Region 8 2010 - 2011 regulations submissions

[Fisher-Dude]

Here's what is on the table in Victoria for next year's regulations:

1.) Bighorn new LEH 8-07 and 8-02 any ram Sep 1 - 30

2.) Cougar increase GOS Nov 15 - Feb 15, continue pursuit only Feb 16 - Mar 31

3.) Grizzly bear increase LEH to include all of 8-23

4.) Moose shorten GOS spike/fork to Oct 15 - 31

5.) Goat increase LEH to all of 8-07 and 8-02

6.) Mule deer youth season any buck Sep 1 - 30

7.) Mule deer remove youth season Nov 11 - 18 in light of 6.) above

8.) Mule deer extend GOS any buck Oct 1 - 31

9.) Turkey GOS Oct 1 - 15, continue to Nov 30 on 8-01 and 8-09

10.) Whitetailed deer GOS antlerless Nov 1 - 30

11.) Whitetailed deer GOS bucks extend Sep 10 - Nov 30

12.) Whitetailed deer youth season Sep 1 - 9, either sex Oct 10 - 30

13.) Whitetailed deer bow only bucks Sep 1 - 9, either sex Dec 1 - 20

14.) Wolf GOS Sep 10 - June 15, bag limit 3

15.) Access no motor vehicles off established roads and trails above 1700m

[curt]

it would be nice to see the 4 point season extended to mirror the region 3 season. If nothing else this could help even out hunting pressure as regions are close to eachother. As well as western portions of region 8 rarely see snow or good buck activity till mid nov. I have been in the western portions of region 8 in late Nov bow season and bucks are riduculusly plentiful.:confused: Nov 1oth closesure is at least 10 days too soon. They could easily have a rifle season till Nov 24th then bow from 25-Dec 10th?!?!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here's what is on the table in Victoria for next year's regulations:

1.) Bighorn new LEH 8-07 and 8-02 any ram Sep 1 - 30

2.) Cougar increase GOS Nov 15 - Feb 15, continue pursuit only Feb 16 - Mar 31

3.) Grizzly bear increase LEH to include all of 8-23

4.) Moose shorten GOS spike/fork to Oct 15 - 31

5.) Goat increase LEH to all of 8-07 and 8-02

6.) Mule deer youth season any buck Sep 1 - 30

7.) Mule deer remove youth season Nov 11 - 18 in light of 6.) above

8.) Mule deer extend GOS any buck Oct 1 - 31

9.) Turkey GOS Oct 1 - 15, continue to Nov 30 on 8-01 and 8-09

10.) Whitetailed deer GOS antlerless Nov 1 - 30

11.) Whitetailed deer GOS bucks extend Sep 10 - Nov 30

12.) Whitetailed deer youth season Sep 1 - 9, either sex Oct 10 - 30

13.) Whitetailed deer bow only bucks Sep 1 - 9, either sex Dec 1 - 20

14.) Wolf GOS Sep 10 - June 15, bag limit 3

15.) Access no motor vehicles off established roads and trails above 1700m

Anyone know the rationale behind proposal #4?????

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

it would be nice to see the 4 point season extended to mirror the region 3 season. If nothing else this could help even out hunting pressure as regions are close to eachother. As well as western portions of region 8 rarely see snow or good buck activity till mid nov. I have been in the western portions of region 8 in late Nov bow season and bucks are riduculusly plentiful.:confused: Nov 1oth closesure is at least 10 days too soon. They could easily have a rifle season till Nov 24th then bow from 25-Dec 10th?!?!

I agree. We used to hunt GOS any mule deer buck to Nov 30 until 1980, then Nov 15 until the late 1990s (1998?). We submitted a proposal to get the 4 point GOS extended back to Nov 15, but it was turned down.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I agree. We used to hunt GOS any mule deer buck to Nov 30 until 1980, then Nov 15 until the late 1990s (1998?). We submitted a proposal to get the 4 point GOS extended back to Nov 15, but it was turned down.

I think we need to use the leverage of getting a southern inteior mule deer management strategy that was previously mentioned. Harmonize Reg 3,4 and 8. Makes for much more simple regs and way easier enforcement and policing.
Somehow, I don't think that route would lead to a Dec 10th closure.

Starting off with a Nov 15th closure would be a good start.

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

One of the prices of that SIMDS might be a one mule deer limit provincially, which is something I strongly oppose. There's no conservation concern for SI mule deer, and restricting distributed harvest across regions makes no sense at all.

[humble hunter]

it would be nice to see the 4 point season extended to mirror the region 3 season. If nothing else this could help even out hunting pressure as regions are close to eachother. As well as western portions of region 8 rarely see snow or good buck activity till mid nov. I have been in the western portions of region 8 in late Nov bow season and bucks are riduculusly plentiful.:confused: Nov 1oth closesure is at least 10 days too soon. They could easily have a rifle season till Nov 24th then bow from 25-Dec 10th?!?!

There was a bloody slaughter from November 10 to the 30th in the western portions of region 8 . I was a young hunter growing up then and VERY RARELY did we see any of the calibre of bucks we are seeing now. However we did see alot of small bucks take out. On November 8th of this year in region 8, I saw 3 decent 4pt bucks in one day. Let alone another 11 bucks under 4pts. If that season is changed it will be back to the dink bucks.

[pete_k]

Interesting. I wonder if the general trend will be to now pass on the spikers (WT) and concentrate on the bigger bucks and take a doe at the last minute if they don't connect with a big buck.

If it's the case, then maybe more mature bucks will be around in a few years. But also far less does.

[Fisher-Dude]

There was a bloody slaughter from November 10 to the 30th in the western portions of region 8 . I was a young hunter growing up then and VERY RARELY did we see any of the calibre of bucks we are seeing now. However we did see alot of small bucks take out. On November 8th of this year in region 8, I saw 3 decent 4pt bucks in one day. Let alone another 11 bucks under 4pts. If that season is changed it will be back to the dink bucks.

No there wasn't. Think about your experience level as a young hunter finding/seeing game back then compared to your ability now, and temper your response accordingly.

Kills per hunter are very similar now as they were then, as are days per kill. The harvest stats don't support your allegation of a slaughter. Class IV harvest numbers haven't really changed in many years in region 8.

You can only shoot one mule deer per season, and over 90% of hunters are meat hunters, so pressure on mature bucks is a very small component of the harvest as most successful deer hunters tend to tag out on smaller bucks during the October any buck season.

And finally, we are NOT going to toss sound game management practices to the side to cater to trophy hunting. Stockpiling game and depredating winter range, leading to a catastrophic population collapse in a bad winter is foolish, and does not serve the interests of the vast majority of region 8 deer hunters. Our hunters want opportunities to feed their families, and that's what we're trying to get for them, not some big rack for bragging rights.

[Gunner]

There was a bloody slaughter from November 10 to the 30th in the western portions of region 8 . I was a young hunter growing up then and VERY RARELY did we see any of the calibre of bucks we are seeing now. However we did see alot of small bucks take out. On November 8th of this year in region 8, I saw 3 decent 4pt bucks in one day. Let alone another 11 bucks under 4pts. If that season is changed it will be back to the dink bucks.I don't agree with this statement at all.I live and hunt in 8-25,and the number of mature bucks I see in Nov. and Dec. while cougar hunting is considerable.Very few mature bucks have been harvested the last couple of years in this area because of lack of snow and a resulting later rut.Throw in the difference in the number of hunters now(there are FAR fewer),and Region 8 could easily handle a later 4 point season.Region 3 & parts of 4 are open til' Dec.10th,are those bucks less accessible or smarter than Region 8 mulie bucks?I think not! Gunner

[Steeleco]

Anyone know the rationale behind proposal #4?????

SSS

I was thinking the same thing?

BTW Thanks for the optimistic info FD!!

[Fisher-Dude]

Anyone know the rationale behind proposal #4?????

SSS

From the submission (NOT my comments!):

Stakeholder comments: BCWF opposed to the shorter season, guides in support.

Rationale: The moose population estimate has been decreased. The high harvest of immature bulls is not sustainable. A recommended action from Region 8 Moose Management Statement. This option maintains a GOS and resident LEH opportunity for mature bulls.


My comments:

1.) GOABC pressure to reduce/eliminate spike/fork moose seasons has been heard loud and clear in Penticton.

2.) Region 8 bull:cow is currently at 30:100, which is bang on the provincial management average, but has declined a bit over the past number of years. I say it was too high before!

3.) If harvest of immies is down, we get cut back because they say there are no moose. If harvest is up, we get cut back because they say we are shooting too many immies. We can't win. I say if harvest of immies is UP, it's because moose populations are UP! :-?

4.) 35:1 mature bull LEH is NOT an "opportunity" in my opinion. I asked at a recent fish and game meeting for a show of hands of those who had drawn a region 8 moose LEH - there were none. I'd rather hand in half the LEH permits and maintain the immy season as it is for more hunter opportunity. The guides hate that because they want us on LEH only, and want to keep their quota.

[Gunner]

I was thinking the same thing?

BTW Thanks for the optimistic info FD!!This proposal is another case of ultra conservative management by the Regional bioloist.He has no money for winter counts and is "guessing" that too many immatures "may" have been harvested.Throw in the pressure from GOABC to reduce seasons on immatures and this is the result.My own observations show a steadily increasing moose population in Northern Region 8.This has caused a steadily increasing wolf population.Hopefully the proposal for a wolf season will be accepted,the last one died on the Minister's desk.Any Region 8 hunters wanting a wolf season should be writing direct to Barry Penner,or we won't get one. Gunner

[humble hunter]

No there wasn't. Think about your experience level as a young hunter finding/seeing game back then compared to your ability now, and temper your response accordingly.

Kills per hunter are very similar now as they were then, as are days per kill. The harvest stats don't support your allegation of a slaughter. Class IV harvest numbers haven't really changed in many years in region 8.

You can only shoot one mule deer per season, and over 90% of hunters are meat hunters, so pressure on mature bucks is a very small component of the harvest as most successful deer hunters tend to tag out on smaller bucks during the October any buck season.

And finally, we are NOT going to toss sound game management practices to the side to cater to trophy hunting. Stockpiling game and depredating winter range, leading to a catastrophic population collapse in a bad winter is foolish, and does not serve the interests of the vast majority of region 8 deer hunters. Our hunters want opportunities to feed their families, and that's what we're trying to get for them, not some big rack for bragging rights.

I am not thinking of my experience level, more of my dads and his friends. I also know that growing up there (which is an experience I don't think you can comment on, maybe though) Very few people took only one deer per year. Times were tight and a lot of my friends families relied on game to eat. Harvest stats were obviously skewed as no one would report that they shot 3 bucks and 2 does. I think/hope things have changed with the times. There is also fewer hunters. As far as trophy hunting goes in those days the bucks were certainly not as plentiful as they are now. I am not talking about 4pts I am talking about spikes and 2 pts. Talk to any older resident.

[Fisher-Dude]

I am not thinking of my experience level, more of my dads and his friends. I also know that growing up there (which is an experience I don't think you can comment on, maybe though) Very few people took only one deer per year. Times were tight and a lot of my friends families relied on game to eat. Harvest stats were obviously skewed as no one would report that they shot 3 bucks and 2 does. I think/hope things have changed with the times. There is also fewer hunters. As far as trophy hunting goes in those days the bucks were certainly not as plentiful as they are now. I am not talking about 4pts I am talking about spikes and 2 pts. Talk to any older resident.

My family came to region 8 and started hunting here in 1910. We have "some" anecdotal evidence as to how hunting has been in the past. :wink:

No regulations of any type will curb poaching as you are suggesting. Certainly my family and my family's friends NEVER would condone such actions, and worked with the wildlife agencies to catch such pigs. Maybe your circle of friends were big time poachers in the 1970s and 1980s, but the majority of hunters are, and always have been, ethical and honest. Regulations are not designed with "poaching" in mind - they are designed to manage game species.

There were loads of bucks back in those days. My dad and his friends would often "save" their 2nd deer tags so that they could enjoy late season mule deer hunting for the experiences in the snow and big firs. We always had our freezers full, and some dandy bucks were harvested, like this one my dad took:


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/HPIM0927.jpg


My dad and his buddies nailed muley racks to the side of the garage to weather and disintegrate that would make your head spin. I think we had more big bucks in the hills back then compared to now, because we had a proper management of harvest by taking animals from all age and sex classes, which has been proven to be the best method for herd health.

[KodiakHntr]

You can only shoot one mule deer per season, and over 90% of hunters are meat hunters, so pressure on mature bucks is a very small component of the harvest as most successful deer hunters tend to tag out on smaller bucks during the October any buck season.



Where did you find that statistic? Is that an actual documented percentage somewhere?

I'm seriously curious about that, as most of the mule deer hunters I know are dedicated to shooting big bucks, not dink deer.

[J_T]

6.) Mule deer youth season any buck Sep 1 - 30

7.) Mule deer remove youth season Nov 11 - 18 in light of 6.) above

What is the rationale in moving the youth season? Seems youth taking nice bucks is the way to recruitment. No?

[Fisher-Dude]

Where did you find that statistic? Is that an actual documented percentage somewhere?

I'm seriously curious about that, as most of the mule deer hunters I know are dedicated to shooting big bucks, not dink deer.

Yep, Zeman, 2006, The Precipitous Decline of Resident Hunters in the Okanagan. Only 3% of hunters identify themselves as trophy hunters.The rest are meat, meat then selective, and selective. 78% of hunters are in the first 2 categories. Selective hunters are still looking for meat before a big trophy, but will likely pop the 3 point standing beside the 2 point.

[J_T]

My family came to region 8 and started hunting here in 1910. We have "some" anecdotal evidence as to how hunting has been in the past. :wink:

No regulations of any type will curb poaching as you are suggesting. Certainly my family and my family's friends NEVER would condone such actions, and worked with the wildlife agencies to catch such pigs. Maybe your circle of friends were big time poachers in the 1970s and 1980s, but the majority of hunters are, and always have been, ethical and honest. Regulations are not designed with "poaching" in mind - they are designed to manage game species.

There were loads of bucks back in those days. My dad and his friends would often "save" their 2nd deer tags so that they could enjoy late season mule deer hunting for the experiences in the snow and big firs. We always had our freezers full, and some dandy bucks were harvested, like this one my dad took:

My dad and his buddies nailed muley racks to the side of the garage to weather and disintegrate that would make your head spin. I think we had more big bucks in the hills back then compared to now, because we had a proper management of harvest by taking animals from all age and sex classes, which has been proven to be the best method for herd health.
I've got a similar heritage, and I'm not denying the quality back then, but I know they/we were shooting lower caliber rifles, shorter distances and some with open sites. Back in those days there was probably less highway fatalities in wildlife too, and we hunted predators a lot more, we didn't have the variety and expertise with game calls and we didn't ride quads. It adds up to the simple fact, we live in different times now. The influences on a wildlife population today are not the same as they used to be. I'm not sure the argument it worked back then, it should work now is a risk we want to be taking.

[humble hunter]

My family came to region 8 and started hunting here in 1910. We have "some" anecdotal evidence as to how hunting has been in the past. :wink:

No regulations of any type will curb poaching as you are suggesting. Certainly my family and my family's friends NEVER would condone such actions, and worked with the wildlife agencies to catch such pigs. Maybe your circle of friends were big time poachers in the 1970s and 1980s, but the majority of hunters are, and always have been, ethical and honest. Regulations are not designed with "poaching" in mind - they are designed to manage game species.

There were loads of bucks back in those days. My dad and his friends would often "save" their 2nd deer tags so that they could enjoy late season mule deer hunting for the experiences in the snow and big firs. We always had our freezers full, and some dandy bucks were harvested, like this one my dad took:


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/HPIM0927.jpg


My dad and his buddies nailed muley racks to the side of the garage to weather and disintegrate that would make your head spin. I think we had more big bucks in the hills back then compared to now, because we had a proper management of harvest by taking animals from all age and sex classes, which has been proven to be the best method for herd health.

Maybe I looked at from a different set of glasses being a kid at the time. This is what saw going on around me. We did not take more than our tags but knew many people that did. It is hard to report someone when they are out of work and have a family to feed. I know everything is completely black and white with you but sometimes there is some grey. I was too young to be doing any reporting just watching with big ears. As far as the "more bucks in the hills goes." I do not agree with you. Hopefully you are all right with that.

[Fisher-Dude]

I've got a similar heritage, and I'm not denying the quality back then, but I know they/we were shooting lower caliber rifles, shorter distances and some with open sites. Back in those days there was probably less highway fatalities in wildlife too, and we hunted predators a lot more, we didn't have the variety and expertise with game calls and we didn't ride quads. It adds up to the simple fact, we live in different times now. The influences on a wildlife population today are not the same as they used to be. I'm not sure the argument it worked back then, it should work now is a risk we want to be taking.

If there were any conservation concern with mule deer, I'd agree with you. However, when our biologist tells us that we are "even better than the hay-days of the past" in our mule deer population, there's no common sense that would dictate keeping restrictions/short seasons in place that discourage resident hunters. Restrictive regulations were found to be discouraging, or extremely discouraging, by close to 60% of Zeman's respondents, antler restrictions 50%, and limited opportunites >60%. We're working to encourage hunters, not to pander to the vocal minority that want the whole herd to themselves despite biology that proves it to be detrimental to herd health.

[GoatGuy]

What is the rationale in moving the youth season? Seems youth taking nice bucks is the way to recruitment. No?

Most of them aren't even taking bucks, a couple are. There have been a couple of 'nice bucks' taken. Mostly it just lets kids go out with their dads. Been out with the COS - kids are just looking for a buck to shoot. As you well know the first couple of deer are tough for a 10 year old kid. Things have to be perfect.

The MoE has indicated it is perceived as a trophy season. Where/who that perception comes from has not and probably will not be identified.

Just another dark room that falls into the abyss.

[GoatGuy]

I've got a similar heritage, and I'm not denying the quality back then, but I know they/we were shooting lower caliber rifles, shorter distances and some with open sites. Back in those days there was probably less highway fatalities in wildlife too, and we hunted predators a lot more, we didn't have the variety and expertise with game calls and we didn't ride quads. It adds up to the simple fact, we live in different times now. The influences on a wildlife population today are not the same as they used to be. I'm not sure the argument it worked back then, it should work now is a risk we want to be taking.

It's all about the number of deer you have and the number you harvest. The rest isn't really relevant.

Those are the two important numbers if you want to make some sort of relationship. :wink:

You're already into the how, missed the how many.

[ElkMasterC]

However, when our biologist tells us that we are "even better than the hay-days of the past" in our mule deer population, there's no common sense that would dictate keeping restrictions/short seasons in place that discourage resident hunters.

Wow...who's that biologist?

I just got back from 22 days of Mule deer hunting, and I disagree. I spent whole days without seeing one deer, and this was from Princeton to Oliver and up to 100 mile. I passed up some four points, and got a nice one in region 8, but to say there's more than ever is horse shit. I remember days with Humble Hunter where we'd watch "Mule Trains" come up the hills from alfalfa fields and orchards below. We haven't seen that in a decade.
Although I disagree on numbers, I do agree on the kind of skewed observations shooting any buck gives you.
We never SAW (many) big bucks in the 'old days' cuz we shot every spike and 2 point we saw, and went home....lol
Now that I let more go than I could shoot, I get to see some nicer bucks.
You get some good video too, while you're at it.
I just let a 130++ class buck go on the weekend, something that would be unTHINKable in the before time.

But on a deer/day average, I would say there are fewer mulies, and I'm against doe seasons at ALL in some areas. I don't care what you read, I believe what I see.

[Gunner]

On a deer per day basis I see more mulies,not less and I live in Region 8.The most important regulations proposed seem to me to be ,#1 whitetail doe harvest,as whitetails are thick as fleas in most of the Okanagon,and they are utilizing mule deer winter AND summer range nowdays. #2 Wolf season.I have seen over the last 3 or 4 years,wolf tracks,on ALL the mule deer winter ranges that I frequent.This year 0n 4 different wintering areas.10 years ago it was a suprise to see a single track,the last 2 years I have encoutered the tracks of packs of 12 or more wolves.This year I have seen tracks within 2 miles of my home,and I don't exactly live in the wilderness!I find that in my area mulie bucks spend the pre rut period in extremely heavy growth and don't move down til later every year.I hunt that crap,and have taken the odd buck,but it's tough(so be it!).The last 2 years,I'm finding the deer on extremely steep side hills,the flats above that used to hold them are covered with wolf tracks.There is no shortage of good bucks around tho',and I stand by my assertion that we could handle a later 4 point season.Again,maybe someone can point out a difference between Region 3 and 8.Region 3 deer are doing fine with the Dec.10th closure. Gunner

[Fisher-Dude]

Wow...who's that biologist?

I just got back from 22 days of Mule deer hunting, and I disagree. I spent whole days without seeing one deer, and this was from Princeton to Oliver and up to 100 mile. I passed up some four points, and got a nice one in region 8, but to say there's more than ever is horse shit. I remember days with Humble Hunter where we'd watch "Mule Trains" come up the hills from alfalfa fields and orchards below. We haven't seen that in a decade.
Although I disagree on numbers, I do agree on the kind of skewed observations shooting any buck gives you.
We never SAW (many) big bucks in the 'old days' cuz we shot every spike and 2 point we saw, and went home....lol
Now that I let more go than I could shoot, I get to see some nicer bucks.
You get some good video too, while you're at it.
I just let a 130++ class buck go on the weekend, something that would be unTHINKable in the before time.

But on a deer/day average, I would say there are fewer mulies, and I'm against doe seasons at ALL in some areas. I don't care what you read, I believe what I see.

The biologist is Brian Harris.

So, you don't live here, you cruise thru on a hunting trip, and you consider yourself fully informed to tell us what the deer population is like based on a few days of stumbling around in the bush? :rolleyes: Good on ya for finding a dumb one. :mrgreen:

I don't remember seeing 30 mule deer per day back in the 70s and 80s, but now it's fairly common for me. My eyesight sure as hell isn't any better.

You would have to tell me why we shouldn't hunt mule deer later based on regions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7A, and 7B all hunting them much later than region 8. When you can convince me that those deer are somehow smarter than region 8 deer, I'll convert.

[ElkMasterC]

That's funny, I've talked to Brian on several occasions in the past, and that's not the impression I've gotten.
You seem to be very well versed about regulations, politics, and policy.
It must take up so much of your time, all that sallow-faced sitting at a computer screen, reading and downloading pdf's.
Add that to your part-time job as President and Sole member of the Gordon Campbell Fan and Glee Club, and wow!
Hard to believe you have time to sneak out and run over two point whitetails with your quad.
Well done though, FD, well done!
You really have that boots-on-the-ground touch.
Now if you ever want to spend some time in the bush, and wear out Meindls instead of your mouth, then your posts might actually carry some weight.
I know what I see, and I spend a lot of time in region 8.
Sorry I don't have pictures of huge family history deer though, I only post up what I earn myself through hard work.
My bad.

Oh, and my comment was about LEH does, not season lengths. it was not in PDF format, and for that I apologize profusely :D

[Fisher-Dude]

Like I said, explain why all other regions hunt mule deer later than region 8. Simple, no?

[Gunner]

Like I said, explain why all other regions hunt mule deer later than region 8. Simple, no? Same reason that Region 8 is the only Region with no wolf season,BH. Gunner

[ElkMasterC]

Ask your buddy and best pal Brian.
Simple, no?

Why ask some stumbling idiot that lucks into mentally challenged bucks?
For a smart guy you sure are thick sometimes.

[KevinB]

I do agree on the kind of skewed observations shooting any buck gives you.
We never SAW (many) big bucks in the 'old days' cuz we shot every spike and 2 point we saw, and went home....lol
Now that I let more go than I could shoot, I get to see some nicer bucks.
You get some good video too, while you're at it.
I just let a 130++ class buck go on the weekend, something that would be unTHINKable in the before time.


I think you're pretty bang on with this statement. Pretty much makes sense.




But on a deer/day average, I would say there are fewer mulies, and I'm against doe seasons at ALL in some areas. I don't care what you read, I believe what I see.

Believing what you see is a pretty good idea. If you didn't see very many deer per day, then you didn't. But what you're doing is extrapolating what you see to everything that you don't see. That's fine if your sampling design (where and when you look) is appropriate and number of samples you take (how many times you look around) are sufficient.

The question is, does your yearly hunting activity constitute an appropriate sampling design? I have no idea. Could you confidently say that your observations accurately reflect the MD population level of the entire Region 8? I would go out onto a limb and say that the only thing your lack of deer sighting meant was that you weren't in the same place as the deer were on the days you were out there. Luck of the draw.

The same as, the fact that I happened to see a fair number of deer in the few days I had this fall, probably meant nothing other than I happened to be where some deer were.

Whether the deer population is higher or lower really has very little bearing on what any individual hunter sees/doesn't see. If most hunters didn't see very many, then it might make you suspicious.


Why can't people just feel comfortable with the fact that their limited personal observations may not actually reflect the bigger picture? Or that there may be no "reason" for why they see lots/few animals?

[ElkMasterC]

Hey Kevin!
Long time listener, first time caller.
I dunno, buddy. Work usually dries up in the late fall, and I get lots of days in the field.
When I was NEW at Mulie hunting, I seemed to see large groups of Mulies. Big packs of does that had some spikes and dueces in them, and occasionally a bigger buck flying off into the twilight. Like I said, I haven't seen this in a long time, and I miss it.
I spent (this year alone) 10 days in region 4, 14 days in region 8 and 15 days in region 3 hunting, and with the exception of region 4, I haven't seen as many Mulies as i have in the past. Add this to the avg 20-40 days a year I spend hunting, and I think I have at least a small grasp on what i see.
Numbers and reports are one thing, but ask yourself where those reports come from, and how the data are acquired.

[horshur]

Hey Kevin!
Long time listener, first time caller.
I dunno, buddy. Work usually dries up in the late fall, and I get lots of days in the field.
When I was NEW at Mulie hunting, I seemed to see large groups of Mulies. Big packs of does that had some spikes and dueces in them, and occasionally a bigger buck flying off into the twilight. Like I said, I haven't seen this in a long time, and I miss it.
I spent (this year alone) 10 days in region 4, 14 days in region 8 and 15 days in region 3 hunting, and with the exception of region 4, I haven't seen as many Mulies as i have in the past. Add this to the avg 20-40 days a year I spend hunting, and I think I have at least a small grasp on what i see.
Numbers and reports are one thing, but ask yourself where those reports come from, and how the data are acquired.

If you hunted the North river it goes without saying that last winter was a 70's blast from the past.....significant winterkill...the doe groups were smaller cause they were missing most of the yearlings.
I cannot comment on other regions or even other areas in three however if you were hunting up the North Thompson this is probably why sightings were down for you.

[Remmy]

I have taken my son on the late youth hunt in 2008 and again this year and he was sucessful both years. We talked with a few of the locals and I believe that pressure from a special interest group is pressuring Victoria to remove the youth hunt. I have Bow hunted in BC and Alberta and I belive that Region 8 has the best Bow hunting late season available, but the Bow hunters are thinking that the youth season is going to affect thier time in the outdoors. Maybe we should eliminate all special interest groups and just have a general open season and you choose you weapon! If we don't get kids interested and keep our hunting numbers up threre we will loose to the likes of Greenpeace and PETA. Just my opinion!

[Phreddy]

Maybe we should eliminate all special interest groups and just have a general open season and you choose you weapon! If we don't get kids interested and keep our hunting numbers up threre we will loose to the likes of Greenpeace and PETA. Just my opinion!

That's absolutely dead on the 10 ring Remmy.

[boxhitch]

Maybe we should eliminate all special interest groups and just have a general open season and you choose you weapon! If we don't get kids interested and keep our hunting numbers up threre we will loose !..........It couldn't get any better than this. A few micro areas would be impacted, a few micro populations would be impacted, but in the big picture an open GOS would make more room for everyone. Some hunters would be done early with a early kill whatever it is, leaving the woods quiet for others later. Hunters would have a choice to suit their own needs.
There are not masses of new hunter waiting in the wings to pounce on a new offering and deccimate any population like some would have us believe. The hunters are not there to cause any real damage, especially when the pressure is spread out through all regions in a unified season offering.

[boxhitch]

....... but I know they/we were shooting lower caliber rifles, shorter distances and some with open sites. ........Do you suggest this has anything to do with game populations ?
More likely to do with hunter ability and the type of terrain/habitat hunted. Vegatation has changed as have logging practices, the animals have adapted well.

[GoatGuy]

Wow...who's that biologist?

I just got back from 22 days of Mule deer hunting, and I disagree. I spent whole days without seeing one deer, and this was from Princeton to Oliver and up to 100 mile. I passed up some four points, and got a nice one in region 8, but to say there's more than ever is horse shit. I remember days with Humble Hunter where we'd watch "Mule Trains" come up the hills from alfalfa fields and orchards below. We haven't seen that in a decade.
Although I disagree on numbers, I do agree on the kind of skewed observations shooting any buck gives you.
We never SAW (many) big bucks in the 'old days' cuz we shot every spike and 2 point we saw, and went home....lol
Now that I let more go than I could shoot, I get to see some nicer bucks.
You get some good video too, while you're at it.
I just let a 130++ class buck go on the weekend, something that would be unTHINKable in the before time.

But on a deer/day average, I would say there are fewer mulies, and I'm against doe seasons at ALL in some areas. I don't care what you read, I believe what I see.

Habitat changes over time and so do deer pops. In region 3,4 and 8 some are up, some are down. Hunting seasons aren't what's driving or what will drive the populations with current hunting seasons when it comes to deer. We're basically only casual observers. We don't harvest enough does to have any real impact on the population.

Some of the areas that were traditionally good in Region 8 are really starting to stink because you've got 40+ years of fire suppression, same as region 4 and some of the spots in region 3. There are people who are hunting areas that were great 20, 30 and 40 years ago (ashnola) and they still expect excellent deer hunting eventhough the habitat's growing in every year. Other areas that have had recent logging/burns/enhancement have pretty darn good populations. In other areas the regen is 20-30 ft high so there's no hunters and still a shitpile of deer that hunters can't see and don't want to hunt.

Spent a couple days up in one of our wt spots here in region 8. The guys camped near there had apparently been hunting the area for 20 years (eventhough we've only seen the 2 years in the previous 12). Looking for "big bucks!" They shot one 2 pt in a week - 6 guys in camp. Think they were hunting the sticker on the jagermesister bottle. Anyways, "Deer are way down" is what they told us. "Hunting's not what it used to be." Funny................... we had 16 bucks come through, 2 nailheads, the rest were all 4 pt +. It was about normal for us. Are the deer down? Who knows, in some spots a bit but where we hunt it was about par for the course. Without some enhancement the WT hunting on the east side of OK lake is going to take a serious licken' real quick here. Same with the MD down south and west - unless somebody starts a fire, not a burn, it's only going to continue to get worse. That has nothing to do with hunting, however.

Not saying you're a shitty hunter but deer populations change regularly. Some areas are really good, and some of the traditional areas suck.

If you aren't seeing the deer you're used to try another area. You might find 50 or 60 deer with big bullseyes on the side of them. :wink:

Hope 2010 treats you better.

Happy hunting.

[frenchbar]

This guys posts are the best:mrgreen::wink:

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn117/matthew24classicrock/Hillbilly-Goat--21630.jpg

[boxhitch]

Ahahahaha !!!
Thats great !
Except the house is too big...

[frenchbar]

Ahahahaha !!!
Thats great !
Except the house is too big...
he needs to put the books away and do a little hammer work:lol::wink:

[ElkMasterC]

Not saying you're a shitty hunter but deer populations change regularly. Some areas are really good, and some of the traditional areas suck.

If you aren't seeing the deer you're used to try another area. You might find 50 or 60 deer with big bullseyes on the side of them. :wink:

Hope 2010 treats you better.

Happy hunting.

LOL. I thought I was clear when I said I hunt 3 regions, but I suppose not. All I have to say to anyone is that; If you can keep up to me, you can say what you want.
Thank you for the good wishes, and I extend them in kind,
Cheers
EMI

[Blainer]

.

You can only shoot one mule deer per season, and over 90% of hunters are meat hunters, so pressure on mature bucks is a very small component of the harvest as most successful deer hunters tend to tag out on smaller bucks during the October any buck season.

And finally, we are NOT going to toss sound game management practices to the side to cater to trophy hunting. Stockpiling game and depredating winter range, leading to a catastrophic population collapse in a bad winter is foolish, and does not serve the interests of the vast majority of region 8 deer hunters. Our hunters want opportunities to feed their families, and that's what we're trying to get for them, not some big rack for bragging rights.So is this to cater to truck hunters?
The guys that only want to feed their families,but wont leave the comfort of the truck to look for a mature buck,so we must have a liberal season on spikers?:confused:

[Fisher-Dude]

Ahahahaha !!!
Thats great !
Except the house is too big...

LMAO! If it's pouring rain tomorrow night, we need to fit all us rebellious bullshitters in Goat Humper's modest abode. He'll be sleeping with Kaza if we invade his Mrs's space! :mrgreen:

[Fisher-Dude]

So is this to cater to truck hunters?
The guys that only want to feed their families,but wont leave the comfort of the truck to look for a mature buck,so we must have a liberal season on spikers?:confused:

Where did you get that silly idea? People that choose to road hunt are hunters, people that choose to hike 20 km and pack a deer out are hunters. There's no difference.

Opportunity to hunt for all hunters is what we're trying to accomplish, because if we don't get more people out there, no one will be hunting. Are you dissing someone's choice of hunting style because you think you're better than they are, just because you hunt differently than they do?

[KevinB]

Hey Kevin!
Long time listener, first time caller.
I dunno, buddy. Work usually dries up in the late fall, and I get lots of days in the field.
When I was NEW at Mulie hunting, I seemed to see large groups of Mulies. Big packs of does that had some spikes and dueces in them, and occasionally a bigger buck flying off into the twilight. Like I said, I haven't seen this in a long time, and I miss it.
I spent (this year alone) 10 days in region 4, 14 days in region 8 and 15 days in region 3 hunting, and with the exception of region 4, I haven't seen as many Mulies as i have in the past. Add this to the avg 20-40 days a year I spend hunting, and I think I have at least a small grasp on what i see.
Numbers and reports are one thing, but ask yourself where those reports come from, and how the data are acquired.

Hey EMC - I'm not questioning the fact that you saw lower numbers of muleys this year than in past years - what you saw is what you saw, of course. It sounds like you get out there a lot and you probably have a pretty good handle on what's going on in the areas you hunt. All I'm saying is that one person's observations for a few seasons in a few areas may not have much to do with what deer populations are doing as a whole across a whole region or several. My impression around here is that muleys are pretty darn plentiful, mind you I don't get nearly as many days in the field that I'd like to, especially this year. But there sure as heck doesn't seem to be any shortage.

Like you say, numbers and reports are no better or no worse than how the data is acquired. I couldn't agree more!

[KevinB]

And to get the thread back on track - as far as the Region 8 proposals go, I'd be in favor of anything that increases opportunity, especially for new or "occasional" hunters, as long as it is more or less sustainable.

The longer September youth season for muleys seems better than a short November one, I would imagine that would result in more youth hunting days (better weather, Dad isn't as distracted by his own late-season hunting, or the NHL, etc). Although, I don't see why you would have to remove the November youth season. Why not keep both, if the numbers of extra youth hunters wouldn't be high enough to make a dent anyways?

I would also like to see, in addition to youth hunts, additional antlerless or any buck seasons for "new" hunters, those that have had a hunter number for, say, 2 or 3 years only. I think something like that could help recruit hunters as much as the youth seasons. I know several people who are sort of interested in hunting, and if I could tell them that they could see a legal animal most every day in November, they'd be a lot more likely to get their CORE and have a go at it. And, regular joe's like me, who have busy lives and limited time for hunting, would probably be more likely to take on new hunters if they had to commit less time trying to get them onto a legal animal.

Irregardless, the GOS antlerless WT season will go as long way towards helping new hunters actually shoot something. I'm all for it for that reason alone.

[GoatGuy]

LMAO! If it's pouring rain tomorrow night, we need to fit all us rebellious bullshitters in Goat Humper's modest abode. He'll be sleeping with Kaza if we invade his Mrs's space! :mrgreen:

Bring your rain gear or better yet sit in your truck.

[GoatGuy]

LOL. I thought I was clear when I said I hunt 3 regions, but I suppose not. All I have to say to anyone is that; If you can keep up to me, you can say what you want.
Thank you for the good wishes, and I extend them in kind,
Cheers
EMI

I hunt those same 3 regions. :mrgreen:

Just saying, as habitat continues to go down so will the deer. A couple bad winters makes recovery even slower and you won't get the numbers back to what they once were.

I'm always up for a hike!

If you have a jammer I don't do CPR. Same rules for all the old guys.

[GoatGuy]

he needs to put the books away and do a little hammer work:lol::wink:

Worst carpenter that ever took a breath of air.

[GoatGuy]

So is this to cater to truck hunters?
The guys that only want to feed their families,but wont leave the comfort of the truck to look for a mature buck,so we must have a liberal season on spikers?:confused:

If you want to shoot mature bucks get away from the roads, thus the truck hunters, and shoot 'em. Put a couple hours behind you and you'll be all alone.

Everybody's happy, right?

[Blainer]

Where did you get that silly idea? People that choose to road hunt are hunters, people that choose to hike 20 km and pack a deer out are hunters. There's no difference.

Opportunity to hunt for all hunters is what we're trying to accomplish, because if we don't get more people out there, no one will be hunting. Are you dissing someone's choice of hunting style because you think you're better than they are, just because you hunt differently than they do?I don't see where I indicated I was dissing anyone for there hunting style?I also don't see where I indicated that I thought I was better than they are?I see you made an honest attempt to twist a question that I posed into an attempt to me make me look like I did.
You indicated that WE,as if you are part of the deciding members,quote"we are NOT going to toss sound game management practices to the side to cater to trophy hunting".
My question was,"So is this to cater to truck hunters?"
You indicated that the majority of hunters are meat hunters,and this may be true,but my point is that not all hunters feel the same way.
I'm a hunter,not just a meat hunter.
The meat I harvest from an animal is a bonus,but it is the most expensive meat in my house.
If it was just about the meat,I would buy a cow,as the price to fill my tank is about $140 +accommodation costs +tags +shells +butcher,ect.
I think you see my point,its about the experience and the hunt.We all have our own reasons to hunt,mine is not solely for meat.
How many members on this site log on to follow stories and see pictures of big mature trophy animals harvested?
Look at the number of hits for big sheep,monster mule deer,and trophy elk.The majority may be meat hunters,but a good % of the majority would love a crack at a real trophy animal.
Just my .02,and no dissing of others and there hunting methods.

[curt]

I dont disagree with Humble Hunter it would be a slaughter if it was open to any buck but you still keep the 4 point season. It really shouldnt be any different than any other region. Region 3 isnt totally shot out of bucks yet it's been open later in the season for a long time. I truely beleive harmonizing seasons that are close together will balance out the hunting pressure. I'm no university graduate but it's pretty sad to see these so called professional wildlife biologist's make these decision with little or no real concrete evidence or rationale for the changes. Nov 26th 2 yrs ago region 8 bow season in less than 1.5hrs and 4km's of road we counted 15 bucks 5, 4 point or BIGGER!!! and close to triple digit flat tops!!! There is no shortage of deer a longer 4 point season will effect region 8 no more than region 3,5,6,7 unfortunately I no little about region 4 so i wont include it. These are just my thoughts but I am confident in my assessment as I do spent quite a bit of time in these areas.

[Nooker77]

I have taken my son on the late youth hunt in 2008 and again this year and he was sucessful both years. We talked with a few of the locals and I believe that pressure from a special interest group is pressuring Victoria to remove the youth hunt. I have Bow hunted in BC and Alberta and I belive that Region 8 has the best Bow hunting late season available, but the Bow hunters are thinking that the youth season is going to affect thier time in the outdoors. Maybe we should eliminate all special interest groups and just have a general open season and you choose you weapon! If we don't get kids interested and keep our hunting numbers up threre we will loose to the likes of Greenpeace and PETA. Just my opinion!
First of all I take ofence to the fact your calling "BOW" hunters a special interest group!! Then to put "US BOW" hunters in the same sentence as Peta and others....PLEASE!! I'm a HUNTER Bow and Rifle HUNTER! I buy a license and tags SAME as you...my KIDS want to BOW hunt...key word being HUNT!! Whats wrong with bow hunters having 10 days to not have to dodge lead...other provinces and states have it split up even more...do we want BOW only areas?? I dont..everytime we lose something we never get it back!! I do enjoy the less busy time(less pressure) of bow only season but I dont think this season eliminates chances for future hunters! Grab a bow/crossbow and join the fun! If it aint broke....my 2cents!:-? Love the youth season..keep the kids in it as long as possible...whatever weapon they carry!!

[curt]

we have all been down this road in previous posts I think it is fair to say there is some tension between special interest groups. Bottom line is region 8 should be open longer in the 4 point season than it currently is makes no sense when other regions are still open!!

[J_T]

I have taken my son on the late youth hunt in 2008 and again this year and he was sucessful both years. We talked with a few of the locals and I believe that pressure from a special interest group is pressuring Victoria to remove the youth hunt. I have Bow hunted in BC and Alberta and I belive that Region 8 has the best Bow hunting late season available, but the Bow hunters are thinking that the youth season is going to affect thier time in the outdoors. Maybe we should eliminate all special interest groups and just have a general open season and you choose you weapon! If we don't get kids interested and keep our hunting numbers up threre we will loose to the likes of Greenpeace and PETA. Just my opinion! I would have to agree with Nooker here. You make 'special interest sound like a bad word. Further in this thread Blainer suggests he isn't dissin anyone. Good point. I'm not trying to slag anyone either, just set the record straight.

I can tell you bowhunters are NOT "pressuring" Victoria right now. We accept we are not respected by many hunters and we understand that comes from a lack of knowledge and understanding from many. We believe considering alternative weapons can add value to opportunity and provide opportunity were GOS is not feesible. This is completely reasonable. We are NOT looking to take something away from another user group. With the rifle community you have road hunters, back country hunters, those who hunt from a horse, those who hunt from a quad, sheep specialists, etc. Which one is the special interest group?

I have no idea where some of you are still on this kick that bowhunters are against kids and want to change youth seasons. As far back as I can remember, bowhunters have supported youth in many ways and we've been confused because we aren't doing enough for youth. Bowhunting starts with target archery. That is happening in schools and in programs everywhere. It all add up to getting kids involved and we should be doing everything we can to make it happen.

[Remmy]

First of all I take ofence to the fact your calling "BOW" hunters a special interest group!! Then to put "US BOW" hunters in the same sentence as Peta and others....PLEASE!! I'm a HUNTER Bow and Rifle HUNTER! I buy a license and tags SAME as you...my KIDS want to BOW hunt...key word being HUNT!! Whats wrong with bow hunters having 10 days to not have to dodge lead...other provinces and states have it split up even more...do we want BOW only areas?? I dont..everytime we lose something we never get it back!! I do enjoy the less busy time(less pressure) of bow only season but I dont think this season eliminates chances for future hunters! Grab a bow/crossbow and join the fun! If it aint broke....my 2cents!:-? Love the youth season..keep the kids in it as long as possible...whatever weapon they carry!!

Wow..relax and please don't put words in my mouth! Hunters are Hunters and I did not say anything to change that, however it is the pressure from the Bow hunting community to change the late youth season. What I did say was that region 8 has the most liberal bow season in the province. My only point was that we need to keep kids interested in our heritage of hunting, the late season offers benifits that are not there in the early season the same reason bowhunters have lobbied to have a late bowhunt!! I do apoligize for using the terms "special interest group" but was trying to get my point across.

[ramron]

I always thought a late season leh for 4 point and better whitetail in region 8 would be a good idea. Many years there is little snow esp in the south and the whiteys are in full rut. Good oppurtunity for trophy hunting.

[sarnold]

thanks for the entertianment
I do agree with later mullie opennings in 8..
why should 3 stay open longer than 8?
increase opportinity as the numbers allow

[one-shot-wonder]

thanks for the entertianment
I do agree with later mullie opennings in 8..
why should 3 stay open longer than 8?

It's called a totally over conservative (border-line green peacer) bioligist in region 8......and to quote him...."the mule deer are too vulnerable in November to increase the season length."

Apparently the mule deer are more intelligent during the rut in Region 3 then the in the O.K.:confused:

[one-shot-wonder]

I always thought a late season leh for 4 point and better whitetail in region 8 would be a good idea. Many years there is little snow esp in the south and the whiteys are in full rut. Good oppurtunity for trophy hunting.

Also a good oportunity for non-trophy hunting.....meat hunting!:wink:

[ElkMasterC]

Well what about this: Any buck that's 3 point or less for Nov 11-Dec 10th?
If you hunt a lot there, you know why I'm posting this.

Fish-Dud's hereditary bucks are not included, don't worry. ;-)

[Steeleco]

Apparently the mule deer are more intelligent during the rut in Region 3 then the in the O.K.:confused:

Can't be that smart in 3-13 or they'd duck under the Coq and hide in 8-05 :wink:
Either way, lots of the area in 8 that I hunt are so deep in snow now, I can't hunt there anyhow :cry::cry:

[Fisher-Dude]

I always thought a late season leh for 4 point and better whitetail in region 8 would be a good idea. Many years there is little snow esp in the south and the whiteys are in full rut. Good oppurtunity for trophy hunting.

Where did you get the idea that an LEH WT buck hunt would produce any bigger deer than a GOS? All the studies on WT populations shows that they can't be affected by buck harvest alone. They need to be harvested across age and sex classes to produce the healthiest, most productive herds. It follows that bigger bucks come from healthy herds. A 4 point WT LEH season is the last thing we need - we need a GOS later in the year way before another LEH that does nothing to help the deer herd. We also need more people out hunting, which won't happen with a handful of LEH tickets - LEH is a hunter killer.

[curt]

i'm with you gunner my point exactly

[betteroffishing]

gunners got it figured . and please no one ever mention to anyone in any official capacity the idea of a 3 point or less season , as if it isnt allready a mindf-ck trying to keep track of whats legal in each zone.

[ramron]

Where did you get the idea that an LEH WT buck hunt would produce any bigger deer than a GOS? All the studies on WT populations shows that they can't be affected by buck harvest alone. They need to be harvested across age and sex classes to produce the healthiest, most productive herds. It follows that bigger bucks come from healthy herds. A 4 point WT LEH season is the last thing we need - we need a GOS later in the year way before another LEH that does nothing to help the deer herd. We also need more people out hunting, which won't happen with a handful of LEH tickets - LEH is a hunter killer.
I'm relativly new to this forum, but have spent a good portion of my life in the bush. And have been very successfull in the hunting end of it. And I have noticed many people have registered on this site and have never posted. I wonder why? Is it because of guys like fisher dude, who start threads and wait for people to reply so he can cut them down? All I did was voice a option On what I would like to see in regulation changes. I also hunted in the days when mulies were open until nov 30, and took some of my best then. For years we hardly every saw any good whitetail, and then they started to take over. And you are concerned that a late season whitetail hunt won't produce any bigger deer? They are part of the reason that mule deer are suffering. I'm on elk master's side he also seems to spend a good deal of time in the bush.

[kyleklassen]

Either way, lots of the area in 8 that I hunt are so deep in snow now, I can't hunt there anyhow :cry::cry:can't or won't. obviously not hungry enough.

[ElkMasterC]

I'm relativly new to this forum, but have spent a good portion of my life in the bush. And have been very successfull in the hunting end of it. And I have noticed many people have registered on this site and have never posted. I wonder why? Is it because of guys like fisher dude, who start threads and wait for people to reply so he can cut them down? All I did was voice a option On what I would like to see in regulation changes. I also hunted in the days when mulies were open until nov 30, and took some of my best then. For years we hardly every saw any good whitetail, and then they started to take over. And you are concerned that a late season whitetail hunt won't produce any bigger deer? They are part of the reason that mule deer are suffering. I'm on elk master's side he also seems to spend a good deal of time in the bush.

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l282/Kraigsta/800px-Kung_Fu-From_Dark_Angel.png

You are wise beyond your post count, Grasshopper....

[GoatGuy]

I always thought a late season leh for 4 point and better whitetail in region 8 would be a good idea. Many years there is little snow esp in the south and the whiteys are in full rut. Good oppurtunity for trophy hunting.

The rut is on during the current GOS and the big boys are out chasing does.

If you can't find them now you won't find them with LEH either. Sorry.:mrgreen:

[ElkMasterC]

Three point or less, Mulies..Nov 11 to Dec 10.
Discuss.

[GoatGuy]

I also hunted in the days when mulies were open until nov 30, and took some of my best then. For years we hardly every saw any good whitetail, and then they started to take over. And you are concerned that a late season whitetail hunt won't produce any bigger deer? They are part of the reason that mule deer are suffering.

If you want to reduce wt's you're gonna need a bag limit of 3 or 4 does. LEH for bucks won't do you any good, neither will a 4 point season. Before you were saying you wanted an LEH season to shoot bigger bucks, now you want to reduce the wt population. Confused?

If you weren't finding big white-tails in the South OK back in 'the day' it's because you weren't looking in the right spots or didn't know how to hunt them. Plenty of pictures of big bucks from back then for those who knew how to hunt them.

[ramron]

The rut is on during the current GOS and the big boys are out chasing does.

If you can't find them now you won't find them with LEH either. Sorry.:mrgreen: Are you nuts, they rut like a mother down here till the mid of dec.

[GoatGuy]

Are you nuts, they rut like a mother down here till the mid of dec.

Like a mother, really? All the way through to mid december, every day. Doesn't get quiet for a couple weeks.

For some strange reason I was under the impression that does were the ones who brought the 'rut' on and that they're second cycle usually comes around about 21-28 days later if they don't get bred and then the big bucks will come out again and again most of it probably only last for 4-7 days.

We're talking about big bucks, right? Not a bunch of basket racks harassing does.

[humble hunter]

Three point or less, Mulies..Nov 11 to Dec 10.
Discuss.
You are doing your best to get that damn 3pt gene pool out of the s.o. Good on Ya!:wink:

[ElkMasterC]

Well you know what I'm saying, right? Of course you do, we talk about this a lot.
Brian Harris...are you here with a lurking persona?

Let's wipe these recessives out!

[horshur]

Well you know what I'm saying, right? Of course you do, we talk about this a lot.
Brian Harris...are you here with a lurking persona?

Let's wipe these recessives out!

just shoot them in oct.

[ramron]

Like a mother, really? All the way through to mid december, every day. Doesn't get quiet for a couple weeks.

For some strange reason I was under the impression that does were the ones who brought the 'rut' on and that they're second cycle usually comes around about 21-28 days later if they don't get bred and then the big bucks will come out again and again most of it probably only last for 4-7 days.

We're talking about big bucks, right? Not a bunch of basket racks harassing does.
I notice you have a couple photos in your webshot album dated nov 29 of some decent whiteys.

[GoatGuy]

I notice you have a couple photos in your webshot album dated nov 29 of some decent whiteys.

I'm not sure what this has to do with you wanting to reduce the wt deer population or shooting 'trophy bucks' under a 4 pt LEH?

If anything's dated nov 29 it's because when it was uploaded and modified on my computer. I haven't put a wt picture on the net for 5 or more years.:confused:

[358mag]

I'm not sure what this has to do with you wanting to reduce the wt deer population or shooting 'trophy bucks' under a 4 pt LEH?

If anything's dated nov 29 it's because when it was uploaded and modified on my computer. I haven't put a wt picture on the net for 5 or more years.:confused:
no comment !!!!!!

[GoatGuy]

no comment !!!!!!

How was the gut pile hunting last week?

Didn't see you guys on a FSR in the middle of nowhere.

[ElkMasterC]

just shoot them in oct.


If you SEE them in Oct, take some pics. I would love to see them.
But I don't think you'll be wasting any space on your cams.

[358mag]

How was the gut pile hunting last week?

Didn't see you guys on a FSR in the middle of nowhere.
hunting was good if your looking for Kenworth logging trucks !!!!!
no fire this year but maybe next year

[GoatGuy]

hunting was good if your looking for Kenworth logging trucks !!!!!


Spend all your time in the bar hunting the local girls?

[358mag]

Spend all your time in the bar hunting the local girls?
Yupper seen your video on how to do it flimed "Live" at the Log Cabin Inn at Spences Bridge

[Fisher-Dude]

Bump for Peterrum's info.

[peterrum3]

Thanks FD, got it. How long is it before final decisions are made by MOE on the proposals?

[Fisher-Dude]

Thanks FD, got it. How long is it before final decisions are made by MOE on the proposals?

The MoE in Penticton will know soon what Victoria decides. Whether they tell us in a timely manner is another thing. I don't hold my breath waiting for a response. I'm sure the GOs will know before we do. :?

[dime]

Anyone know the rationale behind proposal #4????? (Limiting spike fork season)

SSS


Obviously GOABC pressure, it is a never-ending attack on our liberties. As previously stated, they will not be satisfied with anything less than all LEH, no GOS for any game species that they can sell off to Americans at $20,000 per head. This is yet another in a seemingly endless series of impediments to inhibit our rights to pursue our hunting opportunities. First it was the gross restrictions for mulies in region 5, now this.

Fight the takeover of our hunting rights!

[boxhitch]

Recent spike/fork harvests have been higher than expected and MOE feels that is not sustainable maybe ??
As if some cows are not getting bred or something

[GoatGuy]

Recent spike/fork harvests have been higher than expected and MOE feels that is not sustainable maybe ??
As if some cows are not getting bred or something

This is true. Bull harvest needs to come down according to the data we currently have.

It can come out of the immature hunt or the LEH hunt.

[boxhitch]

I thought the point of LEH was a flexible tool to use when harvest was good and adjust when poor ?
Is it easier to adjust GOS season length than the LEH permit numbers both ways up and down ?
I suppose it is, when LEH is tied to g/o quotas.

[GoatGuy]

I thought the point of LEH was a flexible tool to use when harvest was good and adjust when poor ?

That was the original intent, but that isn't the way it works in practice and that isn't what it's used for now.


Is it easier to adjust GOS season length than the LEH permit numbers both ways up and down ?

Easier from a managers standpoint to adjust LEH numbers every year, but then we also have allocation policy and quota to deal with and fudging the policy can get your a timeout in the corner, well not really.

Problem is the bull moose harvest has to be brought down.

Two ways are reduce/eliminate the GOS or reduce/eliminate the LEH/quota hunt. I'm sure you can see both sides of the coin on that.

Politics first, wildlife second. :wink:

[threedhunter]

eveyone here has an opinion about seasons, my concern is about access. no access by vehicle above 1700 meters???is all of region 8 to be this way????Guess we better all buy meindls.

[Fisher-Dude]

eveyone here has an opinion about seasons, my concern is about access. no access by vehicle above 1700 meters???is all of region 8 to be this way????Guess we better all buy meindls.

The intent is to keep people on "established roads and trails" above 1700 m. Who knows what that is? This is Harris' (and GOABC's?) brainchild, apparently to keep offroad vehicles out of sensitive alpine. Good in theory, but I think it will be hard to enforce, and again is a restriction on hunters while a joy-rider can rip by you without recourse, from what I understand.

Region 8 of the BCWF will only support an access restriction if it is a.) in response to a conservation concern, and b.) applies equally to ALL users, not just hunters.

[Elk-Aholic]

Like I said, explain why all other regions hunt mule deer later than region 8. Simple, no?

We have over 60 days to hunt/harvest a mulie buck during rifle season in Reg 8, plus bow season. So I'm guessing they think Reg 8 has the best hunters and they only need 60 days or less, not 90+ days like some of the other regions in BC (nothing against any of you outside of region 8, you're area's are alot tougher and access is limited in most other regions). If you need more than 60 days to kill a mulie buck in Reg 8, I think it's time to head back to hunting school and start learning some new techniques. You think we have it bad, try hunting mulies in Alberta where you're lucky to get drawn every 3/4 years and get only a few days to hunt during the whole year!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

We have over 60 days to hunt/harvest a mulie buck during rifle season in Reg 8, plus bow season. So I'm guessing they think Reg 8 has the best hunters and they only need 60 days or less, not 90+ days like some of the other regions in BC (nothing against any of you outside of region 8, you're area's are alot tougher and access is limited in most other regions). If you need more than 60 days to kill a mulie buck in Reg 8, I think it's time to head back to hunting school and start learning some new techniques. You think we have it bad, try hunting mulies in Alberta where you're lucky to get drawn every 3/4 years and get only a few days to hunt during the whole year!!!

As stated in many threads, mule deer hunting in Alberta is incomparable to BC because of the sightability factors in Alberta.

The mule deer population continues to expand in region 8 while the winter range continues to dwindle. Stockpiling game simply means that a bad winter will decimate the herds. It makes much more sense to harvest more animals to keep the population below carrying capacity, provide hunter opportunity, grow healthier deer, and minimize the possibility of a big winter die off like we had in the late 90s.

60 days is fine if you can hunt lots - some folks can only make it out for a few weekends, and if we can help them harvest a deer and show their kids what fun hunting is, then that's what we're going to do.

Don't worry, you're just so frikken good that those kids won't shoot your deer if we give the family another week or two to hunt. :roll:

[BlacktailStalker]

eveyone here has an opinion about seasons, my concern is about access. no access by vehicle above 1700 meters???is all of region 8 to be this way????Guess we better all buy meindls.

You'd be better off with flip flops.

[mark]

You'd be better off with flip flops.

Yup feet would stay about as dry! :-D

[Elk-Aholic]

Don't worry, you're just so frikken good that those kids won't shoot your deer if we give the family another week or two to hunt. :roll:[/quote].

Most of the kids (weekend warriors due to school or work) I take hunting every year shoot deer that anyone would love to harvest; good eating wild game. It's not about my deer or his deer, it's about having a good time together and if lucky puting some meat in the freezer. Plus, I love how everyone has avoided the "3-point or smaller" idea from Nov 10 - 30. Funny how that is. Seem's that either everyone is a trophy hunter and wants a late mulie season to find/see those phantom bucks or no one sees those 3-point or smaller bucks during Nov 10-30 and thinks it's a worthless season. Kinda interesting where this is going. I'm not against you guys who hunt hard all year in hopes to see that one buck that makes your jaw drop, but come the "HEART" of the rut (could be up for debeat from area to area, but it's during november for the most part), we all know those big bucks make the mistakes they would normally never make and then they end up taking some lead and that's the end of the story. If we are hunters, I'm meaning meat hunters, then a 3-point or smaller season from Nov 10-30 should not even be an issue then........

[Fisher-Dude]

Show me one mule deer study that says that a 3 point or smaller season is a scientifically sound method of management. Hubbard's got you drinking the GOABC Koolaid again.

[sourdough]

Once Again You can see GOABC`s fingers inall these reg changes. But with the mismanagement that goes on in this regional office. I guess we should`nt expect any better. I keep wondering who`s paying Brian`s & Steve`s salaryes. I thought they were suposed to be working for the residents of this prov. not non residents

[Elk-Aholic]

Show me one mule deer study that says that a 3 point or smaller season is a scientifically sound method of management. Hubbard's got you drinking the GOABC Koolaid again.

Haha, I only wish I could have some cold kool-aid, it's saturday night and i'm on the internet, obviously something is seriously wrong with me! What he thinks/says is his opinion and everyone is entitled to their own version of bullshit, just like you and I. I'm only suggesting a 3-point or smaller season from Nov. 10-30, not the whole hunting season. Again, wondering why no one is for a "meat" hunt from Nov 10-30. If we are so concerned about increasing harvest statistics for mulies in Reg 8, then why is the proposal a 4pt or better from Nov 10-30, unless that has changed and I've been kept out of the loop? You and I both know that those dink bucks are always hanging around with the does during the rut while the big boys are picking their spots to do the deed and then disappear. Should be easy to bag a dink late season and increase harvest stats they want.

[Fisher-Dude]

There's no current proposal for a late season in November. Last year's proposal was to go back to a Nov 15 closure like it was before the last die off in 1998 when we had high deer populations, just like we had now. It's likely that it will get extended to Nov 15 as part of the Southern Interior Mule Deer Strategy to align with region 4.

Five more days of 4 point won't make a big difference in harvest. Tough shit for your buddy Hubbard. It's been proven that mule deer populations aren't affected by 4 point seasons. The season used to go to Nov 30, any buck ALL season, when we had twice the number of hunters that we do now, with no conservation concerns.

[Elk-Aholic]

For the record, I'm 100% resident, just hoping a save a few big bucks for next year as well as future generations but still give an oppurtunity to bag a buck come the end of the season. And for those who can't get out all the time and/or try to find a big one for most of the season but when it comes crunch time, just want meat in the freezer at the end of the day. This much fighting within the hunting community is only hurting hunting as a group. The anti's watching on this site (and they are on this site!!!!) are just loving every minute of this inter-fighting and building up their case to stop hunting all together.

[Fisher-Dude]

Better ask your buddy Hubbard why he's trying to put all us residents on LEH for damned near everything. We're fighting to keep seasons open and he's fighting to get us shut down. He's your friend, go ask him why he's trying to f*** over a 100% resident like you that likes to hunt.

You think it sucks sitting home on a January night - if Hubbard has it his way, you'll be sitting home Sep 10 - Nov 30 because you didn't get an LEH draw to go hunting. Period.

[pete_k]

Are those reg changes a done deal yet?

[Elk-Aholic]

This is my battle, nothing to do with him. He's a big boy like everyone else and i'm sure he can handle himself. Weither I agree/disagree with him, you, or anyone else is mirely my opinion. I am not picking sides here just giving my personal opinion from stats and from what I've seen in the field. In the end, I'd hate to see a hunting season closed from ego's getting the best of people within the hunting community and simply just wanting to screw the other side out of some season (Residents and GOABC). It's seems to be happening right before our eyes!

[Fisher-Dude]

What is there about the stats that makes you think mule deer harvest is a problem?

Hunting seasons won't get closed down because of any egos, hunting seasons will get closed down due to political pressure from GOABC. The spike/fork season reduction is just the first step.

[Elk-Aholic]

[quote=Fisher-Dude;606405]What is there about the stats that makes you think mule deer harvest is a problem?

->They must be low or why increase the length of the season. Therefore, I guess there is no need to extend a season to increase harvest if it is fine as it stands now?......Seems to contridict itself doesn't it? Why increase the length of a season in order for harvest stats if the numbers are good the way they are now? Wouldn't increasing a season/harvest only give MOE another reason to shorten the season the following year? If the harvest stats are low, then increasing the season makes sense as an 'any buck', not 4 point right? Increasing the season should, in theory, increase the number of mulies harvested (or in LEH the # tags given will either increase of decrease for example to meet the AA).

If you have something against or with Hubbard, I'm sure you can call him or go for coffee and talk about it. Obviously that's between you and him and from what I've heard/seen, LEH on everything is a joke! 100% against that and I will fight to the death if it comes to that. You guys both have valid point of views, it's obvious which side you're on and which side he's on.

Off to work now, duty calls. Good chat and stay safe. Sh**y earthquake down south though. Have some buddies down there helping out and I guess it's a disaster zone beyond belief. Words I guess don't describe the mess that the quake caused.

[Fisher-Dude]

->They must be low or why increase the length of the season. Therefore, I guess there is no need to extend a season to increase harvest if it is fine as it stands now?......Seems to contridict itself doesn't it? Why increase the length of a season in order for harvest stats if the numbers are good the way they are now? Wouldn't increasing a season/harvest only give MOE another reason to shorten the season the following year? If the harvest stats are low, then increasing the season makes sense as an 'any buck', not 4 point right? Increasing the season should, in theory, increase the number of mulies harvested (or in LEH the # tags given will either increase of decrease for example to meet the AA).



We used to sustainably harvest 4800 - 5600 mule deer in region 8 with 12,000 - 13,600 hunters. Now we shoot 2300 - 2600 mule deer with 8000 - 9000 hunters. We can add a LOT more harvest and still be well with sustainability. According to the regional bio, we have more deer than we've ever had. It's time to relax harvest restrictions and get people hunting again. I'm all for any buck seasons - in fact, the proposal to align the October any buck with region 3 was typed on this very keyboard...:mrgreen:

[BCrams]

[
You guys both have valid point of views, it's obvious which side you're on and which side he's on.




So you see Hubbard having valid points of view. I can see FD's points clear as day and the facts he puts out for everyone to see.

Now I have to ask you what Hubbards valid points are seeing that you think he has them........


Point restrictions are known not to help anything, the 4 pt and in particular a 3 point or less season. A GOS any buck would be better. Mature bucks are smart and they'll be out there for the guys that choose to hunt them.

Its no secret the GOABC wants the entire province on LEH to control and eliminate resident hunters in BC.

For example -- watch what happens with Region 5. I would not be surprised if that whole fiasco is part of a larger plan to introduce LEH hunting during the rut ..... which would give the GO's tags to guide hunters with fewer resident hunters in the bush ........ that there is the definition of quality experience ........eliminate / reduce resident presence.

[358mag]

Time out boys need to reload the popcorn machine and put a few more happy pop in the cooler

[6616]

For example -- watch what happens with Region 5. I would not be surprised if that whole fiasco is part of a larger plan to introduce LEH hunting during the rut ..... which would give the GO's tags to guide hunters with fewer resident hunters in the bush ........ that there is the definition of quality experience ........eliminate / reduce resident presence.

The interesting thing with Region 5 is that if mature bucks go on LEH and the allocation is 75/25 (as policy states), that will allocate more tags to the G-Os then the total number of bucks they traditionally or currently harvest, so in the end it's really only a restriction on residents. The same result would occur in Region 8 or Region 4 if mature mulie bucks were placed on LEH.

[Paulyman]

An old thread showing this has been brewing a long time.