Is it legal to hire a wrangler?

[Gateholio]

Just wondering form the "packers" thread.

Would it be legal for a group of hunters that owned their own horses to hire a wrangler to look after their horses for them while on a hunting trip?

[budismyhorse]

Just wondering form the "packers" thread.

Would it be legal for a group of hunters that owned their own horses to hire a wrangler to look after their horses for them while on a hunting trip?

Not sure but I figure that is "packin."

He would be hired to handle your nags and pack your string.....for the purposes of hunting.

Sightseeing may be a different story.

[One Shot]

I do not think that there is nothing illegal about it. It would be the same as bringning your hired hand from your ranch along or hiring a camp cook. They cannot act as a guide. Why not hire a wrangler/cook.

[sawmill]

Egg-Zacckly .He isn`t guiding,he`s feeding you and the horses.Might need Food Safe though:mrgreen:

[landphil]

I do not think that there is nothing illegal about it. It would be the same as bringning your hired hand from your ranch along or hiring a camp cook. They cannot act as a guide. Why not hire a wrangler/cook.

Why would Gatehouse hire a cook?:confused: Interesting question that will get lots of arguement from both sides if you ask me. But how could they be a "packer" if they don't supply the horses?

[835]

That sounds like outfitting?
is there special rules/tickets to do with that?
if he has the gear etc he would be outfitting your hunt

[budismyhorse]

I'm interested to hear an official ruling about this....its a good Q.

I think you need to be licenced to be a packer for the purposes of hunting....but I could be wrong.

[Gilmore]

Why would Gatehouse hire a cook?:confused:


Because he's really not much of a cook himself, chef yes, cook no!:)



That sounds like outfitting?
is there special rules/tickets to do with that?
if he has the gear etc he would be outfitting your hunt

I think he means if you owned all the gear and hired a guy to cook, look after the ponys and be general camp bitch. Can't see a problem with it myself, he wouldn't be outfitting you with anything or guiding you. He's an employee.

[BiG Boar]

What is the definition of a packer? What is the definition of a guide?

[Sitkaspruce]

As long as there was no $$ exchanged for the purposes of that person showing you exactly where an animal is, they can do all the wrangling/cooking they want. There has to be a transaction of some sort, usually money. The fine line is when you say you wil build a deck for them (like Mr Clarke did:wink:) if they take you out in the bush and have them show you the mountain to climb to shoot a 40" ram. To some that might be interpeted as guiding.

Personally, I think that as long as they are not doing the actual "Guiding", they can do what ever they want.

Here is what the WA says.

Compulsory guide outfitter licence

48 (1) A person commits an offence if the person acts as a guide for game, or offers to act as a guide for game, unless the person
(a) holds a guide outfitter licence,
(b) holds an assistant guide licence,
(c) holds another licence to guide for game, or
(d) accompanies or assists a person to hunt game birds or small game on land other than Crown land.
(2) A person who holds a guide outfitter licence commits an offence if the person employs another person to guide for game and that other person does not hold an assistant guide licence.
(3) A guide outfitter must be present in his or her guiding area during a majority of the time when his or her assistant guides are guiding for game.

Here is the def. of guide as per the WA

"guide" means a person who, for compensation or reward received or promised, accompanies and assists another person to hunt wildlife, but does not include a guide for fish;

There is not a Def for packer in the WA.

Cheers

SS

[835]

I think he means if you owned all the gear and hired a guy to cook, look after the ponys and be general camp bitch. Can't see a problem with it myself, he wouldn't be outfitting you with anything or guiding you. He's an employee.[/quote]

I dont see anything wrong with it either. But the government i think loots at a service as if it was a horse. You are paying him to help you on a hunting trip. There at a minimum would be a need for a business license.

Im just trying to think like the government. But i think a few posts prier to this is the awnser, i started typing befor i read al the way down

[Rod]

why not find someone willing to wrangle your horses and help you pack in exchange for the opportunity to accompany you on the hunt? problem solved.. and if you paid his expenses to get to the trail head well that is not considered payment..

PS: Anyone looking for a cook or wrangler for a elk/sheep/goat hunt? :-)

[boxhitch]

Would it be legal for a group of hunters that owned their own horses to hire a wrangler to look after their horses for them while on a hunting trip?
Hired labour, nothing wrong with that. Method of payment would follow tax rules, of course. :wink:
Very different from packing or guiding.

[Barracuda]

i know with hounds if i take a friend i cant receive any compensation and even going half and half on fuel can be questionable depending on CO . not sure how they feel about horses but for dogs they are pretty sticky and some even dislike the use of them.

[One Shot]

Would it be legal for a group of hunters that owned their own horses to hire a wrangler to look after their horses for them while on a hunting trip?

It seems that a few have you have not read the original thread correctly.

Gatehouse is asking if he can hire a nanny for his own horses while he is out hunting.

He is not asking if he can hire a wrangler with horses.:mrgreen:

[boxhitch]

i know with hounds if i take a friend i cant receive any compensation and even going half and half on fuel can be questionable depending on CO . not sure how they feel about horses but for dogs they are pretty sticky and some even dislike the use of them.
Don't think the CO's are picking on dogs. More likely someone complained about the possible exchange of $$$s

[Dirty]

If the Cook/Wrangler has big "guns", a nice ass, and likes carrying heavy loads, she might be a packer. Well at least that's what I would do with her in my camp.:mrgreen:

[Barracuda]

Don't think the CO's are picking on dogs. More likely someone complained about the possible exchange of $$$s

they do profile houndhunters as there are some rather questionable hound hunters but the main difference is that houndsmen are few and easy to spot .

If a houndhunter wants to take a new hunter out to try the hounds he pretty much has to say no to splitting of fuel cost etc or any other perceived compensation .
The second you bring hounds into the mix you are subject to the third degree especially if your buddy does not have hounds ,etc .



as for the horse thing if i recall isnt the camp considered a dwelling as such? So a person babysitting the horses at the dwelling shouldnt be an issue.

[digger dogger]

there are quesionable hunters in general, not just hound hunters. but it's tough to hide a dog box in jan or feb on a fsr( not to many preditor hunters @ this time of yr & c.o's get bored too i'll bet). i won't go hunting with someone who isn't a long time friend.
receiving a cigarette, 1\2 a sandwich, gas, ect can be looked at as compensation. if he don't have hounds or been a longtime friend, he ain't shootin sh*t, with my dogs there.i've always been treated with respect by c.o's, but iv'e heard of a few nightmares!
sorry gatehouse not sure if it's legal to hire a horse sitter. :-)
i've been told renting hounds is legal but i don't know that for sure "legally"

[budismyhorse]

It seems that a few have you have not read the original thread correctly.

Gatehouse is asking if he can hire a nanny for his own horses while he is out hunting.

He is not asking if he can hire a wrangler with horses.:mrgreen:

I think everyone understands the question just fine....

I don't think it matters who owns the horses.....they are essentially like your gear...

If you HIRE someone to aid you for the purposes of hunting , that person may need a specific licence for that.....possibly.

Packers have specific areas they work in, and specific rules. We should be asking an actual licence holding packer to answer this question.

[Barracuda]

ask the co for the area if it is ok for a horse sitter .

If he is hired labour tell him he must wear a silk Jockey unifom for the duration of thier emplyment just so no one could confuse them for a hunter or guide. This would be especially fun if they were not a small person. have some fun with this.:twisted:

[6616]

Below: From the Wildlife Act commercial Activities Regulation. I don't think hiring a wrangler to look after your privately owned camp, horses, ot to cook, etc, would contravene the law. If the "wrangler" owned the horses and was charging a fee that would be an entirely different matter.



Division 5 — Transporters
Definitions

5.01 In this Division:
"licence activity report" means the form prescribed in Appendix 2;
"transporter" means a person who, for money or other compensation, transports a hunter to, from or between locations so that the hunter can hunt but does not include a person who operates a scheduled commercial flight or a chartered aircraft unless the person also provides ground transportation, accommodation or other ground services to the hunter.
[en. B.C. Reg. 25/2005, s. 5.]

Transporter licence

5.02 (1) A person must not act as a transporter unless the person holds a transporter licence issued under section 15 of the Wildlife Act.
(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) commits an offence.
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a person who is licensed as a guide outfitter.
[en. B.C. Reg. 25/2005, s. 5.]

Eligibility for transporter licence

5.03 (1) A person is eligible for a transporter licence only if
(a) the person
(i) is a citizen or permanent resident of Canada,
(ii) carries public liability insurance in an amount of not less than $2 million that is
(A) applicable to the person's transporting business,
(B) in effect at the time of the application for a transporter licence, and
(C) effective for the term of the transporter licence,
(iii) satisfies the director that the person has a good working knowledge of the Wildlife Act and regulations by achieving a passing grade on an examination set by the director for that purpose, and
(iv) submits to the director a transporter licence application and management plan, in the form and with the information required by the instructions set out in Appendix 1, along with the application fee under Schedule 5.05 (2), and
(b) based on the applicant's application and management plan, the director is satisfied that the person's transporter activities are unlikely to have a significant negative impact on wildlife.
(2) An applicant for a transporter licence must submit the application fee, and the transporter licence application and management plan, required under subsection (1) (a) (iv) at least 3 months before the date the licence is required.
(3) The director need not make a decision on an application submitted under this section for 3 months after the date on which the director is in receipt of the application fee, application and management plan.
[en. B.C. Reg. 25/2005, s. 5.]

Transporter licence conditions

5.04 (1) The following are terms and conditions of every transporter licence:
(a) a holder of a transporter licence must not block or damage a road, trail, airstrip or watercourse or other real or personal property while providing transporter services under a transporter licence;
(b) a holder of a transporter licence must file with the regional manager indicated on the transporter licence, by December 31 of each year, a completed licence activity report setting out the information required by that report form in relation to the holder's transporting activities for the year;
(c) a holder of a transporter licence must maintain the public liability insurance required under section 5.03 for the term of the licence.
(2) The director may make anything set out in the transporter licence application or management plan submitted under section 5.03 a term or condition of the licence issued on the basis of that application and management plan.
[en. B.C. Reg. 25/2005, s. 5.]

Transporter licence fees

5.05 (1) The fee and surcharge payable for a transporter licence are those set out in Schedule 5.05 (1).
(2) A transporter licence fee and surcharge must be paid on or before April 1.
(3) If an applicant for a transporter licence fails to pay the fee and surcharge in the time specified under subsection (2), the holder must pay the late payment fee set out in Schedule 5.05 (3) with the amount required under subsection (2).
(4) A duplicate copy of a transporter licence may be issued if the licence holder
(a) signs a declaration affirming that the licence has been lost, stolen or destroyed, and
(b) pays the fees under Schedule 5.05 (4) and (5) for a duplicate transporter licence and declaration.

[BCrams]

Irregardless whether you can hire a wrangler or not, the whole packer issue needs to be revisited and revamped. The GOABC knew what they were doing when they pushed for the current changes that are in place.

[budismyhorse]

"transporter" means a person who, for money or other compensation, transports a hunter to, from or between locations so that the hunter can hunt but does not include a person who operates a scheduled commercial flight or a chartered aircraft unless the person also provides ground transportation, accommodation or other ground services to the hunter.
[en. B.C. Reg. 25/2005, s. 5.]

I think you'd have to get into the legalities of what constitues "other ground services" to a huner....

[ryanb]

"transporter" means a person who, for money or other compensation, transports a hunter to, from or between locations so that the hunter can hunt but does not include a person who operates a scheduled commercial flight or a chartered aircraft unless the person also provides ground transportation, accommodation or other ground services to the hunter.
[en. B.C. Reg. 25/2005, s. 5.]

I think you'd have to get into the legalities of what constitues "other ground services" to a huner....

Incorrect, that statement only applies to persons operating a scheduled commercial flight or charter aircraft. Read again.

[One Shot]

Wrangler in this case is not the transporter as a transporter provides the transportation ie: the horses, where as in Gates case he is the transporter as he is supplying his own horses. The wrangler will only feed, care for and saddle up and collect the critters in the morning for wages. This is no different than a GO having a cook or wrangler working in camp with out guide licences. Maybe I am wrong and things have changed.

Bridger, where are you? I know that you have the answer to this.

[budismyhorse]

Incorrect, that statement only applies to persons operating a scheduled commercial flight or charter aircraft. Read again.

thats right sorry .....I really shouldn't post at work.....:-D

[bridger]

if you own the horses and gear and the wrangler does guide or lead you to your hunting spot there is nothing wrong por illegal about it

[willy442]

Wrangler in this case is not the transporter as a transporter provides the transportation ie: the horses, where as in Gates case he is the transporter as he is supplying his own horses. The wrangler will only feed, care for and saddle up and collect the critters in the morning for wages. This is no different than a GO having a cook or wrangler working in camp with out guide licences. Maybe I am wrong and things have changed.

Bridger, where are you? I know that you have the answer to this.

I have taken friends out many times with horses in the past. Yes I've been the person with the knowledge of the area on every occassion. The criteria that kept me from being viewed as a packer was the fact that no renumeration was made for my gear or knowledge. Had I charged a fee or been hired to take care of the people with me. I believe things would have been viewed differently.

[boxhitch]

Irregardless whether you can hire a wrangler or not, the whole packer issue needs to be revisited and revamped. The GOABC knew what they were doing when they pushed for the current changes that are in place.I think some transporters of the day had something to say about the policy also.

[hunter1947]

Clarke why hire a wrangler to look after your horses when you could probably find a buddy that would go along on this hunt to look after them while you where out hunting...

[Rod]

Wrangling horses in the bush is not really all that difficult, if they are your horses then you must know enough to care for them at home and it won't be a big jump.

Join your local chapter of Backcountry Horsemen of BC and attend their clinics and a couple of overnight rides you will learn a lot and your horses will get some of the training they require as well.

As stated above you can probably find a buddy to tag along who would be willing to do most of the wrangling regardless of his intentin to hunt or not. I would go on a hunt like that. My desire to shoot something might be diminishing but the trip and the hunt is still as strong as ever.

If you are interested in learning how to manage your horses in the bush drop me a PM and I will answer with whatever knowledge I can.

[Gateholio]

My question isn't about bringing a buddy or managing horses. It's about the legality of hiring someone to look after your horses while you are off doing better things like hunting.:wink:

It's often easier to manage a "employer/employee" relationship than a "doing a buddy a favour" relationship.:mrgreen:

[bridger]

what r u paying?

[Gateholio]

I'd have to actually own horses.:-D

I'ts a question that was derived form the packing thread. No plans yet, but Bridger, you are first on the list.:wink: