Too many bison?? Absolutely.

[Bear Chaser]

As was mentioned by Bridger on another thread perhaps serious discussion on the population level of bison in the Halfway & Sikanni river valleys is in order. In my opinion the debates surrounding the actions & comments of a certain individual detract from time that would be better spent examining the issues Bridger mentioned most notably habitat destruction & competition for forage with sheep, elk, moose, & caribou.
In 2006 I was priviledged to be invited on a horseback hunt into the Halfway river valley. Over the ten day hunt (Oct 7-17) I was astounded to see upwards of one thousand bison. 2006 was an extremely dry year in the Peace so perhaps that lead to increased levels of bison congregating in the Halfway valley as there was very little water in the creeks & side canyons. Camped in the main valley we had bison IN camp every night. It's a bit troubling getting up in the night to take a leak and have bison scatter in the dark as you leave the tent. During the course of our hunt wherever we saw more than two or three bison in a group we saw no elk. There were also very few moose & only one caribou during the entire hunt.
This fall I was again invited for a Sept elk hunt. With better forage the bison were spread out a little more, but we still saw considerably more bison than anything else. On both hunts we saw plenty of bison damage to the grasslands & hillsides. Bridger is correct when he talks about seeing moonscapes. There are wallows and excavations everywhere there is soil whether it is on the valley floor or at the top of a mountain.
There are more than enough bison to dramatically increase the amount of tags available.

[bridger]

the entire issue involving the bison herd in the halfway and sikanni river valleys has been contenious from the get go. the rancher who was also the outfitter at pink mtn brought 37 head of bison into the area in the early 70's and turned them loose. His idea was to offer free ranging bison hunts to non residents. As he couldn't keep them on his private land the government after a long legal battle confiscated them and deemed them wildlife. eventually an leh season was opened with a few permits. With virtually no controls on the population the bison have increased to the point that they are becoming an environmental issue. Up until the late 90's the upper halfway was a fantastic place to hunt moose. I have personally seen as many as twenty bulls in one day. the bison have increased to the point that habitat destruction is a serious problem. The moose population has dramatically dropped as a result. the sheep and elk populations in these two valleys have also been affected. when you see herds of up to 100 bison summering on winter sheep ranges the results are predictable. In reality the leh season and quota's on the outfitters should be removed and a general open season should be implemented to reduce the bison herd. One concern having a general open season raises is the possible increase in moose and elk harvest in the halway and sikanni valleys that may result. that could be avoided by thinking outside the box and opening the bison season say July 15 to august 14 before the other seasons open. i would also extend the designated quad trails further up both valleys for that same period. if this were the case for say a two year trial period it would perhaps bring the bison population down to a manageable level and provide lots of meat and hunting opportunities. one thing is for sure the present leh system is not accomplishing this task. it may seem strange to those who are not familiar with the whole history of the bison in 7b that there could be to many bison, but I guess we have to decide if we want a lot of bison and fewer, moose, elk, and sheep in those areas.

[Steeleco]

Back in 2000/01 I got to fly into Trimble lake. There were Bison all over the hills on both trips in both directions. Our Pilot (wife's uncle) used to guide in that area and said exactly what you've just said. I can only imagine the population increase even in 10 years. Never understood why they make them so hard to get in such inclement weather, if all they're trying to achieve is "Population control" let the lucky SOB's do it in Sept!!

[hunter1947]

In the 70ties in around Trimble lake there where no bison and now look at it ,like you said steeleco how many will there be in 10 years from now and why not have the LEH season for bison at an earler date ????.

[bridger]

In the 70ties in around Trimble lake there where no bison and now look at it ,like you said steeleco how many will there be in 10 years from now and why not have the LEH season for bison at an earler date ????.

the dates for the leh season were set in the current time frame because of the very nature of bison hunting. Most tag holders invite several friends to help or accompany them on the hunt. The MOE is concerned that if the hunt is earlier when moose and elk seasons are open the increased number of hunters will result in an increase in the harvest of those other species. The real answer I believe as i said earlier is to hold a GOS before the moose and elk seasons open. Given the present circumstances regarding the bison season I can see no reason to maintain an leh season.

[hunter1947]

the dates for the leh season were set in the current time frame because of the very nature of bison hunting. Most tag holders invite several friends to help or accompany them on the hunt. The MOE is concerned that if the hunt is earlier when moose and elk seasons are open the increased number of hunters will result in an increase in the harvest of those other species. The real answer I believe as i said earlier is to hold a GOS before the moose and elk seasons open. Given the present circumstances regarding the bison season I can see no reason to maintain an leh season.


Thanks bridger for that feed back ,that makes sence to me http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[Steeleco]

Wouldn't the heat be a factor at that time of year? Maybe spring??
But the explanation makes sense. Thanks Bridger.

[Devilbear]

What I would prefer to see is an increase in available CO patrols in this area, by helicopter, ( all of BC as well), to an extent where they could realistically monitor the current seasons and then have a GOS for the Bison.

I would not favour more "quota" for the GOs, UNLESS ALL residents who wanted to hunt and kill Bison were satisfied, ( I don't btw). The Gos already have "quota" levels FAR above what other jurisdictions permit and we need to LOWER GO "quotas" and even ban some types of "non-res" hunting here in BC.

The extension of the quad trails is a GOOD idea and should be done. These, if monitored well, can also serve horse, mule, dog and goat packers and even backpackers. A system of such trails in northern BC would be a great inducement to more such "non-motorized" uses of our wilderness by we ordinary schmucks and it could be financed by eliminating the "BC Human Rights" bureaucracy and using the tax monies now wasted on it for such practical purposes.

[Fraink]

Harvesting a bison in warmer weather could present a considerable challenge as they are extremely hard to cool! Leaving the time frames in place but opening it for everyone might be an answer, snow machines are definatly the way to go and if you are dressed for the weather the cold is a non issue. If you take a look at all the people that apply for the LEH, clearly an open season would get alot of hunters out there. The traffic would be increased and bring another set of problems. Maybe open a season in Jan and see what kind of hard cores turn out.

[tomahawk]

Harvesting a bison in warmer weather could present a considerable challenge as they are extremely hard to cool! Leaving the time frames in place but opening it for everyone might be an answer, snow machines are definatly the way to go and if you are dressed for the weather the cold is a non issue. If you take a look at all the people that apply for the LEH, clearly an open season would get alot of hunters out there. The traffic would be increased and bring another set of problems. Maybe open a season in Jan and see what kind of hard cores turn out.

Yikes, an open season for bison would be a zoo at best. However a revision of the current system is required for sure. My first draw in "B" 1998 was enjoyable, "bull only" at that time and there were bison to be seen daily and very few hunters. It was a matter of time before the right animal came into range. In 2002 and 2005 it was more crowded with hunters and fewer animals to be found, but some harvesting took place. This year there were hunters everywhere, quads out of there area was normal, guys could care less where they went as no one was seeing animals except in 2 small pockets and they were all cows, calves and immature bulls. Most hunters left empty handed (unlike A where the herds had headed into). It took time to find where the mature bulls were but they were in there usual places.
Opening the season to everyone would not be pretty!!

[Fraink]

I hear you tomahawk! The traffic in such a confined area can be a problem. If we tried it in january might not be too crowded.

[tomahawk]

I hear you tomahawk! The traffic in such a confined area can be a problem. If we tried it in january might not be too crowded.

Fraink that would make it better for sure, one fella I ran into that was staying at the Sikanni River Ranch said they were talking about a Jan-Feb draw or draws for next yr but can't tell you if that was from a reliable source or not.

[835]

open season late.
after the elk/moose maby? As a tester, only the tough would go and a few crazy. That in itself might make sure it isnt a slaughter house up there.
i hunted mulies on a mtn that was 4pt plus all year, we shot 2 or 3 deer every year we were there. When they opened it to any buck for october the whole mtn was full of people and it was like viet nam.
they shot the whole mountain. I took a regressed three pt that year so yes i took part as well.

[CanuckShooter]

Why not do some transplanting??? Put a small herd into the Cariboo, one out by Burns Lake....Kamloops area maybe??

Killing them off isn't the only way to deal with what some would consider an overpopulation. When they opened up those February elk/deer seasons in 7B they could have trucked a few thousand of them south to enhance populations that aren't quite so prolific....

[Fraink]

One of the problems now is the majority of the LEH winners all show up at the same time, some show up later to let the traffic die down. If they had an open season for bison for the intire months of Jan. and Feb. it might reduce the traffic at any given time and generate revenue to those good people in the pink mountain and sikanni chief areas at an otherwise slow time.

[Fraink]

Why not do some transplanting??? Put a small herd into the Cariboo, one out by Burns Lake....Kamloops area maybe??

Killing them off isn't the only way to deal with what some would consider an overpopulation. When they opened up those February elk/deer seasons in 7B they could have trucked a few thousand of them south to enhance populations that aren't quite so prolific....

MOE would have a hard time coming up with the budget to transplant>

[bridger]

i disagree that there is no room for an open season. the leh hunt in a zoo and the reason it has turned into that is the MOE has issued more tags in an effort to increase harvest. hunting them when the weather is good will allow hunters to spread out more from the mail trails, either on foot or by horse back. extending the quad trails will again spread the pressure and camps. can't see a open bison season anymore of a problem than an open moose or elk season. cooling meat is not an issue in my book either. get the hide off quickly, bag it and hang it the shade take it out on a quad the next day just like a moose. we need more open seasons and less leh in my book. the idea is to reduce the population and you can't do that with an leh only season in the winter.

[Dirty]

i disagree that there is no room for an open season. the leh hunt in a zoo and the reason it has turned into that is the MOE has issued more tags in an effort to increase harvest. hunting them when the weather is good will allow hunters to spread out more from the mail trails, either on foot or by horse back. extending the quad trails will again spread the pressure and camps. can't see a open bison season anymore of a problem than an open moose or elk season. cooling meat is not an issue in my book either. get the hide off quickly, bag it and hang it the shade take it out on a quad the next day just like a moose. we need more open seasons and less leh in my book. the idea is to reduce the population and you can't do that with an leh only season in the winter.


What about spreading the LEH season to Summer, Winter, and Spring LEHs? Use the time when there aren't active ungulate seasons to harvest more buffalo. Hell what about 3 different open seasons in Summer(July 1 - August 14), Winter, and Spring when there aren't other ungulate seasons.

[bridger]

transplanting bison to other parts of the province would be a great mistake given the environmental damage they do and the effect they have on other species. my point is this thread is that we need to reduce the bison population signigicantly and an open season is what it will take. if the bison continue to increase the sheep and elk and moose populations in the nevis creek and besa drainages will suffer dramatically and we will lose more sheep winter ranges. the bison traditionally did not enter the nevis creek valley (the next one north of the sikanni) they stayed in the halfway and sikanni drainages. now with the increase in population they are expanding their ranges in nevis and besa drainages. these are major sheep winter ranges we cannot afford to have bison using for summer pasture.

[Fraink]

well said bridger!

[CanuckShooter]

transplanting bison to other parts of the province would be a great mistake given the environmental damage they do and the effect they have on other species. my point is this thread is that we need to reduce the bison population signigicantly and an open season is what it will take. if the bison continue to increase the sheep and elk and moose populations in the nevis creek and besa drainages will suffer dramatically and we will lose more sheep winter ranges. the bison traditionally did not enter the nevis creek valley (the next one north of the sikanni) they stayed in the halfway and sikanni drainages. now with the increase in population they are expanding their ranges in nevis and besa drainages. these are major sheep winter ranges we cannot afford to have bison using for summer pasture.

"environmental damage they do".....

Unless I am mistaken bison inhabited most of north america for thousands of years before they were almost hunted to extinction. You'd think with all of the environmental damage they would have done in that time that we would be living in a virtual wasteland by now...

Sometimes I cannot help but think the "environmental damage" charge is overused as a method to reach other ends. Restrict atv access, keep people out, raise taxes....etc

Bison are a part of nature in north america and I am sure that our environment will adapt to them staying with us in numbers far more than are out there now...without us having to manage them. IMO

[PGK]

CS, bison are bad. Transplanting them is worse. As far as I know, plains bison have never been native to BC. Formerly, we had wood bison in the north parts of the province, the plains bison currently in pink mountain should never have been classed as 'wildlife' in the first place. They are an invasive species. I support a full GOS on these critters, be damned with hunter congestion or getting the meat out without spoilage. We have got to kill the damn things off.

[Mik]

I'm all for GOS on Bison. As for the moose and elk being shot out at the same time - well its fair game. If you come across one and you have a tag, boom its yours. Its like every other animal out there. Good luck hunting them.

What you need to realize is that not every body goes that far north to hunt. Theres always people complaining with the price of gas,then there hunting partners copping out at the last minute and not all hunts go as planned. Its hard enough to find a Bison with all that snow, try finding one when its warm and they are spread out over a greater area. Its not as easy as one thinks it may be.

I Agree that in the first year there will probably be more hunters, but thats only cause everyone has been trying for so long at LEH to get one!then i believe that will change quickly the next year.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

What about spreading the LEH season to Summer, Winter, and Spring LEHs? Use the time when there aren't active ungulate seasons to harvest more buffalo. Hell what about 3 different open seasons in Summer(July 1 - August 14), Winter, and Spring when there aren't other ungulate seasons.

GOS...no closed season...bag limit=one:). That way no one has to say they're hunting wolves:wink:.

SSS

[PGK]

GOS...no closed season...bag limit=one:). That way no one has to say they're hunting wolves:wink:.

SSS

That's the way to do it, I've been thinking. "No closed season" regs will turn the bison into the incidental harvest, instead of groups of guys going up for bison and pounding elk and moose as incidentals. It would spread out hunter pressure too, as people could go whenever they wanted. What I wonder is how the bison will react to a whole bunch of increased hunting pressure. Don't want to push them further back into the nevis and besa :neutral:

[44inchStone]

Boy just think who would be racking up the tresspassing fee dollars if there were a GOS? OR they may raise the fee to 200 or 300 dollars per hunter. It will be a certain way to may some BIG money. You could see where this could go. Pretty scary on what the outcome of this could be. It REALLY needs a good look at the whole picture. I too have had the opportunity to take a great animal but it looked like the other critters are taking a kicking.
Seeing Bison in sheep country is just a big dissapointment. Never mind the Bison were in every valley and drainage. Seemed like all they did was eat everything in their way and crap everywhere.

[bridger]

"environmental damage they do".....

Unless I am mistaken bison inhabited most of north america for thousands of years before they were almost hunted to extinction. You'd think with all of the environmental damage they would have done in that time that we would be living in a virtual wasteland by now...

Sometimes I cannot help but think the "environmental damage" charge is overused as a method to reach other ends. Restrict atv access, keep people out, raise taxes....etc

Bison are a part of nature in north america and I am sure that our environment will adapt to them staying with us in numbers far more than are out there now...without us having to manage them. IMO

bull shit. ride a saddle horse through the upper halfway valley in september. there is no grass for wintering sheep or elk herds on most of the mountains. the lower meadows look like a bombing range with all the wallows. the trees around the meadows are dead stripped of their bark by bison rubbing on them. you didn't see the halfway valley 20 years ago and i doubt if you have seen it now. the habitat change and degradation is unbelievable. 25 years ago the outfitter was harvesting 120 moose a year in that valley today i doubt that there is 120 in total. they simply can't compete with the bison.

[kebes]

What will it take to see that kind of a change happen (gos)?

[Bear Chaser]

Boy just think who would be racking up the tresspassing fee dollars if there were a GOS?


As I have posted before anyone who doesn't want to pay the trespass fee can just go around on the designated trail. If there was enough demand the boggy part of the trail and the creek crossings could be improved providing easy access for even the most inexperienced ATV rider.

As far as finding bison when it's warm out it's pretty simple. Cows, calves and small bulls will be all over in the lower elevations. Big SOB bulls will be at the top of ridges in batchelor groups digging wallows in the alpine tundra.

[Bear Chaser]

transplanting bison to other parts of the province would be a great mistake given the environmental damage they do and the effect they have on other species. my point is this thread is that we need to reduce the bison population signigicantly and an open season is what it will take. if the bison continue to increase the sheep and elk and moose populations in the nevis creek and besa drainages will suffer dramatically and we will lose more sheep winter ranges. the bison traditionally did not enter the nevis creek valley (the next one north of the sikanni) they stayed in the halfway and sikanni drainages. now with the increase in population they are expanding their ranges in nevis and besa drainages. these are major sheep winter ranges we cannot afford to have bison using for summer pasture.

They are also spreading south of the Halfway as we ran across many animals & a lot of sign at the far end of the Genesis road. Once they find the logged off areas with new growth of grass and small shrubbery they will be making a permanent expansion into there as well. It's not sheep habitat but it was moose and ellk country.

[sheep.elk.moose fanatic]

don't think we will see a GO season any time soon the government is not going to give that money up just yet!! we will see more leh draws and a longer season and more money for the government!!

we need to get the success rate higher on the bison hunt!!! and by not putting 85 tags out at a time flooding the bush with hunters and making it hard for hunters like shockey!! lol

we need more tags over a longer period of time with smaller openings so there is less pressure so guys like shockey go home with their bison!

i believe we will start to see the bison herd move just not north but too the south as well into the chowade!! WE NEED TO REDUCE THE HERD IN HALF OR EVEN MORE!!!

[Backcountry archer]

I was invited to go along with my buddy for his first ever draw. He harvested a nice dry cow with the bow. The recovery was a simple drag of quarters down the snowy mountainside to where snow machines could reach.
The temp ranged from - 35 to -11 in three days.
Does anyone know the actual year of when the first L.E.H.'s for bison came available, including the "shut down" time frame and return of the draws?
Thanks

[Fraink]

I believe that the first draw was in 92, then a three year rest and they put out the draw in 96 and it's been LEH bison since then.

[One Shot]

It is my understanding from F&W officials and locals many years ago that the Bison's natural range prior to their desimation by our forefathers included the Peace, Halfway and Sikinni regions. Those living today do not know what their impact was in these areas and how it effected other wildlife in the day. All we have is oral and written history of which is limited. They are herd animals and as such have a greater impact on the land than that of other wildlife. Bison are an indigenous species of the region, they are not a transplanted animal but a reintroduced species to the region.

I too, like some others know the region past and present including the ranchers that introduced the Bison back to the area. Man created an unbalanced environment when we almost wiped out the Bison population(including Elk) from NA. As a result other species flourished over time and now with the reintroduction of the Bison these flourishing species are now being called "populations at risk" by sportsman bcause of the increased competition for forage. With the advancing growth of agriculture man has pushed wildlife off of their natural range and concentrated them into smaller areas also resulting in higher comeptition for forage. Bring back a species that has vacated the region for many decades and it will unbalance the already unbalanced situation inititially created by their absence in the first place.

I do not have a concrete answer on how to correct the situation. Go in any one direction to do so will will effect one species group or another which in turn will effect the sportsman of those species who will in turn be vocal and opposed to any correction in that direction.

In my opinion I do believe that there needs to be more LEH tags available for the region. I do agree with the comments if this were to be done it should be outside of other species openings as each drawn tag may bring 2-5 people to help with the hunt and that may have an inpact on other species in the region by these additional persons that would not normally come up to hunt the region if they decided to hunt if other species were open during Bison LEH. I also agree the region should be open to hunt with atvs for the purpose of Bison hunting due to their size.

Nuff said.

[Fraink]

Well said One shot!! While doing the research in preparation for our hunt we ran into an article on the internet written by a biologist regarding the woods bison to the north. The woods bison have a number of diseases and are apparently at risk for a number of reasons. This paper suggested that the entire Pink Mountain Bison herd should be replaced by woods bison to insure the plains bison do not encroach on the woods bison habitat and possibly push them out or interbreed and compromise the genetics of the other herd.

The Pink Mountain Plains Bison Herd is the largest disease free Plains bison herd in North America and seem to be doing well in this location, replacing them as the article suggested seems to be an expensive and extremely risky undertaking. I can't imagine how you could be sure to remove an entire population from and area and if not successfull you risk the genetic mixing you origanally feared.

I'm certainly not a biologist nor do I pretend to understand all the issues at stake but if the bison are moving out of the Halfway and Sikanni drainages and need to be managed, more tags (Jan. and Feb draws) might be an answer. But it could also be the hunting pressure not habitat issues that are causing them to move into Nevis Cr. and the other areas.

[riflebuilder]

I would like to see a GOS late in jan -Feb with LEH during the summer and fall.

[Fraink]

I like the timeframe of your GOS but the LEH during other species GOS would be a cluster#$%^ for all involved, just my opinion.

[ratherbefishin]

I am unfamiliar with the bison hunt[although I'd like to be]but is it not true that a GOS works best when spread over a wide area,eliminating a concentration of hunting pressure?
If there are scientific reasons to increase the harvest-would not simply increasing the number of LEH opportunities accomplish the objective?Given the participation in the draw,I'd say there was enough interest there to do it

[CanuckShooter]

bull shit. ride a saddle horse through the upper halfway valley in september. there is no grass for wintering sheep or elk herds on most of the mountains. the lower meadows look like a bombing range with all the wallows. the trees around the meadows are dead stripped of their bark by bison rubbing on them. you didn't see the halfway valley 20 years ago and i doubt if you have seen it now. the habitat change and degradation is unbelievable. 25 years ago the outfitter was harvesting 120 moose a year in that valley today i doubt that there is 120 in total. they simply can't compete with the bison.

I've hunted the Halfway valley many times, granted I haven't been up there in about 10 years. I wonder what it was like 200 years ago before the bison were slaughtered...kill off one, make room for another...what makes one species more valuable than the other?? As for the outfitter...who gives a shat?? He shouldn't have been taking 120 moose a year anyway...it's no damn wonder your moose populations are plummeting...place the blame where it belongs boyo on the greedy outfitter not natures own wildlife doing what they are meant to do.:mrgreen:

[Seeadler]

CS, bison are bad. Transplanting them is worse. As far as I know, plains bison have never been native to BC. Formerly, we had wood bison in the north parts of the province, the plains bison currently in pink mountain should never have been classed as 'wildlife' in the first place. They are an invasive species. I support a full GOS on these critters, be damned with hunter congestion or getting the meat out without spoilage. We have got to kill the damn things off.

Pretty sure there is evidence of plains bison in the Southern Rockies.

[The Hermit]

I've hunted the Halfway valley many times, granted I haven't been up there in about 10 years. I wonder what it was like 200 years ago before the bison were slaughtered...kill off one, make room for another...what makes one species more valuable than the other?? As for the outfitter...who gives a shat?? He shouldn't have been taking 120 moose a year anyway...it's no damn wonder your moose populations are plummeting...place the blame where it belongs boyo on the greedy outfitter not natures own wildlife doing what they are meant to do.:mrgreen:

CS - You are sounding like an anti here! Let me get this straight... you don't think that hunting is a valid wildlife management tool? You disagree that bison are causing damage to the wintering ranges for sheep and elk? Are you a guide?

[Bowtime]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but LEH is only suppose to be used on animals in areas where the numbers are low and fragile. If the bison are over populated it should go straight to GOS for bison after the moose season is over. The government should not take the money generated into consideration when it comes down to reducing the herd. This is poor management. espesially if it's on animals that are not native to the area and is depleting habitat for moose, Elk, Caribou, and sheep. Please correct me if im wrong. I will not take offense

[Fraink]

Bison are different than moose,elk etc. because of the limited areas they are available. Moose, Elk etc. hunters can go just about anywhere in the province to do their thing, but if we had a GOS on Bison, all Bison hunters would be in the same area. That being said, if they tried something for Jan. or Feb. the extreme conditions might keep the number of hunters down. Another tool of management could be the shared hunt, if we want less hunters at any given time but more Bison harvested, then we could have only shared hunts available. Every member of the group gets to harvest a Bison, that way we havent increased the hunter numbers only the number of animals taken.........Your thoughts??

[Buck]

Great idea Fraink.On a normal Bison hunt there will be 2 or 3 per party so it would help take more animals without increasing the number of hunters and it would be much easier to talk your friends into going.General open season would be scarey unless they have it at a differant time than the other ungulates.

[7mag700]

Bison are different than moose,elk etc. because of the limited areas they are available. Moose, Elk etc. hunters can go just about anywhere in the province to do their thing, but if we had a GOS on Bison, all Bison hunters would be in the same area. That being said, if they tried something for Jan. or Feb. the extreme conditions might keep the number of hunters down. Another tool of management could be the shared hunt, if we want less hunters at any given time but more Bison harvested, then we could have only shared hunts available. Every member of the group gets to harvest a Bison, that way we havent increased the hunter numbers only the number of animals taken.........Your thoughts??

You beat me to it! Shared/group LEH hunts would make a TON of sense. You almost have to have at least one person to help on a bison hunt anyway, so if people applied in pairs for two tag draws it would double the take without significantly increasing the number of people in that small area.

7m7

[CanuckShooter]

CS - You are sounding like an anti here! Let me get this straight... you don't think that hunting is a valid wildlife management tool? You disagree that bison are causing damage to the wintering ranges for sheep and elk? Are you a guide?


ANTI!!!! THEMS FIGHTIN' WORDS....:mrgreen: Hunting is a valid management tool, but I don't buy into the environmental damage argument...it reeks. IF there are healthy herds of bison, there should be more LEHs available, or extended seasons, or a general open season...but I cannot support the notion that the seasons [annual allowable harvest] should be expanded because they are damaging the environment....they were around for thousands of years and we still have sheep and elk....

There are a lot of wintering ranges for sheep and elk, all across this province, apparently the buff are only in this small concentrated area. Are the sheep and elk so much more valuable than the bison?? Do you think we should shoot them off so we can have more sheep and elk?? If there is an excess of bison in the area why not think a bit bigger picture and move some to another areas of the province and increase the herd size, more buff=more hunting opportunity?? The natural order of things would have the herds expanding outside of the areas they already occupy...moving to where there is a better food suppy...and eventually bringing things into balance.

Am I a guide?? Hell no. But I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that the guides would just love to get a bigger allocation eh? And what pulls at the heart strings of the anti crowd more than hollering environmental damage?

[BCrams]

but I cannot support the notion that the seasons [annual allowable harvest] should be expanded because they are damaging the environment


hollering environmental damage?

You're one of the folks I would recommend looking into and educating yourself a bit more regarding the damage the Pink Mtn bison herd does and the impact to Stone's sheep winter range and moose habitat before you spout off like you just did. :wink:

[whitetailsheds]

"
Bison are a part of nature in north america and I am sure that our environment will adapt to them staying with us in numbers far more than are out there now...without us having to manage them. IMO

Ya they are part of nature, and yes our environment will adapt, but have u heard anything Bridger has been describing?
Try telling this to the Stones sheep.....or elk.....or moose...they DO need some more management.
The Stones sheep only have so much country to inhabit. The bison have shown tremendous resilience as history has shown, to make a go of it anywhere.
Now, unless I'm mistaken, the Stones sheep will not revert to the prairie animal they once were.

[CanuckShooter]

It's my opinion....IF the damage done by the bison pushes the sheep and moose and bears and coyotes and rabbits and all of natures other creatures off the range they are tearing up in that small area...so what?? That's what they do, they root they dig they rub. There are a lot of acres in this great province that hold sheep/elk/moose and only one itsy bitsy spot that has bison....I say let the bison thrive as they did for thousands of years before the sheep/moose/elk moved into their natural range.:wink:

To quote CS spouting off: [I like that BCrams]
""""Are the sheep and elk so much more valuable than the bison?? Do you think we should shoot them off so we can have more sheep and elk??"""

I asked the question...edumicate me...what makes the sheep/moose/elk more valuable than the bison????

[tuffbuff]

1000's of years ago the bison would come into an area and pound it down and move on and give it a rest to regenerate itself. They make circles like elk do. Maybe with the mountains they don't travel as much?

Overpopulation leads to habitat destruction and disease, natural population control, but it would be better if #'s would be thinned out to maintain habitat and condition of animals and hunting should be the best way to do it for everyone except maybe the anti's, as they are moving to other areas - a sign they've outgrown there "home".

I don't know your seasons or regs but the reason for a dec/jan/feb hunt may be the hides are at their prime which is another trophy and they should be down lower for easier access.
I've never seen the bison there but have been into the halfway, nevis and the besa and know a fella that used to catch them up there 15-20 years ago.

Have a helicoptor shoot - or a bag limit like birds - or a 14 day hunt each season.

Regardless the herd should be reduced by 1/2 somehow to maintain your habitat and keep them from migrating...... elk and moose wallow,rub trees and eat grass too!

[Kudu]

There are a lot of wintering ranges for sheep and elk, all across this province, apparently the buff are only in this small concentrated area. Are the sheep and elk so much more valuable than the bison?? Do you think we should shoot them off so we can have more sheep and elk?? If there is an excess of bison in the area why not think a bit bigger picture and move some to another areas of the province and increase the herd size, more buff=more hunting opportunity??

Am I a guide?? Hell no. But I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that the guides would just love to get a bigger allocation eh? And what pulls at the heart strings of the anti crowd more than hollering environmental damage?



Hmmmmm Yes - You clearly know what you are talking about eh?

Lets look at the situation without draging in emotianal bisonshit!!

Animal carrying capacity, covers a wide range of factors, all of which must be taken into consideration when assessing the suitability or effectiveness of grasslands. Particular emphasis must be given to livestock numbers, available vegetation, type of vegetation, and the purpose for which livestock (Bison) are raised in a particular area.

It is now well recognised in all parts of the world that the most economic system of raising livestock is through maximum utilisation of the available plant materials, particularly the grassland or a grass cover.The animal carrying capacity of any area has to be considered in this context.

Sheep are perhaps the most appropriate livestock species for utilising the sparse vegetation available, They can survive on extremely poor and low set vegetation because of their close grazing habits and ability to travel over long distances to obtain sufficient forage and water to subsist. On the same vegetation, other species of livestock would not be able to do so.

In order to arrest further deterioration of rangelands, it is necessary that a positive systematic programme should be introduced by the Government to restrict livestock numbers (Bison), in conjunction with measures to provide greater insurance against hazards such as impoverishment of fodder reserves. Such action programmes must be supported by positive steps to prevent further encroachment on the rangelands and to provide better outlets for livestock (Bison).

Basis for estimating rates of stocking


The energy value of pasture is frequently the only factor taken into consideration. The potential productivity of pasture is expressed in feed units per hectare, and forage evaluation is also calculated in feed units.

This assessment is acceptable when it is possible to add a nitrogenous supplement for the stock during critical periods.
Edible forage yield is often used in estimating rates of stocking; it is based on the concept of an " average living-space quota " for domestic herbivores.

The daily consumption of a head of cattle is usually estimated at 2.5 kg of dry matter per 100 kg of live weight. This consumption may decrease if the dry matter content is low, or if the nutritional value of the forage is low; and conversely it may increase if the forage is rich. With regard to sheep, consumption follows a similar pattern as with goats kept in sheds, although goats may consume up to 5 kg of dry matter per day on natural pasture.

Provided that forage production is calculated in dry matter and not in " green" forage, the rate of stocking can be estimated in the number of days of feed per hectare for 100 kg of live weight:

http://www.fao.org/wairdocs/ILRI/x5543B/x5543b0d.gif
This may similarly be expressed as a yearly rate:
http://www.fao.org/wairdocs/ILRI/x5543B/x5543b0e.gifkg of livestock/ha/year 365
and as a seasonal rate:
http://www.fao.org/wairdocs/ILRI/x5543B/x5543b0f.gif
where n is the number of days in the season under consideration.

The quantity of edible forage produced during the year, in particular for perennial graminaceae, can be estimated on a small area or " placeau " 16 or 25 square meters in size, cut to a level of 5 cm from the ground, at intervals of 30 days, at the period of optimum growth:
Kg DM of edible forage/ha/year =(k1 + k2 +... + ki +... kn)

The potential yield of pasture is revealed in the biomass of herbaceous cover produced during the growth period when the pasture is protected from herbivores. It may be calculated by means of protected placeaux, which are pre-cleared after the end of the rains. The analysis of a partial sample will provide in addition an estimate of the amount of nitrogen that might reasonably be derived from this kind of pasture.

Such a potential yield is never entirely edible, and it is essential to link assessment of potential yield with assessment of the yield of edible fodder for each kind of pasture: this must be achieved through parallel observations.

Nevertheless experiments have shown that approximately half of the biomass produced at the end of the growth period vanishes from small protected areas during the dry season, in the case of both the annual herbaceous cover and the perennial graminaceae cover. In addition, traumas that the plant suffers, caused by browsing during the growth period, decrease yield by interrupting photosynthesis, and this must be compensated for by the liberation of part of the reserves contained in the roots.

The trampling of livestock causes losses, and it is necessary to ensure the maintenance of at least a minimum cover of plant life to protect the soil against the various forms of erosion. The fact that potential yield is consumed at a rate of only 50 percent should also be taken into consideration.

So before we go out with rifles a blazing - or as alternative - go darting half the herd and transecting them to the tropics of the lower mainland - we need to carefully consider all the implications.

When the vast herds thundered across the range a hundred and fifty years ago - they did this imply to find food, leaving huge swath's of land behind that had been well chewed (well documented) the same goes for any large concentration of wild animals from the Serengeti all the way to the Arctic tundra. The Bison are restricted in an unatural enviroment where they are and should be managed acordingly......

[arcadia]

You blinded me with science!

[Bear Chaser]

I asked the question...edumicate me...what makes the sheep/moose/elk more valuable than the bison????

The simple fact that sheep/moose/elk are infinitely more interesting to hunt would make them more valuable to 99% of BC residents if the choice had to be made for either/or forever. There is no special skill needed to kill a bison with a rifle as most I have seen were easily approachable to within 200 yards including some very big bulls. Try riding a horse up to a sheep or an elk in plain sight & broad daylight. It might work 0.5% of the time. Try it with bison and you'll kill one.

Now I'll admit that if you hunt for a specific trophy size animal or in the extreme cold or say you want to use a sharp stick the game will become more challenging. Other than that bison are at best a novelty as a game animal whereas sheep/elk/moose will always be harder to hunt due to location and more interesting due to the rutting behavior of elk & moose.

I believe other people have sufficiently argued the habitat damage from a more scientific view than I can so I'll just say that you should see it for yourself; every place there is soil there is bison damage. Very few of the areas in the alpine meadows and ridgetops will recover from this damage in my lifetime & I am still comparatively young.

[Ambush]

The exact type of intense grazing the buffalo did, as descibed by Kudu, is now being practiced on private, unbroke cattle land. The cattle are rotated through small areas, rather then left to spread over a large area for a long period of time.

The buffalo moved in huge long herds, effectively "tilling" the soil, leaving a brown swath of bare ground. But the seeds, manure and fresh ground offered ideal conditions for regenerating the original plant life.

The main and most important point that Kudu makes is this. Plains buffalo were meant to travel long distances and not return and graze the same place often.
That is not happening in the Peace. They are simply a species at odds with their enviroment.

[Kudu]

You blinded me with science!


(He He) - Keeping it simple

Bison need to eat 2.5 kg of dry matter per 100 kg of live weight. wow!!:(

Sheep / Goats 5kg (total) per day

White tail / Mule deer 5-7 kg per day

Elk - 10 Kg per day

Clearly the "old Bison" are eating machines....

[Fraink]

I was feeling like I was in science class listening to a lecture. I hope the MOE has people with the skills and knowledge to make these determinations. These Bison do not seem to be at odds with their environment, rather they seem to be thriving in it.

As to the herd moving into other drainages.....is it herd size or hunting pressure that is moving them? If keeping the herd restricted to the Halfway and Sikanni drainages is the objective, how about allowing the hunters in the other drainages to harvest bison while they are moose, elk or sheep hunting?

By the by......I am really enjoying this discussion.

[bridger]

ANTI!!!! THEMS FIGHTIN' WORDS....:mrgreen: Hunting is a valid management tool, but I don't buy into the environmental damage argument...it reeks. IF there are healthy herds of bison, there should be more LEHs available, or extended seasons, or a general open season...but I cannot support the notion that the seasons [annual allowable harvest] should be expanded because they are damaging the environment....they were around for thousands of years and we still have sheep and elk....

There are a lot of wintering ranges for sheep and elk, all across this province, apparently the buff are only in this small concentrated area. Are the sheep and elk so much more valuable than the bison?? Do you think we should shoot them off so we can have more sheep and elk?? If there is an excess of bison in the area why not think a bit bigger picture and move some to another areas of the province and increase the herd size, more buff=more hunting opportunity?? The natural order of things would have the herds expanding outside of the areas they already occupy...moving to where there is a better food suppy...and eventually bringing things into balance.

Am I a guide?? Hell no. But I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts that the guides would just love to get a bigger allocation eh? And what pulls at the heart strings of the anti crowd more than hollering environmental damage?

you obviously haven't seen the range deterioation caused by the bison in the halfway and sikanni valleys. I am defianttely not an anti but putting bison in other parts of the province is a non starter. many people are not aware that bison were transplanted in another area north of fort st john. at present there is no season,

[leadpillproductions]

Hey if the gov wants me to thin them out they just have to ask id be there with bells on give them a chance lol

[bridger]

I was feeling like I was in science class listening to a lecture. I hope the MOE has people with the skills and knowledge to make these determinations. These Bison do not seem to be at odds with their environment, rather they seem to be thriving in it.

As to the herd moving into other drainages.....is it herd size or hunting pressure that is moving them? If keeping the herd restricted to the Halfway and Sikanni drainages is the objective, how about allowing the hunters in the other drainages to harvest bison while they are moose, elk or sheep hunting?

By the by......I am really enjoying this discussion.

your idea has merit the local bcwf reps have asked the moe to make the nevis creek and besa river drainages a bison free zone and have gos in the early fall

[cwocarsten]

Stopped hunting in pink mtn for all the reasons abve WRT Moose & Elk. The bison are seem to be pushing game out.

[CanuckShooter]

you obviously haven't seen the range deterioation caused by the bison in the halfway and sikanni valleys. I am defianttely not an anti but putting bison in other parts of the province is a non starter. many people are not aware that bison were transplanted in another area north of fort st john. at present there is no season,

No I haven't seen the range damage......and that is probably what made me have a knee jerk reaction when I read the herds need to be thinned out because of the environmental damage they are causing.

Just about anything that happens in the great outdoors causes environmental damage of one sort or another, so I would think the greater question would be: what are the long term effects of the buff damage going to be?? I've spent many a day in the outdoors looking at human generated damage....ie. mine site above Ashcroft...strip mine near Adams Lake...pipelines-rigs in the peace...soil erosion on giant clear cuts...trees cut to the waterline on lakes...is the bison damage something that will be permanent?? Or is the damage just being used as an excuse to preserve the sheep/elk/moose hunting for those that make profits from the resource???? Sort of like lobbying to have all resident hunters on LEH for everything??

At the end of the day, the decision to thin them out, or not, will not be our call.

[bridger]

No I haven't seen the range damage......and that is probably what made me have a knee jerk reaction when I read the herds need to be thinned out because of the environmental damage they are causing.

Just about anything that happens in the great outdoors causes environmental damage of one sort or another, so I would think the greater question would be: what are the long term effects of the buff damage going to be?? I've spent many a day in the outdoors looking at human generated damage....ie. mine site above Ashcroft...strip mine near Adams Lake...pipelines-rigs in the peace...soil erosion on giant clear cuts...trees cut to the waterline on lakes...is the bison damage something that will be permanent?? Or is the damage just being used as an excuse to preserve the sheep/elk/moose hunting for those that make profits from the resource???? Sort of like lobbying to have all resident hunters on LEH for everything??

At the end of the day, the decision to thin them out, or not, will not be our call.

i know it is hard to understand the toll a large herd of bison can extract from its habitat without really witnessing it first hand. I am not an envrio freak that runs around saying the sky is falling, but i have hunted he halfway and sikanni valleys for moose and elk for a lot of years, but don't waste my time in there any more. The herd has in my opinion expanded to the limits of carrying capacity. that is why they are starting to expand their ranges and I fear the same results in a few years. The call to reduce the numbers can be deteremined by resident hunters and guide outfitters for sure.

[tomahawk]

The herd has in my opinion expanded to the limits of carrying capacity. that is why they are starting to expand their ranges and I fear the same results in a few years. The call to reduce the numbers can be deteremined by resident hunters and guide outfitters for sure.

Agree, they are at capacity or past and seem to be expanding their range from our first hunt 12 yrs ago.

[guest]

After just being up there and seeing the Growth Measurement protection fence, some distance up the 1/2 Way Valley, it is obvious what going on with the grazing or over grazing. The difference out side the fence is HUGE ! Not to say the Bison are doing it all. But we do need balance. Bison likely need to be significantly reduced. It appeared as several numbers of BobCat excavators had been in the country where small to large herds of Bison moved through areas. This never used to be like this in the past. Moose and Elk numbers are down for sure.

I am for LEH Shared hunts with groups of 3 or 4 receiving 2 or 3 tags. Spaced over greater time periods as to not force so many hunters to be there at the same time.

CT

[Fraink]

here is a link to an inventory they did in 2006

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/peace/documents/2006_Plains_bison_Inventory.pdf

I also read somewhere the optimum herd size is between 1000-3000.

[Fraink]

Not sure if the MOE agrees with us there is too many, but even if they think the # of LEH's available is appropriate, a shared hunt makes a lot of sense.
If we only were allowed shared hunts for bison I can't imagine how that could be a problem since I didn't see anyone going it alone. If we could manage the same or slightly better success rate with fewer hunters (helpers) on the ground all would benefit and the bison would experience less hunting pressure (traffic).
If the only hunting pressure the bison experience is in the two drainages they might continue to move out to other drainages such as Nevis Cr. So I support a GOS for bison outside the existing LEH boundary.

[Fraink]

quote=bridger The herd has in my opinion expanded to the limits of carrying capacity. that is why they are starting to expand their ranges and I fear the same results in a few years.

Asking the question to encourage discussion, not trying to be an a hole. Are they expanding their ranges or moving away from all the hunting pressure?

[Bear Chaser]

They were south of the Halfway in September. Lots of moose hunting pressure in that area at the time. Obviously no bison pressure as season wasn't open then. As for Nevis Creek area I can't imagine there being less traffic in there during September as elk, moose, & caribou are all open then although I wasn't in there so I don't know. My guess would be that as a grazing herd animal they will follow the greenest grass outward farther from the main valleys every year.

[Fraink]

I'm not suggesting there is an absence of pressure in the other drainages but it is hard to imagine the pressure is as intense as it is during a bison LEH. When we are actually hunting the bison themselves and not the animals around them, we are shooting (in some cases) directly into the herd. And also we are riding snowmachines (louder than quads) and probably more concentrated than the moose or elk hunters.

[Bear Chaser]

I agree there is undoubtedly far more pressure on the bison in the main valley during the actual LEH. Some of them probably do head for the hills so to speak. However from our Sept hunt this year we saw plenty of bison deep into the side drainages to the north of the Halfway and up over mountain saddles. These areas are located past where your son harvested his bison(congratulations again). There would have been no human pressure to drive them back into there since the previous years hunt. There is a huge amount of country back there that the bison hang out in that cannot be easily accessed during the summer. Horseback or hiking are the only way in. If hunting pressure were the sole determining factor the bison wouldn't go into those high valleys at all. The wide open plateaus and grasslands are the reason they go back in there. Unfortunately they spook a lot of other game that would benefit from the same summer feed out of the country.

[bridger]

bison have moved into the other drainages in the summer following the grass. I doubt hunting pressure has much to do with range expansion as it takes place in the winter and bison merely move to higher ground or into thick timber as a result of hunting season. For many years after their release the bison stayed in the halfway and sikanni valleys. in tough winter they migrated down the halfway into the ranching areas not many survived the wrath of the the ranchers. that is the reason for the drift fence going up the side of pink mtn. another way the moe tried to keep them away from the ranches was to build huge salt licks further up the halfway and sikanni valleys. the north peace rod and gun club and the outfitters in the area have donated thousands of dollars over the years to buy the salt and pay the helicopter time to distribute it and maintain the fence. this worked for awhile, but now the bison are expanding their range both north and south. that plus the range deterioation in the historic ranges leads me to believe the expansion is due to an increasing population. I am not a biogists but have spent a lot of time on the bison issue over the years

[BCRiverBoater]

I am by no means a biologist or anything close to it. But having lived my whole life the FSJ area I have come to know many elders and family members who made a living off the outdoors. There is no question that the bison have caused more damage than good in the above mentioned valley's. There are many reasons why the sheep are in trouble and they caused great decline in numbers without the bison. But now you add bison the equation and it is a recipe for disaster.

The one thing to keep in mind is that these are plains bison and not wood bison. The native bison the the NE and the territories were definitly not plains bison. I am not sure if a population of woods bison would co-exist better with the native sheep and elk but I do know that the plains bison experiment has been tried. And if you talk to anyone with the experience like Bridger or any of the professional hunters of that area...you will get the same response. The bison need to be kocked back and removed from the vary sensitive sheep ranges. As the bison move into the Besa and Nevis valleys it will be devasting. The Sikkani was one of the most game rich areas around FSJ for many decades. We can not afford to lose another great area by the stupidity of others.

[BCrams]

Some questions that perhaps should be asked:

Does the current harvest rate support herd expansion or does it keep the population in check? Conservative harvest rates more often than not support herd expansion and clearly an increase in harvest opportunity needs to be looked at.

Are they waiting for bison to get a 'foothold' so to speak north / south / east of the LEH units before they decide, "hmmmm bison are now established, maybe we should open up more LEH on them!", when in actuality its too late. Open a GOS on them in bordering areas for any bison. Don't wait until they get a foothold.

I remember watching bison and Stone's sheep on the same hill feeding in December. That was back in the 3rd year of LEH bison hunts. I wonder if there's sheep still using that hill today.

[wetcoasthunter]

Who cares if a GOS on bison is a gong show. Spread it over an entire winter and if a guy chooses to make the trip he shouldn't be suprised there are other guys up there, and possibly lots of them. I don't think a GOS for bison would be implimented as an oppertunity for a "quality" hunt, rather it is a tool used by the MOE to control a population. The GOS hopefully wouldn't be needed for too long, and after the population was knocked back to target levels they can, at the same time, change the season. So then you guys that are complaining that there will be too many hunters can go back to not getting drawn for a tag.

[BCrams]

Increase LEH permits within existing Zone A and B.

[bighornbob]

Some questions that perhaps should be asked:

Does the current harvest rate support herd expansion or does it keep the population in check? Conservative harvest rates more often than not support herd expansion and clearly an increase in harvest opportunity needs to be looked at.

Are they waiting for bison to get a 'foothold' so to speak north / south / east of the LEH units before they decide, "hmmmm bison are now established, maybe we should open up more LEH on them!", when in actuality its too late. Open a GOS on them in bordering areas for any bison. Don't wait until they get a foothold.

I remember watching bison and Stone's sheep on the same hill feeding in December. That was back in the 3rd year of LEH bison hunts. I wonder if there's sheep still using that hill today.

They should have a GOS on any bison outside of the sikanni and halfway valleys.

They have it like that at wood buffalo national park. If a buff crosses the line its open season. And yes guys do wait on the park boundry just in case.

BHB

[BCrams]

They should have a GOS on any bison outside of the sikanni and halfway valleys.

They have it like that at wood buffalo national park. If a buff crosses the line its open season. And yes guys do wait on the park boundry just in case.

BHB

Yep. Now is the time to establish the any bison GOS outside the current LEH zones, don't wait until they're established in other valleys!!

Increase the permits and get the harvest up within Zone A and B as well.

[Fraink]

A GOS in the adjacent valleys does make sense, as well as the rumoured LEH offerings for Jan. and Feb.