stone sheep harvest stats region 7b 2009

[bridger]

STONE SHEEP HARVEST 7B 2009

Don't have the age structure of the harvest this fall yet but should have in a day or so. Just thought the sheep hunters might be interested in the harvest stats.

total harvest 185

Residents 98
non res 87

% of total

Res 54%
non res 46%

[mfarrally]

wow that seems like alot to me. Is that a fairly average number for the last few years?

[BCrams]

Some more to go regarding allocation splits between resi's and non-residents for 7b.

Region 6 is a mess.

[RMK]

this hardly seems fair to the residents especially with the pressure of losing some of our rights

[bruin]

I'm sure I'll get dragged over the coals for saying this but, isn't most of 7b a GOS for stones? Doesn't that mean that any resi that wants to can go out and chase stone sheep?

[358mag]

nice to see what the age structure
my guess is GO 8-9 year harvest
Res 6-7 year havest
load up the popcorn machine and crack a cold beer its time !!!

[bruin]

load up the popcorn machine and crack a cold beer its time !!!........:mrgreen:

I agree, it would be nice to see the age averages.

[rifleman]

thats more than I thought would be killed in one season. I hope the sheep population can sustain itself. I'd hate to see sheep depleted anywhere.

[bridger]

to answer some general questions 1) the total harvest is about the same as the last few years. the target harvest is 180 so a number reasonably close satisfy's the regional bio. 2) yes 7b is gos- non residents are on quota. present quota is a total of 102 3) the overall average age of the harvest should be ok with the majority of rams over 8, although age is no longer a management criteria. more under 8 year old rams on the resident side for sure. lots of reasons for that, but young rams are now showing up on the nonresident side now that age no longer matters but i would guess at least 80% non res will be 8+. hope to have the age structure in the next few days and will post.

[boxhitch]

Good info, thanks
good answers to the questons too.
2012 will see a correction in n/r quotas, if things go the way they should.
Residents have no excuse for not achieving quotas.

[boxhitch]

your post is too calm to stir things up, no popcorn date unless you really tell us whats on your mind.

nice to see what the age structure
my guess is GO 8-9 year harvest
Res 6-7 year havest
load up the popcorn machine and crack a cold beer its time !!!

[BCbillies]

Region 6 is a mess.

Just give us the two week head start (July 15 to 31) and we will put forth our best effort to increase the success rates! I don't even mind if the guides are permitted to take resident hunters out during the early season. :wink: Something has to change . . . time to remove some roadblocks to even things up!!! GOS in the parks would help. Would love to head into Edziza one day with a couple of tags. :-D

Can someone post the updated Region 6 sheep stats?

[Kitimat Killer]

Just give us the two week head start (July 15 to 31) and we will put forth our best effort to increase the success rates! I don't even mind if the guides are permitted to take resident hunters out during the early season. :wink: Something has to change . . . time to remove some roadblocks to even things up!!! GOS in the parks would help. Would love to head into Edziza one day with a couple of tags. :-D

Can someone post the updated Region 6 sheep stats?

im with you on that one bcbillies i would love to head in that park or spats with out an leh, i just sat down with an older fellow he shot 7 rams all out of spatz, so we started talking and i was asking alot of questions and he was anwsering but when it came down to showing me on a map the area he is in well guess what it's the closed area in the park for all hunting and from what head said that 70% of the sheep are in that area just south east of the lake wish i could head in those ranges and harvest a ram but will never happen i know that
just my two bits

kk

[bridger]

Just give us the two week head start (July 15 to 31) and we will put forth our best effort to increase the success rates! I don't even mind if the guides are permitted to take resident hunters out during the early season. :wink: Something has to change . . . time to remove some roadblocks to even things up!!! GOS in the parks would help. Would love to head into Edziza one day with a couple of tags. :-D

Can someone post the updated Region 6 sheep stats?


hope to have them in the next couple of days

[bridger]

as far as a gos in the parks that is probably not going to happen. what the bcwf is working on is to increase the tags on the leh. as it is now the number of tags is artificially low. the other thing that is wrong is that the guides are given sheep and we are given tags. here is the subtle difference. if an outfitter has say a quota of 8 he can take as many hunters as necessary to harvest those eight rams, so he may take 10-12-? hunters to acheive that harvest level. as residents we get 8 tags which means only 8 residents can go period!!!! that is the main reason resident success is so low in the spat and the outfitter success 100% as far as a two week head start on the season goes we are working on that as well for the entirety of region 6. it would certainly help if all sheep hunters that would like that to happen wrote a letter or email to the moe in victoria.

[Devilbear]

I am totally opposed to ANY "non-resident alien" hunting for ANY species in BC Provincial Parks and always have been. This should be BANNED forthwith and a short and strictly regulated GOS for BC residents ONLY instituted.

I think that a "non-resident alien" TOTAL harvest of TEN sheep per year is the most we should allow and I really do not give a ratz azz about fat Yankees and their "dreams" about a "Grand Slam".

I will be writing to the appropriate people to advocate this and will continue to do so. BC parks are for BC people, NOT the often foreign-owned GOs to profit from.

[riflebuilder]

I am all for GOS for residents were sustainable. I also believe that an outfitter should not be able to book more hunters than he has quota for. I know this is a common practice where harvest sucess is lower and the otfitter can take more clients for the big dollar hunts. I feel if I have a quota for 3 rams a year all I am going to book is three hunters it shouldn't be any different than the way LEH is handled. Just my $0.02

[Prowler]

I am totally opposed to ANY "non-resident alien" hunting for ANY species in BC Provincial Parks and always have been. This should be BANNED forthwith and a short and strictly regulated GOS for BC residents ONLY instituted.

I think that a "non-resident alien" TOTAL harvest of TEN sheep per year is the most we should allow and I really do not give a ratz azz about fat Yankees and their "dreams" about a "Grand Slam".

I will be writing to the appropriate people to advocate this and will continue to do so. BC parks are for BC people, NOT the often foreign-owned GOs to profit from.

Devil Bear for Minister of enviroment!!:-D
Sounds like a sound plan to me....

[boxhitch]

....as far as a two week head start on the season goes we are working on that as well for the entirety of region 6. it would certainly help if all sheep hunters that would like that to happen wrote a letter or email to the moe in victoria.Would be good to have testimonials from those that have had hunts impacted by having to compete with G/O's on August 1st. Not sure if the MOE believes this to be a hurdle to residents.

There seem to be lots of sheep available in reg. 6, so anything to assist BC'ers would be good.
Better access info, population maps, all would help.
Maybe Jelvis can dredge up something..........

[325 wsm]

I believe most outfitters are alloted a quota over a 5 year period and most of them will try to book a few more hunters than they have tags for because they know some of their clients will go home unsuccessful. Under the same principle more LEH's should be allotted in order to compensate for unsuccesful resident hunters.You need a 2 week archery only resident only season from July 15 to 31.
Here in the Yukon there are 2 tags given out each year for Kluane Park. 1 is auctioned off at FNAWS and the other is a LEH for residents only. It's not to bad of a deal other than the auctioned tag holder gets to hunt 2 weeks before the LEH tag holder.

[bridger]

a two week archery season in region 6 would not increase the resident share of the harvest. we need a two week rifle season in order to allow residents to not be forced to compete with professional hunters that have the area scouted out well before opening day. point of interest only why does the auction tag holder get to hunt first in the kluane?

[325 wsm]

Bridger I'm sure a few sheep would be taken but most importantly it would increase hunting opportunities for residents. As far as the auction tag holder going first I think it has to do with the fact the auctioned tag results will get much more publicity in the sheep hunting world which in turn will make the tag worth more if the sheep is bigger. Does that make sense? The money from the auction is spent by the local first nations on wildlife enhancement projects so they want the tag to go for as much as possible.

[bridger]

a two week early season open to all the various disciplines that make up the resident hunting world would 1) give residents a better harvest opportunity overall and 2) increase hunting opportunities. region 6 is an area that poses access problems and the accessible areas are a point of controversy-- the tag is the kluane appears to make sense although not being familiar with the situation in the yukon I am not sure how the hunt unfolds and don't want to comment in detail on circumstances with which I am unfamiliar.

[325 wsm]

Of course rifle hunters will have a higher success rate but the chances of getting an LEH will be 10 times lower as the number of permits offered will be 10 times less than what could be given to archers. Maybe archery only in the accesible areas and any discipline in the harder to access areas.
Just throwing out ideas....

[Kody94]

Speaking strictly of Reg 7B:

If the target is 180 rams, it isn't resident underharvest that is the problem.

When do outfitter quotas drop to ensure we stay at or under 180 rams per year and a more reasonable split between res:non-res?

If the outfitters weren't shooting so many rams, would success rates for residents improve to take up the slack? I think so.

[BCrams]

Would be good to have testimonials from those that have had hunts impacted by having to compete with G/O's on August 1st. Not sure if the MOE believes this to be a hurdle to residents.

There seem to be lots of sheep available in reg. 6, so anything to assist BC'ers would be good.
Better access info, population maps, all would help.
Maybe Jelvis can dredge up something..........

I (and partners) have definatly been impacted competing with GO's during the opener.

[325 wsm]

4ster I agree with you completly and if the GO's had a smaller quota the law of supply and demand would drive up the price of the nonresident hunts. This means the outfitter wouldn't have to book as many hunters or take as many sheep to make the same amount of money.The only downside which is pretty minor is that there would be less oportunity for guides to earn a living.

[BCrams]

You need a 2 week archery only resident only season from July 15 to 31.


Wong. We need a 2 week rifle season for residents.

Bridger, I also believe the headstart should also occur for region 7B without a doubt in my mind.

Access is a contentious issue in Region 6. Its going to get worse for residents if no one replaces Bruce McNaughton in Dease.

[Gunner]

Wong. We need a 2 week rifle season for residents.

Bridger, I also believe the headstart should also occur for region 7B without a doubt in my mind.

Access is a contentious issue in Region 6. Its going to get worse for residents if no one replaces Bruce McNaughton in Dease.Has Bruce packed it in?If so I hope it wasn't due to FN pressure,although Bruce cetrainly doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would knuckle under to anyone!If he has quit flying out of Dease it is a sad day for Resident hunters. Gunner

[BCrams]

If the outfitters weren't shooting so many rams, would success rates for residents improve to take up the slack? I think so.

I believe so. Because of a guide outfitters knowledge of the territory and where to take rams and where the ram herds are, a reduction in the GO quota to meet the resident / GO split, would imo be also beneficial for the GO because those one to 2 rams per year reduction of 8/9 year old rams that otherwise would have been harvested by them will now have a chance to be 10-11 yr old rams. Chances are the GO will be the one to harvest those rams anyways so in some ways, they benefit with a higher quality pool of older rams to choose from.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Along with a 2 weeks resident headstart, I think we need to push for a severe punishement(ie forfeit of their territory or loss of tags) for any GO caught interferring with anyone's hunt(lots of video cameras out there). GO's on the level would have nothing to worry about but the crooked ones may have to re-think their actions. Of course this would have to be proven (which may be very difficult) but it might make them think twice.

SSS

[325 wsm]

Good idea SSS but that works both ways. Not all residents are saints and I'm sure some would be more than happy to ruin a non-residents attempts in the same way.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Good idea SSS but that works both ways. Not all residents are saints and I'm sure some would be more than happy to ruin a non-residents attempts in the same way.

I'm all for that too. Same rules for everyone.

SSS

[BCbillies]

Along with a 2 weeks resident headstart, I think we need to push for a severe punishement(ie forfeit of their territory or loss of tags) for any GO caught interferring with anyone's hunt(lots of video cameras out there). GO's on the level would have nothing to worry about but the crooked ones may have to re-think their actions. Of course this would have to be proven (which may be very difficult) but it might make them think twice.

SSS

x2. One of many reasons why I bring the video camera and sat phone on a sheep hunt. I try my darnest to avoid conflict but if you sheep hunt enough in certain areas you will eventually see a thing or two!!!

[325 wsm]

Seems to me the penalties for breaking the law should apply to everyone equally with no regard to occupation and should be levied out to the actual perpetraitor. If the outfitter was to loose an area or quota numbers then how would it work if a res was the perpatraitor. Would all residents loose quota numbers or the right to hunt in that area because 1 resident broke the law? I would hope not.

[Kody94]

Seems to me the penalties for breaking the law should apply to everyone equally with no regard to occupation and should be levied out to the actual perpetraitor. If the outfitter was to loose an area or quota numbers then how would it work if a res was the perpatraitor. Would all residents loose quota numbers or the right to hunt in that area because 1 resident broke the law? I would hope not.

I would think that if a resident hunter was caught interfering with someone else's hunt (outfitter or another resident), it would be fair for a penalty to consider loss of hunting priveleges for a time.

Same should work with the outfitter....loss of hunting priveleges in their case would include their business (outfitting licence) for a period of time.

It would not make sense for a resident hunter's actions to penalize all other residents however.

JMHO

[325 wsm]

I agree with you but also don't feel an outfitter should be penalized for something 1 of their guides may have done. If it is the outfitter.....burn him at the stake...if it's the guide or a res .....burn them at the stake

[GoatGuy]

Be interesting to see age.

Commercial hunting's the only profession I'm aware of where the professionals are treated like amateurs. Don't know why.

[GoatGuy]

I agree with you but also don't feel an outfitter should be penalized for something 1 of their guides may have done. If it is the outfitter.....burn him at the stake...if it's the guide or a res .....burn them at the stake

Outfitters are business owners; they are supposed to be considered professionals as are their assistant guides. Employers are generally ultimately responsible for their employees. If one of your employees screws up liability is joint and several which means the person with the deep pockets pays the bill. That person is the owner (corp).

There is a different test for professionals in law; part of wearing the shiny shoes and having the designation.

[325 wsm]

Good point....Also I don't ever here anyone bitching about how much money greedy Canadian hockey players make from the Americans when they go south of the border.
I know....way off topic..just a rant...

[Gateholio]

I agree with you but also don't feel an outfitter should be penalized for something 1 of their guides may have done. If it is the outfitter.....burn him at the stake...if it's the guide or a res .....burn them at the stake

I think that the outfitter should be responsible for the actions of his/her employees. From what I understand, the good outfitters are very involved and specific about the "rules of operation" for their guides.

[325 wsm]

Individuals may make choices in the field at thier own discretion regardless of the outfitters desires. I agree with you if it could be proven the outfitter provoked or supported the illegal action.

[Gateholio]

Individuals may make choices in the field at thier own discretion regardless of the outfitters desires. I agree with you if it could be proven the outfitter provoked or supported the illegal action.

I guess anything is possible.

Still, businesses get sued all the time due to actions of an employee. I don't see why this would be any different.

It's definitely in the best interest of any employer to make sure employees know the boundaries in which they must operate, as well as learn as much as possible about the character and background of their employees.

[GoatGuy]

Gatehouse,

Why don't you explain what happens if a server serves too much to drink, the person drives away and kills somebody?

Who is responsible?

[325 wsm]

Goatguy....yes the employer....simple way around that in the guiding industry....GO's would stop hiring employee's and contract everything out. The guide would then be the contractor, employer and employee who made the decision would he not.

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy....yes the employer....simple way around that in the guiding industry....GO's would stop hiring employee's and contract everything out. The guide would then be the contractor, employer and employee who made the decision would he not.

That's a bit trickier, but yes the contractee can still be held liable. Contactors already occurs in guiding as well but I doubt most outfitters make sure contractors have WCB or 3rd party which also makes the outfitter liable in terms of insurance.

In any case at this point none of it matters because outfitters are not treated as professionals when it comes to law.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

How about a "strike system"?? Gives a little room for a rogue employee to act against the owner's rules.

Bottom line is "yes" it's illegal to interfere with a legal hunt but I would like to see it, along with thee punishment right in the regulations for ALL to see and remember
Law abiders need not worry.

SSS

[Gateholio]

Gatehouse,

Why don't you explain what happens if a server serves too much to drink, the person drives away and kills somebody?

Who is responsible?

The business will definitely take most of the blame. Even if the owner/manager wasn't present.

Of course the drunk patron will get nailed as well.

Victims and their families will defiantly sue the business and the drunk driver, and courts have assessed blame for the business at anywhere from 15% to 50 %

[BCrams]

I agree with you but also don't feel an outfitter should be penalized for something 1 of their guides may have done. If it is the outfitter.....burn him at the stake...if it's the guide or a res .....burn them at the stake

Wrong. The outfitter (employer) is liable and responsible for the conduct of their employees while guiding.

[Gunner]

Wrong. The outfitter (employer) is liable and responsible for the conduct of their employees while guiding.That's how it should be. Gunner

[Kody94]

On anything that serious, the Outfitter would likely have the opportunity for a due diligence defence. If he did nothing to control his rogue employee, or did anything to facilitate it, he'd be in as much or more trouble than the employee. If he had done everything reasonable to ensure the employee did not do whatever it was that caused the infraction, then he'd probably get off without a sanction against his business.

[BCrams]

On anything that serious, the Outfitter would likely have the opportunity for a due diligence defence. If he did nothing to control his rogue employee, or did anything to facilitate it, he'd be in as much or more trouble than the employee. If he had done everything reasonable to ensure the employee did not do whatever it was that caused the infraction, then he'd probably get off without a sanction against his business.

Turn a blind eye and pretend and he will be safe :wink:

[Maxx]

Wong. We need a 2 week rifle season for residents.

Bridger, I also believe the headstart should also occur for region 7B without a doubt in my mind.

Access is a contentious issue in Region 6. Its going to get worse for residents if no one replaces Bruce McNaughton in Dease.


did bruce close down?

[BCrams]

did bruce close down?

Not that I am aware of. However, it would be a good idea to have someone in place prior to when he does retire.

Heard he was trying to sell a couple years ago.

[Maxx]

Not that I am aware of. However, it would be a good idea to have someone in place prior to when he does retire.

Heard he was trying to sell a couple years ago.


I thought that keith conners bought a beaver,put in a dock at dease and will also be taking residents?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I thought that keith conners bought a beaver,put in a dock at dease and will also be taking residents?


I don't think that the only option residents want to have:-?.

SSS

[Maxx]

I don't think that the only option residents want to have:-?.

SSS


there are always other options:wink:

I didn't mean to get this thread off track, back to the harvest stats...... Thanks for posting this Bridger, it will be interesting to see region 6. As for the 2 week headstart, I think that is a good solution for all parties, otherwise what is the solution- to cut the GO's permit numbers even more?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

there are always other options:wink:

I didn't mean to get this thread off track, back to the harvest stats...... Thanks for posting this Bridger, it will be interesting to see region 6. As for the 2 week headstart, I think that is a good solution for all parties, otherwise what is the solution- to cut the GO's permit numbers even more?

I like the 2week headstart idea as well ....but would prefer to leave the resident starting date the same for the entire north. Would make vacation planning easier.
Aug 1 for residents and Aug 14th or 15 th for non-residents?

SSS

[Maxx]

I like the 2week headstart idea as well ....but would prefer to leave the resident starting date the same for the entire north. Would make vacation planning easier.
Aug 1 for residents and Aug 14th or 15 th for non-residents?

SSS

Sounds good to me, but you know that the GO's are going to say they lost 2 weeks at the start of the season, so they should get 2 weeks at the end. I don't think letting them hunt into late october is a good idea.

if residents start in july ( like nwt), then the GO's are losing nothing but some rams....


What are the chances of this 2 week headstart actually happening? Is this just a pipe dream? Other than cutting more quoata from the GO's, is there another solution to get the allocation numbers in line?

[GoatGuy]

I thought that keith conners bought a beaver,put in a dock at dease and will also be taking residents?

He teamed up with the Tahltan to get that OC and space. How that all shakes out with the other blockade issues is an unknown.

[GoatGuy]

Sounds good to me, but you know that the GO's are going to say they lost 2 weeks at the start of the season, so they should get 2 weeks at the end. I don't think letting them hunt into late october is a good idea.

if residents start in july ( like nwt), then the GO's are losing nothing but some rams....


What are the chances of this 2 week headstart actually happening? Is this just a pipe dream? Other than cutting more quoata from the GO's, is there another solution to get the allocation numbers in line?


Minimum splits are 60/40 in 2012 in favour of residents.
Only way to acheive that is cut quota way back. Resident only season is a natural progression and one possible solution to try before the quotas get cut back.

In Region 6 the sheep that have been assigned to quota simply don't exist.

[boxhitch]

I (and partners) have definatly been impacted competing with GO's during the opener.That is the kind of input needed. Dates, locations etc

If BCers are effected in the small pocket populations available to them, that adds weight to the idea of a special opening. A head-start in the foot race.

But for the number of sheep available, the hunter effort is low. An earlier season won't bring more hunters.
Something should be done toward spreading out the effort, instead of the two user groups meeting on the same slopes.

[boxhitch]

......... As for the 2 week headstart, I think that is a good solution for all parties, otherwise what is the solution- to cut the GO's permit numbers even more?The percentage split isn't the problem. Resident effort isn't sufficient to achieve the number available.
If the inventory numbers are to be believed, there are lots of sheep available.

[Maxx]

The percentage split isn't the problem. Resident effort isn't sufficient to achieve the number available.
If the inventory numbers are to be believed, there are lots of sheep available.


so what are you really saying? That there are not enough residents that want to hunt stones, so the allocation of 60/40 is incorrect and that the GO's should be allowed to take a higher percentage of the sheep, because the "herds" are healthy and they won't get killed by residents?

[bridger]

The percentage split isn't the problem. Resident effort isn't sufficient to achieve the number available.
If the inventory numbers are to be believed, there are lots of sheep available.

not exactely accurate

[Kody94]

Q for those with the stats....what are the resident hunter success rates for stone sheep in Reg 6 and 7?

[HD95]

Has Bruce packed it in?If so I hope it wasn't due to FN pressure,although Bruce cetrainly doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would knuckle under to anyone!If he has quit flying out of Dease it is a sad day for Resident hunters. Gunner
Not to worry,Bruce is still flying..

[BCrams]

That is the kind of input needed. Dates, locations etc

If BCers are effected in the small pocket populations available to them, that adds weight to the idea of a special opening. A head-start in the foot race.

But for the number of sheep available, the hunter effort is low. An earlier season won't bring more hunters.
Something should be done toward spreading out the effort, instead of the two user groups meeting on the same slopes.


I believe if an earlier opening occurs, it should be across the board for both regions.

Now 'education' is what I am a firm believer of!!

The earlier opening may not bring more hunters (yet I think it will bring a few more) but it will definatly increase the success for those resident groups. There will be rams that otherwise would have been taken in the opening week of August by outfitters that a resident now will have the opportunity to find and harvest first during an earlier opening. First crack at them so to speak.

[bridger]

Q for those with the stats....what are the resident hunter success rates for stone sheep in Reg 6 and 7?

don't have the exact stats but do know that it is less than 50% in both regions. region 7b outfitters fill 70-80% of quota but I don't know how many hunters they take. last stats are few years old but that year 270 non resident sheep tags were sold for 7b for a quota of 137

[bridger]

an early opening in both regions would be ideal for sure. region 6 has a lot less access than 7b making it difficult for residents to compete in the few accessible areas with guided hunters. the early season as mentioned will alieviate the problem. the decision should be soon.

[boxhitch]

so what are you really saying? That there are not enough residents that want to hunt stones, so the allocation of 60/40 is incorrect and that the GO's should be allowed to take a higher percentage of the sheep, because the "herds" are healthy and they won't get killed by residents?Maybe your idea but not mine.
Keep the % , cap the g/o's, then help the BCers to attain their share.
They are closer to it in 7 than in 6 by a big step.

[boxhitch]

Bridger, how was the number of resident tags calculated ?
A sheep tag is BC wide, any-species
So maybe that number is derived from harvest questionaires ?

[BCrams]

here are some historical harvest stats for stone sheep in region 6 that I just received along with a background explanation

1997 to 2003

Resident tags sold--1608
Resident harvest---- 197
success rate---------12%

Non res tags sold-----743
Non res harvest------468
Success rate--------63%

1990-1996

Res tags sold-------1981
Res harvest-------- 345
Res Success------- 17%

Non Res tags sold----633
Non Res Harvest-----471
Non Res Sucess------- 74%

Rich,

This is data that I calculated from MoE data to derive a basis between resident/non-resident hunter numbers in comparison to harvest. As can be seen residents dwarf non-residents in participation but not in harvest, so its not a result of lack of interest on the resident side.

It is also interesting when one considers the total resident and non-resident harvest in the Skeena Region over the past 2 decades we see the combined harvest does not equate to 50% of the cumulative quota given to GO's in the Skeena Region. This points to GO's being grossly over allocated and an underlining reason that has hindered residents. Now consider that the majority of rams harvested occurs in the first 3 weeks of August and that residents have a hard time finding legal rams beyond the end of August. The one that are harvested later by residents are generally marginal rams in the 6-7 year class.

Sheep management in the Skeena Region is a mess particularly that revolving around resident priority and opportunity. The MoE has failed to represent the public interest and negligently shifted its priority to cater to and promote the commercial and non-resident hunting interest first and foremost. The resident only pre-season sheep hunt is desired, justified, with merit and serves the non-commercial public interests. Why has MoE not acted on this request that has been on their table for the last 3 years? At $35,000 a sheep and the total disregard of resident priority and opportunity it almost sound like ????

Great data and information Rich. Speaks volumes about public interest in Stone's sheep. The point about the first few weeks of August is true, the GO's know where most of the rams are already and which ones they're targetting.



Why has MoE not acted on this request that has been on the table for the last 3 years? At $35, 000 a sheep and the total disregard of resident priority and opportunity it almost sound like ????


Lets not forget everyone, the first sentence applies basically to the entire province regarding resident priority and opportunity ..... not just sheep (i.e., what happened to the resident recruitment and retention strategy???)

[bridger]

Bridger, how was the number of resident tags calculated ?
A sheep tag is BC wide, any-species
So maybe that number is derived from harvest questionaires ?

hunter questionaires to my knowledge the info came straight from moe -bridger

[Maxx]

Maybe your idea but not mine.
Keep the % , cap the g/o's, then help the BCers to attain their share.
They are closer to it in 7 than in 6 by a big step.


thanks for answering- how do you propose that they do that?( keep the cap and % the same trying to acheive the 60/40? and how would you assist the residents?)

[boxhitch]

........ The point about the first few weeks of August is true, the GO's know where most of the rams are already and which ones they're targetting.
Mostly from previous experiences. I don't think much effort is put into pre-scouting in the north, but what do I know?

[boxhitch]

thanks for answering- how do you propose that they do that?( keep the cap and % the same trying to acheive the 60/40? and how would you assist the residents?)I've been after a habitat map used in reg 6 inventory work, and would pin it up at the WSS agm.
According to the bio's presentation last year at the meetings, there are lots of sheep in the region but most of them are beyond reach of most effort. Access is an issue

[GoatGuy]

I've been after a habitat map used in reg 6 inventory work, and would pin it up at the WSS agm.
According to the bio's presentation last year at the meetings, there are lots of sheep in the region but most of them are beyond reach of most effort. Access is an issue

You won't get one. There were only 1000 sheep classified.

Nobody told you that they thought they 'missed' most of the sheep.

Why wasn't there a report?

Why wasn't there a comparison with previous surveys?

Why do g/os fill less than half of their quota in Region 6? Don't forget that half includes the quota for LEH areas when g/os fill their quota near 100%. One would think a hunt that goes for 25-35 K US would mean outfitters are trying to shoot their quota???

And the days per kill are actually higher in Region 6 than they are in 7B.

You're right there are spots that have little access, but there's spots just like that in 7B as well. If sheep were that plentiful it would show up in the non-res numbers. For some reason it doesn't?

Lots of things that don't make sense.

[boxhitch]

I doubt reg 6 is practiced at sheep inventory
Maybe they should hire Round River again
Tough to build an AAH on poor data, or maybe that is RM's plan ?
Keep it all vague, keep the boyz in the band happy.

For the non-resi effort, the success seems about right, higher than many outfits in 7.

Maybe they don't or can't take enough hunters to kill more sheep.
Maybe the quotas are too high to achieve with current business models.
Maybe there are no other sheep to go after
Maybe

If things get riled much more, hunters will have to airdrop in at night behind the MZ

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Know a guy with his own plane that was hired last yr by a GO in Reg 6 to fly his area to do "inventories":wink:. This was a week before the Aug 1st opener.

SSS

[boxhitch]

Can he be bought ?

One outfitter is trying to get rams collared for a 'study' of movement.

[bridger]

don't know much about how much pre scouting g/o's due in region 6, but from first hand knowledge i can tell you there is lots in 7b that do. if you really want to know how the go's operate in the accessibe areas get to know some assistant guides that no longer guide. pretty interesting.

[325 wsm]

Know a guy with his own plane that was hired last yr by a GO in Reg 6 to fly his area to do "inventories":wink:. This was a week before the Aug 1st opener.

SSS


That's awful...The GO should have no right to try and study the game populations in their area:wink:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Just using it as another reason for a resident head-start.


SSS

[325 wsm]

Are resident hunters handicapped or what?

[bigwhiteys]

I am not really seeing the resident "head start" on sheep as a really great thing... It's accessibility that seems to be the issue.

Getting out there earlier, doesn't put us further back in the hills. I think resident only areas in the easily accessible spots (where guides DO try and take rams every year) would be a better idea...

And there is all kinds of pre-season scouting that goes on in region 7b for sheep...

My Grandpa used to have his crew cut trail through June/July. You bet they had a spotter or two with them :)

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I am not really seeing the resident "head start" on sheep as a really great thing... It's accessibility that seems to be the issue.

Getting out there earlier, doesn't put us further back in the hills. I think resident only areas in the easily accessible spots (where guides DO try and take rams every year) would be a better idea...

And there is all kinds of pre-season scouting that goes on in region 7b for sheep...

My Grandpa used to have his crew cut trail through June/July. You bet they had a spotter or two with them :)

Carl

"Accessibilty" can mean different things than just having the ability to hike into certain tougher to get to spots.

Here's just one example to show my point...........
A certain member on here did his research and chartered a plane into a good Stone's sheep lake. On his way up there the charter company said that they could no longer take him there(they will no longer fly anyone there).
Well, a later picture revealed that the GO shot a nice 167-168" ram right above the lake on opening day. Go figure:?.
A lot of people on here gave that member a pretty hard time over the issue but he had ever right to be irate.

Some may call it good business but does that make it fair?? I say BS! This is a perfect reason why residents to should have a 2 week headstart.

Preseason scouting by GO's is widespread(as it should be) but it can result in a "lockdown" of the nearest lake. Some charters are more resident friendly than others but often the extra distances to use them is often cost prohibitive. This is another reason why we need a resident friendly pilot to buy Bruce's outfit.

GO protectionism seems more widespread in Reg 6 than 7B. My guess is that because their quotas are so overinflated due to the "Skeena Fromula" that every legal ram means something to a GO. They don't have the rams to fill their quotas so every resident that they can keep from shooting "their rams" is money in the bank.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

"Accessibilty" can mean different things than just having the ability to hike into certain tougher to get to spots.

I am not talking hiking... Riverboats, planes, horses and ATV's can get a guy into sheep country too... Not everyone has those tools for access though... So letting them in early won't do much.

Have areas that are resident ONLY then you don't worry about GO interference period. I know of spots along the AK highway where legal rams are taken nearly every year by the outfitter. These rams can be seen with binos off the highway. Why would he bother? Especially when they have some pristine sheep country further back.


A certain member on here did his research and chartered a plane into a good Stone's sheep lake. On his way up there the charter company said that they could no longer take him there(they will no longer fly anyone there). Well, a later picture revealed that the GO shot a nice 167-168" ram right above the lake on opening day. Go figure:???:.


In the end the pilot has the right to refuse anybody he wants. Shitty, but a fact.


Preseason scouting by GO's is widespread(as it should be) but it can result in a "lockdown" of the nearest lake. Some charters are more resident friendly than others but often the extra distances to use them is often cost prohibitive. This is another reason why we need a resident friendly pilot to buy Bruce's outfit.

LOTS of stone sheep country without "landable" lakes nearby. But again, very hard for average joe resident to get to without horses.

I think access and available modes of transportation are bigger issues... Like certain GO's who hold the transport licenses for their area but refuse to fly/pack residents.

I am not sold on the 2 week head start yet... The GO competition thing has yet to affect me in a negative way on any of my hunts, aside from a certain outfitter who likes to fly a little low :)

Carl

[bridger]

The two week head start is designed to reduce direct competition between go's and residents in the easily accessible areas. having spots that are residents only would have to encompass large areas to be effective. such as spences bridge or the junction a two week head start will give the resident a chance at the rams in the accessible areas.

[bridger]

as far as charter aircraft companies refusing to fly residents in to a lake then fly non residents in is a violation of their charter and they should be reported to the feds. the feds take a dim view of that practice.

[KodiakHntr]

I am not sold on the 2 week head start yet... Carl

Me either. I think in areas where there are the problems with GO's (which I have yet to actually see, although there are always stories about it) it seems to me that the problems would simply take another form.....ie, employed guides posing as resident hunters working legal rams to keep other guys away, etc....

[sako_300]

Going back to the numbers - how about the sheep that were not legal? are those considered?

I know of two cases this year that guys were stopped and found to have illegal rams. I wonder how many were left on the hill after being shot.

If you don't think it happens then you are oblivious - I find moose, deer, elk that have been shot and just don't quite make the cut. Look for the closest ravens or rank smell. .

[bridger]

Me either. I think in areas where there are the problems with GO's (which I have yet to actually see, although there are always stories about it) it seems to me that the problems would simply take another form.....ie, employed guides posing as resident hunters working legal rams to keep other guys away, etc....


that is why the season opener has to be two weeks. any shorter would lead to the problems you suggest.

[bigwhiteys]

that is why the season opener has to be two weeks. any shorter would lead to the problems you suggest.
I just don't see the 2 week early season be better for us... Like you mentioned in another thread, residents seem to hit the same areas over and over (maybe thats why the age of rams get progessively younger as the season progresses?)

So let us at it 2 weeks earlier and then what? I've hunted the august opener a few times, and wow.... It's not worth it with the amount of pressure in the hills both resident and GO's, but the GO pressure is very light from what I have seen. Way more resident boat trailers at the launches, and horsetrailers at every trailhead, and also vehicles parked at most of the drainages accessible from the highway.

Why not have a corridor along the easily accesible areas that is resident only... No Guides? They do after all have the equipment and rigging that the other 95% of us wish we had.

Carl

[bridger]

here are the 2009 harvest stats for sheep in region 7b by age and residency group

Resident -8yrs---26
Resident +8 yrs--71
total res---------97
% +8---------- 78%

Non Res -8yrs----8
non Res +8 yrs---80
Total non res---- 88
%+8 ------------91%

[sako_300]

here are the 2009 harvest stats for sheep in region 7b by age and residency group

Resident -8yrs---26
Resident +8 yrs--71
total res---------97
% +8---------- 27%

Non Res -8yrs----8
non Res +8 yrs---80
Total non res---- 88
%+8 ------------91%

You have your numbers backwards, should be 74% +8 for res.

[GoatGuy]

I doubt reg 6 is practiced at sheep inventory
Maybe they should hire Round River again
Tough to build an AAH on poor data, or maybe that is RM's plan ?
Keep it all vague, keep the boyz in the band happy.

For the non-resi effort, the success seems about right, higher than many outfits in 7.

Maybe they don't or can't take enough hunters to kill more sheep.
Maybe the quotas are too high to achieve with current business models.
Maybe there are no other sheep to go after
Maybe

If things get riled much more, hunters will have to airdrop in at night behind the MZ

The outfits that have the LEH areas throw a wrench into success rates as well as days per kill. Success rates are generally 100% and days per kill are low, like 3-4 days per kill low. :-|

They have old inventories.

The outfitters purposely don't book even their quota in hunters because the sheep simply don't exist.

[KodiakHntr]

that is why the season opener has to be two weeks. any shorter would lead to the problems you suggest.

Thats the time frame that I'm talking about....During that two week period I think the potential exists for the same problems.

Those that are going to be a part of a problem will continue to be a problem regardless of whether they have hunters in camp or not.

[bridger]

You have your numbers backwards, should be 74% +8 for res.

thanks bridger

[bighornbob]

Why not have a corridor along the easily accesible areas that is resident only... No Guides? They do after all have the equipment and rigging that the other 95% of us wish we had.

Carl

I like this idea but what would be the corridor and how big, 20km off the highway for starters?? What about the rivers, 20km on either side??

I personally would like to see the packers rule lifted. The guides pushed for this as they said the packers were guiding hunters. Lift the rule and let anyone who wants to pack be able to do it. Also make the ones packing not be able to be a guide outfitter. A guide outfitter holding the packing license has to be the biggest conflict of interest going.

BHB

[bigwhiteys]

I like this idea but what would be the corridor and how big, 20km off the highway for starters?? What about the rivers, 20km on either side??
I would say slightly less, if you're hiking beyond 12 miles "one-way" after your boat/plane/atv/horse ride to get into sheep country you are a serious sheep hunter. Maybe 8-10 miles off the highway and major tributaries actively travelled by resident hunters. (the river ones might be hard though?)

They(GO's) can then hunt the sheep in the back country we can't (or very few of us) can reach (like they used to). It might mean they have to work a little harder, but they are professionals, shouldn't be a problem right?

I just don't see an early season as the "fix" for our own low harvest. We will simply kill off the harvestable sheep in a specific drainage 2 weeks faster... And as Rich posted, the rams from resident harvest seem to get progessively smaller as the season progresses.

What does that suggest to you?

To me it would suggest that once those old rams are harvested (from the easier to get to spots) there is nothing left but the young and marginally legal rams... Anything of size (and smarts) has gotten waay the hell out of dodge by the time a few of their older monarchs go down. So we simply shoot what's left.

Adding two weeks to that benefits whom? The resident ONLY area would keep the same seasons, lessen the overall pressure and if GO's aren't allowed in those regions (or risk major trouble) it might alleviate some of the other issues.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

I would say slightly less, if you're hiking beyond 12 miles "one-way" after your boat/plane/atv/horse ride to get into sheep country you are a serious sheep hunter. Maybe 8-10 miles off the highway and major tributaries actively travelled by resident hunters. (the river ones might be hard though?)

They(GO's) can then hunt the sheep in the back country we can't (or very few of us) can reach (like they used to). It might mean they have to work a little harder, but they are professionals, shouldn't be a problem right?

I just don't see an early season as the "fix" for our own low harvest. We will simply kill off the harvestable sheep in a specific drainage 2 weeks faster... And as Rich posted, the rams from resident harvest seem to get progessively smaller as the season progresses.

What does that suggest to you?

To me it would suggest that once those old rams are harvested (from the easier to get to spots) there is nothing left but the young and marginally legal rams... Anything of size (and smarts) has gotten waay the hell out of dodge by the time a few of their older monarchs go down. So we simply shoot what's left.

Adding two weeks to that benefits whom? The resident ONLY area would keep the same seasons, lessen the overall pressure and if GO's aren't allowed in those regions (or risk major trouble) it might alleviate some of the other issues.

Carl

The two week thing is cause most of the g/os with easily accessed areas start in the 'front country' first and work their way back because they know residents will be in there cropping the rams off. Same goes with lakes that see pressure. There will be a higher resident harvest in those spots if there's a two week head start.

This solution accomplishes the same thing. Not a bad idea. The logistics of it would be quite the program. I can just hear the outfitters with easily accessed areas.

[GoatGuy]

Part of the problem is still quota. Know a few guys who put on way more than 12 miles in a day of hiking or horsing who used to pass plenty of 160" rams that aren't finding the rams they used to, even compared to 5 years ago.

It's the same in Region 4.

[budismyhorse]

Part of the problem is still quota. Know a few guys who put on way more than 12 miles in a day of hiking or horsing who used to pass plenty of 160" rams that aren't finding the rams they used to, even compared to 5 years ago.

It's the same in Region 4.

Can this be read:

"If the outfitter takes less sheep annually, there will be more sheep for residents to harvest"

since they are the only ones on quota.

Or:

"185 rams in 7b is too many annually regardless of who kills them"

just curious.

[bridger]

Can this be read:

"If the outfitter takes less sheep annually, there will be more sheep for residents to harvest"

since they are the only ones on quota.

Or:

"185 rams in 7b is too many annually regardless of who kills them"

just curious.


the moe has set a target annual allowable harvest of 180 rams so 185 rams is not too many. after the wolf kill in the 1980's the annual combined harvest was over 300 rams. it is easy to get sidetracked on these threads but remember this in 7b the annual allowable harvest is 180 rams plus or minus a few. bc residents under the new allocation policy are guaranteed 60% or 108 rams as a minimum. the maximum per centage for residents is 80% or 144 rams. so as resident harvest stats increase (if they do) the non resident quota goes down until it levels off at 20% of the annual harvest. at that point if resident harvst continues to increase then we put the breaks on the resident side of the equation. not before!!

[GoatGuy]

Can this be read:

"If the outfitter takes less sheep annually, there will be more sheep for residents to harvest"

since they are the only ones on quota.

Or:

"185 rams in 7b is too many annually regardless of who kills them"

just curious.

Sorry, outfitter quota is to high.

[boxhitch]

Resident only areas would not be enforceable, impossible to monitor sufficiently.
With the resident only season, there is room for g/o exploitment too, but easier to have spot checks.

[6616]

Does it have to be one or the other, why not have both...?

[bridger]

Does it have to be one or the other, why not have both...?

i like the way you think! the other really simple solution is to lower the quota to the 20% minimum in both region 6 and 7b. As goatguy has pointed out the one major problem is the quota's are too high especially in region 6

[Devilbear]

I like this idea but what would be the corridor and how big, 20km off the highway for starters?? What about the rivers, 20km on either side??

I personally would like to see the packers rule lifted. The guides pushed for this as they said the packers were guiding hunters. Lift the rule and let anyone who wants to pack be able to do it. Also make the ones packing not be able to be a guide outfitter. A guide outfitter holding the packing license has to be the biggest conflict of interest going.

BHB

I strongly agree with this proposal and would also like to see ALL GOs restricted to a MAXIMUM annual quota of TEN per cent of available game species, no exceptions. When ANY species, anywhere in the province, is placed on LEH, then there should be NO quota for GOs.

There are TOO many foreigners allowed to hunt and fish in BC and the benefits to us are minimal. While I would prefer NO "non resident alien" hunting and fishing here at all, I realize that some BCers have relatives and friends in foreign countries and wish to bring them here, so, perhaps some provision should be made for that.

I am tired of seeing American boats on Kootenay Lake and hearing about all of the "trophies" they take here. The resources of BC are my birthright and heritage and I do not want fatazz Yankees killing our wild sheep and other game.

[bridger]

the idea of resident only zones is great and a concept i would gladly support. One obstacle that would have to be overcome is that all the areas we would like to exclude are part of guiding territories at present. I would think that in order to exclude guides from operating in parts of their allocated areas the government would have to compensate them with large sums of money. When the NDP shut down the grizzly bear season they paid the guides around $750,000 as compensation. A little known fact of life. It would appear to me that we should stick to getting the two week resident season only for sheep season and go from there.

[6616]

Would resident only zones stimulate a request from the GOABC for guide-only zones...?

[358mag]

your post is too calm to stir things up, no popcorn date unless you really tell us whats on your mind.
Best let this one alone looks like everyone else is taking a shot at it .
No one would belive what we seen away, no need to stir the pot anymore.

[bridger]

Would resident only zones stimulate a request from the GOABC for guide-only zones...?

probably. but let me take you back in history a number of years. when i first became involved with the bcwf the goabc and many of the guides were members of the Fed and there were two outfitters on the board of directors. the effort to have quota's installed for non resident sheep hunters was heatin up and i remember the fed asking membership imput to the question. "is there a legitmate conflict between residents and guide outfitters in 7b and if so what is the solution?" The consensus from the membership was a resounding yes. The Fed president at the time asked one of the outfitters on the board to prepare a brief that would provide a solution. His conclusion was that the only way to reduce the conflict was for the government to create resident only zones and non resident only zones. The residents zone was to be all the muskeg area east of the Alaska Highway to the Alberta border and the non resident zone all the mtn country where the good hunting is west of the Alaska highway. At the next convention this was an open discussion at the closed session on thursday night resulting in the goabc no longer being in the Fed. Now that was an interesting night. So I guess my point is be careful what you wish for.

[GoatGuy]

Would resident only zones stimulate a request from the GOABC for guide-only zones...?

Requests are simply that.

[PGK]

Requests are simply that.

Pretty glib reply given the failure of the BCWF and resident hunting community to address the issues already on the table, don't you think?

[bridger]

Pretty glib reply given the failure of the BCWF and resident hunting community to address the issues already on the table, don't you think?


what would they be?

[boxhitch]

Pretty glib reply given the failure of the BCWF and resident hunting community to address the issues already on the table, don't you think?The failure is yours to realize the efforts and accomplishments being made.

[GoatGuy]

It's Tucho again, I wanted to talk about the zone 6 sheep hunting for a moment. The reason for the low resident harvest is access, ruggedness, and the alder choked valleys.

Residents success used to be quite a bit higher. Were there no alder valleys before or have the mountains become taller?


The sheep #'s are at a high in Zone 6 from counts done.

Which counts are those?

The counts I have were certainly not conducted for densities but were only to see the sex ratios and classifications.

If you sit down and talk to a couple of the old-time outfitters and pilots in some of those outfits they will not tell you the sheep #'s are high.

In fact some of the areas that were producing big rams every year are starting to have a tough time finding decent rams. Wolves, is what I was told.



But that means for Zone 6. It is marginally sheep country in zone 6. Carrying capacity is at it's max. The handy stuff on the Cassiar highway allready get's hammered us residents. I've hunted a few areas in zone 6 and it's tough hunting. Most outfitter quotas in zone 6 are low, 3-5 tags for the most part. Hunting in 7 is easier and the rams are better. To get the kill ratio where it's supposed to be(res/non-res) isn't possible becouse no one wants to hunt zone 6. You don't see rams and it's to tough to access. It's tough sheep hunting.

Most outfitter quotas are not low. Outfitters in Region 6 do not shoot 50% (half) of their quotas in region 6. Some of the outfitters do not and will not even book their full quota in Region 6.

I'm not sure where you've been getter your info from but if you want some data feel free.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

[quote=tucho;601387] Carrying capacity is at it's max. The handy stuff on the Cassiar highway allready get's hammered us residents. I've hunted a few areas in zone 6 and it's tough hunting. Most outfitter quotas in zone 6 are low, 3-5 tags for the most part. quote]

I see you've got your joke out of the way .

Are you familiar with the Skeena quota process?

Welcome to the site!

SSS

[GoatGuy]

Hello, I'm new to this blog thing but here I go. My name is Shawn Byram and I'm from Cranbrook,BC. I''m a believer in making sure everybody knows who I am if I'm going to state my opinions. Firstly, I'm not an outfitter or guide. I'm a resident hunter. Besides my family, I eat, think, and sleep sheep. I've done allot of northern hunting and my share of southern bighorn hunting. I'm not sure we should be so worried about the non-resident harvest. We residents have more opportunity than anyone in the world to hunt general seasons and different sub-species. We have access to planes, horses, jet boats, wall tents, and anything else that might help us in our search for our rams. If we harvest less than our share it's only our own fault. Outfitters live it, we just dabble. As far as lenghthening seasons,opening access, or gov't issued maps, I think that would be a mistake. The season on all sheep is long enough. Access is the only protection sheep populations have. And maps! Sheep hunting is all about finding them, once found there easy to kill. Zone 7 outfitters have been significantly cut in quotas as is. What's wrong with letting non-residents have some. We all enjoy going to SK, MB, Alb, and southern US states don't we? Getting the season lengthened for us res. might get us a few more rams, but not many. If we can't kill our share now, nothing other than making it easier for us will help. Don't we want to work for our rams? It's makes one appreciate them so much more. Let's not forget, a few years ago all we heard about was all sheep going on Ltd entry. If we keep hammering away at the outfitters until they have skeleton quotas, they'll have a better chance of getting just that. They have more money behind them, and they are better organized than us. Besides don't you think we sound a touch spoiled complaining about sheep hunting kill ratios, quotas, and whatever? If all sheep go on Ltd entry we'll all be sheep hunting fans, not hunters. Let's try working with outfitters to deal with real problems like grizzly hunts, and our rights to hunt. Thanks for taking the time to read.

In most of those other states and provinces you're talking about non-residents do not get more than 10% of the harvest, no 70%. In many of the areas you mention there are resident only areas, zones and even resident only species.

I don't think anybody would be complaining if things were similar in BC as they are across the rest of North America.

[GoatGuy]

Tucho,

We might have met before. Was your dad an outfitter at one point? You guys live up the Bull?

[riflebuilder]

I strongly agree with this proposal and would also like to see ALL GOs restricted to a MAXIMUM annual quota of TEN per cent of available game species, no exceptions. When ANY species, anywhere in the province, is placed on LEH, then there should be NO quota for GOs.

There are TOO many foreigners allowed to hunt and fish in BC and the benefits to us are minimal. While I would prefer NO "non resident alien" hunting and fishing here at all, I realize that some BCers have relatives and friends in foreign countries and wish to bring them here, so, perhaps some provision should be made for that.

I am tired of seeing American boats on Kootenay Lake and hearing about all of the "trophies" they take here. The resources of BC are my birthright and heritage and I do not want fatazz Yankees killing our wild sheep and other game.


So it is safe to say that you never want to or intend to hunt anywhere but BC right?

[yukon john]

Ohh no this guy makes sense, what to do now.....welcome aboard Tucho, We dont really hate each other but arguing gets us through the winter faster.

[yukon john]

I'm interested in your zone 6 outfitter quota #'s. I used to get all the stats, but let up on it the last 10 years. Creyke's, Gutfricht's, and Lancaster's had slightly higher quotas but most were lower and were killing 2 or 3 rams a year.


I could be wrong but I heard Creykes had a quota of 12 but they are selling half of their place anyway but for now I believe they are the highest in region 6. Your right most outfitters in region 6 are killing 3-4 rams a year I heard cummings and black didnt even get that this year. If guys want quota slashed dont go after the guys with 6 tags maybe look at the guy with 21

[bridger]

Goat guy, I do think we would be complaining if we had to wait an eternity to draw a tag to hunt sheep like states south of the border.

we don't want to draw for a sheep tag that is why guys like goatguy put some much time and effort into standing up and being counted. he deserves a pat on the back

[GoatGuy]

I'm interested in your zone 6 outfitter quota #'s. I used to get all the stats, but let up on it the last 10 years. Creyke's, Gutfricht's, and Lancaster's had slightly higher quotas but most were lower and were killing 2 or 3 rams a year.

There's a couple names you've left off the list who also have high quotas. I don't believe you ever kept up on it or knew who had what.

The quota in Region 6 is almost double what it is in 7B. Do you believe there are more than double the sheep in Region 6 as compared to 7B?



It' funny, but you talk to zone 6 biologists and the consensus is that sheep #'s are stable to increasing.

In Spatsizi.

There haven't been any increases on quota and the days per kill for non-res have increased if anything. The resident harvest is down around 30-50% just since the 90s depending on the area and the non-resident harvest has actually decreased.

Theoretically there should be far more rams running around and you would think that outfitters would be filling at least 10 or 20% of the 50% of the un-unsed portion but they don't. In fact the non-resident harvest is down a bit as well although the number of clients book have stayed relatively stable.


Goat guy, I do think we would be complaining if we had to wait an eternity to draw a tag to hunt sheep like states south of the border.
This is relevant to what?

In some of those states they have over 1 Million hunters. What does this have to do with the conversation?


Zone 6 has never had areas that produce big sheep on a regular basis, unless your talking the 60's. Yes, I think wolves are always a problem. We might have met up the bull Goat guy, we are up there quite a bit! No, I have no relations that outfit, or ever outfitted. I'm from MB originally. Steve, what joke?

6 has produced big rams on a regular basis in a few select areas. The wolves in a couple areas have become a problem in the last couple of years, not since the 60s.

We didn't meet up the bull - you're not the same guy.

To be very honest, I don't think you know what you're talking about. I'm gonna call bs on this.

[GoatGuy]

I could be wrong but I heard Creykes had a quota of 12 but they are selling half of their place anyway but for now I believe they are the highest in region 6. Your right most outfitters in region 6 are killing 3-4 rams a year I heard cummings and black didnt even get that this year. If guys want quota slashed dont go after the guys with 6 tags maybe look at the guy with 21

It's more than 12 and Creykes area isn't the highest in 6.

There are 6 outfitters I can think of off the top of my head that get into the double digits.

Why does those guys only kill 3 or 4 rams?

Cummins quota is probably close to 10 or more with admin guidelines; why aren't they killing that many sheep or shooting even half of their quota?

Not a fan of Billy?

[BCrams]

Zone 6 has never had areas that produce big sheep on a regular basis, unless your talking the 60's. Yes, I think wolves are always a problem. We might have met up the bull Goat guy, we are up there quite a bit! No, I have no relations that outfit, or ever outfitted. I'm from MB originally. Steve, what joke?

You would be surprised. Not booking or filling quota's aside......Spatsizi for example has been very consistent producing good mature rams year after year and in the last 5 or 6 years we've seen some of the top Stone's rams come from Region 6.

Welcome to the site.

[yukon john]

It's more than 12 and Creykes area isn't the highest in 6.

There are 6 outfitters I can think of off the top of my head that get into the double digits.

Why does those guys only kill 3 or 4 rams?

Cummins quota is probably close to 10 or more with admin guidelines; why aren't they killing that many sheep or shooting even half of their quota?

Not a fan of Billy?

You know numbers better than me, 6 guys with double digits?! Is that privileged info or will you share

[GoatGuy]

You would be surprised. Not booking or filling quota's aside......Spatsizi for example has been very consistent producing good mature rams year after year and in the last 5 or 6 years we've seen some of the top Stone's rams come from Region 6.

Welcome to the site.

Spatsizi's a blip when it comes to sheep in Region 6. Collingwood's go 100% pretty much every year and fill their quota. Mind you their area is flown regularly, because it's a high profile park so the population estimates and quota are realistic.

[yukon john]

cummins doesnt get 10 though a buddy of mine works for him

[BCrams]

Spatsizi's a blip when it comes to sheep in Region 6. Collingwood's go 100% pretty much every year and fill their quota. Mind you their area is flown regularly, because it's a high profile park so the population estimates and quota are realistic.

Just making reference to large mature rams that Tucho doesn't think exists in Region 6.

Collingwoods indeed have filled their quota consistently.

I can guarantee if a map was put up for resident LEH holders, the success ratio would go up a little bit :wink: Have a resident only season head start and some of those mature rams Collingwoods take could very well be taken by residents instead!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Just making reference to large mature rams that Tucho doesn't think exists in Region 6.

Collingwoods indeed have filled their quota consistently.

I can guarantee if a map was put up for resident LEH holders, the success ratio would go up a little bit :wink: Have a resident only season head start and some of those mature rams Collingwoods take could very well be taken by residents instead!


If residents are a bunch of fat, bumbling, beer drinking sheep hunters as some guide mentioned on here, then there should be no harm in giving us a 2 week headstart.:wink:

SSS

[GoatGuy]

cummins doesnt get 10 though a buddy of mine works for him
8 plus admin guidelines including Teslin LEH?

If his quota is only 8 why doesn't he shoot them?

[BCrams]

and believe in opening road closures too.

If a GO can have a key to transport gear, clients and animals by vehicle to a camp 10 - 20 km back at the end of a road closure, then don't you agree that residents should have the same privilege? :-D

Ok lets keep this on track. Anyone can name outfitters. There's an outfitter directory list and the GO boundaries are available for all to view..... your point??

[GoatGuy]

Goat guy, did you not say residents wouldn't compain if management was like other states and provinces? If it was like other states we would be on draw for everything. And then there would be some complaining. That's the relevents to that.

If we had 1 million+ hunters we would be on draw for everything, BUT we don't, so it isn't relevant.:wink:

[GoatGuy]

You know numbers better than me, 6 guys with double digits?! Is that privileged info or will you share

Couple names that come to mind would be:

Bradford, Lancaster, Larsen, Geraci, Creyke, Connors. I'm counting on my secondhand now, so that must be 6.

Don't forget many of these were split in the past.

[GoatGuy]

Geraci,Lancaster, and Connors are partly in zone 7 are they not?

Yes, that's correct, so is Bradford's.

[GoatGuy]

Goat Guy, you say the harvest use to be higher. In zone 6 it's been fairly constant for the last 25 years has it not.

No, it has not.

After 7 or 8 posts I think I've had enough.

Usually don't quit this easy, but it's rare that somebody comes up with incorrect information that many times in a row.

[yama49]

Where are you running into these gates at these road closures?

http://www.sikanniriver.com/ (http://www.sikanniriver.com/) Just to name one gate that gets abused.. back to thread

[BCrams]

BCrams, periodically there are big rams killed in 6, but not near as many as zone 7. Where are you running into these gates at these road closures?
/

I have not run into them. Just second hand information of which I am sure some folks in the Kootenays can confirm. I am referring to road closures in the Kootenays. You live there, so you should know about some of them.

(oh yeah.....the Sikanni gate - forgot about that one when on a bison hunt)

[bridger]

mile 171 alaska highway going into sikanni river outfitters camp. they have a key no one else does.

[Devilbear]

So it is safe to say that you never want to or intend to hunt anywhere but BC right?

No, that would be an incorrect assumption from my posts, which have consistently stressed sharing MORE BC hunting/game with OTHER CANADIANS. This would entail eliminating foreign access to our resources and I have advocated this for all of the 49 years I have been active in conservation.

I "might" want to hunt in the NWT and the Yukon, close family members pioneered there in the 1890s and both my wife and I worked there in our younger years. I might want to hunt on "the Prairies", family pioneered there in the 1880s and my wife's in the late 1870s, so, I am talking about BIRTHRIGHT.

Do you know that I actually had an American question my right to hunt in the Kootenays, recently? My family has lived, owned businesses and paid taxes there for 117 years, I was born there and yet this total Yankee pr**K had the bloody gall to tell me that I was not welcome to hunt there......I react VERY strongly to such arrogant foreigners and am a proud Canadian nationalist of whom we need many more.

I DO NOT WANT to hunt in the USA, never have, never will and have not crossed the border since Clinton was POTUS. BTW, would you happen to be Bill W., who knew Russell F. in Nelson and Ed. S. as well? If so, we have talked guns on the phone.

[Devilbear]

Why don't all you guys push for a nice cushy winter range hunt, maybe with a snowmobile . Sounds like November or December would be perfect. You'd sure get your ram. Get that resident harvest up

I find this post utterly unacceptable and while I initially enjoyed your controversial comments, this and your sneer at the BCWF have made anything further you might post a complete waste of bandwidth, to me.

It certainly did not take you very long to reveal your "true colours", eh?

Many of us here were climbing, hiking and hunting the Kootenay mountains and other parts of BC when you were still sucking and wearing Pampers in Manitoba, so, show some respect or kindly STFU.

[willy442]

Hello, I'm new to this blog thing but here I go. My name is Shawn Byram and I'm from Cranbrook,BC. I''m a believer in making sure everybody knows who I am if I'm going to state my opinions. Firstly, I'm not an outfitter or guide. I'm a resident hunter. Besides my family, I eat, think, and sleep sheep. I've done allot of northern hunting and my share of southern bighorn hunting. I'm not sure we should be so worried about the non-resident harvest. We residents have more opportunity than anyone in the world to hunt general seasons and different sub-species. We have access to planes, horses, jet boats, wall tents, and anything else that might help us in our search for our rams. If we harvest less than our share it's only our own fault. Outfitters live it, we just dabble. As far as lenghthening seasons,opening access, or gov't issued maps, I think that would be a mistake. The season on all sheep is long enough. Access is the only protection sheep populations have. And maps! Sheep hunting is all about finding them, once found there easy to kill. Zone 7 outfitters have been significantly cut in quotas as is. What's wrong with letting non-residents have some. We all enjoy going to SK, MB, Alb, and southern US states don't we? Getting the season lengthened for us res. might get us a few more rams, but not many. If we can't kill our share now, nothing other than making it easier for us will help. Don't we want to work for our rams? It's makes one appreciate them so much more. Let's not forget, a few years ago all we heard about was all sheep going on Ltd entry. If we keep hammering away at the outfitters until they have skeleton quotas, they'll have a better chance of getting just that. They have more money behind them, and they are better organized than us. Besides don't you think we sound a touch spoiled complaining about sheep hunting kill ratios, quotas, and whatever? If all sheep go on Ltd entry we'll all be sheep hunting fans, not hunters. Let's try working with outfitters to deal with real problems like grizzly hunts, and our rights to hunt. Thanks for taking the time to read.

Tucho; Congrats man on being a true stand up resident sheep hunter, concerned with hunting and especially sheep. As you've no doubt seen from the socialites on this site, they want a set of horns on thier basement wall with minimal effort or cost to aquire them.

Opening roads, punting G/O's, early seasons, guides, Super Cub attacks and big quota's (even though Quota's fail to be killed due to the G/O's themselves being conservationists) are all they can think about and blame thier failure on. Yes I know it is a shame but unfortunately thats the way it is with the small vocal group on here. Please do not be discouraged and understand, there are others out there that prefer to view things like yourself

No matter what you post for numbers or what you know from seeing with your own eye's, it will be picked apart here by these people. While they believe in thier own minds they are the answer to keeping us hunting down the road. Some actually even believe they are the country's greatest sheep hunters and will tell you so. The numbers posted are very much a joke and can be manipulated by either the resident or G/O to favor whatever.

Good Luck and Welcome. The site needs more like you.:-D

[Devilbear]

I will, at any time, hike into the mountains anywhere in BC with Willy and will carry a pack that weighs as much as his plus a rifle and will match him mile for mile until one of us drops from fatigue and gives up. Willy has injuries, so do I and I am several years older than he is and still backpack.

This slagging of anyone who disagrees with him is a habit of Willy's, yet, while he loves to make foolish comments on others, he has yet to meet anyone to do it in person.

This is too bad, Willy knows a lot about the NE-BC sheep mountains and Stone's Sheep, but, he wastes his and our time with nasty remarks about others, when he could teach us all a lot and thereby gain credibility for his positions on G/Os, etc.

Would you like to do this, Willy, or will you PLEASE start posting the stuff that you know that I, for one, really would like to hear about?

[yama49]

Tucho; Congrats man on being a true stand up resident sheep hunter, concerned with hunting and especially sheep. As you've no doubt seen from the socialites on this site, they want a set of horns on thier basement wall with minimal effort or cost to aquire them.

Opening roads, punting G/O's, early seasons, guides, Super Cub attacks and big quota's (even though Quota's fail to be killed due to the G/O's themselves being conservationists) are all they can think about and blame thier failure on. Yes I know it is a shame but unfortunately thats the way it is with the small vocal group on here. Please do not be discouraged and understand, there are others out there that prefer to view things like yourself

No matter what you post for numbers or what you know from seeing with your own eye's, it will be picked apart here by these people. While they believe in thier own minds they are the answer to keeping us hunting down the road. Some actually even believe they are the country's greatest sheep hunters and will tell you so. The numbers posted are very much a joke and can be manipulated by either the resident or G/O to favor whatever.

Good Luck and Welcome. The site needs more like you.:-D


And less like u willy442...... The more posts, i read from u, makes me dislike g/o(which i have not had any probs with) If the g/o's are all as arrogant as u, then im on the band wagon for getting rid of them all...

[yukon john]

Many of us here were climbing, hiking and hunting the Kootenay mountains and other parts of BC when you were still sucking and wearing Pampers in Manitoba, so, show some respect or kindly STFU.


And many of us will be here climbing, hiking and hunting when your back in pampers....probably not that far away

[willy442]

I will, at any time, hike into the mountains anywhere in BC with Willy and will carry a pack that weighs as much as his plus a rifle and will match him mile for mile until one of us drops from fatigue and gives up. Willy has injuries, so do I and I am several years older than he is and still backpack.

This slagging of anyone who disagrees with him is a habit of Willy's, yet, while he loves to make foolish comments on others, he has yet to meet anyone to do it in person.

This is too bad, Willy knows a lot about the NE-BC sheep mountains and Stone's Sheep, but, he wastes his and our time with nasty remarks about others, when he could teach us all a lot and thereby gain credibility for his positions on G/Os, etc.

Would you like to do this, Willy, or will you PLEASE start posting the stuff that you know that I, for one, really would like to hear about?

I will continue to work with and assist true ethical sheep hunters as I have always done. Unfortunately many on here do not fall under that description or are to radical to be bothered with.
For yourself, you declare you have the experience and the ability, even with your old age, to get the job done. Hopefully you live long enough to aquire the knowledge I have over the years regarding Stone Sheep in the NE-BC, "although it be field level". You are not one I wish to share anything with.
Happy New Year

[willy442]

And less like u willy442...... The more posts, i read from u, makes me dislike g/o(which i have not had any probs with) If the g/o's are all as arrogant as u, then im on the band wagon for getting rid of them all...

Let me remind you. I HAVE NOT HAD ANY ASSOCIATION WITH GUIDING SINCE 1993. That is 17 years ago. I'm first and foremost a resident hunter. To bad for you and others on here if I fail to share your views. I have lived the life of a very successful sheep hunter and have observed a lot of things regarding that claim. I'm capable of forming my own opinions and making my own decisions and will continue to do so.
You can jump on any band wagon you want, your choice.

[Devilbear]

And many of us will be here climbing, hiking and hunting when your back in pampers....probably not that far away

I dunno, sonny, my pappy was over 80, born in the Kootenays in '04 and still fishing and working. I expect to hike and backpack camp into my 90s, but, who knows.

Pampers, nah, it's Depends for we old crocks! :)

[Devilbear]

I will continue to work with and assist true ethical sheep hunters as I have always done. Unfortunately many on here do not fall under that description or are to radical to be bothered with.
For yourself, you declare you have the experience and the ability, even with your old age, to get the job done. Hopefully you live long enough to aquire the knowledge I have over the years regarding Stone Sheep in the NE-BC, "although it be field level". You are not one I wish to share anything with.
Happy New Year

Well, OK, Willy, whatever you say. Happy New Year to you, too, and hopefully, you will decide to post on Stone's Sheep behaviour, as you have seen it. That, not "tips" for hunting, is what would interest me.

I don't know if I WILL ever find a ram I would shoot and could harvest the meat from; I am far more interested in studying wildlife than shooting them, so, I probably will not kill one. It is being in the mountains that excites me and I still do it every chance I get....but, I sure don't walk as fast as I did 30 years ago....we can agree on that, anyway.

[Kody94]

Tucho, Welcome to the site. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif Its always good to have serious sheep hunters bringing their perspective to discussions on sheep hunting. If we all had the same opinions this would get pretty boring. :)

Cheers
4Ster

ps: you and I have met...at the Cranbrook Gun Range...and we have a couple of mutual friends. Congrats on the Desert BH, by the way.

[Everett]

Geraci,Lancaster, and Connors are partly in zone 7 are they not?

All of Lancasters area is region 6 as for Cummins he does not hunt his whole territory for sheep there is several areas with Sheep that he does not hunt. How do I know he was kind enough to show me on a map.

[Kody94]

Geraci,Lancaster, and Connors are partly in zone 7 are they not?


Yes, that's correct, so is Bradford's.


All of Lancasters area is region 6 as for Cummins he does not hunt his whole territory for sheep there is several areas with Sheep that he does not hunt. How do I know was kind enough to show me on a map.

I was also under the impression that Geraci sold the Reg 7 portion of his area to Scoop Lk.

[whitetailsheds]

I was also under the impression that Geraci sold the Reg 7 portion of his area to Scoop Lk.

I believe this is true.....

[325 wsm]

DEVILBEAR WROTE THIS

I "might" want to hunt in the NWT and the Yukon, close family members pioneered there in the 1890s and both my wife and I worked there in our younger years. I might want to hunt on "the Prairies", family pioneered there in the 1880s and my wife's in the late 1870s, so, I am talking about BIRTHRIGHT.

THIS IS MY REPLY
Their is a law in the Yukon...Only the strong shall survive....obviously your family couldn't cut it and had to move....

[BlacktailStalker]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh... The off season.

[Devilbear]

The facts are that several members of my family worked and lived in the "Territories" from the "Gold Rush" until the mid-'70s, but, as people do, they died.

You WERE BORN there, of course? You "guide" here in BC, but, live in the Yukon?

BTW, can you recite Service from memory, my father could and I heard it for hours as a kid. He started in the "hardrock" gold mines of the West Kootenays 90 years ago, age 16....and we think that WE have it tough today!

[boxhitch]

I was also under the impression that Geraci sold the Reg 7 portion of his area to Scoop Lk.Not true
Scoop has an agreement to use part of Geracis area and sheep quota.
Not sure of the boundary but is reg 7 and 6.
May be the same area Bryan Martin used to have access to.

[Kody94]

Not true
Scoop has an agreement to use part of Geracis area and sheep quota.
Not sure of the boundary but is reg 7 and 6.
May be the same area Bryan Martin used to have access to.

The outfitter maps on-line seem to indicate that it is no longer part of Geraci's territory.

[bridger]

the fed has asked the moe if this is true but no response yet.

[PGK]

Good day everyone, I just got off my night shift, and I'm back. I am finding this very interesting. It's funny, how the most sarcastic of the bunch, sure don't like it when it's coming there way. Another interesting note is this know it all attitude some of these BCWF guys sport. One of my best friends and sheep hunting partner attended a BCWF meeting in Cranbrook. Feeling guilty I did not attend, I asked how it went. He told me every time someone "out of the loop" tried to talk, they got barraged with a staggering bunch of stats and nobody could really get a word in edge wise. I do think the BCWF is a great organization, and I have met some wonderful, insightful members(Les Husband). I am getting turned off the whole org. by a small group of them.

BINGO! That's exactly the problem with the bcwf

[Kody94]

Good day everyone, I just got off my night shift, and I'm back. I am finding this very interesting. It's funny, how the most sarcastic of the bunch, sure don't like it when it's coming there way. Another interesting note is this know it all attitude some of these BCWF guys sport. One of my best friends and sheep hunting partner attended a BCWF meeting in Cranbrook. Feeling guilty I did not attend, I asked how it went. He told me every time someone "out of the loop" tried to talk, they got barraged with a staggering bunch of stats and nobody could really get a word in edge wise. I do think the BCWF is a great organization, and I have met some wonderful, insightful members(Les Husband). I am getting turned off the whole org. by a small group of them.


BINGO! That's exactly the problem with the bcwf

I can completely understand that perception. And I can empathize with the folks that make other folks feel that way.

Most resident hunters are "ignorant" to the stats. Many of them also have long-held, deeply in-grained opinions about wildlife and how they should be managed. They are a function of their experience and environment.

The folks that have the stats, understand them well. They also tend to have a better understanding of the issues at 50,000 ft. They have patiently explained the stats and "first principles" of wildlife management to many, many people over a period of time. Their patience is wearing thin at times.

One thing both sets of people lose sight of is that managing wildlife is as much an art as a science. Its a public resource that should be managed the way the people want it managed. Unfortunately, the way the people want it managed isn't necessarily the way science tells you it should be managed. The only way to change the way the public want things managed, is to educate them why it should be managed differently. That's a huge job with a lot of very emotional arguments that become big hurdles.

When you get to a period of time like we are in now, where change has to happen in order to keep the number of hunters up so that we can continue our way of life, and there are conservation concerns affecting some species, but a recent over-abundance of others....its tough. People don't like change. But we know it has to happen. And the science shows some clear opportunities, that many folks don't really want to hear....

Its a pretty frustrating time for both of the types of people I described above. I get pissed off when I see a new guy get jumped all over because he asks a sincere question or has a perception based on his experience that is not consistent with what the "cognoscenti" think. But, I can see how frustrating it is to explain the same things over and over (I work in forest management...trust me, I know what its like).

I personally enjoy these types of threads, because even though the get heated, its often the heat that inspires a thorough examination of the issue and both sides get something out of it (greater mutual understanding).

I just really f'in hate seeing residents that are interested in learning more (or becoming involved! God forbid we get some new blood involved) get driven off this site or away from the BCWF because they get accused of being an outfitter or against other residents, before they even get a chance of clearly explaining why they feel the way they do, or an opportunity to learn a little about why others have a different opinion.

[BCrams]

and I have met some wonderful, insightful members(Les Husband). I am getting turned off the whole org. by a small group of them.

I know Les as well. You will find he is indeed insightful and with a one on one conversation you will see that he will support those ' stats ' fellows too. :-D

SSSSter explained it really well which doesn't need repeating. Hunters by and large are very opinionated and feel they know whats best.

Take for example one of the most simple explanations that hunters should be able to understand ..... .... "Carrying Capacity"

No matter how many times it is explained, the guys still just don't get it and don't support the regulation changes and removal of point restrictions to mitigate the negative impact on populations and valuable habitat when the species approaches and exceeds carrying capacity.

[Devilbear]

The first BCWF meeting I ever attended was back in the 1980s and I found everyone very welcoming and eager to have me participate. I had quite a few years of volunteer conservation activity and wilderness work behind me by that time and challenged a couple of MOE "boffins" on what I considered their inappropriate attitudes toward we resident "peons"; the immediate result of which was that the sitting Lower Mainland Executive asked me if I would join them as I did.

My impression of the BCWF and it's many volunteers whom I have known for decades is VERY positive and it is the only conservation organization to which I now belong. I am one of the original founders of a couple of BC environmental organizations, however, I left those when they were infiltrated and taken over by extremist elements and the sneaky N.D.P. types, trying to obtain votes for their totalitarian policies.

The BCWF is not "perfect", no human individual or group is, however, I find that anyone who is truely interested on conservation is made welcome and there is LOTS of scope to help with the very serious threat to BC's environment and the organisms it contains.

I might add, here, that wildlife management, fisheries management and forestry have never really BEEN practiced here in BC; we are still so close to the "frontier days" and the corporate ethos of gouge, grab and who cares about the biosphere, that we have seen little concern for scientific environmental research, management or education of the public at large.

An "art", a "science", call it what you will, we need to fund a LOT more of it and soon, as we are in far worse straits than many think. However, it seems to be much more socially acceptable to host the "Olympics" and that attitude is a large part of our problem.