trouble on the klappan.

[bridger]

Northwest Fish & Wildlife Conservation Association

137 Parry Place

Prince Rupert, B.C.

V8J 4B1

December 29, 2009

Mr. Ralph Archibald
Environmental Stewardship Division
Ministry of Environment
Box 9339 Stn. Prov. Gov’t.
Victoria B.C. V8W 9M1

Re - Klappan River Road Blockade and Subsequent Proposed Wildlife Management Changes.

Dear Ralph,

The Northwest Fish and Wildlife Conservation Association membership (The Regional Branch of the B.C. Wildlife Federation), wish to express their extreme disgust and
frustration towards the illegal road blockade on the Klappan River Road that occurred in September of this year.

Government and the two policing agencies responsible for enforcing the law failed to protect legal rights, opportunities, property and safety of many citizens. The illegal behavior of certain Tahltan Band Members and lack of punishment for their illegal behavior now demonstrates to First Nations people that breaking the law leads to
successful campaigning that discriminates and unjustly hinders other law abiding citizens of British Columbia .

Government behavior and subsequent lack of action by policing agencies makes a mockery of the Canadian Justice System, now viewed by us as an internal attach on our Sovereignty!

At the Skeena Hunters Advisory Committee meeting held Dec. 12, 2009 in Smithers. Regional M.O.E. Manager Tom Bell revealed to the committee a joint proposal from
M.O.E. staff and the Tahltan Band that would unjustly impact resident hunters of British Columbia. Reducing the hunting season for moose in Region 6-19 to 6-29 by 30 days, reducing the hunting season by 60 days in portions of 6-20 and putting the Stikine, Pitman and Chuckachida Rivers on L.E.H. for moose are management proposals that are neither scientifically or socially defensible.

It is our contention that the illusion of scarcity being promoted by certain members of the Tahltan Band is part of a propaganda smear campaign to deliberately discredit resident hunters.

It is also our contention and supported by M.O.E. Biologists that the moose populations in regions 6-19 thru 6-29 are robust and no infringement of Aboriginal
hunting rights exists.

While we are prepared to enter into further discussion with your staff in Smithers regarding a game check station on the Klappan River Road it would be our expectation
that the station would be run professionally and without prejudice and that all hunters including guided non-residents and F.N. be obliged to report their activity and success.

We are also prepared to discuss with your Smithers staff logistics and workability of a compulsory inspection center at or near Tatogga Lake Resort. Again we would expect all hunters including F.N. and non-residents to report their harvest.

Our members feel that they as resident hunters have been deliberately targeted with no mention of the harvest and impact of non-residents. We are aware that for many species in the area harvest is dominated by non-residents and not residents as touted by some.

Spatsizi, Stikine, Chuckachita, Pitman and Edziza areas are prime examples.

In closing I wish to point out that revising hunting regulations and then doing inventory work is completely backwards. There are no conservation concerns for moose anywhere in the area of concern but there is certainly an optics issue.

May we suggest running the game check station, doing inventory work and then come back to the table to see if management changes are required.

Yours in Conservation

Ken Franzen – Chair N.F.W.C.A.

[Devilbear]

I completely support this proposal and this is an excellent letter; however, it will have NO effect as the government is, quite obviously, going to mollify the aboriginal demands by giving them any hunting and fishing "rights" that they demand. They can break the law with impunity and the increasing threats of violence and war seem to intimidate both politicians and civil servants.....where is Sir John. A. when we need him........????

What CAN we do? My new policy is simple, I ALWAYS stop in the bush or on the highway to offer assistance to ANY person(s) who appear in distress of ANY type and have done since I started hunting and driving. I will NOT stop, assist or even communicate with ANY person(s) who appear to be aboriginal at ANY time in future.

I am going to carry the "Wildlife Act", the "Criminal Code of Canada" and the firearms regs. in my vehicle at all times and govern my conduct rigidly by "the letter of the law"....NO more "hitchhikers" around Mt. Currie, for example, NO more sharing my spare gas with aboriginals who have "run out" and NO more assistance pulling old beaters stuck in the mud with my 4x4......I am sure I can think of more ways of "fighting back" with time.

We resident taxpaying citizens of BC/Canada are being f**ked over by government and we CAN do things to make it unpleasant for those who are involved, politically for politicians and by a refusal to cooperate with, assist or even interact with the aboriginals...we have the numbers, we simply need to "get tough" and stand tall for OUR rights!

[Angel]

great letter and very well written. I sure hope something can be done because this F.N. blockades and illegal actions are sure getting tiresome with no government involvement to resolve this issue. Im sure this will still be the case for the coming hunting season. Good luck and I sure hope you can help to make a change to our MOE.

[sawmill]

Seems like the FN are becoming their own worst enemies.
Years ago the Gov. chopped the moose season around Smithers/Hazelton to 6 friggen days.The reason?They said they had grossly under estimated the FN harvest,therefore non natives will have to lose 90% of their season.Up there almost every body hunts moose,that`s a lot of money saving meat in the freezer when you get one.
Hardly seems like a good way to foster good relations with the FN.
Oh well,the work has gone to shit anyway up there,I`m glad I left when I did.I hear the New Town Pub in New Hazelton has closed down.That`s gotta hurt them:mrgreen:

[bigwhiteys]

I have written 6 or 7 letters now to MOE regarding this issue.. I'll copy/paste this one and send it again.

Some friends of mine in Prince Rupert were negatively effected by these roadblocks and had a midnight run in with the local natives in the Klappan area this year that was none to friendly.

Carl

[tomahawk]

Great letter, this might be a dream but maybe someday these types of actions will be dealt with in a timely manner.

[Bowtime]

It is our contention that the illusion of scarcity being promoted by certain members of the Tahltan Band is part of a propaganda smear campaign to deliberately discredit resident hunters.

It is also our contention and supported by M.O.E. Biologists that the moose populations in regions 6-19 thru 6-29 are robust and no infringement of Aboriginal
hunting rights exists.


Ken Franzen – Chair N.F.W.C.A.


Well put Ken. Hope someone listens.

[The Hermit]

That letter needs to be sent to the national press!! It should also be sent to the Minister of Solicitor General, and the Premier!!

The only criticism of it I have is that there is no "call to action" or request for a reply. Both need to be very explicit and are necessary in order to begin documenting the Ministry's action, or lack there of.

[Angel]

[quote=behemoth;596578]
why dont we keep personal arguments to PM's so maybe one Thread regarding this issue can stay open without being closed because of peoples arguments. This is directed to everyone.

[Mik]

Excellent letter, well written and thank you.

[Wild one]

Good letter and I hope (but I don't have faith in our gov) that the gov will step up and correct this to benefit all groups not just one.

[BCrams]

Great letter. Regarding the following:



Reducing the hunting season for moose in Region 6-19 to 6-29 by 30 days, reducing the hunting season by 60 days in portions of 6-20 and putting the Stikine, Pitman and Chuckachida Rivers on L.E.H. for moose are management proposals that are neither scientifically or socially defensible.



Does anyone know if the season reduction affect the GO's operating in the area? I understand some outfits are First Nation's owned?

If said river corridors go on LEH for moose, do the GO's still get to guide clients at will in these limited entry areas?

I disagree with the roadblocks, the proposed season reduction and LEH proposal. What I do agree with is having an unbiased game check station.

[BimmerBob]

I think the intent of the letter is very good however, I noticed one mistake in a key point that should be fixed prior to it being sent to the press and maybe even a follow up to the original addressee to ensure no misunderstanding.

Here is the mistake I am speaking about:

"Government behaviour and subsequent lack of action by policing agencies makes a mockery of the Canadian Justice System, now viewed by us as an internal attach on our Sovereignty!"

Simple spelling error that can be missed in a spell check as it created another word. I believe the writer intended to write attack. Most will overlook it, but it does impact what is otherwise a well intentioned letter.

There are a few sentence structure issues that should also be addressed to make it a bit more polished. My feeling is, when letters of this sort need to be sent, careful review for grammar and spelling make them much more effective as any mistakes tend to reduce the impact in the mind of the bureaucracy receiving them.


This is meant as constructive criticism only, hope nobody is offended.

Cheers, Bob

[Devilbear]

I agree, all too often, raw emotion is expressed in an illiterate fashion in letters of this type and the "antis" then use this to popularize an image of hunters as "lowbrow" and "unlettered" bloodthirsty killers. While I do not want to govern my behaviour by the standards of "antis"; I DO want to obtain the desired effect of taking the time to write letters and thus am very careful to use correct grammar and spelling.

[Deadshot]

Great letter!
The guides will hunt at will in those corridors, guaranteed.
LEH or not, they'll keep blocking the roads. They have nothing better to do.
Sounds like the gov. is prepared to bend us over for some deadbeats.

[Elkhound]

why dont we keep personal arguments to PM's so maybe one Thread regarding this issue can stay open without being closed because of peoples arguments. This is directed to everyone.

Well said Angel. A good debate is always needed as long as it stays civil

[srupp]

Well written letter. It always is a good policy to include the writers course of action in "the round" that should no action or reply is recieved within a "reasonable timeframe " that the individual who is been sent the letter will have his superior/supervisor made aware of the lack of reply or reasonable action....EVERYONE has a BOSS..:mrgreen:..nothing is ever acomplished in private..

cheers
Srupp

[behemoth]

My point was that we cant fight racism with more racism, as Devilbear's post suggests

[Devilbear]

That is PURE BULLSHIT and typical of the whining that prevents equitable and rational discussions here and on certain other forums. I have NO responsibility for any other person(s) and simply have decided to totally avoid and eliminate ANY interaction with those who DO break the law, discriminate against other BC NATIVE BORN citizens and openly threaten violence against legitimate hunters.

It's really ironic, we can pay and pay and pay and be told that we are mere "whiteys" who have no rights; yet, when I choose a non-confrontational and peaceful means to deal with these situations, I am a "racist", what a crock!

Again, the REAL "racism" and flagrant disregard for Canadian law is shown by the aboriginals, not by we decent citizens.....and, maybe I AM being too "soft" and we should request assistance from JTF2.

[bridger]

if this situation really upsets you write a letter to the premiere or archibald. this letter has been replied to but with the usual government bs. this is just one example of how our hunting opportunites are going south. Don't want to sound like a broken record guys, but get off the fence and join the bcwf and send a donation to www.residentpriority.ca (http://www.residentpriority.ca)
there is strength in numbers. hunting is a political issue and will only be preserved in the political arena.

[Angel]

I dont think any letter i would write we be that well written......:mrgreen:
But still I support and contribute to BCWF and other organization to try and help the cause. It would be nice our MOE could help back up resident hunters. I am all for game checks and reporting what you catch. Any resident hunter who hunts legally and follows the regs shouldn't have a problem with it either. It would just be a big shame if things continue this way because our hunting rights will just diminish more and more because of other who break the law. I speak both of poachers and the native roadblocks, they are all hurting our resident hunter's name and opportunities.

[weatherby_man]

That is PURE BULLSHIT and typical of the whining that prevents equitable and rational discussions here and on certain other forums. I have NO responsibility for any other person(s) and simply have decided to totally avoid and eliminate ANY interaction with those who DO break the law, discriminate against other BC NATIVE BORN citizens and openly threaten violence against legitimate hunters.

It's really ironic, we can pay and pay and pay and be told that we are mere "whiteys" who have no rights; yet, when I choose a non-confrontational and peaceful means to deal with these situations, I am a "racist", what a crock!

Again, the REAL "racism" and flagrant disregard for Canadian law is shown by the aboriginals, not by we decent citizens.....and, maybe I AM being too "soft" and we should request assistance from JTF2.

This is true, but its actually just "some" aboriginals. This can also be applied to other situations/peoples.

I'm sick to death of political correctness. Use of the word "racism" has become so commonplace and meaningless that I barf and tune out as soon as someone uses the term in a discussion like this.

I am all for using the full force of the law against people who thumb their nose at it and the rest of us law-abiding people, however when the law wont be applied by the governing body, what can one do?

If it all continues in its current drainhole pattern what will be the result is vigilante justice. I dont want it or wish for it, but its a logical outcome.

[Gateholio]

T
I'm sick to death of political correctness. Use of the word "racism" has become so commonplace and meaningless that I barf and tune out as soon as someone uses the term in a discussion like this.



Me too......

[325 wsm]

Get a spot device and activate the 911 function everytime you come to a roadblock. After all it is a life threatening situation is it not! Then get your friends to go there after you and do the same thing.

[Devilbear]

That was, obviously, my point. I am also concerned about ...vigilante justice...as I am afraid that this is exactly what WILL happen...and NOBODY wins in such circumstances.

[behemoth]

I I will NOT stop, assist or even communicate with ANY person(s) who appear to be aboriginal at ANY time in future.



I dont think I being polically correct. If the above statement is not black and white racism, I'm not sure what is?:confused:

[Gateholio]

I dont think I being polically correct. If the above statement is not black and white racism, I'm not sure what is?:confused:

How is it racism? Because he has decided who he will and will not assist?

It's a persons choice who he will talk to and assist...

I had a break down 60kms from any town, on a fairly remote road. A woman stopped and told me she wouldn't give me a ride because I was a male.

Sexism? Nope. Her car, her rules.

[KodiakHntr]

How is it racism? Because he has decided who he will and will not assist?



Decided it, BASED ON RACE.....

[behemoth]

How is it racism? Because he has decided who he will and will not assist?

It's a persons choice who he will talk to and assist...

I had a break down 60kms from any town, on a fairly remote road. A woman stopped and told me she wouldn't give me a ride because I was a male.

Sexism? Nope. Her car, her rules.


His statement includes that he will not communicate with any person of aboriginal descent at any time in the future

So if he goes into a restaurant and the person serving him is an aboriginal, would it be ok for him to refuse to be served because he will not communicate with anyone of aboriginal descent? His wallet, his rules?

[KodiakHntr]

I'm pretty sure thats exactly what he is saying behemoth....He'll ask for a different server because he won't speak to one who is of aboriginal descent....

[BimmerBob]

I think it is time for a few to look up the meaning in a dictionary...

Deciding based upon race is NOT racism, it is discrimination but not racism... and making a discriminating decision is allowed as far as I can tell. Saying that someone is a discriminating decision maker is a compliment is it not?

[KodiakHntr]

I completely support this proposal and this is an excellent letter; however, it will have NO effect as the government is, quite obviously, going to mollify the aboriginal demands by giving them any hunting and fishing "rights" that they demand. They can break the law with impunity and the increasing threats of violence and war seem to intimidate both politicians and civil servants.....where is Sir John. A. when we need him........????

What CAN we do? My new policy is simple, I ALWAYS stop in the bush or on the highway to offer assistance to ANY person(s) who appear in distress of ANY type and have done since I started hunting and driving. I will NOT stop, assist or even communicate with ANY person(s) who appear to be aboriginal at ANY time in future.

I am going to carry the "Wildlife Act", the "Criminal Code of Canada" and the firearms regs. in my vehicle at all times and govern my conduct rigidly by "the letter of the law"....NO more "hitchhikers" around Mt. Currie, for example, NO more sharing my spare gas with aboriginals who have "run out" and NO more assistance pulling old beaters stuck in the mud with my 4x4......I am sure I can think of more ways of "fighting back" with time.

We resident taxpaying citizens of BC/Canada are being f**ked over by government and we CAN do things to make it unpleasant for those who are involved, politically for politicians and by a refusal to cooperate with, assist or even interact with the aboriginals...we have the numbers, we simply need to "get tough" and stand tall for OUR rights!

Well I certainly hope that some poor woman or child doesn't freeze to death on the side of a road somewhere because ol' Dewey doesn't want to associate with someone who may have never even HEARD of Klappan Road...




*Post quoted for posterity....Red italic my addition.*

[BlacktailStalker]

This race b.s topic is the most annoying one on HBC and has been pummelled to death.

[Sitkaspruce]

Another post going friggin side ways.......AGAIN!!!!!!

Lets keep this to the facts and not BS over what one says.

Now if we could just direct some folks energy away from the BS on here and direct it towards the real reason this and other good posts are posted.

Great letter and lets try to ALL get on board with this and a few others because while we sit at our desks and argue about crap that does not need to be on a hunting site, our rights as hunters and fishers is being eroded away.

Cheers

SS

[behemoth]

This race b.s topic is the most annoying one on HBC and has been pummelled to death.

I agree, I wish the mods would just delete the racist comments instead of defending them. Its rule number 3 of the forum.

If this was done then people wouldnt have to point out bad behaviour and derail the threads

[Gateholio]

If an individual chooses not to associate with a group of people, it really has nothing to do with Rule #3 or the mods...

Some of you guys play the "racism" card so quickly, that the term has lost all it's meaning.

[BlacktailStalker]

Yes but some people need to just roll their eyes and not kick start the 'war' unless it clearly breaks the rules, how you interpret it isnt necessarily so. The ones that seem to be the cause of that on a continual basis will be dealt with as would somebody who actually comes across as a racist.
Devilbears post is within his rights.
There are no negative comments directed towards/at a race.
Its his choice to do what he pleases should he see somebody stranded.

[Dmytro]

discriminate against other BC NATIVE BORN citizens

I think you crossed the line with this particular comment by discriminating "native born" citizens and citizens born elsewhere in this country on this planet... A BC resident is a BC resident irrespective of the place of birth.

In broader context I personally disagree with the whole concept of giving somebody special rights like it is for example done with first nations in Canada. Imagine if this logic were applied in Europe for example- you would have to peel back centuries of wars and conquest and sort our who owes who and for what. A democracy is supposed to treat everybody the same from the moment that it is established, and the moment it stops doing that it is no longer a democracy...

[BimmerBob]

I agree, I wish the mods would just delete the racist comments instead of defending them. Its rule number 3 of the forum.

If this was done then people wouldnt have to point out bad behaviour and derail the threads

Pot?? Kettle?? Black??

Try using a PM (which is what I should have done too!) Just trying to put some levity into it, my apologies to those trying to keep it serious.

[Devilbear]

It is always the same old few that make the same old comments and because they KNOW that the situation concerning special "rights" for SOME and this IS based on "race", is fundamentally flawed and unacceptable in a democratic, egalitarian society. The REAL issue is that MOST native-born BC citizens ARE being denied their LEGAL rights in this and other all too commonplace situations of a similar nature....and, there IS, as I pointed out a non-violent and lawful way of fighting back.......

The last aboriginal "server" I dealt with was on Highway 16 last Sept. and I spent considerable time, on my short vacation, assisting her with obtaining entry to a BC post-secondary institution......curmudgeonly old "racist" that I am........gawd, some here make me chuckle......

The current "cutting edge" opinion among working scientists who study the human genome, btw, is tending to see the concept of "race" as being a spurious "construct" and not a biological phenomenon. In this respect, since I studied both biology and literature at college, I am reminded of the late American poet, Charles Olson's line, ...there are only eyes in all heads, to be looked out of....and some "vision" certainly would not hurt a few here.

[bforce750]

[quote=Dmytro;596868]I think you crossed the line with this particular comment by discriminating "native born" citizens and citizens born elsewhere in this country on this planet... A BC resident is a BC resident irrespective of the place of birth.

In broader context I personally disagree with the whole concept of giving somebody special rights like it is for example done with first nations in Canada. Imagine if this logic were applied in Europe for example- you would have to peel back centuries of wars and conquest and sort our who owes who and for what. A democracy is supposed to treat everybody the same from the moment that it is established, and the moment it stops doing that it is no longer a democracy...[/quote CLEARLY thats NOT happening:confused:

[Devilbear]

Dmytro, my purpose is because the situation is BASED on birth and whose ancestors came first. The fact is that all BC RESIDENTS are NOT CITIZENS and thus are NOT completely equal under the laws of Canada and BC.

So, my usage is very precise and makes the point I consider worth the effort here, that ALL native-born BC citizens are equal. Others MAY or may not obtain this through Canadian citizenship and BC residency, but, only people born here have it from birth, as do aboriginals and that is what I wanted to stress, as this is where the problem lies.

[BimmerBob]

I think you crossed the line with this particular comment by discriminating "native born" citizens and citizens born elsewhere in this country on this planet... A BC resident is a BC resident irrespective of the place of birth.

I hear you on that point Dmytro but I have to lean a bit in Devilbear's direction, it seems that as more and more city dwellers have emigrated to this country and gained political influence it has gotten to be more difficult for the ones that have been here for generations to continue to practice our traditions. I was born here, as my parents, grandparents and great grandparents were (since 1724 on my mother's side). I feel just as native as some of the FN's and have a great number of friends that are FN but I don't feel my rights are being protected as I see the militant FN youth try to derive some additional benefit due to the fact their ancestors were somehow mistreated. (Lots were but most of the complainers are not related to them)


In broader context I personally disagree with the whole concept of giving somebody special rights like it is for example done with first nations in Canada. Imagine if this logic were applied in Europe for example- you would have to peel back centuries of wars and conquest and sort our who owes who and for what. A democracy is supposed to treat everybody the same from the moment that it is established, and the moment it stops doing that it is no longer a democracy...

On this point you are not correct. There are democracies around the world that only citizens have the right to vote and you can't become a citizen unless you were born of citizen parents. Immigrants never have that right no matter if they live for generations within the country. Japan is a case in point. Non citizens cannot purchase property in some countries.

But... your point is taken, in this country called Canada, we are all considered to be equal. Well... except that some are considered more equal than others...

[Gateholio]

So.............How about we get back to discussing the Klappan Rd issue specifically?

[Jagermeister]

Referring to this post, and this post only. It matters not whether it is the Klappan or some area in Ontario, the federal or provincial justice departments are not taking on lawbreaking First Nations. It does send a message that the First Nations are above the laws of Canada. Stating this is not racism and the justice systems better start nipping it in the bud and quit appeasing the law breakers at the expense of the law abiding citizens. If our rights and freedoms as a Canadian citizen cannot be protected, we may have to take steps to protect our rights and freedoms!
When will it ever end?





Northwest Fish & Wildlife Conservation Association


137 Parry Place


Prince Rupert, B.C.


V8J 4B1


December 29, 2009

Mr. Ralph Archibald
Environmental Stewardship Division
Ministry of Environment
Box 9339 Stn. Prov. Gov’t.
Victoria B.C. V8W 9M1

Re - Klappan River Road Blockade and Subsequent Proposed Wildlife Management Changes.

Dear Ralph,

The Northwest Fish and Wildlife Conservation Association membership (The Regional Branch of the B.C. Wildlife Federation), wish to express their extreme disgust and
frustration towards the illegal road blockade on the Klappan River Road that occurred in September of this year.

Government and the two policing agencies responsible for enforcing the law failed to protect legal rights, opportunities, property and safety of many citizens. The illegal behavior of certain Tahltan Band Members and lack of punishment for their illegal behavior now demonstrates to First Nations people that breaking the law leads to
successful campaigning that discriminates and unjustly hinders other law abiding citizens of British Columbia .

Government behavior and subsequent lack of action by policing agencies makes a mockery of the Canadian Justice System, now viewed by us as an internal attach on our Sovereignty!

At the Skeena Hunters Advisory Committee meeting held Dec. 12, 2009 in Smithers. Regional M.O.E. Manager Tom Bell revealed to the committee a joint proposal from
M.O.E. staff and the Tahltan Band that would unjustly impact resident hunters of British Columbia. Reducing the hunting season for moose in Region 6-19 to 6-29 by 30 days, reducing the hunting season by 60 days in portions of 6-20 and putting the Stikine, Pitman and Chuckachida Rivers on L.E.H. for moose are management proposals that are neither scientifically or socially defensible.

It is our contention that the illusion of scarcity being promoted by certain members of the Tahltan Band is part of a propaganda smear campaign to deliberately discredit resident hunters.

It is also our contention and supported by M.O.E. Biologists that the moose populations in regions 6-19 thru 6-29 are robust and no infringement of Aboriginal
hunting rights exists.

While we are prepared to enter into further discussion with your staff in Smithers regarding a game check station on the Klappan River Road it would be our expectation
that the station would be run professionally and without prejudice and that all hunters including guided non-residents and F.N. be obliged to report their activity and success.

We are also prepared to discuss with your Smithers staff logistics and workability of a compulsory inspection center at or near Tatogga Lake Resort. Again we would expect all hunters including F.N. and non-residents to report their harvest.

Our members feel that they as resident hunters have been deliberately targeted with no mention of the harvest and impact of non-residents. We are aware that for many species in the area harvest is dominated by non-residents and not residents as touted by some.

Spatsizi, Stikine, Chuckachita, Pitman and Edziza areas are prime examples.

In closing I wish to point out that revising hunting regulations and then doing inventory work is completely backwards. There are no conservation concerns for moose anywhere in the area of concern but there is certainly an optics issue.

May we suggest running the game check station, doing inventory work and then come back to the table to see if management changes are required.

Yours in Conservation

Ken Franzen – Chair N.F.W.C.A.

[Confused]

maybe this will help get things back on track, as far as the thread is concerned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxzqMAts-60

[325 wsm]

Call 911 from the blockade location...the RCMP must respond.....After enough 911 responses they will realize something must be done. If your not in cell phone service use your spot messenger and activate the 911 button. When they arrive tell them your safety was in jeopardy due to the blockaders weilding weapons (broken beer bottle that is now lying in the ditch etc.)and ask that charges be laid and the blockade cleared. If the RCMP refuse to protect your rights tell them you will wait there and give them enough time to get back to town before you call 911 again.

[weatherby_man]

maybe this will help get things back on track, as far as the thread is concerned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxzqMAts-60

Thats one piece of contrived BS right there!

[Gateholio]

maybe this will help get things back on track, as far as the thread is concerned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxzqMAts-60


They sound very uninformed. They want shorter seasons and LEH, and moose inventory counts, because there aren't enough moose.

But they don't know how many moose are there!:mrgreen:

[weatherby_man]

Call 911 from the blockade location...the RCMP must respond.....After enough 911 responses they will realize something must be done. If your not in cell phone service use your spot messenger and activate the 911 button. When they arrive tell them your safety was in jeopardy due to the blockaders weilding weapons (broken beer bottle that is now lying in the ditch etc.)and ask that charges be laid and the blockade cleared. If the RCMP refuse to protect your rights tell them you will wait there and give them enough time to get back to town before you call 911 again.

Unfortunately you'd likely be arrested for abuse of the 911 system, and possibly endangerment for dragging the RCMP out there and away from other things they should have been attending to. And possibly someone you didnt mean to affect would be affected while trying to get help for a real life threatening issue.

[Gateholio]

Call 911 from the blockade location...the RCMP must respond.....After enough 911 responses they will realize something must be done. If your not in cell phone service use your spot messenger and activate the 911 button. When they arrive tell them your safety was in jeopardy due to the blockaders weilding weapons (broken beer bottle that is now lying in the ditch etc.)and ask that charges be laid and the blockade cleared. If the RCMP refuse to protect your rights tell them you will wait there and give them enough time to get back to town before you call 911 again.
Is it a 911 serviced area?

Might have to call the emergency number of the local detachment.

[BimmerBob]

I have seen the politicizing of various government service organizations over the past 20 years or so, where organizations become misdirected in their aims due to politically appointed leadership.

In this case the Ministry of Environment is acting in a political way rather than dealing with their stated purpose of protecting the environment. So, rather than ensure access for all, they allow some to usurp the rights of others through illegal activity. They allow this through inaction, and in some cases encourage it through their misdirected politically motivated actions of unbalanced resource allocation.

In a parallel, during my tenure with BC Hydro, I saw the organization become more and more political in its response to dealing with issues. Rather than ensure the sustainability of the "power delivery system" or doing the building required to ensure it's "generating and power storage assets" were adequate to meet the needs of British Columbia, it created feel good politically correct programs of staff advancement, stakeholder participation and organizational alignments to mask its executive ineptitude. The PC's within the organizations accounting groups took over the company executive and bungled their way to the top, creating a mess for the utility professionals within to take care of, in spite of the "systems" they were forced to work with. The absolute waste and resources that went into these systems, that they were specifically told not to do by those responsible within the operations groups, are mind boggling.

So... to keep this on thread... I think this letter should be sent to the political side of government as well as the professionals within the ministry. I would recommend that copies go to the local MLA's, MP's and to the Minster responsible so that they feel some political heat for their inept and ignorant management of the situation.

[weatherby_man]

That video is decently produced and will likely stir up a lot of anti-sentiment of course but as GH said they dont know how many moose are there.

I find it disturbing they would like to stop hunters killing "their" moose? How many moose do the indians take from the area ever year? Is it less than resident hunters? Is it more? They dont mention their ability to hunt moose regardless of seasons either.

Oh and they have the nerve to link it to the sockeye fishery on the Fraser river? I dont know about you, but I dont think hunters had much impact on the sockeye in the Fraser the last few years.

Sentiment dirven video with no facts.

Sounds like the original post suggestion of checking stations is the logical start to determine harvest rates (on all sides).

[325 wsm]

If someone is threatening you I would believe you would have every right to use 911, but I,m not sure if DISEASE lake has 911 coverage and I guess using the 911 should be a last resort if the RCMP do not remove a known blockade. Just thinking that the squeekiest wheel gets greased. As far as getting arrested for something like that.....maybe if you did it repeatedly. But if your not willing to take a chance and stand up for your rights you don't deserve any.
Maybe it's not the best way to deal with the problem so lets hear some better ones. And don't tell me about writing letters and joining the BCWLF.

[weatherby_man]

If someone is threatening you I would believe you would have every right to use 911, but I,m not sure if DISEASE lake has 911 coverage and I guess using the 911 should be a last resort if the RCMP do not remove a known blockade. Just thinking that the squeekiest wheel gets greased. As far as getting arrested for something like that.....maybe if you did it repeatedly. But if your not willing to take a chance and stand up for your rights you don't deserve any.
Maybe it's not the best way to deal with the problem so lets hear some better ones. And don't tell me about writing letters and joining the BCWLF.

I totally understand where you are coming from, just that I think it may backfire.

If there where threats involved it would be different but you'd need to videotape it or something. It would otherwise be word against word and if there more on their side defending the story you'd lose.

[kebes]

That video made me so mad.

[BimmerBob]

Ask them politely to "remove their shite from the public roadway" and if they don't you have the right to remove it yourself, do you not?

Oh... I posted a comment on the video, suggest that others do as well...

[Jagermeister]

Nothing will happen to the blockade until force is met with force. The RCMP will not respond until there is a serious confrontation between stakeholders. The only course of action is for a very large number of hunters turn out to hunt the area at the same time and force the issue.
So, who's going to be Custer?

[Jelvis]

It's provincial vs federal like always, and the federal have more power as usual, won't change in our lifetime. Rcmp are federal, status Indians are federal. Indian Act federal -- BC Wildlife Act is provincial --
-- the Canadian Constitution vs the BC Wild Life Act --
It's kinda lopsided a bit. The Canadian gov't telling the provinces what happens.
jElvi$

[pete_k]

That’s a great letter Ken. Where did you learn to write like that?
I found it to be fair and straight forward.
Anyway. I will put together something similar and email it off. It will be largely based on what you have written here.

Now you mentioned donating to Resident Priority.
How is the donation money spent? Anyone on payroll?
Is hiring a professional lobbyist on the agenda?

[palmer]

I think the first thing to do is have someone,who had received an LEH for the area and drove all that way just to be turned away; start a legal action against THE BAND to recover costs of the missed hunt. You win that one in court and it makes ILLEGAL road blocks very expensive. They blocked the road with NO factual evidence, they should have to pay costs. Maybe one of the lawyers on here can give more insite.

MY 2 cents

[Jelvis]

hey palmer, and where you getting the money for that? You better have a million dollars to fight the feds.
j you'll go broke doing that real fast and on top of that be classed as a trouble maker by the feds.

[BimmerBob]

Jelly, the Band is not the Feds... and the leaders of the Band might be a better target, personal suit against them and use the video as evidence.

[Jagermeister]

hey palmer, and where you getting the money for that? You better have a million dollars to fight the feds.
j you'll go broke doing that real fast and on top of that be classed as a trouble maker by the feds.
Palmer's idea is very plausible.
I got to wondering after watching the video that Confused posted, what makes the Talthan or any other FN group think that they have a devine right to the wildlife? Afterall, did the Creator not make us all?
Maybe the Talthan should reveal how many moose they have "harvested" over the course of a year, sort of start the ball rolling.

[Jelvis]

Bimm what do you mean the band ain't the feds? I think the only person you could try confronting is the one on the road trying to block it at the time. There is more game there than moose.

[BimmerBob]

Bimm what do you mean the band ain't the feds? I think the only person you could try confronting is the one on the road trying to block it at the time.

What I mean is that the band is a legal entity unto itself. You should be able to sue the band as the named party of a law suit. The Federal gov't will backstop them with money but you may be able to get a cease and decist order against them to stop the flow.

On the video that was posted it had the Band Chief and another Band Officer speaking on behalf of the blockade, you could therefore sue them personally could you not? (especially since they provided their names and positions on the vid)

Just thinking out loud here, Bob

[Jelvis]

Ok Jager go and do it then if it's going to work. Go up and charge the guy then go to court and see if you can pioneer a settlement. lol-
Otherwise I'm sure you can drive around a short nylon rope and a couple pieces of wood. What's stopping you but your doubt and fear because you don't really know your own rights, if you did you'd drive around it.
If that was you doing that on a road blocking me, I'd drive right around you and smile while doing it.
jp -- do one thing or the other or nothing at all --

[bridger]

why do our threads always get hijacked by a few guys that can't stay on track? this is a pretty simple issue. the first nations in region 6 are playing hard ball and our government ( which we elected) is listening to people that are extremists. some members instead of getting together to do something constructive fail to face the issues and come up with lots of ways to divert our attention from the problem at hand. I will say it again this is a political issue and politics is basically a numbers game. It is time get off the fence and face the issues before us.

[Jelvis]

bridger I'd drive right around you to, if I really thought you were wrong in doing that, which you would be and them too for blocking a public road.
If you know it's illegal then why would'nt you drive around three short pieces of firewood and a six foot nylon rope? You know why. I got a good idea.
Jel--your too scared to drive around cuz you don't uphold your right to do so, and waiting for some one (they) to help you across, lol. holding your hand -

[bridger]

Not many people can understand your posts and I unfortunately am one of them. don't need to go through the blockade. A huge public outcry and pubic pressure on the politcians is what we can do. if that fails then direct action needs to be taken. the only reason fn blockade roads is thaey no government won't do anything. remember oka?

[weatherby_man]

Jellys maybe onto something.

You'd need multiple vehicles willing to drive in and around. If everyone wants to stay a while to hunt leave a few members at camp at all times to protect the camp and alternate and do your hunting. Then drive out together with the moose racks on the hoods! To be safe videotape the entire thing and have multiple video cameras ready.

[Jelvis]

Your putting off your right to drive down a public road because?
if you call three pieces of fire wood and a six foot quarter inch nylon rope a blockade and refuse to drive by then that's your choice. No one is stopping you, you just don't have the guts to drive by and want to call the cops.
Huge public outcry, to who? Whose going to listen to someone who won't drive around 3 pieces of firewood?
The government won't do anything? Which one?
jp face the music and drive around. If that were you on the road, I'd remove you, so I could cross.
by keeping you busy talking at me, while buddy drove the truck by and then hop in and wave bye bye.

[bridger]

its easy to understand when you put it that way. lol i agree.

[Devilbear]

Well, ol' jelly has a point, here. If, a few guys in 2-3 trucks with video cameras simply drove through the barricade, tape rolling as they went, the aboriginal terrorists would have to "piss or get off the pot". Would they shoot? My experience with Indians is that they usually will not and maybe a "direct approach" might be the best option, here.

I would keep copies of all pertinent legislation with you and become totally familiar with Sections 34-37 of "The Criminal Code of Canada", which delineate one's rights in respect of self defence.

I think that it is imperative that both governments, all bureaucrats and the field staff of the MOE and RCMP be made aware that we are NOT going to tolerate this bullshit any longer and WILL act to ensure OUR rights are respected.

I am going to write to the MLA and MP for that area and very bluntly explain that my vote and that of my wife will go to the candidate who acts to stop outrages such as this; I will send copies to the PM, BC Premier, and appropriate ministers in both governments...and let's get letters in the various newspapers in BC.

If, this does not result in protection for our rights, then, it will be time to consider a more direct approach and deal with these extremists in a manner that removes the threat they pose to decent taxpaying hunters.

[horshur]

Jelly around the time OKA was in the news some similkameen band boys got drunk and set up a roadblock on the crossover road from oliver to cawston......my fiance and I were coming home from oliver and stumbled on this scene(no warning)
So I have a drunk indian hanging on to my mirror telling me about OKA---****ing I know shit about OKA cept some monks made good cheese there.....they were scaring the beejeezes out of Kathy and I was contiplating running over some Indians when one maybe more sober than the other stepped in and suggested that the fellow hanging onto my mirror was scaring the hell out of the girl(me too really)........Let them go...

Two wrongs don't ever make a right!

[kebes]

Anybody read the great response to a few guys post on the youtube video?
"The concept of hunting and fishing in law is that all the fish and game belonged to the Crown who then gave permission for citizens to harvest these resources. Legally and Consitutionally the only group in Canada with a hunting and fishing right as recognized by the Crown are aboriginal people. Phone a lawyer. The hunting permits you by are just that, a cash exchange for permission to harvest. This is not an inalieanable right for non-indigenous people. "

[Devilbear]

The "rights" are governed by "treaties" in most of Canada and these usually stipulate that the Crown CAN manage the harvest of the affected aboriginals as it sees fit. In short, this means that the "inalienable right" of which you speak does not exist.

Here in BC, where VERY few such treaties were enacted and thus do not exist, there ARE NO such provisions in law, in most parts of the province, except where the gawdamm NDP suckered us with that disgusting "Nisga" ripoff. Consequently, I think that a very sound case may well be made in favour of ALL citizens having EQUAL rights to hunt, fish and so on.

In any event, WE outnumber THEM by a huge amount and many feel that Parliament SHOULD enact legislation to declare ALL treaties null and void and then further legislation to enshrine Canadian equality of citizenship....I think that this would be both appropriate and contribute to genuine social justice in this land. Our "political clout" is THERE, if we want to use it....and, I think that is beginning to happen.

The massive influx of "non-traditional" and politically astute immigrants to Canada is going to make a HUGE difference in this bullshit situation and much sooner than most may realize. Wait until the PMOC is a guy born in Hong Kong and the "Minister of Justice" hails from "the Punjab" and some of THEIR buddies want to go hunting on a blockaded road and THEN, "the gloves will come off"...as they should now.

[Jelvis]

Hey Devilbear why wait for the future immigrants to drive that road, and do the job of confrontation when you can do it this coming season?

[Devilbear]

Jelvis, the inimitable (thank gawd) contributor of gibberish and incorrect "political" comments, you are, as is so often the case, wrong. The indians who are at these terrorist blockades, would like nothing better than if a few of the boys confronted them and put them to flight.

They would LOVE to see "Global TV" use a rather "edited" version of such an "attack" as lead on the evening newscasts and thereby portray the indians as "victims". No, jelly, I will not do that, although, it would be very enjoyable to "go tactical" and teach these terrorists a lesson that they well deserve.

The realistic and socially beneficial method of dealing with ALL of these situations is to, as I first posted, have each non-aboriginal cut off ALL contacts and interactions with them, in a law-abiding and non-violent way and, then, use the Canadian Armed Forces to enforce the laws.....with as much force as it takes.......

Jelly, I USED to be quite "pro" indian as were most members of our generation, who were schooled in the "civil rights" and "love and peace" atmosphere of the good, ol' '60s. I began to change my attitudes after the "Shaw CreeK" Elk slaughter of the late '80s and what I witnessed while working for the BCFS and AFS in many regions of both provinces.I now will support the harshest and most forceful treatment of aboriginal terrorists (or any terrorists regardless of ethnicity) and MOST people I speak with on such issues agree.

I am not among those here who ever discounts your intellect or ability with language, however, I am not and never have been impressed by your lack of appreciation of just how "sick and tired" other Canadians, who lack your small amount of aboriginal blood, have become since "Oka" and I think that, "the time is now" to deal with this in a permanent fashion.

So, a law-abiding and rational approach to this is what I favour and will act upon and we decent Canadians, both native-born and naturalized are going to protect OUR rights and eliminate terrorists from our nation.

[sawmill]

Hey Devilbear why wait for the future immigrants to drive that road, and do the job of confrontation when you can do it this coming season?

Mess with a road block and the RCMP will haul your ass off to jail in a heartbeat.Ask me how I know.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Mess with a road block and the RCMP will haul your ass off to jail in a heartbeat.Ask me how I know.


How do you know??:)

SSS

[sawmill]

I lived in Hazelton (Gistkan/Wetsoweten country)during the Oka b.s. back east.All of a sudden the Indians around there thought they should blockade all the loggers from working so they closed the Kispiox(actually dug a trench across a paved road with a hoe)and they shut down Hiway 37 to Dease Lake.
After a week of this it got so ugly that guys were sending their families out to stay in Smithers.Indians were threatening to come in and burn us out at night.They even set up an "information blockade"on Hiway 16,the main route to Prince Rupert.They would close the road for 3 or 4 hours,then open it for 15 minutes,then down for another 4 hours.This was in July at the peak of tourist season so traffic was backed up at least 5 or 6 miles in both directions.The RCMP were there"observing" and made no attemp to clear this bullshit up.They did however arrest a white guy who had been stuck for 4 hours and made it to the block just in time to see it go up again.He kinda lost it and went after an Indian.
We decided enough was enough and had a meeting where it was decided to lowbed a couple of D8`s and a loader to clear the logging roads.
The next morning we all met up at a contracters yard to load up.There was at least 100 or more of us there and quess who came to the party?
Yup,the RC`s. 7 of them.
They read us the riot act(literally) and told us to disperse or they would start making arrests and impounding equipment and pickups.Being law abiding citizens we eventually agreed and went home but not without a lot of arguing.
A few days later we took 75 logging trucks and set up our own blockade at the Hiway 37 junction and stopped any natives from coming into town.
That lasted about an hour and our friends were back,11 of them this time.We were on CTV news even!.So we went home again but they still did nothing about the Indians block.
finally it started to rain for a week and they all went home

[sawmill]

As a side note,when they pulled out they left scores of truck loads of garbage strewn all over the road and ditches.This was all cleaned up at taxpayer expence and the trench across the road was filled in and re-paved,same thing.

Stewards of the land my ass.:evil:

[sawmill]

So,that`s how I know.

[Kudu]

Anybody read the great response to a few guys post on the youtube video?


True dat!!

I wonder who made the video? it seems very good if it was home made - I wonder if I could persuade them to teach me the fine art? - I doubt it though?

[325 wsm]

Kudu I'm sure our taxpayers dollars has bought them the best cameras and computers money can buy as well as paid for their training in how to use them against us.

[ElkMasterC]

maybe this will help get things back on track, as far as the thread is concerned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxzqMAts-60

Good find, Confused..... if that is your REAL name ;-)

I didn't know that non-FN Hunters could go up and shoot all the Moose they want without regulation. Good to know, as I need four or five Moose for the freezer. Sounds like there's a lot of emotion, and more than a little bias on both sides.


Good letter Ken, and thanks for writing it.

If the natives want a real inventory on what's being taken, I'm all for it.
Just as long as, as you suggested, they give 100% co-operation, and abide by the same game-check laws to give an accurate inventory of moose harvest numbers by all parties.
Then, and only then, look at what to do about seasons and how to divvy up the resource among the interested parties equitably.

[Theo722]

Our most recent historical similarity regarding the few dictating how the many do things to only benefit the few ended violently after about 45 years in most and about 80 years in it's place of origin. At least in the Caucasian countries. What year is this difference of opinions in?

[wetcoasthunter]

So the indians want game checks, ok. Why don't they get those guys on the road blocks that don't seem to have anything else better to do, volunteer to count the animals taken in this area?? At least they would be doing something constructive which I feel everyone would support.

Maybe because its not actually about the moose numbers, more about who has control over the moose and who gets paid by the guys that want to hunt them.

[Theo722]

one... tree... fiveteen..

[Bowtime]

I know of a guy and his Girlfriend who had sheep tags and were denied Access into the grade. What's everyones thought on that. I thought it was all about the moose? and should this mean they get tags again this year because they were denied a chance to hunt their LEH?

[pete_k]

A few days later we took 75 logging trucks and set up our own blockade at the Hiway 37 junction and stopped any natives from coming into town.
That lasted about an hour and our friends were back,11 of them this time.We were on CTV news even!.So we went home again but they still did nothing about the Indians block.
finally it started to rain for a week and they all went home

I actualy remember that.
Taste of thier own medicine.

Bridgers got it nailed.
Write letters and lots of them. It's all we can legaly do.

The FN folks seem to be organized albiet to a malicious end. But she made a valid point on the video of a harvest count. I agree with her on that. I just dont' agree with her methods of getting attention or with some of her comments.

When people read of a road block they think.."There they go again". "Must be whining about something else now". Road blocks are over-used so much they have lost the shock factor and the point the FN is trying to make is comletely lost. No one wins across the board.

Letters are the way to go. I just wish I could write like Bridger.

[Bowtime]

And yes they have writen letters.

[Jagermeister]

I lived in Hazelton (Gistkan/Wetsoweten country)during the Oka b.s. back east.All of a sudden the Indians around there thought they should blockade all the loggers from working so they closed the Kispiox(actually dug a trench across a paved road with a hoe)and they shut down Hiway 37 to Dease Lake.
After a week of this it got so ugly that guys were sending their families out to stay in Smithers.Indians were threatening to come in and burn us out at night.They even set up an "information blockade"on Hiway 16,the main route to Prince Rupert.They would close the road for 3 or 4 hours,then open it for 15 minutes,then down for another 4 hours.This was in July at the peak of tourist season so traffic was backed up at least 5 or 6 miles in both directions.The RCMP were there"observing" and made no attemp to clear this bullshit up.They did however arrest a white guy who had been stuck for 4 hours and made it to the block just in time to see it go up again.He kinda lost it and went after an Indian.
We decided enough was enough and had a meeting where it was decided to lowbed a couple of D8`s and a loader to clear the logging roads.
The next morning we all met up at a contracters yard to load up.There was at least 100 or more of us there and quess who came to the party?
Yup,the RC`s. 7 of them.
They read us the riot act(literally) and told us to disperse or they would start making arrests and impounding equipment and pickups.Being law abiding citizens we eventually agreed and went home but not without a lot of arguing.
A few days later we took 75 logging trucks and set up our own blockade at the Hiway 37 junction and stopped any natives from coming into town.
That lasted about an hour and our friends were back,11 of them this time.We were on CTV news even!.So we went home again but they still did nothing about the Indians block.
finally it started to rain for a week and they all went home

I remember this incident. The mistake here was that the loggers backed down on the threat of arrest and seizure. How would the highest court in the land have dealt with your convictions while the real perpertrators went about with impunity? The government needs to start extinquishing FN rights and quit mollycoddling them.

[flyboy]

I am about to write a letter to my local MLA/MP. I want to go hunting up in the Klappan next fall and I want some answers before I book holidays and spend a large amount of my after TAX dollars to do so on PUBLIC land. I don't want a drawn out reply that I can't understand, I just want a YES or NO that I will be allowed to go. From that answer I will take the next steps needed.

[Jelvis]

hey flyboy writing a letter to a local mla telling them you want to go hunting up in the Klappan next fall on public land and you want answers. Answers for what? Looking for permission to go hunting from an mla? What the?
How the h is a mla going to know what roads will be blocked next fall?
How about a definate maybe? lol
jel--no one can predict the future lol-

[BimmerBob]

Jel, I think he is wanting a confirmation that the government will take action on any future road blockade to peacefully protect the rights of access. I will be speaking to my local MLA regarding this and will follow up with a letter to the AG and Premier to ensure they start doing their jobs.

In-action by authorities is a problem for the FN as well as for the public needing access to fulfill their hunts, I want to urge them to act BEFORE there is vigilante justice

I am not sure if you remember the late 1950's early 1960's but there were road blockades by locals in the Pavilion area which ended with shots fired and if I recall correctly a native being hospitalized after they made the mistake of shooting a local ranchers pickup truck. (might have died, can't recall the details now and I was pretty young at the time)

The real tragedy here will be if someone gets hurt because of responsible authorities failing to perform their duties in a balanced way. Interesting to note that people born of the same land (and I really don't understand how practices can be inherited out of context with the practices of the day) can be treated so differently for the same activities as pointed out in Sawmill's previous posts.

Time to "bury the hatchet" and move on, we cannot undo the past we can only ensure the future is not so lame.

Hope this finds you well, Bob

[Jelvis]

Sounds good bimmer, I'm hoping for more myself, total world peace by next year. I'm going to write the Prime Minister and the President and the leaders of the G7 and tell them it's not good to have wars, and hurt others. lol. I'm going to tell them to do their job and make peace mandatory by next fall world wide, and everyone treated as equals. All roads free to drive on world wide. No differences all under the same rules. Living in total harmony and loving peace. Sounds like the hippy generation lol.
Also people born in the same land, will all be the same too, same clothes, same cars. Finally I'm going to demand that the leaders listen and do that. I pay taxes and so do others. It's time to move on from mass destruction of country's with barbaric killing, I know we can't undo WW2 but it's time to bury the hatchet, and ensure the future is war free.
I will show you the letter I get back from the G7 leaders as soon as they respond to my request. They will be astonished when they read my complaint and my sincere plan to change this.
jel--peace to us all, everywhere, all the time throughout the world no more adversity ever again starting now. ok bim thanks soo much.

[flyboy]

Wow,nice response Jel.

The point I am making is simple.

ME- MR/MRS MLA can I as a TAX paying citizen of BC go hunting on CROWN land in the KLAPPAN area next fall?YES or NO.

MLA-YES you can MR CITIZEN

ME- THEN CAN YOU PLEASE ENSURE YOU DO WHATEVER YOUR GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO DO TO INSURE THAT I WILL BE ALLOWED INTO THAT AREA NEXT FALL BECAUSE YOU FLAT OUT (IN WRITEING) SAID YOU WOULD.

NOW WE ALL KNOW POLITICANS MAY LIE, BUT WITHOUT SOME HARD ASSURANCES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER I HAVE NOTHING TO TAKE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

I KNOW I AM MAKEING IT SOUND WAY TO EASY BUT I THINK SOME PEOPLE ON HERE WILL GET WHAT I AM SAYING AND OTHERS WILL JUST SHOT ME DOWN CAUSE THEY HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO.

[Jelvis]

flyboy - I know your good letter will be looked over by someone in the office and placed in a filing cabinet with different other requests in order of importance to the mla. They will confirm your letter and tell you certain things.
.. when writing I would recommend you use spell check and ordinary print size for starters.
.. I understand your frustration over the attempted blocking of a public road.
one question, what level are you seeking to go for next? You say next level?
.. hard assurances from a politician ... lol... you won't get that in writing ... lol ...
jel.. good luck .. why don't you phone the Indian band with jurisdiction of that traditional territory and ask for the wildlife manager, and talk at them? They have phones now, smoke signals have not been used for some time.

[pete_k]

This might help a bit Flyboy

http://www.democracylawblog.ca/howtocontactMP.html

I never knew a letter to MLA or PM does not require a stamp.

[BimmerBob]

Sounds good bimmer, I'm hoping for more myself, total world peace by next year. I'm going to write the Prime Minister and the President and the leaders of the G7 and tell them it's not good to have wars, and hurt others. lol. I'm going to tell them to do their job and make peace mandatory by next fall world wide, and everyone treated as equals. All roads free to drive on world wide. No differences all under the same rules. Living in total harmony and loving peace. Sounds like the hippy generation lol.
Also people born in the same land, will all be the same too, same clothes, same cars. Finally I'm going to demand that the leaders listen and do that. I pay taxes and so do others. It's time to move on from mass destruction of country's with barbaric killing, I know we can't undo WW2 but it's time to bury the hatchet, and ensure the future is war free.
I will show you the letter I get back from the G7 leaders as soon as they respond to my request. They will be astonished when they read my complaint and my sincere plan to change this.
jel--peace to us all, everywhere, all the time throughout the world no more adversity ever again starting now. ok bim thanks soo much.

Jellyman, are you making fun of me? :confused:

[Trapper]

Maybe we should put up our own blockade in front of the FN blockade not letting any FN in or out , I wonder what would happen then.

[40incher]

For those who would like to effect positive change, take the time to send an e-mail to the upper-level bureaucrats in the Ministry of Environment. Never underestimate that any one person CAN make a difference if they do even one small thing.

The e-mail addresses to contact are:

Deputy Minister Doug Konkin doug.konkin@gov.bc.ca

Assistant Deputy Minister Ralph Archibald ralph.archibald@gov.bc.ca

Director of Wildlife Tom Ethier tom.ethier@gov.bc.ca


Also, the local MLA (NDP-Stikine) is Doug Donaldson from Hazelton doug.donaldson.mla@leg.bc.ca who is on record as not supporting LEH unless there is a proven conservation concern. Hold him to that.

MLA's like Bill Bennett (Liberal-Kootenays) bill.bennett.mla@leg.bc.ca and Blair Lekstrom (Liberal-Peace River) blair.lekstrom.mla@leg.bc.ca are worth contacting. They stood up for resident hunters in the past. Remember the "Right to Hunt and Fish Act" passed a few years ago. It applies here.

As one who is all too familiar with this issue we should keep in mind who the real instigators are in the the Klappan/Stikine issues. BC Parks (MoE), the Wildlife Branch (MoE), and certain guide-outfitters have been pushing for total LEH for moose on the Pitman and Chukachida Rivers (tribs of the Stikine) for many years. While MoE clearly admits there is absolutely NO conservation concern for moose in these remote river valleys that has not stopped them from playing their little game to shut resident hunters out.

At the end of the day MoE has proven to be a dysfunctional bureaucracy, especially at the regional level.

Ken Franzen has written a good letter to get the ball rolling. Take the time to follow up and support hunters representing us in Skeena Region.

LET THOSE AT THE POLITICAL END OF THE BUREAUCRACY, AND THOSE MLA's ELECTED TO REPRESENT US, KNOW HOW YOU FEEL !!

[bighornbob]

Maybe we should put up our own blockade in front of the FN blockade not letting any FN in or out , I wonder what would happen then.

Put up a blockade around the Petrocan in Dease. No natives allowed to buy gas. They can hunt moose from their canoes all they want.

I wonder how well that would fly.

BHB

[KodiakHntr]

ME- MR/MRS MLA can I as a TAX paying citizen of BC go hunting on CROWN land in the KLAPPAN area next fall?YES or NO.

MLA-YES you can MR CITIZEN

ME- THEN CAN YOU PLEASE ENSURE YOU DO WHATEVER YOUR GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO DO TO INSURE THAT I WILL BE ALLOWED INTO THAT AREA NEXT FALL BECAUSE YOU FLAT OUT (IN WRITEING) SAID YOU WOULD.

NOW WE ALL KNOW POLITICANS MAY LIE, BUT WITHOUT SOME HARD ASSURANCES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER I HAVE NOTHING TO TAKE TO THE NEXT LEVEL.





You will NEVER get a politician to agree to that. You will never get ANYONE with a bit of legal sense to agree to anything like that which could potentially open them or their party to legal repercussions.

Its an interesting idea, but trying to get anything like that in writing will be like trying to staple water to a wall.

[KodiakHntr]

Maybe we should put up our own blockade in front of the FN blockade not letting any FN in or out , I wonder what would happen then.

Most likely you would be charged with un-lawful confinement (kidnapping).

Put up a blockade to restrict access (keeping hunters out, recreation activity) wouldn't be seen as being even in the same ballpark as restricting people from getting food (keeping the FN in)....

Definately understand the frustration though.

[Jagermeister]

Me thinks that the best course of action on this matter is to join the BCWF, preferably through a local to you F&G Club.
Maybe our concerns about the Klappan can be brought to the BCWF Convention in PG under a special resolution if it not already on the resolution list.

[Cariboospeed]

Maybe we should put up our own blockade in front of the FN blockade not letting any FN in or out , I wonder what would happen then.

Put up a blockade 50' from their blockade. Steal the show.

Any press shows, claim to be the "real", blockade and the other guys are just wannabe posers.

[Johnnybear]

I watched the video posted and all you have to do is open the gate and go in:confused:.

[sawmill]

Maybe we should put up our own blockade in front of the FN blockade not letting any FN in or out , I wonder what would happen then.

Didn`t you read my long winded earlier post?
Cops will be on your ass so fast you`ll think you got caght robbing a bank.
Trust me...been there.

[Mik]

They sound very uninformed. They want shorter seasons and LEH, and moose inventory counts, because there aren't enough moose.

But they don't know how many moose are there!:mrgreen:

Oh! Apparently they know; last year in a phone conversation I was told that "they" did a study and that there were 185 moose taken out!

[Mik]

Palmer's idea is very plausible.
I got to wondering after watching the video that Confused posted, what makes the Talthan or any other FN group think that they have a devine right to the wildlife? Afterall, did the Creator not make us all?
Maybe the Talthan should reveal how many moose they have "harvested" over the course of a year, sort of start the ball rolling.

Well said jagermeister; I love the statement that Annita says.."hunters come and kill as many moose as they like"..WOW maybe she just incriminated her own people...oh wait, they have no limit!

[Mik]

Your putting off your right to drive down a public road because?
if you call three pieces of fire wood and a six foot quarter inch nylon rope a blockade and refuse to drive by then that's your choice. No one is stopping you, you just don't have the guts to drive by and want to call the cops.
Huge public outcry, to who? Whose going to listen to someone who won't drive around 3 pieces of firewood?
The government won't do anything? Which one?
jp face the music and drive around. If that were you on the road, I'd remove you, so I could cross.
by keeping you busy talking at me, while buddy drove the truck by and then hop in and wave bye bye.

Good point Jelvis.....although there is always a first time, and would you be willing to be the one? I have personally talked to 4 people that have been threatened and camp destroyed at the Klappan. These people, (or atleast a few in the bunch), are not that friendly. 1 hunter was stuck for a couple of weeks cause the indians used an excavator to dig a ditch across the road. lucky he was retired and in no hurry to get home!

[Devilbear]

When the enormous "Darkwoods Forestry" private block of land in the West Kootenays was sold by it's foreign "owner" back around spring-2008, the immediate reaction of the local indians was to make a "land claim" for it. I was in Nelson, that summer and a couple of the boys I spoke with on this issue, were not too happy as was the case when it was sold to The Duke of Wurttemburg, in '67, by Gordo Campbell's former employer, Marathon Realty, an extension of the CPR.

Some of the local boys kinda figure that THEY have a few rights in that area and some felt that the Provincial Parks, at least the larger wilderness ones, WOULD be used to deal with the utterly false, racist and vile "land claims" of the BC indians. I have expected this for years and then Gordos pals will "rent" "rights" from the local tribe to "develop facilities" and make PROFIT......

I expect the Spatsizi and some others to go the same way as the indians around Jasper-Hinton, AB. DID lay clain to Jasper Nat'l. Park in 1991, inspired by the gutless performance of all governments the preceding year with the disgusting display at "Oka".

She's a'comin', boys, pretty soon "whitey" will be subservient to the indians and will only hunt and fish where they allow us to..............

[hardnocks]

the only way i can see to fight this is to join the bcfw.

driving around or through a road block will not work...anyone who ever went to school with native`s should know this. beat one up and you would have to fight the whole tribe.

and the other thing against us is the BC goverment hate`s tax payer`s . if anyone was logging on the island in the late 80s and 90s would know. our goverment would allow a couple american hippys blocking a whole logging divison. but if loggers pushed them out of the way they were charged with assault.

[sawmill]

Hey Jelly,those guys have been known to be armed.I wouldn`t want to take the chance,after all they killed a cop at Oka.

[Deadshot]

She's a'comin', boys, pretty soon "whitey" will be subservient to the indians and will only hunt and fish where they allow us to..............

"Whitey" may have to add a species on to the list if it comes to that!:wink:

[OOBuck]

Again, this reverts back to which came first the chicken or the egg...

What is worse,

(1) The FN for wanting land & a hand out??
(2) The government giving into the FN??
(3) Us for being stupid enough to let this shit continue & not kicking the government in the JUNK!!

Maybe it is time to become Politically UNcorrect and start with civil disobedience, don't buy a hunting license next year, if your a "native" born Canadian. My fathers father was born here, my father was born here & I was born here how long do I have to pay for my ancestors mistakes?

I'am a "native" Canadian where the F--k are my rights!

[OOBuck]

Cannot the Government have a rule protecting all ''Canadians" and treat us as one?

Ya right a government decision that makes sence!

[Devilbear]

What mistakes? Generally, the aboriginals in what evolved into Canada have been better treated than anywhere else on Earth; they have NO legitimate grievances and are TOO pampered, if anything. The "residential schools" issue has been grossly exaggerated in the liberal media, BECAUSE the various schools, were operated by CHRISTIAN churches and those "social democrats" hate and fear religion.

Voting? They WERE BY TREATY "wards of the Crown" and thus had no reason to vote and most could not comprehend the system, anyway. As the "residential schools" taught more of them to read,etc., the voting rights were extended to them and NOW they boast that they are "not Canadians"....well, until it's time to pick up the Canadian cheques, anyway.

The problem here is a very simple one, ANY person BORN in Canada IS NATIVE and we need to "get tough" with indians and treat them no better or worse than anyone else. The length of time one's family has been here means nothing, but, Canadian BIRTH and/or Canadian citizenship, like that renounced by "chiefs" such as the highly-paid former "BC Treaty Commission" head, Miles Richardson, IS of HUGE value and must be protected....even at the cost of "going tactical" in this outrageous situation.

[msawyer]

Hello all...

Lots of talk about the law and rights in this post, as there should be - its a complex and difficult issue. And don't get me wrong, the idea of planning a hunt only to have it scuttled would drive me mad as much as the next guy.. But can someone tell where in this dicussion has there been any balanced acknowledgement that BC FNs do have special legal rights, have been, and continue to be, mistreated in our society, and are trying, to the best of thier ability to get thier act together. Why have these facts not been raised in the context of the "trouble on the klappan"?

Me thinks that a little understanding of the FN plight and perspective might help in finding a solution that all can abide by...

Take care

Mike

[CanuckShooter]

Hello all...

Lots of talk about the law and rights in this post, as there should be - its a complex and difficult issue. And don't get me wrong, the idea of planning a hunt only to have it scuttled would drive me mad as much as the next guy.. But can someone tell where in this dicussion has there been any balanced acknowledgement that BC FNs do have special legal rights, have been, and continue to be, mistreated in our society, and are trying, to the best of thier ability to get thier act together. Why have these facts not been raised in the context of the "trouble on the klappan"?

Me thinks that a little understanding of the FN plight and perspective might help in finding a solution that all can abide by...

Take care

Mike

Maybe because FN plight and perspective has very little to do with prolonged road blocks, destroyed camps,threats of violence, and the authorities refusal to enforce the law.

[OOBuck]

Me thinks that a little understanding of the FN plight and perspective might help in finding a solution that all can abide by...

Take care

Mike

Here's a couple of sites you might want to check out Mike... Might make it a little easier when they come knocking and kick you out into the street as "they" own the land your sitting on..

http://www.firstnations.eu/

http://www.ubcic.bc.ca/Resources/atrp.htm

[Devilbear]

Your basic premise is false, NO mistreatment of aboriginals as a group(s) exists in Canadian society and has not for many decades, if at all. Your assertion is the old bullshit, spread by the social malcontents and jealousy-driven spin-docters of the NDP and the grasping group of "chiefs" who mistreat, rob and cheat THEIR OWN PEOPLE.....want examples?

I do NOT and I suspect most here also do not, ACCEPT any "special rights" for aboriginals and since these are usually media-driven and false demands by the few to take from the public at large, they should ALL be legally disallowed.

The current problems are THE INDIAN"S OWN FAULT and they need to behave like law-abiding and responsible Canadians or face an increasing level of hostility from we, the "silent majority". Simply put, mY ethnic ancestors were Norse Vikings, my family settled here a LONG time ago and I was BORN HERE and NOBODY has ANY superior rights to mine!

If, they continue to behave this way and their "chiefs" constantly snivel about "war", then, that WILL happen and sooner than some seem to realize.

[CanuckShooter]

What mistakes? Generally, the aboriginals in what evolved into Canada have been better treated than anywhere else on Earth; they have NO legitimate grievances and are TOO pampered, if anything. The "residential schools" issue has been grossly exaggerated in the liberal media, BECAUSE the various schools, were operated by CHRISTIAN churches and those "social democrats" hate and fear religion.

Voting? They WERE BY TREATY "wards of the Crown" and thus had no reason to vote and most could not comprehend the system, anyway. As the "residential schools" taught more of them to read,etc., the voting rights were extended to them and NOW they boast that they are "not Canadians"....well, until it's time to pick up the Canadian cheques, anyway.

The problem here is a very simple one, ANY person BORN in Canada IS NATIVE and we need to "get tough" with indians and treat them no better or worse than anyone else. The length of time one's family has been here means nothing, but, Canadian BIRTH and/or Canadian citizenship, like that renounced by "chiefs" such as the highly-paid former "BC Treaty Commission" head, Miles Richardson, IS of HUGE value and must be protected....even at the cost of "going tactical" in this outrageous situation.

Your really getting stupid now......if your trolling for 'indian' debate why don't you start another thread under politics and debates?? Or are you afraid some of us erudite natives will go "tactical' on you??:mrgreen:

[Jelvis]

If it is on a public road and you don't want to drive around because it could escalate your fear of retaliation why don't you call the local Conservation Office. Let them know your concern and ask them wth is going on?
If they can't deal with it or won't then your sol. The CO should be able to tell you face to face what you can do. If you don't want to attempt driving around the rope. The CO in the nearest town should tell you exactly what a hunter can do.
jElvi$ -- Pick up the phone and phone right now and let us know exactly what they tell you on the Klappan road issue -- nearest town co.

[OOBuck]

Or are you afraid some of us erudite natives will go "tactical' on you??:mrgreen:

So you feel your entitled to more than me or my family then?

[msawyer]

Hello all...

DevilBear, and apparently others, believe that FN do not have any "special rights". While they are free to advance their own views that FN shouldn't have special rights, the fact is that it is well established in law, in the Canadian Constitution, and by numerous court decision right up to the SCC, that FN do have special rights... All the bellicose pronouncements to the contrary will not change this reality.

So why not have a balanced discussion about how we could solve the issue? For example, has the BCWF ever asked for high level meetings with the BC FN leadership. Has BCWF ever expressed empathy or support for the FN legal rights or aspirations? Let's have something other than thinly veiled racist rantings! That are simply wrong!

Take care

Mike

[OOBuck]

Sounds like like a plee for compromise but I feel we've already been partway down that slippery slope and it doesn't work!! 'You apply grease' to cure one squeek and another quickly takes its place. Also, in doing so, when you offer preferential treatment to 'one' that you deny 'others', you discriminate or at the very least, give the perception of doing so. I was born 'here' so I see no reason someone else, born here, should get entitlements that are denied to me. Why?? It may have been the an answer in the previous century but this is 2010.

Amen! Grease is a temporary fix not a cure to a problem that desperately NEEDS a fix.

[Jelvis]

I don't think it's more or less it's just different, all kinds of things are different for all people, like license to drive, one might have a permit to drive semi truck, another a taxi, like being able to try out for law enforcement some can and some can't. Different circumstances because society is different in many ways and has conditions to attain certain status, like an airline pilot or fireman for instance. Not everyone can be a fireman. Etc. Not more or le$$ but different.
jellydonut.

[CanuckShooter]

So you feel your entitled to more than me or my family then?

Who said that??? DevilBear maybe??? We should all be entitled to be judged on our own personal merits and not bunched in with a bunch of ill advised radicals based upon our cultural heritage. This thread is about the Klappan road blocks, and the authorities not taking any action to protect the RIGHTS of all Canadians to persue legal activities on crown land...not about any meagre entitlements that some people think all natives have.

[OOBuck]

Hello all...

DevilBear, and apparently others, believe that FN do not have any "special rights". While they are free to advance their own views that FN shouldn't have special rights, the fact is that it is well established in law, in the Canadian Constitution, and by numerous court decision right up to the SCC, that FN do have special rights... All the bellicose pronouncements to the contrary will not change this reality.

So why not have a balanced discussion about how we could solve the issue? For example, has the BCWF ever asked for high level meetings with the BC FN leadership. Has BCWF ever expressed empathy or support for the FN legal rights or aspirations? Let's have something other than thinly veiled racist rantings! That are simply wrong!


Take care

Mike

Big group hug! No special treatment for anyone, get with the times! Guess I'm a racist now for wanting my children to have the same rights as anyone else and not have special rights for anyone group.

If you ask me its RACIST to expect special treatment from a piece of paper that was signed long ago and everyone involve is loooong since dead.

[Bowtime]

When there is a proposed game check point to monitor the amount of moose killed yearly, this would be for the FN also? Then the station would have to be run year round right?
I have seen first hand the moose the FN's kill in the spring, some cows. If they were so concerned about the moose population why would they take out the cows?
And there is one question that has not been pointed out. who initiated this road block? Why was it set up during hunting season, Not before the season? if they are so concerned about numbers.

[OOBuck]

Who said that??? DevilBear maybe??? We should all be entitled to be judged on our own personal merits and not bunched in with a bunch of ill advised radicals based upon our cultural heritage. This thread is about the Klappan road blocks, and the authorities not taking any action to protect the RIGHTS of all Canadians to persue legal activities on crown land...not about any meagre entitlements that some people think all natives have.

Still didn't answer the question?

So does your merit entitle you to special treatment and should they entitle you to special treatment due to your cultural heritage?

Should I be allowed to set up a road block on my street & limit access to MY land that I'm currently using while I'm here because I don't like my neighbors and the fact that they don't manicure their lawn the way I like it?

[Jelvis]

Pick up your phone and call a CO in the nearest town to this problem and have a talk and let us know what his or her answer is.
They are paid to uphold the B.C. Wild Life Act and if they can't give you a clear answer on your hunting right to drive down a road in an open area who can?
jElvi$ - $u$picious Mind$ - We can't go on together with suspicious minds -

[CanuckShooter]

I think the issue can be solved quite easily Mike. Why don't you ask the B.C. FN Leadership, if there is a ''vision'' on the horizon, they they may one day consider becoming a ''Canadian'' and ask why millions of Dollars are spent creating these divisions and wedges between a ''Canadian'' and a ''native''.

And I wonder what the "Vision" is from the perspective of our federal and provincial governments?? It's not right to lay the BS of unresolved treaty talks on one side of the table and ignore the other side is it?

[KodiakHntr]

Still didn't answer the question?

So does your merit entitle you to special treatment and should they entitle you to special treatment due to your cultural heritage?



What, exactly, do you think this "special treatment" is?

(Not to single you out Buck), but you hear it thrown out quite a bit in these debates. What special treatment do you think all natives get that you don't?

[OOBuck]

What, exactly, do you think this "special treatment" is?

(Not to single you out Buck), but you hear it thrown out quite a bit in these debates. What special treatment do you think all natives get that you don't?


Oh lets say taxes for a start..

[CanuckShooter]

Still didn't answer the question?

So does your merit entitle you to special treatment and should they entitle you to special treatment due to your cultural heritage?

Should I be allowed to set up a road block on my street & limit access to MY land that I'm currently using while I'm here because I don't like my neighbors and the fact that they don't manicure their lawn the way I like it?

First paragraph answer:

What special treatment?

Second paragraph answer:

On your land, yes it's private property. On your street, no it's a public roadway and you should be arrested if you refuse to allow public passage.

[OOBuck]

On your land, yes it's private property. On your street, no it's a public roadway and you should be arrested if you refuse to allow public passage.

According to the treaties I don't own MY land.

Putting up a road block on a Public Land ie:road in Klappan should be dealt with in the same manor then?

[CanuckShooter]

Oh lets say taxes for a start..

Taxes:

If your a Citizen of the USA you do not have to pay GST sales tax in Canada.

Most natives live below the poverty line and wouldn't pay taxes anyway.

The wealthy native commercial fisherman [used as an example before]probably pays less tax than the wealthy non-native commercial fisherman.

A businessman that makes $100,000 annually, probably pays less tax than my family does [employee] because they are permitted special tax deductions.

[CanuckShooter]

According to the treaties I don't own MY land.

Putting up a road block on a Public Land ie:road in Klappan should be dealt with in the same manor then?

Who told you that you don't own your land??? I am not aware of any Treaty that usurped private property. ON the contrary, most BC First Nations communities are told they don't own the land they possessed for thousands of years, never sold, never treated away, and were never compensated for.

Illegal road blocks should be removed by the people we pay to enforce the law. Period.

[835]

There are so many programs out there that The ''White man'' benefits from that the ''Native man'' does not. There are programs out there that the ''Native man'' benefits from that the ''White man '' does not. it goes back and forth.
The Klappan issue and others, can be argued day in and day out. Until we have a Law for ALL CANADIANS and treated equally, under one flag, these arguments will continue.
Cheers
Chris

Tried to stay out of this but this is a very correct statement,
until we are treated equal we will not be equal and there will always be a fight. If we blocked the road it would be taken down by force.
i treat everyone equal

[Jelvis]

Pick up the phone and call the CO Office nearest Klappan and ask for their interpretation and get back -- it's B.C. and it's their job to inform.
.. or write a letter to the office for an explanation of the situation
or e-mail for an answer once and for all and get back to us ...
...then we can see what the answer is .. from our own CO's.
jel .. then get back right awayz .. I can't afford the long distance billing lol

[KodiakHntr]

According to the treaties I don't own MY land.



Hate to break it to you, but you don't OWN your land period. The government owns it, you simply have occupation status for the surface as long as you pay your rent to the government (property taxes)...

[CanuckShooter]

Hate to break it to you, but you don't own YOUR land period. The government owns it, you simply have occupation status for the surface as long as you pay your rent to the government (property taxes)...

All the truth and nothing but. :mrgreen:

[Jelvis]

Hey sassyfratz. The simple cowboy. I'm just a lonely cowboy. There you go Cowboys and Indians again lol- always reverts back to the good ole Cowboys who made this country what it is - with out them heck Canada wouldn't be here - lol -

[OOBuck]

Taxes:

If your a Citizen of the USA you do not have to pay GST sales tax in Canada.

Most natives live below the poverty line and wouldn't pay taxes anyway.

The wealthy native commercial fisherman [used as an example before]probably pays less tax than the wealthy non-native commercial fisherman.

A businessman that makes $100,000 annually, probably pays less tax than my family does [employee] because they are permitted special tax deductions.

American get tax back at the border

I live below the poverty line

Tax free fuel?

I like to see that tax loop hole...

[OOBuck]

The Klappan issue and others, can be argued day in and day out. Until we have a Law for ALL CANADIANS and treated equally, under one flag, these arguments will continue.
Cheers
Chris

I don't have problem with one land one law, others do...

[OOBuck]

Who told you that you don't own your land??? I am not aware of any Treaty that usurped private property. ON the contrary, most BC First Nations communities are told they don't own the land they possessed for thousands of years, never sold, never treated away, and were never compensated for.

Illegal road blocks should be removed by the people we pay to enforce the law. Period.

Read the Charter, you don't own your land..

Thousand of years huh? Wow know wonder I'm not entitled to any rights..

[OOBuck]

Hate to break it to you, but you don't OWN your land period. The government owns it, you simply have occupation status for the surface as long as you pay your rent to the government (property taxes)...

I have read the Charter & I do know the difference between ownership & enjoyment...

[wetcoasthunter]

One of the problems I've had with all this mess about who owns what, etc is I have felt by the DECADES of IN-action by many native groups on such claims they have essentially implied it was accepted that non-indians owned the land and the indians have forfitted their rights to such land. You can't all of a sudden, now that the land and resources are worth boat loads of cash, say that you now own it, why didn't you speak up way back when (ignorance of law is not an excuse, never has been), you snooze you lose.

[BimmerBob]

Wow, gone for a few hours and many more pages on this thread. Good points and counter points.

Summary View:

Maybe it is not really a FN vs Others issue? It might just be the damn lawyers causing this entire problem? Lawyers/Politicians/Bankers/Religion - the parasitic basis for all this evil?

I think the nut has been cracked :wink:

In all seriousness though, I really appreciate the Cowboy Wisdom shown by SafariChris, short and sweet and to the point. I recall my dad, and grandfather talking about this when I was young and they maintained that the absolutely worst thing for the natives was the reservation system that was established by the government of Canada. They saw this coming 50+ years ago. My thought is that it will be going 50+ years from now too.

Cheers, Bob

[gibblewabble]

Its a pile of crap for sure, no stats or supporting documentation. Political for sure, I wish the government would put a stop to this before it starts to spiral out of control, this is how Canada could de-evolve into civil conflict eventually. They may have a right to hunt be we have a right to access our crown land, they should have called in the military and shut it down, there should be no blockades.

[BimmerBob]

If I may take the liberty to submit a piece of the Forward of a good read on this issue."

Chris, I might be just missing it but what was the title of the book. I am going to pick a copy up at the library if it is available...

Thanks, Bob

[Devilbear]

Your really getting stupid now......if your trolling for 'indian' debate why don't you start another thread under politics and debates?? Or are you afraid some of us erudite natives will go "tactical' on you??:mrgreen:

CSer, I see you have added a new word to your meager vocabulary, due to my influence, ...erudite.... Good for you and keep up the attempts to learn and I may assist you further.

However, before attempting to SOUND learned, erudite or even barely literate, I would suggest that you learn to employ the correct usage in your posts, so, that you will not further demonstrate your typical ignorance. It is correct to write or say, "WE erudite" etc., however, as shown, you clearly are not.........

You now threaten to ...go tactical... on me? Would that be done with your "traditional" stone axes or with "whitey's" weapons? I would LOVE to meet you in person, so, that you could repeat to my face the slur of ...orange sash... and the various times you have called me ...white trash... on the internet.

I NEVER forget and you can PM me again, as you just did, and this time arrange to meet me and TRY to do what you boast of here. I will BET that all you will do will be to make further illiterate comments and then boast about being ...erudite.... You have absolutely NO comprehension of what that term means and never will....and, you call me ...stupid...?

You should try a "Remedial English class" before making further idiotic comments here.

[bridger]

Bimmmer Bob
If I am thrown off this Forum for recommending a good read, I am coming after your ass and track you down..
Our Home OR Native Land:
What Governments' Aboriginal Policy is Doing to Canada
Melvin H. Smith Q.C.




throw you off they should make you a moderator lol bridger

[KodiakHntr]

CSer, I see you have added a new word to your meager vocabulary, due to my influence, ...erudite.... Good for you and keep up the attempts to learn and I may assist you further.

However, before attempting to SOUND learned, erudite or even barely literate, I would suggest that you learn to employ the correct usage in your posts, so, that you will not further demonstrate your typical ignorance. It is correct to write or say, "WE erudite" etc., however, as shown, you clearly are not.........

You now threaten to ...go tactical... on me? Would that be done with your "traditional" stone axes or with "whitey's" weapons? I would LOVE to meet you in person, so, that you could repeat to my face the slur of ...orange sash... and the various times you have called me ...white trash... on the internet.

I NEVER forget and you can PM me again, as you just did, and this time arrange to meet me and TRY to do what you boast of here. I will BET that all you will do will be to make further illiterate comments and then boast about being ...erudite.... You have absolutely NO comprehension of what that term means and never will....and, you call me ...stupid...?

You should try a "Remedial English class" before making further idiotic comments here.

This has what to do with this thread?

[Devilbear]

I bought Mel Smith's excellent book when it was first published, read it and still have it here. He was a good guy and had some good ideas, but, he was far too soft in his suggestions for dealing with this mess. Some of these WERE tried and had no effect upon the contemporary actions of the abnoriginals who have and do cause all of these troubles.

It becomes ever more obvious here, that there exists a small number of posters of partial indian ancestry and these continually whine, lie, make racist comments and slag others while accepting indian malfeasance as somehow justified. This is a reflection of society at large and it shows that ONLY a major attempt to solve this problem will prevent further such activities.

I favour "full-on" military action against any and all blockades, protests, threatening or harassing behaviour and the summary execution of individual aboriginal terrorists involved. THAT will sort out the situation and we decent Canadians can get back to our lives, in peace and quiet.

[KodiakHntr]

It becomes ever more obvious here, that there exists a small number of posters of partial indian ancestry and these continually whine, lie, make racist comments and slag others while accepting indian malfeasance as somehow justified. This is a reflection of society at large and it shows that ONLY a major attempt to solve this problem will prevent further such activities.

I favour "full-on" military action against any and all blockades, protests, threatening or harassing behaviour and the summary execution of individual aboriginal terrorists involved. THAT will sort out the situation and we decent Canadians can get back to our lives, in peace and quiet.


Whine, lie, and make racist comments? I dare you to find ONE example of this in ANY thread on this board, made by anyone of your description. You'll note perhaps where the racist comments and slagging come from if you view your own posts.

Execution....Over a pole balanced on three pieces of firewood. Interesting. I'm sure that would of solved a lot of problems had some of your beloved environmentalists been executed back during all the blockades of forest workers trying to feed their families in the Slocan Valley.

A little over the top there Dewey, even for you.

[BimmerBob]

Bimmmer Bob
If I am thrown off this Forum for recommending a good read, I am coming after your ass and track you down..
Our Home OR Native Land:
What Governments' Aboriginal Policy is Doing to Canada
Melvin H. Smith Q.C.



Quck somebody take that offending (if it is) post off, I sure as heck don't want my ass hunted by Chris, been in the city too long to escape the wrath... :wink:

[Devilbear]

I guess that we decent Canadians who obey the law, pay our taxes, mine have run $35,000+ to about $57,000 per annum for over a quarter-century, should really ask ourselves a simple question. This is, WHY would the governments concerned and the RCMP and other LEO agencies be SO willing to allow these, the worst people in Canada, to break the law with impunity?

What do you guys think, is this a deliberate policy with an agenda or, is it due to other factors? Those here who post illiterate comments about ...thinly veiled racist..., etc., will likely have an answer and I also have some thoughts on this, but, have business this afternoon and have no time to post them. So, boys, what do you think is behind this?

[weatherby_man]

I guess that we decent Canadians who obey the law, pay our taxes, mine have run $35,000+ to about $57,000 per annum for over a quarter-century, should really ask ourselves a simple question. This is, WHY would the governments concerned and the RCMP and other LEO agencies be SO willing to allow these, the worst people in Canada, to break the law with impunity?

What do you guys think, is this a deliberate policy with an agenda or, is it due to other factors? Those here who post illiterate comments about ...thinly veiled racist..., etc., will likely have an answer and I also have some thoughts on this, but, have business this afternoon and have no time to post them. So, boys, what do you think is behind this?

I think its deliberate,

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

[pete_k]

Hello all...

DevilBear, and apparently others, believe that FN do not have any "special rights". While they are free to advance their own views that FN shouldn't have special rights, the fact is that it is well established in law, in the Canadian Constitution, and by numerous court decision right up to the SCC, that FN do have special rights... All the bellicose pronouncements to the contrary will not change this reality.

So why not have a balanced discussion about how we could solve the issue? For example, has the BCWF ever asked for high level meetings with the BC FN leadership. Has BCWF ever expressed empathy or support for the FN legal rights or aspirations? Let's have something other than thinly veiled racist rantings! That are simply wrong!

Take care

Mike

x2 Mike. Thanks

[bighornbob]

Did anyone consider this may not even be a native issue thing but one of Not in My Backyard by the local hunters.

Look at all the talk anytime a elk issue and the east koots comes up. You have the local guys wanting a 6 point season and that too many lower mainland guys come and hunt their elk. You read it everytime, the elk will be slaughtered if they open up a 3 point season.

Same with the peace country, guys are coming and shooting their deer. I am sure if the east koot guys could blockade a road (legally) to keep people from shooting their elk, they would. Same with the peace guys.
The only reason you dont see blockades is becuase there are too many roads and you would be arrested. Maybe the natives are using the only method they know would work.

Shit you even see it at the indicidual level where guys blcoks logging roads with pickups becase they want to hunt 1-10 slashes alone.

Too me its the same thing regardless of color. The natives are using the only way they know they can, its their loophole. The eats koot guys or the peace guys would be the first ones to use it if they could.

So lets not blame the natives, its our governments fault, not Gordo but all the governments up to this point. No one wants to take a stand.

BHB

[KodiakHntr]

I have a pretty strong feeling you could very well be right BHB.

Have to wonder what it looks like to the residents there when June/July there is one truck they might see on the road, and then come start of moose season there's 10's of trucks a day headed in empty and out with moose legs poking up out of boats and trailers.

Although, I don't know that I would necessarily consider it a loophole when the FN there toss up a blockade....Illegal road blocks are just that, illegal. Regardless of ancestry.

[OOBuck]

I think its deliberate,

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

Dam straight!

[behemoth]

I find it interesting that people who often makes racist comments actually believes that people who object to their offensive speech are racists.

FYIW, I am a Canadian born of European ancestors with no native blood. I also believe that the police should've acted with arrests in the Klappan blockade.

Having said that, I have no issue with native land claims and think they should do everything legally in their power to get what is deserved. Canada is not the USA. Our ancestors tried to be more civilized in their approach and went the route of negotiation with treaties. Unfortunately it was not done in a correct manner and it has led us to this enormous mess that most sensible native people are trying to sort out legally.

The actions of this small minority has the unfortunate consequence of giving people validation for their anger towards a specific race.

BTW, I think the word "terrorist" is a tad strong in this context. I'm sure you could argue that in the literal definition people were scared when dealing with the illegal roadblocks, but I find the term imflammatory in this sense. To me, it is not a correct use of the word.

This is not a black and white issue and we should not treat it as such.

Peace, love and equality to all:-D

Behemoth

[KodiakHntr]

Well said, on all points.

Sidenote, after seeing how you signed off at the end of your post I'm thing I should end all mine with "Hugs and happy thoughts...." (grin)

[behemoth]

Yes that sounds like a good sig :-D

I find that while I am being accused of being overly sensitive in throwing out the race card, I am met with people being oversensitive about me throwing it out.

Peace, love and equality to all:-D

Behemoth

[Mik]

If it is on a public road and you don't want to drive around because it could escalate your fear of retaliation why don't you call the local Conservation Office. Let them know your concern and ask them wth is going on?
If they can't deal with it or won't then your sol. The CO should be able to tell you face to face what you can do. If you don't want to attempt driving around the rope. The CO in the nearest town should tell you exactly what a hunter can do.
jElvi$ -- Pick up the phone and phone right now and let us know exactly what they tell you on the Klappan road issue -- nearest town co.

I called, The CO said, yes there is a blockade....call the RCMP.....so I did....and was told; "do not come here as the road is blocked" I asked how, bulldozer? tress? boulders? people lying on the ground? and the answer was.."its blocked i see where you are going and recommend that you do not come to go thru the blockade as it will make my job that much more difficult!
I said it is illegal and you should disband the blockade! the answer was.."its not that simple"!

Where is our government? the RCMP have no control,the CO has no control....and what was the reply from MOE Barry Penners Office? "I will not negotiate with the Tahltan (Klabbona Keepers) while the blockade is up....well hello, there it is grow some balls Barry and disband them!!! what else needs to be done? why is everyone so afraid of these people??? alls it would take is one person in power to make a decision...O wait that might end a career!

[Gunner]

Political Correctness rules the land!The only group that the Government(any level of government!) has the balls to threaten with prosecution is white,taxpaying Canadian citizens.The rest can pretty well do as they please. Gunner

[Bowtime]

Did anyone consider this may not even be a native issue thing but one of Not in My Backyard by the local hunters.
BHB

Aren't the Local hunters Taltan? They are the only ones that can hunt moose in june/july. And by the video posted I'm almost sure that its FN's.

[Jelvis]

Take a look at post number 198 by Mik, read it good and think about your quest after reading it.
Thanks for phoning Mik you took the initiative and got the answer from the top brass and you see why it will never happen the way some are suggesting.
I know from talking personally with lots of people that this is the way it is for all governments and will remain that way for decades, until the Canadian Constitution is changed to suit your beliefs.
Jel - so now, please read it post 198 by Mik, and see what can be done by the co or cop
if anyone else told you, you wouldn't believe it or you would just get angrier so now you know what the law enforcement response is and your not alone.

[Jelvis]

In BC mostly used car salesman when I grew up were politicians they could sell you anything used or new -- the So Creds lol .

[pete_k]

Going from the smaller picture to a slightly larger picture, Has anyone ever seen a Lawyer move into a small town, hang his shingle out and make a living? They would starve to death quickly. It takes another Lawyer at the other end of town to get the balls rolling, so they may both survive.
Politicians have a pretty good understanding of the law. I am sure if a survey was done, one would find that many have been at one time or another in the Legal Profession.

The closest we'll come to taming the legal industry is reading Henry VI.
It's a self sustaining industry (profession?) for sure.
They provide the spark and we provide the fuel (principles).

Would not be as many lawyers if people would bend a little.
I'm getting sidetracked

[BimmerBob]

Going from the smaller picture to a slightly larger picture, Has anyone ever seen a Lawyer move into a small town, hang his shingle out and make a living? They would starve to death quickly. It takes another Lawyer at the other end of town to get the balls rolling, so they may both survive.
Politicians have a pretty good understanding of the law. I am sure if a survey was done, one would find that many have been at one time or another in the Legal Profession.

Right on Chris! That is the gist of a an old Lawyers saying it goes something like this... "There is no small town big enough to support one lawyer but there is no town too small that it won't provide a good living to two lawyers"

And... as far as politicians "professions", they are in a majority from the cloth of lawyers and lawyers are generally Poli-Sci grads and... I think Poli-Sci is one group that should not be supported with subsidised education as their sole purpose of study is to manipulate the public with BS. In my view Poli-Sci is not a science at all it is the study of emotional blackmail.

Ooops, sorry got a little on a rant there, I am sure you can all tell I have the highest regard for lawyers and their ilk... :confused:

[behemoth]

CSer, I see you have added a new word to your meager vocabulary, due to my influence, ...erudite.... Good for you and keep up the attempts to learn and I may assist you further.

However, before attempting to SOUND learned, erudite or even barely literate, I would suggest that you learn to employ the correct usage in your posts, so, that you will not further demonstrate your typical ignorance. It is correct to write or say, "WE erudite" etc., however, as shown, you clearly are not.........

You now threaten to ...go tactical... on me? Would that be done with your "traditional" stone axes or with "whitey's" weapons? I would LOVE to meet you in person, so, that you could repeat to my face the slur of ...orange sash... and the various times you have called me ...white trash... on the internet.

I NEVER forget and you can PM me again, as you just did, and this time arrange to meet me and TRY to do what you boast of here. I will BET that all you will do will be to make further illiterate comments and then boast about being ...erudite.... You have absolutely NO comprehension of what that term means and never will....and, you call me ...stupid...?

You should try a "Remedial English class" before making further idiotic comments here.

Before you start coaching people on their literacy, perhaps you should become aware of the proper use of quotation marks:wink:

[BimmerBob]

I called, The CO said, yes there is a blockade....call the RCMP.....so I did....and was told; "do not come here as the road is blocked" I asked how, bulldozer? tress? boulders? people lying on the ground? and the answer was.."its blocked i see where you are going and recommend that you do not come to go thru the blockade as it will make my job that much more difficult!
I said it is illegal and you should disband the blockade! the answer was.."its not that simple"!

Interesting, he is advising you to cower in the corner so that his job is easier. This is one of the problems we have, the police do not get to decide which laws they enforce, their job is to enforce them all.

And they (the police) wonder why they are losing the confidence of the citizens?

I ran into this a few years ago when my daughter who was 15 at the time, was induced into going with her 15 year old friend to the "home" of a 20 year old for a "party". The guy and his friend proceeded to get both girls inebriated and were hoping to have an intimate time with them. At about 11:00 PM, my wife got concerned, started looking for the girls (my daughter told us she was staying at the others place and her friend told her parents she was staying at our place). At midnight they finally tracked them down and brought them home.

I literally had to FORCE the local policing station to deal with the issue. Their excuse was that the girls were not "forced to drink", I eventually had to threaten the officers job if they did not deal with the young fellow with a written warning so that there was a record. He eventually ended up going to court with multiple charges for the same activity with other girls.

Anyway... the thing is, there ARE laws which can be used, and ARE means that can be employed to stop this illegal activity of road blockades. The police have the tools, they just do not have the will to use them. It is a common theme, it happens in all bureaucracies and police are a major bureaucracy. They need to be pushed to do their job and the age old excuse, of "it's not so simple" or "that just makes my job harder", is simply BS, either they do their job or look for another.

[Jelvis]

When the cop said, " You'll make my job much more difficult. " I think he was saying, it will be you I'll be taking down town.

[Devilbear]

Before you start coaching people on their literacy, perhaps you should become aware of the proper use of quotation marks:wink:

I have been assisting people with matters of literacy for well over forty years, first as an "English major" in high school, first in my class on every exam, then as an "Honours English" student at college and even as an independent bookstore owner. The method I used to emphasize the words within quotation marks is a correct method of doing so, although various forms of "highlighting" are also now commonplace and accepted in regular usage.

I do not have "Foster's" here, as I gave my copy to one of my nephews when he left to finish his M.A. at McMaster, he now is just finishing his "Doctor of Laws" at Osgoode Hall, however, I can soon get one and give you a precise reference in this respect.

You could, if you wish, give me a reference that is credible, which would verify your comment. However, I suspect that you may be a bit confused as to the written and spoken uses of the two types of quotation marks and that accounts for your error.

Punctuation is a "bitch" and it DOES change with regional dialects and even with nationality, as witness the "comma" used before "and" in the USA and this was dropped when I was in secondary school here in Canada and is now considered an error, yet, in the '30s, my mother was taught to do this.

So, I think that, overall, your point was a little forced and I would suggest that it also was not really based on any interest in language on your part, merely on your antagonism toward me and other conservatives like me, who tell the factual truth about social phenomena and do not accept the "false prophets" of the socialist left.

[Fisher-Dude]

Having said that, I have no issue with native land claims and think they should do everything legally in their power to get what is deserved.

And what would that be? Who says they deserve anything? Who determines what that is (or isn't)?

"Deserve" sounds way too much like a culture of entitlement to me. How about people "earn" what's theirs?

[Jelvis]

Read post number 198 by Mik and it will give you an idea that your not alone in the cando nothing category. So no use getting to uptight and make plans accordingly. Simple to understand if you read post 198 by Mik on here.
Read what the CO said, and the RCMP Officer and believe them. They have no reason to lie about it, they told Mik and he told us.
jEl el - post 198

[CanuckShooter]

CSer, I see you have added a new word to your meager vocabulary, due to my influence, ...erudite.... Good for you and keep up the attempts to learn and I may assist you further.

However, before attempting to SOUND learned, erudite or even barely literate, I would suggest that you learn to employ the correct usage in your posts, so, that you will not further demonstrate your typical ignorance. It is correct to write or say, "WE erudite" etc., however, as shown, you clearly are not.........

You now threaten to ...go tactical... on me? Would that be done with your "traditional" stone axes or with "whitey's" weapons? I would LOVE to meet you in person, so, that you could repeat to my face the slur of ...orange sash... and the various times you have called me ...white trash... on the internet.

I NEVER forget and you can PM me again, as you just did, and this time arrange to meet me and TRY to do what you boast of here. I will BET that all you will do will be to make further illiterate comments and then boast about being ...erudite.... You have absolutely NO comprehension of what that term means and never will....and, you call me ...stupid...?

You should try a "Remedial English class" before making further idiotic comments here.

I apologize if I have hurt your feelings :mrgreen:, our moderators have asked me to play nice with you and disregard your b++++++ outlook on life, and to ignore your implied slurs and threats of violence towards native people. Please don't invite me to repeat to your face what you say I have called you over the internet...:-D...although I am sure that if I had called you white trash, or made mention of white feathers...it was all in fun.:mrgreen: Can't you take a joke??

[CanuckShooter]

Why won't the govt do anything about illegal roadblocks in British Columbia?? This is what I think after talking to some lawyers that deal in aboriginal claims, and listening to speechs by FN speakers.

In British Columbia the Crown never entered into treaties with the First Nations governments that were here in BC when european people began to settle. The Crown basically just moved in and took over, in effect occupying the territory. Thus the opinion of the lawyers and some native leaders...is that we are living on occupied territory, land occupied by an invading force...land taken without treaty, without compensation, and land taken without the consent of native Governance.

It is my speculation that our governments may also think that they should deal with these situations with great care so as to not invite a direct legal challenge to their authority to govern.

[Devilbear]

I apologize if I have hurt your feelings :mrgreen:, our moderators have asked me to play nice with you and disregard your b++++++ outlook on life, and to ignore your implied slurs and threats of violence towards native people. Please don't invite me to repeat to your face what you say I have called you over the internet...:-D...although I am sure that if I had called you white trash, or made mention of white feathers...it was all in fun.:mrgreen: Can't you take a joke??

It's OK, I actually kind of like you and agree on far more issues than not, but, I just couldn't help myself here....it's that dammed Viking coming out, happens every winter, my car went TI this week and I can't get out hiking and snowshoeing and work off a little steam!

You better watch it, tho', I am taking SPEAR lessons from you know who!!!!! :)

[Fisher-Dude]

Why won't the govt do anything about illegal roadblocks in British Columbia?? This is what I think after talking to some lawyers that deal in aboriginal claims, and listening to speechs by FN speakers.

In British Columbia the Crown never entered into treaties with the First Nations governments that were here in BC when european people began to settle. The Crown basically just moved in and took over, in effect occupying the territory. Thus the opinion of the lawyers and some native leaders...is that we are living on occupied territory, land occupied by an invading force...land taken without treaty, without compensation, and land taken without the consent of native Governance.

It is my speculation that our governments may also think that they should deal with these situations with great care so as to not invite a direct legal challenge to their authority to govern.

Do the Saxons that "invaded" and settled in Britain in the 5th and 6th centuries face this same challenge? Nope. The lawyers working for the Indians will spin a lovely yarn. Don't drink the Koolaid.

There was no "governance" before Europeans settled here, either.

What kind of compensation do the Indians owe me from when they invaded the land of my white ancestor, Kennewick Man?

[BimmerBob]

Is this blockade still in effect? Anybody been there lately?

[Fisher-Dude]

In all fairness, we should offer the same settlement in land claims that Kennewick Man received.

An arrow in the ass? That's what he got.

[Jelvis]

It's called protocol and we are taught it, and how to respond to one and other in case of an incident, you have to be one or the other. An authority figure or a Status Indian who have been shown what is required of each, if an incident arises, like how and what is required to do when the two meet.
Common teaching at band level and in the courses for CO's.
Anyone else would not know the protocol because it does'nt apply to them, without a Status Indian card under the Indian Act or a CO who is a professional and is educated in this area.
These others would include non-native and natives without status.
jel-proper protocol between co's and status indian is taught at band level, we respect each other as family.

[ElkMasterC]

I apologize if I have hurt your feelings :mrgreen:, our moderators have asked me to play nice with you and disregard your b++++++ outlook on life, and to ignore your implied slurs and threats of violence towards native people. Please don't invite me to repeat to your face what you say I have called you over the internet...:-D...although I am sure that if I had called you white trash, or made mention of white feathers...it was all in fun.:mrgreen: Can't you take a joke??


Just do what I do, and put him on your "Ignore" list.
It's like having your neighbours yappy dog finally shut up.
The silence is blissful.
Worked for "Elker" too. Same class, different row.

[CanuckShooter]

Do the Saxons that "invaded" and settled in Britain in the 5th and 6th centuries face this same challenge? Nope. The lawyers working for the Indians will spin a lovely yarn. Don't drink the Koolaid.
There was no "governance" before Europeans settled here, either.
What kind of compensation do the Indians owe me from when they invaded the land of my white ancestor, Kennewick Man?


Actually it's pretty complicated legally, and historically. I don't think we could really give it much more than a simplistic explanation here..and besides I am not a lawyer.

The Queen of England [the Crown] passed a Royal Proclamation of 1763 {if my memory isn't completely full of holes}...that recognized aboriginal government and title, the Royal Proclamation also forbid the 'whiteman' from aquiring land directly from native peoples...that was reserved solely for the Crown to Treat for the land. This gives the legal recognition of a native government and title to the land, by the Queen under British Common Law....under which we still practice most of our law in Canada.

So it's gets simple when portrayed this way....no treaty was signed....the governments of our day are basically nothing more than invading forces..much like the USA is in Iraq..and the Queen never acknowledged mr. kennywick.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Devilbear http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=598719#post598719)
It becomes ever more obvious here, that there exists a small number of posters of partial indian ancestry and these continually whine, lie, make racist comments and slag others while accepting indian malfeasance as somehow justified. This is a reflection of society at large and it shows that ONLY a major attempt to solve this problem will prevent further such activities.

I favour "full-on" military action against any and all blockades, protests, threatening or harassing behaviour and the summary execution of individual aboriginal terrorists involved. THAT will sort out the situation and we decent Canadians can get back to our lives, in peace and quiet.

Whine, lie, and make racist comments? I dare you to find ONE example of this in ANY thread on this board, made by anyone of your description. You'll note perhaps where the racist comments and slagging come from if you view your own posts.

Execution....Over a pole balanced on three pieces of firewood. Interesting. I'm sure that would of solved a lot of problems had some of your beloved environmentalists been executed back during all the blockades of forest workers trying to feed their families in the Slocan Valley.

A little over the top there Dewey, even for you.

What's this about a pole balanced on three pieces of firewood??? Stumped here in the bush.??

[OOBuck]

The Queen of England [the Crown] passed a Royal Proclamation of 1763 {if my memory isn't completely full of holes}...that recognized aboriginal government and title, the Royal Proclamation also forbid the 'whiteman' from aquiring land directly from native peoples...that was reserved solely for the Crown to Treat for the land. This gives the legal recognition of a native government and title to the land, by the Queen under British Common Law....under which we still practice most of our law in Canada.

So it's gets simple when portrayed this way....no treaty was signed....the governments of our day are basically nothing more than invading forces..much like the USA is in Iraq..and the Queen never acknowledged mr. kennywick.


So take up your beef with the Queen then!

[Jelvis]

In the B.C. government early days they made a unforgivable mistake which cost everyone else in the process, that being and it is written as the reason it's done today. The government bought a piece of land off an Indian that had no land title, in other words a piece of land the person said he owned and yet had no title of purchase by the native fella. Therefore the land was bought and introduced the first purchase of land and that was why the government fella lost his job. The native got paid for land he had no papers on and it went from there after in the courts.
jel--believe it or not !

[Devilbear]

It was King George III, who signed the 1763 document and NOT a ...Queen...; this confirmed the relationship between certain aboriginals and "The Crown", but, as CSer points out, NOT those in B.C. This document COULD be negated by an Act of the Parliament of Canada, ANYTIME that the government chose, it is NOT "set in stone". I also question whether it really does apply to B.C. and would bet that a good lawyer could make a very strong case that it does NOT.

The situation that the government of BC is afraid of some sort of aboriginal governance is also rather far-fetched and I do not think this is the case. I think that, the "big boys" of corporate Canada and elsewhere WANT these situations to continue and for reasons not always apparent to we ordinary working stiffs.

I believe that the indians are being deliberately, "setup" and that the governments do not CARE about what WE think, as we are small in numbers and not politically very popular. We are also, very fragmented among ourselves and the Gordo gang knows this...reading just one of these threads concerning aboriginal hunting will show just what we are doing.

So, yup, I expect it WILL go on and we WILL rant and rave and nobody will do anything, until someone is shot or run over at one of these blockades, dies and THEN the shit will hit, etc.

It is a sad time in BC and Canada, people being manipulated into hating each other and all to benefit the few who will profit by the coming social upheaval. I used to believe in Canada and her status as a truely "just" nation; now, I just kinda feel cheated and disappointed by our governments. Anyway, write letters, but, I doubt that much will change.

[CanuckShooter]

OOBuck
""So take up your beef with the Queen then!""



I don't have a beef with the Queen...where are you coming from??

The Queens representative is our Federal Government...some lawyers have QC behind their title which means Queens Council....

If they don't settle these British Columbia Treaties...we can expect things will eventually get settled in our courts...or world courts. The First Nations are getting educated quite well and learning their way around in the legal system, it's just a matter of time.

[Jelvis]

Hey devilbear if you don't like Canada and our leaders and the laws etc, go back where your relatives are from, there's a boat or plane leaving everyday no one's begging you to stay, if your mother tung country is better like your trying to say, this is our Canada, if you don't like it, hop on a plane or boat and go bye bye.

[Devilbear]

My mother tongue, to spell it correctly, is English and my relatives came here almost 400 years ago; I really have nowhere else to go. Soooo, perhaps, I should stay here, in my "home and native land" and fight for my rights.

Generally, a comment like that is considered an insult, but, from you, well, who really cares what you post.

[Jelvis]

good response D Bear I dig it, You can stay. lol. We are all here together and I would mi$$ you if you did go.
jelly

[BimmerBob]

[quote=CanuckShooter;599050]I don't have a beef with the Queen...where are you coming from??

The Queens representative is our Federal Government...some lawyers have QC behind their title which means Queens Council....
quote]

Just a bit of a correction here. We as citizens of BC and Canada do not have the Federal Government representing us with the Queen.

The Federal Government is responsible for the governance of the Federation called Canada. The Queen has a representative to the Government of Canada called the Governor General. The Queen has a representative to the Government of The Province of British Columbia called the Lieutenant Governor. The government MP's and MLA's are our representatives and the only ones we have as citizens of this country and province.

The way I understand it the British Commonwealth and the British North America Act. were our basis for operating prior to the re-patriotation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it is really a kind of hodge podge of intermixed systems and regulations which is good for the lawyers as it gives them lots of word work.

QC is a status granted by the various BAR's and is simply based upon the British legal system which we as Canadians base our legal system on.

Confused yet? I am and have probably got some of this wrong as I type it... :mrgreen:

[CanuckShooter]

At that time it's highly unlikely she was aware of 'his' existence. As you're probably very aware, that is a discovery and information that came about not all that many years ago. With those findings, it definately leads to another possible/probable defination and conclusion as to who really was First Nations.

I can well imagine the 'negotiations' and settlements that took place when the ancestors of present day aboriginals invaded and 'claimed' the land. If, as I suspect, there is a DNA link between me and Kennewick Man, I can only think perhaps that's why the Queen and present day government is holding back. Have to settle with the correct group.

Guess it all depends on how you define "First Nations", or really what difference does it make?? It's like the constitution defining 'aboriginal peoples of Canada' as the Inuit, Indian, and Metis.....no mention of Mr. Kenny there. But then the constitution is wrong anyway...more like inuk, mohawk, cree, salish etc etc etc.....definitions don't always mean much.

[CanuckShooter]

I am in no way trying to be disrespectful CanuckShooter. I only wish that when you do resolve these issues, or go to court, that you will consider several Native families that live in the Interior Of B.C. Many of whom are my close friends. They still do not have running water and have to use the Outhouse. Maybe you can explain where all this money is going? It sure as hell is not going to them.

I don't have any part of making those decisions...and won't in the near future. The money? And where it all goes?? Your guess is as good as mine would be. I know lots goes towards funding and establishing 'democratic governance models' for aboriginal groups.

[Jelvis]

When a first nation goes across the US/Canadian border and uses his or her card they must produce how much Indian they are to the USA, 1 sixth 2 sixth 3 sixth etc a measure of sixths.
If they are a certain amount they can cross without anything else but they need the band to prove how much they are and carry a paper. The border cannot stop them if they are a certain amount. The Indians say there is no border it's only an imaginary line made up by someone. North America is their home.
How does that sound to you wise university types?
Believe it or not ?
Jel-Canada-US of A is all North American Continent
I don't think this Kenny fella would be allowed to cross without an enhanced drivers license.

[CanuckShooter]

True enough but what seems to be the all encompassing defination or designation of all the individual aboriginal groups, acknowledged and recognised by native and 'most' non-native groups alike is "First Nations". To me, the difference it makes, if that's the group going for land claims and restitution, then the first step is to define "First Nations". Once again, when many of the constitutional efforts were under way, much of the existence of Mr. Kenny Sir had not yet come to light. However, as it now has, it deserves address.

Maybe...who knows...the law isn't always logical...I would think that according to a certain good book we could always just go back to the beginning to define First Nations?? My best guess is that at the end of the day the telling difference will be "at the time of contact" was there a "functioning society with a form of government" type of legal wrangle...just my wild guess though!!

[kebes]

maybe a little off topic.....but I was in a class recently where the prof pointed out that 'the origins of peoples' a book produced by I believe national geographic (I'd have to check to confirm) suggests that contemporary genetic studies seem to point to all people coming from two people somewhere in Africa who the science community has, tongue in cheek, named (check the spelling) Mytochondreal Eve and Y-chromozone Adam. Perhaps we're all more related than some of us like to admit :).

[Ambush]

Why are we in this mess and why don't we fix it? I'll tell you why, as soon as you answer this queston.

How does one man get a hundred Canadians out of a swimming pool?

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"Everybody out of the pool please."

We're in this mess because we accept whatever is handed us by our elected officials. If it's not enough, we mumble under our breath and DO nothing. They lie to us and we forget. They steal from us and we forgive. They tell us one thing and do another, we let it go.
They ask us want we want and upon hearing our answer, they say no, and we accept it.
A citizenary has to become VERY, VERY angry before it is listened to, because it is feared. And it usualy starts with a small disenfrachised group that picks up speed and power as others join in.

Sheep do not instill fear.

Lions instill fear.

Maybe it is time to ROAR!!!

There will be martyrs, as in any good revolution.

Who will be our Chez Guavera?

[Gateholio]

maybe a little off topic.....but I was in a class recently where the prof pointed out that 'the origins of peoples' a book produced by I believe national geographic (I'd have to check to confirm) suggests that contemporary genetic studies seem to point to all people coming from two people somewhere in Africa who the science community has, tongue in cheek, named (check the spelling) Mytochondreal Eve and Y-chromozone Adam. Perhaps we're all more related than some of us like to admit :).

I think they examined DNA from all over the world and traced human origins to 11 "Eve's"

That's form memory, so I could be wrong.

[BimmerBob]

There will be martyrs, as in any good revolution.

Who will be our Chez Guavera?

I nominate Jelvis the Wise...

[bridger]

Why are we in this mess and why don't we fix it? I'll tell you why, as soon as you answer this queston.

How does one man get a hundred Canadians out of a swimming pool?

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"Everybody out of the pool please."

We're in this mess because we accept whatever is handed us by our elected officials. If it's not enough, we mumble under our breath and DO nothing. They lie to us and we forget. They steal from us and we forgive. They tell us one thing and do another, we let it go.
They ask us want we want and upon hearing our answer, they say no, and we accept it.
A citizenary has to become VERY, VERY angry before it is listened to, because it is feared. And it usualy starts with a small disenfrachised group that picks up speed and power as others join in.

Sheep do not instill fear.

Lions instill fear.

Maybe it is time to ROAR!!!

There will be martyrs, as in any good revolution.

Who will be our Chez Guavera?


x2 right on the money.

[pete_k]

I nominate Jelvis the Wise...

He will be happily missed and sadly remembered.
Or is that the other way around?

[kebes]

I think they examined DNA from all over the world and traced human origins to 11 "Eve's"

That's form memory, so I could be wrong.

I'd have to do some research, perhaps another day :)

[ElkMasterC]

maybe a little off topic.....but I was in a class recently where the prof pointed out that 'the origins of peoples' a book produced by I believe national geographic (I'd have to check to confirm) suggests that contemporary genetic studies seem to point to all people coming from two people somewhere in Africa who the science community has, tongue in cheek, named (check the spelling) Mytochondreal Eve and Y-chromozone Adam. Perhaps we're all more related than some of us like to admit :).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

[wetcoasthunter]

It is my speculation that our governments may also think that they should deal with these situations with great care so as to not invite a direct legal challenge to their authority to govern.

yaaaa, what a great strategy, its worked so far, the natives never kick up shit and never take the government to court.:confused:

definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome each time.

[Devilbear]

Why are we in this mess and why don't we fix it? I'll tell you why, as soon as you answer this queston.

How does one man get a hundred Canadians out of a swimming pool?

-
-
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-
-
-
-
-
-
-
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--
"Everybody out of the pool please."

We're in this mess because we accept whatever is handed us by our elected officials. If it's not enough, we mumble under our breath and DO nothing. They lie to us and we forget. They steal from us and we forgive. They tell us one thing and do another, we let it go.
They ask us want we want and upon hearing our answer, they say no, and we accept it.
A citizenary has to become VERY, VERY angry before it is listened to, because it is feared. And it usualy starts with a small disenfrachised group that picks up speed and power as others join in.

Sheep do not instill fear.

Lions instill fear.

Maybe it is time to ROAR!!!

There will be martyrs, as in any good revolution.

Who will be our Chez Guavera?

I have said as much here on this issue MANY times, we must DEMAND that our rights be respected and that all lawbreakers be dealt with by the RCMP with equal vigour.

I posted, at the beginning of this thread, that ALL terrorists should be dealt with in the same manner, without concern for their ethnic origins and that is what is the real issue, here. "Kennewick Man" has nothing to do with this blockade, he was not "European" and was very likely of "Beringian" origin, however, this is irrelevant.

We either have an egalitarian democracy based on the rule of law here or we will have a society of increasing racist conflict, social decay, cultural disintegration, violence, and, eventually, the probably onset of a fascist dictatorship......how close are we now?

[Jelvis]

No he's not lol. I don't hunt up the Klappan, and don't know the politics up there and what it's all about with the locals, the issues the concerns and the real problem. It's a complex issue and like always, the savior will be percieved as a young new leader who has all the answers and brings leadership and equality to all, and that ain't me. I'm an old hunter who hunts in region 3 mostly, set in my ways and way past my prime and that alone would'nt allow me to carry on my wayward son. So please maybe this is a job for a young brave creative minded person with a degree in BC history and psychology.
jel - I personally would roll with the punches and would not use violence at all in a road block situation it will eventually fade out hopefully real soon.

[sawmill]

I highly doubt it Jel,it`s been going on since the 80`s and it`s getting worse.

[Walking Buffalo]

Sorry for the font size. I could not reduce it. This story came to me today from a Native friend who is also very frustrated with Gov/Native Leadership.

It's late fall and the Indians on a remote reservation in British Columbia asked their new chief if the coming winter was going to be cold or mild.

Since he was a chief in a modern day society, he had never been taught the old secrets. When he looked at the sky, he couldn't tell what the winter was going to be like.


Nevertheless, to be on the safe side, he told his tribe that the winter was indeed going to be cold and that the members of the village should collect firewood to be prepared.

But, being a practical leader, after several days, he got an idea. He went to the phone booth, called Environment Canada and asked, 'Is the coming winter going to be cold?'

'It looks like this winter is going to be quite cold,' the meteorologist at the weather service responded.So the chief went back to his people and told them to collect even more firewood in order to be prepared.


A week later, he called Environment Canada again.'Does it still look like it is going to be a very cold winter?' 'Yes,' the man at Environment Canada again replied, 'it's going to be a very cold winter.'

The chief again went back to his people and ordered them to collect every scrap of firewood
they could find.Two weeks later, the chief called Environment Canada again. 'Are you absolutely sure that the winter is going to be very cold?'

'Absolutely,' the man replied. 'It's looking more and more like it is going to be one of the coldest winters we've ever seen.'

'How can you be so sure?' the chief asked.

The weatherman replied,'The Indians are collecting firewood like crazy.'

[pete_k]

hahaha..Good way to start my day.
Thanks for the post.

[behemoth]

I have been assisting people with matters of literacy for well over forty years, first as an "English major" in high school, first in my class on every exam, then as an "Honours English" student at college and even as an independent bookstore owner. The method I used to emphasize the words within quotation marks is a correct method of doing so, although various forms of "highlighting" are also now commonplace and accepted in regular usage.

I do not have "Foster's" here, as I gave my copy to one of my nephews when he left to finish his M.A. at McMaster, he now is just finishing his "Doctor of Laws" at Osgoode Hall, however, I can soon get one and give you a precise reference in this respect.

You could, if you wish, give me a reference that is credible, which would verify your comment. However, I suspect that you may be a bit confused as to the written and spoken uses of the two types of quotation marks and that accounts for your error.

Punctuation is a "bitch" and it DOES change with regional dialects and even with nationality, as witness the "comma" used before "and" in the USA and this was dropped when I was in secondary school here in Canada and is now considered an error, yet, in the '30s, my mother was taught to do this.

So, I think that, overall, your point was a little forced and I would suggest that it also was not really based on any interest in language on your part, merely on your antagonism toward me and other conservatives like me, who tell the factual truth about social phenomena and do not accept the "false prophets" of the socialist left.

:rolleyes:
So how does this ignore button thing work?

[Devilbear]

Why not simply drop the whole foolish issue and BOTH of us try to concentrate on the more important issues concerning these blockades and their potentially disastrous affects on both "our" hunting and the future of social harmony and cohesion in BC?

I don't know you, have no particular animosity toward you and am far more concerned with conservation and genuine social equality than with continuing an interpersonal spat. So, maybe consider calling it a "draw" and moving on?

[behemoth]

Why not simply drop the whole foolish issue and BOTH of us try to concentrate on the more important issues concerning these blockades and their potentially disastrous affects on both "our" hunting and the future of social harmony and cohesion in BC?

I don't know you, have no particular animosity toward you and am far more concerned with conservation and genuine social equality than with continuing an interpersonal spat. So, maybe consider calling it a "draw" and moving on?

Done :-D

[Kootenai]

I read the first four pages on this subject and then it was all being repeated in different words. What disturbs me is most people here are dumping all the First Nations people into one kettle. I don't know a lot of First Nations People, I have met a few, I have worked with a few and I have liked most of them. Let's look at this problem realistically. A logging company wants to log in some water shed. A group of ( I'll say mostly white) protestors show up, blockade the road and stop the logging. Now, do those protestors represent every white person in BC? Of course not! Why then, are a few First Nations protesting and blocking a road being construed as all the First Nations People? What do these people want? I believe they want what we want; What we are entitled to. The Tahltan are seeing less and less moose. By law, they have entitlement to these moose before we, whitey's are. The question is: Are there less moose? Yes or no? The Tahltan say there are less, as they see less, we say no, there are not less. Who is right? I believe there has been no actual moose count in the area for a long time, due to budget restraints, to prove the facts either way. Rather than jump on the government to jump on the First Nations, lets jump on the government to get their butts in gear, come up with the money to count the moose and settle the matter on how many moose there are. The moose count outcome will then justify what is to be done.

[VI Blackdog]

Kootenai, well said. +1

[Deadshot]

I would think that moose numbers are well up in that area as that road was deactivated for quite some time. I haven't heard of a mass die-off in the Skeena region lately. Will the natives take down the blockade with the promise of a count? I doubt it. Very likely, there will be no access into that area this coming hunting season, putting more pressure on other northern areas & in turn, pissing off more people.

[Bowtime]

I read the first four pages on this subject and then it was all being repeated in different words. What disturbs me is most people here are dumping all the First Nations people into one kettle. I don't know a lot of First Nations People, I have met a few, I have worked with a few and I have liked most of them. Let's look at this problem realistically. A logging company wants to log in some water shed. A group of ( I'll say mostly white) protestors show up, blockade the road and stop the logging. Now, do those protestors represent every white person in BC? Of course not! Why then, are a few First Nations protesting and blocking a road being construed as all the First Nations People? What do these people want? I believe they want what we want; What we are entitled to. The Tahltan are seeing less and less moose. By law, they have entitlement to these moose before we, whitey's are. The question is: Are there less moose? Yes or no? The Tahltan say there are less, as they see less, we say no, there are not less. Who is right? I believe there has been no actual moose count in the area for a long time, due to budget restraints, to prove the facts either way. Rather than jump on the government to jump on the First Nations, lets jump on the government to get their butts in gear, come up with the money to count the moose and settle the matter on how many moose there are. The moose count outcome will then justify what is to be done.


I'm not one to say they are all bad, because I know many that I have alot of respect for. But the way they went about it was wrong in my opinion. I was not affected but know of many people that were. I know of two people that were denied access to go sheep hunting. wasn't this about the moose? I think people must ask themselves two questions, why did they block the road during hunting season? It would make more sense to block it prior to hunting season if they notice moose numbers were down. And if residents were ordered to get get of the Area, Was the outfitter in the area orded to stop hunting moose Also?

[Gateholio]

I read the first four pages on this subject and then it was all being repeated in different words. What disturbs me is most people here are dumping all the First Nations people into one kettle. I don't know a lot of First Nations People, I have met a few, I have worked with a few and I have liked most of them. Let's look at this problem realistically. A logging company wants to log in some water shed. A group of ( I'll say mostly white) protestors show up, blockade the road and stop the logging. Now, do those protestors represent every white person in BC? Of course not! Why then, are a few First Nations protesting and blocking a road being construed as all the First Nations People? What do these people want? I believe they want what we want; What we are entitled to. The Tahltan are seeing less and less moose. By law, they have entitlement to these moose before we, whitey's are. The question is: Are there less moose? Yes or no? The Tahltan say there are less, as they see less, we say no, there are not less. Who is right? I believe there has been no actual moose count in the area for a long time, due to budget restraints, to prove the facts either way. Rather than jump on the government to jump on the First Nations, lets jump on the government to get their butts in gear, come up with the money to count the moose and settle the matter on how many moose there are. The moose count outcome will then justify what is to be done.

The logging protester people probably won't be seen to represent white people because they don't bring up the subject of race. The native protesters ALWAYS bring up the subject of thier race and what they believe their race entitles them to.

Rest assured the rest of the white people that look like logging protesters will be lumped in the same category as the protesters, regardless of their participation. Humans nature is to categorize like that.:wink:

[pete_k]

The moral of this whole story is that the Government and RCMP are not dealing with it.
If one is willing to protest vehemently enough, they back down and let the situation "hopefuly" defuse itself.
The Government conveniently says "We won't talk to you till you behave". Which really means "this is too hot for me, I'm outta here".
Then the RCMP keep everyone away from eachother till it's time to hit the showers.

The fact that the law is being broken here is lost.
Untill we all play by the same rules we can make no progress.
And although I agree with need for a moose count I must totaly disagree with the road block (regardless of how nobel it may seem to some) You have to learn to play the system, not beat it or circumvent it.

I for one would like to see all the documentation of 30 years worth of FN attempts to get the MOE to count the moose in that area.

[ElkMasterC]

I for one would like to see all the documentation of 30 years worth of FN attempts to get the MOE to count the moose in that area.

I would like to see THAT, the Easter Bunny, and where all my damn socks went over the years.

[THE SWEDE]

I would like to see THAT, the Easter Bunny, and where all my damn socks went over the years.

Check your pants

[ElkMasterC]

Check your pants


A rare miss for you.

[Devilbear]

The moral of this whole story is that the Government and RCMP are not dealing with it.
If one is willing to protest vehemently enough, they back down and let the situation "hopefuly" defuse itself.
The Government conveniently says "We won't talk to you till you behave". Which really means "this is too hot for me, I'm outta here".
Then the RCMP keep everyone away from eachother till it's time to hit the showers.

The fact that the law is being broken here is lost.
Untill we all play by the same rules we can make no progress.
And although I agree with need for a moose count I must totaly disagree with the road block (regardless of how nobel it may seem to some) You have to learn to play the system, not beat it or circumvent it.

I for one would like to see all the documentation of 30 years worth of FN attempts to get the MOE to count the moose in that area.

Excellent post, completely agree and you have "said it all", BUT, what scares me about this, is that these various protests are becoming so commonplace and often violent, as witness "Caledonia" and "Oka", that SOON people are going to be seriously injured or even killed....and I do not want to see that.

This is why I believe that ALL, not only aboriginal blockades and similar illegal activities must be stopped at once and by the Canadian Forces, if necessary. We ALL have the right to a peaceful life in Canada and none of us have the right to take that from our fellow Canucks, for any reason.

[ElkMasterC]

Devilbear (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/member.php?u=8234) This message is hidden because Devilbear is on your ignore list (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/profile.php?do=editlist). It's like Christmas every damn day.
I highly recommend it.

[The Watcher]

It's like Christmas every damn day.
I highly recommend it.


Glad I'm not alone there.......

[Jelvis]

Good see yah lol-

[22savage]

Maybe a total ban on all moose hunting in the klappan is in order . No first nations ,guide outfitters or resident hunting until the supposed conservation numbers are known.The road block only seems to benifiting the first nations and guide outfitters while laying blame on the resident hunters . jmo

[browningboy]

Good see yah lol-

Jel, do you even hunt?:confused: As no one has ever seen your pic or storey of a kill? I know you are a member of the FLIC though, or from what I seen??:wink:

[browningboy]

Well screw it, if I don't get an LEH or tax return I'm blocking a road...seems silly doesn't it?:wink:

[yukon john]

Ive met a quite a few tahltan, in fact its strange that they dont have enough moose to feed themselves because they used to get all of the meat from our outfit (which is a lot of moose and caribou) but I assumed that they had far to much meat when we went to the dump and found all the carcasses from the season. Or how bout the fellows who hammered a cow on the side of the cassiar highway then DRAGGED it home behind the pick up the left it in the driveway for their dogs

[Devilbear]

It's like Christmas every damn day.
I highly recommend it.

I'm glad that you are happy, but, now I won't be able to tell you where all your socks are!

[uraarchr]

werent they blockading and whining a few years ago about shell and petroleum exploration and ecological disaster and sacred headwaters.newspaper headlines and national tv.now shell is back in there and they sure fergot about ecological disaster quick .i guess the payoff was good $$ .and they forgot about all that.money will do that.now they want to corner the guided hunting market there too.$$i think that we ALL SHOULD PAY TAXES as most Canadians do.and all should have access(blockade out the parasites that r gettin a free ride)

[Jelvis]

22savage
.............I'll give you a headsup ..total ban on moose hunting you want?
..you got the order wrong, you got 1st Nation then guide outfitters then residents
.. some on here say there's lots of moose there the roads closed
.. if like most blame natives for low numbers of animals there and not enuff for residents to hunt
... your saying everything is blamed on the resident hunters
.. I don't want you to think I'm saying your wrong or right
.. What I'm saying is you don't understand the rules and laws and constitution
.. most here don't they seem to think they know but in reality it's a way of letting off steam and that's ok too
.. If the hunting is closed or shortened or bag limits reduced
.. or if it's closed to hunting all together.
...only Status Indians could hunt under the Canadian Constitution and the B.C Wild Life Act Only for conservation reasons can they stop with co-operation with B.C. government.
..so what i'm trying to convey without someone blowing a gasket is
Summary
If you and others, keep saying the natives are taking all the animals they can, and there's no moose, sheep or grizzly left. You will be the first nation in this case, the first to be banned from hunting there for moose, sheep and grizzly you're shooting yourself in the foot and others like you.
Suggestion ... find a way of communicating so you won't hurt your hunt that you plan for, pick a different spot this season for leh draws and see what happens up in the Clap and be patient, cuz you can still hunt moose and other big game in lots of spots and maybe next year the situation might be ended.
Good luck in your leh draws and the season in 2010
Jelly, please think before posting , and be cool and think about that.
Thank You thankya very mush. Any questions at all I will try to answer from this view.

[Elkhound]

The swede is gone and this kind of comment should not and will not be tolerated.

[22savage]

Hey Jelvis I did not put the list of user's in any particular order. I only wanted to state that if there is a conservation issue that maybe we should get the proper infomation, so that we will all have access to the resources that will result in all natives, guide outfitters and residents hunters to enjoy.

[uraarchr]

we actually saw and spoke to shell workers at a wellhead;and saw shell trucks.what they were doing i dont know.but they were there.

[Jelvis]

browning hey it's jelly, how ya doooin? lol.
I'm not going to ask you what those letters are, lol. but yah I hunt, I hunt deer in Kamloops area, and have shot some.
I like moose hunting but have'nt hunted moose since 2000. I always say I'm going moose hunting but it's warm down here til November then gets cold lol.
If you don't get that money your looking for there, you jokingly said your putting up a road block. That made me think...what if browny put up a road block on a public road up north, in hunting season with Eric Estrada?
That would stop the hunters at least for to get his autograph then you could have a problem when those lower mainlanders and islanders with horses and boats wanted to go through. lol. I would'nt want to try that either, lol so hopefully this will pan out soon, and we can all go where we want.
jElvi$ the Pelvi$

[browningboy]

browning hey it's jelly, how ya doooin? lol.
I'm not going to ask you what those letters are, lol. but yah I hunt, I hunt deer in Kamloops area, and have shot some.
I like moose hunting but have'nt hunted moose since 2000. I always say I'm going moose hunting but it's warm down here til November then gets cold lol.
If you don't get that money your looking for there, you jokingly said your putting up a road block. That made me think...what if browny put up a road block on a public road up north, in hunting season with Eric Estrada?
That would stop the hunters at least for to get his autograph then you could have a problem when those lower mainlanders and islanders with horses and boats wanted to go through. lol. I would'nt want to try that either, lol so hopefully this will pan out soon, and we can all go where we want.
jElvi$ the Pelvi$


Seems like you've been doing this a while so I would love to see some of your pics! BTW where is my card!:wink:

[pete_k]

Seems like you've been doing this a while so I would love to see some of your pics! BTW where is my card!:wink:

I asked Jel for some photo proof and I was promptly ignored 2 or 3 times.
He probably does'nt even own a gun I think. Or know the difference between a donkey and a do-hicky.
He sure can talk the talk though.

[Jelvis]

You can see the pics on the site I got three of my biggest ones the mule deer bucks probably bigger than the muleys you got lol. 180+ typ and a 200+ non, so there yah go hugo look em up, just don't try blocking me on any road I'll bring my buddy, Iron Mike along, lol.
Jel -- you'll Tap out ! lol. or " You shoulda Tapped." lol.