Mountain Goat: Proposed Regulation to Reduce Female Harvest

[jml11]

Yet another proposal...comment as you see fit. I already did for the White-tailed proposal and the Region Mule Deer FAQ and will probably do so for this one too.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/managment-issues/index.html#mtngoatfemales

I agree with this proposal but obvioulsy I can see difficulties with enforcement.

Thoughts?

[brotherjack]

Why would it be hard to enforce? They'd just do it like they do bears currently -- get caught with a female, and they'll assume you were in violation of the law and treat you as such unless you can prove otherwise. :(

[kootenayelkslayer]

Well it's clearly a good idea, but damn near impossible to enforce, like you said.

[jml11]

Why would it be hard to enforce? They'd just do it like they do bears currently -- get caught with a female, and they'll assume you were in violation of the law and treat you as such unless you can prove otherwise. :(


I've shot a couple sow bears and no one has ever questioned it...it's an honor system. Like it says in the proposal, shooting a nanny from a group that has no kids or solitary is ok. How any CO or CI would know this when all you bring in a set of horns is beyond me...unless someone sees you do it!

[brotherjack]

I've shot a couple sow bears and no one has ever questioned it...it's an honor system.

I'm happy for you, but rest assured, it don't always work that way.

I got a good buddy who shot one a few years ago with witnesses (including me) to the fact that there were no cubs to be seen before the shot, and additional witnesses to the fact that we spent half an hour or so looking for cubs in the general area after the shot. No cubs. Regs (at the time) said something about no bear 2 years or younger or any bear in it's company. Well, no such bears around here -- so we all figured it was legal, and took the bear home, skinned it and butchered it.

Well, we made no secrets of what had happened -- seeing as how it was, in theory, totally legal -- but once word got around that a sow had been shot, and a few days later the C.O. shows up at his door saying cubs had been found in that area, and proceeds to read my buddy the riot act, including a warning ticket (no fine, but still shows up on his record) for illegal possession of wildlife parts, confiscating the bear hide, and threatening him that if he didn't like that deal; they'd be happy to charge him and let the courts sort it out. My buddy didn't have enough $$$ to fight that kind of battle, so he let it slide, but needless to say, that whole deal left a REAL bad taste with both him and me (and a few other folks as well). The C.O. in question mentioned repeatedly, that shooting a sow was illegal, and anyone he caught was a sow carcass would get charged (and how he was doing my buddy a favour to let him off with just a warning).

I've also read several stories online of guys here and there in B.C. with similar experiences at game-checks when heading home with a sow in the truck.

YMMV, I suppose.

[huntcoop]

Why not close all Nannies, period. Do that for a few years to get the numbers back up.

[Browningmirage]

legit concern...enforcement nightmare.

[ufishifish2]

I agree with the proposed regs change. It may be difficult to enforce, but atleast fewer hunters would be shooting Nannies, and that's what matters most.

[jml11]

I'm happy for you, but rest assured, it don't always work that way.

I got a good buddy who shot one a few years ago with witnesses (including me) to the fact that there were no cubs to be seen before the shot, and additional witnesses to the fact that we spent half an hour or so looking for cubs in the general area after the shot. No cubs. Regs (at the time) said something about no bear 2 years or younger or any bear in it's company. Well, no such bears around here -- so we all figured it was legal, and took the bear home, skinned it and butchered it.

Well, we made no secrets of what had happened -- seeing as how it was, in theory, totally legal -- but once word got around that a sow had been shot, and a few days later the C.O. shows up at his door saying cubs had been found in that area, and proceeds to read my buddy the riot act, including a warning ticket (no fine, but still shows up on his record) for illegal possession of wildlife parts, confiscating the bear hide, and threatening him that if he didn't like that deal; they'd be happy to charge him and let the courts sort it out. My buddy didn't have enough $$$ to fight that kind of battle, so he let it slide, but needless to say, that whole deal left a REAL bad taste with both him and me (and a few other folks as well). The C.O. in question mentioned repeatedly, that shooting a sow was illegal, and anyone he caught was a sow carcass would get charged (and how he was doing my buddy a favour to let him off with just a warning).

I've also read several stories online of guys here and there in B.C. with similar experiences at game-checks when heading home with a sow in the truck.

YMMV, I suppose.

I'm sorry but that CO is an idiot and I really hope he isn't working as a CO anymore. That was an unfortunate experience for both of you. I bet hundreds of sows are shot every year, without incident. There are many, many dry sows out there! We've been checked by COs when we had bears in the truck and they didn't look at them for sex id.

Not that I would ever support the harvesting of sows or nannies with young, the only way you can get charged (and have it stick) is if someone witnesses it. They can't just assume you broke the law just because you killed a female. After all, in the eyes of the law I thought you were considered innocent until proven guilty? (I know COs seem to work backwards though :-?.)

[horshur]

With much of Goat on LEH and all under manditory inspection I wonder why????????? Is it realy a problem????

[guest]

Just remember guys, Nanny's are often the herd leaders, not Billy's.

Taking out a lead Nanny is irresponsible and should be frowned upon by any hunter with ethics of any kind.

Unfortunately, this would be a tough rule to enforce and will be beat in court by many a lawyer.

Myself, I will never shoot ANY Nanny, it's just not the right thing to do.

Learn to ID them and study them with materials available ... if you have any concern for doing the RIGHT thing.

Or just ask BC billies, ....... how do you do that ?...... he is a prime candidate for doing what is right for the BC Goat population.

What say you BCBillies ???

CT

[ElkMasterC]

Enforcement aside, just educating hunters to the new rules, and why they are in effect will have a positive outcome on harvest, IMHO.

[ROEBUCK]

why make it more complicated!most hunters would rather shoot a billie,you dont get the drunk weekend warriors after goats, so why make laws that are dificult to abide by ,so what if the occasional nanie gets harvested!! there not endangered!!

[ElkMasterC]

Neither were Passenger Pigeons...... *ahem*

[Krico]

Yet another not so well thought out regulation, with good intentions, which will be ineffective and near impossible to enforce.

They already ask hunters to select a billy, and I think most try to do so. Now when honest mistakes are made on the mountain some will consider leaving behind a nanny to avoid trouble, and perhaps even continue hunting and harvest another animal. Even if the nanny they shot was not in a family unit, simply because of the difficulties some have had with sows...

[jml11]

why make it more complicated!most hunters would rather shoot a billie,you dont get the drunk weekend warriors after goats, so why make laws that are dificult to abide by ,so what if the occasional nanie gets harvested!! there not endangered!!

The proposal from the Ministry states that there is a Conservation Concern due to a continued high level of female goat harvest so apparently the current education program isn't enough. Even though you may think most hunters would rather shoot a billie, there are still a lot of hunters who would shoot the first goat they see regardless of sex, just to say they got a goat or fill that hard to get LEH authorization, especially if it's their first goat. I admit that when I shot my first goat, I did not ID for sex and shot the first one that gave me an opportunity. Lucky for me the goat was alone and was a billie. I was selective to only a billy the second time. There have even been some posts on here of people targeting 'dry' nannies...their logic baffles me...

I agree though this may make it more complicated...how far from outside a group does a goat have to be to not be considered part of that group? 50 meters, 100 meters, 500 meters??

[6616]

This proposal originally said you couldn't shoot any goat out of a group or family unit. The BCWF wildlife committee pointed out that this would effectivelly prevent anyone from harvesting goats once the rut commenced and thus got the wording changed, not saying we're happy with it yet, but it'a darn sight better then what was first proposed.

In some areas up to 35% of the kill is female which is not deemed sustainable thus the annual allottment of LEH authorizations has to be reduced to keep the female harvest within sustainability limits. Considering this, it's not really a conservation concern, but if we shoot fewer female goats there will be more authorizations available. This is important in some regions where residents are not utilizing their allocation. We can't harvest our allocation if there's not enough authorizations, and we often can't get enough authorizations because the total number of authorizations is restricted by the percentage of the harvest that is female.

I said the same thing when the committee asked us for comments, "mostly ineffective and highly unenforceable". I don't know what the answer is...???

From the MOE web site:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/docs/notice_to_mtn_goat_hunters.pdf

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/docs/goat_orientation_08Utah.pdf

[Browningmirage]

why make it more complicated!most hunters would rather shoot a billie,you dont get the drunk weekend warriors after goats, so why make laws that are dificult to abide by ,so what if the occasional nanie gets harvested!! there not endangered!!

its their reproductive biology...females get more reproductively fit as they age. as a result, non selective harvest of individuals (m or f) cannot be sustained at levels above 1% for most pop'ns (although that stat comes from Caw Ridge modelling)

No matter how you look at it, it can be tricky sometimes. the proportion of females in the harvest is still >15% for gos and even higher then that for residents.

[yukon john]

I like it right now a guy can look at a nanny and kid a convince himself to shoot it because it is only recommended that he doesnt just like if he has a cow/calf tag he can legally shoot the cow cause it has more meat and leave the calf to starve. I know it is hard to enforce but some of the guys hammering nannies are only doing it because they feel the mountain owes them something they will ignore a ''recommendation but are not prepared to break the law.

[PGK]

I like it.

I think it is designed to increase the awareness around the nanny shooting issue. Guys will know they can get away with it, but the very idea that it will be illegal to do so is going to force guys with ethics regarding the letter of the law (I dare point out rocksteady here) to shoot a billy.

I'm not saying rocksteady was wrong to shoot a nanny. It's legal. But the point of the issue is that too many nannies are being shot, and this does result in population decrease and reduced opportunity. If the regulations had stated as the proposal says, I am certain rocksteady would have more than hesitated over pulling the trigger on a nanny in the company of other goats (although I am not exactly sure what his exact hunting situation was). The point is, it makes people more aware of the problems with killing nannies and forces well intentioned people to properly ID their goats.

If I read right, resident harvest is about 35-40% nannies? Matt, back me up there? Non resident nanny harvest is insignificant, like less than 2%. Which makes sense as the outfitters want to keep healthy populations, and clients want big billies.

You can say it's impossible to enforce, but don't think the minsitry doesn't know that. I don't think they're worried about enforcement so much as emphasizing the need to shoot billies and not nannies. You can't just say "no nannies may be harvested'' because you can't turn well intentioned people into criminals because they made a mistake. Anyone can screw up IDing a billy from a nanny, and penalizing those people under a strict billy only regulation is not feasible.

I really look forward to see what kind of impact this may have on harvest rates!

[BCbillies]

Learn to ID them and study them with materials available ... if you have any concern for doing the RIGHT thing.

Or just ask BC billies, ....... how do you do that ?...... he is a prime candidate for doing what is right for the BC Goat population.

What say you BCBillies ???

CT

Some may say that doing the right thing for the goat population is to fatten guys like me up! :wink:

My comment would be that we have lots of laws that are difficult to enforce or simply do not have the resources to enforce . . . but what is the overall intent of the law? If it will send the right message and cause most people to think twice then what the hey! In court a person would have to have pretty good evidence for a charge but it can happen with photos/video.

A few years back I harvested two nannies (in separate years) and my feelings were mixed. At the time I was more keen to fill a tag and make some sausage rather than focus on the conservation concerns. I believe many hunters (especially if they have travelled a distance) plan a goat hunt intending to shoot a billy but as the hunt progresses the "any legal goat" starts to look appealing. Educating yourself, spending time in the field looking at horn, sticking to a plan and teaming up someone experienced will all help in bringing home that billy!

BTW . . . was it considered or is it being considered that if you shot a nanny one year that you couldn't hunt goats for say the next two years?

[PGK]

BTW . . . was it considered or is it being considered that if you shot a nanny one year that you couldn't hunt goats for say the next two years?

A good idea that I personally think needs exploring, but it would be difficult in application. More information to keep track of for an already overtaxed MOE.

[BCbillies]

A good idea that I personally think needs exploring, but it would be difficult in application. More information to keep track of for an already overtaxed MOE.

It can be done as they had this in place for Region 7 for a hunter that harvested a sheep that was under 8 years of age (no intention to highjack the thread). I know the staffing levels are bare bones!

[6616]

If I read right, resident harvest is about 35-40% nannies? Matt, back me up there? Non resident nanny harvest is insignificant, like less than 2%. Which makes sense as the outfitters want to keep healthy populations, and clients want big billies.


Your numbers are pretty close, nanny harvest varies from 30 to 40 percent for residents and around 15 to 20 % for non-residents.

[6616]

BTW . . . was it considered or is it being considered that if you shot a nanny one year that you couldn't hunt goats for say the next two years?

That concept was kicked around quite a bit a couple of years ago by the PHRAAC committee, I liked it, I don't know why it fell by the wayside but I'd suspect it's because the majority of goat hunters only shoot 3 or 4 goats in their entire career, or only hunt goats once every few years, thus might not be as effective as hoped.

[6616]

Your numbers are pretty close, nanny harvest varies from 30 to 40 percent for residents and around 15 to 20 % for non-residents.

OK I just looked it up for Region 4 (average from 2003 to 2008):

Residents 20 to 25% females.
Non-residents - 10 to 20% females.

Appears residents may be a little better then I previously stated, at least in Region 4.

[Lucky77_]

what about putting a roylety on nannys??

[Browningmirage]

OK I just looked it up for Region 4 (average from 2003 to 2008):

Residents 20 to 25% females.
Non-residents - 10 to 20% females.

Appears residents may be a little better then I previously stated, at least in Region 4.


sounds about right.

I would say that non-residents are actually pretty close to that 20% figure though.

I think what you are looking at is still pretty severe, if a professional who is guiding for a client who wants a trophy is still taking nannies, it speaks to the difficulties in id'ing the sex of mountain goats.

Further, the real issue here is that goat populations are extremely sensitive to harvest, and taking a female is going to have severe implications on the population. If there wasnt a concern about taking females, they wouldnt be running these new regulations out. Like all biology, it is a long way from being simple. Like all management it runs alot deeper than eliminate harvest completely. I think we all need to remember that.

[dana]

Considering the bulk of the southern end of the province is LEH with tons of units being underprescribed, I don't see why they would need to do anything more than what is already done. A nanny gets shot, the tag numbers drop. The unit goes from .5:1 to 1.5:1. Big deal! In my opinion, we have put too much focus on hunting and ignored the many many other reasons for the decline of goats in some Regions. When very very few goats are getting killed it isn't an issue of nanny versus billy it is much much bigger than that.

[BCbillies]

sounds about right.

I would say that non-residents are actually pretty close to that 20% figure though.

I think what you are looking at is still pretty severe, if a professional who is guiding for a client who wants a trophy is still taking nannies, it speaks to the difficulties in id'ing the sex of mountain goats.


IMO . . . in general most guides know the difference between a billy and a nanny. The chubby client who may only have one goat hunt in him and has dropped $12,000 (at least where I live) is happy to bring home any set of horns . . . and conservation doesn't enter the equation!

[Amphibious]

Why would it be hard to enforce? They'd just do it like they do bears currently -- get caught with a female, and they'll assume you were in violation of the law and treat you as such unless you can prove otherwise. :(


total 100% BULLSHIT. I have shot more then a few sows, guided LOTS of sows.

it's 100% LEGAL. no cubs? no problem.

where do you get this shit?

[lightmag]

100% agree!! very hard to enforce, but still will reduce female harvest because most ethical hunters will not shoot a female in a family setting. It's a start in the right direction, you will never be able to out right ban female harvests as the chance for a mistake are too high.

[kootenayelkslayer]

sounds about right.
I think what you are looking at is still pretty severe, if a professional who is guiding for a client who wants a trophy is still taking nannies, it speaks to the difficulties in id'ing the sex of mountain goats.


Not all guides are professionals though ;)

I think part of the reason many nannies get shot by hunters is this: A hunter spots some goats from the valley below, too far away to ID them. So he does a grueling 6 hour hike and just about kills himself to get up there, just to find out there are only nannies present. But after all that hiking the hunter did, he just says "screw it" because he doesn't want to do another hike like that again, and he doesn't want to come away empty handed, so he shoots a nanny.
There are elite goat hunters out there who will shoot only mature billies, and are understanding that they may have to climb the mountain more than once to do so. But there are also alot of recreational goat hunters who are going to take a crack at the first goat that presents an opportunity. Goat hunters should have knowledge of how to tell the sex, but also need to use discipline and restraint.

[brotherjack]

total 100% BULLSHIT. I have shot more then a few sows, guided LOTS of sows.

it's 100% LEGAL. no cubs? no problem.

where do you get this shit?

Umm... read the short version of the long story I posted above. And then stop talking to me; you annoy the crap out of me.

[6616]

Considering the bulk of the southern end of the province is LEH with tons of units being underprescribed, I don't see why they would need to do anything more than what is already done. A nanny gets shot, the tag numbers drop. The unit goes from .5:1 to 1.5:1. Big deal! In my opinion, we have put too much focus on hunting and ignored the many many other reasons for the decline of goats in some Regions. When very very few goats are getting killed it isn't an issue of nanny versus billy it is much much bigger than that.


I don't think the AAH for goats is fully used in any region of the province by residents or guides.

In region 4 the combined res and non-res annual harvest averages 55.7% of the AAH,,,, and that AAH already has been modified if there has been an over harvest of nannys in previous years. AAH is calculated at 3.0 to 4.0 % of the population estimate for each MU depending on previous nanny harvest and other factors, this must be a viable scientific process.

This makes Dana's point a very valid point, how can this really be any more then a moderate conservation concern if we're only harvesting a little more then half the AAH?

[jml11]

Not all guides are professionals though ;)

I think part of the reason many nannies get shot by hunters is this: A hunter spots some goats from the valley below, too far away to ID them. So he does a grueling 6 hour hike and just about kills himself to get up there, just to find out there are only nannies present. But after all that hiking the hunter did, he just says "screw it" because he doesn't want to do another hike like that again, and he doesn't want to come away empty handed, so he shoots a nanny.
There are elite goat hunters out there who will shoot only mature billies, and are understanding that they may have to climb the mountain more than once to do so. But there are also alot of recreational goat hunters who are going to take a crack at the first goat that presents an opportunity. Goat hunters should have knowledge of how to tell the sex, but also need to use discipline and restraint.

I know a few people who have done exactly that. Climbed all the way up...damn it's a nanny...oh well bang! They have done the same thing and only saw small billies but shot them anyways. I asked the one guy why he shot the small billy (as he had shot 3-4 goats in his career already). And he said "I went all the way up and was coming back with something..." It was day one of a 7 day hunt...

[Browningmirage]

Not all guides are professionals though ;)

I think part of the reason many nannies get shot by hunters is this: A hunter spots some goats from the valley below, too far away to ID them. So he does a grueling 6 hour hike and just about kills himself to get up there, just to find out there are only nannies present. But after all that hiking the hunter did, he just says "screw it" because he doesn't want to do another hike like that again, and he doesn't want to come away empty handed, so he shoots a nanny.
There are elite goat hunters out there who will shoot only mature billies, and are understanding that they may have to climb the mountain more than once to do so. But there are also alot of recreational goat hunters who are going to take a crack at the first goat that presents an opportunity. Goat hunters should have knowledge of how to tell the sex, but also need to use discipline and restraint.

I would say thats pretty accurate.

[GoatGuy]

I know a few people who have done exactly that. Climbed all the way up...damn it's a nanny...oh well bang! They have done the same thing and only saw small billies but shot them anyways. I asked the one guy why he shot the small billy (as he had shot 3-4 goats in his career already). And he said "I went all the way up and was coming back with something..." It was day one of a 7 day hunt...

Nothing wrong with harvesting young billies. Probably the most sound harvest strategy, at least according to the research.

[MadCat]

I think that the problem is that alot of people don't care about the harvest strategy, they think that its legal to kill nannys so who cares. Theres such a push going on nowadays for harvest and harvest opportunity that people don't think of the long term affects, all they think about is killing. People have to realize that there is much more to hunting then just putting something on the ground,

[ElkMasterC]

People have to realize that there is much more to hunting then just putting something on the ground,



I think we'll get along quite well, noob.. ;-)

[ElkMasterC]

This makes Dana's point a very valid point, how can this really be any more then a moderate conservation concern if we're only harvesting a little more then half the AAH?


Just a WAG, but is it perhaps because the allowed harvest is way under-utilized in the first place?

And before you get ahead of yourself, is that factored in to the limits?

[Amphibious]

Umm... read the short version of the long story I posted above. And then stop talking to me; you annoy the crap out of me.

now now, Jebus says you're supposed to forgive us heathens. turn the other cheek now. not my fault I read the regs and have a spine.

[6616]

Just a WAG, but is it perhaps because the allowed harvest is way under-utilized in the first place?

And before you get ahead of yourself, is that factored in to the limits?

Under-utilization should lessen the consequences of nanny harvest and this proposed regulation since less nannys are harvested. I could see this being a concern if the AAH was fully utilized. Hunters (both res and non-res) shoot roughly 25% nannys, but since the AAH is only half utilized nanny harvest is really only 10 to 12 % of the AAH, that may be to many though, I don't really know, I guess we have to assume it is or they wouldn't be proposing the regulation.....right....?

Success rates are factored into the calculation for the number of authorizations so that takes care of un-used authorizations as well. It's population estimate x harvest rate divided by the success rate = number of authorizations. The step down for nanny over-harvest usually is accomplished by utilizing a lower harvest rate.

Why is the AAH under-utilized,,,, maybe because of access management in some cases, who knows for sure, another area where there are a lot of possibilities...?

[ElkMasterC]

6616:

I respect your opinion, and you put a lot of your personal time into the BCWF.
What do you think? Is it a good thing?

[ElkMasterC]

now now, Jebus says you're supposed to forgive us heathens. turn the other cheek now. not my fault I read the regs and have a spine.

Jebus sabes.

All Udders Milk the system.

[bayou]

Under-utilization should lessen the consequences of nanny harvest and this proposed regulation since less nannys are harvested. I could see this being a concern if the AAH was fully utilized. Hunters (both res and non-res) shoot roughly 25% nannys, but since the AAH is only half utilized nanny harvest is really only 10 to 12 % of the AAH, that may be to many though, I don't really know, I guess we have to assume it is or they wouldn't be proposing the regulation.....right....?

Success rates are factored into the calculation for the number of authorizations so that takes care of un-used authorizations as well. It's population estimate x harvest rate divided by the success rate = number of authorizations. The step down for nanny over-harvest usually is accomplished by utilizing a lower harvest rate.

Why is the AAH under-utilized,,,, maybe because of access management in some cases, who knows for sure, another area where there are a lot of possibilities...?
Its probably just like the sheep the numbers were to high to start with.(talking region 4)

[6616]

Its probably just like the sheep the numbers were to high to start with.(talking region 4)

You mean the AAH or the population estimate, either way you're probably right.

[6616]

6616:

I respect your opinion, and you put a lot of your personal time into the BCWF.
What do you think? Is it a good thing?

I don't think it's as big of a concern as they're letting on due to the low utilization of the AAH but if it works to accomplish the desired objective and doesn't reduce the utilization level even further it's a good thing. It would increase the conservation confidence in the management program if it actually works in the field.

There's no doubt that lowing the female harvest allows MOE to increase the LEH authorizations which could actually increase the utilization, however in the Kootenay for example there's so many authorizations and such a low utilization level that I don't really expect more authorizations would actually result in a higher kill. I think we may have sort of "maxed" out on people wanting to hunt goats.

I support anything that increases the confidence level of the management program as long as there aren't side repercussions like lowering the utilization level, or being overly onerous on hunters.

[6616]

Its probably just like the sheep the numbers were to high to start with.(talking region 4)


I think F&W has a reasonably good handle on sheep and goat populations in Region 4 thanks mostly to the Columbia Basin F&W Compensation guys. The biggest issue with sheep is that the AAH is based on entire EK herd, even those unhuntable sheep in the Nat Park and on the EV mine properties which in my mind is just flat out wrong.

With goats, the "experts" are beginning to question the current harvest rates being used of 3.0 to 4.0 %. They're probably going to recommend that the harvest rate used to calculate AAH be lowered sometime in the near future. Due to the under-utilization in Region 4 this will not likely change anything since we're actually only harvesting at about 2.0 to 2.5% right now.

In his latest report Kim Poole actually said the harvest levels could be safely increased in several MUs, but that's also unlikely to happen either since they're currently issuing 2600 goat authorizations with an AAH of 300 goats and only killing 200 goats. This really makes me wonder if more authorizations would result in more kills, I think it's possible we may have maxed out on goat hunters.

The above out of a total regional population estimate of 8600 Mountain goats.

[rocksteady]

I like it.

I think it is designed to increase the awareness around the nanny shooting issue. Guys will know they can get away with it, but the very idea that it will be illegal to do so is going to force guys with ethics regarding the letter of the law (I dare point out rocksteady here) to shoot a billy.

I'm not saying rocksteady was wrong to shoot a nanny. It's legal. But the point of the issue is that too many nannies are being shot, and this does result in population decrease and reduced opportunity. If the regulations had stated as the proposal says, I am certain rocksteady would have more than hesitated over pulling the trigger on a nanny in the company of other goats (although I am not exactly sure what his exact hunting situation was).

Since you directly named me in this scenario I will respond as to what happened. If you read the whole story it should be there..When I shot my goat, we had glassed it and determined it to be a mature (non kid) goat. We did suspect it may have been a nanny but could not be 100% sure, however decided to harvest it as, you stated it was legal and no evidence of kids or any other goat being in the vicinity. The other goat (billy) did not show itself for almost another hour.

By rereading the linked proposal, it would not have changed the outcome though....The nanny was not observed in a family unit/nursery unit....

If the proposal would increase populations, sure I am for it, if we are under harvesting, will making more strict regulations entice more people to apply for/hunt the goats??? I doubt it..

[behemoth]

I.

There's no doubt that lowing the female harvest allows MOE to increase the LEH authorizations which could actually increase the utilization, however in the Kootenay for example there's so many authorizations and such a low utilization level that I don't really expect more authorizations would actually result in a higher kill. I think we may have sort of "maxed" out on people wanting to hunt goats.



Why is this area even on LEH, then? Shouldn't they move it to GOS?

[PGK]

6616, try to remember this isn't about region 4, it's about the whole province :smile: AAH kind of falls out in goats because they are so vulnerable to overharvest, especially of nannies. You will always see management erring on the side of caution regarding AAH and number of LEH when it comes to goats. One bad recruitment year and a new access road could move a population of 75 goats down to 50 goats and it's on the border of being closed to hunting...

And rock I think a sidebar to the discussion about the reg change is that if it works, and less nannies are harvested, you will probably see more units, especially in 4 and 6, come off LEH, which will bring more opportunity to the table....increased populations and more opportunity.

[6616]

Why is this area even on LEH, then? Shouldn't they move it to GOS?

We've been asking that for years.

[6616]

6616, try to remember this isn't about region 4, it's about the whole province :smile: .

I realize that Chris, I'm just trying to use current data to make a point and provide examples of why these things occur, and Region 4 is the only region I have the data for. I also suspect the situation in most other regions is very similar.

[PGK]

Is my name pgk? or pgc? I forget.

[6616]

Is my name pgk? or pgc? I forget.

"Kris" then, I'm sorry.....Tinney

[GoatGuy]

6616, try to remember this isn't about region 4, it's about the whole province :smile: AAH kind of falls out in goats because they are so vulnerable to overharvest, especially of nannies. You will always see management erring on the side of caution regarding AAH and number of LEH when it comes to goats. One bad recruitment year and a new access road could move a population of 75 goats down to 50 goats and it's on the border of being closed to hunting...

What do you base this conclusion on?

This entire response makes very little sense.

[PGK]

What do you base this conclusion on?

This entire response makes very little sense.

What's your malfuncton, rico? You have issue with a random scenario that popped outta my head? Not feasible? Maybe drag your white coat pencil neck outta the lab and do some real biology :lol:

Numbers aren't as reliable a tool for goat populations as they are for other ungulates. There's a lot less stability. You know that, I know that. Again, what's your malfunction?

[dana]

I say we should just let hunters hunt. Let the numbers fall where they may. The MOE has a good control on the numbers and manage ultra conservatively based on nanny harvest. Why should we knock guys for busting their hump to crawl up a mountain and actually harvest a goat? In the good ol' days, guys didn't hunt these critters for the glory of a few inches of horn. They hunted them because they liked the way they tasted. The goat numbers in the southern end of the province did not decline due to over harvest of nannies. They declined because we think it's super cool for the economy to have heli-skiing companys have their drop zones right where the goats live. They declined because we think the money the Alberta boys spend here when they sled is very important. You can not blame hunting when harvest success levels are pathetically low. The ministry is just looking for a smoking gun, not unlike the Mountain Caribou Strategy and logging. It is something that makes the ministry feel important and gives them a good image in the media. But when it comes down to it, it does SFA for the animals.

[GoatGuy]

What's your malfuncton, rico? You have issue with a random scenario that popped outta my head? Not feasible? Maybe drag your white coat pencil neck outta the lab and do some real biology :lol:

Numbers aren't as reliable a tool for goat populations as they are for other ungulates. There's a lot less stability. You know that, I know that. Again, what's your malfunction?


So we're managing goats across the province based on one year of bad recruitment that we'd never, ever know about and we're possibly having a road open that year as well that we didn't know would open and basing our LEH authorizations on that.

Maybe that's the new procedure manual for managing all species:

"Manage it as though you're going to have a bad year of recruitment and roads will miraculously pop up all over the place just before hunting season starts."

Wait a second, that sounds familiar...........................

[PGK]

Putting words in my mouth. Smarten up! Stochasticity dictates caution.

[GoatGuy]

Putting words in my mouth. Smarten up! Stochasticity dictates caution.

Of course it does that's why you have conservative harvest rates and hunting opportunities can and are changed based on harvest.

When you let go 10 LEH authorizations per year for 20 years and there isn't a single goat shot, what do you think will happen when you let 5 LEH authorizations go?

Hint: This isn't a trick question..................

[GoatGuy]

I think that the problem is that alot of people don't care about the harvest strategy, they think that its legal to kill nannys so who cares.

Agreed, it's education more than anything else.

Outfitter killed 2 nannies side by side this year - don't think he has any idea what kind of impact that will have on quota/leh opportunities in his area in the future.

[dana]

I don't have my stack of mulitple years of LEH regs in front of me right now, but I believe in 08 my son's subunit had 6 tags allocated. He killed a nanny. In 09 it went down to 1 tag allocated. This is in a subunit where they see an average of 1 goat every 5 years killed. Do you think the ministry is being ultra conservative, or do you think my son and I tipped the scales of imbalance and the goats will never recover again??? BTW, there was a heli-drop pad for the local heli-skiing company within a hundred metres of where he killed his 3 year old nanny. And the drainage right adjacent to us saw a bunch of dumbass Albertans get killed this last year in sledding accidents.

[bayou]

[quote=6616;567081]You mean the AAH or the population estimate, either way you're probably right.
Both

[6616]

I don't have my stack of mulitple years of LEH regs in front of me right now, but I believe in 08 my son's subunit had 6 tags allocated. He killed a nanny. In 09 it went down to 1 tag allocated. This is in a subunit where they see an average of 1 goat every 5 years killed. Do you think the ministry is being ultra conservative, or do you think my son and I tipped the scales of imbalance and the goats will never recover again??? BTW, there was a heli-drop pad for the local heli-skiing company within a hundred metres of where he killed his 3 year old nanny. And the drainage right adjacent to us saw a bunch of dumbass Albertans get killed this last year in sledding accidents.


I've seen a similar scenario play out like that before. The sub-unit is probably small or has a modest goat population and F&W are content to see the five year harvest maintained at only one or two goats over the five-year allocation period regardless of what the calculated AAH is. So when one or two get shot authorizations drop dramatically for the rest of the five-year allocation period. A nanny harvest could also add to the possibility of a overly-conservative reaction, but it's more likely that the sub-unit just has a very small desired harvest. I would guess authorizations will stay at 1 for that sub-unit through 2011 and will go back up to 6 again in 2012 (the first year of anew allocation period), but will again ratchet down quickly if/when goats are actually killed.

I hate to suggest it, but I've also saw scenarios where AAH appears to be maintained artificially higher then it should be just to ensure non-resident quota is always available. In this case very low numbers of resident authorizations are let out by manipulating success rates, or other restrictive measures are put in place, to ensure resident harvest does not surpass the sustainability level which is actually lower than the AAH. The usual tactic is to apply minimum success rates of 30 to 50% so no more then 2 or 3 permits are available to kill a single goat, which is most often insufficient to allow reaching the calculated AAH. Since real success rates are often 5 to 10% or even less this serves very effectivelly to restrict and reduce resident harvest while maintaining the non-resident quota.

[bayou]

I don't have my stack of mulitple years of LEH regs in front of me right now, but I believe in 08 my son's subunit had 6 tags allocated. He killed a nanny. In 09 it went down to 1 tag allocated. This is in a subunit where they see an average of 1 goat every 5 years killed. Do you think the ministry is being ultra conservative, or do you think my son and I tipped the scales of imbalance and the goats will never recover again??? BTW, there was a heli-drop pad for the local heli-skiing company within a hundred metres of where he killed his 3 year old nanny. And the drainage right adjacent to us saw a bunch of dumbass Albertans get killed this last year in sledding accidents.
This would be interesting to know if the harvesting of a nanny was the reason for the tag allocation to drop from 6 to 1. I'm guessing this area doesn't have a high goat population to start with.

[GoatGuy]

I don't have my stack of mulitple years of LEH regs in front of me right now, but I believe in 08 my son's subunit had 6 tags allocated. He killed a nanny. In 09 it went down to 1 tag allocated. This is in a subunit where they see an average of 1 goat every 5 years killed. Do you think the ministry is being ultra conservative, or do you think my son and I tipped the scales of imbalance and the goats will never recover again??? BTW, there was a heli-drop pad for the local heli-skiing company within a hundred metres of where he killed his 3 year old nanny. And the drainage right adjacent to us saw a bunch of dumbass Albertans get killed this last year in sledding accidents.

Tell you the truth nobody knows what a sustainable harvest rate is, including or excluding nanny kill. That's a big part of the problem.

The nanny harvest would have had something to do with it. A couple of MUs had some inventory work done last year, when there was money for that, and goats were way down.

[Kody94]

I don't have my stack of mulitple years of LEH regs in front of me right now, but I believe in 08 my son's subunit had 6 tags allocated. He killed a nanny. In 09 it went down to 1 tag allocated. This is in a subunit where they see an average of 1 goat every 5 years killed. Do you think the ministry is being ultra conservative, or do you think my son and I tipped the scales of imbalance and the goats will never recover again??? BTW, there was a heli-drop pad for the local heli-skiing company within a hundred metres of where he killed his 3 year old nanny. And the drainage right adjacent to us saw a bunch of dumbass Albertans get killed this last year in sledding accidents.

They probably just figger that if a Dana is applying, stuff starts dyin'! They're scared you'll throw the projected success rate way off by actually killing stuff. ;)

Cheers
4Ster

[bayou]

Tell you the truth nobody knows what a sustainable harvest rate is, including or excluding nanny kill. That's a big part of the problem.

The nanny harvest would have had something to do with it. A couple of MUs had some inventory work done last year, when there was money for that, and goats were way down.
Huh, interesting goats were way down, now Im guessing you mean in numbers and this isnt just one of your little games and you mean way down on the mountain.
To bad not enough money to check out more MUs.
Nobody knows what a sustainable harvest rate is, so its all just a guessing game, who really losses out here the animals or the hunter.

[GoatGuy]

Huh, interesting goats were way down, now Im guessing you mean in numbers and this isnt just one of your little games and you mean way down on the mountain.
To bad not enough money to check out more MUs.
Nobody knows what a sustainable harvest rate is, so its all just a guessing game, who really losses out here the animals or the hunter.

Yes, in numbers, not down the mountain - good guess! Consider me impressed.

In your neck of the woods they have a pretty good idea because they've been milking columbia basin's tit for years.

Both lose out. More money from hunting means more money for wildlife. Over-harvest means less hunting opportunity and less money for wildlife. Pretty fundamental stuff.

[ElkMasterC]

The goat numbers in the southern end of the province did not decline due to over harvest of nannies. They declined because we think it's super cool for the economy to have heli-skiing companys have their drop zones right where the goats live. They declined because we think the money the Alberta boys spend here when they sled is very important.



BTW, there was a heli-drop pad for the local heli-skiing company within a hundred metres of where he killed his 3 year old nanny. And the drainage right adjacent to us saw a bunch of dumbass Albertans get killed this last year in sledding accidents.





in 08 my son's subunit had 6 tags allocated. He killed a nanny. In 09 it went down to 1 tag allocated.

Before I get into "My son's subunit".... it's a provincial resource, but I know what you meant, even though your subconscious lays claim to areas, see "Fisher-Dude vs ElkmasterC 1999-2009 et al"

Do you read your posts before you hit the "Submit" button?

So your premise is these dumb-ass Albertans scare off goats with helicopters, but you told your kid to shoot a nanny goat within spitting range of a heli-Pad.
I'm sorry. What's your point?
Signed. Ignorant British Columbian.

[PGK]

EMC, helicopters mess goats up, a little, depending on stuff. Some work being done on the drect impacts currently. Clearly, disturbing them in the winter can't be good.

Dana, you're blind if you think shooting a nanny in there didn't have a direct impact on the number of allocations the following year. You know it did. Maybe next time you'll show some restraint and get the kid a billy? It's not like either of you ca't get it done, we all know you've got the gears to do it. Top your boy's nanny with maybe one other in that unit (heoretical) and a survey that showed less goats than they thought (theoretical) and you're looking at one tag instead of six. Management suggests goat populations with less than 50 individuals should not be harvested from...

[ElkMasterC]

EMC, helicopters mess goats up, a little, depending on stuff.


Absolutely not my point, but carry on PGKid.
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

[PGK]

Absolutely not my point, but carry on PGKid.
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

My point was dana has a point about helicopters, and you seemed to be discrediting that. What was your point?

[GoatGuy]

EMC, helicopters mess goats up, a little, depending on stuff. Some work being done on the drect impacts currently. Clearly, disturbing them in the winter can't be good.


Has 0 to do with est population and aah. Also some managers will cut the harvest rate back in those areas.

Still does not deal with the goats and the hunt though - outside of this discussion.

[PGK]

Helicopters and skiiers have nothing to do with pop estimates when I've talked to skiiers who have literally chased goats off a flippin cliff (like....dead) by skiing too close to them? They didn't know what they were dong, and it wasn't intentional, but it sure directly affected the population estimate.....

Edit: EMC, when the heck did I ever say I was good at anything? Dana and mark say it for me

[ARC]

Management suggests goat populations with less than 50 individuals should not be harvested from...

I often wonder how low a goat population could be and still support a season. One MU in the WK only has an estimated 30 goats, and according to one of the biologists, they haven't done an inventory in several years...they still let a few LEH authorizations (3-6 I believe) out for that zone. I know another MU has an estimated 45 animals and a few subunits are right around 50 as well.

[jml11]

EMC, helicopters mess goats up, a little, depending on stuff. Some work being done on the drect impacts currently. Clearly, disturbing them in the winter can't be good.



I think the people doing this research might be messing with the goats a little bit too ;). I know I've never been the same since associating with them :tongue:

[BCrams]

I'm sure I can add a few interesting comments regarding helicopters, and impacts by logging, predators etc on mountain goats. Probably quite the impact as compared to hunter impact.

[Kody94]

??????

Did you read my excerpts of his last 2 posts?

READ them!

They are contradictory.

I DO agree with the Nanny Killer condemnation though.
If you're THAT good, as you say you are, be selective.

Holy crap Kid.....read the damn post.

I caught that, but they're not really contradictory. Different time of the year for one. He clearly meant that the heli use in the area might be the reason why there are so few goats (combined with the 'bertans that harass goats and loose slides upon themeselves)....not why there are no goats (which would obviously mean no season period).

[ElkMasterC]

I read that heli's scare off goats, that hunting is not an issue, and let the chips fall where they may.
Oh, and his kid shot a nanny within sight of a heli pad.
You didn't get what I said from that?

[GoatGuy]

Helicopters and skiiers have nothing to do with pop estimates when I've talked to skiiers who have literally chased goats off a flippin cliff (like....dead) by skiing too close to them? They didn't know what they were dong, and it wasn't intentional, but it sure directly affected the population estimate.....

One goat won't be missed on an aerial flight. Unless it's reported, which it won't be, it will have little to no effect on the pop estimate. At best they'll find a bear or wolverine snacking on it during the winter/spring and consider it natural mortality.

Still has nothing to do with hunting.

[GoatGuy]

I often wonder how low a goat population could be and still support a season. One MU in the WK only has an estimated 30 goats, and according to one of the biologists, they haven't done an inventory in several years...they still let a few LEH authorizations (3-6 I believe) out for that zone. I know another MU has an estimated 45 animals and a few subunits are right around 50 as well.

Part of it depends on the habitat.

If the population is small and on 'an island' it will be managed differently than an area where the manager has broken things up into thousands of sub-units in areas of contiguous habitat. Part of the problem with goats is they are poor colonizers.

[dana]

Elkmaster,
My point is they are calling hunters the smoking gun when it comes to lower goat populations but the harvest is soooo damn low, hunters are having little to no impact on the populations. Have you seen the numbers? Region 3 has some of the most pathetic stats out there. Region 3 is big. On average 180-220 tags and a success rate as low as 10 for the entire Region. Wow! Even if all 10 of those goats were nannies, which they ain't, you would have a very very low impact on the herd. The truth of the matter is the ministry doesn't have the balls to deal with the real impacts that the heli-skiing and sledding industries have on goat populations.
BTW, if I worried about helipad locations, I wouldn't be goat hunting in Northern Region 3. Every mountain that has goats has numerous drop sights.

PGK,
Didn't I just hint that my son's nanny harvest was a dirrect result in the tags dropping? But really who the F*** cares. The subunits are sooo damn small and constrictive, just put in for another one at 0.5:1 or 1:1 odds and you'll still get drawn. Not one sole is effected by the tags dropping. I had a tag this year so did another family member and several friends. Not one goat was killed by any one I knew. On average out of 10 subunits, only 2 goats get killed. Lots of tags with a lot of people not even bothering to hunt. If you think it's easy to kill a billy, you don't know jackshit about these units. Just seeing a goat is normally an acheivement in itself. Getting one killed, is a well earned trophy. Regardless if it is a billy or a nanny. Why should we worry and create a bunch of new rules that will have zero impact on the real issues at play here? Let hunters hunt and harvest what they will and let the managers play their ultra conservative game and keep the government coffers full with all the money made off of useless LEH draws.

[Gateholio]

I'm sure I can add a few interesting comments regarding helicopters, and impacts by logging, predators etc on mountain goats. Probably quite the impact as compared to hunter impact.

Please do comment.

Lots of heli skiing around here, it's an interesting topic.

[PGK]

I think the people doing this research might be messing with the goats a little bit too ;). I know I've never been the same since associating with them :tongue:

I'm telling :tongue:

[GoatGuy]

Please do comment.

Lots of heli skiing around here, it's an interesting topic.

there's a bunch of research out of Alaska and some out of BC as well. Google should help you out.

[PGK]

there's a bunch of research out of Alaska and some out of BC as well. Google should help you out.

Or rams could man up and post his three and a half cents :mrgreen:

[Rubicon500]

For all the goat experts out there, why even have LEH and not GOS when the odds are below 1 ? There are areas that have been below 1 for many years, no reason why they couldnt GOS it. Take a look at 4-38 for example, it basically is GOS as you get drawn no matter what, but save the paper work and go GOS. There are no shortage of goats in there either.

[GoatGuy]

Or Greg could man up and post his three and a half cents :mrgreen:

everybody's got a story to tell about goats.

[GoatGuy]

For all the goat experts out there, why even have LEH and not GOS when the odds are below 1 ? There are areas that have been below 1 for many years, no reason why they couldnt GOS it. Take a look at 4-38 for example, it basically is GOS as you get drawn no matter what, but save the paper work and go GOS. There are no shortage of goats in there either.

There aren't any goats shot in the GOS across the lake either. Don't get me started.

[ElkMasterC]

Minimizing female harvest of mountain goats has been identified as a conservation concern by
the Ministry of Environment. High harvest rates of female mountain goats have and will
continue to result in some areas being closed to hunting in B.C. unless regulations to reduce the
female harvest can be developed. This regulation proposal will enhance hunting opportunities by
minimizing female harvest and thus the necessity to restrict/close mountain goat hunting seasons.
This regulation does not protect all female mountain goats as a solitary female mountain goat, or
a female mountain goat within a group of goats that does not contain kids, would still be legal to
harvest.

It is one concern that they are addressing.
Does anyone have stats on how heli's impact goat harvest, breeding, etc?
A buddy and I looked into starting a guiding bidness a year ago, and the regulations were up the a$$. To start a heli business it must be formidable.
So to automatically blame Heli's , when you yourself stated that you saw, and killed, a female very close to one, and ignore other problems caught my attention. This is one possible brick in the wall.
Why discredit one brick? There are several problems. I get the statement that goats are under-harvested. I get that. No-one knows everything, except Fisher Dude and Devilbear, and no-one else pretends to. Well, maybe Huntwriter, but he's kinda helpful.
Why not fight the battles we might win?
Why not control the things we CAN control?
If goats are wide open to people that will ACTUALLY hunt them, then why argue? You have your goats.
Kill some damn Billies, FFS, and get them off our backs so they can go shoot down some Choppers.

[BCrams]

everybody's got a story to tell about goats.

You can say that again :-D

[dana]

Here's another one to add to the pot. It is common knowledge that goat hunting in my own backyard might be a thing of the past pretty darn soon. Been told that by several people that actually really are in the know. Our family has hunted and killed goats in these mountains since the the 1920's. It is part of our heritage. My kid's great great grandfather hunted goats for meat and for the enjoyment of the hunt. Not for horns or bragging rights or anything that we 'modern' goat hunters think is important. With this background, is it wrong for me to want my son to take part in that same heritage? Might be the only chance he gets. Really is it that harmfull that a 11 year old killed his first goat in the tradition of his great great grandfather in the very same mountains?

[GoatGuy]

Minimizing female harvest of mountain goats has been identified as a conservation concern by
the Ministry of Environment. High harvest rates of female mountain goats have and will
continue to result in some areas being closed to hunting in B.C. unless regulations to reduce the
female harvest can be developed. This regulation proposal will enhance hunting opportunities by
minimizing female harvest and thus the necessity to restrict/close mountain goat hunting seasons.
This regulation does not protect all female mountain goats as a solitary female mountain goat, or
a female mountain goat within a group of goats that does not contain kids, would still be legal to
harvest.

It is one concern that they are addressing.
Does anyone have stats on how heli's impact goat harvest, breeding, etc?
A buddy and I looked into starting a guiding bidness a year ago, and the regulations were up the a$$. To start a heli business it must be formidable.
So to automatically blame Heli's , when you yourself stated that you saw, and killed, a female very close to one, and ignore other problems caught my attention. This is one possible brick in the wall.
Why discredit one brick? There are several problems. I get the statement that goats are under-harvested. I get that. No-one knows everything, except Fisher Dude and Devilbear, and no-one else pretends to. Well, maybe Huntwriter, but he's kinda helpful.
Why not fight the battles we might win?
Why not control the things we CAN control?
If goats are wide open to people that will ACTUALLY hunt them, then why argue? You have your goats.
Kill some damn Billies, FFS, and get them off our backs so they can go shoot down some Choppers.

Don't forget to cite it if you're quoting otherwise you could get your pp slapped.

[dana]

Elkmaster,
Mike Wiegles heliskiing has been in business long before they knew the impacts helicopters have on mountain caribou and mountain goats. If you have any idea how big of an area Wiegles flies, you will know that it is impossible to avoid any evidence of their helipads when hunting goats.

[ElkMasterC]

And the situation 90 years ago is relevant to now in what way?

You're talking like a group of people that want special preference for being here first.
Ignore the rules, regulations, harvest stats, we'll have our meat because we were here first.
It doesn't matter about Sustainable Numbers, or sharing the resource. it's about dibs.
Thank GOD we don't have that kind of thing in this country in this day and age.


*watch the language.

[ElkMasterC]

Don't forget to cite it if you're quoting otherwise you could get your pp slapped.


Maybe I like that kind of thing.

Is Salma Hayek busy?

[dana]

I didn't ignore anything. I did the research. The harvest stats show it is not an issue as harvest rates are pathetically low. The LEH comes in the mail and it is good for ANY GOAT. So legally, we were well within our right to shoot ANY GOAT. Soooo, where is your problem? The fact that a 11 year old got done what the bulk of the Region 3 goat hunters can't do, he killed a goat? The joy of the hunt plays a significant role in WHY I hunt. Having the family heritage of goat hunting in the area, having everything play together on a highcountry stalk with my son, having to work our asses off packin it out, my son learning what backpack hunting is all about, the list goes on and on why this hunt is one of the most memorable hunts I've ever been a part of. I am looking forward to getting that goat back from the taxidermist as it was a Trophy to both my son and I.

[GoatGuy]

Maybe I like that kind of thing.

Is Salma Hayek busy?

yep, and I doubt you get a choice with the replacement.

[GoatGuy]

I didn't ignore anything. I did the research. The harvest stats show it is not an issue as harvest rates are pathetically low. The LEH comes in the mail and it is good for ANY GOAT. So legally, we were well within our right to shoot ANY GOAT. Soooo, where is your problem? The fact that a 11 year old got done what the bulk of the Region 3 goat hunters can't do, he killed a goat? The joy of the hunt plays a significant role in WHY I hunt. Having the family heritage of goat hunting in the area, having everything play together on a highcountry stalk with my son, having to work our asses off packin it out, my son learning what backpack hunting is all about, the list goes on and on why this hunt is one of the most memorable hunts I've ever been a part of. I am looking forward to getting that goat back from the taxidermist as it was a Trophy to both my son and I.

the research from caw ridge, which is debatle, basically indicates no female harvest for populations under 100 if I recall correctly.

Not arguing with the rest of it - just my opinion but this should all be based on numbers.

[dana]

Kill some damn Billies, FFS, and get them off our backs so they can go shoot down some Choppers.

Who says we haven't killed billies?

[ElkMasterC]

My point here is that if it is perceived that taking nannies, especially large "herd" nannies is a problem, then we, as the Hunter population, should do our best not to harvest them.
It is a multi-faceted issue, and there are many threats to goat populations,and that we should do our part.
Can we agree on that?
I got wayyyy too deep into this as it is.

[dana]

the research from caw ridge, which is debatle, basically indicates no female harvest for populations under 100 if I recall correctly.

Not arguing with the rest of it - just my opinion but this should all be based on numbers.

Then they should close er down if no nanny harvest is acceptable in low herd numbers. If you hand out the tags, you have to accept nannies will be harvested. Look at how many tags they are handing out for all the subunits combined. Whose to blame? The hunter that kills a nanny or the ministry for handing out a shitload of tags just to fill the government coffers?

[GoatGuy]

Then they should close er down if no nanny harvest is acceptable in low herd numbers. If you hand out the tags, you have to accept nannies will be harvested. Look at how many tags they are handing out for all the subunits combined. Whose to blame? The hunter that kills a nanny or the ministry for handing out a shitload of tags just to fill the government coffers?
not disagreeing. I think it's all about education, but that's just me. If that don't work then change the regs or make it a 1 in 10 on nannies, or whatever needs to be done.

[dana]

My point here is that if it is perceived that taking nannies, especially large "herd" nannies is a problem, then we, as the Hunter population, should do our best not to harvest them.
It is a multi-faceted issue, and there are many threats to goat populations,and that we should do our part.
Can we agree on that?
I got wayyyy too deep into this as it is.

1 young nanny is not a large 'herd' nanny. Some studies show that harvesting the young nannies actually helps the herd. But, we'll leave those for the experts.
And like I said before, who said we haven't been targeting the billys. I've had 8 tags in 15 years and I have been very very selective.

[PGK]

Link me a study where harvesting nannies is good for the population. Serious. I want to read it.

[dana]

Tinney,
When are you going to accept the fact that Fish and Goats don't mix? :) When you actually kill a goat instead of talk about how others should do it, then I'll send ya some links. Until then, you don't have a fish to fry.

[PGK]

Steve, link me or I'm calling bee ess. I'm a fish guy, but you can thank the program for a hefty dose of the dark side. I've got more than passing interest. Anyone worth the air they breathe never stops trying to educate themselves.

[Fisher-Dude]

Here's another one to add to the pot. It is common knowledge that goat hunting in my own backyard might be a thing of the past pretty darn soon. Been told that by several people that actually really are in the know. Our family has hunted and killed goats in these mountains since the the 1920's. It is part of our heritage. My kid's great great grandfather hunted goats for meat and for the enjoyment of the hunt. Not for horns or bragging rights or anything that we 'modern' goat hunters think is important. With this background, is it wrong for me to want my son to take part in that same heritage? Might be the only chance he gets. Really is it that harmfull that a 11 year old killed his first goat in the tradition of his great great grandfather in the very same mountains?

I killed a bear this year (first one ever despite carrying a tag for 25 years), and part of the reason was the threat to my continued ability to kill spring bear from the anti camp. Our heritage gets threatened, us traditional guys decide we better do what we can to carry OUR traditions on, in OUR traditional territories. There's no conservation concern in the big picture, so just let us hunt, FFS. :-?

[jml11]

I'm telling :tongue:

No worries, they love me! :cool:

[jml11]

I'm sure I can add a few interesting comments regarding helicopters, and impacts by logging, predators etc on mountain goats. Probably quite the impact as compared to hunter impact.

No posting on my thread until we get your latest deer story! I will accept a personal email with photos :mrgreen:.

[horshur]

It is apparent that funding for inventories must be a problem so my suggestion is moot however I will say it anyways.....if inventories were convenient for public record or even conspicuous it may be more effective.

If as part of the LEH regs it stated the actual population estimates of the goats and the general male to female ratios of that zone, that would be education.

The little write-up in the regs is too general.

Years ago I used to fish a hole here in the river for Dollies...when I read how old the fish would be in order to meet the mm's limit it shocked me!!! I rarely fish them now.

If it were common knowledge that a particular sub unit had 50 goats and only 5 may be mature billies........the gravity of the situation would be clearer.

Frankly this sort of stuff should be the content of the CORE testing not just just the identifying a legal animal but explaining why!!!

Years ago the BC Ministry of health put out a BCHealthGuide by Healthwise incorporated. This is a very dogeared and tattered reference book at our house...it is like an encylopedea of common household health concerns ect.

It would benificial to all hunters for a similiar such reference book that in breaf outlines the methods to the madness....Resident hunters need to know more about the science and the why's...we need to know more about inventories and the methods to attain them and wether they are actualy being attained.

We really could use a refresher on food chains as well....and how that relates to inventories on winter range.......predator numbers....disease.

I could go on and on.....

In my oppinion if more of us actualy knew somthing. Better descision would be made on all levels with more support.

[GoatGuy]

It is apparent that funding for inventories must be a problem so my suggestion is moot however I will say it anyways.....if inventories were convenient for public record or even conspicuous it may be more effective.

If as part of the LEH regs it stated the actual population estimates of the goats and the general male to female ratios of that zone, that would be education.

The little write-up in the regs is too general.

Years ago I used to fish a hole here in the river for Dollies...when I read how old the fish would be in order to meet the mm's limit it shocked me!!! I rarely fish them now.

If it were common knowledge that a particular sub unit had 50 goats and only 5 may be mature billies........the gravity of the situation would be clearer.

Frankly this sort of stuff should be the content of the CORE testing not just just the identifying a legal animal but explaining why!!!

Years ago the BC Ministry of health put out a BCHealthGuide by Healthwise incorporated. This is a very dogeared and tattered reference book at our house...it is like an encylopedea of common household health concerns ect.

It would benificial to all hunters for a similiar such reference book that in breaf outlines the methods to the madness....Resident hunters need to know more about the science and the why's...we need to know more about inventories and the methods to attain them and wether they are actualy being attained.

We really could use a refresher on food chains as well....and how that relates to inventories on winter range.......predator numbers....disease.

I could go on and on.....

In my oppinion if more of us actualy knew somthing. Better descision would be made on all levels with more support.

well put.....

[PGK]

Amen horshur. At large, the hunting community does not know as much about the why of things as it should. Most of the 'common knowledge' out there is barbershop or barroom talk.

But at what point does trying to teach people everything become a stopping point for recruitment?

[Kody94]

Years ago the BC Ministry of health put out a BCHealthGuide by Healthwise incorporated. This is a very dogeared and tattered reference book at our house...it is like an encylopedea of common household health concerns ect.

It would benificial to all hunters for a similiar such reference book that in breaf outlines the methods to the madness....Resident hunters need to know more about the science and the why's...we need to know more about inventories and the methods to attain them and wether they are actualy being attained.

We really could use a refresher on food chains as well....and how that relates to inventories on winter range.......predator numbers....disease.

In my oppinion if more of us actualy knew somthing. Better descision would be made on all levels with more support.

Excellent points Horshur! That healthguide is well used in my house too...very good idea.

[jml11]

But at what point does trying to teach people everything become a stopping point for recruitment?

Maybe everyone should have to take the Wildlife Management course at UNBC on top of or in lieu of CORE. At least that will give them some idea of the how's and the why's. ;-)

In all seriousness though, auditing courses like this wouldn't be a bad idea if people are really interested in understanding a bit more about some the dynamics of game management. Everybody is free for 3 months in the spring aren't they?

[PGK]

You would wish that on poor MG!? Just remember...WWMGD? :lol:

[jml11]

You would wish that on poor MG!? Just remember...WWMGD? :lol:

I'm sure he would love it, heck let's throw in Populations and Communities as well...or wait does he still teach that one?

[PGK]

You can break the news, ok? :biggrin: 2-way anova will really recruit hunters :lol:

[GoatGuy]

Maybe everyone should have to take the Wildlife Management course at UNBC on top of or in lieu of CORE. At least that will give them some idea of the how's and the why's. ;-)

In all seriousness though, auditing courses like this wouldn't be a bad idea if people are really interested in understanding a bit more about some the dynamics of game management. Everybody is free for 3 months in the spring aren't they?

I will tell you exactly what will happen. The individuals will sit in on the class and later will still disagree with what Gillingham has to say.

I've seen it a couple times in formal settings. Lay out the data, real world examples (even with pictures) and then open up the flood gates: Here comes the rhetoric. The funniest to date: "I just don't believe you or this voodo magic".

[jml11]

I will tell you exactly what will happen. The individuals will sit in on the class and later will still disagree with what Gillingham has to say.

I've seen it a couple times in formal settings. Lay out the data, real world examples (even with pictures) and then open up the flood gates: Here comes the rhetoric. The funniest to date: "I just don't believe you or this voodo magic".


I hear ya, this even happens when there are aspiring biologists paying the tuition fee to learn the material. When I took his course, we spent the better part of a day discussing the whole GOS calf season and well the whole Omineca moose strategy for that matter as there were many naysayers in the class. Afterwards, many still said...I still don't get it/ agree with it/buy it...what have you.

Two things I still remember from that class because he said them all the time:

"the best way to manage a population is to target the woman and children"

and "in many cases wildife management is actually people management"

But this thread is supposed to be about goats...can you hi-jack your own thread?

[GoatGuy]

I hear ya, this even happens when there are aspiring biologists paying the tuition fee to learn the material. When I took his course, we spent the better part of a day discussing the whole GOS calf season and well the whole Omineca moose strategy for that matter as there were many naysayers in the class. Afterwards, many still said...I still don't get it/ agree with it/buy it...what have you.

Two things I still remember from that class because he said them all the time:

"the best way to manage a population is to target the woman and children"

and "in many cases wildife management is actually people management"

But this thread is supposed to be about goats...can you hi-jack your own thread?


People management, that's what it's all about.

I'd recommend anybody who wants to get into wildlife management take a diploma for that and a PHD in sociology/psychology.

[GoatGuy]

You can break the news, ok? :biggrin: 2-way anova will really recruit hunters :lol:
..................................


I think the biologists stats are just like yours B.S.

[huntwriter]

...when the heck did I ever say I was good at anything?

In about every second or third post on this forum.:wink:

[PGK]

Thanks for contributing to the discussion vohinger, you're really helping things along.

jml, as you know, MG takes a pretty good census of where the sentiment of the group lies....I think he told me that around the time you would have been in 413, the large majority were against hunting....which makes explaining your first quote even more difficult. Maybe it was slightly before your time?

Wildlife management is people management! :lol: It's like a drum-beat in our heads :eek:

[huntwriter]

Thanks for contributing to the discussion vohinger, you're really helping things along.

Glad I could help.:mrgreen: BTW- It's "Vohringer" I don't care what you say about me as long as you spell my name right.:wink: