Sheep Harvest Stats Region 6

[bridger]

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: charlie lake, bc
Posts: 1,224


Re: stone sheep harvest stats region 7b 2009
here are some historical harvest stats for stone sheep in region 6 that I just received along with a background explanation

1997 to 2003

Resident tags sold--1608
Resident harvest---- 197
success rate---------12%

Non res tags sold-----743
Non res harvest------468
Success rate--------63%

1990-1996

Res tags sold-------1981
Res harvest-------- 345
Res Success------- 17%

Non Res tags sold----633
Non Res Harvest-----471
Non Res Sucess------- 74%

Rich,

This is data that I calculated from MoE data to derive a basis between resident/non-resident hunter numbers in comparison to harvest. As can be seen residents dwarf non-residents in participation but not in harvest, so its not a result of lack of interest on the resident side.

It is also interesting when one considers the total resident and non-resident harvest in the Skeena Region over the past 2 decades we see the combined harvest does not equate to 50% of the cumulative quota given to GO's in the Skeena Region. This points to GO's being grossly over allocated and an underlining reason that has hindered residents. Now consider that the majority of rams harvested occurs in the first 3 weeks of August and that residents have a hard time finding legal rams beyond the end of August. The one that are harvested later by residents are generally marginal rams in the 6-7 year class.

Sheep management in the Skeena Region is a mess particularly that revolving around resident priority and opportunity. The MoE has failed to represent the public interest and negligently shifted its priority to cater to and promote the commercial and non-resident hunting interest first and foremost. The resident only pre-season sheep hunt is desired, justified, with merit and serves the non-commercial public interests. Why has MoE not acted on this request that has been on their table for the last 3 years? At $35,000 a sheep and the total disregard of resident priority and opportunity it almost sound like ????

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Thanks Mr Marshall et al.:?

Safe to say there's a small room for improvement for residents.

Thanks for the info Bridger!

SSS

[BCrams]

Great data and information Rich. Speaks volumes about public interest in Stone's sheep. The point about the first few weeks of August is true, the GO's know where most of the rams are already and which ones they're targetting.




Why has MoE not acted on this request that has been on the table for the last 3 years? At $35, 000 a sheep and the total disregard of resident priority and opportunity it almost sound like ????
Lets not forget everyone, the first sentence applies basically to the entire province regarding resident priority and opportunity ..... not just sheep. Also, what happened to the resident recruitment and retention strategy???

[6616]

Now consider that the majority of rams harvested occurs in the first 3 weeks of August and that residents have a hard time finding legal rams beyond the end of August. The one that are harvested later by residents are generally marginal rams in the 6-7 year class.


Sounds like an early resident-only sheep season is the ticket all right.
Also sounds like the NW guides would probably pull out all stops to block that idea..!

Not to mention the need for an accurate inventory and AAH to base nr quota on. The current situation equates to a completelly unregulated nr harvest, the quota limits nothing.

Similar situation in the Kootenay as well, except for much smaller numbers, nr quota is 48 and traditional nr harvest is 10 to 15 rams, a quota of 48 essentially represents an unregulated GOS type situation for outfitters.

[325 wsm]

According to the numbers you posted it seems residents had 75% of the hunting opportunities and non-res 25%(approx.) and still the non-res took approx. 2/3 of the sheep. It would be interesting to see how many days in the field were spent per hunter. Me thinks many of the resident hunters aren't able to spend as much time in the field as a non-resident hunter. Also it is much easier for a res to wake up in the morning, see some bad weather etc. and decide.....maybe tomorrow or I'll just come back next year. As a guide it's a little harder to justify these excuses when it's your proffession and someone's paying $30,000 for a 10 day hunt. Would be interesting to see these numbers correlated to day's spent in the field. Seems to me a lot of residents are not quite as dedicated or maybe knowledgable (sheep hunting has a learning curve too) but is there really a lack of opportunity. Remember that competition only makes you stronger ( if your actually dedicated). But the resident does need the opportunity to get out there and compete.
Seems like SOME of you are striving for a province you own all to yourselves....trying to eliminate the non-residents and wolves so you don't have any competition. Maybe Some of you would like to hunt in a cage where there is no competition and the success is guaranteed and very little effort is required. SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:

[BiG Boar]

According to the numbers you posted it seems residents had 75% of the hunting opportunities and non-res 25%(approx.) and still the non-res took approx. 2/3 of the sheep. It would be interesting to see how many days in the field were spent per hunter. Me thinks many of the resident hunters aren't able to spend as much time in the field as a non-resident hunter. Also it is much easier for a res to wake up in the morning, see some bad weather etc. and decide.....maybe tomorrow or I'll just come back next year. As a guide it's a little harder to justify these excuses when it's your proffession and someone's paying $30,000 for a 10 day hunt. Would be interesting to see these numbers correlated to day's spent in the field. Seems to me a lot of residents are not quite as dedicated or maybe knowledgable (sheep hunting has a learning curve too) but is there really a lack of opportunity. Remember that competition only makes you stronger ( if your actually dedicated). But the resident does need the opportunity to get out there and compete.
Seems like SOME of you are striving for a province you own all to yourselves....trying to eliminate the non-residents and wolves so you don't have any competition. Maybe Some of you would like to hunt in a cage where there is no competition and the success is guaranteed and very little effort is required. SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:

I think you have got some good points. Days spent in the field would be interesting. It must be hard to compete against guides in the area who scout lots, fly around more than residents, and are there most of the season. I think that non residents should be able to hunt in BC, as we are allowed to hunt in other countries. How many we let come in is the other question.

[325 wsm]

I have no disagreement with regulating the number of non-residents but quota's must be divided fairly.

[ryanb]

I usually avoid these topics, but the proportion of non-resident harvest is region 6 is sickening. Lack of resident effort is clearly not the problem in region 6.

The poor harvest statistics in my mind come down to the shenanigans that go on in the Northwest, what with residents having limited options for access because outfitters try to keep residents out, not to mention the commonplace harassment of residents by GO's once they do gain access.

What I would like to see is a drastic reduction in sheep quotas to GO's to meet the desired resident/non-resident harvest balance. At that point, I believe it becomes beneficial for the GO to help residents harvest more rams, or at least not hinder them from doing so, to increase their quotas.

As much as I would like to see it happen, I just cannot immagine a resident only early season ever becoming reality.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

According to the numbers you posted it seems residents had 75% of the hunting opportunities and non-res 25%(approx.) and still the non-res took approx. 2/3 of the sheep. It would be interesting to see how many days in the field were spent per hunter. Me thinks many of the resident hunters aren't able to spend as much time in the field as a non-resident hunter. Also it is much easier for a res to wake up in the morning, see some bad weather etc. and decide.....maybe tomorrow or I'll just come back next year. As a guide it's a little harder to justify these excuses when it's your proffession and someone's paying $30,000 for a 10 day hunt. Would be interesting to see these numbers correlated to day's spent in the field. Seems to me a lot of residents are not quite as dedicated or maybe knowledgable (sheep hunting has a learning curve too) but is there really a lack of opportunity. Remember that competition only makes you stronger ( if your actually dedicated). But the resident does need the opportunity to get out there and compete.
Seems like SOME of you are striving for a province you own all to yourselves....trying to eliminate the non-residents and wolves so you don't have any competition. Maybe Some of you would like to hunt in a cage where there is no competition and the success is guaranteed and very little effort is required. SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:

I copied my post from the thread. Probably more pertinant to this thread.

""Accessibilty" can mean different things than just having the ability to hike into certain tougher to get to spots.

Here's just one example to show my point...........
A certain member on here did his research and chartered a plane into a good Stone's sheep lake. On his way up there the charter company said that they could no longer take him there(they will no longer fly anyone there).
Well, a later picture revealed that the GO shot a nice 167-168" ram right above the lake on opening day. Go figure:???:.
A lot of people on here gave that member a pretty hard time over the issue but he had ever right to be irate.

Some may call it good business but does that make it fair?? I say BS! This is a perfect reason why residents to should have a 2 week headstart.

Preseason scouting by GO's is widespread(as it should be) but it can result in a "lockdown" of the nearest lake. Some charters are more resident friendly than others but often the extra distances to use them is often cost prohibitive. This is another reason why we need a resident friendly pilot to buy Bruce's outfit.

GO protectionism seems more widespread in Reg 6 than 7B. My guess is that because their quotas are so overinflated due to the "Skeena Fromula" that every legal ram means something to a GO. They don't have the rams to fill their quotas so every resident that they can keep from shooting "their rams" is money in the bank".

SSS

[bridger]

5 Maybe Some of you would like to hunt in a cage where there is no competition and the success is guaranteed and very little effort is required. SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:

living in the yukon and being a guide i imagine makes it difficult to understand the frustration that bc hunters face everytime they go sheep hunting. In bc the main sheep ranges are contained in guide outfitter areas. Many of the sheep ranges have really tough access especially in region 6. the easy access points attract resident hunters as most of us only have 10 days to hunt and no time to pre scout an area. So when we get to a sheep spot 99% of the time we are competing head to head with a guide outfitter who already knows where the sheep are. you should gry it sometime it isn't much fun. The outfitters have lots of remote area to hunt but hit the easy access points on opening day to reduce resident success. Simple as that. In region 6 the quota's are so high that there is reallly no difference than being on gos for non residents. the situation sucks and that is what needs to be sucked up and thrown out.

[Rubberfist]

According to the numbers you posted it seems residents had 75% of the hunting opportunities and non-res 25%(approx.) and still the non-res took approx. 2/3 of the sheep. It would be interesting to see how many days in the field were spent per hunter. Me thinks many of the resident hunters aren't able to spend as much time in the field as a non-resident hunter. Also it is much easier for a res to wake up in the morning, see some bad weather etc. and decide.....maybe tomorrow or I'll just come back next year. As a guide it's a little harder to justify these excuses when it's your proffession and someone's paying $30,000 for a 10 day hunt. Would be interesting to see these numbers correlated to day's spent in the field. Seems to me a lot of residents are not quite as dedicated or maybe knowledgable (sheep hunting has a learning curve too) but is there really a lack of opportunity. Remember that competition only makes you stronger ( if your actually dedicated). But the resident does need the opportunity to get out there and compete.
Seems like SOME of you are striving for a province you own all to yourselves....trying to eliminate the non-residents and wolves so you don't have any competition. Maybe Some of you would like to hunt in a cage where there is no competition and the success is guaranteed and very little effort is required. SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:

Clearly you are a non-res or affiliated with a GO.

Let me point out a couple of things:
1 - take your cheeky attitude and stow it. It's attitudes like yours that make resident hunters despise non-resident hunters.
2 - remember that non-res are guests; they are permitted to hunt in an area they are not resident in...learn to be appreciative and respectful as a good guest should or you'll find that while your money may be welcomed, you are not.
3 - it's interesting that you have the chutzpa to criticize resident hunters on their dedication and knowledge - which group is the one that relies on the expertise of professional animal harvesters for success and which group is doing it on their own?
4 - your rhetoric about competition making one stronger is not valid when one group has distinct advantages over another.
5 - bragging up the success of the guided non-res harvest over the unguided res harvest is tantemount to boasting about how you drank more than the locals while on an all-inclusive vacation.
6 - "SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:" Riiiiiiight. Because hiring a professional guide makes YOU a good hunter. Do you perform observational hypocritical comedy for a living?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I agree. Some Reg. 6 outfitters have a quota that may have been determined by a dice roll.

There are some funky numbers. Like Ron Fleming having more tags than Collingwoods have in Spatsizi. I'd like to hear the logic there. Same with Shane Black/Turnagain Lake. No frickin way he'll ever fill his quota of rams in a season.

I can't remember the exact numbers but using the Skeena Formula(maybe someone can fill them in).... if a certain percentage (I think it's ~ 80%)of a GO's rams are over 8 yrs old then there is an automatic increase of "x" % in his quota. If his percentage of 8 yr old rams is below a certain percentage then his quota is reduced.
This has been going on for yrs and now the quotas are completely meaningless and have nothing to do with real sheep numbers.

SSS

[bridger]

i think the % in 65. that is the formula that was first used in 7b years ago but we threw it out as there is no top end . at the height of its idocy in 7b the quota was 67% of the allowable harvest.

[GoatGuy]

According to the numbers you posted it seems residents had 75% of the hunting opportunities and non-res 25%(approx.) and still the non-res took approx. 2/3 of the sheep. It would be interesting to see how many days in the field were spent per hunter. Me thinks many of the resident hunters aren't able to spend as much time in the field as a non-resident hunter. Also it is much easier for a res to wake up in the morning, see some bad weather etc. and decide.....maybe tomorrow or I'll just come back next year. As a guide it's a little harder to justify these excuses when it's your proffession and someone's paying $30,000 for a 10 day hunt. Would be interesting to see these numbers correlated to day's spent in the field. Seems to me a lot of residents are not quite as dedicated or maybe knowledgable (sheep hunting has a learning curve too) but is there really a lack of opportunity. Remember that competition only makes you stronger ( if your actually dedicated). But the resident does need the opportunity to get out there and compete.
Seems like SOME of you are striving for a province you own all to yourselves....trying to eliminate the non-residents and wolves so you don't have any competition. Maybe Some of you would like to hunt in a cage where there is no competition and the success is guaranteed and very little effort is required. SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:

Days in the field per resident sheep hunter in Region 6= 7.54
Days in the field per non-resident sheep hunter in Region 6= 6.57

It sounded good in your post though. :wink:

Being a guide you know that there's very few resident hunters you actually have to compete with. Most residents don't have horses or planes. Even those with horses don't have wranglers so that ties up a good chunk of the day, nevermind cooking and setting up camp. I don't think anybody's said g/os need to be cut out. Their share needs to reflect the number of animals first and the allocation policy.

In Region 6 the sheep simply don't exist.

[yukon john]

I guided stone sheep for the first time last year in BC. To start off the season the other 2 guides and I hunted a area with lots of road access and GOS We had lots of residents hunting near us. There was 35 quads 2 argos, 2 pack strings and one very ambitious pickup many of the quads had 2 guys. All three of the guides got their rams. My client got his ram where we had seen 3 other hunters the previous day and one of the other clients got his ram 500 yards from a residents tent (resident was no where in sight). As far as I know I only heard of 2 or 3 rams taken by residents and I didnt actually see any. This gives you an idea of the devotion and skill level of most of these guys. I want to stress that there are some residents who are hard core sheep killers and definatly know what they are doing but most of the guys I saw this year were fat guys on quads with beer in their hands maybe thats why they dont kill sheep. Sheep are a animal you earn and you can expect to go home empty handed more often then not, if you like shoo-ins Im told you can get stone rams in Tennessee for 5 grand

[budismyhorse]

I guided stone sheep for the first time last year in BC. To start off the season the other 2 guides and I hunted a area with lots of road access and GOS We had lots of residents hunting near us. There was 35 quads 2 argos, 2 pack strings and one very ambitious pickup many of the quads had 2 guys. All three of the guides got their rams. My client got his ram where we had seen 3 other hunters the previous day and one of the other clients got his ram 500 yards from a residents tent (resident was no where in sight). As far as I know I only heard of 2 or 3 rams taken by residents and I didnt actually see any. This gives you an idea of the devotion and skill level of most of these guys. I want to stress that there are some residents who are hard core sheep killers and definatly know what they are doing but most of the guys I saw this year were fat guys on quads with beer in their hands maybe thats why they dont kill sheep. Sheep are a animal you earn and you can expect to go home empty handed more often then not, if you like shoo-ins Im told you can get stone rams in Tennessee for 5 grand


Pretty standard account of the opener in some areas....so what you are saying is completely backing up Bridger's claim that in the early part of the season, instead of heading to the remote portions of their territory, outfitters purposely hunt the easy ground and directly compete with residents?? Thanks for clearing that up.

Quite likely, with a 2 week resident hunter advantage, those three rams you and your guides killed are killed by residents.....I mean, in the tent, out of the tent at the time, drinking beer, fat or skinny, eventually, those rams are killed by someone in those easy access areas. Add up those extra rams killed by residents over the entire province and the percent harvested by residents may start to look a bit more acceptable. No?

[yukon john]

Pretty standard account of the opener in some areas....so what you are saying is completely backing up Bridger's claim that in the early part of the season, instead of heading to the remote portions of their territory, outfitters purposely hunt the easy ground and directly compete with residents?? Thanks for clearing that up.
Actually we are a 4 ram outfit per year with all of our sheep within easy resident access our ''remote'' portions are swamp with a few goat mountains

[bighornbob]

Pretty standard account of the opener in some areas....so what you are saying is completely backing up Bridger's claim that in the early part of the season, instead of heading to the remote portions of their territory, outfitters purposely hunt the easy ground and directly compete with residents?? Thanks for clearing that up.


A friend who worked for one of the guides along the alaskan highway also said they hammer the easy spots first. I figured they would leave those areas alone and head into the back country to avoid the residents. He said, if they knew there was a legal ram close by, the outfitter would send in 3 guides and 3 hunters to try and kill it. That way they increased their chances of killing it. This way the outfitter would only have to send two guys, gear and horses into the backcountry as one of their hunters would usually score as they usually knew where the rams were or would go with a little pressure. As my friend explained it, why take all that time and expense going way into the backcountry when you can do a day hunt from the main lodge.

BHB

[budismyhorse]

Actually we are a 4 ram outfit per year with all of our sheep within easy resident access our ''remote'' portions are swamp with a few goat mountains

What is the territory like? are there more remote areas the Outfitter could send you to? May end up with a less stressfull hunt not having to compete with fat boys on Argos.

[yukon john]

What is the territory like? are there more remote areas the Outfitter could send you to? May end up with a less stressfull hunt not having to compete with fat boys on Argos.

If there was sheep away from the residents we would hunt them believe it or not guides dont like explaining to the clients why there are residents with a 60$ tag in there pocket crawling all over the place. It just so happens that our sheep like the smell of asphalt I guess. ( the fat boys where on the quads the guys in the argos where in pretty good shape:-D)

[budismyhorse]

A friend who worked for one of the guides along the alaskan highway also said they hammer the easy spots first. I figured they would leave those areas alone and head into the back country to avoid the residents. He said, if they knew there was a legal ram close by, the outfitter would send in 3 guides and 3 hunters to try and kill it. That way they increased their chances of killing it. This way the outfitter would only have to send two guys, gear and horses into the backcountry as one of their hunters would usually score as they usually knew where the rams were or would go with a little pressure. As my friend explained it, why take all that time and expense going way into the backcountry when you can do a day hunt from the main lodge.

BHB

....then how can anyone question why a 2 week resident only season wouldn't help the resident harvest........the problem is in areas like the one Yukon John is talking about, the Outfitter has no other option, so it would definitely impact his operation.

[willy442]

According to the numbers you posted it seems residents had 75% of the hunting opportunities and non-res 25%(approx.) and still the non-res took approx. 2/3 of the sheep. It would be interesting to see how many days in the field were spent per hunter. Me thinks many of the resident hunters aren't able to spend as much time in the field as a non-resident hunter. Also it is much easier for a res to wake up in the morning, see some bad weather etc. and decide.....maybe tomorrow or I'll just come back next year. As a guide it's a little harder to justify these excuses when it's your proffession and someone's paying $30,000 for a 10 day hunt. Would be interesting to see these numbers correlated to day's spent in the field. Seems to me a lot of residents are not quite as dedicated or maybe knowledgable (sheep hunting has a learning curve too) but is there really a lack of opportunity. Remember that competition only makes you stronger ( if your actually dedicated). But the resident does need the opportunity to get out there and compete.
Seems like SOME of you are striving for a province you own all to yourselves....trying to eliminate the non-residents and wolves so you don't have any competition. Maybe Some of you would like to hunt in a cage where there is no competition and the success is guaranteed and very little effort is required. SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:

My recommendation is that, the issueing of every resident sheep tag, should be accompanied with a Johnson & Johnson baby pacifyer and a bundle of wet wipes. I have never heard such a bunch of whinning and crying. As far back as history records, hunters were MEN of status and were honoured by others. Guess we lost that back when.
If you want equality with the success of the G/O's invest in the equipment like they have. There is not one person on this site that fails to have that ability. Rich youy for one have done that and hunted the inaccessable remote areas and still do. I have nothing against resident only areas, but am dead against any special seasons. Truth be known sheep hunting is always better later if you're man enough to take the weather.

[ryanb]

My recommendation is that, the issueing of every resident sheep tag, should be accompanied with a Johnson & Johnson baby pacifyer and a bundle of wet wipes. I have never heard such a bunch of whinning and crying. As far back as history records, hunters were MEN of status and were honoured by others. Guess we lost that back when.
If you want equality with the success of the G/O's invest in the equipment like they have. There is not one person on this site that fails to have that ability. Rich youy for one have done that and hunted the inaccessable remote areas and still do. I have nothing against resident only areas, but am dead against any special seasons. Truth be known sheep hunting is always better later if you're man enough to take the weather.

Oh bulloney! The GO's are going out of their way in region 6 to limit resident sheep hunting through access roadblocks, initimidation, and harassment.

[325 wsm]

Clearly you are a non-res or affiliated with a GO.

Let me point out a couple of things:
1 - take your cheeky attitude and stow it. It's attitudes like yours that make resident hunters despise non-resident hunters.
2 - remember that non-res are guests; they are permitted to hunt in an area they are not resident in...learn to be appreciative and respectful as a good guest should or you'll find that while your money may be welcomed, you are not.
3 - it's interesting that you have the chutzpa to criticize resident hunters on their dedication and knowledge - which group is the one that relies on the expertise of professional animal harvesters for success and which group is doing it on their own?
4 - your rhetoric about competition making one stronger is not valid when one group has distinct advantages over another.
5 - bragging up the success of the guided non-res harvest over the unguided res harvest is tantemount to boasting about how you drank more than the locals while on an all-inclusive vacation.
6 - "SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:" Riiiiiiight. Because hiring a professional guide makes YOU a good hunter. Do you perform observational hypocritical comedy for a living?
I'll give you a good response but I will have to stop laughing first:mrgreen:

[325 wsm]

[quote=Stone Sheep Steve;598554]I copied my post from the thread. Probably more pertinant to this thread.

""Accessibilty" can mean different things than just having the ability to hike into certain tougher to get to spots.

Here's just one example to show my point...........
A certain member on here did his research and chartered a plane into a good Stone's sheep lake. On his way up there the charter company said that they could no longer take him there(they will no longer fly anyone there).
Well, a later picture revealed that the GO shot a nice 167-168" ram right above the lake on opening day. Go figure:???:.
A lot of people on here gave that member a pretty hard time over the issue but he had ever right to be irate.

Good point but if it weren't for the GO's those planes wouldn't have enough business to be at most of those locations in the first place. Most business owners regardless of the type of business have preffered customers because those preffered customers are their main income. That is just common business sense.

[bigwhiteys]

A friend who worked for one of the guides along the alaskan highway also said they hammer the easy spots first. I figured they would leave those areas alone and head into the back country to avoid the residents. He said, if they knew there was a legal ram close by, the outfitter would send in 3 guides and 3 hunters to try and kill it. That way they increased their chances of killing it. This way the outfitter would only have to send two guys, gear and horses into the backcountry as one of their hunters would usually score as they usually knew where the rams were or would go with a little pressure. As my friend explained it, why take all that time and expense going way into the backcountry when you can do a day hunt from the main lodge.

BHB


I am calling bullshit... Dale Drinkall (Terminus) and Leif of Stn Mtn Safaris both are in position to hunt the highway, I've run into them, talked to the guides. Not ONCE have I seen the scene your friend describes. And your buddy likely guided for one or the other...

I've seen 3 guides and 3 hunters loading up a packsting and heading out from some of the trailheads along the highway for sure but not climbing all over the front country like some would suggest. If they know of a GOOD ram close by, then sure they'll take it. And I know of several GOOD rams that have been taken by outfitters and residents both right off the highway.

Carl

[6616]

If there was sheep away from the residents we would hunt them believe it or not guides dont like explaining to the clients why there are residents with a 60$ tag in there pocket crawling all over the place. It just so happens that our sheep like the smell of asphalt I guess. ( the fat boys where on the quads the guys in the argos where in pretty good shape:-D)

why is it that non-residents would expect to have exclusive areas to themselves and that there shouldn't be resident hunters about..? Where do they come from, don't they have resident hunters where they come from?

[GoatGuy]

Good point but if it weren't for the GO's those planes wouldn't have enough business to be at most of those locations in the first place. Most business owners regardless of the type of business have preffered customers because those preffered customers are their main income. That is just common business sense.

That plane, which is now a beaver, won't fly residents into any sheep lakes.

[riflebuilder]

My recommendation is that, the issueing of every resident sheep tag, should be accompanied with a Johnson & Johnson baby pacifyer and a bundle of wet wipes. I have never heard such a bunch of whinning and crying. As far back as history records, hunters were MEN of status and were honoured by others. Guess we lost that back when.
If you want equality with the success of the G/O's invest in the equipment like they have. There is not one person on this site that fails to have that ability. Rich youy for one have done that and hunted the inaccessable remote areas and still do. I have nothing against resident only areas, but am dead against any special seasons. Truth be known sheep hunting is always better later if you're man enough to take the weather.


I have hunted sheep four times in the north and have yet to harvest one. I could hire an outfitter and go which would increase my odds of sucess, but even not harvesting one they were still great trips. Not all sucess is measured by killing something.

[willy442]

I have hunted sheep four times in the north an have yet to harvest one. I could hire an outfitter and go which would increase my odds of sucess, but even not harvesting one they were still great trips. Not all sucess is measure by killing something.

I fully agree with you and in actuality the killing of one is anti-climatic as the chase is then over. You along with your view on the issue leaves you somewhat seperated from those on here that would fall under the facts in my post.
Let me ask. How many times have you been jerked around by guides on your four trips?

[325 wsm]

5 Maybe Some of you would like to hunt in a cage where there is no competition and the success is guaranteed and very little effort is required. SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:

living in the yukon and being a guide i imagine makes it difficult to understand the frustration that bc hunters face everytime they go sheep hunting. In bc the main sheep ranges are contained in guide outfitter areas. Many of the sheep ranges have really tough access especially in region 6. the easy access points attract resident hunters as most of us only have 10 days to hunt and no time to pre scout an area. So when we get to a sheep spot 99% of the time we are competing head to head with a guide outfitter who already knows where the sheep are. you should gry it sometime it isn't much fun. The outfitters have lots of remote area to hunt but hit the easy access points on opening day to reduce resident success. Simple as that. In region 6 the quota's are so high that there is reallly no difference than being on gos for non residents. the situation sucks and that is what needs to be sucked up and thrown out.


Bridger I have assisted with 2 stone sheep hunts in B.C. , 1 with a friend and 1 with my bro and nephew. In these 2 hunts I have spent 4 days hunting in total and assisted in the harvest of 2 rams.On the first one about 10 years ago we tried to hire a pilot to fly us over some country we had never set foot in before and were refused. We hired a jet boat, went across the lake, hiked up the mountain, set up camp and had a sheep down the next day. As we skinned it a guide and hunter came rushing over the ridge and demanded to see our hunting license. We did not have to oblige but showed him a license and tag and told him to have a nice day. So I actually have experienced it in B.C. and 2 similar occasions in the Yukon.
It is unfortunate that some, (most, or even all as claimed by some,) outfitters try to hit the easily accessible spots, but do you expect them to just give in. Would you have when you were an outfitter?

[boxhitch]

I am calling bullshit... Dale Drinkall (Terminus) and Leif of Stn Mtn Safaris both are in position to hunt the highway, I've run into them, talked to the guides. Not ONCE have I seen the scene your friend describes. And your buddy likely guided for one or the other...

I've seen 3 guides and 3 hunters loading up a packsting and heading out from some of the trailheads along the highway for sure but not climbing all over the front country like some would suggest. If they know of a GOOD ram close by, then sure they'll take it. And I know of several GOOD rams that have been taken by outfitters and residents both right off the highway.

CarlNo surprise that both groups hunt that area, it produces sheep. Some of the better numbers, and consistantly over years. The only area BCers have been close to overachieving quotas.
We all do what we can to use the least effort required. Saves the sweat, equipment and the bankroll. Of course that is viewed as unfair competition.

Its a small portion of the hunters that are affected by g/o presence, the earlier opening may help a few of that group.

[325 wsm]

RIFLEBUILDER.....you sound like a real hunter....my hats off to you

[bigwhiteys]

Its a small portion of the hunters that are affected by g/o presence, the earlier opening may help a few of that group.

So why cater to such a small group with a special season? Give them ALL a specific area where they can hunt without GO presence or harvest.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

I am calling bullshit... Dale Drinkall (Terminus) and Leif of Stn Mtn Safaris both are in position to hunt the highway, I've run into them, talked to the guides. Not ONCE have I seen the scene your friend describes. And your buddy likely guided for one or the other...

I've seen 3 guides and 3 hunters loading up a packsting and heading out from some of the trailheads along the highway for sure but not climbing all over the front country like some would suggest. If they know of a GOOD ram close by, then sure they'll take it. And I know of several GOOD rams that have been taken by outfitters and residents both right off the highway.

Carl

I worked for an outfitter who hunts the accessible areas early. Also know a couple of guides, who don't work for the two outfitters mentioned, that do the same thing. First hunts are closest to access, whether it be a highway, a lake or river.

Sheep are traditional and on the opener everybody has their 'secret spots'. Usually you end up with residents and non-residents in the same spots. It's simply a fact of life.

If there were as many rams as people talk about and so little competition why don't outfitters book in September when there's fewer resident hunters in the bush, the bugs are down and generally speaking the weather's better?

Why are the majority of the non-res sheep shot in the first two weeks of the season?

If there's as many sheep as some think that would be the way to go. Better capes and a better 'quality of hunt'.

[GoatGuy]

....then how can anyone question why a 2 week resident only season wouldn't help the resident harvest........the problem is in areas like the one Yukon John is talking about, the Outfitter has no other option, so it would definitely impact his operation.

Need quotas that are realistic.

[GoatGuy]

So why cater to such a small group with a special season? Give them ALL a specific area where they can hunt without GO presence or harvest.

Carl

It would certainly give an idea of how realistic the quotas truly are.

[GoatGuy]

I guided stone sheep for the first time last year in BC. To start off the season the other 2 guides and I hunted a area with lots of road access and GOS We had lots of residents hunting near us. There was 35 quads 2 argos, 2 pack strings and one very ambitious pickup many of the quads had 2 guys. All three of the guides got their rams. My client got his ram where we had seen 3 other hunters the previous day and one of the other clients got his ram 500 yards from a residents tent (resident was no where in sight). As far as I know I only heard of 2 or 3 rams taken by residents and I didnt actually see any. This gives you an idea of the devotion and skill level of most of these guys. I want to stress that there are some residents who are hard core sheep killers and definatly know what they are doing but most of the guys I saw this year were fat guys on quads with beer in their hands maybe thats why they dont kill sheep. Sheep are a animal you earn and you can expect to go home empty handed more often then not, if you like shoo-ins Im told you can get stone rams in Tennessee for 5 grand

Why don't you just book hunts in September or October when all the resident's have left?

[willy442]

If there were as many rams as people talk about and so little competition why don't outfitters book in September when there's fewer resident hunters in the bush, the bugs are down and generally speaking the weather's better?


It has nothing to do with the Sheep. Fact of the matter is, guiding is a business, active days mean profit. This all translates to the fact that nothing else is open to hunt. You have your crew hunt Sheep at the start of the season to free them up in Sept for Moose, Elk, Goat and Caribou hunts, maximizing hunting or operating days.

The G/O is left having to take his Rams early not by choice but due to business reasons. Unfortunatly this completes the Sheep hunting of G/O's earlier than probably it should be, in some cases leaving prime country unhunted.

This is not a problem to the resident if Res only areas are developed and the guide pushed back. (Make him use his tools). The G/O can get back farther at the start of season. The G/O is out of direct competition with the resident (which seems to be a huge problem) and the residents ability to hunt would be the only factor interfering with his success.

[GoatGuy]

It has nothing to do with the Sheep. Fact of the matter is, guiding is a business, active days mean profit. This all translates to the fact that nothing else is open to hunt. You have your crew hunt Sheep at the start of the season to free them up in Sept for Moose, Elk, Goat and Caribou hunts, maximizing hunting or operating days.

The G/O is left having to take his Rams early not by choice but due to business reasons. Unfortunatly this completes the Sheep hunting of G/O's earlier than probably it should be, in some cases leaving prime country unhunted.

This is not a problem to the resident if Res only areas are developed and the guide pushed back. (Make him use his tools). The G/O can get back farther at the start of season. The G/O is out of direct competition with the resident (which seems to be a huge problem) and the residents ability to hunt would be the only factor interfering with his success.

I probably should have been far more specific:

Why do the days per kill increase significantly in sept and october hunts?

Days per kill during the first 2 weeks of august are low - that goes up as the season goes on. Why is that?

[Rubberfist]

I'll give you a good response but I will have to stop laughing first:mrgreen:

Yeah yeah...pull your head out of your arse while you're at it :mrgreen:.

[willy442]

I probably should have been far more specific:

Why do the days per kill increase significantly in sept and october hunts?

Days per kill during the first 2 weeks of august are low - that goes up as the season goes on. Why is that?

Hunters are on mixed bag hunts, not just concentrating on Sheep. Old mother nature and her bad weather is a little more common also.

[325 wsm]

Clearly you are a non-res or affiliated with a GO.

Let me point out a couple of things:
1 - take your cheeky attitude and stow it. It's attitudes like yours that make resident hunters despise non-resident hunters.
2 - remember that non-res are guests; they are permitted to hunt in an area they are not resident in...learn to be appreciative and respectful as a good guest should or you'll find that while your money may be welcomed, you are not.
3 - it's interesting that you have the chutzpa to criticize resident hunters on their dedication and knowledge - which group is the one that relies on the expertise of professional animal harvesters for success and which group is doing it on their own?
4 - your rhetoric about competition making one stronger is not valid when one group has distinct advantages over another.
5 - bragging up the success of the guided non-res harvest over the unguided res harvest is tantemount to boasting about how you drank more than the locals while on an all-inclusive vacation.
6 - "SUCK IT UP AND HUNT LIKE MEN (OR WOMEN).:evil:" Riiiiiiight. Because hiring a professional guide makes YOU a good hunter. Do you perform observational hypocritical comedy for a living?


1. cheeky attitudes are allowed as it is a public forum. If opinions didn't differ we wouldn't need a forum.
2.residents don't have the inherent right to hunt but are afforded the privilage by the govt. ....same as non-residents
3. I've been a hunter for over 30 years and a guide for 17. As a guide my success rate is over 95% and as a hunter it's lower than 50%. Non-residents must legally obtain a guide to hunt big game in B.C.. And thanks for pointing out that I am a proffesional as some would beg to differ.
4.your just wrong
5.Sorry the facts in Bridgers list of numbers dissapoints you.
6.Hiring a guide makes it legal if you are a non-resident. Hope you enjoyed the show folks:-D

[bridger]

competition for the resource between residency groups in 7b is not limited to easily accessible areas along the alaska highway between fat out of shape bc residents with a beer in their hands and in shape organized outfitters. Nor is it in region 6. Get that straight!!
Most of my sheep hunting has been done a long ways from the alaska highway at great expense and effort and my partner and i constantly compete head to head with guides and their hunters. The truth of the matter is that guides hunt where the sheep are whether it is along the alaska highway or the backside of the prophet bench. find a sheep mountain and you can bet your ass their will be a guide and non resident hunter on it. The majority of resident sheep hunters do not have the time nor money to compete with professional guides. we lose more times than we win and when the scales get this far out of balance as they are in region 6 they need to be tweaked. that is the whole reason for asking for a two week head start for residents. After all we do have priority even the goabc and moe pays lip service to that principle.

[Kody94]

competition for the resource between residency groups in 7b is not limited to easily accessible areas along the alaska highway between fat out of shape bc residents with a beer in their hands and in shape organized outfitters. Nor is it in region 6. Get that straight!!
Most of my sheep hunting has been done a long ways from the alaska highway at great expense and effort and my partner and i constantly compete head to head with guides and their hunters. The truth of the matter is that guides hunt where the sheep are whether it is along the alaska highway or the backside of the prophet bench. find a sheep mountain and you can bet your ass their will be a guide and non resident hunter on it. The majority of resident sheep hunters do not have the time nor money to compete with professional guides. we lose more times than we win and when the scales get this far out of balance as they are in region 6 they need to be tweaked. that is the whole reason for asking for a two week head start for residents. After all we do have priority even the goabc and moe pays lip service to that principle.

I have to agree with that. I haven't hunted in many places for stone sheep that would be considered particularly accessible, and have yet to find that an outfitter wasn't already there, or in the near vicinity. I did "win" once though. ;)

[yukon john]

why is it that non-residents would expect to have exclusive areas to themselves and that there shouldn't be resident hunters about..? Where do they come from, don't they have resident hunters where they come from?
I didnt say anything like that I was merely responding to another member saying that given the extra resources we have as guides (ie planes, horses) we would prefer to leave the accessible areas to the residents and hunt a more remote spot then everyone is happy. There is enough guide vs resident threads on here maybe try to start a fight on one of them.

[boxhitch]

So why cater to such a small group with a special season? There is no logical reason not to, so bring on the opportunity.
Like the 1-in-3 rule, dropping it helps out a handful of repeaters, but not to any detriment.

[boxhitch]

......why don't outfitters book in September when there's fewer resident hunters in the bush, the bugs are down and generally speaking the weather's better?

Why are the majority of the non-res sheep shot in the first two weeks of the season?
A couple reason I can figure
- g/o's don't feel the competition is a big concern.
-Try to book a texan in a month of long days and high temperatures, or shorter colder days with a chance of frost
-Everybody wants to be first, not taking leftovers
-Sheep are the only hunt going in early August, using up all the hands and eyes. Later with more hunts happening the crews are spread thinner.
-For those g/o's that do not over-book for the quota number, when the early hunts ar unsuccessful and permits are un-filled, other hunters can be booked on short notice into the later hunts to help fill the tags.

[BCrams]

I am all for the 2 week head start for resident hunters, more so than having a corridor resident only area because I believe residents like those who have the means (jetboats, horses, planes etc) to access remote areas should also have that early jump and opportunity to harvest rams first before the non-resident do.

That said, there will be guys who will continue to hunt in August, September and October. Its their choice, just as it will be for guys who want to hunt before the GO's can.

[6616]

I didnt say anything like that I was merely responding to another member saying that given the extra resources we have as guides (ie planes, horses) we would prefer to leave the accessible areas to the residents and hunt a more remote spot then everyone is happy. There is enough guide vs resident threads on here maybe try to start a fight on one of them.

You make it sound like the non-resident clients who pay big bucks feel there should be no residents around to bother them, or that they should have special preferential treatment over the residents just because they pay so much. I think that's a pretty outlandish attitude to bring to a foreign country.

[boxhitch]

Many clients chuckle at the mention of possibly seeing someone else during the hunt. They say we don't know what competition is. Most are amazed they can hunt 2 weeks and not see someone else. Most only come with the expectations fed to them by the booking agent, they are reasonable people.

[bridger]

I don't want to hijack this thread but wasn't the moose season in the ek changed because the go's complained that resident moose hunters were taking away from the quality experience they were trying to provide for their non resident elk hunters? Seems like I heard that somewhere.

[GoatGuy]

competition for the resource between residency groups in 7b is not limited to easily accessible areas along the alaska highway between fat out of shape bc residents with a beer in their hands and in shape organized outfitters. Nor is it in region 6. Get that straight!!
Most of my sheep hunting has been done a long ways from the alaska highway at great expense and effort and my partner and i constantly compete head to head with guides and their hunters. The truth of the matter is that guides hunt where the sheep are whether it is along the alaska highway or the backside of the prophet bench. find a sheep mountain and you can bet your ass their will be a guide and non resident hunter on it. The majority of resident sheep hunters do not have the time nor money to compete with professional guides. we lose more times than we win and when the scales get this far out of balance as they are in region 6 they need to be tweaked. that is the whole reason for asking for a two week head start for residents. After all we do have priority even the goabc and moe pays lip service to that principle.

I can vouch for that. We spent 14 days chasing critters up north, and we were 4 days in and days from any lakes and every spot we camped at the grass was knocked right down to nothing. Pretty sad when you've gotta camp in pneumonia holes and swamps to find good grass, especially up north. It ain't residents that are hunting that country.

[6616]

I don't want to hijack this thread but wasn't the moose season in the ek changed because the go's complained that resident moose hunters were taking away from the quality experience they were trying to provide for their non resident elk hunters? Seems like I heard that somewhere.

The spike/fork moose season was initiated for the first time in Region 4 in 2009. The original proposal was for a Sept 20th opening date to align with Regions 3 and 8. The southern guides then made the complaint about impacting the quality of their elk hunts. Low and behold, when the season fianlly became a reality the opening date was after the elk season had closed.

[bridger]

The more things change the more they stay the same. thanks andy

[lange1212]

Comments from a new member:-D

When the total resident and non-resident sheep harvest added together does not equate to 50% of the cumulative GO quota assigned in Region 6 supports the concern of quota being too high. At $30,000 - $40,000 US for a stone's sheep hunt, if you were in the GO'ing business, had a waiting list of clients and a sought after species such as this would you let quota go unused if you had the sheep to harvest? I think not.

Although many territories likely don't have the mature rams there remains a huge financial benefit to GO's having an artificially inflated quota. The benefit comes when the territory comes up for sale or lease and the territory quota, particularly that of sheep dictates the value of it.

Such management of our wildlife resource is not in its or the public interest, but supportive of commercial hunting interest. With inflated quotas a larger portion of legal rams are taken early leaving few later in the season, primarily why GO's shift their interests to other species after August. Its bad for business when you send NR sheep hunting clients home skunked. Imagine the bad publicly an outfit would get at the many conventions they attend to sell hunts. Would you hire a guide if you heard repeated accounts of "hunted 10 days and never seen a legal ram" or "nothing seen was worth shooting". Quotas have to be brought down to reality and based on sound inventory work.

The resident only season has merit, is sustainable, justified and would be a strong reflection of resident priority. This is nothing new and exists in many other jurisdictions. The intent of the proposal is not to exclude GO's, just that of non-residents. GO's would be able to take advantage of the resident only season with the only restriction being that their client must be resident of BC.Yet commercial hunting interest adamantly oppose the implementation of this resident only pre-season sheep hunt even though it would add 2 weeks to their season as well.

[bridger]

you may be a newcomer to the site but you obviously understand the situation. very nice post.

[boatdoc]

2.residents don't have the inherent right to hunt but are afforded the privilage by the govt. ....same as non-residents

The gov't we residents have elected to carry out our wishes , politicians seem to forget that they work for us. That said, if we wish to have a season changed they should be listening to us.

[Kody94]

Comments from a new member:-D

When the total resident and non-resident sheep harvest added together does not equate to 50% of the cumulative GO quota assigned in Region 6 supports the concern of quota being too high. At $30,000 - $40,000 US for a stone's sheep hunt, if you were in the GO'ing business, had a waiting list of clients and a sought after species such as this would you let quota go unused if you had the sheep to harvest? I think not.



Bingo. You don't need any more science than that IMHO.

[boxhitch]

Clients are probably happy to book with any g/o that can produce 70% success, Many cannot achieve this.
If the top producers are having trouble booking at $30k then the lesser hunts will be priced less, and will have less interest.
G/o with enlarged quotas would be doing themselves if they were to book all the permits then be able to fill half or less.
Client success trumps available quotas IMO

[325 wsm]

2.residents don't have the inherent right to hunt but are afforded the privilage by the govt. ....same as non-residents

The gov't we residents have elected to carry out our wishes , politicians seem to forget that they work for us. That said, if we wish to have a season changed they should be listening to us.


No arguing with that. The problem you have is that politicians listen more so to businesses and corporations who spend big bucks than to non-profit organizations such as the BCWF. The reason being is because they know that if they pass a law that will negatively effect the economy they WILL loose votes, whereas if they are only cutting into a recreational pursuit a lot of those voters will still vote for them based on other merits (or the fact that their really is no one better to vote for). Politicians are also aware of the fact that 1 dollar of resident money spent needs to circulate 7 times to be as beneficial as 1 dollar of non-resident money spent.
Maybe that's not the way it should be but it is.
Should the BCWF start purchasing these GO areas and running them themselves? Then they could control everything according to the wishes of their members. Use profits to buy more areas. This would also make residents feel better about the non-residents I would think. Wouldn't that be a win win situation for residents?

[GoatGuy]

Politicians are also aware of the fact that 1 dollar of resident money spent needs to circulate 7 times to be as beneficial as 1 dollar of non-resident money spent.
Maybe that's not the way it should be but it is.


Do you have a reference to that?

Curious.

[325 wsm]

Do you have a reference to that?

Curious.


Hell no but if heard it many times. :-DDoes anyone else have a reference that can help me out. :confused:

[boxhitch]

Should the BCWF start purchasing these GO areas and running them themselves? Then they could control everything according to the wishes of their members. Use profits to buy more areas. This would also make residents feel better about the non-residents I would think. Wouldn't that be a win win situation for residents?Profits ?? yuk-yuk
Allocation Policy lays out the shares, lets just worry about our portion, what g/os do with theirs shouldn't bother anyone.
I don't give a ratzazz if they run a club for private members, underbook or overbook, or fly a plane without insurance. Thats their business decision. As long as it doesn't effect my portion of the take.

[325 wsm]

[quote=boxhitch;600578]Profits ?? yuk-yuk
Allocation Policy lays out the shares, lets just worry about our portion, what g/os do with theirs shouldn't bother anyone.

If the BCWF was the GO they could manage the non-resident quota how they saw fit as long as it didn't exceed the govt. allotment.

Just trying to throw out some new ideas instead of arguing.
As I have stated in other threads I sit on both sides of the fence

[325 wsm]

[
I don't give a ratzazz if they run a club for private members, underbook or overbook, or fly a plane without insurance. Thats their business decision. As long as it doesn't effect my portion of the take.[/quote]

Your portion is only 1 sheep per year.:wink:

[yukon john]

[
I don't give a ratzazz if they run a club for private members, underbook or overbook, or fly a plane without insurance. Thats their business decision. As long as it doesn't effect my portion of the take.

Your portion is only 1 sheep per year.:wink:[/quote]

I believe boxhitch is talking about his paycheck at the end of the season

[boxhitch]

No my reference was to the BCers portion of the AAH.
Just saying it doesn't matter how g/o's choose to handle their business, within the laws and guidelines, we have a portion of the take that should satisfy everyone.

[358mag]

Your portion is only 1 sheep per year.:wink:

I believe boxhitch is talking about his paycheck at the end of the season[/quote]
Your saying that Boxhitch gets paid for what he does ???

[325 wsm]

I believe boxhitch is talking about his paycheck at the end of the season


Can't see the forest through the trees sometimes:icon_frow
See where your coming from, but outfitters wouldn't be obliged to sell and any areas bought out would still need managers and guides. If certain areas were run by BCWF and they cut down the number of non-res hunters that would just make it easier for other areas to get their bookings and the law of supply and demand would increase the price of the hunt.

[Ambush]

There really should be no need for residents to buy guide areas as a co-op.
The government buys out commercial fishing licences.
The government bought the Empire Valley for way over it's commercial value.
The government is forcing all BC'ers to fund a big party in Vancouver.

The government should buy out the contentious GO areas when they come up for sale and cancel the licences.

[GoatGuy]

Hell no but if heard it many times. :-DDoes anyone else have a reference that can help me out. :confused:

I'd be interested to read it.

[lange1212]

I would like to know what everyones thoughts are towards the implementation of a 2 week resident only pre-season sheep hunt in the Skeena Region. For or against and please provide your reasoning for your position.

Any other thoughts out there in regards to regulatory reform that would aid sheep harvest allocations to be achieved rather than remain under utilized.

[boxhitch]

Your saying that Boxhitch gets paid for what he does ???[/quote]The pay comes in many forms, as does the work.

[358mag]

The pay comes in many forms, as does the work.[/quote]
U think I can get a job with your outfit ??

[boxhitch]

U think I can get a job with your outfit ??Thought you had a job herding the sheep over from nextdoor ?

[325 wsm]

The government should buy out the contentious GO areas when they come up for sale and cancel the licences.[/QUOTE]

Hopefully they will buy out whatever you do for a living first.

[yukon john]

The government should buy out the contentious GO areas when they come up for sale and cancel the licences.

Hopefully they will buy out whatever you do for a living first.[/quote]


haha right on.... Hopefully they will shut down some oil and gas companies or logging outfits, maybe one day I`ll need more fire wood or some crude oil and as a resident I dont feel prioritized when it comes to our natural resources:-D

[bridger]

Hopefully they will buy out whatever you do for a living first.


haha right on.... Hopefully they will shut down some oil and gas companies or logging outfits, maybe one day I`ll need more fire wood or some crude oil and as a resident I dont feel prioritized when it comes to our natural resources:-D[/quote]

is that because you guiide all fall and don't have to compete with outfitters and non res hunters. as i have said before i support a viable guiding industry, but having some of the more accessbile areas resident only might work. it does in other places.

[GoatGuy]

haha right on.... Hopefully they will shut down some oil and gas companies or logging outfits, maybe one day I`ll need more fire wood or some crude oil and as a resident I dont feel prioritized when it comes to our natural resources:-D

Are you planning on cutting green trees for firewood?

What would you do if you had the rights to oil? Drill for it and refine it?

Right. There's a tax for these kinds of ideas.

[Ambush]

The government should buy out the contentious GO areas when they come up for sale and cancel the licences.

Hopefully they will buy out whatever you do for a living first.[/quote]

Well, since my job doesn't include trying to horde resources from the very people that own them, I don't think it applies.

If you've read any of my posts on this subject, you'd know that I support guiding as a viable and valuable industry in BC. I was suggesting a solution that could work in certain high pressure areas.
Notice I said "buy", not just cancel the licences.

But, perhaps, you would prefer a knock-down, drag-out, winner-take-all fight.

[CanuckShooter]

I would like to know what everyones thoughts are towards the implementation of a 2 week resident only pre-season sheep hunt in the Skeena Region. For or against and please provide your reasoning for your position.

Any other thoughts out there in regards to regulatory reform that would aid sheep harvest allocations to be achieved rather than remain under utilized.

It galls me a bit to keep reading this or that species is being "under utilized"....unless the species is eating itself out of house & home, how could they be under utilized????? If they don't get hunted there will be more animals to hunt next year....unless your using this jargon to justify getting a larger allocation for your guiding territory even using the terminology is giving recognition to the idea that we must harvest to the maximum level possible????

[riflebuilder]

I have never had a negative experince with a GO while hunting sheep. I also have never had a negative experince while hunting Elk, Moose Deer either. In fact I have had GO's give me a lift into town when I blew out two tires with rock cuts 80 km back in the bush.

I do believe that all of us on here are passonate about hunting and being out in the wilderness hunting and fishing. It is a big part of who I am. It is what I love and what I plan to do for the rest of my life.

I am buying a few guide territories in BC and other places around the world and giving everyone the chance to chase their deams at a lot lower cost than the current cost of guided hunts. My business plan is such that BC residents are as important to my sucess as non residents so If you are in an area where we hunt and shoot an animal in the bush my guides if they ride past will help you pack it out. You may want to hunt in africa or New Zealand one day and I would welcome you to hunt with us at any of our territories both in BC and Elsewhere.

I beleive that we as residents of BC have the greatest big game hunting in North America. We can hunt and fish almost every day of the year. We need to work together and stop the BS on bothsides of this issue and work to preserve our passion and heritage.

Just my $0.02

[PGK]

It galls me a bit to keep reading this or that species is being "under utilized"....unless the species is eating itself out of house & home, how could they be under utilized????? If they don't get hunted there will be more animals to hunt next year....unless your using this jargon to justify getting a larger allocation for your guiding territory even using the terminology is giving recognition to the idea that we must harvest to the maximum level possible????

It's called maximum sustainable yield. The ministry determines through a number of ways how many sheep can be killed each season to maintain the population at the current level in perpetuity. In theory.

If the X number designated as how many sheep can be shot out of the population while still maintaining a healthy population is NOT shot in a given year, clearly, there is potential for the population to grow. This is what's called 'under-utilization.' I'm not a fan of the term myself, especially when we start applying it to fisheries, where the theory fails in principle, but insofar as wildlife management, it works. In theory.

I'm not exactly aware of the situation in reg6 other than resident harvest if effectively null due to 1) LEH and 2) poor access, and it looks like the ministry in region 6 is a little crazy :mrgreen:

Is region six being over-utilized by non residents? I've heard GG repeatedly mention that the sheep simply dont exist. Am I then to assume they're being overutilized and excessively predated on? Does he mean mature rams don't exist? Does that mean there's a lack of good summer feed or poor genetics? Bad winters keeping sheep from reaching upper echelon ages? I don't know. Getting straight answers out of these guys is like catching steelhead on the fly. I'm eight days in with bloody hands and I'm just barely figuring it out.

[lange1212]

[quote=riflebuilder;601496]I have never had a negative experince with a GO while hunting sheep. I alos have never had a negative experince while hunting Elk, Moose Deer either. In fact I have had GO's give me a lift into town when I blew out two tires with rock cuts 80 km back in the bush.

Your fortunate! Although All my experiences with Guides, Outfitters and wranglers when encountered has not been unpleasant, some have. I can think of 3 fly in sheep hunts where commercial interests made efforts to curtail, harass and hinder our resident harvest opportunities.

Not all GO's are disrespectfull towards residents but a number of them do exist and are the ones that cause grief and contention amongst the user groups. Why does the GOABC and MoE not police and promote stick penalties for such behavior.

I believe that the implementation of a resident only pre-season sheep hunt will lessen this contention and provide residents (guided or unguided) the opportunity and priority the need and deserve. Most residents can only afford one sheep hunt a year and if they take advantage of a resident only pre-season this would lessen the competition that is currently experienced Aug 1st. Is this not a win win?

[lange1212]

Is region six being over-utilized by non residents? I've heard GG repeatedly mention that the sheep simply dont exist. Am I then to assume they're being overutilized and excessively predated on? Does he mean mature rams don't exist? Does that mean there's a lack of good summer feed or poor genetics? Bad winters keeping sheep from reaching upper echelon ages? I don't know. Getting straight answers out of these guys is like catching steelhead on the fly. I'm eight days in with bloody hands and I'm just barely figuring it out.

Considering MoE stats. reflects that R6 sheep are over allocated in the form of commercial quota. When one adds the total resident and non-resident harvest together it historically has never equated to 50% of the cumulative quota MoE offers GO. Now factor in GO have a 69% success rate while resident have a 15% success rate. The mass majority of harvest occurs in the begining of August and yes resident hunters do out number no residents but are held at a disadvantage against the commercial sector.

3 things need to happen in region 6 with sheep.

1. A full inventory needs to be conducted as was done in Region 7. Inventory work has been progressing but is falling short of what is really needed.

2. GO sheep quotas needs to be closely scrutinized and brought down to realistic numbers. Currently MoE management policy is that as long as a full curl ram restriction exists there's no conservation concern. Unfortunatly this means that currently too many mature rams are harvested by non-residents resulting in lowered resident opportunity.

3. Resident under utilization and reflection of their priority over non-residents can be addressed with the removal of LEH and GOS applied in areas where no conservation concern exists, implement a resident only pre-season sheep hunt, remove GO admin. guidlines where LEH applies and manage regulations to allow harvest objectives to be reached not hindered.

[lange1212]

It galls me a bit to keep reading this or that species is being "under utilized"....unless the species is eating itself out of house & home, how could they be under utilized????? If they don't get hunted there will be more animals to hunt next year....unless your using this jargon to justify getting a larger allocation for your guiding territory even using the terminology is giving recognition to the idea that we must harvest to the maximum level possible????


Under utilization I'm refering to largly falls on the resident side. You ask how can this occur? Simple when the MoE fails to properly monitor and manage the regulatory frame work and places road blocks in the form of unjust restrictions that hinder harvest opportunites is how under utilization occurs.

Under utilization caused by lack of numbers is a conservation concern. Under utilization caused by bogus regulations hindering harvest is totally different.
When MoE establishes allocated numbers they must also provide the regulations allowing them to be achieved.

[GoatGuy]

It's called maximum sustainable yield. The ministry determines through a number of ways how many sheep can be killed each season to maintain the population at the current level in perpetuity. In theory.

If the X number designated as how many sheep can be shot out of the population while still maintaining a healthy population is NOT shot in a given year, clearly, there is potential for the population to grow. This is what's called 'under-utilization.' I'm not a fan of the term myself, especially when we start applying it to fisheries, where the theory fails in principle, but insofar as wildlife management, it works. In theory.

I'm not exactly aware of the situation in reg6 other than resident harvest if effectively null due to 1) LEH and 2) poor access, and it looks like the ministry in region 6 is a little crazy :mrgreen:

Is region six being over-utilized by non residents? I've heard GG repeatedly mention that the sheep simply dont exist. Am I then to assume they're being overutilized and excessively predated on? Does he mean mature rams don't exist? Does that mean there's a lack of good summer feed or poor genetics? Bad winters keeping sheep from reaching upper echelon ages? I don't know. Getting straight answers out of these guys is like catching steelhead on the fly. I'm eight days in with bloody hands and I'm just barely figuring it out.

The harvest rates aren't close to MSY with any wildlife.

LEH is a killer in the LEH mu's resident don't harvest any sheep and the MoE will not release enough LEH auth for resident to harvest them. You'll find areas where outfitters have shot 15-20 sheep in the last 10 years and residents have harvested 1 or 2.

Access is poor in a couple areas. Generally residents and outfitters compete in the high access areas at the beginning of the season. There are a few good sheep lakes but getting a flight into them can be difficult.

The sheep aren't necessarily being 'over-utilized' because the outfitters in 6 for the most part harvest 8+, the odd 40" 7 yr old gets shot but generally most of the old timers are pretty good. 8+ is considered compensatory when it comes to sheep and they only harvest 50% of their quota. To be very honest, most of the outfitters manage their areas very well in Region 6. The problem is there are very few 8+ sheep left after the first couple of weeks in August that are left for resident hunters to hunt. Outfitters will book and harvest the majority in early august particularly in high access areas and then move back. Generally, they shoot what they feel is sustainable. If you're out in August you've got a chance but if you're hunting in September it's generally pretty slim pickings. This has been going on since there were sheep hunters in that part of the world since quota and the full curl reg was introduced.

Once we get over the conservation issue the reason for quota is so there's some left for residents - it's really that simple. It's the exact same in Region 4 where the quotas are inflated, but there the outfitters seem to be whackin' and stackin' the 6 yr olds now.:-? When the outfitters are shooting 8+ we don't need to worry about conservation, it's a matter of having some sheep left over for residents.

Steelhead fishing's easy if you know what you're doing.:wink:

[lange1212]

[quote=GoatGuy;601571]The harvest rates aren't close to MSY with any wildlife.

LEH is a killer in the LEH mu's resident don't harvest any sheep and the MoE will not release enough LEH auth for resident to harvest them. You'll find areas where outfitters have shot 15-20 sheep in the last 10 years and residents have harvested 1 or 2.

For example in 6-25C residents are on LEH and over the past 13 years harvested zero rams, thats right zero whereas the GO harvest 25 rams out the area over the same time frame.

In light of this data and some heavy lobbying at the Regional level it looks like the areas is going to GOS. But am bewildered how such statistics slips by MoE for 13 years and when identified its the resident hunter that brings it to their attention.

[bridger]

things like that go unnoticed because beaurcrats like the status quo and if no one rocks the boat chances of the situation changing are slim. In addition the goabc has done a better job of lobbying the past few years than has the bcwf. it is time for that to change and as a result the resident priority fund was created. www.residentpriority.ca (http://www.residentpriority.ca) if you haven't already take a look.

[6616]

It's called maximum sustainable yield.

Kris, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any K-Selected ungulate species are or ever will be, nor would anyone recommend that they be managed for a MSY harvest. That type of management would be extremely risky for other then R-Selected species like deer and elk.

[BCbillies]

Been a good thread and should produce a few letters forwarded to MoE! The early season resident hunt may encourage more hunters to actually focus on sheep rather than typically go for the mixed bag hunts. Unless you are a seasoned sheep hunter and have your sheep areas, many guys head up in September and put in some effort for sheep but perhaps not nearly the effort in the case of a single tag in hand. For the $60 hunters will purchase the sheep tag for the "just in case" but often will take an elk or caribou early on and the sheep hunt ends. While the mixed bag hunter may fill out his hunter questionaire stating 10 days in the field hunting sheep, the level of effort/days in the field is divided between two or three species. The situation is somewhat different for the non-resident where it doesn't matter so much what is harvested the hunt continues as the work is done by others.

The two week early season may encourage more residents to pursue sheep knowing competition is reduced, they can be home for August, spend time with the family and then make another trip north in September.

Let's give it a try for a few years and see what the stats say. :-D The early season would be a good start in giving residents priority.

[PGK]

Kris, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any K-Selected ungulate species are or ever will be, nor would anyone recommend that they be managed for a MSY harvest. That type of management would be extremely risky for other then R-Selected species like deer and elk.

That makes sense to me too, but that's not what I see on paper. Msy is easy, so it's used, seems like to me. If we're talking about under or over utilization, we're talking about msy, are we not?

GG, looks like we're stuck between a rock and a hard place in region 6. Let's try to remember that at the end of the day, the sheep doesn't care who killed it, it just knows it's dead. As long as it stays compensatory, there's room to rework the other issues. I would suggest that based on my limited experience, opening it up to greater resident harvest would increase the number of younger rams being shot, pushing the additive envelope and potentially causing some problems?

Steelhead fishing is easy with guts, not so easy with feathers, you heathen.

[Everett]

[quote=GoatGuy;601571]The harvest rates aren't close to MSY with any wildlife.

LEH is a killer in the LEH mu's resident don't harvest any sheep and the MoE will not release enough LEH auth for resident to harvest them. You'll find areas where outfitters have shot 15-20 sheep in the last 10 years and residents have harvested 1 or 2.

For example in 6-25C residents are on LEH and over the past 13 years harvested zero rams, thats right zero whereas the GO harvest 25 rams out the area over the same time frame.

In light of this data and some heavy lobbying at the Regional level it looks like the areas is going to GOS. But am bewildered how such statistics slips by MoE for 13 years and when identified its the resident hunter that brings it to their attention.




How do they miss it for 13 years simple the Bios in region 6 are on the take a blind man could see it. Just like they were in region 4 for years.

[6616]

That makes sense to me too, but that's not what I see on paper. Msy is easy, so it's used, seems like to me. If we're talking about under or over utilization, we're talking about msy, are we not?

Actually on this site anyway, when we talk about under or over utilization I think we're usually referring to the allocation shares.

Sheep harvest varies from between 1.5 to 2.5 % of population estimates, goats from 3.5 to 4.5 %, I think those are pretty conservative and not near what might be considered MSY harvest levels. Considering that K-Selected species are density dependent I don't think the MSY theory of harvest is really applicable, there really is no harvestable surplus of females, and I believe the MSY theory as it applies to elk and deer includes a significant female harvest.

I prefer to think there is a buffer involved, even with deer and elk, and would actually call it Optimum Sustainable Harvest, true MSY leaves no room for error unless ones objective is to lower the population of a particular herd.

[Deadshot]

Been a good thread and should produce a few letters forwarded to MoE! The early season resident hunt may encourage more hunters to actually focus on sheep rather than typically go for the mixed bag hunts. Unless you are a seasoned sheep hunter and have your sheep areas, many guys head up in September and put in some effort for sheep but perhaps not nearly the effort in the case of a single tag in hand. For the $60 hunters will purchase the sheep tag for the "just in case" but often will take an elk or caribou early on and the sheep hunt ends. While the mixed bag hunter may fill out his hunter questionaire stating 10 days in the field hunting sheep, the level of effort/days in the field is divided between two or three species. The situation is somewhat different for the non-resident where it doesn't matter so much what is harvested the hunt continues as the work is done by others.

The two week early season may encourage more residents to pursue sheep knowing competition is reduced, they can be home for August, spend time with the family and then make another trip north in September.

Let's give it a try for a few years and see what the stats say. :-D The early season would be a good start in giving residents priority.

Amen!
Done the "just in case" tag for a few years also & know quite a few guys still doing it in R6 where we hunt.
This year will be the first in 5 years I miss the opener because the kids are getting older & Aug long is THE wknd of the year.
A mid-July opener would solve that problem & give, as said, a little more time before the biggy in Sept.
Count me in.

[325 wsm]

QUOTE FROM AMBUSH

If you've read any of my posts on this subject, you'd know that I support guiding as a viable and valuable industry in BC. I was suggesting a solution that could work in certain high pressure areas.
Notice I said "buy", not just cancel the licences.

But, perhaps, you would prefer a knock-down, drag-out, winner-take-all fight.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I jumped the gun on you a little bit but when you talk about cancelling GO licenses (bought out or not) you are talking about cancelling a renewable resource that I use to feed my family. I think theres a better solution and some good suggestions have been coming up in this thread.

[PGK]

Actually on this site anyway, when we talk about under or over utilization I think we're usually referring to the allocation shares.

Sheep harvest varies from between 1.5 to 2.5 % of population estimates, goats from 3.5 to 4.5 %, I think those are pretty conservative and not near what might be considered MSY harvest levels. Considering that K-Selected species are density dependent I don't think the MSY theory of harvest is really applicable, there really is no harvestable surplus of females, and I believe the MSY theory as it applies to elk and deer includes a significant female harvest.

I prefer to think there is a buffer involved, even with deer and elk, and would actually call it Optimum Sustainable Harvest, true MSY leaves no room for error unless ones objective is to lower the population of a particular herd.

I don't really think MSY works anywhere but in theory, and I guess if we're talking about under utilization of allocated LEH (and not physical animals on the ground), that might be where some of the confuddlement is :mrgreen: True to the letter MSY definitely leaves no room for error, but as I understand it, you're supposed to set to either side of 'true' MSY depending on management objectives. In practice, it probably deteriorates to a more general knowledge of whats worked and what hasn't. I don't have enough first-hand knowledge to really say. In the case of region 6 sheep, I think the ministry has gotten lazy, and needs a swift kick in the ass to reboot their program instead of worrying about who is going to take the hockey trophy this year. But then again, the further one is from hongcouver, the less funding one gets. So someone tell me where the solution lies?

OSY is theoretically what is used to manage fish stocks (I think), and I'm more confused about the stats that go into that one than I ever have been about anything relating to wildlife management. Scary news :mrgreen:

[6616]

I don't really think MSY works anywhere but in theory, and I guess if we're talking about under utilization of allocated LEH (and not physical animals on the ground), that might be where some of the confuddlement is :mrgreen: True to the letter MSY definitely leaves no room for error, but as I understand it, you're supposed to set to either side of 'true' MSY depending on management objectives. In practice, it probably deteriorates to a more general knowledge of whats worked and what hasn't. I don't have enough first-hand knowledge to really say. In the case of region 6 sheep, I think the ministry has gotten lazy, and needs a swift kick in the ass to reboot their program instead of worrying about who is going to take the hockey trophy this year. But then again, the further one is from hongcouver, the less funding one gets. So someone tell me where the solution lies?

OSY is theoretically what is used to manage fish stocks (I think), and I'm more confused about the stats that go into that one than I ever have been about anything relating to wildlife management. Scary news :mrgreen:

In theory, I think MSY/OSY has a better chance of working with R-Selected ungulates then it does with fish. It is synomomous with fish management, but that's only because it's really only been tried with fish, and it's appeared to have been a disaster in that application.

The only hope for it to ever work is to have very accurate inventory, reproductive, and natural mortality data. At least you can count deer. FOC didn't seem to do a very good job of assembling accurate data on the east coast cod fishery...!!!!

[PGK]

It fails in principle based on the very nature of fish reproduction. They're on a type III survivorship curve. You can't predict any type of adult reproductive success or even adult reproductive participation when you don't know how many die before reaching maturity, or where they hell they are for three years. You'd think after a decade or so of failed estimates someone would figure that out! But I digress. I'm glad this got bumped, reg6 has always confused me a little.

[GoatGuy]

That makes sense to me too, but that's not what I see on paper. Msy is easy, so it's used, seems like to me. If we're talking about under or over utilization, we're talking about msy, are we not?

GG, looks like we're stuck between a rock and a hard place in region 6. Let's try to remember that at the end of the day, the sheep doesn't care who killed it, it just knows it's dead. As long as it stays compensatory, there's room to rework the other issues. I would suggest that based on my limited experience, opening it up to greater resident harvest would increase the number of younger rams being shot, pushing the additive envelope and potentially causing some problems?

Steelhead fishing is easy with guts, not so easy with feathers, you heathen.

Over and under utilization is based on the allocated harvest which is based on conservative harvest rates (ie, 3% in sheep). We use 5% harves rate for antlerless deer and that isn't even in the ballpark if we're going to deal with MSY which for wt is ~30-40% of K and to be very honest the harvest rate is probably closer to 2%.

I don't' think you'll end up with more additive mortality, particularly to the point where it becomes a problem. The full curl 8 yr rule is close to fail-safe. If it becomes a problem the 1 in 3 rule is a proven remedy.

The issue is with the harvest that's out there. I don't see it as a personal issue wrapped up in all the conjecture, it's an issue of policy and procedure which is already written. Personally I wouldn't benefit from any of this because I generally don't hunt sheep in August - I don't like bugs, had enough of them when I used to fly up north. We've got an allocation policy, it dictates the splits and how those splits are achieved.

If it isn't followed we'll end up with the same issues that we've had since the 70s. Just look at 7B; it was allocated 77/23 in favour of guide-outfitters 5 short years ago. In the past 5 years that allocation and harvest has already moved to 50/50 through quota cutbacks and conservative regulatory reform. That will be around 70/30 by 2012.

I've fished 'bait' on the thompson, only cause hucking a fly isn't much fun when it's -15. If it has to be strictly feathers, then I'm guilty at times. Foam body dries don't fit that criteria. :wink:

[PGK]

I had an 8lb dime doe chase a bulkley mouse for six feet on the Yak 2 weeks ago. Apparently, I don't exhibit much muscle control in that kind of situation :lol: Should have greaselined the sucker.

I see it the same way, which is why msy is a great theory and not a great practice. Especially with sheep. Full curl is close to fail safe, I agree, but we both know there's no shortage of age 6 and 7 full curls running around out there.
I guess we just wait it out. The trend in all commercial interests across western north america lately is to a tighter grip on harvest and a slow culling of commercial operators. The GO's are no different. There will probably be some back and forth, but I don't see great problems in the future, given the way things have been going in the last few years.

[GoatGuy]

I had an 8lb dime doe chase a bulkley mouse for six feet on the Yak 2 weeks ago. Apparently, I don't exhibit much muscle control in that kind of situation :lol: Should have greaselined the sucker.

I see it the same way, which is why msy is a great theory and not a great practice. Especially with sheep. Full curl is close to fail safe, I agree, but we both know there's no shortage of age 6 and 7 full curls running around out there.
I guess we just wait it out. The trend in all commercial interests across western north america lately is to a tighter grip on harvest and a slow culling of commercial operators. The GO's are no different. There will probably be some back and forth, but I don't see great problems in the future, given the way things have been going in the last few years.

Hold your rod by your side with one hand. It works.