Gang Ranch

[MuleyStalker]

Just wondering how people made out for the re-opening at Gang Ranch, Empire Valley, Churn Creek. My brother and I came home unsuccessful but did manage to see a 4-point. Neither of us felt comfortable shooting at it as it was 350-400 yards away. Need to do some more shooting to be ready for next time.

[SteadyGirl]

had an invite, never made it out. I give up on mule deer hunting:roll: hmmm lets see have i ever even seen a legal mulie in a legal area during hunting season=Nope.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

had an invite, never made it out. I give up on mule deer hunting:roll: hmmm lets see have i ever even seen a legal mulie in a legal area during hunting season=Nope.

I think I know who taught you to hunt for mulies!!:tongue:

SSS

[MIL720]

I went out...no big boys yet...

[husky30-06]

just got back from empire valley........ no luck, only saw two bucks. one four point on sat evening, but he was moving like he was fired out of a cannon and a three point but VERY small.

[MuleyStalker]

Hahaha Guess I don't feel too bad then. I've been hunting the ranch area for a few years now and it has never lived up to the reputation I've heard so much about. Mind you, I have only been hunting for a few years. Maybe it's time to move on and find some new hunting grounds......

[husky30-06]

Hahaha Guess I don't feel too bad then. I've been hunting the ranch area for a few years now and it has never lived up to the reputation I've heard so much about. Mind you, I have only been hunting for a few years. Maybe it's time to move on and find some new hunting grounds......

LOL..... talked with one old timer that dropped over before his hot tub time YA A HOT TUB AT A HUNTING CAMP!!!!!! He talked that the numbers of big boys has dropped conciderabley and the amount of hunters in during this period shooting ALL the smaller bucks, the big guys do not leave the back area. this back area is in and about the 6000ft - 7000ft and is blocked be at least three feet of snow. the genetics in the area also is falling. He would like to see the end of the any buck period for region 5.

[MuleyStalker]

Oh man! A hot tub?! I think I would feel too guilty on a hunting trip to get in a hot tub. I think I would have to agree with the old timer. If there needs to be more restrictions to help improve the deer situation then I'm all for it. I have noticed in the last 3 years, seasons there have become more limited and I hope it helps. I actually don't hunt the Empire Valley or Churn Creek area (but close to it) because I have heard that there are hunters everywhere. Does it stay busy through 4 point season or does that scare guys off to hunt other areas?

[PGK]

Is there any snow yet?

[husky30-06]

Oh man! A hot tub?! I think I would feel too guilty on a hunting trip to get in a hot tub. I think I would have to agree with the old timer. If there needs to be more restrictions to help improve the deer situation then I'm all for it. I have noticed in the last 3 years, seasons there have become more limited and I hope it helps. I actually don't hunt the Empire Valley or Churn Creek area (but close to it) because I have heard that there are hunters everywhere. Does it stay busy through 4 point season or does that scare guys off to hunt other areas?

LOL.... hunters???? lets see there were about 15-20 camps with about five or so hunters in each with in the 30km road. as for running into other hunters, we only really ran into them near the bottom at the camp areas chasing does. access was very limited on the blackdome mine road at about 7500ft unless you had chains and LOTS of clearance. i will be checking the LEH regs for this year, a coast hunter in the area mentioned that there were 500 some does draws given out for that region :-?. most guys were hunting does.

[MuleyStalker]

Fortunately, we only saw two other trucks hunting in the same area but they were only road hunting. We never saw a single hunter near the areas we hiked into which is nice. There was a couple inches of snow but we were hunting low. Didn't see much sign higher up. From what I have heard, the hunting can be good as long as you're willing to hike into places nobody else is willing to go.

[husky30-06]

Fortunately, we only saw two other trucks hunting in the same area but they were only road hunting. We never saw a single hunter near the areas we hiked into which is nice. There was a couple inches of snow but we were hunting low. Didn't see much sign higher up. From what I have heard, the hunting can be good as long as you're willing to hike into places nobody else is willing to go.

Ya... for sure. we did see most of our deer in the upper elevations at 3400ft to 5000ft and we were 15km off trail up onto the high ridges over looking Higgins bottom. any really big sign we did see was on the treed sunny slopes that are, mmmmmmmm, 70 - 80 degree angle!!!!!!:cry::cry: very hard to hunt!!!!!!

[MuleyStalker]

Haha I know what you mean. I always think that I can hike steeper than i actually can. I found that the snow down low was extremely loud and very difficult to still hunt in making glassing the only good option. Is the snow Similar up high or does it work to your advantage?

[husky30-06]

Haha I know what you mean. I always think that I can hike steeper than i actually can. I found that the snow down low was extremely loud and very difficult to still hunt in making glassing the only good option. Is the snow Similar up high or does it work to your advantage?

well in our area..... we had the issue of being two dark objects in a very snowy background......:) very good trip though, lots of drinks and plenty of laughter!!!!!:mrgreen:

[MuleyStalker]

haha ditto on the drinks and laughter. Thanks for the info:)

[David Heitsman]

Had hoped to get back in there for the last of it but maybe not missing much. Without some kind of change
made the area will be doe spike city.

Had planned to closer to Lilloett right now but that hunt was canceled till next year due to no deer in there either. Sure hope it's a migration timing thing and not a
herd health/count issue.

[husky30-06]

haha ditto on the drinks and laughter. Thanks for the info:)

cheers..... you heading to the vernon for the 19th christmas party?

[frenchbar]

Lots of deer in those areas ..ya just have to work a little harder for them:mrgreen::wink: their not tied up for ya along the river breaks:mrgreen:

[GoatGuy]

LOL..... talked with one old timer that dropped over before his hot tub time YA A HOT TUB AT A HUNTING CAMP!!!!!! He talked that the numbers of big boys has dropped conciderabley and the amount of hunters in during this period shooting ALL the smaller bucks, the big guys do not leave the back area. this back area is in and about the 6000ft - 7000ft and is blocked be at least three feet of snow. the genetics in the area also is falling. He would like to see the end of the any buck period for region 5.

How do genetics fall?

[husky30-06]

How do genetics fall?

the way he was talking.... all the little guys are being shot out of the area at an alarming rate and the big guys are not venturing intothe area due to all the pressure so..... no good breeders..... no continuation of the blood lines!:-|

[ElkMasterC]

Aaaahh...heeeere we go *sigh* ;-)

[PGK]

That's a new one. Wolves never got em, people never got em, they just stopped rutting due to too many hunters.

[GoatGuy]

the way he was talking.... all the little guys are being shot out of the area at an alarming rate and the big guys are not venturing intothe area due to all the pressure so..... no good breeders..... no continuation of the blood lines!:-|

Still don't get it??

[David Heitsman]

Ask John the local rancher if he has even seen a big deer in the last five years?

Try to find a big shed in the area. They aren't there the last few years. All I find is puny 4's or fork horns.

In the area where the crews were slashing the conifer
ingrowth they were stacking all the sheds. Only one antler in the piles there that might have gone past the ears. (Perhaps they kept the big ones?)

[frenchbar]

Still don't get it??

Its a headscratcher allright:confused:

[stitch]

Has anyone been around the area of George's Bluff or table Top mountain?

[FlyingHigh]

i was up there last 2 weeks ago for my doe draw. churn creek area. didn't see a single buck, and only saw 5 does. one on gang ranch land, one high-tailing it through thick stuff, one we tried to get a stalk on but i didn't have a shot and 2 that winded us from 300m and stepped on the gas. didn't see any other hunters up there that weekend, though a camp nearby had been recently vacated, and they got a doe seeing as the hide was lying on the ground and the head was wedged in a fork in a tree. *******s. that one made me jump. lol. :D

[huntwriter]

the way he was talking.... all the little guys are being shot out of the area at an alarming rate and the big guys are not venturing intothe area due to all the pressure so..... no good breeders..... no continuation of the blood lines!:-|

That does not make sense. Just because hunters don't see big bucks during daylight hours does not mean that there are no mature bucks. Big bucks get big and old for a reason. They are smarter than the smaller ones that get killed. If mature bucks are pressured by hunters they don't move out of their territory they just stay in the thick stuff and only come out after dark to breed, passing their smart genes on to the next generation.

[c.r.hunter]

That does not make sense. Just because hunters don't see big bucks during daylight hours does not mean that there are no mature bucks. Big bucks get big and old for a reason. They are smarter than the smaller ones that get killed. If mature bucks are pressured by hunters they don't move out of their territory they just stay in the thick stuff and only come out after dark to breed, passing their smart genes on to the next generation.

The season used to go to 4 point or better on Nov 1st as many of the deer were just starting to show up from their summer range. Loads of young 1.5 & 2.5 year old bucks would be running around like crazy and safe under the 4 point restriction. When they opened the any buck season to Nov 20th, those young bucks got hit hard. If a buck get's shot young, there's not much chance of it growing up. And the ones that make it through the season are likely smarter and learn to favour thick cover and darkness-as you mentioned. The difference is, before the doe cull and long any buck season, there were more mature bucks & more importantly(for those looking for a big one...LOL) more dumb ones. It basically changed from an area favoured by trophy hunters to meat hunters & now there trying to change it back? I can't complain as I understand the majority want meat. I havn't hunted there for a few years now, but perhaps I'll go back in a couple years.....

[GoatGuy]

Ask John the local rancher if he has even seen a big deer in the last five years?

Try to find a big shed in the area. They aren't there the last few years. All I find is puny 4's or fork horns.

In the area where the crews were slashing the conifer
ingrowth they were stacking all the sheds. Only one antler in the piles there that might have gone past the ears. (Perhaps they kept the big ones?)

Still don't understand what this has to do with genetics?

[pitbell]

Here you go GoatGuy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics

[cariboobill]

Hello:

I hunt Region 3 each year as I live near the Region 3/5 border. It is the same each year from Clinton across the river into Churn Creek. Lots of hunting camps and hunters driving around. If you find a spot away from the main hunting groups, it can be good. Finding a little hunny hole in the area can be hard, as there seems to be lots of access to the back country. Nice thing about hunting the Park areas, no vehicles in the back country off the roads.

I shed hunt each year which gives me an idea to where the bucks head late season to winter.

Good Luck

Cariboo Bill

[horshur]

Areas in 5 have been poorly managed and you all complaining may be evidence of this or not.....but where you are leading is primarily a knee jerk reaction....Fire the shitty managers not encourage them to be more restrictive!! they are who messed up and continue to mess up.

Best I can see I carried my Dad's and grandad's genes and could use them when I as twelve....buck mulie can use them when he is two. Genes do not season over time!!

[Jagermeister]

Predation, whether it be humans, wolves, coyotes, bears or cougars, will have a big impact on the prey population. Couple that with a severe winter and the prey population will diminish until such time when everything is again in balance.
Of course we can't reduce the human factor unless we restrict the hunting opportunities, something that we as hunters are not eager to endorse. And then factor in the G&Os, they certainly do not want to reduce their opportunties, so it is just not really workable.

I don't think that the cougar population is such that it is having a large impact, so that leaves wolves, coyotes and bears.

From the general discourse that has taken place on this forum, it would appear that the wolf population has expanded exponentially throughout the lower part of the province, particularly in regions 3 and 5. In the past few years, there has been an abundance of deer in these regions, again, particularly region 5, as road kill would suggest.

So it only stands to reason that wolf population would thrive and flourish as they are not themselves are not subject to an great amount of predation.

The way I see it, if hunter's want to maintain hunting opportunities, then hunters will have to put a greater emphasis on reducing the wolf population. Now, go out and shoot a wolf or two. With the way that snow piling up on the mountains, the ungulates will be low in the valleys and the wolves are sure to follow, making for an easier opportunity.

Sorry for the hijack on this gang ranch thread, but the post seems to be part and parcel to the thread.

[huntwriter]

Here you go GoatGuy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics

GoatGuy as are others involved in animal biology are perfectly aware what genetics are. I think what GoatGuy is wondering, as am I, is what genetics has to do with hunting? How do some people come to the conclusion that hunting mature bucks will have a negative impact on genetics?

Did you, and others, know that the doe genetics are just as important for producing large antlered bucks? Do you know that genetics alone are not responsible for large antlered deer but a host of other things play into it too? Things like nutrition, herd density and overall health condition of the herd among a few other things.:wink: Hunting and hunting pressure have very little influence on mature bucks. In fact the statistics show clearly that over 90% of the mature bucks are not killed by hunters but die of old age or accidents.

[Fisher-Dude]

LOL..... talked with one old timer that dropped over before his hot tub time YA A HOT TUB AT A HUNTING CAMP!!!!!! He talked that the numbers of big boys has dropped conciderabley and the amount of hunters in during this period shooting ALL the smaller bucks, the big guys do not leave the back area. this back area is in and about the 6000ft - 7000ft and is blocked be at least three feet of snow. the genetics in the area also is falling. He would like to see the end of the any buck period for region 5.


the way he was talking.... all the little guys are being shot out of the area at an alarming rate and the big guys are not venturing intothe area due to all the pressure so..... no good breeders..... no continuation of the blood lines!:-|

What? Since when does the DNA in a deer change as it ages? Perhaps your expert in the hot tub should educate himself about genetics. Perhaps you should understand that a drunk in a hot tub may not be the best source of genetic science information upon which to form your own opinions.

All that is needed to sustain a deer herd is a sperm supply. Some jurisdictions do it on buck:doe ratios as low as 4 or 5:100. Region 5 is at 19.3:100. A 2 year old passes the same genetics for antler growth and fawn health as he does when he is 6 years old. The doe's genetics also play a part in this equation. Hope this clears up your misconception that hunting smaller bucks leads to "falling genetics", whatever the hell that is.

[BBD77]

gang ranch, churn and empire are overplayed!!!!!!! could actually be the worst muley hunting out there!...i know this cause if hunted it several times and won't be going back!! i know some old timers that use to hunt it in the early 70's late 60's.... they use to see on average a dozen' bucks a day and pass up nice 140 class deer being to small......now people get out of control and battle for a two point there! ....in my opinion MOE should close it down period,for a decade or so!. give it a rest and let it rebound......for those who choose to hunt it....wear blaze orange!

[David Heitsman]

....in my opinion MOE should close it down period,for a decade or so!. give it a rest and let it rebound......

I sure you're a little tongue in cheek here but the area could use a rest.

Not mentioned so far is the simple fact that since the 'any buck' season extension a few years ago, fewer and fewer older deer are seen or taken.
The main factor in large antler growth is the ability to grow up. The average kills that I see hanging are likley two year olds.

A rest or return to the longer 4 pt season would help to accomplish this.

The CO will tell you as mentioned to me two years in a row that the harvest dent from the buck and doe kill is not slowing the growth of the herd. I have to believe them as that's their job but I don't see the numbers manifested on the ground, at least not during hunting season.

Someday I'll ride the lower Churn and over into Lone Cabin in January and see if indeed they ever do show up in the numbers that we are told are there. Perhaps they'll be easier to count when unmolested.

(There, see I didn't mention anything about a buck LEH!)

[PGK]

Lawn chair wildlife management at it's finest.

[f350ps]

In my humble opinion weather plays the most important role in the number of decent bucks you'll see in that area. Remember it is a wintering area. Go there in late Dec. or early Jan. and I think you'd have a different opinion of the area. Twenty years ago you'd have a tough time gettin in there the last week of Oct. and now there's barely any snow in December. K

[Gateholio]

If it sucks so bad, why not go somewhere else?:mrgreen:

[frenchbar]

If it sucks so bad, why not go somewhere else?:mrgreen:
:lol::lol: ya no kidding:mrgreen:

[MuleyStalker]

Regardless of whether or not the populations are falling or grow, I still came home empty handed. I do think that there are some nice bucks to be taken out of that area but I might just have to go about it a different way. Driving in at night, I have seen several nice 4x4s. But being somewhat new to hunting, any 4 point looks big to me. I still have lots to learn and look forward to trying out some new areas.

[MuleyStalker]

and whats this christmas party in vernon on the 19th?

[afors]

There was alot of pressure, after three days of hiking saw 4 bucks, a spike, a two point, three point and a four...the only one legal. The bigger boys were in bush with a bunch of does, through crunchy snow, couldn't get close.

Some of the guys in camp had LEH for does and they all filled them as there were plenty there to be had.

[Deadshot]

If it sucks so bad, why not go somewhere else?:mrgreen:
Yeah, Im thinking Pemberton.
Havent you heard? Its the new Clearwater.:-D

[frenchbar]

They should rename it the Gang "BANG" Ranch:mrgreen:

[born2hunt]

If it sucks so bad, why not go somewhere else?:mrgreen:
lol no doubt eh?
go figure?

[Gateholio]

Yeah, Im thinking Pemberton.
Havent you heard? Its the new Clearwater.:-D

There are no deer in Pemberton...:wink:

[Fisher-Dude]

The main factor in large antler growth is the ability to grow up.

A rest or return to the longer 4 pt season would help to accomplish this.


Really? Can you cite a scientific study of mule deer that indicates that the main factor in large antler growth is the ability to grow up? Can you explain how a buck with poor genetics will have large antlers at a later age?

Can you cite a study of mule deer that indicates that buck recruitment is necessary for antler genetics, as opposed to the widely-held view that a simple sperm supply is all that is needed with appropriate genetics to determine the antler profile of the resultant bucks?

Can you cite a scientific study of mule deer that shows how targeting mature bucks with a longer 4 point season will lead to more large antlered deer?

Everything I've read supports evidence to the contrary of what you're spouting. I'd love to read the contrarian studies that you surely must be quoting to support your desire to reduce opportunity for BC resident hunters.

It's funny, people go hunting and don't get anything, so there must not be any deer. David H rides around on a horse at the wrong time of the year for the Gang Ranch and doesn't see an easy cranker, and becomes a proponent of shutting things down so that he can nail an easy book buck (not that shutting things down WOULD accomplish this, but that's what he thinks).

Remind me WHY they call it "hunting" again??? :-?

[kootenayelkslayer]

Never thought I'd say it, but I agree with FD on this one. It sounds like a couple guys on this thread are confusing "genetics" with just "sperm" in general.

[David Heitsman]

I figured you'd crawl out from a hole somewhere FD.

Lets see, I shot a my first 4 X 4 145"+/- killed in 2004, back-packing up the Churn from the bridge. Also helped another friend take a 4 X 3 right on the Fraser that year.

Then took another 4 X 4 145" ish as well killed in 2005 backpacking from the ranch down onto the south side of McGhee while I was packing my friend's 4 X 3 back to the ranch. Had to make two trips in there on foot to pull him out as friend had to leave the next AM.

In 2006, took a 150" ish 4 X 4 on the Churn again while on foot. Was able to horse pack that one out the next day.

All 'easy crankers' I'm sure.

In 2007, didn't see a 4pt myself but friend took a 4 X 3
for sausage that was quite small.

In 2008, didn't see a 4 pt between either of us but friend took a small deer 3 X 3 for sausage.

In 2009, only saw 5 bucks total between us, none of any size.
All hunts are 5 - 7 full days. Most of the time well away from other hunters.

All hunts are within the same two week time period.

In 2007 and 2008, the CO from Williams Lake checks our deer and advises us that they are the biggest deer he had checked so far that season, either hanging in camp or in a vehicle heading out.

My 06 and 07 bucks were likewise inspected and declared average. He had checked much bigger deer.

Of course he must have missed all the big deer taken in 07, 08.

You don't have to read some PHD's "study" about animals in a National park to realize that the area is not like it used to be.

Seven consecutive years of river jetting, back packing and horseback and at least 50 days in the field is all the study I need to cite.

GH, Why do we go back?

That area is some of the nicest country to cross in our whole province. It's one of the few areas where I don't have to dodge beer cans bouncing out of all the pick up trucks or getting run over by a 50 mph ATV.

[huntwriter]

Never thought I'd say it, but I agree with FD on this one. It sounds like a couple guys on this thread are confusing "genetics" with just "sperm" in general.

Yes they do. Very few realize that there is much more to big antler producing bucks then just genetics. There is a whole host of other aspects that have to be just right too. If it where that easy QDM would not have become the science it is today.

[Aaron Blom]

If you live in BC you know about the MPB. We have and continue to clear vast amounts of "prime" mule deer winter range, this acording to the powers that be. I work in the bush and have observed on thing,,, they are not wintering where they used to. I have seen deer in January where they should not be according to the powers that be (and we are not talking about a small isolated herd). Douglas fir and grassland areas are much easier to hunt then balsam/spruce stands that go un-harvested (at this time) and, what are we creating esentially with these large clearcuts (for a few years at least) grasslands. I am amazed at how very few people actually hunt where the deer live, but I won't complain. I do agree that the month of November should be 4 point or better and a return to the GOS for a week or two on does re-opened as from what I have observed most hunters would be just as happy to take a nice fat, easy doe than a rutted up stinky 2 pointer, thus having no significant impact on the overall population. As for the Gang/Empire area it is over hunted and if you are looking for a cranker wait it out till the bow season or some very heavy/cold weather.

[GoatGuy]

Here you go GoatGuy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics

Thanks for the link! :wink:

Ya missed the point. Also watch out for wikipedia, there's some garbage that gets put on there regularly. It isn't an actual encyclopedia. The 'articles' are often biased and there's huge problems with accuracy in many articles. The problem with the 'collaborative' approach.

[c.r.hunter]

Really? Can you cite a scientific study of mule deer that indicates that the main factor in large antler growth is the ability to grow up? Can you explain how a buck with poor genetics will have large antlers at a later age?

Can you cite a study of mule deer that indicates that buck recruitment is necessary for antler genetics, as opposed to the widely-held view that a simple sperm supply is all that is needed with appropriate genetics to determine the antler profile of the resultant bucks?

Can you cite a scientific study of mule deer that shows how targeting mature bucks with a longer 4 point season will lead to more large antlered deer?

Everything I've read supports evidence to the contrary of what you're spouting. I'd love to read the contrarian studies that you surely must be quoting to support your desire to reduce opportunity for BC resident hunters.

It's funny, people go hunting and don't get anything, so there must not be any deer. David H rides around on a horse at the wrong time of the year for the Gang Ranch and doesn't see an easy cranker, and becomes a proponent of shutting things down so that he can nail an easy book buck (not that shutting things down WOULD accomplish this, but that's what he thinks).

Remind me WHY they call it "hunting" again??? :-?


I agree with most of your points and agree that genetics won't get lost by shooting young bucks. I do wonder why it would take a study to figure out that a deer shot a 2.5 will never grow to reach 4.5? If a greater number of bucks are shot at a young age, should that not dictate that there will be less older bucks the following years? This has nothing to do with genetics, and I'm not trying to be an armchair expert. It just makes sense to me that if you harvest a higher rate of young bucks, the result will be less older bucks down the road.

[GoatGuy]

I sure you're a little tongue in cheek here but the area could use a rest.

Not mentioned so far is the simple fact that since the 'any buck' season extension a few years ago, fewer and fewer older deer are seen or taken.
The main factor in large antler growth is the ability to grow up. The average kills that I see hanging are likley two year olds.

A rest or return to the longer 4 pt season would help to accomplish this.

The CO will tell you as mentioned to me two years in a row that the harvest dent from the buck and doe kill is not slowing the growth of the herd. I have to believe them as that's their job but I don't see the numbers manifested on the ground, at least not during hunting season.

Someday I'll ride the lower Churn and over into Lone Cabin in January and see if indeed they ever do show up in the numbers that we are told are there. Perhaps they'll be easier to count when unmolested.

(There, see I didn't mention anything about a buck LEH!)

So what you're saying has little to do with genetics.

If you want bigger bucks as you say age will help do that. The only way to get age is to bring the harvest down. You won't get 'big' or 'old' bucks on a 4 pt season, you'll only get more 4 pts, most of which will be cropped off no different than spikes would on an any buck. Instead of shooting 2 pts people will shoot 130-160" 4 pts - those are young bucks.

Buck kill has nothing to do with 'population growth', does control that. Not relevant to the conversation.

If you want to shoot big bucks there's a handful of spots I can think of that you can hunt off a horse that hold plenty of 160-170 bucks where you'll see 10 4 pts/day plus a bunch of other bucks. Having said that, I have no idea what you consider a 'big buck'.

If you want truly big bucks there you'll only get them with LEH in that area. It's simply too accessible and open. Even on a 20 day 4pt season outside of the rut I doubt you'll bring the harvest down enough to have big bucks wondering the grassland during the rut like you see in Alberta, nevermind the crowding issues you'd end up with that you don't seem to be a fan of.

If you want to shoot big bucks don't shoot the 150-170 class bucks. Like I said I don't know what you think a big buck is but if you want 180+ in BC you're gonna have to work a little harder for them AND you need to keep your finger off the trigger with the little bucks. The areas that have them aren't the ones that are easily accessed and usually don't hold high concentrations of deer. Most of them you won't see a hunter in either.

Hunters are smart enough to know where the big concentrations of mule deer are and where they winter - there's usually roads punched through most of those areas. You can see 200 deer and some small 4 pts or 20 deer and some old bucks in a week. It's your choice, really.

If you want to road horse hunt and shoot a big buck in that country LEH is about the only way you're going to do it.

[joelp37]

cousin just got back from the gang ranch. they ended up with three bucks in four days.

[Sitkaspruce]

Has anybody been hunting 50 miles back from the GR, in the migration route. When we used to hunt in in the late 80's, there were years that we did not find any bucks (other than a few residents) because there was very little snow to push them down. We would then travel back 20 or so miles until we found the snow. Then we would start to see the tracks and beds.

One of the CO's from WL is an old school friend of mine and he was telling me that some of the big bucks actually summer at the head of Knights Inlet and will only winter on the Fraser when there is a ton of snow in the backcountry. You do need the weather to get the deer on the ranch.

Some one need to go back 20-30 miles and hunt Big Creek and further back.

Oh and adding a 4 pt season only will not help the deer.

Cheers

SS

[GoatGuy]

I agree with most of your points and agree that genetics won't get lost by shooting young bucks. I do wonder why it would take a study to figure out that a deer shot a 2.5 will never grow to reach 4.5? If a greater number of bucks are shot at a young age, should that not dictate that there will be less older bucks the following years? This has nothing to do with genetics, and I'm not trying to be an armchair expert. It just makes sense to me that if you harvest a higher rate of young bucks, the result will be less older bucks down the road.

Shoot more at a young age and you'll end up with fewer older bucks. Makes sense.

The question is how many big bucks do you want and why?

[c.r.hunter]

Shoot more at a young age and you'll end up with fewer older bucks. Makes sense.

The question is how many big bucks do you want and why?

I don't really disagree with managing for maximum hunter opportunity. Sure I'd love an area loaded with big boys and no other hunters, but I'm also realistic. I don't think that only harvesting 4 point or better bucks specifically caused there to be more mature bucks in that area. What it did was reduce traffic, thus less bucks were likely shot regardless of antler configuration. Couple the late any buck season with a huge amount of doe draws and the area flooded with meat hunters late into November. There's nothing wrong with that, It just changed things in my experence. No big deal, I've found a new area that suits my needs. I myself am a meat hunter first and when the freezer's full I'll go look for a big boy in november.

[stitch]

I got a report in from a friend today that is camping above the ranch, in and around Georges bluff area. He said it is really warm...4 guys and only 1 4x3 in5 days of hunting. I remember 2 yrs ago it was minus 25 and everything was frozen solid.

[husky30-06]

What? Since when does the DNA in a deer change as it ages? Perhaps your expert in the hot tub should educate himself about genetics. Perhaps you should understand that a drunk in a hot tub may not be the best source of genetic science information upon which to form your own opinions.

All that is needed to sustain a deer herd is a sperm supply. Some jurisdictions do it on buck:doe ratios as low as 4 or 5:100. Region 5 is at 19.3:100. A 2 year old passes the same genetics for antler growth and fawn health as he does when he is 6 years old. The doe's genetics also play a part in this equation. Hope this clears up your misconception that hunting smaller bucks leads to "falling genetics", whatever the hell that is.

HOLD ON!!!!!!! I am no biologist...... I was just passing on the info. My personal thoughts on the matter is that the big guys are not down that far due to the over populating of hunters during the november hunts and lack of snow. I wanted and figured that getting as far back as possible was the only way to find the BIG fours. but i was not (for this year) prepared to head out that far. next year I would like to go back and try again, but this time head back as for as I can get by what means needed. as for genetics....I have no idea how it works, I only really wanted to see what the common thoughts were from here......BOY ARE THEY CUTTING:-?:-? I have my own areas to get big guys from I just wanted to explore other areas to get away from civilization. anyways... beautifull area and loved the long hikes.:)

[KB90]

I got a report in from a friend today that is camping above the ranch, in and around Georges bluff area. He said it is really warm...4 guys and only 1 4x3 in5 days of hunting. I remember 2 yrs ago it was minus 25 and everything was frozen solid.


Ahhhhh the global warming card???

Weather does vary year to year you know :mrgreen:

[Buckmaster]

Hunted at gang from the 6th -10th of November and we saw anywhere from 30-50 deer a day depending on the area/spot we were hunting. Also saw about 20 sheep a day. Out of those deer, we only saw 4 bucks. a 2 point, 1 spiker and 2 four pointers. Both 4 pointers were on the region 3 side and out of reach. It seemed like they were only coming out near dark or at dark.
We did see a guy shoot a doe in the ranch, open up the gate, drag the deer out on the other side of the fence, gut and half it right there. How desperate are guys getting?

[pupper]

We were above the gang ranch hunting from Nov 23-26 and all we saw was a doe and a 2pt buck the first morning. We hiked through the timber and saw lots of tracks but no deer. Nice scenery with the open grasslands and all, but I think that is what lead to too much pressure in the area. I wont go back there anytime soon.

[cariboobill]

There are a lot of First Nations, who's traditional territory is this area and hunt. In their traditional territory FN can harvest animals that are not noted in the regs. But do ask these hunters if you see them doing something that is not noted in the regs. There has been problems in this area and the CO's need to know.

Cheers,

CB

[Mik]

I have never hunted that area, however, I just finished reading a book, called "shes downhill and in the shade" by Chris Kind. He talks about the good ole' times hunting at Gang ranch. Pretty neat.

[Bud]

That does not make sense. Just because hunters don't see big bucks during daylight hours does not mean that there are no mature bucks. Big bucks get big and old for a reason. They are smarter than the smaller ones that get killed. If mature bucks are pressured by hunters they don't move out of their territory they just stay in the thick stuff and only come out after dark to breed, passing their smart genes on to the next generation.
Ive always thought the majority of the big bucks at the Gang Ranch are transient, so with all the pressure up there it makes sense that they would hold tight, and stay put untill they have to move down because of snow.

[Bud]

What? Since when does the DNA in a deer change as it ages? Perhaps your expert in the hot tub should educate himself about genetics. Perhaps you should understand that a drunk in a hot tub may not be the best source of genetic science information upon which to form your own opinions.

All that is needed to sustain a deer herd is a sperm supply. Some jurisdictions do it on buck:doe ratios as low as 4 or 5:100. Region 5 is at 19.3:100. A 2 year old passes the same genetics for antler growth and fawn health as he does when he is 6 years old. The doe's genetics also play a part in this equation. Hope this clears up your misconception that hunting smaller bucks leads to "falling genetics", whatever the hell that is.
some of those old timers that have hunted up there longer than me and you put together know more about deer and the land and how things all tie in together,than some skinny little pencil neck in a lab coat sitting in front of a computer trying to forcast deer populations and what affects them will ever know. I think they should be out talking to people like that as well as the ranchers, the old ranch hands, and cowboys that are out there all year round, not just during hunting season

[PGK]

some of those old timers that have hunted up there longer than me and you put together know more about deer and the land and how things all tie in together,than some skinny little pencil neck in a lab coat sitting in front of a computer trying to forcast deer populations and what affects them will ever know. I think they should be out talking to people like that as well as the ranchers, the old ranch hands, and cowboys that are out there all year round, not just during hunting season


..........

[Bud]

Actually, the reg5 biologists spend a lot of time hunting in churn, maybe you should shut up unless you know what you're talking about.
Ya sure and your the expert right, from what Ive seen up there, I just got back this afternoon, from when I was there last about 10-13 years ago, it really seems like they are ontop of it alright. I used to see 20- 30 deer per day, Now in the same spot just a little bit of old sign in the snow a track here and there, pretty pathetic if you ask me, do you really think they are doing a such a great job up there with some of the decisions that have been made?
if so you really have your head up yo.......... ok I'm not getting into this with you the biologists are always right, they know everything..... you win

[PGK]

Ya sure and your the expert right, from what Ive seen up there, I just got back this afternoon, from when I was there last about 10-13 years ago, it really seems like they are ontop of it alright. I used to see 20- 30 deer per day, Now in the same spot just a little bit of old sign in the snow a track here and there, pretty pathetic if you ask me, do you really think they are doing a such a great job up there with some of the decisions that have been made?
if so you really have your head up yo.......... ok I'm not getting into this with you the biologists are always right, they know everything..... you win

See, this is why I love deer. They're smarter than people. People hunt the same spots year in year out, expect the deer to just be standing there, waiting to die. But it's the effin biologist's fault. Eff that.

[Bud]

See, this is why I love deer. They're smarter than people. People hunt the same spots year in year out, expect the deer to just be standing there, waiting to die. But it's the effin biologist's fault. Eff that.
ok look you clown, I just said I hadn't been to that spot in quite a while, look at my avatar, does that look like a Gang ranch deer to you? give your head a shake moron, all I said was they should be paying attention to the people that have been there a long time to help in the decision making process and see day in day out whats going on, Ive seen it with the fisheries biologists as well, they think they know everything, well you know what? they don't. I worked with them at Rivers Inlet and the freakin locals knew more about the timing, sizes of the Spring run and how far up the rivers they went, the "expert" Biologists were way off, they just have "an educated guess." and a poor one at that. I'm not saying I'm an expert, and i don't have the answers. I'm saying in my opinion what they are doing isn't helping, its making it worse
I'M DONE

[Fisher-Dude]

some of those old timers that have hunted up there longer than me and you put together know more about deer and the land and how things all tie in together,than some skinny little pencil neck in a lab coat sitting in front of a computer trying to forcast deer populations and what affects them will ever know. I think they should be out talking to people like that as well as the ranchers, the old ranch hands, and cowboys that are out there all year round, not just during hunting season

Anecdotal evidence is not especially reliable when formulating wildlife policy. When a rancher is looking for crop depredation restitution, he might exaggerate one way or the other. Scientific inventories are much more reliable. Of course, you've done nothing to lobby government for funds to put some "pencil necks" in aircraft for a few hours, have you? :-|

[PGK]

Some of us are actually from you know, up here, and we uh, you know, participate. Eg: I worked in the building, I might have a better idea than some dude named 'bud' from the internet.

[Elkhound]

get back to the original topic. Any more insults or name calling I will ban whoever did it. I wont even care who started it.

[SteadyGirl]

group hug?:tongue:

[308Lover]

When I'm dressing out my deer, the "anecdotal" part becomes quite reliable.

[MB_Boy]

RIGHT ON!
Besides Reg. 5 biologists should be counting deer by air or foot instead of hunting!


Just as a side note.....do you know that they wait until there is snow on the ground before they are going to spend money chartering a plane to do population surveys? Generally for the most part....they are going to wait until a time of the year that there will be a "guarantee" of snow on the ground which for the most part is not going to be in the 3+ months of deer season in BC. Snow facilitates the spotting of a brownish animal in the bush and provides a "canvas/backdrop" which makes it easier to determine species, sex etc. Kinda like why so many hunters like it when there is some snow on the ground to chase deer. :wink:

Also....can you imagine the backlash from hunters if a plane was flying in a grid all day in various areas during the season trying to count animals being pursued by hunters?

Hence....bio's (who hunt) are smart to get out and enjoy their time in the outdoors hunting; during the hunting season with the rest of the hunters! At least they aren't straining their "skinny little pencil necks in a lab coat sitting in front of a computer trying to forcast deer populations and what affects them." It would appear as though a number of people think it's better to be out in the field.....what better way to do it than hunting! :wink:

[MikeH]

Just wondering how people made out for the re-opening at Gang Ranch, Empire Valley, Churn Creek. My brother and I came home unsuccessful but did manage to see a 4-point. Neither of us felt comfortable shooting at it as it was 350-400 yards away. Need to do some more shooting to be ready for next time.
Would have dropped it:-D

[EvanG]

well lets see its +2 and sunny today, no reason for the deer to be in the winter range.


Just sounds like alot of whinning by guys who couldnt seal the deal this year, but if you excuse me rather than sling insults from behind a computer Iam gonna go give er one last shot.

[rides bike to work]

Has this area bounced back with the new since then regulations

[dog812]

Wow last post in 2009..
..i go every year, I'd say it's over run with hunters.. But I still like hunting there. Last year was probably the worst year so far. Saw more hunters then deer even... With not as many big guys taken out. Hoping this year everyone stays home. Just need to hike further then everyone else. .. But I got a leh doe tag, so won't matter much to be in the end.

[finngun]

Just wondering how people made out for the re-opening at Gang Ranch, Empire Valley, Churn Creek. My brother and I came home unsuccessful but did manage to see a 4-point. Neither of us felt comfortable shooting at it as it was 350-400 yards away. Need to do some more shooting to be ready for next time.

Very good call sir..not to shoot,,if not practice long distance shooting..wounded animal gives really bad hunting feeling ..
Like ya said..lots of bullet through barrel gives maybe next time chance nail deer with no problem..cheers f-g:wink:

[chromehunter]

Good area, went on a trip and my buddy shot a 170 class buck
get off the road and focus where you know there are deer!
i would see 20-30 deer a day and best day for bucks I counted 17,
3 being 4 points and I shot one! Fun hunting !!!