Big Game Outfitters

[6616]

Thanks for the compliment Willy that was my idea guess the good old boys in the fed were good for something after all.


:wink::wink::wink::wink::wink:

[Gateholio]

Under your name it says "Senior Member"

Look under WIlly 442's name, you will see "Sheep Sheriff"
:-D

[Ambush]

Well, I'm not going sheep hunting this fall. That'll save one, so I'm doing my part.
Anybody want the one I would've killed if I went?

I like sheep. I like sheep hunting. It's the sheep hunters I find mostly intolerable.

[Lucky77_]

hear, hear Ambush

[willy442]

originally posted by Willy

The old regulations of take a Ram every year if over the age of 8 or every three years if a was taken underage, was the best Sheep management tool we had. It kept the guides in the back country hunting old rams and stopped the slaughter of 6 and 7 year olds. Why is it gone or not reimplimented. What is wrong with putting a higher expectation on the trophy hunter?

Thanks for the compliment Willy that was my idea guess the good old boys in the fed were good for something after all.

No problem giving credit where it's due.
Happy New Year

[willy442]

Under your name it says "Senior Member"

Look under WIlly 442's name, you will see "Sheep Sheriff"
:-D

I started running a 4 hunter sheep camp at the age of 18. The three guides that worked with me were directly under my wing and all had come up through the ranks of wrangler, Moose guide etc, as Chris mentioned. Sheriffs or CO's really weren't required because as stated by Chris "The Boss would usually have apiece of your ass cheek if you screwed up.
The sheriff thing was never required until I starting watching some of the dinks that have come in. The bright side is even with all the crap on here, I like to believe the posts have at least gotten the Sheep hunters to think about age and quaility.

[Deaddog]

I find that misleading considering there is very little data on Stones Sheep prior to WWII (and the Alaska Highway being built). To say it's at a historical high is far fetched...

In the history I am aware of it would seem the population is at a historical LOW. Some feel rosy about losing 50% of our sheep in only a few decades. I don't. Wolf control or not... That sucks!

Carl


No one feels rosy about having sheep populations at risk, however the point I am trying to make is that at this point and time, according to those that have scientific data regarding sheep populations, the populations are not at risk and furthermore the current harvest of rams is more than sustainable, putting sheep on LEH or one in three at this point makes no sense unless your are strictly managing for trophy's for a select few people, I believe when we are trying to build hunter numbers the last thing we need to do is put restrictions in place when from a conservation point there is no need to do so.

[Fisher-Dude]

What burns my ass is these outfitters that shoot sheep and then just sell the mount to some rich ba$tard for a pile of money. To me, that's really disgraceful and disrespects the sheep. :(

[bigwhiteys]

No one feels rosy about having sheep populations at risk, however the point I am trying to make is that at this point and time, according to those that have scientific data regarding sheep populations, the populations are not at risk

Not at risk...? The population has only shrunk 50%+ in the last few decades... And you're trying to sugar coat it by saying... "Well hey guys... The population is at an all time historical high..."

Sorry Jim - I am not buying into that crap... We are either proactive with our sheep management or we get caught with our pants down a few years down the road.


furthermore the current harvest of rams is more than sustainable, putting sheep on LEH or one in three at this point makes no sense unless your are strictly managing for trophy's for a select few people,

Sheep hunters are already a select few... A tiny fraction of the total hunters in BC. Sustainable...? For how long at this rate? What happens after a bad winter? or two?


I believe when we are trying to build hunter numbers the last thing we need to do is put restrictions in place when from a conservation point there is no need to do so.

1 in 3 is hardly a restriction for those who educate themselves on sheep and then exhibit a little self control instead of pulling the trigger on a young ram. Is that really so hard...? Is it really out to lunch to have that sort of expectation of a "sheep hunter"...?

Or are you one of the guys who feels if someone has tried for a few years with nothing to show for it, they need to kill something to stay "hooked"? I beleive you told me something to that effect once. Something I wholeheartedly don't agree with.

Sheep are not the animal we should be using to recruit hunters... That should be Deer, Moose, Black Bear and Elk and pretty much in that order based on resident demand.

Carl

[willy442]

No one feels rosy about having sheep populations at risk, however the point I am trying to make is that at this point and time, according to those that have scientific data regarding sheep populations, the populations are not at risk and furthermore the current harvest of rams is more than sustainable, putting sheep on LEH or one in three at this point makes no sense unless your are strictly managing for trophy's for a select few people, I believe when we are trying to build hunter numbers the last thing we need to do is put restrictions in place when from a conservation point there is no need to do so.

How can you even begin to make the above statement? Look at the Nevis Creek Valley, Sikanni River, Halfway River, Besa River. Prophet River and some area's along the Alaska Highway. These area's at one time held alot of Sheep and in this day and age it's damn near impossible to find one let alone mature Rams. Yet our sheep herds are doing fine! Taking your incomplete SCIENTIFIC data and applying it to whats left will be a sure decimation of our Northern Sheep. I fully agree with Chris on this and have also seen the disaster of some Biological materials that have been applied.

On another note I see in other posts where alot of credit was given to the 1980's wolf control program. Let me remind you that most wolves taken were well away from most of the Sheep. Only on the Muskawa and Kechieka were the winter ranges targeted. The one in three and quota system with reduction to G/O's created as much good for the sheep as the wolf kill.

[Devilbear]

Biologists, being as human as, say SHEEP GUIDES, (pause to genuflect here) CAN and sometimes DO make errors. However, one of the first principles one learns in Biological Studies, is that any conclusion MUST be supported by repeated experiments, observations and regular testing.

Science is about MEASUREMENT of observable phenomena in "nature" and thus many conclusions and consequent prescriptions are changing, just as natural systems and onrganisms do over time. No reputable and/or professional scientist will EVER state that his empirically-based opinions on Stone's Sheep or Mule Deer management are flawless, perfect or "true", and, in fact, will welcome further testing by himself and others.

I have never heard of a "Marine Biologist" managing wild ungulates and I have known many BC and other biologists, my nephew ( who IS a "Marine Bio.), holds a Phd. and teaches in Queensland, born and raised in Nanaimo and with a Bsc. from Malaspina, certainly would never comment professionally on such a topic.

The major SHEEP problem I recall, was in the East Kootenays, back when I was just graduating from high school and considering a career in either the Fish&Wildlife or the Forest Service....what can I say, I was young, idealistic and loved the bush, but I learned, yes, indeedy, I certainly learned. This was the "pneumonia" so-called, that ravaged the RM Bighorns and there were those who attributed this epidemic to the practices of the local ranchers who ran cattle on the "winter range" of the RMBH and thus it would not support the sheep, who were thus weakened and succumbed to the infection.

Some ranchers are also (ta ra) SHEEP GUIDES, and even THEY might not always be "right", eh?, Funny, how SHEEP GUIDES quit hunting and mountain hiking so comparatively young in life; I have quite a number of friends well into their 70s, retired biologists, who still hike, backpack, hunt without a quad and spend a lot of time alone in the wilderness.....like me, they don't even own a "fifth wheel", "camper" or "motorhome".

I place FAR MORE credence in the opinions on sheep and other ungulate management of biolgists such as Valerius Geist, than I do on those of those whose "credentials" are largely based on their own biases. How many of these SHEEP GUIDES, ( obeisances here, please) have actually spent a full winter ALONE in northwestern BC, in a tiny log hut, while studying wild sheep........

[willy442]

What burns my ass is these outfitters that shoot sheep and then just sell the mount to some rich ba$tard for a pile of money. To me, that's really disgraceful and disrespects the sheep. :(

Heads and mounts re sold or traded every day. I suppose you are gullible enough to believe Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's actually shot all the animals you and others like to admire on rare visits. Horns are also picked up from winter kills and even replicas produced. Why don't you quit grasping at straws.

[325 wsm]

1 in 3 years or even 1 in 5 years would be a good policy for rifle hunting but then allow the hunter to archery hunt for 1 more sheep the remaining 2 to 4 years. This would still allow the diehards to hunt and spend the time in the mountains year after year and keep the harvest rate low.
I know.....who's going to make sure they actually kill it with an arrow....
but if they use a gun they are just another poacher.

[willy442]

Biologists, being as human as, say SHEEP GUIDES, (pause to genuflect here) CAN and sometimes DO make errors. However, one of the first principles one learns in Biological Studies, is that any conclusion MUST be supported by repeated experiments, observations and regular testing.

Science is about MEASUREMENT of observable phenomena in "nature" and thus many conclusions and consequent prescriptions are changing, just as natural systems and onrganisms do over time. No reputable and/or professional scientist will EVER state that his empirically-based opinions on Stone's Sheep or Mule Deer management are flawless, perfect or "true", and, in fact, will welcome further testing by himself and others.

I have never heard of a "Marine Biologist" managing wild ungulates and I have known many BC and other biologists, my nephew ( who IS a "Marine Bio.), holds a Phd. and teaches in Queensland, born and raised in Nanaimo and with a Bsc. from Malaspina, certainly would never comment professionally on such a topic.

The major SHEEP problem I recall, was in the East Kootenays, back when I was just graduating from high school and considering a career in either the Fish&Wildlife or the Forest Service....what can I say, I was young, idealistic and loved the bush, but I learned, yes, indeedy, I certainly learned. This was the "pneumonia" so-called, that ravaged the RM Bighorns and there were those who attributed this epidemic to the practices of the local ranchers who ran cattle on the "winter range" of the RMBH and thus it would not support the sheep, who were thus weakened and succumbed to the infection.

Some ranchers are also (ta ra) SHEEP GUIDES, and even THEY might not always be "right", eh?, Funny, how SHEEP GUIDES quit hunting and mountain hiking so comparatively young in life; I have quite a number of friends well into their 70s, retired biologists, who still hike, backpack, hunt without a quad and spend a lot of time alone in the wilderness.....like me, they don't even own a "fifth wheel", "camper" or "motorhome".

I place FAR MORE credence in the opinions on sheep and other ungulate management of biolgists such as Valerius Geist, than I do on those of those whose "credentials" are largely based on their own biases. How many of these SHEEP GUIDES, ( obeisances here, please) have actually spent a full winter ALONE in northwestern BC, in a tiny log hut, while studying wild sheep........

Devil Bear; I for one have spent 2 full winters in our old area, feeding horses, trapping and watching Sheep, Moose and Caribou on thier winter range. Many in the Toad River area have learned about Sheep by watching the herds that appear across the river from the lodge and this includes some of our old Bio's.

[horshur]

On another note I see in other posts where alot of credit was given to the 1980's wolf control program. Let me remind you that most wolves taken were well away from most of the Sheep. Only on the Muskawa and Kechieka were the winter ranges targeted. The one in three and quota system with reduction to G/O's created as much good for the sheep as the wolf kill.

I hope the data from the GPS collared wolves in BC is made public just so we may see how incredible they are.....I heard that a wolf was collared in the west-west chilcotin got hit on the highway in Jasper a month or so later....

click on link

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/12/wolfs-north-pole-treks/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Ind ex+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

[willy442]

I hope the data from the GPS collared wolves in BC is made public just so we may see how incredible they are.....I heard that a wolf was collared in the west-west chilcotin got hit on the highway in Jasper a month or so later....

click on link

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/12/wolfs-north-pole-treks/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Ind ex+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Some of our Canadian Wolves even showed up in Yellow Stone Park! Amazing!

[Devilbear]

The foregoing was in reply to Chris's derisive remarks on biologists. It was intended as a "heads up" about the human fact that ALL OF US can make errors.....even, I hear, the mighty Gatehouse! :)

That said, Carl's comments here and those of Rich aka "Bridger" make a LOT of sense to me. I also agree with Willy on the whole self-restraint issue, better training in sheep identification and so forth. I honestly cannot imagine WHY anyone would WANT to kill more than ONE ram of each sheep species per lifetime.....but, then, I studied biology and am a lifelong "environmentalist"..........

[325 wsm]

this might piss some of you trophy hunters off but I've shot half a dozen rams (in the Yukon)just for the meat. Horn soup aint that great no matter how big they are.

[bigwhiteys]

this might piss some of you trophy hunters off but I've shot half a dozen rams (in the Yukon)just for the meat. Horn soup aint that great no matter how big they are

We are in BC and I fail to see your point? Are you proud of yourself? I think a Moose would make more soup :)

Carl

[Fisher-Dude]

Heads and mounts re sold or traded every day. I suppose you are gullible enough to believe Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's actually shot all the animals you and others like to admire on rare visits. Horns are also picked up from winter kills and even replicas produced. Why don't you quit grasping at straws.

Yeah, the only reason it's OKAY is because YOU have done it. Shot a sheep just to SELL it. Why didn't you show some restraint - you've killed a pile of sheep, so many that you shot them just to sell the mounts, yet now that YOU don't hunt them anymore, no one else should be able to kill more than one. Hypocrisy at its finest.

[bigwhiteys]

Yeah, the only reason it's OKAY is because YOU have done it. Shot a sheep just to SELL it. Why didn't you show some restraint - you've killed a pile of sheep, so many that you shot them just to sell the mounts, yet now that YOU don't hunt them anymore, no one else should be able to kill more than one. Hypocrisy at its finest.

My dad has shot and killed 2 rams 1 stone and 1 dall. My grandpa FOUND that 47" stone ram (you're reffering to) in an avalanche slide and had it mounted. A museum bought the ram...

Carl

[Fisher-Dude]

Believing all the scientific crap that is put out by Biologists, is one of the reasons the Province is in the shape it’s in. Who wrote this scientific crap? Did he study sheep populations? Does he have credentials to prove such? Or did he get his degree studying Sea shells.
I witnessed the total destruction of the largest Deer herd at the once famous Empire Valley. They have never recovered because the balance od nature was tipped to far. Thousands of deer were outright slaughtered with three deer per hunter. The recommendations came from the ‘’scientific pros’’ that decided they had to be harvested in those numbers. Everyone tried to protect the Deer population at Empire. Including the land owner. That is a very sore subject with me and am prepared to take on the whole Forum.

Total destruction? By who's definition? What were the management objectives of the deer herd - to provide resident hunters with meat to feed their families, or to grow trophy bucks for you to sell to wealthy foreign hunters? And, we might add, rutted out old bucks that probably ended up as dog food because they were close to inedible.

The vast majority of BC's hunters are meat hunters, and game should be managed to meet their requirements, not the requirements of foreign trophy hunters.

[325 wsm]

Big whiteys I was just expressing to Devilbear why 1 person might want to shoot more than 1 sheep and stated it was in the Yukon because we have the sheep population to sustain that type of harvest level due to our lower hunter numbers. Wasn't trying to brag but sorry if it offended you.

[bigwhiteys]

Big whiteys I was just expressing to Devilbear why 1 person might want to shoot more than 1 sheep and stated it was in the Yukon because we have the sheep population to sustain that type of harvest level due to our lower hunter numbers. Wasn't trying to brag but sorry if it offended you.

No offence taken... And yes, you do have the numbers to support that kind of harvest. We don't really in BC.

Carl

[Deaddog]

In response to a few of the statements...lets for take all the unreliable scientific data and throw it away.... now how should we manage our sheep and based on what criteria????

[Gateholio]

this might piss some of you trophy hunters off but I've shot half a dozen rams (in the Yukon)just for the meat. Horn soup aint that great no matter how big they are.

I don't se anything wrong with shooting a legal ram for meat, rather than trophy.

Is there something wrong with shooting a ram to eat it rather than mount it?

[willy442]

Yeah, the only reason it's OKAY is because YOU have done it. Shot a sheep just to SELL it. Why didn't you show some restraint - you've killed a pile of sheep, so many that you shot them just to sell the mounts, yet now that YOU don't hunt them anymore, no one else should be able to kill more than one. Hypocrisy at its finest.

OK: Mr Bean Counter. I have killed 1 ram for myself after hunting them for many years. The Ram I choose to take for myself is 43.5 inches long and makes the Boone and Crockett, although I see no need to enter it into thier records. You Mr CLUELESS are again making assumptions about something you know nothing about. Granted any Ram I guided for I could have shot myself had I had a firearm, however in all my guiding years I never carried one unless Bear hunting. For the most part the hunters I guided over the years took 1 Ram life time. Thier is a very small portion that exceeded that to 2 or 3 but they are not the norm. Also if you read my posts and opened your eyes. I talk about hunting more than 1 Ram being ok if you are proggressively shooting better or MATURE RAMS, not dinks.

On the Ram you are accusing me of selling, lets clear that up so you do have some actual facts to draw on.

In the winter of 1969 two big Rams were killed in a snow slide up the Racing River where we wintered our packstring. When rounding up horses in the spring for us and the owner (BOB KJOS) of Stone Mountain Safari's, one of our employee's by the name of Howard Lynch came across the 2 Rams. The game department was contacted and we were issued a permit to pick up the heads. My father paid Howard 1000.00 dollars for the one Ram and he kept the other for some time before selling it to a nonresident also for 1000.00 dollars. The Ram dad had was lifesize mounted and displayed in our lodge for many years until a fellow from California came along and just had to have it. The Ram was never shot as you indicate and was sold on the terms that it was a picked up head. I fail to see what the issue is or how your post gives any credibility to your accussations.
You should from now on try and have some knowledge about the claims you make.

[Fisher-Dude]

The entry in the BC book shows it as "killed by Red Sorenson", not as picked up. You may want to contact them and get it corrected.

[willy442]

In response to a few of the statements...lets for take all the unreliable scientific data and throw it away.... now how should we manage our sheep and based on what criteria????

With Sheep setting the harvest levels. Not guides or resident hunters. To do this we need proper studies and counts preferably over much smaller units than we have now. The issue being sheep are not everywhere in any management unit and we need to look at harvest herd by herd. I know its a long trail DD but the stuff we have now is not correct from what I've seen over the many years with my own eyes..

[willy442]

The entry in the BC book shows it as "killed by Red Sorenson", not as picked up. You may want to contact them and get it corrected.

My point is just like Dad's. Who really gives a shit? We know where and how it came about. Now you do too. Have a good day.

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't se anything wrong with shooting a legal ram for meat, rather than trophy.

Is there something wrong with shooting a ram to eat it rather than mount it?

When it means one less ram for a guide to sell to a wealthy foreigner, it's a problem for some folks.

It is not, however, a conservation concern for a resident to shoot a legal ram for meat.

[Devilbear]

No, BUT, given the pressures on wild sheep in BC, I would only shoot an older ram, or, RMG billy or Caribou as every little bit of restraint in harvesting helps. I ALWAYS have and always will take and eat the meat of any animal I shoot, except the few Porcupines I had to kill in my L/O days. I WOULD eat a Cougar, but, not a wild Canid and that is the only other animal I would kill and leave the meat.

To manage sheep as Carl and Bridger and Willy suggest is, IMO, the most practical and realistic way to maintain huntable populations and the thoughtful promotion of "trophy-meat" hunting here in BC, will do more to keep hunting a socially acceptable activity than all the fancy bullshit promotions and babble about "economic benefits" EVER will.

Many of the most well-known and hardcore "environmentalists" in BC over the past half century have been colleagues and personal friends of mine. I have found that almost ALL of them, INCLUDING vegetariansby choice, will readily accept people killing game for meat and they seldom are concerned about what happens to the "trophy" as long as all meat is eaten.

I want to preserve hunting and the environment, I see these are mutually compatible and "civilizing" pursuits and goals and I think that emphasizing that sheep hunters DO only kill OLD rams past breeding age and then pack out and eat the meat, will go a long way to that end.

Like it or not, I doubt that there will be 100,000 hunters in BC by the time I am dead and you are finishing hunting, so, we NEED to do everything we can to present an acceptable image to the population at large and we need to "build bridges" with others concerned with environmental issues....or we are "done like dinner".

[willy442]

The entry in the BC book shows it as "killed by Red Sorenson", not as picked up. You may want to contact them and get it corrected.

Let me also add the Ram was entered into the book by the purchaser. Myself nor my father have any of our heads entered in record books. Actually a good number of hunters don't enter heads.

[willy442]

When it means one less ram for a guide to sell to a wealthy foreigner, it's a problem for some folks.

It is not, however, a conservation concern for a resident to shoot a legal ram for meat.

DRAWING ON ALL THAT KNOWLEDGE AGAIN! I see.

[Fisher-Dude]

Let me also add the Ram was entered into the book by the purchaser. Myself nor my father have any of our heads entered in record books. Actually a good number of hunters don't enter heads.

Interesting, it says "owned by Red Sorenson" too. :wink:

I have 3 book animals. None are entered. Gawd, Willy and I have something in common...the blue moon was on Dec 31st, right? :mrgreen:

[Devilbear]

The issue I referred to was ten years before and involved the "die off" of much of the RMBH sheep in the EK. It has happened again, since then, but, not to the same level of severity. This was the single most devastating single incident concerning wild sheep in BC that I can remember.

Yup, the GREAT Bob Williams, hell of a guy! He was acerbic, highly intelligent and a very successful independent businessman and he had the guts to take on Yankee-owned big businesses in BC and deal with their environmental destruction appropriately. He and Tony Brummit were "my kind" of politicians and we could sure use them now, given that little squirt of a Penner and the utterly vile Gordo.

It was Bob, who, when we fought the goddam loggers for "The Purcells" FINALLY listened to those of us whose families built the Kootenays and preserved it from the destruction the forest industry has done all around it. He also made sure that the GOs who wanted it for a hunting preserve did not get their greedy desires fufilled....I respect Bob.

There are LOTS of damm good biologists working now, the standards for being a RPBio. have improved enormously, due in no small measure to my old friend, mentor and professor, Dr. B.E.C. Fraser of the "Forest Practices Board" and, himself, as was Val, a student under my greatest hero, Dr. Ian McTaggart-Cowan. we are not lacking in bios., it's decent politicians and knowlegable hunters we need more of.

[Fisher-Dude]

I agree with you whole heartrendingly that the deer should be "managed" not annihilated. There were no foreign hunters on the ranch when I was there they were all B.C. residents. The small market that took place was for local residents. The area was devastated by the issuing of three tags per person

Was that it? Or was it predation? Or range depredation by what was obviously a deer herd at carrying capacity (hence the issuance of 3 tags)? Forest ingrowth? Bad winter(s)? Or maybe a combination of factors?

[willy442]

Interesting, it says "owned by Red Sorenson" too. :wink:

I have 3 book animals. None are entered. Gawd, Willy and I have something in common...the blue moon was on Dec 31st, right? :mrgreen:

Believe what you want. It really don't matter to me. My only question to you is. With your lack of intelligence and blatant disregard and conduct in regards to hunting, conservation and the real issues. You should have been banned or at least warned many times on your conduct. I cannot believe for an instance that anyone would follow you or your believes.


**Keep it clean, please.

[Devilbear]

Yup, much of the environmental trouble we now face has been caused by locals, no question. I can remember people catching and keeping 10-400 Kokanee per boat, under the Nelson Bridge for years and then, whammo, suddenly the Kokanee were damm near extirpated.

A decision by a very senior UBC biologist, to introduce "Mycis" to Kootenay Lake circa 1949, was seemingly a "good" idea, at that time. It was intended to provide more food FOR the Kokanee, greatly increase THEIR biomass and thus eventually "grow" more and larger "trophy" Gerrard Rainbows.

BUT, then came the accursed "Columbia River Treaty" dams, major limnological changes and the "Mycis" began PREYING on the Kokanee fry and so, another serious "limiting factor" evolved in that complex and highly productive aquatic ecosystem. NOW???, well, the Kokanee are VERY strictly regulated and the old food source for those who took ONLY what they would eat, is gone and probably forever.

Again, education, self discipline and systematic scientific study to produce appropriate management policies MAY keep some Kokanee fishing available.......is there a lesson here for resident hunters/anglers?

[bridger]

the issue of declining stone sheep populations in 7b really has nothing to do with hunting in my opinion. putting non residents on quota and reducing resident harvest protected the ram porportion of the populaiton, but what happened to all the big ewe and lamb groups we used to see. there has never been a ewe season of which I am aware. I do know that when the wolf popuation was controlled the overall sheep population rebounded and as they say it is a matter of public record you can look it up.

[frenchbar]

I will state on my mothers grave that it was not predation, over grazing or any other . There will always be predators, sickness and deliberate acts of law breaking. Empire valley had miles and miles of the finest bunch grass and winter feed. If the alleged over grazing was truly taking place at the Gang Ranch, all the deer had to do was walk one hundred yards across Churn Creek to Empire. The bunch grass was knee high on a horse . The Empire ranch was run by the Brysons who offset their ranching with a few hunters every Fall. The mountain known as Clyde Mt was out of bounds to even us.(the people who worked there) It was a sanctuary for the Big Bucks to rut in peace. My front tooth was knocked out by resident hunters who cut fences to obtain access to Clyde Mtn. They were caught with 8 bucks on private property, the main wire fence line was posted every 50yards. They cut and jimmy'd up the wire to make it look like it was still standing. Baldy Boydd was called in and he flew to try and locate them. Their camp was totally surrounded by bush with eight huge bucks hanging on the poles. That incedent was scarey when you only weighed 90 lbs.My dad who knew the Brysons quite well ,told me they even had to get the game dept to stay up at the ranch to keep the peace so to speak as people were destroying gates and fences ect..

[6616]

The major SHEEP problem I recall, was in the East Kootenays, back when I was just graduating from high school and considering a career in either the Fish&Wildlife or the Forest Service....what can I say, I was young, idealistic and loved the bush, but I learned, yes, indeedy, I certainly learned. This was the "pneumonia" so-called, that ravaged the RM Bighorns and there were those who attributed this epidemic to the practices of the local ranchers who ran cattle on the "winter range" of the RMBH and thus it would not support the sheep, who were thus weakened and succumbed to the infection.

Well looking back and learning from the history of the bighorn die-offs in the East Kootenay, the range was heavily used in the early 60's, nearly twice as many AUMs allocated to cattle as there is today, and again in the early '80's there was a very high elk population. I know that in the early 80's die-off competition from elk on several winter ranges weakened the sheep herd considerably.

However, the suspected cause of the late 50's/early 60's die-off as well as the fully determined cause of the early '80's die-off, as well as the '90's Okanagan die-off and several other sheep die-offs in the Pacific-Northwest has been clearly documented to have been caused by contact with domestic sheep.

It wouldn't really matter if the range was in good shape or if the herd was weakened or not, although that would add to the overall mortality, when wild sheep come into direct contact with domestic sheep they are essentially doomed.

The offending bacterial organism is Pasturella-haemolytica which effectivelly reduces the respitory condition of wild sheep to a point where they die from pneumonia. Domestic sheep are carriers but are uneffected by the disease. If we are worried about the southern bighorn populations we should be aware that this is without any doubt the single biggest risk to their future in BC.

In the early 60's we lost half the herd, in the early 80's we lost nearly 80% of the herd. In both cases the population was unable to recover to it's former level, but that was due to habitat conditions, carrying capacity, competition from cattle/elk, with habitat loss due to forest ingrowth being the most significant factor.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I agree with you and I have a question? Why is it that a Large sheep farmer is allowed to operate with impunity just a couple of miles up river from Spences Bridge. Right smack in the middle of all the Rocky Mountain Herd?
I can't quite figure that out.
Cheers

IIRC-The person who owns those sheep was asked to remove them but told MOE to take a hike. I believe that they did finally agree and put up a double fence to reduce the chance of nose-to-nose contact with wild sheep. I may be wrong but I think it's on FN land.

SSS

[bridger]

IIRC-The person who owns those sheep was asked to remove them but told MOE to take a hike. I believe that they did finally agree and put up a double fence to reduce the chance of nose-to-nose contact with wild sheep. I may be wrong but I think it's on FN land.

SSS


Like toby keith says " you gotta saddle up boys, you gotta take a hard line." maybe it is time we did put some public pressure on the issue.

[yama49]

Like toby keith says " you gotta saddle up boys, you gotta take a had line." maybe it is time we did put some public pressure on the issue.


X 2 ON THAT!!!!!

[bighornbob]

I agree with you and I have a question? Why is it that a Large sheep farmer is allowed to operate with impunity just a couple of miles up river from Spences Bridge. Right smack in the middle of all the Rocky Mountain Herd?
I can't quite figure that out.
Cheers


It was on native land and we all know how that goes.

BHB

[bighornbob]

It would be interesting to find out if there was anything written up with the Local Native Res and MOE when they were first introduced, to ensure their (MOE goals are taken into consideration?)Or were they just dumped out?

I heard that the sheep were supposed to go somwhere else and the train broke down or something and they just opened the doors and released them as it had mountains and they were mountain sheep.:rolleyes: Dont think transplants in the early 1900's were too prevelent or thought out.


BHB

[6616]

I agree with you and I have a question? Why is it that a Large sheep farmer is allowed to operate with impunity just a couple of miles up river from Spences Bridge. Right smack in the middle of all the Rocky Mountain Herd?
I can't quite figure that out.
Cheers

Because our laws suck in this regard. In Oregan (like you say) it would be illegal.

[bighornbob]

When i get home, i will be checking out this ''Double fence''? The last time I was up there, there were about 250 head of sheep. While it is true when i was there, they were only in irrigated fields and not running on open range, It is one hell of a fine edge we are walking with the stats that have been previously submitted on this issue.
Cheers

The sheep have never been on open range. They have always been around the barn. Not sure of the fence. I dont think I even saw them this year.

BHB

[papaken]

Well that was a damned interesting read. Just read all 34 pages and learned quite a bit. Nice to see everyone seems a little more civil towards the last few pages. Maybe if we all continue to talk we can come to a consensus. It would be nice to see a united front in 2010. "And for some reason I have an urge to try sheep hunting".
FN, Residents, GO, Non-resident, Bow, Gun, etc. etc. We are all Hunters. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

[6616]

You might find this info very interesting for your files.

http://www.mwvcrc.org/bighorn/payettebighornreport.pdf

There is a ton of research out there that proves this threat conclusively.
The initial research was done by Dr. Bill Foreyt at Washington state U. There have been dozens of high level symposiums ansd meeting on this topic. Bill Foryet also made a presentation on this at the WSSOBC convention several years ago.


http://www.agri.state.id.us/Categories/PlantsInsects/02-04-08sheep.pdf (http://www.agri.state.id.us/Categories/PlantsInsects/02-04-08sheep.pdf)

http://www.mwvcrc.org/bighorn/LiteratureReview1.pdf (http://www.mwvcrc.org/bighorn/LiteratureReview1.pdf)

http://www.napga.org/links.asp?PageID=3&LinkID=229&menuID (http://www.napga.org/links.asp?PageID=3&LinkID=229&menuID)=

http://www.fs.fed.us/qoi/documents/2009/CWGA-zpfile000.pdf (http://www.fs.fed.us/qoi/documents/2009/CWGA-zpfile000.pdf)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

A few years ago the WSSBC proposed a new law making it illegal to keep domestic sheep within 15kms of known wild sheep habitat. I believe it was riddled with complications from the start and went no where.

At last yrs' WSSBC a director of FNAWS gave a presentation and I was quite surprized to learn that in some areas south of the border they still have sheep grazing leases on wild sheep habitat...much worse than ours:icon_frow. The ranching community is very, very powerful down there. Obviously, they could take a lesson from Oregon.
I thought they would have learned from history.:?

SSS

[bridger]

the same old story the domestic sheep lobby is more powerful than the wild sheep lobby. at the turn of the century Steens Mtn in oregon had an estimated 3500 california big horns ranging its slopes until 10,000 domestic sheep were turned loose. Between the herders shooting them and lung disease they disappeard completely until domestic sheep were removed and a transplant from the junction re established a population in the 60's but still not a lot of them.

[BCrams]

This thread sure got sidetracked.

[dutchie]

This thread sure got sidetracked.

that is what happeneds when the "Sheep Sheriff" comes to town!

Dutchie

[Fisher-Dude]

OK: Mr Bean Counter. I have killed 1 ram for myself after hunting them for many years. The Ram I choose to take for myself is 43.5 inches long and makes the Boone and Crockett, although I see no need to enter it into thier records. You Mr CLUELESS are again making assumptions about something you know nothing about.

Interesting quote from srupp's sheep thread in August 2009:

08-14-2009, 02:33 PM
willy442 (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/member.php?u=1262) http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Sheep Sheriff
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fort St John (when not working)
Posts: 822


Re: Srupp Gets His Stone Sheep !!!!!!!
Srupp; Don't get me wrong, I congradulate you on finally taking a Ram. However I for one have taken many and have first hand knowledge of the hardships it requires to be successful many times over. I have travelled the Muskawa, Kechieka and Gattho many times and have survived. The story was great and the fact your captain was able to run the river without incident is also, but its nothing special. What is special to a sheep hunter is the actual set of horns that you took. If you are unable to post them fine, I do remember though that some else in the early stages of this thread volunteered to help and you declined it. Hence the reason for my comment on being deprived as a child. Do I need to see your photo? (no) I have many of my own and never have I complained or called out my hunting partners as you did last year, that many seem to have forgot. Have a nice day. I'll look at your ram one day when you post it maybe, but I won't buy into the Srupp BS.:razz:
__________________
"For those who understand no explanation is neccessary and for those who don't none is possible"


http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=496008#post496008

*********************************

Yeah. Right. Change your story to suit your bullshit Willy.

[Will]

:redface:............

[Gateholio]

It is time, gentlemen....


http://www.cochisemuzzleloaders.com/images/50%20cal%20dueling%20pistols%20cased%20view.JPG

[bigwhiteys]

Re: Srupp Gets His Stone Sheep !!!!!!!
Srupp; Don't get me wrong, I congradulate you on finally taking a Ram. However I for one have taken many and have first hand knowledge of the hardships it requires to be successful many times over. I have travelled the Muskawa, Kechieka and Gattho many times and have survived. The story was great and the fact your captain was able to run the river without incident is also, but its nothing special. What is special to a sheep hunter is the actual set of horns that you took. If you are unable to post them fine, I do remember though that some else in the early stages of this thread volunteered to help and you declined it. Hence the reason for my comment on being deprived as a child. Do I need to see your photo? (no) I have many of my own and never have I complained or called out my hunting partners as you did last year, that many seem to have forgot. Have a nice day. I'll look at your ram one day when you post it maybe, but I won't buy into the Srupp BS.:razz:
__________________
"For those who understand no explanation is neccessary and for those who don't none is possible"


Why do you have to be such a tool? Seriously man... Have you nothing better to do? If your the type who is going to "save" our future hunting we are DOOMED.

If you READ what Willy wrote.

#1. "I for one have taken many..." He is referring to guided clients. To which yes... He has guided for many Rams.

#2. "Do I need to see your photo? (no) I have many of my own" Here he is referring to PHOTOS of his own.

That's the 2nd or 3rd time you've had to eat crow in this thread...?

You are Willy's #1 Stalker.

Carl

[Dirty]

I think this about sums it up. http://www.spooncraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/beat_dead_horse2.jpg

[Fisher-Dude]

Why do you have to be such a tool? Seriously man... Have you nothing better to do? If your the type who is going to "save" our future hunting we are DOOMED.

If you READ what Willy wrote.

#1. "I for one have taken many..." He is referring to guided clients. To which yes... He has guided for many Rams.

#2. "Do I need to see your photo? (no) I have many of my own" Here he is referring to PHOTOS of his own.

That's the 2nd or 3rd time you've had to eat crow in this thread...?

You are Willy's #1 Stalker.

Carl

Your defensive response was predicted in several PMs to me. Laughable on your part. Willy got caught blowing his own horn while trying to denegrate Steven's efforts to get a sheep. Or, according to Willy, several of his horns from many of the sheep he killed.

**************************************

BIGHUNTERFISH: Could you please post up some field pictures of your many rams ?I would be really intrested in seeing them.

willy442: Look back through the sheep threads, there are many posted.

[bigwhiteys]

You are too much... My Grandpa was a sheep outfitter... Willy guided for 32 years. Is it so much to believe he only shot 1 ram for himself? But guided for well over 100? If he's got more than 1 stone ram he's holding out on me...! Heck his brother, who guided for just as many sheep never even shot his own ram! EVER.

Seriously not worth arguing over... You are a dickhead Fisher-Dude.

Carl

[Elkhound]

When the name calling starts the thread is over