Dog food

[levind]

Just wanted to see what everyone thought about the raw food diet for hunting dogs. i hope to have a new member of the family sometime next year. from the things i have seen it seems like a good idea and since we have venison might be economical also. there is a raw and barf diet not sure which one is better.

Kevin

[835]

I feed my dog Professional kibble. I know marc on this site feeds his chessie raw. The only problem i have with raw is that i think kibble "brushes" the dogs teeth.
We had a springer that got homemade gravy made by my mom from deer bits folour and water. We would pour it over her kibble for dinner, then my dad spent 800 bucks at the dentist.
I think there could be benifits to raw i just wonder how the dogs teeth will be.

[levind]

they say that the bones and cartalige brush the teeth of the dogs not sure if thats true or not. mind you my parents had a german shepard on kibble and her teeth were not that great. might need to be cleaned either way. my biggest concern would be it is a pointer and dont know how that will effect the dog in the field. dont want the dog eating the retrieve before it gets to me. lol maybe thats not a concern.

[835]

i dont think that would be a problem. I dont think marc's chessie eats the ducks befor he brings them back :)
after you get some feedback here try phoning your vet. I know there are lots a guys here who feed their dogs raw, the one thing that surprised me was that its the same price if not cheeper that kibble.
i'm putting a bit of thought in it for my next dog.

[levind]

it would be cheaper if you can find bargains but not to concerned about the cost. just seems like there are so many things in kibble that a dog in the wild would never eat just to make it cheaper. Vets are going to be a bit of a problem as from what i have herd not many of them are to happy about the raw diet.

[835]

aparently in van there is a supplier that sells bulk in 1 lb blocks on this site there was a price sheet somewhere i'll try to find it for you. i't supprised me how cheep it was. there were a few guys here who used them

[Spokerider]

There are a few BARF suppliers around......
The cost of feeding it is about double that of top quailty kibble. Of course, if you make your own you can do better, but it IS labour intensive.

[ufishifish2]

What are you guys talking about ? What is this RAW food exactly? And BARF????? What gives???

[Iron Glove]

RAW and Barf are diets composed of uncooked meats, bones and veggies. Totally non processed food for your dog. BARF stands for either "Bones and Raw Food" or "Biologically Appropriate Raw Food" depending on who you talk to.
You can buy it pre made at most pet stores or make your own. If you make your own you generally add supplements to your food. You add raw bones to the diet as both food and recreational treats.
Our Toller has been a BARFer all her life and we can't complain. She is mainly on buffalo as it is low fat.
Advantages are the turds are small (no filler like kibble) and harder, they basically turn to dust in a few days and we have never, ever had to brush her teeth. The Vet used to complain about her being on BARF (he got kick backs for promoting kibble) but has since expressed his support for BARF after seeing the results.
Disadvantages include bacteria in the processing and serving - you should bleach the utensils, etc. - just like you would do if preparing meat for humans. Can be a bit difficult at times to pack around if you are off camping for a week or so.
When our girl was a young puppy it was quite the sight watching her chow down on a raw chicken neck or back.
Read up on it, then make an informed decision.

[Steeleco]

I feed my Rottie all the raw trim and leg bones from all the animals that get processed in my shed. She gets kibble in the AM and raw in the PM. When the raw runs out, she gets the commercial BARF from Surrey meats.

Her stool is smaller and harder (clean up is easier!!) and she is much healthier IMO than just bag dog food. They're carnivores, they need meat!!

[bucktrack]

my yellow lab has been on deer and moose scraps all her life. My vet always comments on how clean her teeth are. I don't tell hem what I feed her because he is an anti hunter. Here is the trick, for puppies, start them with very very small amounts of meat. Increase the amount as they get used to it. To keep the teeth clean give it to them frozen once in a while. WARNING: over feeding on rich venison produces the worst gas. They don't need much of this high energy food. Remember, there is no filler. The true test is by putting a bowl of kibbles beside vension, venison wins every time.
Works for me and my dog

[Iron Glove]

Another comment I'll offer up re BARF.
When we got our mutt @ 7 years ago, our Caughter was a Vet Assistant. She and the Vet were quite anti Barf at the time - "Your dog will die, it's not good for her, kibble has all the right stuff ....... ".
The Vet now accepts BARF as legitimate and daughter who has moved on from the Vet but is still in the animal business has just put her two cats on BARF. She'd put her Lab on it too but the cost is too much at this point.
Go BARF if only for the nice turds. :tongue:

[Steeleco]

IIRC the stuff at Surrey meats is around $1/lb recipe dependent. We use chicken and veg, bone in, never an issue in three years.

A big flat lasts me about 6 weeks.

[Spirit's Master]

Spirit has been on a raw diet since the day we brought him home almost 10 months ago now 65 lbs. He is growing at a slower rate than other Labs his age but our Vet thinks he is healthier for it. We feed him a combination of raw (bovine and veg), lightly cooked salmon and a de-hydrated salmon from NRG. He also gets bones that we pick up from the butcher. It's been easier on his joints not to have 80-90 lbs on him at this age. My wife was one of the first people to feed her Newfounlands a raw diet in Campbell River and she raised a 220 lb monster National Champion. Wendy at Wagz in Courtenay is very knowledgeable in the raw food area if you're on the Island.

A raw diet with lots of meaty bones will keep your dogs teeth pearly white and healthy.

[Marc]

There are a few BARF suppliers around......
The cost of feeding it is about double that of top quailty kibble. Of course, if you make your own you can do better, but it IS labour intensive.

I beg to differ, it cost me about $100 a month for feed my full grown chessie raw food. It used to almost cost me twice that much on kibble before I switched him over to raw.


IIRC the stuff at Surrey meats is around $1/lb recipe dependent. We use chicken and veg, bone in, never an issue in three years.

This is correct, I make a trip over to Surrey every 4 months or so to pick up an order of food (400lbs) I usually mix it up with chicken/bone/veg, Turkey/veg, Chicken/Beef/Veg, and Duck/Bone/Veg. It's $1 a lb, a bit more for the duck, and by the time I calculate the ferry & gas it works out to about $1.62 a lb by the time I get it to my door. I've got a deep freeze just for raw dog food. I was feeding 3 dogs on it for a while so it was more feasible to get a deep freeze and buy it in bulk.

Marshall who is now two is a lean mean hunting machine. His teeth are white with no tartar what so ever. He's fit and you can feel his ribs through his coat.

Here is a picture taken about a month ago that gives you an idea how toned he is and his general health. This dog will retrieve all day and healthy as a horse. My vet thinks he's in great health and knows he's on a raw diet and they are fine with it. Plus the dogs love it. What would you sooner eat chicken beaks, feet, and sphincters with corn & rice fillers or, ground up human quality beef and chicken with raw veg and bone added.

On another subject of the dog eating retrieved before he brings them back. Marshall will not eat a duck in it's natural form. I've tried skinning one and feeding it to him and he wouldn't have anything to do with it. To him it's a fetch toy and not something to eat.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/marshall1.jpg


A big flat lasts me about 6 weeks.[/quote]

[levind]

so it seems most add veg to the meat and not only raw meat then. to those people ant reason why? i have been looking at both and hear that trying to feed like a wolf is the way to go and that way doesn't include veg. not saying its the right way or wrong just want to get other opinions why they add veg to the diet.

Hey marc i've followed your dog on here since day one of you posting the pics when he came home with you. one beautiful dog he is. i was going to go with a lab but stated looking at the versatile breeds and like the pudelpointer if i get a dog as good as your for hunting i will be very happy.

p.s. if you need a delivery of food a good weekend of bird hunting over marshal might get me over there lol.

Kevin

[Iron Glove]

Have you ever noticed that a wolf or other wild animal will tear open it's prey's stomach and eat what's in it? That's how wild carnivores get their daily helping of veggies.
We add veggies to the BARF to replicate this.
Having said that, dogs have been so domesticated for centuries that filler seems to be part of their daily requirements now.

[Devilbear]

I feed my purebred, show winning Rottweilers a diet of EVO kibble largely supplemented with raw meats, bones and veggies, plus organic dog treats. I have also had purebred Rough Collies, Labrador Retrievers and Springer Spaniels and I find that some dogs do better on kibble and others on BARF.

Mighty "Woden", 160 lb. son of a major American international show and "seiger" champion, could NOT handle raw meat or many other foods, BUT, homemade chicken soup, beef soup and Pal kibble kept him in fine trim, until I had to put him down due to a brain tumour. He was the largest "show quality" Rottweiler I have ever seen, his sire was next, but, he had a delicate digestive system. His brother, "Axel the Assassin" a mere 120 lbs. could and would eat anything, but, he really prefered Moose and Elk, especially sausage and could "con" my breakfast sausage from me with one look........bet others here know how that works!

The boy I just got is also an "easy" feeder and likes everything, especially "dad's" last bite of steak..........

There is nothing in human life finer than dogs, IMHO.

[Mik]

Very interesting post. When I had my dog, i never fed it any kind of raw meat. I always cooked it, thinking that if you feed it raw,bloody meat then it would get a taste for it and then would always break the skin on the bird and fail to retrieve it. I also thought that raw meat creates worms in dogs?? I guess i should have read up on this BARF diet. Thanks for the info.

[Devilbear]

The worm issue IS one to be concerned about and "heartworms" are deadly and all too prevalent in hunting breeds. The best method of dealing with this is to keep all dog meat hard frozen for at least 3 months and that usually kills any intra-muscular parasites in game meat.

"Worming" a dog at the first sign of problems is also a very sound practice and keeping them wormfree can be done, with vigilance and care.

[Steeleco]

Sorry DB, but heart-worm is spread by mosquitoes. http://www.dogheartworm.org/

But I do agree that intestinal worms are a thing to consider, but if the meat is clean and handled as we would handle food for human consumption, a healthy dog is more likely.

Mik, to introduce a new dog to raw meat can take a few weeks, start out with table spoons of food mixed with kibble. Slowly increase the amount till the dogs built up the proper amount of enzimes in it's stomach to handle it regularly. But even then as DB said, some dogs will never take to it.

My Rottie will pick any pieces of grouse out of the bowl and eat everything else around it???

[Devilbear]

If, you read what I wrote, I merely stated that the worm issue is one to be concerned about and "heartworms" are a problem; I did not specify that any given type of worms were introduced by a specific vector. I can see how my context could lead one to think I meant otherwise though and apologize for my lack of clarity and the concomitant confusion.

Geezleweze, I must be getting to be an "illiterate" old baztard, eh..... :)

[scoopy]

I feed my dog Orijen, seems to be a pretty quality product.

[Spirit's Master]

A side note regarding 'most' vets. Most have little or no knowledge or training regarding dietary needs for our pets. They only use the info that food reps supply them. If they only talk to dry food reps then that is the info they will pass on to us. Like drug reps in a doctors/vets office they hand out free samples, get discounts on volume purchases (that they do not necessarily pass on to us) and give the odd kick back. Search for a vet that has taken an interest in dietary science and you may find a healthier pet/hunting partner sitting at your feet. Research is the key to finding the right diet for your dog.

cwf

[Iron Glove]

So what exactly is this "Surrey Meats" $1.00 per lb. product?
Is there a choice of meats?
Interested for our Daughter's Choco Lab which they would like to feed Raw but the cost of prepared food is too probibitive at this stage.
We'll keep on Jake & Diasy's buffalo and veggies for our Toller.

[835]

i keep hearing people giving their dogs chicken backs etc.
is this ground? i've always been in the understanding that dogs can get the bones caught in their throat?

[Spirit's Master]

Raw necks, backs, wings, legs are part of the raw meaty bones component of the diet and do not need to be ground prior to feeding. Sometimes we'll bash the bones with a cleaver just to get the party started. Some commercial raw foods have bone ground in already but not enough to meet the dogs calcium requirement. A raw bone or a diet supplement with calcium added is needed.

You should never give a dog cooked bones as the bone tends to splinter and become needle-like and then get caught up. Raw bone shatters and is still sharp but not needle shaped so it does not hang up anywhere.

Frozen necks are a great teething tool for puppies too. Cold and soothing, tasty too.

cwf

[835]

Really?
not that i dont tust you , its just hard for me to grasp. That goes against everything i've been told about dogs and chicken!
mind you it has always been cooked chicken bones, never thought about raw.

[Spirit's Master]

It was a bit hard for me to grasp in the beginning, too. But the Mrs. has me fully converted in less than 5 yrs.

As a child we always gave our dogs cooked beef bones (after we'd gnawed at them). Now I find out that they are probably the worst thing to give a dog as far as obstructions and injury to the dogs digestive tract.

We use a lot of beef knuckle bones instead of chicken just for the size. Keeps Spirit occupied for hours and he gets the teeth cleaning he needs.

cwf

[KB90]

My parents friends cougar hounds get all the bloodshot meat from the hunting season and they love it. :-D

[835]

well judging by your avtar your pooch seems ok with it all!
there is a place by me that sells raw maby i'll go check 'em out
i'm sure my lab would be ok with that :)

[Spirit's Master]

http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt333/SpiritsMaster/Beach1004.jpg

[Cdn-Redneck]

I seen a place in Aldergrove that is east of Safeway, they sell a human grade salmon and potato food. I have no idea of the cost. Vets are a business and if you buy there food they have a mark up on it (profit). They no longer promote Science Diet and Nutro food as they are available at Petsmart and Petcetera. At on time you could only get those brands thru the vet. I mixed up a couple of batches of food that were 10 cups uncooked rice( which I cooked), 2 lbs of hamburger a bag of frozen peas and carrots. The dogs went nuts at feeding time while it lasted. I going to start it up again. I like the am kibble and pm Raw idea. That way the dogs can eat either if you run out of one.

[Hidehanger]

I would encourage you all not to feed your domestic canids raw wildlife parts since they will fill the roll of any wild canids in disease and parasite transmission. There are many affliction our native wild dogs get and pass along around the environment and if you feed your dog carcass scraps, he will just continue the spread...things like hydatid disease, liver fluke and other tape worm type parasites can affect you and your family and may pose a risk. IF we ever get brainworm or CWD, this could also be a huge mechanism of spread to other wildlife and perhaps people.

[Cdn-Redneck]

I posted this once before but a family friend fed his dog raw moose meat and the dog (yellow lab) got a skin parisite that the vet said was caused by the raw moose. It was very nasty looking at the time and cost a chunk to get rid of. Cook the game meat first.

[Evolution]

My vet told me he is "in the dog food business" but that as long as you fully understand the dietary needs of the animal and provide suitable amounts of required proteins enzymes and a few other things I cant pronounce never mind spell, then a barf diet is fine. He also said that he doubts there would be any noticeable positive health benefit by feeding them a raw diet. I removed my dog from the raw diet she was on when I got her and have since stablized her turds with Techni-cal puppy kibble. Its easy to be consistent with what I am feeding her, and even though I have or could have a fairly easy supply of cost-free or surplus meat for her I am simply more comfortable with using a high quality commercial dog food.

I was slicing some venison for a batch of jerky last night and fed her some of the trimmings, she wolfed it back and seemed to really love it so I think I will use it as a treat rather than a regular feed.

Your dogs look amazing, maybe when Jenny is a bit older I might consider the path you guys have chosen.

[Kevin So]

Been feeding Raw to my 7 year old Cattle dog since he was 5 months old. He is a picture of good heath. Clean teeth, no heath issues. Don't rush into in, do your research throughly. There are lots of info out there, start with Dr Ian Billinghurst's books “Give Your Dog a Bone”. it explains a lot.

Be prepare for more work than Kibble, and but its well worth it in my opinion. Kibbles were created to take advantage of our weakness...Lazyness....its easy to throw a scoop in the bowl and walk away but takes time and effort to think ahead, thaw, and prepare. if you go commercially packed food is much more expensive, but if you go to your butcher shop to pick up chicken carcases, bones and organs its dirt cheap, and of course if you bag a deer, or moose,elk and even ducks and pheasant, then you can share that with your pup. Go raw and your dog will thank you for it.

[MB_Boy]

I would encourage you all not to feed your domestic canids raw wildlife parts since they will fill the roll of any wild canids in disease and parasite transmission. There are many affliction our native wild dogs get and pass along around the environment and if you feed your dog carcass scraps, he will just continue the spread...things like hydatid disease, liver fluke and other tape worm type parasites can affect you and your family and may pose a risk. IF we ever get brainworm or CWD, this could also be a huge mechanism of spread to other wildlife and perhaps people.

I gotta agree with Hidehanger on this one. By all means.....do what you choose but ensure you are understand what "can" come from feeding raw, wild scraps specifically to your dogs.

Parasites like tapeworms CAN be transferred to humans as well if in some way, shape or form you or family members come in contact with the eggs of one in the feces of your dog. Now having said that.....I am not sure if freezing the meat at a certain temperature over a length of time would negate any concerns?

Try doing some googling and you may be surprised at some of what you find. The life cycle/transmission is very similar to that which you will find in wolves.


People can get roundworm, hookworm and tapeworm from dogs.

Dogs pass the infectious tapeworm eggs in their stool, which can cause infection (http://www.blurtit.com/q711753.html#) in people who accidentally swallow the eggs. This can happen quite easily if, for example, you pat your dog and then don't wash your hands before eating. There are 2 species of tapeworm which commonly affect humans, Dipylidium caninum and Echinococcus granulosus. If a human is infected by Dipylidium caninum, worms will develop in their digestive tract. Unless the worm burden is heavy, this rarely causes harmful disease. Echinococcus infection, however, is very serious. Infection of humans by Echinococcus tapeworm results in slow growing hydatid cysts (http://www.blurtit.com/q711753.html#) to develop in different organs of the body. This can result in organ disease, cause embolisms, or fatal anaphylactic reactions. The cyst can be very difficult to treat.

To prevent tapeworm transmission to humans you should ensure you are regularly treating you dogs for worms. Adult dogs should be wormed every 3 months. Practice safe hygiene by picking up any stool in your yard, wash your hands after handling your animal, and avoid having dogs lick your face. If you suspect your animal has worms you should be especially conscious of children who are at greater risk of infection.
__________________________________________________ ____________________


Tapeworms:At least 21 different species of tapeworm have been known to infest wolves. Wolves usually contract tapeworm cysts from the prey animals they eat. Once the tapeworm cysts enter the wolf's body, they will attach themselves to the intestinal wall of the wolf and will feed off of the wolf's body fluids. The segments of the tapeworm (tapeworms are made up of a tiny, microscopic head and hundreds of body segments that are full of eggs) are usually expelled in the wolf's feces, and resemble tiny grains of rice. Symptoms of a severe tapeworm infestation include loss of appetite, weight loss, and mild diarrhea. Tapeworm infestations do not directly kill wolves, but a wolf suffering from a severe infestation may become weakened and unable to hunt effectively.
The two tapeworm genera that most often occur in wolves are Taenia and Echinococcus. Tapeworms are quite common in free ranging wolves, and it is thought that Echinococcus plays an important role in regulating wolf and moose populations. The mechanism goes as follows: As wolf density in an area increases, the sites that are being used extensively by the wolves will become contaminated by a large number of Echinococcus eggs. The presence of Echinococcus cysts present in moose populations using the areas frequented by wolves will then increase. Since the cysts usually occur within the pulmonary tissue of moose, animals with severe infections will become weak. Such moose will be more likely to be killed by wolves than healthy moose, so the presence of the parasite enhances the regulatory effect of wolf predation on moose.




http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBF_enCA323CA323&q=tapeworm+transmission+to+humans

http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=2h&oq=tape&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBF_enCA323CA323&q=tapeworms+in+dogs

http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1h&oq=tapeworm&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBF_enCA323CA323&q=tapeworm+transmission+to+humans

[Lucky77_]

what about frozen salmon? say whole pinks or chum ???

[Marc]

I've never fed the dog wild meat except for the one time I tried feed him a duck but he didn't want anything to do with it.

The food that I buy from Surrey meat is human grade meat, meaning it goes through all the same inspections as does human food. If you pick up the chicken and veg without bone in it you can cook it and eat it yourself if you'd like.

When I introduced my older labs to raw diet I noticed a difference within weeks of them being on it. More energy, and toned down a bit while being satisfied and getting extremely excited come feeding time.

I take 3 blocks(two for Marshall and 1 for Penny) out in the morning, put it in their bowls in the laundry room and by the time I get home from work it's thawed and ready to go. I usually stir it up so they don't gull it down in one bite.

Kibble is easy but not necessarily any cheaper then raw. Everyone has their preferences, I've made my decision and quite happy with the outcome and health of the animals. I had one dog put down for cancer at just shy of 12 1/2 years and I have a female lab who just turned 11 years old and a two year old chessie who love and do well on it.

I've never seen any signs of aggression or hard mouth on birds because of being fed raw. They might squabble over a bone but it's so good it's worth squabbling after I guess.

[Marc]

what about frozen salmon? say whole pinks or chum ???

I haven't done it but some people will feed their dogs salmon from time to time. Would be good for their coats. I wouldn't feed them a whole salmon as it would most likely give them the trotts.

Make sure you feed your dog a previously frozen salmon for fear of worms as well as any other wild game.

[Lucky77_]

what about the bones in fish??

[levind]

i think for me one of the main advantages of raw would be to feed wild game. took a look at the links posted before and yuk but is it really that prevalent in b.c. to be that worried and not feed raw wild game. Seams like a lot of the worms come from the organs of the animal maybe i would stay away from those parts or maybe cook them before giving them to the dogs. Some of the pics i did see looked like they were big enough to see when cutting up the game meat but i could be very wrong.

[praire dog]

Re: Bones and Teeth

New to the site....thought I'd weigh in......We have always fed our Labs raw beef bones as treats and to help with teeth cleanliness and gum health. It has worked for us. The cooked or smoked ones tend to splinter.