ceremonial purposes into a right to change this allocation into a commercial hunt (i.e. guided). This statement was made at a recent meeting regarding hunting in the Stikine Parks.


The silent culprits in this discussion are the MOE bureaucrats who prefer the non-hunting use of Parks over us hunters. Although hunters (resident and guided) make up 80% to 90% of the Spatsizi visitors it is a constant battle with Parks Branch who choose to restrict and limit hunters while encouraging use by the leaf-lickin' crowd.


MOE at this time is contemplating reducing the moose season in the Klappan from 90 days to 30 days, and from 90 days to 60 days in the rest of area North of the Stikine. They have stated clearly this reduction in opportunity is not being done as a conservation concern for moose.


MOE no longer advocates for hunters like they should. They also prefer people management over real wildlife management.



Hunting is a legitimate and historical use in Spatsizi, and all the Northern Parks, and it was hunters who lead the fight to protect the area from industrial development. Why then are we treated like a second-class?



As a lifelong,, leaflickin', treehuggin', tofu-lovin' and bush workin' and huntin' BC boy, I gotta say that this is a hell of a fine post. I don't trust the MOE, the BCFS, Parks who have some of the most arrogant and lazy azzholes "working" for them or any other aspect of government.

The "environmental movement" that people like me started back in the '60s is LONG dead and those spouting the credo now are cheap opportunists trying to become famous enough to obtain political office and the salary/perks that go with it....I despise all of them and know many of them personally. I especially loath David Suzuki although I accept his brilliance as a geneticist.

What to do? PROTEST AND BLOCKADE BACK!!! Fuggem, pick a controversial place and LOCK IT UP!

[BlacktailStalker]

tell that to the goverment or the general public see if they wiil agree with you good luck!.... keep on dreaming.

Oh I know.
Laws should have no variables.
I get a kick out of the "exceptions" and the clowns that make them.

Why not block these people from coming OUT.
Most blasters I know are hunters, I'm sure they wouldnt mind helping our cause :lol:
Or better yet, block the pricks in that wont rectify the situation and ENFORCE the laws.
Once again, maybe the problem isnt the natives.
Look at it this way, all sorts of laws are broken. Our legal system is supposed to be in place to ensure those people are dealt with and to at least make it difficult for that person(s) to continue to hinder the rest of us.
So its a given these laws are going to be broken, no individual owes the rest of us anything or has made no promise not to act a certain way but the problem is they are getting away with what they are doing, so obviously they wont stop.
In reality its our own system failing us and if the people involved in the system wont deal with it, we need people that will.

They're allowing one party to hold the dynamite and the other to wave a flame from the other side. The fuse is only so long and its just a matter of time til the problem explodes and what was preventable at one time becomes too late and results in a tragedy.

[mark]

BTS... speaking of explosions.... I have an idea..... I seems us petty, last in line resident hunters are always getting the shaft!
The guides and natives want to use the road for easy access to hunting, but keep us out????
Anyone got some dynamite????
Sneak into a narrow or steep place of access and blow the road sky high!
Hike in only area???? Access only to those who will WORK for it...this will weed out the indians real fast!!!
Can you tell I have given up on doing things the legal way! It costs too much money, takes too long, just to find out you lose anyway!

Kaboom, issue resolved, they would go home and wish they hadn't started $h!t.

[BromBones]

A 'ram's eye' view of the Klappan, for those of you who have never been -


http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad344/ursusarctos/Huntin%20stuff/spats1.jpg

Hopefully we don't run into the same issues this fall:?

[hunter1947]

Native people that are doing this I for one don't like it but it has happened and that they the government should do something to solve this problem ..
The Native people I would say they would probably have rights to this land and there is always a way around it by talks..

[VI Blackdog]

Hunting is a legitimate and historical use in Spatsizi, and all the Northern Parks, and it was hunters who lead the fight to protect the area from industrial development. Why then are we treated like a second-class?


It is the Tahltan that are keeping Shell out of the Klappan not the hunters and not the government. Shell wants to drill for coal-bed methane.

[safarichris]

Native people that are doing this I for one don't like it but it has happened and that they the government should do something to solve this problem ..
The Native people I would say they would probably have rights to this land and there is always a way around it by talks..

I would assume then, our Government did not do it’s homework and is totally out of touch with FN, Traditional Lands used by the Toltan Bands in the creation of the Provincial Park. While it is true that Toltan ‘’Trails’’ obliterate the Provincial Park from the Klappan to Caribou Hide and beyond, should studies not have been made in advance before it’s creation. What exactly then, is the roll of the Parks Board and are other Provincial Parks now in jeopardy?

[hunter1947]

My trapper friend told me of a story from last year that happened in this area.

He said his good friend that he hunts with that lives in Williams lake that he and his son went into this area and was forced to leave the area his son was an RCMP officer ,they just left the area and went somewhere else ,they did not push the issue ....

[Mik]

It is the Tahltan that are keeping Shell out of the Klappan not the hunters and not the government. Shell wants to drill for coal-bed methane.

That was the issue a few years ago, and it was shell that put in millions of $$ and repaired the road after the wash-outs! Last year was purely motivated by the Tahltan Indians-so called "Klabonna Keepers" to keep out ALL HUNTERS due to supossedly overharvesting of "Their Moose"

To answer the original question, they should have all been arrested for an illegal blockade! No excuses, its a public road.

[Devilbear]

This topic goes around and around and around here and seems to never come to a conclusion as to what should be done.

I favour the immediate use of the Canadian Armed Forces to protect we law-abiding and taxpaying citizens.

I will be writing many letters to both levels of government asking that these blockades be banned and Indians kept from harassing and impeding lawful hunters.

Meet force with greater force, seems reasonable to me.

[KodiakHntr]

So you are going to ask that the illegal blockades be made extra-special illegal then?

Enforce laws that are already on the books, don't make more laws.

[Devilbear]

Dave, we agree totally there, too many damm laws already and too many damm lawyers milking the system.

I want to stress here that my belief is that ANY group who forcefully blockades any legal access to Crown Land, regardless of "race" or "ethnicity" and this INCLUDES people like me, Indians, cowboys and even Gatehouse, should be dealt with severely and equally.

This whole blockade bullshit has gone on far too long and some azzes, not all Indians, need to be kicked before we see some innocent person(s) killed.

[KodiakHntr]

Can't disagree with you there at all.

Laws need to be enforced, or there is simply no reason to comply with them.

[safarichris]

If ''Canada'' looses even one Provincial Park to the elements. I will be the first to stand in that line and say that the Parks Board and MOE are nothing more than a sham. Pathetic and most irresponsible in it's representation in the creating and preserving of key parcels of Lands set aside for the ''General Public.''

[riflebuilder]

As a lifelong,, leaflickin', treehuggin', tofu-lovin' and bush workin' and huntin' BC boy, I gotta say that this is a hell of a fine post. I don't trust the MOE, the BCFS, Parks who have some of the most arrogant and lazy azzholes "working" for them or any other aspect of government.

The "environmental movement" that people like me started back in the '60s is LONG dead and those spouting the credo now are cheap opportunists trying to become famous enough to obtain political office and the salary/perks that go with it....I despise all of them and know many of them personally. I especially loath David Suzuki although I accept his brilliance as a geneticist.

What to do? PROTEST AND BLOCKADE BACK!!! Fuggem, pick a controversial place and LOCK IT UP!

Amhen brother!!!!!

[Caribou_lou]

It is the Tahltan that are keeping Shell out of the Klappan not the hunters and not the government. Shell wants to drill for coal-bed methane.


Not the Tahltans that want to work! I was in on the rail grade hunting spring grizz the year the road was fixed and all the workers were Tahltan.
I think you need to look past the road block and at the outfitters who have stayed very silent through these road block episodes.
I am not in favour of the road blocks. I am not in favour of any changes made regulating resident hunters in this area and I am most deffinatly not in favour of coal-bed methane.