GOABC - Sugarcoating

[bighornbob]

Not sure how many people saw it or in how many papers it was in but, the GOABC has a 1/4 page add in todays Kamloops paper. The jist of the add is that they are all for wildlife populations etc and LEH is an important management tool and we the hunters of BC should stick with them.

I will try and scan the add and place it here.

BHB

[wetcoasthunter]

Me thinks someone at the GOABC read the LEH review and is getting worried. Love to see them squirm. This report must have SOME influence otherwise the GO's wouldn't even bother.

[BCrams]

It is in the Prince George paper. (really buttering it up)

I think the add has more to do with the "Resident Hunter Preservation Fund" ....

Fight fire with fire and all of a sudden they're on the defensive.

The offensive postering and suppression by the GOABC against resident hunters, resident recruitment and resident opportunity needs to stop.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not sure how many people saw it or in how many papers it was in but, the GOABC has a 1/4 page add in todays Kamloops paper. The jist of the add is that they are all for wildlife populations etc and LEH is an important management tool and we the hunters of BC should stick with them.

I will try and scan the add and place it here.

BHB


Yep. There back spending some of that $700,000-800,000 that the bring in every yr.
The GOABC lobbiest dude has been phoning up taxis(people that rely on trophy animals) and telling them that the FED guys are going to ruin hunting and populations for everyone.

SSS

[Devilbear]

Time for the GOABC to go "bye bye" and BC citizens to control our own wildlife for our needs.

[pitbell]

I know right! Those *******S! How dare they try to properly manage the wildlife of British Columbia so that they can book quality hunts to feed their families! Why can't they just book calf moose hunts!
SONS O' BITCHES!:wink:

[whitetailsheds]

Just saw a BCWF 1/4 page ad as well in a local paper. Nice to see it countered the GOABC timing.

[Devilbear]

The statutory responsibility and right to manage B.C.'s various resources is vested in The Crown of British Columbia and advocacy groups, such as the GOABC have no rights or duties in respect of this.

...quality hunts...like spotting sheep, goats and elk from aircraft and then radioing the GPS coordinates to the "guide" who is not even a BCer, who then leads some fatazz foreigner to kill or wound this "trophy"....quality????

Some now are daughters..................

[BCrams]

This was taken from the GOABC "quality hunting" website.

Resident hunters need to really think twice and be careful before buying into the 'quality hunting' mantra. It has severe repercussions for resident hunters and opportunities to hunt.

Here is an excerpt from their website (in quotes):


Residents for Quality Hunting



Because of simple supply and demand characteristics of wildlife populations and hunter numbers, some species must be managed through antler restrictions or Limited Entry Hunting (LEH) to control the harvest.

What you don't know. GOABC sees the LEH hunts and antler / point restrictions as a means to "limit" resident hunters and resident opportunity.

Quality hunting = less residents hunting to conflict with guided non-resident hunters.

Why are they pushing for LEH sheep hunts right now???
Why are they pushing to remove spike / fork moose seasons right now???
Why are they pushing for more restrictive seasons which impact resident hunters right now???Remember, none of this impacts non-resident hunters!!!

Just you, we, us resident hunters !!!




Many hunters enjoy the LEH hunts because of the increased chances of harvesting an animal and the reduced competition from other hunters.

Lets clarify this one and put it in laymans terms.......

Reduced competition for their non-resident guided clients!!
Hunters that are successful in LEH draws typically see more game and harvest larger mature animals.

The majority of hunters are meat hunters first then meat / selective. Residents typically do not want to harvest larger mature animals. They just want to hunt and have opportunity.




Antler and/or horn restrictions have a similar effect.


GOABC want more restrictions put on resident hunters. This puts more emphasis on trophy animals available for non-resident clients and fewer residents hunters in the woods.



This contributes to the quality of the hunting experience.

This contributes greatly to non-resident 'quality' for trophy hunting.

It has nothing to do with quality hunting for resident hunters. There are fewer resident hunters out and about hunting under this mantra.



It is important for hunter recruitment that new hunters are exposed to quality outdoor experiences.

What a lie. They are opposed to resident recruitment and opportunity.

This is highlighted in their report to the Ministry.

GOABC are doing everything they can to SUPPRESS resident opportunity.

They are trying to sell it under the disguise of 'quality hunting'. Reality is that it will hurt us resident hunters.


The hunting experience allows people to spend time with friends and family as well as providing the opportunity to harvest an animal.

Can't do that with restrictive point restrictions and LEH.

Try telling your son/daughter they cannot shoot the 2 point buck or 4 point bull elk or spike bull moose or calf moose to fill the freezer.

Imagine all the years I (and others) would not have been able to go hunting locally to get a calf moose or 2 point bull moose without these opportunities.

I would have had a grand total of 3 bull moose in 20 years relying only on the LEH in 7a. Is that quality??

I can't tell you how many enjoyable moose hunts and days I have been able to spend afield with my father and friends looking for calf moose and 2 pt moose.

This year was a highlight taking a new hunter out for the first time on a successful foray for calf moose. Imagine telling my nephew we can't go afield for moose until getting a LEH draw ..... of which I have only been drawn 3x for bulls in 7a in 20 years.

Take it away and you take away that quality experience with friends / family and hunting opportunity.



Some hunters hunt just for the meat while others are more selective.

Come on ...... the majority of guided clients are trophy hunters and want to come up here and see the woods void of resident hunters.

The majority of resident hunters fall under meat hunting first.


Managing for a quality experience is biologically sound and appreciated by many outdoor enthusiasts. Antler restrictions and LEH are methods used to provide quality experiences.

For whom???? Wait.....we already know.... for your non-resident hunter.

Proof is in the pudding......pushing for antler restrictions and LEH ... you know you're limiting resident hunters.

Its time the resident hunters and non-hunting public of British Columbia really understand the true objectives of the GOABC. That is to limit / suppress resident hunters as much as possible for the gain of non-resident american hunters.

That was one biased survey if I ever saw one on the website.

[Devilbear]

Well, not to repeat myself, BUT, if "non-resident alien" hunting here were banned, then, this problem would disappear..............

[yukon john]

just something to think about before hang some guides (many of whom are on this site) or outfitters. Outfitting is a business that uses a natural resource any time you utilize a natural resource you are going to have opposition. A huge portion of the hbc membership works in oil and gas or in forestry and while they are making a living they are also making some foreigner rich off bc resources. Is it so wrong for some fat American to pay forty thousand for a bc sheep when he made that money getting you to cut down trees or drill a rig? hey it brings jobs into bc

[BCrams]

just something to think about before hang some guides (many of whom are on this site) or outfitters. Outfitting is a business that uses a natural resource any time you utilize a natural resource you are going to have opposition. A huge portion of the hbc membership works in oil and gas or in forestry and while they are making a living they are also making some foreigner rich off bc resources. Is it so wrong for some fat American to pay forty thousand for a bc sheep when he made that money getting you to cut down trees or drill a rig? hey it brings jobs into bc

Most of us are not opposed to the guide outfitting business.

Lately, the GOABC are doing all they can to suppress resident hunter opportunity and recruitment. An agenda, which in my opinion, has gone too far and for too long.

Its not wrong for an american to pay 40, 000 for a sheep hunt. What I see wrong is the GOABC wanting and pushing for LEH for all sheep in BC (tip of the iceberg example)

[Everett]

Most of us are not opposed to the guide outfitting business.

Lately, the GOABC are doing all they can to suppress resident hunter opportunity and recruitment. An agenda, which in my opinion, has gone too far and for too long.

Its not wrong for an american to pay 40, 000 for a sheep hunt. What I see wrong is the GOABC wanting and pushing for LEH for all sheep in BC.

Its not that we are against the GOABC it is the fact that they are against us the resident hunters. The GOABC started this fight and with a little work we the residents will end it. My personal feeling are the industry should be shut down comepletly in southern BC.

[Everett]

Well, not to repeat myself, BUT, if "non-resident alien" hunting here were banned, then, this problem would disappear..............

This is the stick we need to use in our battle with the GOABC. We need to remind goverment that foreigners don't vote in provincial elections but 88, 000 hunters and there families do. This is were the BCWF should be playing hard ball tell the political parties that they will endorse which ever party promises to end "foreign hunting in BC"

[Triggerman]

I believe the report on LEH clearly demonstrates both the dissastisfaction of the LEH system with Resident Hunters but also the ineffectiveness of the current Wildlife Management policies in general.

It's been a long time coming and now these "systems" that determine opportunity and Management, which may have given Resident Hunters a raw deal, should be scrutinized and changed.

If the ultimate goal is to properly manage the Game, give Resident Hunters proper allocation and opportunity, and allow the GOs a reasonable amount, let's hope the Government takes the appropriate steps to change what obviously is broken and make it fair to everyone.

I encourage everyone to write or e-mail there respective clubs, MLA and the Ministry responsible to fix the system. Otherwise the report will die a fast death and get buried!

:neutral:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

It's been said on here on more than one occassion.....If Residents need to be put on LEH for a species in an area, then there should be ZERO Guided clients in that area for that species in that area. If we can accomplish this, the GOABC would ceratinly change their tune when it comes to attempting to get resident hunters on LEH

Hierarchy is..

1)conservation..and if that is met..

2)First Nation Harvest...and if that need is met...

3) resident harvest...and if that need is met.....and ONLY then

4) non-resident harvest

Time to get back to basics!!

SSS

[silvicon]

as resident hunter, i feel we have already ample allocation and opportunity.
if a person does not use it, it surly is not the GO's fault.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

as resident hunter, i feel we have already ample allocation and opportunity.
if a person does not use it, it surly is not the GO's fault.

As a Resident hunter?? What about the other shoe??

SSS

[Devilbear]

My list of priorities is:

Resident BC citizens, NO special status by race, UNLESS ONLY traditional pre-Euro. contact technology is used in a "traditional" hunt.

Canadian citizens, accompanied by a B.C. resident and ANY species should be available, no restrictions on sheep, for example.

Conservation is a "given" and I am about ready to vote for ANY party that will ban the current situation and BOOT foreign GOs OUT of B.C....especially the twice-convicted poacher, Bryan Martin.

Other users, well, I see no valid reason to allow foreign hunting here, BUT, I realize that some BC guys have friends and relatives in the US and other foreign countries, whom they would like to bring here to hunt and I am certainly supportive of that, insofar as it does not impinge on resident's opportunities in any way.

Change IS needed and we should get it done and soon!

[KevinB]

very good post Rams.

And DB I think that stance may very well be what's needed. If there aren't enough animals to go around to satisfy the wants/needs of resident hunters, then non-resident opportunities should be non-existent or severely restricted. We own the wildlife and it should be managed to maximize the enjoyment/benefit of resident hunters.

The problem is, the government tends to see a resource (be it trees, gold deposits, or wildlife) in terms of how it can provide maximum perceived $$ benefit to the "crown". Resident hunters however tend to see the wildlife resource in terms of how it can support their way of life. Two very different ways of looking at things.

[KevinB]

just something to think about before hang some guides (many of whom are on this site) or outfitters. Outfitting is a business that uses a natural resource any time you utilize a natural resource you are going to have opposition. A huge portion of the hbc membership works in oil and gas or in forestry and while they are making a living they are also making some foreigner rich off bc resources. Is it so wrong for some fat American to pay forty thousand for a bc sheep when he made that money getting you to cut down trees or drill a rig? hey it brings jobs into bc

Nothing wrong with a rich fat american paying 40 grand for a BC sheep, as long as residents have enough to satisfy their needs. Someone's providing a service, and the market tends to dictate what they can charge for that.

But here's a better analogy... what if you were told that you could only turn on your furnace every fifth day because there wasn't enough natural gas to go around (even though there was), while at the same time, a private company was selling that very same BC-owned gas to a rich fat american for their own profit? And what if that same private company was lobbying the government to even further restrict the resident usage of natural gas? What would you have to say about that?

I'm sure you'd have a "quality" heating experience every fifth day - sure would seem nice after freezing for the other four days.

[Kody94]

Nothing wrong with a rich fat american paying 40 grand for a BC sheep. Someone's providing a service, and the market tends to dictate what they can charge for that.

But here's a better analogy... what if you were told that you could only turn on your furnace every fifth day because there wasn't enough natural gas to go around (even though there was), while at the same time, a private company was selling that very same BC-owned gas to a rich fat american for their own profit? And what if that same private company was lobbying the government to even further restrict the resident usage of natural gas? What would you have to say about that?

I'm sure you'd have a "quality" heating experience every fifth day - sure would seem nice after freezing for the other four days.

Good analogy. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Gateholio]

Anybody got a link?

[Kody94]

It's been said on here on more than one occassion.....If Residents need to be put on LEH for a species in an area, then there should be ZERO Guided clients in that area for that species in that area. If we can accomplish this, the GOABC would ceratinly change their tune when it comes to attempting to get resident hunters on LEH

Hierarchy is..

1)conservation..and if that is met..

2)First Nation Harvest...and if that need is met...

3) resident harvest...and if that need is met.....and ONLY then

4) non-resident harvest

Time to get back to basics!!

SSS

I have often said that if an animal is on LEH, it should only be available for residents. I have softened my opinion on that a little over the last while though. G/O's and wealthy clients that can help us lobby to maintain our hunting rights are a good thing. They definitely helped during the "grizzly crisis" 8 years ago. A little help can go a long way.

My current opinion is thus: if a species is on GOS, the allocation split of 75% resident to 25% non-resident is just fine. If a species is on LEH, however, the split should be at least 90% resident and 10% non-resident....and maybe less (somewhere between 5 and 10 for non-residents).

[Devilbear]

I will not hesitate to do whatever it takes to stop foreign hunters here in B.C. from having any access to any of our game, if even ONE B.C. citizen is restricted by L.E.H. This is especially the case in the Kootenays and if I am down in the "Flathead" and some loudmouth Yankee or rich, arrogant Euro. is hunting there with a GO, I will very bluntly and forcefully tell him to get the f**k out of MY country, end of freakin' story.

A couple of years ago, I contacted an immigrant GO in northern B.C. concerning a possible hunt and initially spoke with his wife, who is, I understand, a Canadian. She was fine and so I called back, when she had told me to, and spoke with this bighatted, mouthy and tough talking azzhole, who was REALLY RUDE to me on the phone....doesn't really want to "guide" residents.......

Well, NO "cowboy clyde" from "Dipshitt" YEWESSAAA, is EVER going to speak to me like that in B.C. and I will see such Yankee baztards OUT of this province and our hunting....no matter what it takes and I am NOT the only guy I know who feels this way and has more bush experience than 20 such "Kaowboyz" from "Y'all" country.

Maybe some serious "blockades" might convince Victoria that WE have RIGHTS and WE do NOT want to sell them for 40K or whatever, just so some Texan dickwad can play "mountain man" with our game....keep them all out!

[bridger]

well said everyone. the goabc also had a sweetheard ad in the prince george paper today and are putting the heat on the bcwf executive so they must be getting antsy. quality hunting means more opportunities for non resident hunters and fewer for us.. that simple. the resident angler an hunter preservation fund is going to turn up the heat some more the fund needs fund so please support it as much as you can. thanks

[blacklab]

The point has to be made that non resident hunters and the guide outfitters do not spend the money in small remote communities that resident hunters do. I have often said we should be lobbying the chambers of commerce of some of these communities to pressure the government to allow more resident hunter opportunity. Our money spent in these small towns will benefit them, rather than a booking agent in Denver , LA or Frankfurt.

[Devilbear]

Very good point and one that would, IMO, help us in our fight to preserve what is OURS.

[6616]

Nothing wrong with a rich fat american paying 40 grand for a BC sheep, as long as residents have enough to satisfy their needs. Someone's providing a service, and the market tends to dictate what they can charge for that.

But here's a better analogy... what if you were told that you could only turn on your furnace every fifth day because there wasn't enough natural gas to go around (even though there was), while at the same time, a private company was selling that very same BC-owned gas to a rich fat american for their own profit? And what if that same private company was lobbying the government to even further restrict the resident usage of natural gas? What would you have to say about that?

I'm sure you'd have a "quality" heating experience every fifth day - sure would seem nice after freezing for the other four days.

To make the analogy even more correct in terms of resident hunting: there would be no real shortage of natural gas (hunting opportunities) just a screwed up delivery service that has trouble getting it to the BC customers. In other words there are a huge number of potential hunting opportunties in BC that are being squandered and not used because of overly conservative wildlife management and inappropriate administration of LEH.

[bridger]

just something to think about before hang some guides (many of whom are on this site) or outfitters. Outfitting is a business that uses a natural resource any time you utilize a natural resource you are going to have opposition. A huge portion of the hbc membership works in oil and gas or in forestry and while they are making a living they are also making some foreigner rich off bc resources. Is it so wrong for some fat American to pay forty thousand for a bc sheep when he made that money getting you to cut down trees or drill a rig? hey it brings jobs into bc


I have supported the concept of a guiding industry and non resident hunting in our province from day one but the present guiding industry is really run by international hunting companies that could care less about resident hunter opportunity. the viability paper they presented government is pretty good proof of that.Unfortunately assistant guides and wranglers get caught up in the mess but i am not going to now or ever accept quality hunting across the province or any leh when non residents harvest the majority of the aah. few people realize that the bc government (us) subsidize the guiding industry with millions of dollars each year and in turn they try and reduce our hunting and harvest opportunities. Sorry, bullshit is bullshit no matter how much honey the goabc puts on it.

[Squirrelnuts]

as resident hunter, i feel we have already ample allocation and opportunity.
if a person does not use it, it surly is not the GO's fault.

Resident hunter and a guide, right? In fact, weren't you the guy that was bragging about getting a moose draw that you had no intention of using in order to keep the "residents" out of your area?

Yup... http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=307028&postcount=315


moose in our guiding area.
and no, I won't use the tag.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=23442&page=33


any moose tag a guide ties up keeps one resident hunter
(and possible a few hangers-on) out of the area.

[PGK]

Hmmm looks like I can lump silvicon into the group of people who apply for gbear tags to save them from being shot...real classy move...real classy.

[kebes]

as resident hunter, i feel we have already ample allocation and opportunity.
if a person does not use it, it surly is not the GO's fault.


Nice try.....

[Chuck]

Politics - the dung heap that stinks up everything!

[boxhitch]

..........few people realize that the bc government (us) subsidize the guiding industry with millions of dollars each year and in turn they try and reduce our hunting and harvest opportunities. ........That in itself deserves a new thread, to show how they are subsidized. Some solid facts would prove a point.

[boxhitch]

Politics - the dung heap that stinks up everything!So they make muck boots and scoop shovels to deal with it.

[luckynuts]

well said everyone. the goabc also had a sweetheard ad in the prince george paper today and are putting the heat on the bcwf executive so they must be getting antsy. quality hunting means more opportunities for non resident hunters and fewer for us.. that simple. the resident angler an hunter preservation fund is going to turn up the heat some more the fund needs fund so please support it as much as you can. thanks


I see that BCWF has taken out an ad in the Northern today page 2. Asking every resident hunter to write into your MLA and let them know how you feel. Also asking for more support as well. Best be writing a letter and a cheque. Damned if I will let the outfitters win this one I have 2 boys that I would like to be able to hunt with as long as I can walk and hold a gun.

[kebes]

Can somebody post that link where you can type in your postal code and it comes up with your rep?

[bogtrotter]

I agree with previous posters - how does guided hunting benefit the BC economy ? I think the largest chunk of the "foreigner's" fees goes straight into the guide's pocket. There is some local spending but only for a few weeks or months each year. Perhaps we benefit because the licence fees raised from non-residents are set aside and used for purposes that benefit BC residents. LOL. I am guessing that the extra revenues from non-residents don't stay very long with the MoE. Straight to general revenue to pay for the hospitals.

[MadCat]

Sorry but I don't buy into all the comments that I hear about banning all foreign hunting. I think that there is alot of crap that goes on in the outfitting here in BC but I think that to say ban all foreigners will get us no where. I think that one step that we should be looking at is making sure that the outfitts here are owned and operated by residents of Canada. I have a few friends that are outfitters, that live here and were born here in BC and I don't see them as the "gotta get rid of all the local hunters" type as you guys are portraying them as. I think that we need a balance between both resident and non-resident hunting, but I think that we do need both. I for one hope to one day hunt somewhere outside this country, if I can aford it, and I think that others deseve the same right.

[Buckmeister]

I don't mind if non-residents want to come here and hunt, but NOT at the expense of my own (or my kids) hunting rights. There is more than enough viable hunting areas in this province to go around for everyone. B.C. is a HUGE chunk of property, so huge that probally only a small percentage of it actually gets hunted. Granted, many areas are hard to get into, and thus rarely get hunted. But I would tend to think that the meat hunters are sticking to the areas that more easily accessible. If non-residents want to hunt here, then take them into the hard to get to areas and get a real taste of B.C, and make them pay for the experience.
They want 'quality', heck we already have it, and have had it forever. Why restrict us??

[6616]

Can somebody post that link where you can type in your postal code and it comes up with your rep?


http://www.leg.bc.ca/mla/3-1-1.htm

[bridger]

there is lots of opportunity for non residents to hunt in bc and i hope there always is but they come second. As residents we have to understand what is really happening to our opportunites. The goabc wants all species in the province to be managed for quality hunting. they want only big bucks, big bulls, big rams etc harvested because they can sell big for more money to non residents. Believe me they could care less about a resident who wants to shoot a meat animal. They want no young bulls, bucks or rams harvested by residents and are pushing this agenda big time with the moe at both the provincial and regional levels. the mule deer season in region five is a good example. Resident sheep hunters in region 6 get shafted every year and if present policies by moe are allowed to continue bighorn hunting opportunites for residents in the kootenay's are going to be reduced. the list goes on. Do not buy into the goabc's quality hunting push. quality means more opportunities for non residents and fewer for us. The ad's they are running in the newspapers and the bs they have on their website are meant to divide residents across the province. don't let that happen.

[gibblewabble]

just something to think about before hang some guides (many of whom are on this site) or outfitters. Outfitting is a business that uses a natural resource any time you utilize a natural resource you are going to have opposition. A huge portion of the hbc membership works in oil and gas or in forestry and while they are making a living they are also making some foreigner rich off bc resources. Is it so wrong for some fat American to pay forty thousand for a bc sheep when he made that money getting you to cut down trees or drill a rig? hey it brings jobs into bc
We who work in oil and gas as well as the forest industry do not try to take away the rights of the residents of this province to use these resources for recreation as GOABC is trying to do. I dont mind having someone come in from out of country to hunt as long as it does not impinge upon my rights to use the "resource" first, my grandfather was a guide and I used to enjoy seeing the same clients every year, but I live here and I want to hunt with my children and not have a system like in Europe. I agree with StoneSheepSteve if we have to manage the species with LEH then there should be NO non-resident hunting.

And I for one have sent a letter to my MLA expressing my sentiments.
And to Silvicon I guess there has to be an ASSHAT in every crowd at least I know one of the ones in mine.

[Devilbear]

Very well said and I agree. However, we should distinguish between "non-resident" and "non-resident ALIEN" hunting here as I WANT to share BC resources with other CANADIANS, but, not with foreigners.

The time when we could, with impunity, allow foreign access to our fish and wildlife are long past and we NEED these resources for our own use and therefore must ban all non-Canadian access to them.

[kebes]

Very well said and I agree. However, we should distinguish between "non-resident" and "non-resident ALIEN" hunting here as I WANT to share BC resources with other CANADIANS, but, not with foreigners.

The time when we could, with impunity, allow foreign access to our fish and wildlife are long past and we NEED these resources for our own use and therefore must ban all non-Canadian access to them.''

Really, ban all non-Canadian access? I would love to go on a guided hunt in the U.S rockies or possibly some sort of african trip, I think people around the world have the same right. That being said, first priority should go to residents, and if that's not happening then there's an issue!

[gibblewabble]

I agree to all canadian acces I want to hunt caribou in the Yukon one day.

[Devilbear]

''

Really, ban all non-Canadian access? I would love to go on a guided hunt in the U.S rockies or possibly some sort of african trip, I think people around the world have the same right. That being said, first priority should go to residents, and if that's not happening then there's an issue!


Well, it IS NOT happening, the GOABC IS doing anything they can to further restrict OUR access to OUR game, so, there dammed well IS an issue, that's the point of this thread.

People ...around the world...have NO repeat NO ...right... to ANYTHING here in Canada and it is high time that this was more clearly codified in law and demonstrated in practice. YOUR desires to do whatever in foreign venues are not relevant as the decisions concerning activities in the US or African nations are, properly, the right of the citizens thereof and are not our concern.

Why should we "trade" access to our wildlife-hunting just so a very few people can feel that they would be welcomed when hunting elsewhere? What about other CANADIANS and THEIR DESIRES to hunt B.C.???

The fact is that we have what many foreigners want and we do not have enough to practically give it away, as we have been doing for 150+ years. The devastation of Kootenay Lake fishing by the "Columbia River Treaty" plus HUGE Yankee use of the vulnerable salmonid fishery there has resulted in our being unable to harvest the fish we need and which are OURS!

[Gateholio]

So...Anybody got alink to the story?:mrgreen:

[Mooseman]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/MoosemanBC/GOABCImportantMessageAd.jpg


The ad is just our way of informing the public about what we stand for. We care about wildlife, healthy populations, and proper management so that “everyone” (First Nations, Resident, and Non-Resident Hunters) can have an opportunity for a successful and quality hunting experience. We depend on it and the results will benefit all.

We also know that most resident hunters care for quality experiences, healthy game populations and science based wildlife management.

Think about this: I said it before and am happy to repeat, that many of our 5000 clients that enjoy our province as a hunting destination every year are to be thanked for what they do for all of us. You can also thank many Guide Outfitters for donating hunts to organisations that fight and lobby for your hunting rights. These are battles fought in EU and US courts, Washington, DC and other places that decide and influence decisions that affect all of us.

We also raise funds for Ungulate enhancement projects that have a direct positive impact on game populations that all hunters benefit from.
The handful of individuals demanding an end to the Guide Outfitters in BC are very much misleading and mislead. The benefits of our industry are not only financial, sustaining small family businesses in rural BC, offer jobs in a field that many love to work in, they also come in the form of international lobbying power for hunters and gun owners. We create habitat and manage our areas to the best of our abilities to increase game populations through various programs, we host wildlife workshops that attract top wildlife biologists from around the world to help find the best management tools available, and we lobby other industries to help protect wildlife and habitat while they conduct their business out there. All of the above are benefitting all hunters.
Would hunting in BC really be better without a Guiding industry? The cost of us being here is +- 25% of the allocation share and 2% for the antlerless allocation share. I bet the things we do for hunting and wildlife in BC outweigh what we harvest with our clients.

In conclusion,
I truly believe that the day we look at our self as one, “hunters” is the day we actually all gained something. We have much more in common then not and should work on getting more game out there together vs. fighting in meetings or cyberspace. The real battles for hunting in BC are yet to come and they are not resident hunter vs. guides.

[mark]

I have never had a problem with an outfitter, nor a reason to dislike them....BUT... the more I hear about the GOAB trying to restrict my oppotunity, the more I find reason to hate them!
Actually makes me feel vengeful!
Makes me want to follow them into their areas and ruin their "quality hunt" with their clients!

[Mooseman]

I have never had a problem with an outfitter, nor a reason to dislike them....BUT... the more I hear about the GOAB trying to restrict my oppotunity, the more I find reason to hate them!
Actually makes me feel vengeful!
Makes me want to follow them into their areas and ruin their "quality hunt" with their clients!

Oh you are right Mark. I would be too.
The problem lately has been another one. There is a hand full of individuals and they are on a propaganda campaign making up lies as they go to paint this picture. I guess it is working since I know you are not like that and they have you think that outfitters are taking away your opportunity. The opposite is true as all we want is to create opportunity by increasing the pie.
The question is “What is opportunety”?
What is quality?
A doe season where there are no deer?
A GOS that will get the population down so far that it would take years to recover?
I will argue for proper game management to have the best possible population out there every time. I will not agree to seasons that are not right just to have one year of “opportunity” and then have to shut it down totally after for years so that the population can recover. That is short sighted and not opportunity in my mind.

[Devilbear]

So, now I am ...misleading..., eh? Well, since I do not stand to benefit financially from ANY of my lifelong conservation activities and this character DOES, I think that the REAL concern for B.C. is most obvious.

In short, that advert and the silly blurb posted that comments on it are simply lies, cheap, self-serving lies and the drivel about ...science... is particularly galling, to anyone who has actually studied biology.

I have TRIED for years to understand the position of the GOs, but, I will NOT tolerate comments like this and will not hesitate to do anything it takes to destroy the GOABC and the whole destructive and disgusting "business" of such GOs in B.C.

Time to get rid of these liars and foreigners.

[kebes]

DB, generally pure reaction leads nowhere good. You're right. There's an issue, it needs to be dealt with. You're just going overboard.

[Devilbear]

No, given my historical research into what HAS taken place here in B.C. in terms of foreign involvement in, control over and access to our natural resources, I am, if anything, being far too moderate.

This issue will NEVER be resolved in favour of BC/Canadian citizens as long as the GOABC exists and is funded by wealthy foreigners who want access to our fish and game. We can either "tug our forelocks" to our would-be "feudal masters", OR, we can stand tall and fight for what is ours and then preserve it for our heirs.

...going overboard... is hardly an appropriate discription of patriotic comments by a "born and bred" BC boy, IMHO.

[Fisher-Dude]

Oh you are right Mark. I would be too.
The problem lately has been another one. There is a hand full of individuals and they are on a propaganda campaign making up lies as they go to paint this picture. I guess it is working since I know you are not like that and they have you think that outfitters are taking away your opportunity. The opposite is true as all we want is to create opportunity by increasing the pie.
The question is “What is opportunety”?
What is quality?
A doe season where there are no deer?
A GOS that will get the population down so far that it would take years to recover?
I will argue for proper game management to have the best possible population out there every time. I will not agree to seasons that are not right just to have one year of “opportunity” and then have to shut it down totally after for years so that the population can recover. That is short sighted and not opportunity in my mind.

There are no doe seasons where there are no deer. What a crock of shit you're trying to peddle. I've worked my ass off to get 5 days of deer season on a population that is near carrying capacity, and can't get it through because keep blocking it with anecdotal lies. So, your insinuation that the MoE will EVER open anything to "slaughter" is GOABC lies and propaganda, and I won't tolerate it.

Our club will be passing a motion at our next meeting to send what we can afford (and we have loads of money in the bank these days, thanks to the hard work of volunteers who stand to make ZERO dollars from promoting what they believe in) to the RHAPF to fight your bullshit. have really stirred the hornet's nest with Ellis' "leadership", and now you're going to end up with a situation that you're going to deeply regret. Mark my words.

[Devilbear]

Yup, great stuff, FD, just as always!

[MuleyMadness]

I know right! Those *******S! How dare they try to properly manage the wildlife of British Columbia so that they can book quality hunts to feed their families! Why can't they just book calf moose hunts!
SONS O' BITCHES!:wink:

I don't believe the vast majority of the GO's give a rat's ass about proper management outside their areas to tell you the truth. Their primary focus seems to be the exclusion of resident hunters from 'their' allocations, 'their' lands, and 'their' trophys. Quite frankly, even the suggestion that they are interested in fair hunting opportunites for resident hunters turns MY F-ING stomach. Explain their pressure to close the Cariboo moose season and keep it closed for anything but LEH, oh and of course GO's...population certainly isn't hurting. Furthermore can you actually pretend that the moose population in PG, FSJ, Valemont, McBride, etc warrants the restrictive seasons in place? If you say you do, then you are full of shit plain and simple. :evil:

[6616]

We care about wildlife, healthy populations, and proper management so that “everyone” (First Nations, Resident, and Non-Resident Hunters) can have an opportunity for a successful and quality hunting experience. We depend on it and the results will benefit all.
In conclusion,
I truly believe that the day we look at our self as one, “hunters” is the day we actually all gained something. We have much more in common then not and should work on getting more game out there together vs. fighting in meetings or cyberspace. The real battles for hunting in BC are yet to come and they are not resident hunter vs. guides.

Yes you guys are really worried about resident hunters alright...! That's why you want to end the spike/fork moose seasons, put all sheep on LEH, reduce resident presence in the bush, manage for trophy quality, file appeals on quota reductions that result from conservation based AAH reductions so you can get a piece of the resident moose harvest. That's why you campaign to restrict resident's ability to utilze their allocation under the guise of conservation, and even going so far as to attempt to enlist a few gullible residents to help, just so that in 2012 the resident degree of utilization will be so low it will result in a large transfer of allocation from residents to you guys. Yah you really care...!

If you really care about the future of hunting in BC and want to work as a unitified front with resident hunters, quit trying to manipulate MOE into screwing us. Stop trying to reduce resident participation, after all the more resident hunters there are the stronger the hunter lobby will be. If you really believe more then a small percentage of resident hunters prefer restricted harvest levels in order to produce quailty trophy hunts you are really fooling yourselves and I know you know better.

Did you ever stop to think how lucky you really are, is enough ever enough for you guys....???? BC has the highest non-resident allocations on the continent south of the northern territiries. Did you know the non-resident allocation for moose is 6% in Alberta, 14% in Saskatchewan, and most USA states limit non-resident harvest to 10% and half of that is unassisted while you guys have the protection of a law that says non-residents require a guide. Ask someone in Montana, or Alberta, or Wyoming what how they would feel about 25% of the total harvest of a major species being allocated for non-residents,,,,, yet you guys seem to think 25% is insufficent for BC guide-outfitters. If you really need more then 25% of the harvests to remain viable, then you deserve to go out of business.

I have never had anything against the guide-outfitting industry, but that's slowly changing, enough is frikkin' enough, crap on someone else for a change, you have created a lot of enemies within the ranks of resident hunters with your efforts the last couple of years. You guys have caused the rift, and now you preach to us about unification,,,, my gawd man.....!!!!!

[kebes]

Resident priority can exist with opportunity for people outside of BC. Does it...clearly not right now, which isn't right and needs to be dealt with. Banning anyone who isn't a canadian or british columbian resident is to far.

[Mooseman]

Resident priority can exist with opportunity for people outside of BC. Does it...clearly not right now........

where ?


Allocation of 25% - 75% for resident hunting.
GOS on spike-fork moose in 7A vs. quota for outfitters.
GOS on calf moose in 7A.
GOS on Stone’s Sheep vs. quota for outfitters.
GOS on big bulls in Reg. 6 vs. quota for outfitters.
Commitment from MOE to reduce LEH by 40%.
:confused:

[Devilbear]

You post as though you and your foreign clients have an EQUAL RIGHT to BC's wildlife to that which we residents have. The arrogance of this attitude is simply appalling and it IS, as you should realize, causing many to become totally anti-foreign hunting and anti-GO. This is not very wise, IMHO, but, soldier on, your days are numbered.

[kebes]

You post as though you and your foreign clients have an EQUAL RIGHT to BC's wildlife to that which we residents have. The arrogance of this attitude is simply appalling and it IS, as you should realize, causing many to become totally anti-foreign hunting and anti-GO. This is not very wise, IMHO, but, soldier on, your days are numbered.

Wow. I have never come close to guiding anyone anywhere. You're twisting my words all over the place. I've said a couple times, residents take priority. I also said it's not right that we aren't given priority right now. I don't want someone outside of bc to have priority over myself or any other resident. What I'm saying is that it's possible for resident priority to exist and there still be some opportunity for people outside of bc.

[Devilbear]

I was responding to "Mooseman", not to you, so, no harm intended to you.

[kebes]

Apologies, my bad.

[Fisher-Dude]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/MoosemanBC/GOABCImportantMessageAd.jpg




Isn't it frikken ironic that the moose chosen for their ad is one that the majority of BC residents cannot harvest because of antler restrictions in the overwhelming majority of regions in BC? However, a rich foreigner can simply lay his money down and kill it? Another SNAFU by Scott Ellis, methinks!

[Mooseman]

Oh, by the way. CN kills more moose in 7A then all guide outfitters shoot with clients all season!

Also, one wolf kills about 9 moose a year. Our programs and guide outfitter/ trappers got about 60 in 7A last year. 60 x 9 = 540 moose
The whole 7A guide outfitter allocation is quite a bit less then that!!!

If you follow my reasoning, if there were no guides and programs that we fund in 7A, the wolfs would kill more than we harvest with our clients. On top of that, we pay about $ 300.000 in licenses alone in 7A plus all the other economic benefits.

PLEASE don’t twist things as was done in your ad and yes, we have a right to conduct our business by guiding residents and non-residents for money on a hunt. That is what we paid for when we bought our areas. No different from any other licensee that harvests a resource in BC. I also recommend reading the wildlife act.

There is a new battle on the horizon though. Just wait a bit. Good thing the local clubs has funds, because you will need them to fight this one. Please ask your executives about Kwadacha and what is coming near you in a very short time.

[Fisher-Dude]

So the GOABC is going to kill some of CN's trains too? What relevance does that have? Licensed BC trappers kill more wolves than the GOABC, as do BC resident hunters. With more BC resident hunters having the opportunity to hunt moose, we will quickly kill more than 60 wolves in 7A in a season as incidental harvest while moose hunting. In fact in 2006, 662 BC residents killed 124 wolves in 7A, while 411 non-residents killed just 10. We don't NEED you for F all.

[Devilbear]

The licence to utilize BC wildlife that is sold to GOs is NOT a "right", or, it would not require payment as in the aboriginal imbroglio. It IS an agreement to allow a certain harvest over a certain timespan in a specific area by a particular GO; this is not a "right", but, somewhat akin to the old "Timber Sales" administered by the FS.

The Regional Manager CAN CANCEL this licence at any time and would NOT be so empowered in respect of a "right".

The wolves killed or Moose killed by CN are totally irrelevant to this situation and introducing them into the discussion merely demonstrates just how phoney the GOABC really is.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

If guides and residents can't come to terms soon it won't be long before hunting altogether is on the outs. With less then 100 000 hunters in BC and ten times that number inenvirofriendly bunny hugging ***** hippies, the voters will be deciding our hunting season. GOABC, residents along with clubs like SCI are important to keeping hunting alive in BC. And for the record, compared to the rest of North America we in BC have long and generous seasons with ample bag limits.

[kebes]

CH, then why are guides pushing for more restrictions on resident hunters? It would seem a lot easier to come to terms with someone who wasn't trying to give me the screws.

[Devilbear]

I tend to disagree with CH on this post, but, he is a good guy and I DO want to hear ALL honest sides of this situation. I do not care for the slick posts and adverts of the type "Mooseman" uses, but, since my FIRST priority is conservation and then BC-Canadian hunting, I will listen to and carefully consider the guides position, as well.

This IS a DAMMED hard "row to hoe" and I think I will go wrestle with my Rottweilers to relax for awhile.

[huntwriter]

And for the record, compared to the rest of North America we in BC have long and generous seasons with ample bag limits.

Not quite true. If you desire I could list many U.S. states that have much longer seasons and generous blag limits that would make you dizzy. Like Wisconsin offers 24 deer tags per hunter. In Tennessee you can kill 18 deer, and so the list could go on.

What we do have here in BC is a variety of huntable game species that is unmatched in North America. Other than the pronghorn there isn't a game species in North America that can't be found here in our province and of that we can be justifiably proud.

[GoatGuy]

A GOS that will get the population down so far that it would take years to recover?
I will argue for proper game management to have the best possible population out there every time. I will not agree to seasons that are not right just to have one year of “opportunity” and then have to shut it down totally after for years so that the population can recover. That is short sighted and not opportunity in my mind.

This is the interesting part.

Your area is in 7A, one of the most successful and stable moose management regimes in the Province. Outfitter allocation more than doubled for 'trophy' bulls when it was brought in (LEH any bull for residents). All in all a good deal for outfitters, no? More than double the tags, residents put on LEH and most importantly to you a sustainable harvest.

Ironically, you've been trying to have the calf and immature bull moose season closed.


What does that have to do with "have one year of 'opportunity' and then have to shut it down totally for years so that the population can recover?" That is and has been a sustainable management strategy.
Then I read stuff like this posted on the interweb, apparently from the GOABC economic paper or whatever it's called.

"The management of big game must be conducted in a manner that grows trophyclass animals and restricts provisions such as “spike-fork” seasons for immature bull moose."

2. Is this a part of the GOABC economic paper or is it made up?
3. What exactly does restricts and grow trophy animals mean?
4. What does that have with sustainability?

Now before you go on to say that you don't think the harvest is sustainable and that cow/calf immature bull moose hunting should be shut down let's look at the numbers:

Guide-outfitter cow kill from 1981-2006 = 1005
Guide-outfitter calf kill from 1981-2006 = 523
Guide-outfitter bull kill from 1981-2006 = 5441

So you don't want to harvest cows/calves yet 22% of the outfitter kill was cows and calves. During the same period resident harvest has been stagnant while guide-outfitter kill increased more than 20%. Still seems like a pretty good deal.

This doesn't make sense.

5. If guide-outfitters don't believe it is a sustainable hunt why are they shooting cows/calves especially if they want trophy class animals?



Answer the questions and use numbers to support your arguments - I won't bother if it's written in rhetoric or some other form of inebriated language.

[willy442]

there is lots of opportunity for non residents to hunt in bc and i hope there always is but they come second. As residents we have to understand what is really happening to our opportunites. The goabc wants all species in the province to be managed for quality hunting. they want only big bucks, big bulls, big rams etc harvested because they can sell big for more money to non residents. Believe me they could care less about a resident who wants to shoot a meat animal. They want no young bulls, bucks or rams harvested by residents and are pushing this agenda big time with the moe at both the provincial and regional levels. the mule deer season in region five is a good example. Resident sheep hunters in region 6 get shafted every year and if present policies by moe are allowed to continue bighorn hunting opportunites for residents in the kootenay's are going to be reduced. the list goes on. Do not buy into the goabc's quality hunting push. quality means more opportunities for non residents and fewer for us. The ad's they are running in the newspapers and the bs they have on their website are meant to divide residents across the province. don't let that happen.

Bridger and your followers;

You can not continue bashing the Guide Outfitters of this Province and win any type of battle. Please show me one from the past that would equal what you are claiming today if I'm wrong.
The problems we have as resident hunters are proper game management for all users including guides ( because they are not going away), as free as possible access and opportunity to hunt the spiecies that are sustaining themselves, and our share of tags for those that are under LEH or restriction along with set guidelines for bring these areas back to GOS as soon as possible.
In my opinion the correct avenue of accomplishing this is through being better prepared to put up a proper arguement with the Fish and Wildlife department. Not an anti Guide Outfitter crusade. What are you winning fighting as many think (THE BIG BAD WOLF).
I had hoped as I posted that the money put up for the Resident fund would not be wasted on an anti guide outfitter campaigan and instead put toward a mature and well funded presentation to preserve and protect our resident hunting in the province. I see the BCWF going backwards on another front.:(

[willy442]

Its not that we are against the GOABC it is the fact that they are against us the resident hunters. The GOABC started this fight and with a little work we the residents will end it. My personal feeling are the industry should be shut down comepletly in southern BC.

I must back the guides on this one. They are not trying to get rid of all resident hunters. They are and rightly so working to eliminate the clowns that give us all a bad name in the eyes of the anti's.

Unlike the average BC resident the guide fully realizes that thier existance is directly related to a sustainable resident hunt annually. If the average resident couch potato would actually get involved with some forward thinking on our game and it's management, maybe some gains could be made. Crying the outfitter is the bad guy only helps thier case in the eyes of government. The precidence has already repeated itself many times world wide.:(

[Devilbear]

Don't count on it, as you are in the minority in B.C. and this long over-due fight has just begun.

The GOABC is THE enemy of resident hunters in BC and people are beginning to see that their propaganda about "scientific management" is just a lot of "pasture pudding".

Face it, Willy, your time is gone and it ain't gonna return!

[willy442]

I have supported the concept of a guiding industry and non resident hunting in our province from day one but the present guiding industry is really run by international hunting companies that could care less about resident hunter opportunity. the viability paper they presented government is pretty good proof of that.Unfortunately assistant guides and wranglers get caught up in the mess but i am not going to now or ever accept quality hunting across the province or any leh when non residents harvest the majority of the aah. few people realize that the bc government (us) subsidize the guiding industry with millions of dollars each year and in turn they try and reduce our hunting and harvest opportunities. Sorry, bullshit is bullshit no matter how much honey the goabc puts on it.

Please explain how you subsidize the guiding industry?

[Devilbear]

...couch potato..., really, Willy, are you not the same guy, younger than I am, who does not hunt now or for some years, as you "cannot" walk into the mountains?

WHO made it the right or responsiblity of the GOABC to ...get rid... of ANY resident hunters? THEY are NOT the owners of BC, OR, the "BOSS"; the arrogance here is almost beyond belief!

Any GO who wants to ...get rid... of me, should probably try something a bit safer, like, doing a high dive off "The Lions Gate"........

[mark]

Bridger and your followers;

You can not continue bashing the Guide Outfitters of this Province and win any type of battle. Please show me one from the past that would equal what you are claiming today if I'm wrong.
The problems we have as resident hunters are proper game management for all users including guides ( because they are not going away), as free as possible access and opportunity to hunt the spiecies that are sustaining themselves, and our share of tags for those that are under LEH or restriction along with set guidelines for bring these areas back to GOS as soon as possible.
In my opinion the correct avenue of accomplishing this is through being better prepared to put up a proper arguement with the Fish and Wildlife department. Not an anti Guide Outfitter crusade. What are you winning fighting as many think (THE BIG BAD WOLF).
I had hoped as I posted that the money put up for the Resident fund would not be wasted on an anti guide outfitter campaigan and instead put toward a mature and well funded presentation to preserve and protect our resident hunting in the province. I see the BCWF going backwards on another front.:(

hey willy, I know guiding is your familys heritage, career etc. If there is anything in Rams first post that you think is wrong, maybe you could explain???
Pushing for Leh, removing seasons, and lowering limits on deer???
That is all reducing resident opportunity!
When has any resident hunter asked for an LEH season for a quality hunt?????
Ive never had a problem with guiding, or any outfitter in my life, but if the GOABC is pushing to reduce my opportunity, then this is a war!
And Bridger, and the federation should inform us of the ill intent!
We got 80,000 plus troops, word travels quickly these days!
GOABC may want to rethink the stradegy, reduce my opportunity to hunt and Ill use my spare time to ruin hunts for outfitters!

What I dont get is.... when you have high paying clients, you can afford the use of airplanes, jet boats and horses! you can get way back, away from 99% of residents anyway!
Keep in mind most residents just want to fill the freezer as cheaply as possible!

[willy442]

...couch potato..., really, Willy, are you not the same guy, younger than I am, who does not hunt now or for some years, as you "cannot" walk into the mountains?

WHO made it the right or responsiblity of the GOABC to ...get rid... of ANY resident hunters? THEY are NOT the owners of BC, OR, the "BOSS"; the arrogance here is almost beyond belief!

Any GO who wants to ...get rid... of me, should probably try something a bit safer, like, doing a high dive off "The Lions Gate"........

The only person on here that thinks they own anything is you and your repetative garbage. You are such an extremist that it is impossible to reason with you and I for one have no understanding why a person would even try. Just a suggestion " it might be time to go and paint the basement again".

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Bridger and your followers;

You can not continue bashing the Guide Outfitters of this Province and win any type of battle. Please show me one from the past that would equal what you are claiming today if I'm wrong.
The problems we have as resident hunters are proper game management for all users including guides ( because they are not going away), as free as possible access and opportunity to hunt the spiecies that are sustaining themselves, and our share of tags for those that are under LEH or restriction along with set guidelines for bring these areas back to GOS as soon as possible.
In my opinion the correct avenue of accomplishing this is through being better prepared to put up a proper arguement with the Fish and Wildlife department. Not an anti Guide Outfitter crusade. What are you winning fighting as many think (THE BIG BAD WOLF).
I had hoped as I posted that the money put up for the Resident fund would not be wasted on an anti guide outfitter campaigan and instead put toward a mature and well funded presentation to preserve and protect our resident hunting in the province. I see the BCWF going backwards on another front.:(

Willy- I understand where you're coming from.....but the most important thing about this whole approach is that it is a "reaction" (not a stand alone, unprovoked "action")towards the GOABC's stance and movement against resident hunters.
We didn't start this whole thing. The BCWF has been bashed for not being organized and not standing up for the rights of resident hunters. We'll guess what? Looks like they're finally getting organized.

My hat goes off to the executives who started all of this new movement.

A group can only take so much "back-door back-stabbing":-?

SSS

[40incher]

This is a very timely and pertinent post.

The G.O.'s were the ones pushing for the "new" allocation policy, and now that it's in they are trying to maximize their benefit and limit the residents any way they can.

The Tahltan guides have got it figured out, along with the BC Park's bureaucrats. Let's push the "quality hunt" propaganda and blockade resident hunters from acessing the land to boot.

The battle is on, and I would appreciate if the guide's apologists on this site would take a back seat.

BC residents are harvesting only 20% of the Stone Sheep rams and less than 10% of the Osbourne Caribou in Spatsizi Park. Apparently thats 20% and 10% too many.

My advice to the guides. Lighten up, or expect to lose it all!

There are lots of animals to go around. Let's share the wealth boys.

[Gateholio]

Let's keep the personal stuff OFF the threads, please. Only going to ask nicely once.

[willy442]

hey willy, I know guiding is your familys heritage, career etc. If there is anything in Rams first post that you think is wrong, maybe you could explain???
Pushing for Leh, removing seasons, and lowering limits on deer???
That is all reducing resident opportunity!
When has any resident hunter asked for an LEH season for a quality hunt?????
Ive never had a problem with guiding, or any outfitter in my life, but if the GOABC is pushing to reduce my opportunity, then this is a war!
And Bridger, and the federation should inform us of the ill intent!
We got 80,000 plus troops, word travels quickly these days!
GOABC may want to rethink the stradegy, reduce my opportunity to hunt and Ill use my spare time to ruin hunts for outfitters!

What I dont get is.... when you have high paying clients, you can afford the use of airplanes, jet boats and horses! you can get way back, away from 99% of residents anyway!
Keep in mind most residents just want to fill the freezer as cheaply as possible!

To put it point blank Mark;
I don't give a shit about what the B.C resident wants or the guide outfitter. What I do care about is exactly like I stated in my post. Fair opportunity for all of us to continue hunting. This will be achieved through many programs, funded by variuos groups and sound game management which in many cases will include LEH. I for one can tel you that the GO statement of quality hunts includes all animals and proper management of all spiecies. Not just the growth of horns as many on here think. I have watched this same old bullshit for far more years than most on here have even been able to legally pack a gun and it makes me sick, when we all have so much in common. The jealousy fueled by the statements in your post, and DB's propaganda is what prevents any gain in the long term.

[boxhitch]

The Allocation Policy was ratified after much discussion and agreed upon by both user groups and gov't. So why does the GOABC suddenly come up with grievances against it and then suggest the resident harvest has to be controlled by leh hunts ? Nowhere is the resident hunter exceeding the allowable harvest. The only concern may be a couple of pocket sheep populations that are getting extra pressure, but the inventories show things are good. So why the negative propoganda by the GOABC ?

[Bearmaster]

BC Crams, that is completely wrong. We are NOT pushing for LEH on sheep in the North. Sorry can't pin that one on us. There maybe some indiviuals that would support this,but this is not the boards postion.

[Devilbear]

Willy Oh Willy, how can you let me down, you promised me a SCIENTIFIC MANAGEMENT approach and all I see is the same old, crude, vulgar, illiterate ranting and denigration of the other BC residents.....like...couch potato....

Tell me, Oh Sage of the North, Sheephunter extraordinaire, Mighty Packer of Rifles Before ANYONE Else and general bullshit slinger, just how many HIKING hunts did YOU go on, this season?

The REAL ...gain... for BC wildlife management is when you and those like you are only a bad memory.

[Brett]

I'de like to start by saying I just emailed Pat Bell. I was just speaking with a guide today who told me "the guides" are pushing to replace the CO's "because knowone knows the bush better". He also said If the province were to go Giudes only they (the province) would make more money and could count on the guides to police themselves and others, makeing it even better looking finacialy for the government. I told him it would never happen! He responded with "the government is listening to us".

[Bearmaster]

We are not trying to recreate the splits.We simply want a quality product for our share.The redsidents can have whatever they like for theirs.

Folks I am telling you here. You problem is not going to be with GOABC. The allocation policy is done.

Contact your excutive to get a update from Brent as to what the residents and GO's have to worry about.To top it all off , while we have been fighting each other, the other battle is almost won.

Sad days ahead.

[willy442]

The Allocation Policy was ratified after much discussion and agreed upon by both user groups and gov't. So why does the GOABC suddenly come up with grievances against it and then suggest the resident harvest has to be controlled by leh hunts ? Nowhere is the resident hunter exceeding the allowable harvest. The only concern may be a couple of pocket sheep populations that are getting extra pressure, but the inventories show things are good. So why the negative propoganda by the GOABC ?

Who cares? Is there anything to be accomplished by crying the guides won't accept it? When are you people going to understand that this approach has never won any arguements nor will it. I thought the resident hunter fund was something to make the resident hunter proactive instead of reactive. Guess I thought some peoples thinking had changed for the better. I was wrong so continue on.

[willy442]

Willy Oh Willy, how can you let me down, you promised me a SCIENTIFIC MANAGEMENT approach and all I see is the same old, crude, vulgar, illiterate ranting and denigration of the other BC residents.....like...couch potato....

Tell me, Oh Sage of the North, Sheephunter extraordinaire, Mighty Packer of Rifles Before ANYONE Else and general bullshit slinger, just how many HIKING hunts did YOU go on, this season?

The REAL ...gain... for BC wildlife management is when you and those like you are only a bad memory.

I have taken my fair share of quality animals in the past (both horn and tender meat) and have no need or desire to kill anything anymore. I do still have a keen interest in huntings future. Unlike you I can and will co-exist with NONRESIDENTS.

[d6dan]

It's been said on here on more than one occassion.....If Residents need to be put on LEH for a species in an area, then there should be ZERO Guided clients in that area for that species in that area. If we can accomplish this, the GOABC would ceratinly change their tune when it comes to attempting to get resident hunters on LEH
SSS

So Here on the Island the Guide/Outfitters should have 0 elk hunts. Lets start here and work across the province...

[Bearmaster]

Only Canadian Residents can hold a Outfitter licence and most GO's are just families trying to make a living doing something they love. They are not wasting teir time trying to think of ways to screw the residents. They are busy working hard for a average living.

[Bearmaster]

Willy442, looks like the ads in the paper will continue. Instead of fighting Anti Hunting groups, we will just burn up our money doing our laundry in public. I am sure this will result in just getting rid of hunting all together.

[horshur]

Spite will insure that know one wins everyone loses but we will be happy cause we showed them *******s!!!!

[boxhitch]

BC Crams, that is completely wrong. We are NOT pushing for LEH on sheep in the North. Sorry can't pin that one on us. There maybe some indiviuals that would support this,but this is not the boards postion.The quote posted from the GO's breif clearly suggests that a guide quota and a resident leh is the answer to any conservation concern. Why do they think that leh, as distastful as it is, would be settled upon by residents ? GO's suggest it is the tool to use, when most residents dispise leh. We all agreee that something has to be done in answer to a conservation concern, but these are different than quality of hunt concerns.

[mark]

The licence to utilize BC wildlife that is sold to GOs is NOT a "right", or, it would not require payment as in the aboriginal imbroglio. It IS an agreement to allow a certain harvest over a certain timespan in a specific area by a particular GO; this is not a "right", but, somewhat akin to the old "Timber Sales" administered by the FS.

The Regional Manager CAN CANCEL this licence at any time and would NOT be so empowered in respect of a "right".

The wolves killed or Moose killed by CN are totally irrelevant to this situation and introducing them into the discussion merely demonstrates just how phoney the GOABC really is.

Gotta agree with this, mooseman, your sugar coated paragraphs sound like your talking to a 5 year old. Your digging a deeper hole here man and lost all credibility!


If guides and residents can't come to terms soon it won't be long before hunting altogether is on the outs. With less then 100 000 hunters in BC and ten times that number inenvirofriendly bunny hugging ***** hippies, the voters will be deciding our hunting season. GOABC, residents along with clubs like SCI are important to keeping hunting alive in BC. And for the record, compared to the rest of North America we in BC have long and generous seasons with ample bag limits.

Hunting is all together on the outs???? Lets just suppose that happens, the antis get their way....no need or budget for CO's anymore.... Im sure myself and 80,000 others will continue to fill our freezers, we just wont need to buy licences! :roll:


So Here on the Island the Guides should have 0 elk hunts. Lets start here and work across the province...

I agree 100%, any region that cant sustain a GOS, certainly shouldnt have any foreigners hunting!
If I cant hunt an elk on Van. Isl, why should some rich Yanky????
That goes for any species anywhere!!!!!!!
Any one who disputes this concept deserves a kick in the nuts! :evil:

[boxhitch]

Only Canadian Residents can hold a Outfitter licence and most GO's are just families trying to make a living doing something they love. They are not wasting teir time trying to think of ways to screw the residents. They are busy working hard for a average living.But they have a mandate to follow and have hired a propaganda machine to try and fullfil that end.

[Mooseman]

I'de like to start by saying I just emailed Pat Bell. I was just speaking with a guide today who told me "the guides" are pushing to replace the CO's "because knowone knows the bush better". He also said If the province were to go Giudes only they (the province) would make more money and could count on the guides to police themselves and others, makeing it even better looking finacialy for the government. I told him it would never happen! He responded with "the government is listening to us".

bullshit! What guide?

[boxhitch]

I agree 100%, any region that cant sustain a GOS, certainly shouldnt have any foreigners hunting!
If I cant hunt an elk on Van. Isl, why should some rich Yanky????
That goes for any species anywhere!!!!!!!
Any one who disputes this concept deserves a kick in the nuts! :evil:Before you warm up the boot, answer me this....
where an AAH is established that could easily be exceeded during a GOS season can you come up with a workable way to limit the harvest ?
When the GO is on a quota holding him to his %, the only way I can come up with is a phone-before-you-hunt and phone-when-you-kill program where the MOE could close the opening at any time. Do-able, though the M of the day doesn't want to have to exert that much effort.
ideas?

[Devilbear]

I have taken my fair share of quality animals in the past (both horn and tender meat) and have no need or desire to kill anything anymore. I do still have a keen interest in huntings future. Unlike you I can and will co-exist with NONRESIDENTS.


You DID NOT answer my simple question; it is, DO YOU HIKE in the mountains as we whom you presume to call ...couch potatoes...DO?

I have REPEATEDLY posted that I AM IN FAVOUR OF "non-resident" CANADIAN hunting being INCREASED in BC; it is GOs, the GOABC and foreigners I want to restrict much more than is now the case.

Same old Willy, always avoiding simple questions and spewing misspelled nonsense about others.

[GoatGuy]

BC Crams, that is completely wrong. We are NOT pushing for LEH on sheep in the North. Sorry can't pin that one on us. There maybe some indiviuals that would support this,but this is not the boards postion.

Another one posted that is part of the GOABC economic report.

"Consistent and fair regulations need to be applied equally to both recreational hunters and the commercial hunting industry. If there is a harvest concern then guides should be on quota and the recreational hunters should be on Limited Entry Hunting (LEH), and vice versa."


Is this the position of GOABC or have lies been posted on the internet?
Are you suggesting guide-outfitters shouldn't have a quota on sheep?
Or are you just suggesting all sheep hunting in BC should be on LEH?Considering residents only harvest 30% of the sheep in Region 6 what is your answer?

Take outfitters off quota so they can harvest more sheep?

OR

Put residents on LEH because they harvest 30% of the sheep?

[MuleyMadness]

Only Canadian Residents can hold a Outfitter licence and most GO's are just families trying to make a living doing something they love. They are not wasting teir time trying to think of ways to screw the residents. They are busy working hard for a average living.

This is not true anymore Bearmaster....the law was changed a few months ago...now a person of any nationality can be a GO wtih the permission of the MOE. No bs there my friend, it's in black and white on the site. Kinda blows the whole idea that they are interested in our rights as we are all Canadians right to hell.

The problem, IMHO is that I have seen the opportunities for a quality hunting experiences reduced continually since I began hunting over 20 years ago. Now if there were a shortage of animals I could undertand that, but I seem more now than ever, and everyone agrees that the populations are very healthy in most regions of the province. I honestly believe the MOE and BIOS have no interest or agenda to see overly restrictive hunting opportunites for residents, yet continually our opportunities are being reduced. Truthfully the only reason I can see why this is the case is because GOs in many of these areas are pushing for tightly controlled restrictions on residents. And don't tell me it's because they are worried about the conservation aspects. That's simply not true. Many of the areas in 7a and portions of 6 are considered to have some of the highest density of large mature moose in North America yet the seasons are extremely restrictive...why is that? Only reason I can see is because the GOs want a large allocation of large trophy animals to sell to their clients. I am not against this. I am against the continual pressure they put on my family via their continual attempts to reduce my opportunities to provide quality, healthy, wild game. I have 7 kids, and no goddamn time to be making a 15 hour drive each way just to have an opportunity at a GOS for moose. IDGAF what any GO says about quality harvest...when they are continually lobbying to reduce our hunting opportunites they are literally taking food from the mouths of my children. Will they starve otherwise? Of course not. Is wild game the healthiest, most nutrious, and best meat available to them. You bet your ass. So with that in mind, explain to me how reduced hunting opportunities and the pressure to further reduce hunting opportunities for residents is the best thing for them, in any way, shape, or form. Food from their mouths, how long to you think families are going to stand for that kind of bullshit?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Not quite true. If you desire I could list many U.S. states that have much longer seasons and generous blag limits that would make you dizzy. Like Wisconsin offers 24 deer tags per hunter. In Tennessee you can kill 18 deer, and so the list could go on.

What we do have here in BC is a variety of huntable game species that is unmatched in North America. Other than the pronghorn there isn't a game species in North America that can't be found here in our province and of that we can be justifiably proud.

wipe out the wolves and those type harvest numbers may one day be attainable. Un like alot of the states we cannot leagally supply the needy with fresh meat as a lot of venison does in the states with large bag limits. This is another problem with the laws in BC. I hunt 10 months a year right out my back door, if a guy wants to hunt BC is the place to be.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I'de like to start by saying I just emailed Pat Bell. I was just speaking with a guide today who told me "the guides" are pushing to replace the CO's "because knowone knows the bush better". He also said If the province were to go Giudes only they (the province) would make more money and could count on the guides to police themselves and others, makeing it even better looking finacialy for the government. I told him it would never happen! He responded with "the government is listening to us".

If this statement is true spill the beans, give up this idiots name, I am sure he is a pee on trying to make a name for himself.

[Everett]

I must back the guides on this one. They are not trying to get rid of all resident hunters. They are and rightly so working to eliminate the clowns that give us all a bad name in the eyes of the anti's.

Unlike the average BC resident the guide fully realizes that thier existance is directly related to a sustainable resident hunt annually. If the average resident couch potato would actually get involved with some forward thinking on our game and it's management, maybe some gains could be made. Crying the outfitter is the bad guy only helps thier case in the eyes of government. The precidence has already repeated itself many times world wide.:(

Sorry Willy a good portion of the guide outfitters in Kootenays are the bad guys and the sooner we shut them down the better. I will stand by my earlier statements there obviosly are not enough animals in BC to go around for residents otherwise there would not be LEH or horn restrictions. So as long as that situation exists there should be no foreign hunting of those species. When we get rid of LEH and horn restriction than foreigners will be welcome to hunt. Thats my 2 cents

[mark]

Before you warm up the boot, answer me this....
where an AAH is established that could easily be exceeded during a GOS season can you come up with a workable way to limit the harvest ?
When the GO is on a quota holding him to his %, the only way I can come up with is a phone-before-you-hunt and phone-when-you-kill program where the MOE could close the opening at any time. Do-able, though the M of the day doesn't want to have to exert that much effort.
ideas?

Am I missing something here???
If the area can support a GOS sustainable, then guiding also permitted.
If it cant support a GOS, then foreigners shouldn't be hunting at all!
Are you specifically talking about stone harvest in the north, where we have GOS but outfitters are on quota???
I certainly dont know enough to comment on that one!

[Devilbear]

Sounds great, EXCEPT that, as long as the big foreign bucks for relatively rare "trophies" are available, we will see EXACTLY the same type of malfeasance by GOs that we do now.

BUT, if there is no money to be made, from foreigners with fat wallets, then the GOs will go into more legitimate businesses and we will not have to keep fighting this same old battle. While foreign hunters and a few BCers won't like a ban on foreign hunting, who cares, I am tired of them infesting my homeland like locusts.

[Bearmaster]

Yes what guide ? this is nonsence. Don't forget the order of things already decided.
1)First Nations
2)Resident priority
3)Guide Outfitters

We are the bottom. We accept that and live with it.

This rumor mill has got everyone hearing voices

[Bearmaster]

Muley Madness, I am sure that you are wrong on this one. There is no provision in the current WA for a Non resident to hold a GO licence or have a share of a certificate. We carefully considered this. Non residents can owner areas but are not recognised by MOE.

Goat guy, Its not my place or the time to disclose what our plans for sheep are...but again, I don't believe that we are going to ask to put Residents on quota.

I think both groups have another big problem to think about.

I am still waiting for someone to ask your excutive about new developments that are heating up in the province that everyone needs to be worried about.

I repeat it Folks , Your problem at present is not the GOABC, we want to have say when it comes to our share. We are not trying to convert all GOS to LEH. On the other hand, If there is a LEH that is working, why change it ?

Goat guy , you like to refer to 7 A as the model Region, well now there might have to be a 10% reduction in the AAH in 9 MU's.

I talk to resident hunter in my area all the time. They want a quality hunt too. They want to see lots of game and not see 100 guys. Populations have grown and hunters have more access from logging than ever.

We had a GOS around PG 25 years ago. Ken Childs was right to put the region on LEH and thats why we are able to harvest what we have now.

I am in favor of the spike fork hunt in 7 A, but we need to look at the calf harvest. There are no counts to see what happens to the calves from Nov to May.

I would like to see GOABC & BCWF putting money towards inventory flights.

Fact : The BCWF and GOABC spent enough money on our paper ads to cover 1/ 2 of a inventory flight or fund the legal trapping of 180 wolves.

Good work team, keep it up , were getting somewhere now ! lol

[6616]

I talk to resident hunter in my area all the time. They want a quality hunt too. They want to see lots of game and not see 100 guys.

Quality hunts by your definition means reducing the numbers of hunters afield so a hunter doesn't see 100 other guys. That usually means LEH. So what happens to the other 99 guys, are they just supposed to stay home and watch football on TV and wait their turn once evey 100 years or so? Quality for one guy and FA for the rest, sounds pretty selfish to me!

[GoatGuy]

Muley Madness, I am sure that you are wrong on this one. There is no provision in the current WA for a Non resident to hold a GO licence or have a share of a certificate. We carefully considered this. Non residents can owner areas but are not recognised by MOE.

Goat guy, Its not my place or the time to disclose what our plans for sheep are...but again, I don't believe that we are going to ask to put Residents on quota.

I think both groups have another big problem to think about.

I am still waiting for someone to ask your excutive about new developments that are heating up in the province that everyone needs to be worried about.

I repeat it Folks , Your problem at present is not the GOABC, we want to have say when it comes to our share. We are not trying to convert all GOS to LEH. On the other hand, If there is a LEH that is working, why change it ?

Goat guy , you like to refer to 7 A as the model Region, well now there might have to be a 10% reduction in the AAH in 9 MU's.

I talk to resident hunter in my area all the time. They want a quality hunt too. They want to see lots of game and not see 100 guys. Populations have grown and hunters have more access from logging than ever.

We had a GOS around PG 25 years ago. Ken Childs was right to put the region on LEH and thats why we are able to harvest what we have now.

I am in favor of the spike fork hunt in 7 A, but we need to look at the calf harvest. There are no counts to see what happens to the calves from Nov to May.

I would like to see GOABC & BCWF putting money towards inventory flights.

Fact : The BCWF and GOABC spent enough money on our paper ads to cover 1/ 2 of a inventory flight or fund the legal trapping of 180 wolves.

Good work team, keep it up , were getting somewhere now ! lol

Never been much for anecdotal redirection and after the recent phone calls and emails the 'team' mentality either.

There are 5 principal questions here. Answer them or don't bother responding.
__________________________________________________ _______

Another one posted that is part of the GOABC economic report.

"Consistent and fair regulations need to be applied equally to both recreational hunters and the commercial hunting industry. If there is a harvest concern then guides should be on quota and the recreational hunters should be on Limited Entry Hunting (LEH), and vice versa."

Is this the position of GOABC or have lies been posted on the internet?
Are you suggesting guide-outfitters shouldn't have a quota on sheep?
Or are you just suggesting all sheep hunting in BC should be on LEH?4. Considering residents only harvest 30% of the sheep in Region 6 what is your answer?

Take outfitters off quota so they can harvest more sheep?

OR

Put residents on LEH because they harvest 30% of the sheep?

Easy questions, easy answers.

Best if you stay on topic.

[GoatGuy]

Mooseman,

These questions were for you. Five (5) of them in total. Best if you answer and avoid the redirection as well. Easy questions, easy answers. As I've said before some form of statement of facts using numbers is the only appropriate form of response.


"Originally Posted by Mooseman http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=547220#post547220)
A GOS that will get the population down so far that it would take years to recover?
I will argue for proper game management to have the best possible population out there every time. I will not agree to seasons that are not right just to have one year of “opportunity” and then have to shut it down totally after for years so that the population can recover. That is short sighted and not opportunity in my mind."
__________________________________________________ __________

This is the interesting part.

Your area is in 7A, one of the most successful and stable moose management regimes in the Province. Outfitter allocation more than doubled for 'trophy' bulls when it was brought in (LEH any bull for residents). All in all a good deal for outfitters, no? More than double the tags, residents put on LEH and most importantly to you a sustainable harvest.

Ironically, you've been trying to have the calf and immature bull moose season closed.

What does that have to do with "have one year of 'opportunity' and then have to shut it down totally for years so that the population can recover?" That is and has been a sustainable management strategy.Then I read stuff like this posted on the interweb, apparently from the GOABC economic paper or whatever it's called.

"The management of big game must be conducted in a manner that grows trophyclass animals and restricts provisions such as “spike-fork” seasons for immature bull moose."

2. Is this a part of the GOABC economic paper or is it made up?
3. What exactly does restricts and grow trophy animals mean?
4. What does that have with sustainability?

Now before you go on to say that you don't think the harvest is sustainable and that cow/calf immature bull moose hunting should be shut down let's look at the numbers:

Guide-outfitter cow kill from 1981-2006 = 1005
Guide-outfitter calf kill from 1981-2006 = 523
Guide-outfitter bull kill from 1981-2006 = 5441

So you don't want to harvest cows/calves yet 22% of the outfitter kill was cows and calves. During the same period resident harvest has been stagnant while guide-outfitter kill increased more than 20%. Still seems like a pretty good deal.

This doesn't make sense.

5. If guide-outfitters don't believe it is a sustainable hunt why are they shooting cows/calves especially if they want trophy class animals?



Answer the questions and use numbers to support your arguments - I won't bother if it's written in rhetoric or some other form of inebriated language.

[Bearmaster]

6616, there are 365 LEH tags avalible in my 3 MUs.I would hardley say that isn't enough.
That doesn't include Cow LEH's and GOS on Spikes and Calves.

So yes even the resdients who can sort of live with the current LEH hunt in our area , couldn't even imagine a GOS on Bulls & Cos like their was 25 years ago.

The BCWF couldn't actually want that ?

[BCrams]

Bearmaster:


Why don't you answer the 5 questions???



You know the answers. Enlighten all of us resident hunters with the true agenda of the GOABC.


Don't side track it.

[Bearmaster]

I don't like typing that much , t give you a good answer. Maybe tommorow.Its getting late. Come to Victoria and we can sit down and hash it out !

[GoatGuy]

6616, there are 365 LEH tags avalible in my 3 MUs.I would hardley say that isn't enough.
That doesn't include Cow LEH's and GOS on Spikes and Calves.

So yes even the resdients who can sort of live with the current LEH hunt in our area , couldn't even imagine a GOS on Bulls & Cos like their was 25 years ago.

The BCWF couldn't actually want that ?


You would hardly say 365 LEH tags available isn't enough based on what?
How many LEH tags do you believe there should be?
Which residents are you referring to?
Who are they?
Where do they live?
How many of them have you talked to? Be very specific. Otherwise your thoughts could be interpreted firstly as being extremely biased and secondly anecdotal. And if that's the case there's no sense in posting.

[BCrams]

we can discuss later in Victoria


It is time for all resident hunters of BC (and non-hunters .... because they tend to dislike 'trophy hunting Americans') know what the GOABC agenda is these days.

Enough is enough.

You won't answer because you know darned well what you're doing and everything we have posted is the truth about the GOABC 'quality' bullshit.

I have never had issues with the Guide Outfitting business in BC ........ that has totally changed with your tactics and I am also stepping up to the plate to ensure the message gets out there and ensure future hunting opportunities for my kids and everyone elses. There is no way you're getting rid of the calf moose season or the spike fork season and no scientific reason to get rid of it. If anything, your moose allocations need to be reduced to give more opportunity for more resident hunters.

[BCrams]

I don't like typing that much , t give you a good answer. Maybe tommorow.Its getting late. Come to Victoria and we can sit down and hash it out !

Answer number 2. That will set the tone for the other questions.

Simple YES or NO. What is it?

"The management of big game must be conducted in a manner that grows trophyclass animals and restricts provisions such as “spike-fork” seasons for immature bull moose."

2. Is this a part of the GOABC economic paper or is it made up?

[BCrams]

Lets cut the bullshit here bearmaster.....

I will answer question Number 2 for you.....




From the GOABC's "Economic Viability Report" prepared by GOABC president Scott Ellis:

Page 9: Recommendations: Quality Big Game Species: The management of big game must be conducted in a manner that grows trophy-class animals and restricts provisions such as "spike-fork" seasons for immature moose.

Page 5: The GOABC does not support the liberalization of hunting regulations in an attempt to recruit hunters at the expense of wildlife and a quality hunting experience.



So ... the answer is YES .... its the truth.

Its time for residents to take back our wildlife.

[willy442]

You DID NOT answer my simple question; it is, DO YOU HIKE in the mountains as we whom you presume to call ...couch potatoes...DO?

I have REPEATEDLY posted that I AM IN FAVOUR OF "non-resident" CANADIAN hunting being INCREASED in BC; it is GOs, the GOABC and foreigners I want to restrict much more than is now the case.

Same old Willy, always avoiding simple questions and spewing misspelled nonsense about others.

This same old Willy undertands that non-resident hunting is here to stay and radicals like yourself will never be organized enough to do anything about it.
Hiking in the mountains has nothing to do with my statement of couch potato. That statement is in regards to people like yourself bitching on here and not putting forth any effort to working for a better situation. Dreaming about stopping all guided hunting is not a realistic goal nor one we should be looking at. If this ever happened we would loose all hunting in the province.
Also yes I'm in the mountains pretty much everyday. Where I work is in the mountains, my recreational time is spent in the mountains. Due to injury I cannot enjoy them in the same manner as those who have 2 strong legs. What's your point?

[Devilbear]

Willy, I was crippled at 13 and the surgeons told my parents that I would possibly NEVER walk again, this was FIFTY years ago, next May 5th. I sustained further leg injuries later in life and, at 63 yrs. old, I STILL backpack hunt and hike to study nature and intend to continue for many years to come.

So, when some guy like you refers to me as a ...couch potato..., I have to laugh and ask him what HE does. YOU are EXACTLY what you, in your consistently nasty comments about others here, call other BC residents and I find your illiterate babble a pathetic joke.

Guys like you are the major problem in B.C. resource management and I think that an increasing number here have clearly seen that. The "old days" of you GO types is OVER and BC will be much better for it.

...radical..., could even you actually be that stupid?

[willy442]

Willy, I was crippled at 13 and the surgeons told my parents that I would possibly NEVER walk again, this was FIFTY years ago, next May 5th. I sustained further leg injuries later in life and, at 63 yrs. old, I STILL backpack hunt and hike to study nature and intend to continue for many years to come.

So, when some guy like you refers to me as a ...couch potato..., I have to laugh and ask him what HE does. YOU are EXACTLY what you, in your consistently nasty comments about others here, call other BC residents and I find your illiterate babble a pathetic joke.

Guys like you are the major problem in B.C. resource management and I think that an increasing number here have clearly seen that. The "old days" of you GO types is OVER and BC will be much better for it.

...radical..., could even you actually be that stupid?

Devil Bear most on this site understand that you are part of the oldest living CANADIAN family in existance.

What I would like to know is how my statement on being a couch potato has anything to do with being in the mountains?

I was a guide during a time when the mountains I hunted were virtually unexplored and was privileged to see what nature looked like in a natural state, before nature studies by the so called educated like yourself started screwing it up. So yes from that stand point guiding will never be the same. However outfitting and tourism will be here long after you and I are pushing up daisies. Your absurd, communist attitude towards the industry will do nothing to stop it, but will continue to paint an ugly picture of how unrealistic you are. The days of you and some of your old co-hearts in the ministry is the only thing leaving.

I suggest the reason you in your crippled state still travel by foot in the mountains is soley the fact that you are incapable of co-existing with anyone or anything, short of the rocks you stumble over while out there.

[Devilbear]

Still, the same nasty and false remarks about others and their families, eh?

As it happens, I worked in the bush for the FS over about nine years, usually seasonally by choice and much of that was totally alone, often for three months, with ONE heli-supply trip and NO relief. I worked in the NWT and northern BC as well as the Kootenays and I seriously doubt that you started before I did.

I know you hate people with an education and I actually feel sorry for you as spending a few years in university might have helped you learn to distinguish between reality and the type of bullshit that the GOABC spews and only fools, other "guides" and you actually believe.

I am not among those ...ministry... types who conducted the studies you refer to, again, you rave about others with no factual basis. Poor you, Willy, the nasty old resident radicals are not impressed by your slurs.

[Devilbear]

To try to get this back to some form of rational discussion, does anyone here know exactly what the various GOs who have posted on this thread are referring to, when they tell us that something very bad is happening behind the scenes in Victoria, that will affect our hunting?

I have an idea what this may be and, if my fears are not merely frustration with the current mess, it will be a real disaster for we "couch potatos". So, perhaps someone can post details for us?

[moosinaround]

Allocation priority starts first and foremost with First nations at the top! Residents next, and Guide/outfitters next. If we for one minute think that Go's vs residents is going to be the issue, think again. We as users of the resource are going to lose our hunting "priveledges" to the top priority group. It is going to be a nasty battle in which 2000 years of traditional hunting "Rights" will win over the resident and guides "priveledges". It is closer to happening than we all think. Road closure up north, is a start. It will escalate from there. We should lobby together as Resource users to protect what "priveledges" we have left, cause soon we all will be "paying" the first priority users to have the "priveledge" to harvest the resource we currently all love! Moosin

[Mooseman]

Just to clarify a couple of points why I post here. It is not to battle with a group of radical cyber bullies. That would be like negotiating with the Taliban. I am here to explain the truth to the resident hunters that are reading here.
There was a dispute about the allocation of the AAH. Animals that are on quota and/or LEH. That was then negotiated and the outcome is a policy called the Allocation Policy. This policy gives resident hunting priority with an allocation split of 25 – 75 for most species and regions. After that, a matrix changes that split to some degree determined by demand and utilisation.
For the guiding industry on a provincial picture, this policy puts many small family businesses out of business. It has devastating effects for many others.
One of the things we are asking for now is, to let us determine what our 25% share should be and how we can reach it. In return, the resident hunters’ representatives should be able to do the same for that 75% share.
Second, we need that 25% share to be something that we can sell. In some cases meat moose, trophy bulls or nine year old sheep. Whatever it is, it will benefit all BC hunting as it demands healthy and sound game populations and game management based on science.
I can tell you that this is not always the case right now!
Our economic viability paper was written by us to point out some of the above and others that we need in order to be economically viable.
The allocation policy states:
“It is the policy of the Ministry:
That Guide Outfitters’ commercial interests in the harvest of big game species will be addressed by:
(3) Supporting the viability of the guide outfitting industry by committing to:
c. creating and maintaining a regulatory framework that maximizes guided hunters’ success, enjoyment, and participation;”

[Mooseman]

Allocation priority starts first and foremost with First nations at the top! Residents next, and Guide/outfitters next. If we for one minute think that Go's vs residents is going to be the issue, think again. We as users of the resource are going to lose our hunting "priveledges" to the top priority group. It is going to be a nasty battle in which 2000 years of traditional hunting "Rights" will win over the resident and guides "priveledges". It is closer to happening than we all think. Road closure up north, is a start. It will escalate from there. We should lobby together as Resource users to protect what "priveledges" we have left, cause soon we all will be "paying" the first priority users to have the "priveledge" to harvest the resource we currently all love! Moosin

You just hit the nail on the head !!!

[Bearmaster]

Jesse, my view is what I have seen myself in my area.
The residents are the families that come year after year to hunt our MUs and specifcly in our area. We get along great with majority of the residents that hunt there and even help them pull there Moose out and so on.

They are the happy with the current LEH system and would NOT want to see a GOS.

I actually don't believe that the Action Alliance or BCWF is speaking for the resdient hunter.

I personaly don't have any beef with the spike fork in 7 A. I do havesome concerns with the calf season. I am not saying we have to stop it altogether, but it should be looked at.

Goat guy, the answer is real simple, if I have anterless tags, then I will sell them. I won't have them in 2012.A good number of my hunters are meat hunters.Most of my clients are just average Joe wanting to experience a BC Moose hunt as a once in a lifetime event. They come with their kids and take all the meat home.

The residents in our area, don't mind meeting these folks and get along fine.

In some regions they feel very strongly about their new spike fork season...I can't speak for them.I haven't heard how it went.

Our managers don't feel that 7A could sustain a GOS on big bulls I agree with them.

There is no reason to type all of our arguments out here. If anyone is interested in Moose managment then they will be at Victoria for Nov 15 workshop.The facts will be presented by qualified personal. I am going to listen with a open mind.

[BCrams]

Mooseman .... are you blind.

From the GOABC's "Economic Viability Report" prepared by GOABC president Scott Ellis:

Page 9: Recommendations: Quality Big Game Species: The management of big game must be conducted in a manner that grows trophy-class animals and restricts provisions such as "spike-fork" seasons for immature moose.

Page 5: The GOABC does not support the liberalization of hunting regulations in an attempt to recruit hunters at the expense of wildlife and a quality hunting experience.



We know exactly what the GOABC 'quality hunt' mantra stands for and what you want out of it. Don't avoid the topic.

Managing wildlife in a manner to grow trophy class game is not managing for conservation.

Restricting provisions such as .... really says everything in addition to spike / fork moose and calf seasons.

Page 5 ..... recruiting hunters means more resident hunters which is better for for all of us. The real "quality" definition = fewer residents hunting in the woods.

[Devilbear]

A comment equating any of us posting here as resident, native-born BC citizens and hunters with ...the Taliban... is highly offensive and I am one who will not tolerate slurs of that sort.

The person who did this should edit his post, apologize and, in future, watch his rhetoric as comments such as this are disgusting.

[BCrams]

There is no reason to type all of our arguments out here. If anyone is interested in Moose managment then they will be at Victoria for Nov 15 workshop.The facts will be presented by qualified personal. I am going to listen with a open mind.

There is every reason to put the true agenda of the GOABC on the internet. The more resident hunters who are aware what "quality" is by the GOABC - they will be singing a different tune against you guys pretty damned fast when they realize it actually means less opportunity than they currently have.

I don't know why you're all hyped up on the moose management thing in Victoria. After all, the Regional bio in 7a has told you everything and given it is the most successful moose management regime in N.A., I am very surprised you do not listen to him with an open mind. This spike fork / calf thing would be a non-issue if you really understood. All that matters to you is to 'decrease' residents out there.

You only want to hear anything that can diminish resident hunters opportunity to go out hunting. It is a well known fact you are pushing for the removal of the spike fork and calf season. Why you are posting on here that you support the spike / fork now? speaks only of your tactics and not to raise the ire of resident hunters.

Just like how you won't answer GG's questions or acknowledge the Viability report statements I posted.

Those acting on behalf of resident hunters are able to put numbers and facts down. You can't. Everything you try to argue with is all heresay.

[MuleyMadness]

Muley Madness, I am sure that you are wrong on this one. There is no provision in the current WA for a Non resident to hold a GO licence or have a share of a certificate. We carefully considered this. Non residents can owner areas but are not recognised by MOE.


NO...you don't have to be a Canadian citizen to hold a Guiding Territory Certificate, nor do you have to be a guide to hold a guiding territory certificate anymore...Well done on stepping around the facts there Bearmaster. I clearly note citizenship, and you throw out a NON RESIDENT...not the same thing buddy, and you know it. An American, or anyone else for that matter can be a GO or hold a guiding territory certificate as long as they live here a certain period. Guess what, no matter how you twist it, that does not make them Canadians, nor does it place their loyalty with THIS COUNTRY or OUR CITIZENS. So don't pretend everything is everything and blow smoke out your ass when know what I said is 100% TRUE:

To be licenced as a guide outfitter in British Columbia, you must qualify as follows:

you must be a permanent resident of Canada (i.e., be a landed immigrant). - THIS IS NOT A CANADIAN CITIZENGuiding Territory Certificates:

After June 15, 2009, you do not necessarily have to be a guide to hold a Guiding Territory Certificate.Glad to see you gave up OUR strength in this relationship to be a lap dog of some rich financier, well done!

[1/2 slam]

NO...you don't have to be a Canadian citizen to hold a Guiding Territory Certificate, nor do you have to be a guide to hold a guiding territory certificate anymore...Well done on stepping around the facts there Bearmaster. I clearly note citizenship, and you throw out a NON RESIDENT...not the same thing buddy, and you know it. An American, or anyone else for that matter can be a GO or hold a guiding territory certificate as long as they live here a certain period. Guess what, no matter how you twist it, that does not make them Canadians, nor does it place their loyalty with THIS COUNTRY or OUR CITIZENS. So don't pretend everything is everything and blow smoke out your ass when know what I said is 100% TRUE:

To be licenced as a guide outfitter in British Columbia, you must qualify as follows:

you must be a permanent resident of Canada (i.e., be a landed immigrant). - THIS IS NOT A CANADIAN CITIZENGuiding Territory Certificates:

After June 15, 2009, you do not necessarily have to be a guide to hold a Guiding Territory Certificate.Glad to see you gave up OUR strength in this relationship to be a lap dog of some rich financier, well done!

An example Kevin OLMSTEAD and his wife. 3 territories I believe. Not a citizen. They were going to pull them so he had to move up here. Not a citizen.

[MuleyMadness]

An example Kevin OLMSTEAD and his wife. 3 territories I believe. Not a citizen. They were going to pull them so he had to move up here. Not a citizen.

Sorry I don't know who Kevin Olmstead is nor do I know what kind of a GO he is, however even moving up here doesn't make him and his wife a citizen...now they are just residents, and by the definition of the law that's cool for them to own a territory now. Still a non citizen resident's loyalty is somewhere else, with another country and it's citizens, yet we are allowing people to hold Guiding Territory certifcates when CLEARLY their interests are with their native country, not Canada..really people?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

This is one thing I do agree with. You should have to be able to vote in BC before you can hold a guides licence.

[Bearmaster]

Yes I stand corrected on the wording. However that is not a new development. I was refering to allowing Foreign ownership on paper or holding a GO licence. We rejected that.

I have a right to my personal views and I personally am not opposed to the spike fork season in my area. I have persoanlly seen the importance of this season to the local resident hunters.

[Bearmaster]

I believe that GO are still around because majority are small family run businesses. Most are still owned by home grown Bcer's that love hunting and wanted to do it for those reasons. I didn't realise that the second we joined that fraternity , that we became targets lost our resident hunter perspective. I have 4 boys that are hopefully gong to hunt too.

[BCLongshot]

They're like a spoiled rotten r*****ed dog.

Sometimes u just have to put it down !!!


This is my Island !!!

The workin' man has busted his/her ass in this province/country and we're not going to stand by and let some loser screw it all up and then leave !!!

[tangozulu]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/MoosemanBC/GOABCImportantMessageAd.jpg


The ad is just our way of informing the public about what we stand for. We care about wildlife, healthy populations, and proper management so that “everyone” (First Nations, Resident, and Non-Resident Hunters) can have an opportunity for a successful and quality hunting experience. We depend on it and the results will benefit all.

We also know that most resident hunters care for quality experiences, healthy game populations and science based wildlife management.

Think about this: I said it before and am happy to repeat, that many of our 5000 clients that enjoy our province as a hunting destination every year are to be thanked for what they do for all of us. You can also thank many Guide Outfitters for donating hunts to organisations that fight and lobby for your hunting rights. These are battles fought in EU and US courts, Washington, DC and other places that decide and influence decisions that affect all of us.

We also raise funds for Ungulate enhancement projects that have a direct positive impact on game populations that all hunters benefit from.
The handful of individuals demanding an end to the Guide Outfitters in BC are very much misleading and mislead. The benefits of our industry are not only financial, sustaining small family businesses in rural BC, offer jobs in a field that many love to work in, they also come in the form of international lobbying power for hunters and gun owners. We create habitat and manage our areas to the best of our abilities to increase game populations through various programs, we host wildlife workshops that attract top wildlife biologists from around the world to help find the best management tools available, and we lobby other industries to help protect wildlife and habitat while they conduct their business out there. All of the above are benefitting all hunters.
Would hunting in BC really be better without a Guiding industry? The cost of us being here is +- 25% of the allocation share and 2% for the antlerless allocation share. I bet the things we do for hunting and wildlife in BC outweigh what we harvest with our clients.

In conclusion,
I truly believe that the day we look at our self as one, “hunters” is the day we actually all gained something. We have much more in common then not and should work on getting more game out there together vs. fighting in meetings or cyberspace. The real battles for hunting in BC are yet to come and they are not resident hunter vs. guides.



This all sounds so nice and I would just love to aggree we should all sit around the camp fire signing KooByYa........unfortunately it is and alsways has been the BCGOA that ficked this fight. I know many of them and they spend all their non hunting time trying to take away from resident hunters either in access to tags or access to public land. If we want to make any progress together it is up to the commercial guys to pass the olive branch...................fat chance there.

[6616]

I am here to explain the truth to the resident hunters that are reading here.

One of the things we are asking for now is, to let us determine what our 25% share should be and how we can reach it. In return, the resident hunters’ representatives should be able to do the same for that 75% share.
Second, we need that 25% share to be something that we can sell.

There is a serious anomoly above regarding truth vrs opinion. In actual fact Mooseman is not here to tell residents the truth, he is here to tell residents "his opinion", and the opinion/position of the GOABC.

Do you think your 25% should be all the biggest and oldest bulls and rams?

I am at a loss to understand how a 25% of the population of a species can be managed for trophy and quality, while at the same time the other 75% of it can be managed for quantity and maximum opportunity.

What you really asking for: The entire 100% of a species population to be managed for trophy potential and quality so your 25% share meets fits your criteria.

[kgriz]

Come on ...... the majority of guided clients are trophy hunters and want to come up here and see the woods void of resident hunters.

Not sure if I agree with this statement........I've ran into guides with their clients quite a few times and un general the clients always want to stop and BS while the guide was the concerned party that I was there. For that matter most of the guides have been OK too other than always trying to BS me about what was where ( which is reasonable in my eyes as we are in competition for the same trophy at that point) What I can't stand is how the Gov't and/or special interest groups often pander to the Guides and put in the access restrictions because of this

[Bearmaster]

Sorry , I just don't follow this line of thinking. This resident is leaving to go hunt some 4 point Mule Deer in Region 3 ! Me and my resident buddies are looking for wood and then will enjoy the meat !

Till later boys

[BCrams]

Still avoiding the questions and statements made in the economic viability report!

You and the GOABC opened a can of worms with us resident hunters.

[frenchbar]

Willy442, looks like the ads in the paper will continue. Instead of fighting Anti Hunting groups, we will just burn up our money doing our laundry in public. I am sure this will result in just getting rid of hunting all together.I like the idea of fighting this fight in the publics eyes..instead of taking it in the ass from the goabc behind closed door tactics:twisted:

[BCrams]

I like the idea of fighting this fight in the publics eyes..instead of taking it in the ass from the goabc behind closed door tactics:twisted:

You nailed it.

This is what has been happening.

Better to air it all publicly. Even the non-hunters will side with the majority of resident meat hunters.

[f350ps]

Still avoiding the questions and statements made in the economic viability report!

You and the GOABC opened a can of worms with us resident hunters.
I've been following this thread from the beginning and have done so with an open mind. I'm a resident hunter and have never really had an opinion about the GOABC but this thread has really changed my mind. I do think they really are trying to screw us over. That being said, I think that in the not too distant future the First Nations will be the ones that will dictate who hunts when, where and what, for a nominal fee of course. K

[frenchbar]

You nailed it.

This is what has been happening.

Better to air it all publicly. Even the non-hunters will side with the majority of resident meat hunters.sad when fellow British Columbians are selling out on fellow B.C hunters..

[d6dan]

sad when fellow British Columbians are selling out on fellow B.C hunters..

Amazing what money and Greed will do...

[frenchbar]

Amazing what money and Greed will do...Thats it in a nutshell..

[pete_k]

You nailed it.

This is what has been happening.

Better to air it all publicly. Even the non-hunters will side with the majority of resident meat hunters.

That may or may not be true. The anit's will quickly realize less animals will be taken per year if GO's get thier way.
I'm also concerned with GOs getting in bed with First Nations.

The GO's hired some good marketers and seem to be well organized.

My worry is the BCWF is not doing enough to counter this.

[GoatGuy]

Just to clarify a couple of points why I post here. It is not to battle with a group of radical cyber bullies. That would be like negotiating with the Taliban. I am here to explain the truth to the resident hunters that are reading here.
There was a dispute about the allocation of the AAH. Animals that are on quota and/or LEH. That was then negotiated and the outcome is a policy called the Allocation Policy. This policy gives resident hunting priority with an allocation split of 25 – 75 for most species and regions. After that, a matrix changes that split to some degree determined by demand and utilisation.
For the guiding industry on a provincial picture, this policy puts many small family businesses out of business. It has devastating effects for many others.
One of the things we are asking for now is, to let us determine what our 25% share should be and how we can reach it. In return, the resident hunters’ representatives should be able to do the same for that 75% share.
Second, we need that 25% share to be something that we can sell. In some cases meat moose, trophy bulls or nine year old sheep. Whatever it is, it will benefit all BC hunting as it demands healthy and sound game populations and game management based on science.
I can tell you that this is not always the case right now!
Our economic viability paper was written by us to point out some of the above and others that we need in order to be economically viable.
The allocation policy states:
“It is the policy of the Ministry:
That Guide Outfitters’ commercial interests in the harvest of big game species will be addressed by:
(3) Supporting the viability of the guide outfitting industry by committing to:
c. creating and maintaining a regulatory framework that maximizes guided hunters’ success, enjoyment, and participation;”

Your area is in 7A, one of the most successful and stable moose management regimes in the Province. Outfitter allocation more than doubled for 'trophy' bulls when it was brought in (LEH any bull for residents). All in all a good deal for outfitters, no? More than double the tags, residents put on LEH and most importantly to you a sustainable harvest.

Ironically, you've been trying to have the calf and immature bull moose season closed.
What does that have to do with "have one year of 'opportunity' and then have to shut it down totally for years so that the population can recover?" That is and has been a sustainable management strategy.Then I read stuff like this posted on the interweb, apparently from the GOABC economic paper or whatever it's called.

"The management of big game must be conducted in a manner that grows trophyclass animals and restricts provisions such as “spike-fork” seasons for immature bull moose."

2. Is this a part of the GOABC economic paper or is it made up?
3. What exactly does restricts and grow trophy animals mean?
4. What does that have with sustainability?

Now before you go on to say that you don't think the harvest is sustainable and that cow/calf immature bull moose hunting should be shut down let's look at the numbers:

Guide-outfitter cow kill from 1981-2006 = 1005
Guide-outfitter calf kill from 1981-2006 = 523
Guide-outfitter bull kill from 1981-2006 = 5441

So you don't want to harvest cows/calves yet 22% of the outfitter kill was cows and calves. During the same period resident harvest has been stagnant while guide-outfitter kill increased more than 20%. Still seems like a pretty good deal.

This doesn't make sense.

5. If guide-outfitters don't believe it is a sustainable hunt why are they shooting cows/calves especially if they want trophy class animals?



Answer the questions and use numbers to support your arguments - I won't bother if it's written in rhetoric or some other form of inebriated language.

[GoatGuy]

Jesse, my view is what I have seen myself in my area.
The residents are the families that come year after year to hunt our MUs and specifcly in our area. We get along great with majority of the residents that hunt there and even help them pull there Moose out and so on.

They are the happy with the current LEH system and would NOT want to see a GOS.

I actually don't believe that the Action Alliance or BCWF is speaking for the resdient hunter.

I personaly don't have any beef with the spike fork in 7 A. I do havesome concerns with the calf season. I am not saying we have to stop it altogether, but it should be looked at.

Goat guy, the answer is real simple, if I have anterless tags, then I will sell them. I won't have them in 2012.A good number of my hunters are meat hunters.Most of my clients are just average Joe wanting to experience a BC Moose hunt as a once in a lifetime event. They come with their kids and take all the meat home.

The residents in our area, don't mind meeting these folks and get along fine.

In some regions they feel very strongly about their new spike fork season...I can't speak for them.I haven't heard how it went.

Our managers don't feel that 7A could sustain a GOS on big bulls I agree with them.

There is no reason to type all of our arguments out here. If anyone is interested in Moose managment then they will be at Victoria for Nov 15 workshop.The facts will be presented by qualified personal. I am going to listen with a open mind.

For the third time:

Never been much for anecdotal redirection and after the recent phone calls and emails the 'team' mentality either.

There are 5 principal questions here. Answer them or don't bother responding.
__________________________________________________ _______

Another one posted that is part of the GOABC economic report.

"Consistent and fair regulations need to be applied equally to both recreational hunters and the commercial hunting industry. If there is a harvest concern then guides should be on quota and the recreational hunters should be on Limited Entry Hunting (LEH), and vice versa."
Is this the position of GOABC or have lies been posted on the internet?
Are you suggesting guide-outfitters shouldn't have a quota on sheep?
Or are you just suggesting all sheep hunting in BC should be on LEH?4. Considering residents only harvest 30% of the sheep in Region 6 what is your answer?

Take outfitters off quota so they can harvest more sheep?

OR

Put residents on LEH because they harvest 30% of the sheep?

Easy questions, easy answers.

Best if you stay on topic.

[MuleyMadness]

Allocation priority starts first and foremost with First nations at the top! Residents next, and Guide/outfitters next. If we for one minute think that Go's vs residents is going to be the issue, think again. We as users of the resource are going to lose our hunting "priveledges" to the top priority group. It is going to be a nasty battle in which 2000 years of traditional hunting "Rights" will win over the resident and guides "priveledges". It is closer to happening than we all think. Road closure up north, is a start. It will escalate from there. We should lobby together as Resource users to protect what "priveledges" we have left, cause soon we all will be "paying" the first priority users to have the "priveledge" to harvest the resource we currently all love! Moosin

I agree that we should be working together Moosin...however it seems pretty clear GO's have no interest in working together when they consistently pressure the MOE, BIOs, AND resident hunters for reduced allocation, access, stiffer restrictions, etc. Then this ad. I am sorry but it seems to me the GOABC needs to stand up and make the first concilatory move, as they have consistently done whatever is in their power to push us out of the way.

As far as aboriginal rights coming at the expense of all resident hunters to the point where we have our rights taken away, I really don't think that's going to happen. I think if that occurs you will see armed resistance along with out and out rebellion. Anyone who claims the indian unrising is coming is just, imho, using scare tactics to try and frighten resident hunters, plain and simple.

[moosinaround]

It is happening as we read these posts! We toil and infight with each other, giving way to the real threat to our hunting priveleges. No trust by either side, circling our wagons and shooting in!!! The first allocation folks,IE the first nations are more organized than you think!! Taking hand outs from large govt and corporate contributers, they are becoming large corporate entities. They have lots of money too!! If first nations can block mineing projects, projected to employ thousands of BCer's, harvesting activities, Fishing activities what makes you think they won't do the same the same to our priveledges to hunt game?? They have started already, how many folks changed their plans to hunt up north??? What is happening now is that our "Sides" are worried that they won't get their piece of the collective side, or that they need to play favouites to the govt to curry favour when our hunting priveledges are suspended or limited! Come on folks, soon we will have no priveledges to recreate in our own province!! Lobby together pool resources, and fight the fight which needs to be fought!! Put the greed aside and fight to keep our hunting priveledges! Moosin

[Devilbear]

Sounds good and I was, until 2005, actually a supporter of the GOs and have had letters published in "B.C. Outdoors" to that effect and calling for a serious restriction on "packers", remember "Martin" and that character who claimed to be a Vietnam vet and was busted here and in Alberta.....

BUT, what I see NOW is that I am supposed to suck it up and help you guys to eventually screw myself....no, laddy, that old dog won't hunt no more.

[Devilbear]

Bryan Martin, through his buddy, one Kurt Rode of Bozeman, MT, actually threatened me on 24Hr., when I posted FACTUAL material concerning his convictions. He also defamed me in an e-mail I received from the GOABC last year in response to a phone enquiry I made to them about his behaviour.

Martin is considered an "expert" mountain man by many in BC and is MUCH younger than I am; however, if he or one of his henchmen so much as wags a finger at me, that Yankee will go south in cargo.

I wonder, is HE a citizen, yet? Maybe a word to some MPs and the media as I consider poachers about as low as child molesters, pimps, drug dealers and terrorists. He might not make the standards for citizenship, if, the truth were public knowledge.

[BCrams]

One day the people against the G/O will be saying damn I wish we had fought together when we had something to fight for.



I never had issues with the GO'ing business in BC, however what the GOABC as of late the last few years have been doing is unacceptable and has changed my view of them.

They brought it on, not residents.

[moosinaround]

I see the conversation has been kept on track and to the point as usual.:rolleyes: The same ole characters, GOABC VS. resident hunters this time! At least it is not about sheep aging this time!!! I understand your guys passion for the subject, but you guys are going around in circles!! Lets talk about the real issue, how are we going to share this resource??? Is that not what it is actually about? Moosin

[NaStY]

So why is it that most threads of a debating nature have to resort to personal attacks.

The original thread was about our resource. Is it possible to keep this thread back on track?

[yukon john]

Never been much for anecdotal redirection and after the recent phone calls and emails the 'team' mentality either.

There are 5 principal questions here. Answer them or don't bother responding.
__________________________________________________ _______

Another one posted that is part of the GOABC economic report.

"Consistent and fair regulations need to be applied equally to both recreational hunters and the commercial hunting industry. If there is a harvest concern then guides should be on quota and the recreational hunters should be on Limited Entry Hunting (LEH), and vice versa."
Is this the position of GOABC or have lies been posted on the internet?
Are you suggesting guide-outfitters shouldn't have a quota on sheep?
Or are you just suggesting all sheep hunting in BC should be on LEH?4. Considering residents only harvest 30% of the sheep in Region 6 what is your answer?

Take outfitters off quota so they can harvest more sheep?

OR

Put residents on LEH because they harvest 30% of the sheep?

Easy questions, easy answers.

Best if you stay on topic.
the question may not be for me but as a guide here is my 2 cents, the sheep population would benefit greatly from open season for everyone with strict age average rules for outfitters they have this in the yukon and sheep pop. do great because all the guides are scared to shoot a young sheep as a result most outfitters demand 9 year old rams from the guides and often dock pay if young sheep are killed. In short guides stop looking for legal rams and start looking for old rams

[6616]

the question may not be for me but as a guide here is my 2 cents, the sheep population would benefit greatly from open season for everyone with strict age average rules for outfitters they have this in the yukon and sheep pop. do great because all the guides are scared to shoot a young sheep as a result most outfitters demand 9 year old rams from the guides and often dock pay if young sheep are killed. In short guides stop looking for legal rams and start looking for old rams

I appreciate that this works in the Yukon, but there is a much higher demand by resident hunters in BC then there is in the Yukon. The vast difference in the number of resident hunters in the two places makes a significant difference. We simply cannot allow unrestricted non-resident harvest in BC and hope to meet the demand by resident hunters who also would prefer to shoot 9 year old rams if they could, or if there were enough 9 year old rams to go around. This is especially true in the southern GMAs like the Cariboo, Thompson, Kootenay, and Okanagan. This is not a sheep concervation concern under our current horn curl regulations, only a debate over allocation of the resource. Also the debate goes much beyond just sheep, all allocated species in BC are up for grabs in this debate.

[6616]

the question may not be for me but as a guide here is my 2 cents, the sheep population would benefit greatly from open season for everyone with strict age average rules for outfitters they have this in the yukon and sheep pop. do great because all the guides are scared to shoot a young sheep as a result most outfitters demand 9 year old rams from the guides and often dock pay if young sheep are killed. In short guides stop looking for legal rams and start looking for old rams

I might add that the Stone's Sheep harvest in Region 6 in BC is managed in a very similar way as you describe, outfitter quota is dictated by the age of rams harvested the previous year, but due to the access issues involved the non-resident harvest has settled at about 60 to 70 % of the overall harvest, a figure the residents find inappropriate.

I would suggest an answer might be to have a two week resident only season for the first two weeks of the sheep seasons across the province, then reisidents would have priority in the harvest as is intended by BC policy. This is a concept that is reality in many jurisdictions for many species. If residents really do have priority in BC let them have first kick at the can.

[yukon john]

I appreciate that this works in the Yukon, but there is a much higher demand by resident hunters in BC then there is in the Yukon. The vast difference in the number of resident hunters in the two places makes a significant difference. We simply cannot allow unrestricted non-resident harvest in BC and hope to meet the demand by resident hunters who also would prefer to shoot 9 year old rams if they could, or if there were enough 9 year old rams to go around. This is especially true in the southern GMAs like the Cariboo, Thompson, Kootenay, and Okanagan. This is not a sheep concervation concern under our current horn curl regulations, only a debate over allocation of the resource. Also the debate goes much beyond just sheep, all allocated species in BC are up for grabs in this debate.
sorry shouda clarified I was talking about region 6 thats what GG was asking about. I think it would work in that region anyway in fact it does work in a small part of region 6 where the outfit has had astrict 9 year old or better rule for its guides it is arguably the finest stone sheep hunting on the planet. A age restricted outfit wouldnt be shooting 6,7 and 8 year old sheep when they are just full curl instead they would be waiting till 9 which after they have a 50% chance of dying the next winter anyway, just my humble opinion YJ

[GoatGuy]

the question may not be for me but as a guide here is my 2 cents, the sheep population would benefit greatly from open season for everyone with strict age average rules for outfitters they have this in the yukon and sheep pop. do great because all the guides are scared to shoot a young sheep as a result most outfitters demand 9 year old rams from the guides and often dock pay if young sheep are killed. In short guides stop looking for legal rams and start looking for old rams



I've worked for a couple of the outfitters that you mention with age rules, docking pay and paying bonuses for higher average age.

Sounds very rational.

[6616]

sorry shouda clarified I was talking about region 6 thats what GG was asking about. I think it would work in that region anyway in fact it does work in a small part of region 6 where the outfit has had astrict 9 year old or better rule for its guides it is arguably the finest stone sheep hunting on the planet. A age restricted outfit wouldnt be shooting 6,7 and 8 year old sheep when they are just full curl instead they would be waiting till 9 which after they have a 50% chance of dying the next winter anyway, just my humble opinion YJ

It probably would work for conservation requirements but it won't correct the deviation from the calculated allocated harvest percentages. The non-residents currently harvest 60 to 70 percent of the overall harvest and their allocated share is much less then that. It appears the non-resident quotas are much too high, they're not even being fully utilized in most cases, so it actually equates to a wide open unrestricted harvest for guide-outfitters. A resident only season might correct that but what we really need in Region 6 is an inventory so we know how many sheep there actually are so MOE can establish a realistic annual allowable harvest.

[bridger]

I think most serious sheep hunters would agree with harvesting older rams but as other members have pointed out that is not the issue here. not to open old wounds but the reason outfitters are on quota in the first place is that in the old days they didn't harvest on age. they harvested period. As for them targeting older age class rams I wonder if for most of them it is a conservation issue or a monetary one. I don't want my quota cut so don't shoot young rams. It has also been pointed out that for most stone sheep outfitters in the province being on quota doesn't mean anything as the quota's are so high they can't fill them and we have a pretty much wide open season for non residents. This whole issue is not going to be resolved until both the goabc and the moe pay more than lip service to resident priority.

[Little Hawk]

I've read many - not all - pages of this discussion (debacle) and wonder where the BCWF is on this?

As an 'Average Joe' hunter who spends serious money each year to, often times, get out there to enjoy seeing little or no game, I'm second guessing myself as to whether my substantial donation to the 'Resident Priority' fund was a useful thing.

Where's our representation in the Allocation wars, be it with GO's or FN?

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I'd fight 'tooth & nail' to protect my right - and my childrens right's - to drop $1500 - $2000 for a two week fall-vacation to see a coupla' grouse and feed some Whiskey Jack's in camp...

[Gateholio]

I've read many - not all - pages of this discussion (debacle) and wonder where the BCWF is on this?

As an 'Average Joe' hunter who spends serious money each year to, often times, get out there to enjoy seeing little or no game, I'm second guessing myself as to whether my substantial donation to the 'Resident Priority' fund was a useful thing.

..

Who do you think is causing the ruckus?:confused:

[bridger]

Quality hunting is another word for trophy hunting. Quality hunting means fewer hunting opportunities for resident hunters to fill their freezers, quality hunting means leh, quality hunting means little or no resident hunter recruitment. If we are ok with that then the arugment is over and we can let the goabc look after us.

[BiG Boar]

Sorry , I just don't follow this line of thinking. This resident is leaving to go hunt some 4 point Mule Deer in Region 3 ! Me and my resident buddies are looking for wood and then will enjoy the meat !

Till later boys

Region 5 - Last year and this year gave out one of the most antlerless LEH tags in the province. That tells me there is a lot of deer there that need to be harvested. Last year it was any buck, this year 2 of 3 months is 4 point only. Something smells like GOABC wanted more trophy deer in that area.

My opinion is that there should be non resident clients who want to come and hunt here able to pay to do that. I have hunted in NZ and Africa this year and loved being able to do just that. Also, this winter I hope to talk to a GO to harvest a cat. I have no dogs and can't do that on my own without a lot of luck. I am not a GO and don't know any however I believe they do fight for our right to hunt and do support hunting groups like SCI which help hunters and the hunting comunity around the world.

I believe that it is in the best interest of the guides to grow the biggest and most animals possible. Also, I would assume its in thier best interest to limit the number of resident hunters as much as possible in thier guiding territories. They can do this with LEH and controlled access of the land. That is only bussiness.

What I dont like is living here in BC and not having much of a chance in my life time to harvest a bison or a Rosie or a sheep in some areas of BC. That should be changed. However I can only assume that GO's in the province do contribute a lot to the economy and a lot of money to preservation of hunting in BC. For this they deserve some credit.

However if they are trying to take more of our share of animals by saying we are not using the allocation, that would irk me.

Many of our LEH tags are bought by GO's and thier friends and families I am sure in thier zone to try to stop harvesting there. Many LEH's are bought by anti hunters I would imagine to try to stop the killing of one more innocent deer. I am also imagining that unforseen circumstances stop a lot of residents each year from going out and harvesting thier animals, weather it is weather, or access, or time of work, or healt issues.

Instead of giving these tags to the outfitters and reducing my odds furthur of getting an animal one day in that area, they should find a way to get them to residents who are serious and interested and able to go on that hunt. I would cry if I heard of someone winning a rossie or buffalo tag and not being able to go on the hunt or worse finding out the GO's wife won the tag and know that he is not going to use it.:evil:

Now that they are obviously going to try and step on our toes for some of our hunting privledges, I think its stupid to fight against another hunting body, but if someone is taking away my right to hunt, I will fight against whoever that is.

Though we all know, we as residents could never really agree on an allocation for GO's and us.

[betteroffishing]

its simple , make leh drawn tags transferable. make it illegal to proffit from said transfer and see where that goes. when i am applying for my leh draws i have no idea if i will be able to actually get that time off work , nevermind those who i hunt with getting the same. i just hope for the best and put in. if i were not able to go on a leh hunt i was drawn for , it sure would be nice to be able to tell all of you about it and see it used bu someone. not as good an answer as eliminating non res hunting for all leh species / seasons but an augmentation that might see a truer number of leh allocations used.

[Mooseman]

I've read many - not all - pages of this discussion (debacle) and wonder where the BCWF is on this?

As an 'Average Joe' hunter who spends serious money each year to, often times, get out there to enjoy seeing little or no game, I'm second guessing myself as to whether my substantial donation to the 'Resident Priority' fund was a useful thing.

Where's our representation in the Allocation wars, be it with GO's or FN?

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I'd fight 'tooth & nail' to protect my right - and my childrens right's - to drop $1500 - $2000 for a two week fall-vacation to see a coupla' grouse and feed some Whiskey Jack's in camp...

Thank you for your post!
This is actually an opinion many resident hunters have. Especially this year.
The resident hunter’s interests in the allocation negotiation were represented well. Your priority over GO’s but after FN is set in stone. And that is a done deal.
Now the fight is about how to manage wildlife.
It is like this:
We know how the pie will be cut each 5 years but we disagree about it being an apple or pumpkin pie. When instead we should work on making that pie bigger. We also will be fighting FN’s for the forks we need to eat it. (See Kwadacha)

[Mooseman]

its simple , make leh drawn tags transferable. make it illegal to proffit from said transfer and see where that goes. when i am applying for my leh draws i have no idea if i will be able to actually get that time off work , nevermind those who i hunt with getting the same. i just hope for the best and put in. if i were not able to go on a leh hunt i was drawn for , it sure would be nice to be able to tell all of you about it and see it used bu someone. not as good an answer as eliminating non res hunting for all leh species / seasons but an augmentation that might see a truer number of leh allocations used.

That will not work because the LEH authorisations are inflated to meet the harvest target.
For example, the MOE wants 50 Bull Moose shot in 7-13, they give out 115 LEH permits. If you alter that by getting more successful, they still only want 50 bulls to be shot. Therefore, they will have to lower the number of LEH permits they give out.

[Mooseman]

Quality hunting is another word for trophy hunting. Quality hunting means fewer hunting opportunities for resident hunters to fill their freezers, quality hunting means leh, quality hunting means little or no resident hunter recruitment. If we are ok with that then the arugment is over and we can let the goabc look after us.

Sorry you are wrong Rich :-?

[GoatGuy]

Thank you for your post!
This is actually an opinion many resident hunters have. Especially this year.
The resident hunter’s interests in the allocation negotiation were represented well. Your priority over GO’s but after FN is set in stone. And that is a done deal.
Now the fight is about how to manage wildlife.
It is like this:
We know how the pie will be cut each 5 years but we disagree about it being an apple or pumpkin pie. When instead we should work on making that pie bigger. We also will be fighting FN’s for the forks we need to eat it. (See Kwadacha)

No, that's actually not correct. You asked to have the Allocation Policy re-opened last winter and you have also asked for delayed implementation to the Allocation policy, a policy you already agreed to. Now that the first and second haven't worked the tune has changed.

If you don't agree to the policy say so and let the rest of us know. Otherwise zip it.

So far as making the pie bigger - that was in the works, but that was before you tried to sandbag the allocation policy and take more away from the resident hunter. That was also before this report of yours.

The right to hunt comes before making more animals for resident hunters. Sorry.

I see you won't answer questions.

Some friendly advice would be to get off of trying to reduce resident opportunity, drop the garbage. and get on board with trying to create more animals. No backdoor crap. Also, you should talk to some of your members who are actually resident hunters first and see what they think about what's gone on. Talking to some of the retired GOs might help your perspective as well. Then maybe you'll understand.

[BCrams]

Sorry you are wrong Rich :-?


Mooseman .... you are wrong. Let me refresh your memory.

Rich is correct.

The following was taken from your Economic Viability Report: Look at the second one.... from page 5.

Own up.



From the GOABC's "Economic Viability Report" prepared by GOABC president Scott Ellis:

Page 9: Recommendations: Quality Big Game Species: The management of big game must be conducted in a manner that grows trophy-class animals and restricts provisions such as "spike-fork" seasons for immature moose.

Page 5: The GOABC does not support the liberalization of hunting regulations in an attempt to recruit hunters at the expense of wildlife and a quality hunting experience.

[Devilbear]

Man, the same old bullshit goes 'round and 'round here from the GO posters and I STILL would like to KNOW what this "Kwadacha" situation is...or, perhaps, it is a "redfish"........

The GOABC will NEVER deal honestly and fairly and repectfully with we residents who own BC and the ONLY longterm solution to this imbroglio is to eliminate their financial resource base by banning Americans from hunting-angling here in BC. We can debate here until we all drop dead of old age, BUT, MONEY TALKS and if we cutoff their $$$$$, they will be powerless...and a good thing, too.

[Mooseman]

No, that's actually not correct. You asked to have the Allocation Policy re-opened last winter and you have also asked for delayed implementation to the Allocation policy, a policy you already agreed to. Now that the first and second haven't worked the tune has changed.

If you don't agree to the policy say so and let the rest of us know. Otherwise zip it.

So far as making the pie bigger - that was in the works, but that was before you tried to sandbag the allocation policy and take more away from the resident hunter. That was also before this report of yours.

The right to hunt comes before making more animals for resident hunters. Sorry.

I see you won't answer questions.

Some friendly advice would be to get off of trying to reduce resident opportunity, drop the garbage. and get on board with trying to create more animals. No backdoor crap. Also, you should talk to some of your members who are actually resident hunters first and see what they think about what's gone on. Talking to some of the retired GOs might help your perspective as well. Then maybe you'll understand.

Jessie, I do not want to get in to a statistics debate with you. My knowledge is not in numbers as I spend 200 days a year in the bush hunting and fishing. You and the once around you are not representing the views of most resident hunters. At least not the hunters I talk to when out there. You use scare tactics to get others to buy in to your reports and make them believe that the GOABC and all guides are some alien invasion that needs to be terminated.
Such extremist’s views are hard to understand.
I am a resident hunter as well.
My two boys are resident hunters.
My guides are all resident hunters.
My friends are resident hunters.
I work with resident hunters and their representatives to make 7A a better place for hunters. (Spin it how you want). Fact is that you guys are demanding “opportunity” where there is no game population to do it with. We are saying let’s get the game populations out there first before we open seasons to shoot the shit out of them.
The day will come when you and the once around you will be exposed for what you really did. That day is coming fast. While you spend these funds to bash outfitters, the FN’s are shutting down hundreds of km’s of roads to white hunters.

Can you answer me two things. In your opinion:
1 What is opportunety?
2 What is quality?

[musket]

Re: GOABC Add in Today's Paper
It's been said on here on more than one occassion.....If Residents need to be put on LEH for a species in an area, then there should be ZERO Guided clients in that area for that species in that area. If we can accomplish this, the GOABC would ceratinly change their tune when it comes to attempting to get resident hunters on LEH

Hierarchy is..

1)conservation..and if that is met..

2)First Nation Harvest...and if that need is met...

3) resident harvest...and if that need is met.....and ONLY then

4) non-resident harvest

Time to get back to basics!!

the basics are that as a first nations hunter who has previously been able to hunt in my area as well as hunt in other tribes areas I am no longer able to do that because not only you as the resident hunters go out and kill game, but you want to go and kill a moose and a deer and a sheep and whatever else you set your sites on, in one season I might add.And you put basically nothing into to the hunting industry, but take it out. As for the GO they are at least bringing money into our province and also jobs for alot of natives, who enjoy going out and guiding, along with providing for there families.You also must realize that the GO are already limited to taking only so many animals in a year. You the resident hunters want to have everything, thinking only of yourself, which for most of you this is a pleasure, you should also think of it as a privledge since you really do not need the meat to sustain yourself, as alot of the first nations people do. some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. we as first nations people are now on LEH because of resident and GO hunting. If handled correctly, there will be enough game for us all, if we DO NOT get CREEDY. wakeup and smell the roses you may have already had to much coffee. I am new to this site, and find alot of these posting very dissappointing.

[Rudock]

Quality hunting is another word for trophy hunting. Quality hunting means fewer hunting opportunities for resident hunters to fill their freezers, quality hunting means leh, quality hunting means little or no resident hunter recruitment. If we are ok with that then the arugment is over and we can let the goabc look after us.

Here is an experpt from the magazine "Fair Chase", From the Editor

" The "trophy hunter" modification has become so sensationally misinterpreted by the great non-hunting public and spun so craftily by the anti-hunting agenda that its use is generally discouraged by the thoughtful outdoorsmen and outdoors professionals. From the perspective of writing and editing for the traditional outdoors, "Kill", too, has followed the same literary fate as the T-H phrase during the past half century.

It's a shame that the trophy-hunter term has converted into an uncool suggestion to some and is viewed as a treacherous conception to others because it works so well as the descriptive for the selective hunter. Were someone to suggest to me that they were a "trophy Hunter" or that such-and-such was a trophy hunter then I would assume that those persons hunted with higher self-imposed limitations; killing less, experiencing more. Following nearly 40 years of interface with hundreds of Nimrod, I can't, however, recall anyone ever flying the trophy-hunter banner in the course of conversation. "Hunter" it seems, is always enough. Trophy is a lovely, nearly pure piece of language, whether it is used alone or with most other words. Millions of cheap plastic-and-faux-marble trophies are handed out every year to young athletes and scholars to keep as diminutive, shiny monuments to their achievements. With stars in their eyes, most everyone learns about the symbols for great deeds at an early age. From the Nobel to the Academy, the Lombardi to the coach-pitch championship, there are physical mementos under ever rocky outcrop in these modern times. This is so good for humankind that we're now handing amulets out by the boxcar load to all of the children. Little Johnny's club finished dead last, but everyone in the league gets a trophy.

In the hunting, We also have trophy class, trophy buck, trophy unit and trophy fee. Those who market traditional outdoors gear, and those who check off on their work, often use "trophy" in their campaigns like weapons, even while the word "weapon" is shunned as a poor and uncomfortble substitute for hunting rifles, bird guns, powerful handguns, and bow-and-arrow sets. I admit to feeling a bit of personal discomfort with all of the aforementioned uses of trophy, but I am undoubtedly super sensitized to the negative perceptions that might be caused by the word's overuse. All of the above are very descriptive within what has become the lexicon of the hunting culture, and so, I regularly use more than half of them myself during the streams of idle coversation with other hunters.

The rub is found in the idea that horns, antlers, skulls and hides are the singular trophies of the hunting experience, and that people who would kill and render natural revelations solely for those things are monsters. Of course, such trophy wantonness, such heinous crimes against nature do occur with rarity every season. But as difficult as it is for fair-monded people to comprehend acts of cold-blooded megalomania, dementia and/or dangerously whacky ignorance, there is also the paradox of association. That the true trophy hunting elite is the group most offended by such scandalous acts against wildlife probably seems completely out of context to many non-hunters.

This business with the word trophy really isn't the sticky issue that it could be, thanks to moral-compass-bearing organizations with clear purpose like the Boone & Crocket Club. Right in the exact center of the word and its uses is where you find the club, teaching, suggesting, and influencing, not only hunters, but policy makers, too. There is good science and counter-strike intelligence in the history of qualified, records-book game, as well as opportunities, even obligations, to pilot perhaps the most important civilian flagship of North American hunting. Metaphorically, B&C is the gunboat escort powered by principle, decency, and conscientious activism, armed with an uncompromising, immeasurable reverence for big game - a power wedge of original animal-loving zealots who don't have to be told that hunting within the doctrines of fair chase is to quietly define the word trophy."

[BCrams]

Quote:

Can you answer me two things. In your opinion:

1 What is opportunety?
2 What is quality?


I can answer that using a small example from the Region 7a calf moose season. (the very same opportunity you are trying to take away from us resident hunters)

1. What is opportunity.

The calf moose season provides myself an opportunity to go and fill my freezer with excellent venision. I have only been drawn for moose 3x in Region 7a for the past 20 years. That calf moose season gives me the best opportunity at harvesting moose for my freezer.

You know as well as I do, that harvesting a spike / fork is a pretty rare event in general terms for the hunter and VERY DISCOURAGING.

2. Quality.

The quality hunting times I have had when hunting during the calf moose season with a reasonable amount of success with my father and friends over the years (because getting the LEH is tough as it is) is invaluable.

I took a new hunter (9yrs old) out for his first ever moose hunt. I took him out during the calf season because it offers a great hunting opportunity, and it provides a reasonable amount of success to fill the freezer.

THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY.

THIS IS THE QUALITY AND OPPORTUNITY YOU (GOABC) WANT TO TAKE AWAY BY LOBBYING TO REMOVE THE CALF MOOSE SEASON in Region 7A.

This is irreplacable.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/PA100014.jpg

[wetcoasthunter]

Jessie, I do not want to get in to a statistics debate with you. My knowledge is not in numbers as I spend 200 days a year in the bush hunting and fishing. You and the once around you are not representing the views of most resident hunters. At least not the hunters I talk to when out there. You use scare tactics to get others to buy in to your reports and make them believe that the GOABC and all guides are some alien invasion that needs to be terminated.
Such extremist’s views are hard to understand.
I am a resident hunter as well.
My two boys are resident hunters.
My guides are all resident hunters.
My friends are resident hunters.
I work with resident hunters and their representatives to make 7A a better place for hunters. (Spin it how you want). Fact is that you guys are demanding “opportunity” where there is no game population to do it with. We are saying let’s get the game populations out there first before we open seasons to shoot the shit out of them.


Comparing yourself to a regular joe hunter is laughable at best. How many guys do you know spend 200 days in the bush hunting and fishing?? You have far more oppertunity than the vast majority of residents based soley on the number of days you are in the field. So if there are strict restrictions on game it shouldn't bother you as much as a person that has only a week (or less) per year to get his/her game. So don't try and play the "I'm just like you guys" card.

And the use of scare tactics?? I think that both sides use their fair share, but don't play it like the GOABC are innocent of this, the use of words/phrases like slaughter, shoot the shit out of, NO game population, etc are just a few examples.

It seems to me regardless of how much research is done on game the GOABC seems adament that there needs to be more before any change to the seasons can occur. A delay tactic diguised as concern for wildlife.

For me it comes down to logic and numbers. half the # of hunters as 20+yrs ago, FAR more restrictive seasons than 20+yrs ago, from MANY anecdotal accounts there is lots of game in many areas, and it seems the MOE feels there is enough game in many areas to TRY and liberalize the seasons.
So explain how we were able to maintain for the most part, very liberal seasons combined with FAR more hunters for decades! Explain to me how we CANNOT open things up more in many areas? How much more evidence is needed for the GOABC to be happy?

[Mooseman]

Quote:

Can you answer me two things. In your opinion:

1 What is opportunety?
2 What is quality?


I can answer that using a small example from the Region 7a calf moose season. (the very same opportunity you are trying to take away from us resident hunters)

1. What is opportunity.

The calf moose season provides myself an opportunity to go and fill my freezer with excellent venision. I have only been drawn for moose 3x in Region 7a for the past 20 years. That calf moose season gives me the best opportunity at harvesting moose for my freezer.

You know as well as I do, that harvesting a spike / fork is a pretty rare event in general terms for the hunter and VERY DISCOURAGING.

2. Quality.

The quality hunting times I have had when hunting during the calf moose season with a reasonable amount of success with my father and friends over the years (because getting the LEH is tough as it is) is invaluable.

I took a new hunter (9yrs old) out for his first ever moose hunt. I took him out during the calf season because it offers a great hunting opportunity, and it provides a reasonable amount of success to fill the freezer.

THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY.

THIS IS THE QUALITY AND OPPORTUNITY YOU (GOABC) WANT TO TAKE AWAY BY LOBBYING TO REMOVE THE CALF MOOSE SEASON in Region 7A.

This is irreplacable.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/PA100014.jpg


OK, I get that.
Here is what I am saying, let that calf (100 lbs meat) grow up to be a grown moose (400 lbs meat) and then hunt for it with our kids.

The 25% share of the GO’s Bull Moose allocation will not solve the resident’s opportunity issues or number of LEH’s for big bull problems at all. If you would take us out of the picture, so will the positive things we do for hunting and the populations. Like predator and habitat programs that, we pay for. As I mentioned before they more than outweigh what we take with our clients.

I am not after your calf. I am trying to convert it in to a bull for you with 4 times the meat on it.

[Devilbear]

Re: GOABC Add in Today's Paper
It's been said on here on more than one occassion.....If Residents need to be put on LEH for a species in an area, then there should be ZERO Guided clients in that area for that species in that area. If we can accomplish this, the GOABC would ceratinly change their tune when it comes to attempting to get resident hunters on LEH

Hierarchy is..

1)conservation..and if that is met..

2)First Nation Harvest...and if that need is met...

3) resident harvest...and if that need is met.....and ONLY then

4) non-resident harvest

Time to get back to basics!!

the basics are that as a first nations hunter who has previously been able to hunt in my area as well as hunt in other tribes areas I am no longer able to do that because not only you as the resident hunters go out and kill game, but you want to go and kill a moose and a deer and a sheep and whatever else you set your sites on, in one season I might add.And you put basically nothing into to the hunting industry, but take it out. As for the GO they are at least bringing money into our province and also jobs for alot of natives, who enjoy going out and guiding, along with providing for there families.You also must realize that the GO are already limited to taking only so many animals in a year. You the resident hunters want to have everything, thinking only of yourself, which for most of you this is a pleasure, you should also think of it as a privledge since you really do not need the meat to sustain yourself, as alot of the first nations people do. some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. we as first nations people are now on LEH because of resident and GO hunting. If handled correctly, there will be enough game for us all, if we DO NOT get CREEDY. wakeup and smell the roses you may have already had to much coffee. I am new to this site, and find alot of these posting very dissappointing.

Well, gentlemen, it would seem that "Mooseman" is "righton" about one very serious issue which affects us all as this racist, ignorant and highly offensive post so clearly demonstrates.

Perhaps we have TWO "enemies" and we have been FAR TOO tolerant with one of them, maybe, THE worst problem we face...............

[bridger]

OK, I get that.
Here is what I am saying, let that calf (100 lbs meat) grow up to be a grown moose (400 lbs meat) and then hunt for it with our kids.

The 25% share of the GO’s Bull Moose allocation will not solve the resident’s opportunity issues or number of LEH’s for big bull problems at all. If you would take us out of the picture, so will the positive things we do for hunting and the populations. Like predator and habitat programs that, we pay for. As I mentioned before they more than outweigh what we take with our clients.

I am not after your calf. I am trying to convert it in to a bull for you with 4 times the meat on it.



Therein lies the problem as I see it. The goabc wants to make the rules. try going for 20 years with out an opportunity to hunt big bulls in your back yard because you can't draw a tag and therefor have no opportunity other than watch hunting videos. that is one of the main reasons we have fewer resident hunters. why can't you guides be satisfied with what you have been allocated without hammering away at us. Guide outfitters and non residents have a far higher share of the annual harvest in bc than any other jurisdiction that has a signicificant number of resident hunters. you mention 25% of the bull moose for bc guides Saskatchewan outfitters get 4%. Alberta outfitters buy the tags they sell to non residents. BC outfitters are subsidized instead. We have bent over backwards to accomodate the viability of the guiding industry in this province and seems like it is never enough. Sugar coat anyway you like, quality hunting means fewer opportunities for residents. that isn't a scare tactic it is a fact!

[6616]

It is like this:
We know how the pie will be cut each 5 years but we disagree about it being an apple or pumpkin pie. When instead we should work on making that pie bigger. We also will be fighting FN’s for the forks we need to eat it. (See Kwadacha)

It's interesting that the quotes posted by BCR calling for the reduction and elimination of several resident hunting opportunities, came from the GOABC paper called "A Report on the Economic viability of the Guide-Outfitting Industry", not from a report on conservation based game management, or game management with an objective to increase populations across the board so everyone's piece of the pie is bigger.

If you look at mule deer populations in Region 5, elk and White tailed deer populations in Region 4, elk populations in much of 7b Stone sheep summer range areas, white tailed deer populations in Region 8, these populations are at or near carrying capacity and increasing the size of the pie is impossible or will compromise other species.

This is all about "economics" for the guide-outfitting industry and has squat to do with conservation and certainly has nothing to do with any level of concern for resident hunters.

One outfitter told me the quality of hunts they offer is being compromised by hoards of resident hunters in the bush during the spike/fork moose season. So it boils down to quality means more trophy class animals which means a lower overall harvest of males, or less crowding which means fewer resident hunters in the bush. That's what this is all about for guide-outfitters plain and simple, so don't be mislead by comments that most resident hunters support their strategy, or that they are trying to create bigger populations for all to benefit from.

What they're really doing is trying to manipulate wildlife management so the wildlife population cross-section and resident hunter density better suits their economic needs.

[Kody94]

OK, I get that.
Here is what I am saying, let that calf (100 lbs meat) grow up to be a grown moose (400 lbs meat) and then hunt for it with our kids.

I am not after your calf. I am trying to convert it in to a bull for you with 4 times the meat on it.


What you are completely missing in your response is the fact that BCRams (and his hunting companions) can sustainably hunt that 100lb calf every year.

As soon as you turn it into a bull with 4x the meat on it, it goes to LEH....so instead, he gets to hunt one every 7 years or so according to his current LEH batting average.

I'd much rather take a chance at 100lbs per year, and all the hunting days that go with it, over a chance at 400lbs every 5 to 7 years. I think its pretty safe to say the majority of residents feel the same way.

Make it so that I can sustainably hunt a 400lb bull every year again, and you'll get my interest.

[BCrams]

OK, I get that.
Here is what I am saying, let that calf (100 lbs meat) grow up to be a grown moose (400 lbs meat) and then hunt for it with our kids.

The 25% share of the GO’s Bull Moose allocation will not solve the resident’s opportunity issues or number of LEH’s for big bull problems at all. If you would take us out of the picture, so will the positive things we do for hunting and the populations. Like predator and habitat programs that, we pay for. As I mentioned before they more than outweigh what we take with our clients.

I am not after your calf. I am trying to convert it in to a bull for you with 4 times the meat on it.


What are you proposing that will allow myself, my kids, and new hunters the opportunity to hunt moose every single year like the calf moose season presents???

I have only had 3 ... count it .. 1 2 3 bull moose draws in 20 years in 7a.

No, I don't buy your garbage about wanting to convert it into a bull tag of which I may get lucky to draw only 3 more times by the time I'm 60 years old.

I have been a supporter and had no issues with Guide Outfitting operations. Nor did I ever have the mentality of 'get rid of GO's'.

HOWEVER .... your tactics and what you are pushing for the last 3-5 years and more so the last couple years are disgusting with the backdoor/room deals has changed my thinking and tune about the GOABC.

It turns my stomach to see you push for removal if the spike / fork and calf season. (as well as LEH sheep and the Region 5 deer fiasco etc)

[betteroffishing]

wow musket , why dont you open up and tell all us horribly greedy tax paying citisens how you really feel about us. i thaught food was factored into the final dollar value of cheques written to those " starving " fn peoples who in your estimation " need " the resource more than me and mine . your comments are racist and dont help move the conversation forward. shame on you.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Re: GOABC Add in Today's Paper
It's been said on here on more than one occassion.....If Residents need to be put on LEH for a species in an area, then there should be ZERO Guided clients in that area for that species in that area. If we can accomplish this, the GOABC would ceratinly change their tune when it comes to attempting to get resident hunters on LEH

Hierarchy is..

1)conservation..and if that is met..

2)First Nation Harvest...and if that need is met...

3) resident harvest...and if that need is met.....and ONLY then

4) non-resident harvest

Time to get back to basics!!

the basics are that as a first nations hunter who has previously been able to hunt in my area as well as hunt in other tribes areas I am no longer able to do that because not only you as the resident hunters go out and kill game, but you want to go and kill a moose and a deer and a sheep and whatever else you set your sites on, in one season I might add.And you put basically nothing into to the hunting industry, but take it out. As for the GO they are at least bringing money into our province and also jobs for alot of natives, who enjoy going out and guiding, along with providing for there families.You also must realize that the GO are already limited to taking only so many animals in a year. You the resident hunters want to have everything, thinking only of yourself, which for most of you this is a pleasure, you should also think of it as a privledge since you really do not need the meat to sustain yourself, as alot of the first nations people do. some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. we as first nations people are now on LEH because of resident and GO hunting. If handled correctly, there will be enough game for us all, if we DO NOT get CREEDY. wakeup and smell the roses you may have already had to much coffee. I am new to this site, and find alot of these posting very dissappointing.



Having a hard time finding game??? What region do you live in???:confused:

Do you think that limiting GO's in Region 6 to 70% of the sheep is fair???

SSS

[Kody94]

Re: GOABC Add in Today's Paper
the basics are that as a first nations hunter who has previously been able to hunt in my area as well as hunt in other tribes areas I am no longer able to do that because not only you as the resident hunters go out and kill game, but you want to go and kill a moose and a deer and a sheep and whatever else you set your sites on, in one season I might add.And you put basically nothing into to the hunting industry, but take it out. As for the GO they are at least bringing money into our province and also jobs for alot of natives, who enjoy going out and guiding, along with providing for there families.You also must realize that the GO are already limited to taking only so many animals in a year. You the resident hunters want to have everything, thinking only of yourself, which for most of you this is a pleasure, you should also think of it as a privledge since you really do not need the meat to sustain yourself, as alot of the first nations people do. some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. we as first nations people are now on LEH because of resident and GO hunting. If handled correctly, there will be enough game for us all, if we DO NOT get CREEDY. wakeup and smell the roses you may have already had to much coffee. I am new to this site, and find alot of these posting very dissappointing.

HUH?

Please explain how resident non-FN hunters put nothing into the hunting industry.

On the second point hilighted in red, although I'm sympathetic to the economic situation that many FN's find themselves in, it seems to me that whether one can afford to buy "store bought" protein has SFA to do with the arguement at hand (we are all hunters who prefer to get our own protien from the wild), and is more related to one's propensity to get and keep a full time job than it is to their cultural background.

[f350ps]

Re: GOABC Add in Today's Paper
It's been said on here on more than one occassion.....If Residents need to be put on LEH for a species in an area, then there should be ZERO Guided clients in that area for that species in that area. If we can accomplish this, the GOABC would ceratinly change their tune when it comes to attempting to get resident hunters on LEH

Hierarchy is..

1)conservation..and if that is met..

2)First Nation Harvest...and if that need is met...

3) resident harvest...and if that need is met.....and ONLY then

4) non-resident harvest

Time to get back to basics!!

the basics are that as a first nations hunter who has previously been able to hunt in my area as well as hunt in other tribes areas I am no longer able to do that because not only you as the resident hunters go out and kill game, but you want to go and kill a moose and a deer and a sheep and whatever else you set your sites on, in one season I might add.And you put basically nothing into to the hunting industry, but take it out. As for the GO they are at least bringing money into our province and also jobs for alot of natives, who enjoy going out and guiding, along with providing for there families.You also must realize that the GO are already limited to taking only so many animals in a year. You the resident hunters want to have everything, thinking only of yourself, which for most of you this is a pleasure, you should also think of it as a privledge since you really do not need the meat to sustain yourself, as alot of the first nations people do. some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. we as first nations people are now on LEH because of resident and GO hunting. If handled correctly, there will be enough game for us all, if we DO NOT get CREEDY. wakeup and smell the roses you may have already had to much coffee. I am new to this site, and find alot of these posting very dissappointing.
This post takes the cake as one of the most self centered bits of B.S. I've ever read on here. To say that hunters don't contribute to the hunting industry is laughable at the very least. Why don't you tell us what the average FN contributes in after TAX dollars to the industry? This sure confirms a lot of what I suspected, but never thought I would ever here somebody say it. VERY disappointing is right!! K

[Rudock]

So explain how we were able to maintain for the most part, very liberal seasons combined with FAR more hunters for decades! Explain to me how we CANNOT open things up more in many areas? How much more evidence is needed for the GOABC to be happy?


I think the main issue here is the road Densities throughout the province. In 2005 forest roads increased by 70% of 1988 levels. In 1988 it was estimated that there were 387,000 kms of road. That would mean that in 2005 there were 658,000 kms of forest road. This in turn has severely increased our ability to harvest game.

[Mooseman]

Comparing yourself to a regular joe hunter is laughable at best. How many guys do you know spend 200 days in the bush hunting and fishing?? You have far more oppertunity than the vast majority of residents based soley on the number of days you are in the field. So if there are strict restrictions on game it shouldn't bother you as much as a person that has only a week (or less) per year to get his/her game. So don't try and play the "I'm just like you guys" card.

And the use of scare tactics?? I think that both sides use their fair share, but don't play it like the GOABC are innocent of this, the use of words/phrases like slaughter, shoot the shit out of, NO game population, etc are just a few examples.

It seems to me regardless of how much research is done on game the GOABC seems adament that there needs to be more before any change to the seasons can occur. A delay tactic diguised as concern for wildlife.

For me it comes down to logic and numbers. half the # of hunters as 20+yrs ago, FAR more restrictive seasons than 20+yrs ago, from MANY anecdotal accounts there is lots of game in many areas, and it seems the MOE feels there is enough game in many areas to TRY and liberalize the seasons.
So explain how we were able to maintain for the most part, very liberal seasons combined with FAR more hunters for decades! Explain to me how we CANNOT open things up more in many areas? How much more evidence is needed for the GOABC to be happy?


My apology, I should have been more clear. When I go hunt with friends and family, we too just go for a week or long weekend. The 200+ days refer to work/guiding.

Sorry about using these terms. When there is such tremendous pressure to open a very generous WT Deer season across the province and we do not have any to speak of in 7A, I don’t know what to say or how to describe it. The same goes for an overwhelming push to get and keep an antlerless mule deer season even though they were reduced by over 70% from winter kill. Would you call that wildlife management? Or MOE responding to pressure to create “opportunity”?

Logic and numbers:
I said earlier that I am not good with numbers but I can give it a stab. Things have changed:
The resident hunter numbers are way up. Over 100.000, last I heard. A success story for “recruitment”.
The other goal to “retain” will be tough if it isn’t any fun being out there. Wouldn’t you say? That is the story I get from many parts of the Omineca.

Also when old timers tell me that they used to see 15-20 moose a day when out hunting and today they can go for a week and see 2 or 0, I think that is a hint.
An old time outfitter used to shoot 100 bulls a year and his predecessor gets maybe 8 or so.
There were thousands of kilometres of new roads build in the last couple of years. Salvage logging created unprecedented landscapes in 7A and 6 South.
MOE has no money to do WL counts. Just ratios (cow/calf, and cow/bull ratios).

I can agree to any season (and I can only speak for Omineca) GOS or otherwise if I believe that it is not devastating to a population or a management objective.
Fact is that neither moose or deer are at or anywhere close to carrying capacity in 7A. So to answer your last question, I will be happy when we get and achieve management objectives in the Omineca. And these should come from people that live here. Not from Kelowna or Voctoria!!!!

I am for resident priority. Residents of the Omineca region.

[Mooseman]

What you are completely missing in your response is the fact that BCRams (and his hunting companions) can sustainably hunt that 100lb calf every year.

As soon as you turn it into a bull with 4x the meat on it, it goes to LEH....so instead, he gets to hunt one every 7 years or so according to his current LEH batting average.

I'd much rather take a chance at 100lbs per year, and all the hunting days that go with it, over a chance at 400lbs every 5 to 7 years. I think its pretty safe to say the majority of residents feel the same way.

Make it so that I can sustainably hunt a 400lb bull every year again, and you'll get my interest.


Now we are getting to the chicken or egg question. By the way, you are wrong in regards to the calf season support. A poll I did on HBC was at 50/50 last time I checked. I bet you money if you did that poll with in 7A only that would even look different again.

[wetcoasthunter]

I think the main issue here is the road Densities throughout the province. In 2005 forest roads increased by 70% of 1988 levels. In 1988 it was estimated that there were 387,000 kms of road. That would mean that in 2005 there were 658,000 kms of forest road. This in turn has severely increased our ability to harvest game.


So back in 1988 the areas people could get into were HEAVILY hunted?? And still people were successful....go figure. Meaning a smaller area, heavily hunted, by many more hunters than we have today, with liberal seasons, could still maintain high enough populations for successful hunts. I would see the increase in roads as spreading out the hunters and not concerntrating them in smaller areas thus avoiding 1 area being hammered. A good thing, not a bad thing for game in my opinion.

Nevertheless, hard to argue the fact we have 1/2 the hunters as back then, I don't care how many KMs of road there is, I don't think the hunters of today are any more successful than the hunters of 20yrs ago, and if we are then certainly not enough to make a great difference.

[PGK]

Michael, you know so little about what is happening in this region, it's astounding. I think you should just keep your mouth shut, instead of digging yourself an even bigger hole.

You have a business to run. I say you run it, and let people with a clue regulate you, instead of getting yourself worked up and confused about what YOU think is proper wildlife management. You really don't have any idea. You're basing your prophecies on 'old timer' knowledge and emotional issues regarding killing 'baby' moose. Couple that with an innate hatred of resident hunters shooting ''your'' moose, and you get garbage posts like you've been making. You should be very glad your territory isn't in 7-24, or you and I might have some very serious malfunctions.

[Mooseman]

What are you proposing that will allow myself, my kids, and new hunters the opportunity to hunt moose every single year like the calf moose season presents???

I have only had 3 ... count it .. 1 2 3 bull moose draws in 20 years in 7a.

No, I don't buy your garbage about wanting to convert it into a bull tag of which I may get lucky to draw only 3 more times by the time I'm 60 years old.

I have been a supporter and had no issues with Guide Outfitting operations. Nor did I ever have the mentality of 'get rid of GO's'.

HOWEVER .... your tactics and what you are pushing for the last 3-5 years and more so the last couple years are disgusting with the backdoor/room deals has changed my thinking and tune about the GOABC.

It turns my stomach to see you push for removal if the spike / fork and calf season. (as well as LEH sheep and the Region 5 deer fiasco etc)

I would like to make one thing very clear.
We in 7A are not asking for a closure on the spike/fork bull season for the omineca.

As for the rest, I can only say what I truly want and that is to add these calf’s in to the mature moose population for you to harvest. I don’t know how else to say it.

To harvest anything but the male component has a negative effect on the population. You can cut that how you like but that is fact and if you are saying we don’t need more moose in 7A, I will have to disagree.

There are many ways to get there and when I bring them up I get shot at e.g. CN, predation.

You tell me what to do. Sounds like you are from 7A? Some meetings back the BCWF reps. Wanted a GOS on bull moose in 7A with a no quota for guides.
Sounds great right? Would solve my personal allocation issue but would kill moose in 7A to a point of devastation. Am I wrong?

[BCrams]

Now we are getting to the chicken or egg question. By the way, you are wrong in regards to the calf season support. A poll I did on HBC was at 50/50 last time I checked. I bet you money if you did that poll with in 7A only that would even look different again.

Lets tie that poll you did with the residents of 7a, at how much more reduced opportunity it will create when you take that season away. (btw - there is absolutly no basis to take it away) and they will support it pretty darn quick.

I love how you avoid direct questions.

Whitetails in 7a. There are plenty of whitetails and I can tell you areas where your chances of harvest are really good. Unfortunate for you, your guide outfit is located where there are not a whole lot of them to begin with.

The province wide WT season you speak of is beneficial as a whole and an excellent move.

Mule deer indeed took a hit due to winter kill. Its not the first time, nor will it be the last time it occurs. The numbers will rebound and naturally as they have in the past. The population will always fluctuate.

[wetcoasthunter]

My apology, I should have been more clear. When I go hunt with friends and family, we too just go for a week or long weekend. The 200+ days refer to work/guiding.

Sorry about using these terms. When there is such tremendous pressure to open a very generous WT Deer season across the province and we do not have any to speak of in 7A, I don’t know what to say or how to describe it. The same goes for an overwhelming push to get and keep an antlerless mule deer season even though they were reduced by over 70% from winter kill. Would you call that wildlife management? Or MOE responding to pressure to create “opportunity”?

Logic and numbers:
I said earlier that I am not good with numbers but I can give it a stab. Things have changed:
The resident hunter numbers are way up. Over 100.000, last I heard. A success story for “recruitment”.
The other goal to “retain” will be tough if it isn’t any fun being out there. Wouldn’t you say? That is the story I get from many parts of the Omineca.

Also when old timers tell me that they used to see 15-20 moose a day when out hunting and today they can go for a week and see 2 or 0, I think that is a hint.
An old time outfitter used to shoot 100 bulls a year and his predecessor gets maybe 8 or so.
There were thousands of kilometres of new roads build in the last couple of years. Salvage logging created unprecedented landscapes in 7A and 6 South.
MOE has no money to do WL counts. Just ratios (cow/calf, and cow/bull ratios).

I can agree to any season (and I can only speak for Omineca) GOS or otherwise if I believe that it is not devastating to a population or a management objective.
Fact is that neither moose or deer are at or anywhere close to carrying capacity in 7A. So to answer your last question, I will be happy when we get and achieve management objectives in the Omineca. And these should come from people that live here. Not from Kelowna or Voctoria!!!!

I am for resident priority. Residents of the Omineca region.

I seeeeeee, so you have 200 days per year scouting the area you hunt, my bad.

So you are all for resident priority? As long as they live in that area? WTF, NIMBYism at its worst, the game is for all BCers not just the ones that can take game in their back yard.

On your comment about retaining hunters, I think its SUPER fun to get a tag every 7 years, the real fun is the time between the hunts don't you know:wink:

Every region is different. I am certainly not for a complete free for all province wide. But in MANY areas of the province (not all) there is certainly enough evidence to support some liberalization of seasons. Now if we can't even agree on this (or something like it) I'm afriad we will have to agree to disagree.

[jml11]

Sorry about using these terms. When there is such tremendous pressure to open a very generous WT Deer season across the province and we do not have any to speak of in 7A, I don’t know what to say or how to describe it.


Clearly you have never driven through the Robson Valley?? There are plenty of whitetails in the eastern, southern half of the region, I see more and more every year! I've documented whitetails from Vanderhoof all they to Valemount and from Mckenzie Junction to the Cottonwood River.



The same goes for an overwhelming push to get and keep an antlerless mule deer season even though they were reduced by over 70% from winter kill. Would you call that wildlife management? Or MOE responding to pressure to create “opportunity”?



When and where did this occur?? Certainly was not 7A. I know you are not a 'numbers' guy but a reference might be useful. I am not discounting that winter kills occur but to that magnitude?? Question for you...what type of population dymanics typically cause mass kills like the one you are stating? A hint, it typically occurs when animals exceed carrying capacity of an area! Would you not rather have seen these animals harvested instead?

[PGK]

You tell me what to do. Sounds like you are from 7A? Some meetings back the BCWF reps. Wanted a GOS on bull moose in 7A with a no quota for guides.
Sounds great right? Would solve my personal allocation issue but would kill moose in 7A to a point of devastation. Am I wrong?

Yeah, you're pretty much wrong.

[Devilbear]

Michael, you know so little about what is happening in this region, it's astounding. I think you should just keep your mouth shut, instead of digging yourself an even bigger hole.

You have a business to run. I say you run it, and let people with a clue regulate you, instead of getting yourself worked up and confused about what YOU think is proper wildlife management. You really don't have any idea. You're basing your prophecies on 'old timer' knowledge and emotional issues regarding killing 'baby' moose. Couple that with an innate hatred of resident hunters shooting ''your'' moose, and you get garbage posts like you've been making. You should be very glad your territory isn't in 7-24, or you and I might have some very serious malfunctions.

In my time in university, I was friends with quite a number of Phd.-holding Bios. and they OFTEN would interview "old timers" of the area to gain insight into wildlife and fisheries issues. An example of this, among world-renowned professional biologists, not mere kids with pretensions, would be Val Geist and his respect for "Skook" Davidson.

I know that Sam Kania of the Slocan Valley knew a HELL of a LOT about various furbearers and I found him fascinating to talk with, one afternoon when I was spending three solo months on "Russell Lookout" above "The Little Slocan" and he walked up to visit the L/O, with his wife.

I learned a LOT from REAL mountain men, growing up in the West Kootenays in the '50s and I have always respected long field experience very much. Scientists, as with all humans, can make errors....Thalidomide.....

A "sophomoric" approach to this issue is of no value to anyone and this seems to happen here, all too often.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Quote:

Can you answer me two things. In your opinion:

1 What is opportunety?
2 What is quality?


I can answer that using a small example from the Region 7a calf moose season. (the very same opportunity you are trying to take away from us resident hunters)

1. What is opportunity.

The calf moose season provides myself an opportunity to go and fill my freezer with excellent venision. I have only been drawn for moose 3x in Region 7a for the past 20 years. That calf moose season gives me the best opportunity at harvesting moose for my freezer.

You know as well as I do, that harvesting a spike / fork is a pretty rare event in general terms for the hunter and VERY DISCOURAGING.

2. Quality.

The quality hunting times I have had when hunting during the calf moose season with a reasonable amount of success with my father and friends over the years (because getting the LEH is tough as it is) is invaluable.

I took a new hunter (9yrs old) out for his first ever moose hunt. I took him out during the calf season because it offers a great hunting opportunity, and it provides a reasonable amount of success to fill the freezer.

THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY.

THIS IS THE QUALITY AND OPPORTUNITY YOU (GOABC) WANT TO TAKE AWAY BY LOBBYING TO REMOVE THE CALF MOOSE SEASON in Region 7A.

This is irreplacable.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/PA100014.jpg

I think you ment 10yr old. Right.

[BCrams]

I think you ment 10yr old. Right.

Nope.

He was along for the hunt. He had never been on a hunt ever (my 4 and 2 year olds have done more hunting than he has) and it was a big thrill for him to tag along and learn about hunting and even more thrilled to see 4 moose and the taking of the calf. So excited, he wanted pictures to show his friends and talks about wanting to go hunting again.

[d6dan]

I think the main issue here is the road Densities throughout the province. In 2005 forest roads increased by 70% of 1988 levels. In 1988 it was estimated that there were 387,000 kms of road. That would mean that in 2005 there were 658,000 kms of forest road. This in turn has severely increased our ability to harvest game.


Better blame this one on the Pine Beetle!!:wink:

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Nope.

He was along for the hunt. He had never been on a hunt ever (my 4 and 2 year olds have done more hunting than he has) and it was a big thrill for him to tag along and learn about hunting and even more thrilled to see 4 moose and the taking of the calf. So excited, he wanted pictures to show his friends and talks about wanting to go hunting again.

Sorry you made it sound like he was the triggerman which would not have been legal. Nothing like a kids first experiance.

[BCrams]

Michael, you know so little about what is happening in this region, it's astounding. I think you should just keep your mouth shut, instead of digging yourself an even bigger hole.



Is this Mooseman .......Michael Schneider????

The owner of United Guide Outfitters??? President of the North Central Guides Association???

http://www.going-hunting.com/information.htm

Now I've heard a few things about this person.

[Mooseman]

Michael, you know so little about what is happening in this region, it's astounding. I think you should just keep your mouth shut, instead of digging yourself an even bigger hole.

You have a business to run. I say you run it, and let people with a clue regulate you, instead of getting yourself worked up and confused about what YOU think is proper wildlife management. You really don't have any idea. You're basing your prophecies on 'old timer' knowledge and emotional issues regarding killing 'baby' moose. Couple that with an innate hatred of resident hunters shooting ''your'' moose, and you get garbage posts like you've been making. You should be very glad your territory isn't in 7-24, or you and I might have some very serious malfunctions.

How can I answer that?
Kris, even though you keep hitting below the belt, and are getting personal for no reason, I enjoy seeing you shoot your bow and wish you luck every time you go out.

I think this thread has reached my carrying capacity :mrgreen:
I wish you all so many moose, elk, deer, bison, caribou, bears, and sheep that no LEH would be needed :wink:

See you later,
Mooseman

[Mooseman]

Is this Mooseman .......Michael Schneider????

The owner of United Guide Outfitters??? President of the North Central Guides Association???

http://www.going-hunting.com/information.htm

Now I've heard a few things about this person.

I have never hidden my name or what I do. It is in many past posts where I offer to track wounded game for hunters and give my camps for free to resident hunters.

[PGK]

How can I answer that?
Kris, even though you keep hitting below the belt, and are getting personal for no reason, I enjoy seeing you shoot your bow and wish you luck every time you go out.

I think this thread has reached my carrying capacity :mrgreen:
I wish you all so many moose, elk, deer, bison, caribou, bears, and sheep that no LEH would be needed :wink:

See you later,
Mooseman

Oh sure, you'll back out when Greg figures out who you are! YOU make this crap personal when you lobby against the only reason I'm still a moose hunter - calf season.

Your opinions are wrong, your ideas are wrong, your theoretical management is wrong, and you are barking up the wrong tree.

This region has the best moose management on the planet, and just because you had the bad fortunate to get a territory in a unit where they are trying to reduce the moose population, you're going to try and take us with you!? No thanks buddy. It's a good thing we have the right people at the top in this region to keep you at bay, for God save us if the GOABC start to get a foothold in the management regime of this region!

[BCrams]

I have never hidden my name or what I do. It is in many past posts where I offer to track wounded game for hunters and give my camps for free to resident hunters.


You just need to let the guys who know what they're talking about regarding moose in 7a to continue the successful management trend and give up pushing for the spike fork / calf moose closures (among other things).

Also quit objecting to hunter recruitment and hunter opportunity where feasible.

At the end of the day, you GO's will still be well off better than any GO business in N.A. who operate successfully under far stricter quotas.

[Mooseman]

Oh sure, you'll back out when Greg figures out who you are! YOU make this crap personal when you lobby against the only reason I'm still a moose hunter - calf season.

Your opinions are wrong, your ideas are wrong, your theoretical management is wrong, and you are barking up the wrong tree.

This region has the best moose management on the planet, and just because you had the bad fortunate to get a territory in a unit where they are trying to reduce the moose population, you're going to try and take us with you!? No thanks buddy. It's a good thing we have the right people at the top in this region to keep you at bay, for God save us if the GOABC start to get a foothold in the management regime of this region!

Actually, I wrote my last post without having seen Greg’s post. And you don’t have to worry about the calf season. It will not get shut down.

[BCrams]

It will not get shut down.

You bet it won't. :mrgreen:

There are a lot of improvements which need to be made and revamping to be done.

The more the GOABC is on board with these changes for the betterment of resident hunter opportunity / recruitment, managing for conservation rather than solely for 'trophy' seasons and restrictions. The better off you guys will be and also the resident hunters.

You guys have really dug a hole and created a rift with resident hunters in BC. Some reasons, but not limited to include:

GOABC Economic Viability Report and statements made within (specifically Page 5 and Page 9)
Page 9: Recommendations: Quality Big Game Species: The management of big game must be conducted in a manner that grows trophy-class animals and restricts provisions such as "spike-fork" seasons for immature moose.

Page 5: The GOABC does not support the liberalization of hunting regulations in an attempt to recruit hunters at the expense of wildlife and a quality hunting experience.

Trying to eliminate spike fork moose seasons.
Trying to eliminate calf moose seasons.
Pushing for LEH on all sheep in British Columbia
Pushing for point restrictions
Objections to anything which puts new and more resident hunter afield
Mismanagement of Region 6 allocations for moose and Stone's sheep.
GO's filing greivance upon greivance (Region 5 example)
Opposition to the province wide WT deer strategy
Access restrictions (i.e., why should outfitters be able to have the key to take clients in 10-20km back when a resident has to start at the gate)
Transporter Licences (you guys got it but won't transport residents -- whats up with that)
Telling everyone you (GOABC) agree to the Allocation Policy, yet go behind back doors to delay implementation etc....
Selling the Quality Hunting Mantra ..... lying and scheming way to try and get more LEH, less residents out afield and more restrictions.And the list goes on.

[betteroffishing]

[quote=wetcoasthunter;548905

Nevertheless, hard to argue the fact we have 1/2 the hunters as back then, I don't care how many KMs of road there is, I don't think the hunters of today are any more successful than the hunters of 20yrs ago, and if we are then certainly not enough to make a great difference.[/quote]

great points wch, in fact i'd go it a step further and state my opinion is that hunters of today are less skilled and therefor far less likely to achieve success at as high a rate as our forfathers . not our fault really , restrictive seasons , complicated and wordy over-regulation , the cost of gasoline , the higher cost of living restricting the amount of time we get to put in out there ,...

[Fisher-Dude]

Same guy?

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence

E11466-1130-Aug-2001 SFR - 49 Fish with prohibited gear (barbed hook)Commit SCHNEIDER, MICHAEL Terrace, BC, CAN

[Mooseman]

Same guy?

Document Count Offence Date Statute Nature Accused City Of Offence

E11466-1130-Aug-2001 SFR - 49 Fish with prohibited gear (barbed hook)Commit SCHNEIDER, MICHAEL Terrace, BC, CAN

Yes that is me. Wow how did you do that. I am impressed.

[Avalanche123]

This thread reminds me of the very reason I quit posting on HBC…..So please, THIS IS MY OPINION. (It isn’t right nor is it wrong…)

I really can’t comment on First Nation hunting priorities other than to say, “best we all listen”. I’ve been down that road when I worked in the forest industry.

I’ve also been down the road where commercial interests compete against public interest and the best resolution is through constructive dialogue through a mediator. This worked really well. I also know that “internet forums” are the worse place for this sort of discussion.

I also know several GO’s and never ever have I felt threatened by their livelyhood nor have I ever felt they having an underlying agenda to “screw the Resident Hunter”. Sure they do have a business to operate, however at the end of the day, I feel they appreciate “we” all share the same resource. And they are also Residents. I certainly don’t feel like any of my hunting privileges (and they are privileges) are threatened by GOABC for that matter. When I read the latest message posted by GOABC, I take it at face value. Sorry I don’t see a hidden agenda.

We have far more in common than we think. The GO’s who have been trying to answer the numerous questions in the hope of trying to shed light on this sensitive issue need to be acknowledged for their efforts. Instead they have opened themselves to some fairly malicious statements and taken personal attacks. They kept it civil. Can you blame them if they leave?

Anyway I sure hope this can be resolved in a more respectful and meaningful manner because at the end of the day, we have way more in common with each other than we realize. Finally, to reiterate, this is my opinion.

[BCrams]

[QUOTE]I also know several GO’s and never ever have I felt threatened by their livelyhood nor have I ever felt they having an underlying agenda to “screw the Resident Hunter”. Sure they do have a business to operate, however at the end of the day, I feel they appreciate “we” all share the same resource. And they are also Residents. I certainly don’t feel like any of my hunting privileges (and they are privileges) are threatened by GOABC for that matter. When I read the latest message posted by GOABC, I take it at face value. Sorry I don’t see a hidden agenda.

Might want to wake up and put your ear to the ground so to speak.


The GO’s who have been trying to answer the numerous questions in the hope of trying to shed light on this sensitive issue need to be acknowledged for their efforts.

Scneider (mooseman) represents all of Region 7a, Guide Outfitters and if you read the posts .... he is avoiding some very important and very simple questions. Some of which were highlighted already because he did not want to acknowledge the stance of the GOABC and affiliations are taking.


You should know him...you traditional bow guys are pretty tight :wink:

[yukon john]

Last time I saw mooseman he drove several hours to come help me track a wounded bear with his tracking dog, he did it out of the kindness of his heart and asked for nothing in return I found him to be a stand up guy and if you had a wounded animal I know he would do the same for any of you. You may disagree with him but he isnt the monster you make him out to be YJ

[Devilbear]

Two days ago, Mooseman made a comment here that I disagreed with and I PMed him and politely told him so. I always include my name and address and phone number on PMs of this type as I consider it basic courtesy and an indication one is sincere and not merely a prick who wants to harass others while remaining "safe" behind a keyboard...as some pizzants do........

Anyway, yesterday morning, he called and we had a pleasant chat and, while I strongly disagree with SOME of his comments and political positions, I DO agree with others and, even as an ornery old curmudgeon and ultra-conservationist-nationalist-nativist Canuck, I respect him for coming here, stating what he thinks and remaining polite while doing so. He is a nice guy and IS a "resident" himself and a Canadian citizen with rights equal to the rest of us.....he has NEAT dogs, too, a major plus to me!

So, it may well be that it can BE possible to have what we residents want in BC AND better access for other Canadians and yet have a viable GO industry. I USED to be IN FAVOUR of this until about 5-6 years ago and, IMO, the GOs need to LISTEN to guys like BCRAMS, 6616, GG, FD and even grumpy old geezers like me....to our mutual benefit.

Just an aside here, I can remember when Black Bears were routinely shot and left as "vermin" and NOW,people will come from the US and Europe and PAY $4000.00 to shoot one?????? Given the huge number of BBs in BC, too many, really, there seems to be a legitimate opportunity here for a business. The "antis" don't like this, but, most of them are phoney little self-seeking wimps who won't volunteer to fight forest fires and like to pose as "mountain men" while collecting government cheques, the draftdodger type and their spawn.

[GoatGuy]

OK, I get that.
Here is what I am saying, let that calf (100 lbs meat) grow up to be a grown moose (400 lbs meat) and then hunt for it with our kids.

I am not after your calf. I am trying to convert it in to a bull for you with 4 times the meat on it.


Let me break this down really simple for you:

Because chances are that 100 lbs of calf will have died before it turns into a bull with 4 times the meat on it.

It's going to be even tougher to turn it into a bull if it doesn't have the balls to do it.

Is it really so complex that you don't understand what compensatory mortality means?

Is this a joke?

[GoatGuy]

Jessie, I do not want to get in to a statistics debate with you. My knowledge is not in numbers as I spend 200 days a year in the bush hunting and fishing. You and the once around you are not representing the views of most resident hunters. At least not the hunters I talk to when out there. You use scare tactics to get others to buy in to your reports and make them believe that the GOABC and all guides are some alien invasion that needs to be terminated.
Such extremist’s views are hard to understand.
I am a resident hunter as well.
My two boys are resident hunters.
My guides are all resident hunters.
My friends are resident hunters.
I work with resident hunters and their representatives to make 7A a better place for hunters. (Spin it how you want). Fact is that you guys are demanding “opportunity” where there is no game population to do it with. We are saying let’s get the game populations out there first before we open seasons to shoot the shit out of them.
The day will come when you and the once around you will be exposed for what you really did. That day is coming fast. While you spend these funds to bash outfitters, the FN’s are shutting down hundreds of km’s of roads to white hunters.

Can you answer me two things. In your opinion:
1 What is opportunety?
2 What is quality?

None of your opinions are correct. I've have plenty of friends who are and were outfitters and even more who are guides. I was just hunting with one of them last week. None of them are trying to eliminate spike/fork seasons, calf seasons or any other seasons unless it has something to do with conservation. They could care less if somebody wants to shoot a spike buck or a 200"er. Firstly they ask wildlife managers and researchers how and why things work - they want to u n d e r s t a n d. Secondly they're resident hunters first, guides and outfitters second. I realize you run a small business and you probably count on it as a sole or at least primary source of income so I can see how 'important' this might be to you. Having said that if you want to take hunting opportunities away from resident hunters based on opinions or what you think other people should be hunting I cannot in good conscience support that.


Any kind of harvest needs to be sustainable. I have no idea where 'demanding opportunity' is coming from. As you've stated you have no idea about numbers, modeling or wildlife counts, never mind any kind of upper level or fundamental statistics for that matter. There are several biologists and wl managers who have been trying to show you how it works but you don't believe them. You even have some who are paid and I know they get frustrated with ideas like predator control for goats - come on! My suggestion would be to try to understand how it works. Inform yourself first then make a decision. Ask Mr.Woods, he's a sharp guy and he won't BS you.

I could care less how many days you spend hunting per year. 200 days/year in the bush means nothing if you're a poor hunter. Sorry to say but looking at the pictures on your website speaks volumes - you're shooting young bulls. Besides all that I've never been into 'anecdotal opinions', I'm sorry.


I have no idea what opportunety is - never heard of it.

Quality would be specific to the individual. For me or anyone else to define that on a personal level for all resident hunters would be wrong. I'd ask them first, and look at the data instead of basing my opinions on opinion or asking the guys I sit around the campfire with.



Clearly you aren't into answering questions because you don't know the answers and that's fine. When you talk about 'the people I know and talk to' you're dealing with people who are like-minded. You base your opinion not on fact, numbers or science but on what you feel and what you want to hear or see. Realize that.

I don't promote 'what I want to hunt' or what everyone else's hunting experience should be because that's what I want. I don't think people should be regulated to my 'beliefs' or what I want to hunt. I don't operate in that world. I don't push my opinions on what size of buck/bull/ram/billy boar or whatever other people should shoot. I choose which animals I want to hunt and harvest and which ones I don't.

I let conservation sort out what the hunting regulations need to be to ensure the harvest is sustainable.

The rest is just a bunch of selfish BS. The resource is there to be shared and experienced by as many people as possible.

What is the sense in purposely regulating people so they can't go hunting?
Why would you do that?


It's fine to want whatever you want. Just recognize that might not be what other hunters want and that you don't get to be the person(s) who decides what others shoot and when. Try some discipline and patience - hold out for something bigger if you want something bigger.

After all is said and done I figured it would end up this way. No answers, no numbers, just a bunch of jibberish.

I don't have the patience or time for this.

[bayou]

None of your opinions are correct. I've have plenty of friends who are and were outfitters and even more who are guides. I was just hunting with one of them last week. None of them are trying to eliminate spike/fork seasons, calf seasons or any other seasons unless it has something to do with conservation. They could care less if somebody wants to shoot a spike buck or a 200"er. Firstly they ask wildlife managers and researchers how and why things work - they want to u n d e r s t a n d. Secondly they're resident hunters first, guides and outfitters second. I realize you run a small business and you probably count on it as a sole or at least primary source of income so I can see how 'important' this might be to you. Having said that if you want to take hunting opportunities away from resident hunters based on opinions or what you think other people should be hunting I cannot in good conscience support that.


Any kind of harvest needs to be sustainable. I have no idea where 'demanding opportunity' is coming from. As you've stated you have no idea about numbers, modeling or wildlife counts, never mind any kind of upper level or fundamental statistics for that matter. There are several biologists and wl managers who have been trying to show you how it works but you don't believe them. You even have some who are paid and I know they get frustrated with ideas like predator control for goats - come on! My suggestion would be to try to understand how it works. Inform yourself first then make a decision. Ask Mr.Woods, he's a sharp guy and he won't BS you.

I could care less how many days you spend hunting per year. 200 days/year in the bush means nothing if you're a poor hunter. Sorry to say but looking at the pictures on your website speaks volumes - you're shooting young bulls. Besides all that I've never been into 'anecdotal opinions', I'm sorry.


I have no idea what opportunety is - never heard of it.

Quality would be specific to the individual. For me or anyone else to define that on a personal level for all resident hunters would be wrong. I'd ask them first, and look at the data instead of basing my opinions on opinion or asking the guys I sit around the campfire with.



Clearly you aren't into answering questions because you don't know the answers and that's fine. When you talk about 'the people I know and talk to' you're dealing with people who are like-minded. You base your opinion not on fact, numbers or science but on what you feel and what you want to hear or see. Realize that.

I don't promote 'what I want to hunt' or what everyone else's hunting experience should be because that's what I want. I don't think people should be regulated to my 'beliefs' or what I want to hunt. I don't operate in that world. I don't push my opinions on what size of buck/bull/ram/billy boar or whatever other people should shoot. I choose which animals I want to hunt and harvest and which ones I don't.

I let conservation sort out what the hunting regulations need to be to ensure the harvest is sustainable.

The rest is just a bunch of selfish BS. The resource is there to be shared and experienced by as many people as possible.

What is the sense in purposely regulating people so they can't go hunting?
Why would you do that?


It's fine to want whatever you want. Just recognize that might not be what other hunters want and that you don't get to be the person(s) who decides what others shoot and when. Try some discipline and patience - hold out for something bigger if you want something bigger.

After all is said and done I figured it would end up this way. No answers, no numbers, just a bunch of jibberish.

I don't have the patience or time for this.
Been staying out of this thread but there sure seems to be a bunch of hypocritical BS in this post.

[Devilbear]

OK, why not use YOUR bush experience and guiding knowledge to point out SPECIFICALLY what the ...BS... IS? GG is human, none of us is infallible and I, for one, REALLY want to LEARN here, not merely snipe at each other like a bunch of pimply-faced teenyboppers trying to play "whose is biggest".....

So, c'mon, where is he wrong, where is Michael right and what do YOU think is best for the whole situation?

[dutchie]

Is this thread for real???

You have the sheep sheriff, that has a internet personality that is worst then Jim Shockey's.

Then you are beating up on other GO's that are expressing thier opinions, and last time I checked an opinion is what you think... therefore can not be wrong. There are many things I agree with and I do not agree with, but that is life get over it.

and how in the hell does a members infraction for a barbed hook relate to GOABC sugarcoating -the thread topic??

If there are any trolls around the site they will be picking this up and in essence you are feeding them more BS then they need.

Take a lesson from DevilBear and PM someone insted of trying to publicly slam someone.

In the interest of all hunters and the sport I think that this thread should be locked up. Everything has been said that needs to be said and now it is just people trying t publicly slam others.

Dutchie

[bridger]

this issue is going around in circles and getting no where. The BCWF has repeatedly gone on record stating that we support a viable guiding industry . I think the harvest share we agreed to under the new allocation policy reflects that principle. So why isn't the goabc satisfied? why push residents towards more leh hunts that are not warranted. why tell us that we should be hunting quality animals? let us decide what we want to do with our share of the harvest. As far as the push from the goabc towards quality hunting my experience tells me this is a ploy to further reduce resident opportunites. take a look at guide outfitter websites and the grandslam magazine lots of pictures there of smaller trophies. This tells me that most non residents just want to come to bc to hunt and if they get a big head great if not and they have a great time that is ok as well. Same as resident hunters and that is the way it should be. There is lots of room both for groups to hunt in bc. I will state again that the bcwf has better things to do than continually fight a rear guard action. outfitters have a large share of the harvest. Why not be satisfied and abandon the campaign against the average resident hunter.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

[willy442]

Is this thread for real???

You have the sheep sheriff, that has a internet personality that is worst then Jim Shockey's.

Then you are beating up on other GO's that are expressing thier opinions, and last time I checked an opinion is what you think... therefore can not be wrong. There are many things I agree with and I do not agree with, but that is life get over it.

and how in the hell does a members infraction for a barbed hook relate to GOABC sugarcoating -the thread topic??

If there are any trolls around the site they will be picking this up and in essence you are feeding them more BS then they need.

Take a lesson from DevilBear and PM someone insted of trying to publicly slam someone.

In the interest of all hunters and the sport I think that this thread should be locked up. Everything has been said that needs to be said and now it is just people trying t publicly slam others.

Dutchie

Hey: This thread was dead and gone. You rekindled it for what purpose may I ask?

[tackdriver]

Well, not to repeat myself, BUT, if "non-resident alien" hunting here were banned, then, this problem would disappear..............


i agree fully sorry but thats how i feel why should some arrogant american be able to basicly BUY the game of his choice and my son a RESIDENT of CANADA and B.C. has to wait for a draw. :twisted:

[frenchbar]

i agree fully sorry but thats how i feel why should some arrogant american be able to basicly BUY the game of his choice and my son a RESIDENT of CANADA and B.C. has to wait for a draw. :twisted:Pretty sad when goabc doesnt give a ratz ass about about our sons and daughters and their hunting futures and just want more CASH FOR THEMSELFS!!!greed and money is their bottom line :twisted:

[CanuckShooter]

this issue is going around in circles and getting no where. The BCWF has repeatedly gone on record stating that we support a viable guiding industry . I think the harvest share we agreed to under the new allocation policy reflects that principle. So why isn't the goabc satisfied? why push residents towards more leh hunts that are not warranted. why tell us that we should be hunting quality animals? let us decide what we want to do with our share of the harvest. As far as the push from the goabc towards quality hunting my experience tells me this is a ploy to further reduce resident opportunites. take a look at guide outfitter websites and the grandslam magazine lots of pictures there of smaller trophies. This tells me that most non residents just want to come to bc to hunt and if they get a big head great if not and they have a great time that is ok as well. Same as resident hunters and that is the way it should be. There is lots of room both for groups to hunt in bc. I will state again that the bcwf has better things to do than continually fight a rear guard action. outfitters have a large share of the harvest. Why not be satisfied and abandon the campaign against the average resident hunter.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

What seems strange is that GOABC has any say in allocations in the first place?? Do BC forest companies sit down with govt and divvy up the bush?? Do BC commercial fishermen sit down with govt and divvy up the fish openings??

First and foremost they are IN BUSINESS, and the primary purpose of being in business is to make a profit. Clearly they are in a conflict of interest [pecuniary] by even sitting down at wildlife allocation meetings??

I had a chat with the Guide that lives down the road....he wasn't shy about saying he is in support of having all hunting on LEH....BS to that!!!

I say give them a fixed % of the annual allowable harvest and that's it....period.

[325 wsm]

Frenchbar they do care about their sons and daughters and that is why they want to see a strong future for guiding and outfitting. Do you care about THEIR son's and daughters...seems not.
As far as ALL THE CASH...I've never met a rich outfitter in my life. Just because some of them are as sholes doe'snt mean they don't work for a living or earn their money. Maybe they should all go on welfare, that would help the economy.

[Fisher-Dude]

Occupation: hunting guide
Yeah, that explains it. :roll:

If the GOABC believed what you are saying 325, they would NOT have issued a paper to Victoria calling for an end to all seasons designed to recruit youth and new hunters.

[325 wsm]

Canuck Shooter ....I,m with ya ...set reasonable quota's for each side and stop the fighting. If an area needs to go LEH for the sake of the animals the GO must also take their % of the hit also.
To easy for the politicians and lawyers though as it would cut to deeply into their time wasting pocket books.

[325 wsm]

Fisher Dude I don't support the GOABC, I know very little about them, what I have heard so far I DO NOT LIKE and I will always feel the resident line starts infront of the non res line. Having said that I also enjoy guiding and will have to send a poke from that side as often as not.

[bridger]

Frenchbar they do care about their sons and daughters and that is why they want to see a strong future for guiding and outfitting. Do you care about THEIR son's and daughters...seems not.
As far as ALL THE CASH...I've never met a rich outfitter in my life. Just because some of them are as sholes doe'snt mean they don't work for a living or earn their money. Maybe they should all go on welfare, that would help the economy.

never met a rich outfitter? surely you jest? i have no problem with outfitters making money from the areas that is why people go into business. If any outfitter cannot be viable with the guaranteed harvest share and other benefits they have been given in bc then they are in the wrong business simple as that. the question in my mind is not the viability of the guiding industry it is how much to they want and where is the demand for more and more going to end.

[frenchbar]

Frenchbar they do care about their sons and daughters and that is why they want to see a strong future for guiding and outfitting. Do you care about THEIR son's and daughters...seems not.
As far as ALL THE CASH...I've never met a rich outfitter in my life. Just because some of them are as sholes doe'snt mean they don't work for a living or earn their money. Maybe they should all go on welfare, that would help the economy. so why cant the goabc stay put with what they have and not take more of our kids hunting opportunitys away..they make enough to survive just like the rest of us.To me i realy could give a shit if i ever harvest another animal in my lifetime ..but will always fight for our future hunting opportunitys for all our children...

[Devilbear]

325wsm, It seems to me, that we in BC have TRIED to do just that and, in fact, have given the GOs, INCLUDING the FOREIGN OWNED ones who cater to wealthy foreign "trophy" collectors and strongly discriminate against we residents, MORE available "quota" than ANYWHERE else in North America.

YET, they STILL break their agreement with us and DEMAND more and more and more and do not care about we residents right to OUR repeat OUR game. So, what would YOU consider a ...reasonable quota... for the GOs here in BC?

The ...fighting... has just started, THEY started it and, by God, WE will finish it.

[325 wsm]

Of course there's some profit in it Bridger, enough for an outfitter to make a healthy living but not enough to get rich off of unless they run multiple areas. And yes I was wrong I have met 1 rich outfitter but his family invented cardboard and the 3 areas he owned in the Yukon were just his hobby.
Devilbear and Frenchbar, from what little I know of GOABC, I do not like what they stand for, and I hope you can kick their ass for what they are doing but I still stand by the rights of outfitters and guides to do their thing in a way that allows sustainable harvest for first the resident and 2nd the outfitter.
So I agree GOABC is evil but feel B.C. has a place for GO's

[Devilbear]

Fair enough and I think that most here agree, I will support a GO-based hunting quota when and if they clean up their act and feel that this CAN happen. I hope the situation is resolved and we can all benefit as I have no issues with decent guides or GOs and have never had or expect to.

I am done here as I have posted everything I have to say on GOs as well as the inter-related aboriginal situation and see little point in repetitive posts by me or anyone.

Happy New Year to all, "Peace on Earth".

[bridger]

Of course there's some profit in it Bridger, enough for an outfitter to make a healthy living but not enough to get rich off of unless they run multiple areas. And yes I was wrong I have met 1 rich outfitter but his family invented cardboard and the 3 areas he owned in the Yukon were just his hobby.
Devilbear and Frenchbar, from what little I know of GOABC, I do not like what they stand for, and I hope you can kick their ass for what they are doing but I still stand by the rights of outfitters and guides to do their thing in a way that allows sustainable harvest for first the resident and 2nd the outfitter.
So I agree GOABC is evil but feel B.C. has a place for GO's

I am not going to beat a dead horse here and again will state i have no problem with outfitters being viable, but you are mistaken if you don't think that there are some wealthy outfitters, perhaps not moose or elk guides but have a look at the big sheep areas. they generate a pile of cash flow annually and they sell for miillions of dollars which again is ok

[Gunner]

There will always be a place in BC for G/Os,and I have no problem with that.However Resident hunters come first and I'd like the G/Os to recognize THAT!That isn't going to happen,because every single animal that they can add to their share of the Allocation means more opportunity to put money in their pockets.Someone said that the G/Os care about the future of hunting for their kids,I'm sure they do;do you think they care about the future of hunting for YOUR kids! Gunner

[Fisher-Dude]

Word I got was that several hunts were cancelled or going unbooked the past couple of years with the US economy in the shitter. Why do they need more if they can't book what they have now?

[willy442]

Word I got was that several hunts were cancelled or going unbooked the past couple of years with the US economy in the shitter. Why do they need more if they can't book what they have now?

That may be true in the lower dollar hunts. Don't worry the big outfits are still booking up.

[Fisher-Dude]

That may be true in the lower dollar hunts. Don't worry the big outfits are still booking up.

Sheep hunts at Scoop. As big as they get.

[blacklab]

Pretty sad when goabc doesnt give a ratz ass about about our sons and daughters and their hunting futures and just want more CASH FOR THEMSELFS!!!greed and money is their bottom line :twisted:
They care about our sons and daughters hunting futures, they just want them to pay a guide outfitter for a "quality hunt".

[BCRiverBoater]

Wow...Am i ever glad I was not looking at HBC for the last few months. I think I need a drink now.

[1 shot 1 kill]

why should a guide charging 10,000 to hunt our trophies get to have all of the rights to take alien hunters out? why shouldnt i/ we be able to pass this heritage onto our children as it was passed to us? at the rate things are going my children wont be allowed to hunt!! it is about the experience..the memories..they time in the field together. i have had 2 moose draws in 18 yrs of trying..equility my arse! money talks!!