View Full Version : lack of big bucks little fort area
kamkid49
12-03-2009, 05:45 PM
i have been hunting the little fort area for over 25 years and have taken some nice bucks in that time (180 class plus) i have not seen a worse year than this year tho. we had a heavy yearling die off last year but that dosn't explain the lack of 4 points and over. anyone else notice this? i hope the biologists take notice!
Jelvis
12-03-2009, 05:52 PM
Maybe everyone else over that twenty five years have taken nice bucks too and your saying a yearling die out, who told you that ? A bio or coffee shop?
How many times did you actually get out in the Little Fart region ?
Jelly-Little Fart-Mu 3-39 ?
kamkid49
12-03-2009, 06:07 PM
allmost everyday all month (and still tryin)
Prowler
12-03-2009, 06:17 PM
Jelvis, go crawl back under your rock!!
I talked to the CO there a few days ago and he did say the die off last year was significant, and not just yearlings. Overworked bucks took a heavy hit as well. I noticed the same thing, not very many bigger bucks. I just got back from hunting 5 1/2 days HARD !!!
GoatGuy
12-03-2009, 06:20 PM
It isn't just the yearlings that die. Depending on the severity the old bucks as well because they're so worn out after the rut.
In theory that's who mother nature kills, the young and the old.
Give it a couple years, they'll bounce back. Lots of habitat from that fire.
kamkid49
12-03-2009, 06:42 PM
thanks prowler wished id'e see the co more when in the bush...... hope your right goatguy its my happy place here for sure! ya and whats jelvis problem?
whats jelvis problem?
haha nothing, after awhile you will get to know him, his posts can come off as a bit loopy, but he seems to be a nice guy :)
horshur
12-03-2009, 06:48 PM
there is a lack of yearlings this year because of last winter however most does had twins trailing along this fall.
We did have a significant winter kill last year that there no denying but IMO the key to the lack of deer this year is the wolves. There are packs up every drainage in the NT and some drainages have mulitple packs. The numbers are a little shocking. While they do eat a lot of deer, I don't think they got them all. I just think the deer are coping by being very elusive and hiding out in the thick crap. It is actually an uncommon sight this year to see them out in the open.
Muleycatcher
12-03-2009, 07:01 PM
I agree, I hunted very hard this year..didn't see many bucks period out in the open. Definately tough going this year.
Jelvis
12-03-2009, 07:10 PM
Maybe the the shut down in region 5 brought pressure and scared the deer back more than usual, that's huge country from Roe to Little Fort.
I know two guys that got there bucks up in Lynn Lake and look you locals are out there so I ain't trying to rattle your chains.
I hunted there too but a few years back. $o things change, sorry to hear your deer are hurtin like that.
If your saying the government needs to take note or something ?
Jel -- Little Fort Rocks -- bad for mosquitters tho -- lol -- You did'nt get the weather that area especially mu 3-39 needs the snow to push those bad boyz down -- up by Tah spinning weels --
In by Crater or, or Birch Lake for a drake.
MattB
12-03-2009, 07:12 PM
Them damn McBride hybrids have moved in and pushed all the local deer out!
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs003.snc3/11065_336914935004_566330004_9875030_2954976_n.jpg
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs003.snc3/11065_336916935004_566330004_9875053_7261636_n.jpg
Husky7mm
12-03-2009, 07:43 PM
This is what is said all over the province. People are will to burn money to try out new areas and seasons. This province is over hunted in almost every region.
I know what wen need is more liberal seasons and more hunter recruitment.
frenchbar
12-03-2009, 08:04 PM
This is what is said all over the province. People are will to burn money to try out new areas and seasons. This province is over hunted in almost every region.
I know what wen need is more liberal seasons and more hunter recruitment.
The reg arent over hunted ..its specfic areas that are over hunted..ie gang ..canal flats ..ect This province is so big i could hunt lots of areas and see plenty game and never see a single hunter for the rest of my life.. over hunted .i dont think so .. Areas change for the worse and better ..you have to change as well ..explore this province a little more and you will be plesantly surprized
This is what is said all over the province. People are will to burn money to try out new areas and seasons. This province is over hunted in almost every region.
I know what wen need is more liberal seasons and more hunter recruitment.
Human hunters are the least of my concerns. For the most part, most stick to the roads and cutblocks. My competition is rather the wolves. A big ol' buck gets big by surviving many years. He's got the wolves figured out. They can't get him too well in the thick crap.
ruger#1
12-03-2009, 08:16 PM
How can it be over hunted, There were more hunters twenty years ago then there are today. I'm with Dana on the wolves , And this is happening in the Okanogan also.
redcomet
12-03-2009, 08:16 PM
We did have a significant winter kill last year that there no denying but IMO the key to the lack of deer this year is the wolves. There are packs up every drainage in the NT and some drainages have mulitple packs. The numbers are a little shocking. While they do eat a lot of deer, I don't think they got them all. I just think the deer are coping by being very elusive and hiding out in the thick crap. It is actually an uncommon sight this year to see them out in the open.
Just curious dana, playing the devils advocate here.
How do you know about the 'shocking' numbers of wolves in the NT, with multiple packs in drainages? So, in the NT are there, 5 packs, 10, packs, maybe more?
You must have some good sources? Or you spend a lot of time in a helicopter on wolf surveys? :???:
I've got good sources. Lets put this in terms people can understand. How many large drainages do you think are in the NT and area??? I don't even want to look at a map to count. And every single drainage has a pack or 2. The numbers have doubled in the last few years. So much so, it has some theorizing that it is impossible for the wolves to increase that much just by breeding alone. Some are thinking we are getting the excess wolves coming up from the States. We gave them the wolves and the wolves are now coming back to bite us in the ass. Recent GPS collaring has blown the theories of old school wolf data out the window.
redcomet
12-03-2009, 08:53 PM
Well those non-resident American hunters should know they need to book with a GO before they can come up here!
Any way to get our hands on that GPS collar data? - not necessarily location data but the summary of results in general, such as those long distance movements? That would be cool!
So, with that many packs do you think that there is a large number of game animals in the NT for them to subsist on? I thought the moose and deer numbers in the NT were down? Sounds like the game will be suffering in the near future if the American migration theory is correct. I thought some trappers were pretty dedicated to wolf trapping in the NT, any idea if they are successful in controlling the numbers?
BlacktailStalker
12-03-2009, 09:13 PM
IF wolf numbers are up so are ungulate numbers.
Maybe its on the downhill spiral but if so wolf numbers will fall too.
Its all about cycles.
I imagine these are huge drainages ? Wolves dont tolerate trespassing and packs fight to the death in overlapping territiories.
IF wolf numbers are up so are ungulate numbers.
Maybe its on the downhill spiral but if so wolf numbers will fall too.
Its all about cycles.
I imagine these are huge drainages ? Wolves dont tolerate trespassing and packs fight to the death in overlapping territiories.
When the predator numbers peak, it is too late for the ungulates, they are already in sevre decline. It is called a predator pit.
As for the thoughts of wolves fighting to the death over territories, that is some of the old data that they are finding out ain't true. The same goes with subs not breeding and not creating their own packs or joining another pack. As for distances travelled, it is pretty incredible. One wolf collared in Valemount was killed by a rancher in Cache Creek. Alberta wolves have been found in Blue River. Sometimes a wolf just picks up and leaves it's pack and joins another 100's of kms away.
Trapping is a joke. Heck the ministry has been paying trappers gobs of money to live trap the suckers so they can figure out whether or not they eat caribou. If they haven't figured that out by now, there is no hope. The trappers that are successful in removing some animals just find the more replace them. This is the reality of game management within this province without a plan or the balls to deal with the predators. Welcome to the new age of hunting. You better get to learn how to get er done in hard times. I know for a fact that those who came to the NT this year with dreams of Big Bucks behind every tree were sadly disappointed. Large hunting camps decended upon us and the vast vast majority went home skunked with many not even seeing a buck.
No, no, it is not called a predator pit. A predator pit is when a prey population follows a particular response curve and falls below a certain level and the predators switch to new prey as they have knocked back the original prey population so far. The first prey population is then stuck in the pit between extinction and being unable to regain numbers without being predated upon.
Steve, stick to shooting rat whitetails. You don't know jack about wildlife biology.
DV-67
12-04-2009, 12:25 PM
No, no, it is not called a predator pit. A predator pit is when a prey population follows a particular response curve and falls below a certain level and the predators switch to new prey as they have knocked back the original prey population so far. The first prey population is then stuck in the pit between extinction and being unable to regain numbers without being predated upon.
Steve, stick to shooting rat whitetails. You don't know jack about wildlife biology.
Your so smart. I wish I was as smart as you.
You must have lots of friends the way you talk down to everybody.
huntwriter
12-04-2009, 12:32 PM
Your so smart. I wish I was as smart as you.
You must have lots of friends the way you talk down to everybody.
Yes he is the smartest guy around we're so lucky to have him here. A true legend in his own mind.:wink:
Bearen 09
12-04-2009, 12:33 PM
i have been hunting the little fort area for over 25 years and have taken some nice bucks in that time (180 class plus) i have not seen a worse year than this year tho. we had a heavy yearling die off last year but that doesn't explain the lack of 4 points and over. anyone else notice this? i hope the biologists take notice!
Its ever were, in Alberta also. Can not understand it but something is going on and its not winter kill either.:confused: Have noticed allot of coyote though, still not finding the kill site's ?????
Glassman
12-04-2009, 12:41 PM
Yes, I also agree that there were/is less deer around Little Fort, Darlington,Barriere this year. Friends that live there say the same thing.
Your so smart. I wish I was as smart as you.
You must have lots of friends the way you talk down to everybody.
Actually I'm not very smart, I just listen when people talk, and I don't make things up.
arcadia
12-04-2009, 01:21 PM
Record snowfalls in Clearwater down low (in town) last year.
Wolves. A friend of a friend shot one in Port Alberni. It had 12 puppies inside her. These guys can multiply!!
Elkhound
12-04-2009, 01:43 PM
Less insults. More facts would impress me
Jelvis
12-04-2009, 06:06 PM
No snow this year below 5000n ft in Kamloops and Barriere so far on and off, that is abnormal for a while now, not unusual but this year is really weird for snow fall ? Deer spread out and harder to pin point.
Lots of deer when I went to there this year but no snow.
Savano the same need deep snow on the mountains to bring them down.
If it's as bad as your negative response then maybe follow the rest of BC and go Nov 10th like reg 8 and reg 5, it will come if it's as bad as you local jokels are preaching.
So who and what user's get's cut back first, then second then third then fourth.
Jel -- some of you are saying change is needed so who and what changes to protect these dwindling stocks of Rocky Mountain Mule deers in the Clearwater/Little Fart area of reg 3
horshur
12-04-2009, 07:26 PM
Oh for cripes sake the hunting was fine this year about what was typical too many folks have been riding the peak and think that is normal...just shithouse luck if you really looked at the available winter range that the numbers were as high as they were for so long. One or two "Normal" winters and it's back where it should be........if you really saw what and where they survived last year it defies the imagination....we had 10 feet accumalated snow on the valley bottom and most of the mature does twinned!!
PGK,
What is the species that is on the verge of extinction right now in the North Thompson eh? Mountain Caribou. The wolves are now hunting the deer. The deer are feeling the adverse effects of the added pressure. There is safety in the thick crap. Come out in the openings and they put themselves at risk. How many deer a week can a pack eat? Do you know? Human hunting pressure ain't nothing compared to what these dogs can do. For some reason they seem to perfer muleys over whiteys. The other day I saw 2 whitetails feeding in a haystack. Only a couple hundred yards away I watched 2 large wolves put the run on a yote that was in a field mousing. Those wolves were more concerned with that yote than the 2 whitetails. Wolves are bold to be around the houses like that. But this is becoming a common occurance. Used to be the deer were safe in around the ranches. Now there as so few ranches running beef, that they aren't shooting wolves anymore. The BSE crisis has helped the wolf flourish.
Jelly,
While there was a lot of guys hunting here this year, no one was shooting deer. There has not been a 'blood bath' because of Region 5's closure. Actually, the bulk of the out of towners came in Oct this year. Nov has been pretty quiet compared to most years. The Oct hunters had a real hard time cause the yearling bucks are a missing componant in the deer herd due to a heavy mortality in last year's fawn crop during last winter.
Jelvis
12-04-2009, 07:58 PM
Well coming from the Horsh it's sounds like usual and no need to panic about the chatter boxes who say no big bucks up in Little Fart reg 3, and find out they hunted for a total of three days or even a couple long week ends, ain't going to tell you a whole lot, even tell yah squat, it just feels good to be walking the ridges and seeing a deer or three.
We needed some good local know how and it brings us back to keel.
Deer herds have ten percent big bucks so if there are 400 deer in the winter range, 40 would be over 3 and a half years old - meaning from 20 inch rack to possibly record booker - 5 and a halfs and up are the ones we are looking for -- or if it's just for the meat, get an leh antlerless and try for meat. Six a one half dozen of the tother -+++->
Jel -- Pi$tol Packin Panicky Pete -- make sure you don't cause too many ripplez --
Could cost you the longer season -- or changes like region 5 - Nov 10 to 20 -
People will listen to you and agree -- then Ka Powy -- > Woomp thar it is < --
Jel -- I was out for 7 hours and saw 22 deer, twenty doe and two buck$ --
GoatGuy
12-04-2009, 08:03 PM
Deer herds have ten percent big bucks so if there are 400 deer in the winter range, 40 would be over 3 and a half years old - meaning from 20 inch rack to possibly record booker - 5 and a halfs and up are the ones we are looking for -- --
You'd be lucky to get 3-4 % of the deer population in most parts of BC.
In an un-hunted herd you might get around 10-12%, maybe.
GoatGuy
12-04-2009, 08:05 PM
No, no, it is not called a predator pit. A predator pit is when a prey population follows a particular response curve and falls below a certain level and the predators switch to new prey as they have knocked back the original prey population so far. The first prey population is then stuck in the pit between extinction and being unable to regain numbers without being predated upon.
Pretty close.....
redcomet
12-04-2009, 08:52 PM
Mountain caribou, scmaribou....they're on the decline for many more reasons than wolves alone....
I'm no epxert but the last time I checked, wolves favour moose over deer...so there must be apretty good population of moose in the NT for the wolves to get that high in numbers?! Thoughts on that?
I agree the mule deer want to make themselves scarce where the wolves roam for moose, and timber up in the thick crap at higher elevations than the moose.
I think that deer are appetizers, and moose are the main stay in the NT! It seems even the wolves don't like those pesky whitetails in the ranchlands in the NT, as dana pointed out, but that's just one observation. Besides, as grizzlies hate black bears, wolves hate coyotes, and they will do what it takes to reduce competition, kind of like us...makes sense!
And, I respectfully disagree on the BSE statement. Despite ranchers stocking less cattle due to BSE, the last time I checked everyone that used to shoot wolves or coyotes (ranchers, fellow hunters, etc) are still shooting those wolves/yotes. Most people that carry rifles in their vehicles during winter looking for yotes and wolves will continue to cull these guys whenever possible.
Just a few thoughts.
Islandeer
12-04-2009, 09:04 PM
How can it be over hunted, There were more hunters twenty years ago then there are today. I'm with Dana on the wolves , And this is happening in the Okanogan also.
Ruger, did yoy get a nose job? It looks good in a feminie kind of way.
back on topic, here on the island our deer have devestated by wolves and are now slowly coming back. It seems that the survivors love the thick crap and open country sightings are very rare. Your LF deer will come back and you may find them in new if not thicker places.
Kinda what Dana said ...
Gamebuster
12-04-2009, 09:28 PM
When the predator numbers peak, it is too late for the ungulates, they are already in sevre decline. It is called a predator pit.
As for the thoughts of wolves fighting to the death over territories, that is some of the old data that they are finding out ain't true. The same goes with subs not breeding and not creating their own packs or joining another pack. As for distances travelled, it is pretty incredible. One wolf collared in Valemount was killed by a rancher in Cache Creek. Alberta wolves have been found in Blue River. Sometimes a wolf just picks up and leaves it's pack and joins another 100's of kms away.
Trapping is a joke. Heck the ministry has been paying trappers gobs of money to live trap the suckers so they can figure out whether or not they eat caribou. If they haven't figured that out by now, there is no hope.
you're wrong about this...they collaring dogs so they know which packs are killin bou...I'm sure they're smart enough to know that wolves do kill caribou. No sense in taking out a pack that's dining on moose and deer and never goes into caribou areas as the pack that moves in may become bou killers. Pretty logical if you ask me.
If you caught the wolf, why not kill it. Why turn it loose and spend a bunch of tax payers money to see if it kills a bou. Best story I heard was a trapper that live trapped one in the NT last winter. Called the MOE. They came and paid him the money. They did their thing weighing and measuring and collaring and then turned it loose. That is when the trapper shot the damn thing right in front of the MOE boys. Why let a good pelt go to waste?
rockdog
12-06-2009, 11:30 AM
Question for Dana:
Not sure if this can be generalized Steve but is there a rough # of how many wolves per pack in these drainages? Basically how many wolves constitute a pack? Just curious, thanks for any input you might have.
HighOctane
12-06-2009, 01:06 PM
Well, believe it or not, I even watched three coyotes try to chase down a mulie doe in a farmers field this October. I know they are killing the fawns too as I have come across many kills in that area already. The cat population has grown too, as I have a trail cam picture with four different cats on it in the same frame from early september, was actully charged by one this October! and started taking notes of 11 different cat tracks in a semi wintering area last week. I bought a Foxpro this year to do my part with the yotes, have a buddy with dogs for the kittys and will definately try my damndest to grease some wolves. Just wish there was some way to specifically hunt them that worked consistently. I hear that they kill more moose than hunters and traffic/railways combined.
Ltbullken
12-06-2009, 01:22 PM
I've got good sources. Lets put this in terms people can understand. How many large drainages do you think are in the NT and area??? I don't even want to look at a map to count. And every single drainage has a pack or 2. The numbers have doubled in the last few years. So much so, it has some theorizing that it is impossible for the wolves to increase that much just by breeding alone. Some are thinking we are getting the excess wolves coming up from the States. We gave them the wolves and the wolves are now coming back to bite us in the ass. Recent GPS collaring has blown the theories of old school wolf data out the window.
This is very interesting... but what is your source? This sounds all too.... :confused: in terms people can understand.
Ltbullken
12-06-2009, 01:24 PM
Mountain caribou, scmaribou....they're on the decline for many more reasons than wolves alone....
I'm no epxert but the last time I checked, wolves favour moose over deer...so there must be apretty good population of moose in the NT for the wolves to get that high in numbers?! Thoughts on that?
I agree the mule deer want to make themselves scarce where the wolves roam for moose, and timber up in the thick crap at higher elevations than the moose.
I think that deer are appetizers, and moose are the main stay in the NT! It seems even the wolves don't like those pesky whitetails in the ranchlands in the NT, as dana pointed out, but that's just one observation. Besides, as grizzlies hate black bears, wolves hate coyotes, and they will do what it takes to reduce competition, kind of like us...makes sense!
And, I respectfully disagree on the BSE statement. Despite ranchers stocking less cattle due to BSE, the last time I checked everyone that used to shoot wolves or coyotes (ranchers, fellow hunters, etc) are still shooting those wolves/yotes. Most people that carry rifles in their vehicles during winter looking for yotes and wolves will continue to cull these guys whenever possible.
Just a few thoughts.
I read a biologists report some time back that said wolves feed mostly on mice.
todbartell
12-06-2009, 01:35 PM
Lots of wolves in the region
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/2005_Mulie_Hunt_019.jpg
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/2005_Mulie_Hunt_022.jpg
and cats
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/13Pictures_779.jpg
but they dont eat them all....
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v322/244/12/700990379/n700990379_1710237_1111.jpg
Jelvis
12-06-2009, 01:36 PM
Coyotes eat more deer than wolves and cougarz eat the most deer out of the three.
Jel -- you've been informed
Ltbullken
12-06-2009, 01:42 PM
Its ever were, in Alberta also. Can not understand it but something is going on and its not winter kill either.:confused: Have noticed allot of coyote though, still not finding the kill site's ?????
I hear Alberta is darned near ready to call WT an invasive species!! They're everywhere like rats!!
Has anyone spoken to the Reg biologist in Kamloops and asked what is going on in the Reg?? The BC Outdoors hunt forecast, quoting Doug Jury, mentions wolf predation as a concern to moose populations. It also says wolf pops have double in the past decade. Time to seriously go after wolves. Ok, does anyone care to say where they know of a pack or two around the Kamloops area? :-D
HighOctane
12-06-2009, 01:46 PM
I hear Alberta is darned near ready to call WT an invasive species!! They're everywhere like rats!!
Has anyone spoken to the Reg biologist in Kamloops and asked what is going on in the Reg?? The BC Outdoors hunt forecast, quoting Doug Jury, mentions wolf predation as a concern to moose populations. It also says wolf pops have double in the past decade. Time to seriously go after wolves. Ok, does anyone care to say where they know of a pack or two around the Kamloops area? :-D
I have seen tracks on the Sydney Lake road. I think 4 different ones, and I have a trail cam pic of three near Tranquille Lake.
horshur
12-06-2009, 03:33 PM
I have seen tracks on the Sydney Lake road. I think 4 different ones, and I have a trail cam pic of three near Tranquille Lake.
Tranquile is nowhere near Little Fort........
HighOctane
12-06-2009, 05:29 PM
Tranquile is nowhere near Little Fort........
He asked for a pack or two around Kamloops FYI.
horshur
12-06-2009, 05:36 PM
He asked for a pack or two around Kamloops FYI.
you have trail cameras in little fort and tranquile???
palmer
12-06-2009, 06:14 PM
In the Christina Lake area , Whitetail numbers are way down and wolf sightings are way up...It is also very common now to find a wolf kill. I am no expert but the deer both mule and whitetail numbers are down and wolf numbers up...5 years ago no one came across tracks and now everybody is telling the tale....AND NO SEASON IN 8 YET.
Ltbullken
12-06-2009, 10:07 PM
Tranquille Lk - got it! Syndney Lk Rd - got it! C'mere wolfie! :twisted:
mitchell
12-06-2009, 10:21 PM
real good story on wolf 81 athabasca to bridge lake in bc trapper magazine good job Richard
Stone Sheep Steve
12-07-2009, 04:41 AM
I read a biologists report some time back that said wolves feed mostly on mice.
Same type of bios that tell you grizzlies are on the edge of extinction here in BC .......and that coastal wolves are a unique species....and that bears in the Great Bear Rainforest need protection.......ect....etc....etc..........:-?.
Get the picture??
SSS
Stone Sheep Steve
12-07-2009, 04:43 AM
In the Christina Lake area , Whitetail numbers are way down and wolf sightings are way up...It is also very common now to find a wolf kill. I am no expert but the deer both mule and whitetail numbers are down and wolf numbers up...5 years ago no one came across tracks and now everybody is telling the tale....AND NO SEASON IN 8 YET.
GPS the location, take pics and email them to Brian Harris, Tom Ethier, and Mr Penner.
Tell all your friends to do the same.
SSS
GoatGuy
12-07-2009, 08:00 AM
GPS the location, take pics and email them to Brian Harris, Tom Ethier, and Mr Penner.
Tell all your friends to do the same.
SSS
don't forget to cc your MLA. :wink: Don't see much happening in the office until the Minister's on board.
Vanman1985
12-08-2009, 03:06 AM
Hey Dana, let me know which drainage you've got a wolf problem in. I've got the foxpro and the 22-250 ready to go!!! :-D
horshur
12-08-2009, 10:04 AM
Hey Dana, let me know which drainage you've got a wolf problem in. I've got the foxpro and the 22-250 ready to go!!! :-D
start on westside road or fadear creek or orchard lake and head north.
dixon creek, genier lakes, nrth lake, johnson lake, moose meadows,
Gorman lake, Bonaparte, Darlington, Thuya ,Eakin creek up to phinneta and nehalston as well lemieux creek ect adinfinitum
Jelvis
12-08-2009, 05:02 PM
Easier to go by mu maybe ? Little Fort is surrounded by different mu's. Mu's 3-28, 3-38, 3-39, 3-40, 3-41 and throw in 3-30
Lots of places to hide from people - lol - where are the deer at in question?
Jel -- name the main vien -- what mu closest to Little Fart is the worstest ?
Lacking (BIG) buck$ ?
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