Poached or other????

[doubled]

Went hard water fishing yesterday with friends - gave me a good excuse to get the newly acquired sled out again. At 3km up Lost Mtn Rd, we stumbled on this. I counted ten rib cages so must have been a minimum of 5 moose. The two heads looked like calf heads. Pretty sure there has been no recent leh there so not sure what to think. Local natives perhaps??? And we wonder why we are not seeing the moose that we used too. Should I contact the COs???

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262/doubled66/IMG_2104.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262/doubled66/IMG_2105.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262/doubled66/IMG_2106.jpg

[FLHTCUI]

Yes, contact the CO's and or send them the pictures with the directions to the location.
Doing nothing will not make the moose population any safer.
Just my .02 .
Rob

[doubled]

I kinda figured that too. Will do.

[Fisher-Dude]

I would call it in to RAPP just so it gets a file. Probably some local "stewards of the land" exercising "their rights" by slaughtering cow and calf moose.

Meanwhile, those who actually pay for studying and managing the region 8 moose are facing a 75% reduction in their moose hunting season for 2010. :-|

[d6dan]

Yes, I would call it in. Hopefully the CO's can make something of it.

[M.Dean]

Could be a dump site of some local back yard butcher doing LEH moose, who knows. Phone the CO's and we can all find out the truth before we lay blame on every race out there!

[CanadanHirvi]

Could be a dump site of some local back yard butcher doing LEH moose, who knows. Phone the CO's and we can all find out the truth before we lay blame on every race out there!

True. If it's been cold enough, these could have been preserved for a couple of months.
I was also looking that they've been picked pretty clean. If they were poached, at least they took all the meat.

[doubled]

This was a fresh dump as I was there two weeks ago and there was nothing at that time. Also, the birds and animals were just getting going on it so I would think it happened in the last 24 hours.

[Big7]

True. If it's been cold enough, these could have been preserved for a couple of months.
I was also looking that they've been picked pretty clean. If they were poached, at least they took all the meat.
I've seen a whole cow (beef) look cleaner than that after a week with a healthy population of coyotes and ravens.

[CanadanHirvi]

Then I'll go with poached. Report it.

[boxhitch]

Wolves !! We need a season

[THE SWEDE]

Poachers are very good at covering their tracks. The real professionals will take only the meat and leave the bone carcass to look like it was a natural death. over night, Coyotes help in making it look even more natural.
I have seen Beef butchered in the open range and every morsel of meat gone except the entire bone structure left intact. They gave themselves away with the small .22 bullet found in the Beefs forehead. From the photos submitted, this is definitely a case where a kill has been made by humans.


They're not human:wink:

[CanadanHirvi]

I agree. I mean these rib cages are split in half. No doubt it was humans, probably with nice meat saws, like butchers have. Maybe it was a butcher poacher.

[Bow Walker]

:wink: Aw, come on guys....what about say, fifty wolves teaming up with say thirty coyotes and maybe 25 ravens - all coordinating their attack under one leader (obviously one of the wolves) to bring down that small herd of moose all at once?

Sudden attack, well planned in advance, and presto! No survivors - just dinner for all. :mrgreen:

[CanadanHirvi]

:wink: Aw, come on guys....what about say, fifty wolves teaming up with say thirty coyotes and maybe 25 ravens - all coordinating their attack under one leader (obviously one of the wolves) to bring down that small herd of moose all at once?

Sudden attack, well planned in advance, and presto! No survivors - just dinner for all. :mrgreen:

Good point, but I think the mastermind behind this was the butcher poacher.

[peashooter]

i say call it in. my guess is dump site or something along those lines. not likely to shoot 5 moose all on the road within meters of each other, i would think some running away might occur. seems unlike a poacher to take the time to take the meat from 5 moose. maybe it is poaching, just my 2 cents.

[hunter1947]

If It was natives they are allowed to take a certain number of moose for there tribe in a calender year.

[doubled]

I have no problem if it is natives. They have their "rights" whether we agree or disagree. Just throw the carcasses away where they will not be seen easily if it is.

[budismyhorse]

looks like Heavens Gate mass suicide to me.........check for trace amounts of kool-aid nearby.

[Jelvis]

If you look real close in that one photo you can see what looks like the edge of a space ship where it landed and you can see in the bushes there where it looks like some alien had a real fight going on with that small immature moose.
Also if you look real hard and use your investigative imagination it looks like a frying pan of some sort was aginst the tree there, so.
Summary: The mooses were not poached they were fried.
Jelly with the CSI North Division -- Fried not poached.

[Jelvis]

Dry cow? Now how would tell it's a dry cow? Let's hear it Mr. man. Explain in detail without blowing it,lol.

[elkdom]

Good one Jelvis. The sad part is that the cows were probably pregnant. You can almost double the numbers. Sad, as that is not Conservation in anyone's books. If this is the case, why not look for a dry cow.

HEY! a guy has to make "PEMMICAN" sometime,,,:confused:

what better time when TV shows are boring and the wife is at Bingo??

not likely it was a thrill kill,,,

[Jelvis]

I'm waiting sasa fratz dry cow and knowing it is, is the subject you brought up..so how do you know by looking at a cow moose in hunting season whether it's dry or not?

[elkdom]

I'm waiting sasa fratz dry cow and knowing it is, is the subject you brought up..so how do you know by looking at a cow moose in hunting season whether it's dry or not?


NIPPLES! jelvis, NIPPLES,

you gotta look at the NIPPLES!:lol:

[CanuckShooter]

I'm waiting sasa fratz dry cow and knowing it is, is the subject you brought up..so how do you know by looking at a cow moose in hunting season whether it's dry or not?

Don't be silly, open them up and they're all wet !!! Dry cow has no babeeee, wet cow has babeeee. Same thing for doe deer, cattle, horses....

[Jelvis]

What if babeee is'nt with mommy then how do you know?

[Jelvis]

Every cow can be pregnant so what your saying is don't shoot cows then?

[elkdom]

Every cow can be pregnant so what your saying is don't shoot cows then?


BINGO !

did I say Bingo again??? geezzz:?

[elkdom]

killing/hunting MATURE antler less big game AFTER the RUT, is a sure way to decimate herd numbers,,, IMMATURE after the RUT not so decimating to herd numbers,,,

but many people dont give a $hit!,,,

[Jelvis]

Under the B or udder to be? lol--Bingo ! Dry cow means it did'nt get bred the first season it could have and therefore is dry of milk. Wet means milk in the udder to feed said calf. Therefore dry cow is in better shape because it did'nt have a calf to worry about and feed and protect. So it's fatter and in better overall conditon for the table.
If you only shot bulls the cows would'nt get bred at all, not enuff bulls to breed them and that is'nt sustainable management.
Jel -- wanna be bio listens to Dio.

[browningboy]

Under the B or udder to be? lol--Bingo ! Dry cow means it did'nt get bred the first season it could have and therefore is dry of milk. Wet means milk in the udder to feed said calf. Therefore dry cow is in better shape because it did'nt have a calf to worry about and feed and protect. So it's fatter and in better overall conditon for the table.
If you only shot bulls the cows would'nt get bred at all, not enuff bulls to breed them and that is'nt sustainable management.
Jel -- wanna be bio listens to Dio.

Stir the pot Jelly...keep stirring! You know you're just.....well I'll just leave it alone.:mrgreen:

[Jelvis]

Bb are you creeping on me? lol----

[CanuckShooter]

What if babeee is'nt with mommy then how do you know?

Babeee is always with mommy.....never too far from the teat.....be patient...watchem....no babeee = dry cow. Same thing with spring bear...no shooting mommy bear with cubs in tow...gotta watchem.

[CanuckShooter]

Every cow can be pregnant so what your saying is don't shoot cows then?

I don't think they breed while they are nursing a calf???

[Jelvis]

...Well if a person gets an LEH moose, cow or calf, or mature bull that would dictate what your after and that's why we have leh.
Jel -- got to get an leh anyways before you go out, unless it's gos or gos spike/fork bull moose. There is no gos for cow or calves anyways as far as I know, so try for an authorized valid leh draw and if you are lucky enough to get it, then decide.

[huntcoop]

Put the fire water away Jelvis and go to bed.

[Jelvis]

fire water? What is that? Please explain. Never heard of firewater?

[CanadanHirvi]

Firewater is an Indian term for hard liquor. :twisted:

[proguide66]

quick note , wolves havent been near that pile yet....as well , when wolves smoke a moose , they seem to eat the head first...so do grizzlies...must taste yummy....as well , there wont be much left except fur and maybe a couple feet when they have left :wink:

[huntcoop]

http://www.authentichistory.com/diversity/native/alcohol/Firewater_Flaming_Red_Soft_Drink.jpg

[Big Lew]

There could very well be a reasonable or legal explanation to what you have found, but on the other hand, if it is the work of poachers, it might be only part of their greedy work. Quite often poachers not caught will continue until there are few animals left in an area, usually wiping out the young and breading stock. My wife, kids, and I stumbled onto a group of deer poachers during the summer at the head of lost creek several years ago. We reported them and they were caught, but only after they had killed most of the fawns and does in that large valley. So, please report your findings to the game department or police, so they can investigate, just in case.

[Fisher-Dude]

Every cow can be pregnant so what your saying is don't shoot cows then?

Get an LEH and you can shoot a cow under strictly controlled harvest conditions. Otherwise, there's the distinct possibility that you will create a conservation concern by pounding every cow moose you see, which the Indians in this area do regularly, just to "prove some f'd up point" to the rest of us. :mad:

[Jelvis]

What band you talking about there dude, name the baby if you got the guts I have'nt shot a moose since 2000 so you better have proof of that statement, what area do you live in?

[Fisher-Dude]

Westbank. They pound the shit out of the moose around here.

[Gr8 white hunter]

Don,t blame the poor poor natives they are keepers of mother earth and all her little creatures they would'nt do such a thing.Bad whitie

[Jelvis]

...How many do they take a year?

[Fisher-Dude]

...How many do they take a year?

They are ashamed to tell us. Anecdotal evidence obtained by the MoE is that they take a large number of moose, and prefer to kill cows and calves. Maybe the Indians should put some money towards game management around here - fund an inventory or something - they are, after all, one of the richest bands in Canada. Why do they take, take, take and give nothing in return?

[doubled]

Good question FD. Waiting for the answer myself.

[Jelvis]

Ashamed? Why would they be ashamed? Probably just don't know themselves. you think the Chief walks around house to house asking, did you get a moose? lol. Or sends out questionares and who said all natives hunt, most don't they eat burgers like you and I from the stores.
Anecdotal what? Explain there dude lol. Large number means what?
Pretty general talk no specifics. Take take take and give nothing in return, sounds like my x wives.
If there that rich then there not hunting much for food there doing something else, lol. If you were rich would you be out hunting in Westbank? lol. I don't think so.
Jel I hope you clarify your ah general statements please about Westbank members with real data not hearsay.
Talk to me now! I'm dragging you in....be careful..lol..

[doubled]

Jelly bean, If I was rich, I would hunt and fish every freaking day. Why wouldn't you????

[Jelvis]

Double trouble, If you had won the lotto and had 4 million dollar$ cash in the west bank, lol. or the east bank what ever bank lol.
You tell me you'd be hunting for a cow moose around Westbank?
Jel -- talk at me quick.

[doubled]

Elvis with the J, if it was open or I had an leh, YES I would still hunt here!!!!! Love moose and any other game for that matter. Also, I hunt because I LOVE the experience. No amount of money would change that!!!! More money would just mean more places and time to hunt.

[Jelvis]

Very good response doubled, you hit it right on with the, " I love the experience, no amount of money would change that." I dig that.
Now wheres the doood gone? lol. He has'nt finished what he started, lol.
..Number 54 post dude remember lol. Answer accordingly.
...I'm taking you out into deeeep wooods!
and your having a change of heart now?
Jel -- let's hear it.

[log_roller]

What band you talking about there dude, name the baby if you got the guts I have'nt shot a moose since 2000 so you better have proof of that statement, what area do you live in?


Jelvis ha ha you crack me up __I will do my best to communicate with you----explain here it is====YOU haven't shot a moose since 2000 ,,,Cant kill what you don't shoot ?cant say bang !-then down goes Mr moose!----- or can it ? trigger has to be pulled for moose to drop freezer full problem solved make ------sense? same as driving a car vroom vroom ----sounds don't make the car drive it helps when you turn the key make sense ??No guts no glory :confused:,which which is which which

[frenchbar]

...I'm taking you out into deeeep wooods!

good luck on getting his ass off his quad :mrgreen: jellydreamer.:wink:

[Fisher-Dude]

Jelvis, you sure disregard the 75% of yourself that is white.

Jelvis, why don't the Indians put any money into game management, but shoot as much game as they can? Don't they care about the animals? Shouldn't one of the wealthiest bands in Canada provide some funding for the animals?

[doubled]

Log roller or rolled on logs, whatever. Good response, didn't know you spoke the same tongue as the ol jelly bean.

[CanadanHirvi]

Jelvis ha ha you crack me up __I will do my best to communicate with you----explain here it is====YOU haven't shot a moose since 2000 ,,,Cant kill what you don't shoot ?cant say bang !-then down goes Mr moose!----- or can it ? trigger has to be pulled for moose to drop freezer full problem solved make ------sense? same as driving a car vroom vroom ----sounds don't make the car drive it helps when you turn the key make sense ??No guts no glory :confused:,which which is which which

Haha! This is funny. you are right on the same page with Ol'Jel

[Jelvis]

dooood, post 54, look it over again, and please answer those questions if you are able, otherwise just say your uncomfortable with explaining and clarifying because it's based on emotion and not fact, can you at least react? Don't ask questions about them giving money for wildlife to deflect.
The information you gave is general and generic with no facts or stats, so anyone can talk off the top of their hat. We need specifics and clarification on each line from post 54 or it's just another he said, she said. Means nothing. Here's your chance to explain your self.
So please finish what you started or don't say stuff like that unless you can be 100 percent believable about the Westbank band shooting everything they can, like you claim in post number 61.
jel -- We are waiting to see if your comfortable about explaining what your saying and can back it with hard core evidence.
or admit it's just all speculation, Instant Karma will happen so tell the truth.
Talk now!

[log_roller]

Haha! This is funny. you are right on the same page with Ol'Jel


Ya I figured out how to speak Jelvis its not fire water its Fireball it ALL makes sense now

[Triggerman]

IBTL

---------------------

[Fisher-Dude]

Jelvis, why don't the Indians put any money into game management, but shoot as much game as they can? Don't they care about the animals? Shouldn't one of the wealthiest bands in Canada provide some funding for the animals?

[Jelvis]

He won't finish it and probably should'nt lol. Just his personal thoughts nothing factual to back it up. Emotions and pride. Let it slide. The dude abides. Crying wolf about the Westbank.
Jel --

[Fisher-Dude]

The MoE has already told us it is a very significant portion of overall moose harvest when we meet with them to discuss regulations that the second class citizens of Canada have to follow. The residents and the GOs fight over the crumbs that are left.

Jelvis, why don't the Indians put any money into game management, but shoot as much game as they can? Don't they care about the animals? Shouldn't one of the wealthiest bands in Canada provide some funding for the animals?

[Jelvis]

Why don't you ask the Chief of the Westbank I could show them what you said here, but when they read it, they might decline. That is if you have'nt edited it already. lol. Maybe it would be a good idea for you do to that.lol.
jP how would the moe know how many moose the Westbank band shoots?

[little moose]

last year on bartley came across two moose skined and quartered and dumped on the side of the road witch we reported. that time all the meat was left to rot and antlers cut off the head. looked like the poachers got scared and dumped the meat doubt indians would be as quick to do that

[Fisher-Dude]

Jelvis, why don't the Indians put any money into game management, but shoot as much game as they can? Don't they care about the animals? Shouldn't one of the wealthiest bands in Canada provide some funding for the animals?

[BlacktailStalker]

Jelvis, why don't the Indians put any money into game management, but shoot as much game as they can? Don't they care about the animals? Shouldn't one of the wealthiest bands in Canada provide some funding for the animals?

THAT is what I have always wondered.
Free to reap the benefits but zero contribution.

[Jelvis]

Hey dude ah, have you hit a flat spot? You want to get into this with me, seriously? Your being too general about Indians as a whole. Talk to the Westbank band manager if you want to keep repeating this over and over.
Why are you doing this? I thought you were more mature than that and had a position in the community dealing with the outdoors.
So why don't you answer the questions then on the posts I suggested instead of repeating the post above?
Do you live near Westbank band?
jel- where do you get your information from about the Westbank band hunters? Deeper and deeper.

[Ambush]

So why don't you answer the questions then on the posts
HAHAHA!!! Jelvis, are you seriously challenging someone to give a straight answer?? The master of criptic caw-caw-phony.:mrgreen:

Jel/master of speaking the language of two-male-bovine.

Two-male-bovine:confused:: only the Je in jelvis knows what that is. You know it Jel, prove it to them before someone else guesses.:-?

[Jelvis]

I lost it for an hour, I grew up with flower power, I got caught up in the myth, then I had a fifth, now I don't give a ship. I felt like a robot that had no grease now I rust in peace.
jelly...rust in peace ...

[Ambush]

I'm really, really dissapointed Jel.

Caw/mon, solve the riddle. Delila dug till Samson got shaved. Your losing your strength SamtheMan. Dude will be leading you blindfolded, Hog-Tied and drug in the 'Net. JelGonefromTheNet/Intra-web.

[bad arrow]

I'm disapointed in jelly too, he should of said that there were in 08-09 leh that there were at least 60 antlerless elk draws in region 8 that were issued for Nov-Feb, and I'm pretty sure the cows would have been impregnated. I wonder where those gut piles are.

[martyonthewater]

well this has been an interesting read :o I would like to think it was some butchers dump area( ill chosen as it may be) , but with the heads there I kinda doubt it. don't have the regs in front of me but I'm pretty sure skull inspection would be as mandatory for cow/calf harvest as it is for bull.

[tootoowild]

yeah Jel is right. Dont be puttin us all in the same boat here. I was goin for a buck this year and I could have shot all the ones I seen but I was playin by YOUR rules. and ya'll gotta quit assuming its natives right away. And Westbank whatever or where ever tha hell that is, isnt my tribe or band. I hate when you All put us in the same boat!!!!

[Ramshot]

Jelvis, why don't the Indians put any money into game management, but shoot as much game as they can? Don't they care about the animals? Shouldn't one of the wealthiest bands in Canada provide some funding for the animals?


The Kamloops Indian Band presented a cheque to the Wild Sheep society at last years Banquet in Kamloops for around $15'000 to cover both sheep transplants that happened out on Kamloops lake in 2008. Some of the sheep went to the Okanagan and some to the Fraser river.

[Fisher-Dude]

The Kamloops Indian Band presented a cheque to the Wild Sheep society at last years Banquet in Kamloops for around $15'000 to cover both sheep transplants that happened out on Kamloops lake in 2008. Some of the sheep went to the Okanagan and some to the Fraser river.

Awesome. I understood that the funds were raised from the auction of the KIB sheep hunt - is this correct?

[Ramshot]

Yes. Also some more prescribed burns planned and maybe another sheep transplant from the KIB reserve in the near future?

[doubled]

That is great to hear. We don't hear that nearly enough from any groups.

[boxhitch]

Jelvis, why don't the Indians put any money into game management, but shoot as much game as they can? Don't they care about the animals? Shouldn't one of the wealthiest bands in Canada provide some funding for the animals?Many of the band members that harvest game buy licenses and tags and comply with the provincial regulations. We could only ask that they all did, just as everyone else.
I think Most bands don't have money to spend , but maybe wrong.

[Black Bird]

Sorry to pull the thread away from an 'us vs. them' discussion - but looking at the picture is it possible it might have been an avalanche? The carcasses are piled up near the base of those trees and from the picture it looks like they were out in the open somewhat.

If it were me I will definitely report it but wouldn't it be a ton of work to shoot a number of moose and drag their carcasses to the same spot? Also, I don't know much about moose hunting, but if you shot one moose wouldn't the others scatter into the woods unless it was an ambush with a number of hunters?

Cheers,
BB

[CanuckShooter]

Sorry to pull the thread away from an 'us vs. them' discussion - but looking at the picture is it possible it might have been an avalanche? The carcasses are piled up near the base of those trees and from the picture it looks like they were out in the open somewhat.

If it were me I will definitely report it but wouldn't it be a ton of work to shoot a number of moose and drag their carcasses to the same spot? Also, I don't know much about moose hunting, but if you shot one moose wouldn't the others scatter into the woods unless it was an ambush with a number of hunters?

Cheers,
BB

The backbones have been cut...an avalanche wouldn't do that....it could be salvaged road/train kill with the butcher dumping the bones.

I have pictures from my front yard with eight moose all together....just like shooting turkeys in a barrel.

[knockturnal]

Is there a trap line around there??

[gibblewabble]

I found 4 cow carcasses on Coldstream ranch leased land this fall and when I talked to the ranch employee they said it has happened alot up there with cow and moose, it must be the economy.

[coach]

Lots of interesting discussion here. But getting back to the point of the thread - has this been called in yet? It seems highly likely that these animals were killed by humans and I'm sure the CO's would investigate if given location and information.

[doubled]

This is definitely a dump site. As previously mentioned, there are obvious cut marks on some bones. No chance of avalanche. No trap line that I know of. These were deliberately killed somewhere, "harvested" and then dumped in this location. I called RAPP today and reported it and have not heard from a CO yet.

[Jelvis]

Probably some idiot baiting for bears another illegal action on top of it, was it by a lake? How did you find it, was there birds there or an animal?
Jel..troubled by this possible baiting site. Must think of all the possible reasons, not just tunnel vision before a decision can be made. Take a metal detector and find casings and bullets if it was shot.
...Most poachers are blue collar worker types according to studies out....

[doubled]

This was a dump site. Probably 100 people drive on this road per day. It was dumped. Who baits bears when they are sleeping jelly bean????

[Jelvis]

I thought you were saying it was from around hunting season and it was frozen, so then they were fresh killed, double double? Talk at me. If it was by a main road they could have been hit by a semi maybe then ate by those black birds and some scavengerzzz yes? Bones broke by impact.
Let's here what you think is your final analysis on this CSI, if you could give one little paragraph.
Hi$ Jellyne$$...don't stop now, your thought$

[doubled]

Read my first post Jelly and quit drinking that SuperJuice!!! It was from this Saturday when we went ice fishing. It is on Lost Mtn Rd which is the road from Glenrosa to Bear Main. It gets travelled on alot. Black birds, scavengers and semis do not cut rib cages perfectly down the middle, knives and saws do.

My analysis is that it was a group of people that harvested some moose and dropped the unusable parts on the side of the road.

[Jelvis]

Right on doubled, that explains a whole lot. Good for you RAPP ing it up and I hope the government at least drives out and takes a looky.
Jel--good oooooonnne brah ---

[whitetail2009]

Are you talking about Last Mountain Rd? Which is now called crystal mountain ski resort!just wondering.

[Jelvis]

Where is that Last or Lost mountain what's the nearest town? Whats the MU in that spot your talking about with the dead animals by the road?
j

[doubled]

My mistake. Last Mtn Rd it is .

[Stone Sheep Steve]

My mistake. Last Mtn Rd it is .


See them all the time up there...while yote hunting in the winter and bear hunting in the spring.

SSS

[Jelvis]

Might have to put a fence along that road like by the Coquihalla they won't until someone gets hurt bad.
jel--a big tall fence to keep them from getting hit like that. Sounds like a main crossing.

[1 shot 1 kill]

I would say contact the CO'S..allthough i came across the same thing last year. you could see where the meat was cut away from the bones etc..i took several very clear pics of the scene and forwarded them on. i was given a reply awhile later..i was told that these animals were dumped there by the highways department as they were road kill. and had nothing to do with native winter hunting. yeah okay why not, thats believeable.