Non-Breeding Contracts

[Clint_S]

I was going to add this to the designer breed thread but is already well along in it's hijacking :)
I've been on both sides of the fence on the breeding contract issue and my current position on Non Breeding Certificates. I LOVE THEM!
The first point I want to make clear is a NBC does not preclude breeding a bitch and having hundreds of pups if that's your goal it just means those pups will not join the registry.
A breeder has very little control over how a dog is raised, trained or treated once it is out of your hands. One thing you can control in a small degree is the genetic pool of your registered breed of choice. Lets face it, most dog owners are guilty of looking at their dogs through rose coloured glasses especially non working breeds. It seems the more worthless or far removed from it's intended role the dog is the more $ it's pups will command but that's another thread.
First of all try as we might as breeders not every dog is breeding material. There has to be some way to control these genetic culls and a NBC is perfect. They may be fine pets or have an outstanding character trait but just don't merit breeding.
Usually you can spot the person who absolutely requires a NBC right off because they will start talking about breeding before the pup is even house trained never mind proven it's worth as breeding stock.
Standards to remove a NBC will vary but cost only $15 to reverse. I have mine and they will differ from others. Some will be judged merely on looks which is why official registries can be a death knell for working breeds.
I could say more but will leave it there for now.

[labguy]

I was going to add this to the designer breed thread but is already well along in it's hijacking :)
I've been on both sides of the fence on the breeding contract issue and my current position on Non Breeding Certificates. I LOVE THEM!
The first point I want to make clear is a NBC does not preclude breeding a bitch and having hundreds of pups if that's your goal it just means those pups will not join the registry.
A breeder has very little control over how a dog is raised, trained or treated once it is out of your hands. One thing you can control in a small degree is the genetic pool of your registered breed of choice. Lets face it, most dog owners are guilty of looking at their dogs through rose coloured glasses especially non working breeds. It seems the more worthless or far removed from it's intended role the dog is the more $ it's pups will command but that's another thread.
First of all try as we might as breeders not every dog is breeding material. There has to be some way to control these genetic culls and a NBC is perfect. They may be fine pets or have an outstanding character trait but just don't merit breeding.
Usually you can spot the person who absolutely requires a NBC right off because they will start talking about breeding before the pup is even house trained never mind proven it's worth as breeding stock.
Standards to remove a NBC will vary but cost only $15 to reverse. I have mine and they will differ from others. Some will be judged merely on looks which is why official registries can be a death knell for working breeds.
I could say more but will leave it there for now.

All very good points however............your still trying to legislate and regulate responsible breeding by trying to police people.

Honorable, responsible and well informed people will do the right thing regardless of codes of ethics, non breeding agreements or legislation.

I really hate the idea of someone (who probably knows a lot less than I do)telling me what I can and can't do with my dog.

And again, I want to make the point about how some breeders will use this non breeding clause to insure a tigher market place so they can sell these so called "rare breed dogs" at some ridiculously inflated price...........I could site specific examples but I will control that urge.............for now.

[Camp Cook]

labguy very well said I totally agree...

[Kasomor]

All very good points however............your still trying to legislate and regulate responsible breeding by trying to police people.

Honorable, responsible and well informed people will do the right thing regardless of codes of ethics, non breeding agreements or legislation.

I really hate the idea of someone (who probably knows a lot less than I do)telling me what I can and can't do with my dog.



Do you wear your seat belt? Pay taxes? Oh my, that's the government telling you what to do.

You're also a CKC Member. How can you belong to that group of nit-witts? That what you called YOUR club? Does that make you a nit wit? Are you a member of the lab club? WHY? Are they a bunch of nit wits too?

So enlighten us...how would YOU ensure that a pup you bred has all health clearances done, is an excellent example of the bred, correct temperament, is not being bred to some mutt down the road, resulting pups aren't being dumped at a shelter, etc..before they are bred? Or do you believe that every dog with nuts or a uterus should be bred? Do you even care?


AND no one is trying to tell you what you can and can't do with your dog. Oh, maybe the AR people but that's another kettle of fist. Don't buy from a breeder who is trying to get you to do something you don't agree with. Labs are a dime a dozen go to a breeder who sees things the same way you do.

[Steeleco]

This thread will also get closed if it turns into an argument. Play nice!

[Ed.R.Lee]

Education, acceptance and practice should always precede regulations.

Over on the other side of Pacific Ocean where I am, I have taken part in rehoming of unwanted dogs. It's useless to include varied terms in a contract. Instead, we do random background checks and interviews to have a good feel of the potential dog owner before we even sign the contract. Over my course of voluntary work, I have discovered;

A. Couple whose previous dogs fought among themselves when being locked in the bathroom whenever the owner goes to work. Resulted in the death of two out of four dogs they owned. The third was the alpha dog and the fourth was suffering from the bite wounds infection.

B. A boyfriend who wanted to a dog as a surprise birthday gift for his girl, he couldn't give me good answers when I probed further. What's going to happen (to the dog) if you guys break up? What if she doesn't like the dog?

C. A potential dog owner whom I have uncovered to have hidden behind various online identities, adopting dogs for free and reselling them at a ridiculous price.

The thing is, prevention is always better than enforcement. If the breeder has done his/her due diligence, it will tell you if a person is out for breeding or solely as pets/working partners. For me, I always prefer tighter rules with regards to breeders. Particularly, unlicensed backyard breeders. It's also a danger to the potential buyers (of getting cheated) because they don't know how to "check" their dogs.

I have two dogs now, used to be three until my Shetland Sheepdog (sheltie) passed away. All of them adopted instead of buying from breeders. Even as I spoke to various sheltie breeders in Australia and Scotland, they are extremely careful with who purchases the puppies.

If the breeder ain't satisfied, don't sell. If the buyer ain't satisfied, don't buy. It's simple as that.

[kinderdoggin]

I'm with Clint on this one. Our pups used to be sold with no limitations but we have since gone to non-breeding contracts on most, but not all, puppies sold.

I think our agreement is very fair - if I don't know you, you haven't bought a pup from me before, and/or you aren't already competing or breeding dogs, then the pup is sold on a reversible non-breeding agreement. The reversal conditions are set out in the original contract- once the dog has received OFA hip, elbow and CERF eye clearances, the contract is reversed. The price for all pups, whether they go to a competition/breeding home with full rights or as a hunting dog/pet with a non-breeding agreement, is the same.

I don't like the idea of being involved any further than that. I would certainly have no problem buying a dog sold on the same conditions I offer, but wouldn't want to bother if the breeder was going to have to 'approve' of any potential mates, etc. There is a certain amount of emotional 'letting go' that is required to be a breeder <edited to add: pre-screening of puppy buyers is part of the process, I'm not suggesting that you should 'let go' of a puppy to just anyone! I'm referring to 'letting go' of the control over the puppies that are sold, trust being already established through the discussions leading up to the purchase.> It seems with the rarer breeds more stringent conditions are quite common but it wouldn't normal, at least in my experience, to have a lot of 'breeder meddling' with field Labs. Interest and assistance,if requested - yes, control -no.

MHO,
Erin

[Barracuda]

if you dont want the dog bred spay or neuter it before you sell it , stop asking disgusting prices for dogs that cannot be bred (by contract or surgery) and do whats best fro the breed and not the pocket book.

To have a non breeding contract can be a rather nasty practice and haveing that sort of power to lord over someone seems rather dictatorial.

[labguy]

Do you wear your seat belt? Pay taxes? Oh my, that's the government telling you what to do.

You're also a CKC Member. How can you belong to that group of nit-witts? That what you called YOUR club? Does that make you a nit wit? Are you a member of the lab club? WHY? Are they a bunch of nit wits too?

So enlighten us...how would YOU ensure that a pup you bred has all health clearances done, is an excellent example of the bred, correct temperament, is not being bred to some mutt down the road, resulting pups aren't being dumped at a shelter, etc..before they are bred? Or do you believe that every dog with nuts or a uterus should be bred? Do you even care?


AND no one is trying to tell you what you can and can't do with your dog. Oh, maybe the AR people but that's another kettle of fist. Don't buy from a breeder who is trying to get you to do something you don't agree with. Labs are a dime a dozen go to a breeder who sees things the same way you do.

:-DWow..........your just like me.......except female.......:tongue:..it's like having a girl twin.

The answer to your questions (although I'm not too sure you really want an answer) is that I can't insure every aspect my puppies futures.....and neither can you with your non breeding agreements.

Non breeding agreements are only as good as the people who subscribe to them.

You cannot and you never will legislate or regulate decent human behaviors.

And as far as the CKC is concerned........they unfortunately are a necessary evil if you want to compete with your dogs as they are really the only game in town.............

I belong to a retriever club (not the lab club) so I can give back to the sport by chairing and assisting in putting on events, seminars (like the one you were at) and helping people who want to learn this game..........It's about furthering the use of trained retreivers for hunting, competitions and as good canine companions in the field.

Time to call a truce now............I'm done.....................unless a thread on why breeders want so much for their Tollers comes up. :-D.Then I just wouldn't be able to resisit..........:smile:

[kinderdoggin]

Spaying or neutering a puppy at 8 weeks? Yuck. That's a whole 'nother can of worms.

In many cases, a non-breeding agreement is NOT necessarily the end of the dog's breeding career, it is just a means to ensure that a minimum set of requirements are met before the dog is bred (such as a minimum age or health clearances). If you don't like those terms, then look elsewhere for a dog. Having a non-breeding agreement reversed, as Clint mentioned, is not expensive. Whether or not there is a hassle depends on the specifics of the contract and the nature of the parties involved I guess.

As with anything else, everybody has an opinion on how to do things 'right'. Even the different breeders on HBC all have a different idea of how puppies should be raised, under what conditions they should be sold, what makes an ideal dog, etc. Variety is a good thing. It means that there are puppies available as competition prospects, for people looking for a hunting dog, show dog, or pet. Not everybody is looking for the same qualities in a dog (or breeder, for that matter). Find a breeder whose vision of an ideal dog is the same as yours and then go from there.

FWIW, just because a dog is sold on a non-breeding agreement doesn't mean
a) you must have it fixed
b) you can never breed it
c) the breeder is controlling your dog's life
unless there are other conditions attached that indicate this. Just be sure you know if the agreement is reversible, and if so, under what conditions. And if you plan to breed, it's always a good idea to tell the breeder right off the bat to get the discussion rolling.



~Erin

[Barracuda]

Of course it means that the breeder still retains control of the dogs registerable reproductve ability.
Its a great way for breeder to control the market and charge obscene prices .

If it does not have breeding rights then the dog should not be sold as registered and simply should be sold as grade stock. (some great grade stock out there)

It is disgusting what some breeders charge for a worthless registration (registration without breeding rights is worthless)

[Kasomor]

Of course it means that the breeder still retains control of the dogs registerable reproductve ability.
Its a great way for breeder to control the market and charge obscene prices .

If it does not have breeding rights then the dog should not be sold as registered and simply should be sold as grade stock. (some great grade stock out there)

It is disgusting what some breeders charge for a worthless registration (registration without breeding rights is worthless)

Cuda is that all you want a registered dog for is to breed it? You and Labguy have alluded too breeders controlling the market and reproductive ability of dogs. I keep reading this part of your posts and I'm stumped. How does that work?

Yes, there are breeders who will not give you full ownership until a bitch has whelped 3+ litters or a male has sired 5+ for them or want two litters back etc... until the puppy buying public stops buying from them these practices will continue. On the other hand there are buyers who want a pup of a breed that they think they can make $$ off of breeding and breed the h*ll out of it.

I have no use for either.

My "pet" pups are sold on non-breeding with agreement that if the buyers ever decide that they want to breed when certain conditions are met (like what I outlined to labguy) that they can do so.

Potential Performance dogs are sold in co-ownership until the buyer has prove that the dog is worthy of being bred.

I don't sell just breeding stock. In other words NO toller that I sell can be bred just because it has testicles or a uterus.

Most toller breeders encourage all puppy people to keep their dogs intact so that if the dog is proven it can be bred. We don't want to loose ANY genetic material. While there are some breeders who feel all tollers should be bred no matter what, I don't agree with that.

I do want to know what Labguy does to ensure that a pup he has bred has all health clearances done, is an excellent example of the bred, correct temperament, is not being bred to some mutt down the road, resulting pups aren't being dumped at a shelter, etc..before they are bred? Seriously.....

I'm always open to a better way to do something. :)

[Devilbear]

I am owned by Champion Rottweilers and I have had pb dogs since 1954 and Rottgods since 1986. I would NOT buy a pup from a breeder who did not INSIST upon a NBC and a strict one....I have seen too many loving dogs without homes take the needle and had to shoot a couple, myself, an agonizing experience I simply hate.

Case in point, Canadian Champion, "Quean Lily Lovelyface" got her final points last Oct. at the big "Tradex" show and the breeders had kept her sister as breeding stock, but, she has faults. I told them that they could breed "Lily" when she is old enough, she is not yet 2 and thus rebuild their kennel after some devastating deaths. A post-show vet's check showed that beautiful, willful, crowd pleasing Lily has "cataracts" forming and, while I "could" breed her and make $$$$$, I WOULD never do so and she will be spayed in a couple of months.....point is, that a NBC would protect purchasers of pups from a bitch like this and also a reputable breeder from legal action by POed clients.

My boy, "Cisco" who was brought back to Debbie at "Trojan Rottweilers" and went V1 in his first (and only) show, was bought as a companion to Lily, when we still thought we could breed her. He is slightly flawed in strict "show" terms as he has a pink spot in what should be a balck mouth. Cisco does not care as he found me and Lily and loves his new home and is a happy guy at 2.5 years....again, the breeder INSISTED on a NBC and I was happy to comply....everyone wins and the Rotts are happy.

Now, I need a "wounded deer" dog and one that can get along with Rotts.

[Barracuda]

A dog that cannot be used to the fullest extent of its registration is nothing more then a grade dog and its price should reflect it . You are selling a registration and a dog not simply a dog .

Price fixing in the dog world is a disgusting but common practice and obsene profit does nothing more then create greed and damages a breed.

You get what you pay for or they go to better homes if you charge a high price is a wonderfull lie shysters use as they line thier pockets with the cash of the crop.

[Devilbear]

I completely agree and I am always offered much lower than their standard prices by most breeders and even given very fine pb dogs that they cannot place. I paid a "pet price" for Cisco and I cannot recommend "Trojan Rottweilers" too highly, Debbie knows more about dogs than 98% of the people I have met over the years and produces just superb animals.

I bought Lily for far less than the standard price and it was due to the friendship we have developed with her breeder. A lot of this is because I have a large, chainlink fenced yard and many years of " a dog's life" and can and do handle problem Rottweilers and keep them alive and happy for a normal lifespan.

I think that a majority of breeders are decent, but, I can think of three Rottweiler sources in BC that I would not deal with and other breeds have similar problems....some people just a lowlifes, what can ya do?

[labguy]

I do want to know what Labguy does to ensure that a pup he has bred has all health clearances done, is an excellent example of the bred, correct temperament, is not being bred to some mutt down the road, resulting pups aren't being dumped at a shelter, etc..before they are bred? Seriously.....

I'm always open to a better way to do something. :)

Well, since you asked so nicely.:wink:..........in a word..............nothing.

I'm not in the business of policing anyone's integrity or character, and I'm not in the business of selling pups. This litter I had was a one time only deal so I could get a pup for myself.

The people who bought my pups, I either knew personally or I knew of them through the competative retrieving community.............the comptative retrieving world is small..........word gets around.

If I didn't know the buyers personally, I would have to be very comfortable with where the pups were going.........get to know the buyers, their dog history, their reason for buying, long term goals or plans, etc. etc.

I don't see how a NBC can accomplish any more than due dilligence by the breeder on prospective buyers.................it still comes down to the integrity of both parties and the relationship between the two, based on good communication and mutual respect..........which, for me, is a far better way to live my life than being a puppy gestapo..........poor choice of words but you get my drift. :-D

[Clint_S]

Not sure how the discussion of price got mixed up in this but IMO price should not have any bearing on a NBC.

[Barracuda]

money is a big factor with breeding rights i have known breeders to want an extra x amount of money for a dog with breeding rights (as a pup even) and others that want to keep the registered pool small to sustain a price fix .

If all dogs to be sold with a registration had to be sold with breeding rights then that would do away with alot of the inflated prices for poor quality dogs .

I understand the intent of the contract but the reality more often then not it is used as a device to facilitate monetary gain.


look at a kennel club with breeding rights and one without .


As for the whole non breeding contract in the AKC it only applies to the original purchaser unless the new purchaser signs a non breed contract and if someone decides to challange it here it could very well turn out the same.

[Kasomor]

money is a big factor with breeding rights i have known breeders to want an extra x amount of money for a dog with breeding rights (as a pup even) and others that want to keep the registered pool small to sustain a price fix .

If all dogs to be sold with a registration had to be sold with breeding rights then that would do away with alot of the inflated prices for poor quality dogs .

I understand the intent of the contract but the reality more often then not it is used as a device to facilitate monetary gain.


look at a kennel club with breeding rights and one without .


As for the whole non breeding contract in the AKC it only applies to the original purchaser unless the new purchaser signs a non breed contract and if someone decides to challange it here it could very well turn out the same.

Has anyone said that it gets them more $$ to sell a pup on non-breeding?Is not about money Cuda.:icon_frow IMO, the breeders/ people who don't sell pups on non-breeding or co-ownership don't generally care about the pups and only want the $$ in their pocket.

Perhaps if these dogs parents were sold on a non-breeding agreement they would not be homeless, with a Rescue group at the moment and I wouldn't have spent an hour on the phone tonight about a toller in the USA in the same boat!

Check out these dogs with Dogwood Rescue in North Vancouver.
Majority are pointers or weims. Some are trained for hunting.:wink:

http://www.petfinder.com/shelterSearch/shelterSearch.cgi?shelterid=BC167

Regards,
Kasomor

[Barracuda]

Has anyone said that it gets them more $$ to sell a pup on non-breeding?Is not about money Cuda.:icon_frow IMO, the breeders/ people who don't sell pups on non-breeding or co-ownership don't generally care about the pups and only want the $$ in their pocket.

you do realize that not all kennel clubs allow the potentially dishonest practice of non breeding contracts and not all breeders care about makeing money or profit.

Perhaps if these dogs parents were sold on a non-breeding agreement they would not be homeless, with a Rescue group at the moment and I wouldn't have spent an hour on the phone tonight about a toller in the USA in the same boat!

Check out these dogs with Dogwood Rescue in North Vancouver.
Majority are pointers or weims. Some are trained for hunting.:wink:

http://www.petfinder.com/shelterSearch/shelterSearch.cgi?shelterid=BC167

Regards,
Kasomor

I think you are missing the whole supply and demand thing?

you charge a premium for a dog because you know that you are one of the limited suppliers. by limiting the breeders out there you ensure that the market value is high.

If all the dogs that were sold had breeding rights then the ones with the best performance would command the best prices and the lesser ones would fetch far less .


In the synthetic world of price fixing and registration any registered dog fetches a big price even if it isnt any good at its original intended purpose.



If there is no profit there is no reason to have or breed the animal except for the love of the dog and the breed. if a dog has a pedigree and registration then it should have breeding rights .

If it does not have breeding rights then it should be sold as a grade dog and the price should really reflect this.

Remove the money and you remove the greed and shysters. you will also get rid of the jackasses that think that if they pay a high price for a designer dog they will get more dog (pound is full of them just like the pound is full of evry other flavour of the week dog).


the non breeding clause allows people to manipulate the pool and resources of the given breed to benifit themselves.

I refuse to sell a dog or purchase a dog that does not have its entitlement. i would rather buy a grade dog then have a castrated pedigree on principle.

If this means that i lose money i accept that and in fact it costs me more money (not includeing time or feed) to raise a litter then what i could ever hope to get back .

I would happily pay for the total cost of raising a litter of my dogs past and present and give my purebred registered stock to proper homes with breeding rights rather then waste effort selling them. and yes that would even be with full breeding rights.

[BlacktailStalker]

My doberman was bought with a non breeding contract.
If I wanted to have it lifted she needed to be showed and win her championship titles etc.
I considered it, I underwent advanced obedience and other training for 2 years but when the time came to show her, I wanted it done by a professional and didnt want to say good bye to her for 6 months on and off which is the norm (although she felt it wouldnt take her more than couple)!
The reason she puts the NBC on the dogs is to ensure only 'perfect' specimens are bred to try and KEEP the breed as good as it can be.
A good way to keep a less popular breed well bred and a good idea IMO, otherwards you have unknowledgeable average joes taking any male and any female and pumping out litters, ruining them over time like so many every day breeds have been ruined (setters and retrievers come to mind)

Last I saw she had 11 dobermans, some of which were not used to breed because they didnt meet her standards (athough many were still multiple show/obedience/working champions, but failed to meet her expectations for other small reasons most would think weren't a big deal, like a barely noticeable under bite or feet that weren't 'stacked' like they should be or slightly splayed)
The testing the studs and bitches go through is unreal (and very expensive i.e being flown to Guelph University, Ontario to be put on a holter monitor)

[dutchie]

Perhaps if these dogs parents were sold on a non-breeding agreement they would not be homeless, with a Rescue group at the moment and I wouldn't have spent an hour on the phone tonight about a toller in the USA in the same boat!

Check out these dogs with Dogwood Rescue in North Vancouver.
Majority are pointers or weims. Some are trained for hunting.:wink:

I do not agree at all... Weims and GSP's are beautiful dogs, but quite possible the most high maintanence dogs and can be very stubborn. One owner had 7 GSP's and could not handle the puppy they just got!!??<--- great home for a puppy:confused:

This is soley the breeders fault, letting the dogs go to homes that were inappropriate, a non-breeding contract would have not helped the majority because of the 12 GSP's I looked at, only one was PB. NBC only apply to Pure Bred dogs.

I am with Cuda on this that the NBC are more about money then the dogs. "Locks are only for honost people!"... same with NBC.

Something needs to be done to reduce crappy breeings, but NBC's are not the answer, they give a single person too much control (great in a few cases, horrible in the majority).

The CKC/AKC and UKC are too stuborn (and Stupid) to figure out why there is so many health problems within many breeds. Insted of leaving it to the breeders, why do they not set strict standards for themselfs and standards for a dog to be reg'd?? This would involve test, and prove the genetics and health of the dog, then the myth of "all prue bred dogs have health problems" will be put to rest. This would disolve the need for a NBC becasue there is one built into the system. Many breeders would not support this because there is no money in it for them.

Dutchie