View Full Version : Provincial Moose Season
BCrams
10-13-2009, 11:09 AM
Do you think the government should model other Regions (i.e., 3, 4, 5, 6) after the successful moose management strategy of 7a in order to harmonize the seasons better and consequently, more opportunity?
If anyone gets the chance read Ecodomains "Towards an Improved Moose Management Strategy for BC". If anyone wants a copy PM me.
BCrams
10-13-2009, 12:04 PM
Over 50 views and no votes.
Folks - its anonymous so no one will know which one you voted for.
frenchbar
10-13-2009, 12:11 PM
Most definatly YES. More gos on any bulls for periods of time would be nice for reg 3 4 5 and 6.
Fisher-Dude
10-13-2009, 12:19 PM
Absolutely. 7A produces 52% of the provincial moose harvest. With productivity like that, it's obviously the strategy that should be followed throughout the entire province.
MB_Boy
10-13-2009, 12:27 PM
Only if the GO's get a larger alottment of trophy bulls for their clients in those regions. :mrgreen:
Rams.....in all honesty any thread talking about this before has gotten SO sidetracked and winds up at 80++++ posts before I can get the low down; could you in a couple sentences outline what the "strategy" entailed up there? I know my Dad has talked my ear off about it especially when he was at the Moose Conference up there a year and half ago......but I kind of have tuned out the moose talk after listening to a Moose Biologist of a Dad for 35+ years. :roll:
Ambush
10-13-2009, 12:29 PM
Absolutely. 7A produces 52% of the provincial moose harvest. With productivity like that, it's obviously the strategy that should be followed throughout the entire province.
We're just better hunters!:razz: We drive with the windows down and one in the spout.:eek:
BCrams
10-13-2009, 12:34 PM
Only if the GO's get a larger alottment of trophy bulls for their clients in those regions. :mrgreen:
Rams.....in all honesty any thread talking about this before has gotten SO sidetracked and winds up at 80++++ posts before I can get the low down; could you in a couple sentences outline what the "strategy" entailed up there? I know my Dad has talked my ear off about it especially when he was at the Moose Conference up there a year and half ago......but I kind of have tuned out the moose talk after listening to a Moose Biologist of a Dad for 35+ years. :roll:
Can relate!!
Send 6616 a request for this:
If anyone gets the chance read Ecodomains "Towards an Improved Moose Management Strategy for BC".
Kirby
10-13-2009, 12:41 PM
I would say no.
Kirby
I also would say no, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the area around prince george have the highest population of moose? I don't think the other regions would be able to handle the pressure.
Thaaaat's a pretty big brush. I'm a fan, but I don't subscribe to the 'one regime fits all' scenario. In moderation, yes. I know SFA about region three and four moose pops, but I would suggest that a one or two month long spike fork season could be implemented in region5, and similar in region6.
Calf seasons are always difficult. I region5, no, not at this time. The pressure change from region7 to region5 would be intense. So many more of the vancouver road warriors would hunt region5 areas like Horsefly, Likely, etc and the calf crop could really take a pounding, whereas region7 calf crop may end up underhunted (not that this would matter).
Further, a calf season in region5 would confound efforts by region7 MoE to increase hunter participation and moose harvest in regions 7-16 and 7-23.
Region6 could probably handle a short calf season similar to region7.
What region6 really needs is a GOS on grizzlies in 6-30 within 1km of the Kispiox River during the month of September so that when I go up for steelhead in October, the fckers don't try to eat me as many times as they did this weekend!!!!!! :eek:
Whats with the question, man. You know as well as the rest of us the issue isn't as simple as 'go the 7a way or hit the hiway'
Absolutely. 7A produces 52% of the provincial moose harvest. With productivity like that, it's obviously the strategy that should be followed throughout the entire province.
Buddy, I know you are up on the stats thing..... but am I reading this right????
How can the moose harvest in 7a produce more than all other regions combined??? 7b and 6 have GOS on bulls???
Is anyone else scratching their head over this stat???? :confused:
BTW I voted yes, but only if sustainable of course!
GoatGuy
10-13-2009, 07:30 PM
Buddy, I know you are up on the stats thing..... but am I reading this right????
How can the moose harvest in 7a produce more than all other regions combined??? 7b and 6 have GOS on bulls???
Is anyone else scratching their head over this stat???? :confused:
BTW I voted yes, but only if sustainable of course!
Lots of moose in 7A. Probably makes up about 22% of the Provincial population. Remember in Region 6 and 7B most of the country is relatively inaccessible unless you've got horses, a plane or a jetboat and even that doesn't get you into all the moose country.
Also the yield (harvest) increases significantly under the SHS. That's the beauty of it. I guess somebody needs to put that down in writing.
Here's the readers digest sentence from Ray's paper:
"Based on average past performance, we estimate that restoring moose
harvests to pre-1990 levels by developing a selective harvest strategy within Regions 4, 5, 6, & 8 has the potential of increasing the harvest by a minimum of 2800 moose annually, providing opportunities for additional 11,000 moose hunters and 73,000 hunter days."
GoatGuy
10-13-2009, 07:39 PM
Thaaaat's a pretty big brush. I'm a fan, but I don't subscribe to the 'one regime fits all' scenario. In moderation, yes. I know SFA about region three and four moose pops, but I would suggest that a one or two month long spike fork season could be implemented in region5, and similar in region6.
Calf seasons are always difficult. I region5, no, not at this time. The pressure change from region7 to region5 would be intense. So many more of the vancouver road warriors would hunt region5 areas like Horsefly, Likely, etc and the calf crop could really take a pounding, whereas region7 calf crop may end up underhunted (not that this would matter).
You can control season duration and timing to control harvest. Hundreds of solutions to a minor problem. There are also 4 other regions that have moose. Dispersing the harvest isn't tough.
Further, a calf season in region5 would confound efforts by region7 MoE to increase hunter participation and moose harvest in regions 7-16 and 7-23.
You're joking, right? You think that a calf season in region 5 is going to 'confound' the attempts to knock the moose population back. A 25 day calf season is going to do that for you? Come on, you should know, it's about shooting cows and lots of them.
Jagermeister
10-13-2009, 07:42 PM
The model has to be brought into effect soon. There is too much pressure on the areas that have liberal openings, like the Dease Lake area, to the point that the FN's are starting to stir in that neck of the woods. Won't be long before all moose hunting be will confined to a very small portion of the province unless of course, you're being guided.
billjc33
10-13-2009, 07:42 PM
NO! 7a's regs work because we have the highest population of moose in the province(maybe) we also are limited to limited entry for big bulls i prefer region 7b's regs were you can shoot immature and big bulls leaving alot of mature bulls to reproduce. personally I live in prince george and have shot many moose here but I see way more moose in 7b. Aswell, I think that the calf season in 7a should be limited to junior hunters under 18 and even that out with giving a few more limited entries so maybe the people that live in prince george might get one once in a while.
You can control season duration and timing to control harvest. Hundreds of solutions to a minor problem. There are also 4 other regions that have moose. Dispersing the harvest isn't tough.
You're joking, right? You think that a calf season in region 5 is going to 'confound' the attempts to knock the moose population back. A 25 day calf season is going to do that for you? Come on, you should know, it's about shooting cows and lots of them.
I know. But who in their right mind is going to drive from vancouver to 7-16 when they can turn off at 150mile and go to Horsefly/Likely/Quesnel Lake/Cariboo River
As I understand it, most of the hunters in these two units are out of region hunters. The PG boys I know don't hunt out there much (save for a few exceptions, Schmaus for one) because the hunter density is insane. What I'm essentially guessing is all those guys putting in for cow LEH in 16 and 23 won't, and will put in for big bull 5-02 or 5-15 oct season and hunt calves as incidentals. Fuel cost is a big factor in hunter presure. Give them options closer to home, and they will utilize them.
I'm just guessing man.
GoatGuy
10-13-2009, 08:17 PM
I know. But who in their right mind is going to drive from vancouver to 7-16 when they can turn off at 150mile and go to Horsefly/Likely/Quesnel Lake/Cariboo River
As I understand it, most of the hunters in these two units are out of region hunters. The PG boys I know don't hunt out there much (save for a few exceptions, Schmaus for one) because the hunter density is insane. What I'm essentially guessing is all those guys putting in for cow LEH in 16 and 23 won't, and will put in for big bull 5-02 or 5-15 oct season and hunt calves as incidentals. Fuel cost is a big factor in hunter presure. Give them options closer to home, and they will utilize them.
I'm just guessing man.
If the calf season up there was 2 months long then you'd probably get more pressure.
You can also put the calf season outside of the LEH season in Region 5.
There are several ways to discourage hunters and other ways to encourage them. Like I said, hundreds of solutions. If they want to reduce the moose population in 23 and 16 shoot cows. The guys know that as their efforts to reduce the population in there hadn't been working as well as they had hoped last time I spoke to them.
The hunter density isn't really that insane, more that the road density isn't that 'insane'. Thus the hunter complaints and then the chopped up MUs to force guys to get their butts out of the truck. Also help harvest some moose. :roll:
You'll also find the hunter density decreases with a longer season. Generally speaking shorter seasons don't reduce the harvest unless they're removed from the 'rut' or before migration (n/a for calves) - they only crowd more hunters into the same time frame with little to no change in harvest.
After all this is said we should be dealing with science but we don't. There's numbers and solutions for all this but nobody seems too intent on looking into them.
Where's the wiji board?
Ouji board :lol: Didn't they teach you anything at that craptastic school you went to?
We're on the same wavelength.
GoatGuy
10-13-2009, 08:26 PM
Ouji board :lol: Didn't they teach you anything at that craptastic school you went to?
We're on the same wavelength.
I missed that part in school.:idea:
The light is on.
Fisher-Dude
10-13-2009, 08:33 PM
I also would say no, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the area around prince george have the highest population of moose? I don't think the other regions would be able to handle the pressure.
The reason it has the highest population of moose is because of this game management strategy. Go figure. :p
The reason it has the highest population of moose is because of this game management strategy. Go figure. :p
We have the highest population of moose because we have the highest density of cutblocks anywhere in the effing world :roll: It's a good bandwagon to be on, but let's give some credit to the horses, and not all of it to the driver.
Fisher-Dude
10-13-2009, 08:45 PM
We have the highest population of moose because we have the highest density of cutblocks anywhere in the effing world :roll: It's a good bandwagon to be on, but let's give some credit to the horses, and not all of it to the driver.
Really? Please provide the forest cover stats for region 7A compared to regions 3, 5, and 8 to verify your assertion. Otherwise, I'll go with Ray Demarchi's scientific study of moose management strategies.
plumbob
10-13-2009, 08:48 PM
I would have to say YES
Really? Please provide the forest cover stats for region 7A compared to regions 3, 5, and 8 to verify your assertion. Otherwise, I'll go with Ray Demarchi's scientific study of moose management strategies.
I hate stats :evil:
Especially your kind, with numbers and such. 7a has more moose habitat than regions 3, 5 and 8...are you really going to question that? Because you know I'm just going to ignore and continue on with my night if you do. Good day :tongue:
NO !
Here in six (or at least my corner of it) tine restrictions would be too limiting. I prefer the one week any bull season.
EVERYONE OR NO ONE !
Fisher-Dude
10-13-2009, 08:58 PM
Kris, have you even bothered to read Ray's study?
T300WSM
10-13-2009, 09:00 PM
I have to say no to open season on bull moose. In the past there has been a open season in some regions for far to long. With the LEH in many MUs, I have seen a very good come back of moose numbers. As far as the open season even for a few days or a week would destroy all the effort that has been put in to place to enhance the numbers. I know that the MUs that still have a open season have far to much pressure and I think soon these areas will be LEH only also. I have seen the decline of moose numbers and the improvment in number where LEH has been in place for many years, I would hate to see the open slaughter of moose again in many MUs.
Fisher-Dude
10-13-2009, 09:06 PM
I have to say no to open season on bull moose. In the past there has been a open season in some regions for far to long. With the LEH in many MUs, I have seen a very good come back of moose numbers. As far as the open season even for a few days or a week would destroy all the effort that has been put in to place to enhance the numbers. I know that the MUs that still have a open season have far to much pressure and I think soon these areas will be LEH only also. I have seen the decline of moose numbers and the improvment in number where LEH has been in place for many years, I would hate to see the open slaughter of moose again in many MUs.
We hunted moose for 30 - 40 years with GOS and no slaughter. What good is stockpiling game? Who wants to sit at home and wait 10 years for a moose draw when numbers can support a GOS?
I have to say no to open season on bull moose. In the past there has been a open season in some regions for far to long. With the LEH in many MUs, I have seen a very good come back of moose numbers. As far as the open season even for a few days or a week would destroy all the effort that has been put in to place to enhance the numbers. I know that the MUs that still have a open season have far to much pressure and I think soon these areas will be LEH only also. I have seen the decline of moose numbers and the improvment in number where LEH has been in place for many years, I would hate to see the open slaughter of moose again in many MUs.
We have had a one week open season here since 93 I see more moose every year. If our harvest # are down it isn't Moose # It is guys not leaving their trucks or quads.
Personally I hope they don't change the way they hunt.
I hope the rules don't change here even more.
I can't even imagine the frustration I would have letting a bull walk cause he didn't meet some dumb DONKEY tine restriction.
EVERYONE OR NO ONE!
T300WSM
10-13-2009, 09:23 PM
please tell me what areas you think can suport a GOS. There is no "stockpiling game" the game has been over hunted and is starting to get back to the numbers that has been seen in the past. Let the numbers build up more and open up more LEHs. I don't want to sit and wait at home for a draw, but we all can't get a draw. In the mean time I hunt the immy and put in for a draw.
MuleyMadness
10-13-2009, 09:32 PM
I voted no, at least in regards to region 3 where I'm located. It's not that moose are rare as they certainly aren't, but it's not like you run into them every day going to the store for milk. And that goes for big bulls, cows, calves, etc...I am in favor of much more relaxed LEH odds, particularly for October in region 3, and as such it allows the MOH to tightly control the harvest. As for region 5 I personally believe it's a travesty that there is no GOS, even a short one. Clearly moose are plentiful in many parts of region 5 and the strategy is very transparently in favor of high GO quotas and to hell with the resident hunter. IMHO, and I am no wildlife biologist, but region 5 could easily support a season like what is seen in 7a, or at least very liberal LEH...maybe a bit shorter but same general idea.
Fisher-Dude
10-13-2009, 09:35 PM
please tell me what areas you think can suport a GOS. There is no "stockpiling game" the game has been over hunted and is starting to get back to the numbers that has been seen in the past. Let the numbers build up more and open up more LEHs. I don't want to sit and wait at home for a draw, but we all can't get a draw. In the mean time I hunt the immy and put in for a draw.
Where has the game been over-hunted? We have half the hunters we used to have in this province, so it would follow that game is getting one half the pressure it used to. Do you have moose inventory numbers that confirm what you're saying? Have you considered predation and habitat issues and their effects on populations, or just figure they have been shot out? What MUs or regions are you talking about, and what timeframes were the moose apparently over-hunted?
T300WSM
10-13-2009, 09:49 PM
Again please tell me what areas you think can suport a GOS?
bridger
10-13-2009, 09:56 PM
why would anyone want to put more leh hunts into the system. the moose season in 7a needs to be revamped not expanded imo
BCrams
10-13-2009, 09:58 PM
why would anyone want to put more leh hunts into the system. the moose season in 7a needs to be revamped not expanded imo
Grin.
I was waiting for such a response! I do think there can be some tweaking here and there to create even more opportunity than currently exists.
Fisher-Dude
10-13-2009, 09:59 PM
In my personal conversation with Ray Demarchi, he told me that the rest of BC can support the same moose management seasons as we currently have in 7A.
I believe that with our current low numbers of hunters and high game populations, we could have GOS 3 point elk and GOS any bull moose across BC, with an aggregate bag limit of one (ie one elk OR one moose), and would have no conservation concerns. Look at it this way - we have MORE elk and moose than ever before in BC, we have half the hunters we had when 3 point elk and any bull moose were open...history proves it is sustainable under those circumstances. Add in the aggregate bag limit, and it's foolproof.
Seems the only problem we have with this proposal is that some guy thinks that a coastal road warrior will come and shoot "his" elk or moose. Brutal attitude, man. :-|
It's a wicked can of worms. There's not much I have to add other than what I already said. Other than, good luck getting region5 on board. Ramseys not going anywhere, and he is dead set against the 'do it this way because it works there' idea.
I kinda like the idea of aggregate bag limit for moose or elk. Would solve my hunting scheduling problems, that's for sure. I'd kill a moose first week of the season every year, shoot birds for all of october, and be one happy camper.
GoatGuy
10-13-2009, 10:28 PM
. Other than, good luck getting region5 on board. Ramseys not going anywhere, and he is dead set against the 'do it this way because it works here idea.
I corrected that for you.
GoatGuy
10-13-2009, 10:44 PM
please tell me what areas you think can suport a GOS. There is no "stockpiling game" the game has been over hunted and is starting to get back to the numbers that has been seen in the past. Let the numbers build up more and open up more LEHs. I don't want to sit and wait at home for a draw, but we all can't get a draw. In the mean time I hunt the immy and put in for a draw.
In summary, moose numbers appear to have increased in many areas since levels estimated in 2000, and
populations appear to be expanding into some areas of the WK, consistent with range expansion
throughout much of western North America (Karns 1998, Darimont et al. 2005). Broad changes in moose
numbers in the Kootenays over the past 2 decades likely have occurred, probably related to changes in
habitat, predator densities, harvest rates and patterns, and winter severity. Population increases may have
occurred in recent years in many areas, possibly as a result of relatively mild winters with low snowfall,
and reduced harvest levels. Numbers of predators (primarily bears and wolves) have likely remained
stable in some areas and increased in others over the past decade. Current harvest rates as calculated from
the available data vary widely among MUs, likely in part a result of differences between population
estimates and real population levels
bridger
10-13-2009, 10:50 PM
Kris, have you even bothered to read Ray's study?
i have discussed moose management with ray a number of times over the years his ideas of providing more hunting opportunites differ greatly from mine. when he was still in victoria he worked very diligently to put moose hunting in 7b on leh similiar to the prince george model. I have always found it interesting that when ken childs put that program in about 25 years ago he told us that it would onlybe in place for five years then he would put in some gos. not only that he gave the non residents 50% of the prime bull tags. ask the guys in prince george that have lived there for years and have never drawn a tag how they like the system. ditto for the kootenays
GoatGuy
10-13-2009, 10:55 PM
I have always found it interesting that when ken childs put that program in about 25 years ago he told us that it would onlybe in place for five years then he would put in some gos. not only that he gave the non residents 50% of the prime bull tags. ask the guys in prince george that have lived there for years and have never drawn a tag how they like the system. ditto for the kootenays
It's bed time, there's no sense in getting a guy all worked up right now.
BCrams
10-13-2009, 10:57 PM
i have discussed moose management with ray a number of times over the years his ideas of providing more hunting opportunites differ greatly from mine. when he was still in victoria he worked very diligently to put moose hunting in 7b on leh similiar to the prince george model. I have always found it interesting that when ken childs put that program in about 25 years ago he told us that it would onlybe in place for five years then he would put in some gos. not only that he gave the non residents 50% of the prime bull tags. ask the guys in prince george that have lived there for years and have never drawn a tag how they like the system. ditto for the kootenays
I was a kid when that happened. Dad still bitches about it today how the GOS bull season near the end of the season at the time allowed him to get a bull if unsuccessful on LEH. Since that LEH entry came in, he has only drew the bull tag locally 4 times. Other than the odd trip north to Ft Nelson, we became very effective taking calf moose for the freezer.
ElliotMoose
10-14-2009, 12:54 AM
I think several areas in region 3 as well as region 5 could support a november calf open season, even if for only a week. This would provide locals with a good meat season. Unfortunately it is only the access that is creating hunter density. There is so much access in these areas with the pine beetle harvesting, so many moose are left more vulnerable every year to road hunting. Still, animal size in this area is increasing, as i am seeing bigger bodies on bulls and cows every year.
First of all what Ray is recommending is not an exact duplicate of the R7a management strategy across the province. Different populations and different densities, vulnerability levels, habitat suitability, and other varying conditions will not allow a single exactly identical system of seasons, season lengths, etc., to work for all regions, there has to be some variations and as GG points out there are many tools to use to control harvest level.
What Ray "is" recommending is a basic province wide moose management regime where moose are harvested from all age and sex classes of the population, that's really all there is to it. Season lengths, timing, etc, may vary somewhat from region to region. The regime Ray recommends maximizes harvest potential while at the same time keeping the population healthy and viable with an intact and fuctional social structure with normal cohort ratios in all age and sex classes.
It's been used in Ontario where Ray's mentor, Tony Bubenick, pioneered modern moose management strategies three decades ago. There really is no arguement that this basic strategy allows the highest sustainable harvest levels and ensures healthy viable populations if applied properly with appropriate season lengths and bag limits that control the harvest levels within sustainable guidelines.
CanuckShooter
10-14-2009, 07:35 AM
i have discussed moose management with ray a number of times over the years his ideas of providing more hunting opportunites differ greatly from mine. when he was still in victoria he worked very diligently to put moose hunting in 7b on leh similiar to the prince george model. I have always found it interesting that when ken childs put that program in about 25 years ago he told us that it would onlybe in place for five years then he would put in some gos. not only that he gave the non residents 50% of the prime bull tags. ask the guys in prince george that have lived there for years and have never drawn a tag how they like the system. ditto for the kootenays
I've said it before, many times, the LEH sucks. They could tweak some things to give the local fellows a few more opportunities, like a longer calf season [happening now in a couple of MUs] later would be better than earlier like they are trying, or the ability to turn in leh draws that are not going to get used. Or perhaps more leh draws with splits: big bulls [10pt or more], big bulls [3 to 9 pt] doubling the number of draws???
ratherbefishin
10-14-2009, 07:37 AM
I am not convinced management has significantly increased or impacted moose populations over a GOS.Weather,disease, road and rail kill,preditors,natural mortality and habitat are outside management control,and likely impact moose populations far more than hunting.Lets assume hunting accounts for 10% of the annual mortality-and ''management'' cuts that by 50%-the net result is only a 5% factor-either way.This is further exacerbated by a 50% decline in hunters.If ''management'' works-where are the results?A higher LEH allocation?Theories are fine-but moose on the hoof are all that counts
I also suggest that management ALSO results in increased mistaken identity as well as illegal harvest-and a dead moose is a dead moose-tagged or not.What I do know is many legitimate hunters simply don't bother hunting anymore due to the restrictions,and maybe thats all part of the plan-fact is-even with a GOS-which goes against management-only a fraction of hunters will be successful anyway-I didn't fill my last LEH-and my record is only drawing 2 LEH tickets in 15 years,with 1 bull taken.One pack of wolves will ''harvest'' far more moose than many hunters will-as will one locomotive on a railway.Neither require an LEH draw....
AGGRAGATE MOOSE AND ELK!?!?!?!?!?!?! :mad: :mad:
ARE YOU GUYS NUTS?!?!?!?!?!?
WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WANT THIS????????
FRICKEN G/Os MAYBE!!
MAN, WE WANT MORE OPPORTUNITIES IN THE PROVINCE NOT LESS!
WHAT'S NEXT AGGRAGATE BEAR OR DEER ??????
Personally I enjoy hunting BOTH in the same year. They are separate animals leave them separate. If some lucky guy gets a chance to take one of each in one year all the better for him or her as the case may be.
I am all for trying to get big horn and thin horn separated…………………………… Sheesh!!!
O.K. I’ll calm down now.:redface:
MY 2 SEPARATE PENNIES
EVERYONE OR NO ONE!
Phreddy
10-19-2009, 11:04 PM
It's well known that if you live in an area, it's no use putting in for LEH anything in that area as locals tend to get substantially short changed. I've never seen more than one or two locals get drawn for local moose.
LEH is a piss off.
hunter1947
10-20-2009, 05:47 AM
My vote is a big yes and why not http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.
d6dan
10-20-2009, 08:04 AM
Yes here also, I was up in 7-08 this season and was lucky enough to take my LEH cow moose. I think by having a similiar season say in region 5, it would take some pressure off 7a area Immature moose. That season is a long one to say the least and we never saw one while we were up there. Musta went underground?.
Generally whole region 7 is moose habitat. Other regions have only spotty moose habitats. So, I would say YES that in other regions we need better moose management and NO , it should not be a copy of practices in region 7.
deer nut
10-20-2009, 10:13 AM
Shorter season & a rut closure are options I would like to see considered (eg. instead of all the antler restrictions in the Peace). This could result in more acute hunting pressure and a degraded quality of experience as a result though.
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