3-17 Spences Rams Illegal

[guest]

Well again, here we go.
2 more illegal undersized and under aged Rams have shown up for Compulsory
inspection and found to be under sized and under aged. Obviously, some guys just don't get it ....... as harsh as it is ...... it's time for LEH for the 3-17 Rocky Mnt. heard at Spences Bridge. Make it 3/4 or any Ram ...... and then some world classed Rams will form again ..... the way it is now, some guys just can't hold off.

CT

[budismyhorse]

not good news.....

[stixnstones]

that sucks big time. how did u hear of this? i was just in at a local fishing store and a guy came askin about what he should do because he was caught by rcmp fishhing with two rods,barb hook,wrong licsence. these people should not be able to hunt/fish if they can not read n know the regulations in the area they are in. my two cents

[Moose72]

Take my kamloops ram for inspection tomorrow. Glad i didn't have to age.

[guest]

Good on you moose 72,
did you have an LEH?? Lets see some pic's, love those big Rams from Kamloops.

Info came from an inside source that is again very disappointed with whats going on in that heard. They will likely be fought in court as for the age thing.
Personally, I have had to wait for the obvious to KNOW it's legal and have taken no chances.

The Rams in this area grow fast but the regs are the regs. Some will never get it.

CT

[Moose72]

Good on you moose 72,
did you have an LEH?? Lets see some pic's, love those big Rams from Kamloops.

Info came from an inside source that is again very disappointed with whats going on in that heard. They will likely be fought in court as for the age thing.
Personally, I have had to wait for the obvious to KNOW it's legal and have taken no chances.

The Rams in this area grow fast but the regs are the regs. Some will never get it.

CTThere is a thread on here somewhere on kamloops lake sheep with all the pics.

[Moose72]

Good on you moose 72,
did you have an LEH?? Lets see some pic's, love those big Rams from Kamloops.

Info came from an inside source that is again very disappointed with whats going on in that heard. They will likely be fought in court as for the age thing.
Personally, I have had to wait for the obvious to KNOW it's legal and have taken no chances.

The Rams in this area grow fast but the regs are the regs. Some will never get it.

CTOh..And yes it was an LEH.

[bruin]

Damn it! Another couple of years they would've been shooters and schmucks like me have a chance at them. A little willpower goes a long way. I probably shouldn't say anthing until I get back from my trip up there!!

[BCBigGame]

I heard the monster taken from Churn Creek area last year was also taken back. Apparently the 'hunter' had never bought a sheep tag and got his 2 days after buying the tag.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not good......

If it holds at 2, it would be much better than last yr:frown:.

SSS

[digger dogger]

how about stiff fines? scrap shooting on age? that would save the court battle...

[RiverBoatFantasy]

IMHO, the "mature" bighorn rule with regards to horn length and age is a very poor rule. I would prefer a "full curl bighorn" rule same as for the Rocky Mountain variety.

Does anyone know of any good, valid reasoning associated with the "mature bighorn" rule?

[BlacktailStalker]

With all the dead illegal rams and cougar kittens popping up, you'd think there was no good hunting in B.C :roll:

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

IMHO, the "mature" bighorn rule with regards to horn length and age is a very poor rule. I would prefer a "full curl bighorn" rule same as for the Rocky Mountain variety.

Does anyone know of any good, valid reasoning associated with the "mature bighorn" rule?

Because the way the horns flare out,a lot of the rams will never become full curl even at a very old age.

[treeclimber]

It should be an 3/4 curl only LEH

[1/2 slam]

How about something similar to the states? You want to hunt Spences Bridge you can only buy your tag in Kamloops. It also involves a couple of hour training seminar.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

Because the way the horns flare out,a lot of the rams will never become full curl even at a very old age.

Well if that is the case then the current rules should provide greater hunter opportunity to harvest a legal ram. Is that the case?

I'm just asking because I have never hunted near Spence's Bridge for sheep. Only looked at them from the vehicle.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Well if that is the case then the current rules should provide greater hunter opportunity to harvest a legal ram. Is that the case?

I'm just asking because I have never hunted near Spence's Bridge for sheep. Only looked at them from the vehicle.

There is ample opportunity to harvest a legal ram !the portion of 3 -17 you are refering to ,a ram does not need to be full curl he needs to be 8 years old as evidenced by true horn annuli.The problem is alot of new sheep hunters do not know how to properly age a ram so illegal rams are being shot which in turn leads to less mature legal rams.I think 3/4 curl or better leh would be the way to go.

[bridger]

the problem of shooting under age rams will not be solved by putting residents on leh and reducing hunting opportunites. I like the idea of first time sheep hunters having to attend a sheep hunting seminar. the easiest way not to harvest an illegal ram is don't shoot if you are not 100% sure the ram is legal. pretty simple. shooting on age allows older broomed rams to be harvested, but is tricky and not recommended for newbies. setting up a sheep hunting seminar for spence's bridge would not be that difficult and is maybe something the moe should consider for all big horn areas not just the bridge. Inexperience is the main cause of guys whacking under sized rams--leh won't change that.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

Yes indeed. Inexperience, impatience, poor aging skills, poor optics, greedy desire to fill a sheep tag, are all very real factors that cause underaged/undersized rams to be shot.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

IMHO, the "mature" bighorn rule with regards to horn length and age is a very poor rule. I would prefer a "full curl bighorn" rule same as for the Rocky Mountain variety.

Does anyone know of any good, valid reasoning associated with the "mature bighorn" rule?



Previous to the "mature bighorn" regulation, Spences' has a "full curl bighorn" regulation. Problem was that there were 3 yrs olds reaching full curl in that area(fast growing/easy winters/good genetics) and they felt there were too many young rams getting whacked.
They needed to do something and going to a "mature bighorn" regulation was the next logical step. The regs changed ~1999 or 2000, IIRC?

SSS

[Twobucks]

At the risk of drawing fire on this board, I think some form of madatory hunter education would go a long way towards three things:

1. Stopping the shooting of undersize/illegal game
2. "Mis-understanding" of game laws (it's difficult for some people to pick through the regs and interpret just what is meant)
3. Improve hunter ethics.

I'd argue that these three points are important for the health of wildlife and to allow hunting to continue into the future. Hunters are often their own worst enemy when it comes to public perception.

I plan on hunting for the rest of my life, and I'll do everything I can to make sure my kids have the same opportunity. But the attitude toward shooting game that lures people into shooting questionable rams is a threat to both the hunters and the hunted.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

Previous to the "mature bighorn" regulation, Spences' has a "full curl bighorn" regulation. Problem was that there were 3 yrs olds reaching full curl in that area(fast growing/easy winters/good genetics) and they felt there were too many young rams getting whacked.
They needed to do something and going to a "mature bighorn" regulation was the next logical step. The regs changed ~1999 or 2000, IIRC?

SSS

Thanks for that input.

[bighornbob]

As a couple have indicated Spences was placed on the Mature rule as too many young rams were being killed ( some 3 year olds were full curl). I cant remember the number but something like close to 15-20 rams were killed a year out of the one unit. Where as in the Koots you maybe get 15 rams killed in all of Region 4.

The Mature rule lets some of the old heavy broomed rams be killed as once they broom their horns they may never reach the bridge of the nose.

Once the rule was put into effect the harvest dropped from the high teens to 5 or 6. So it really works if everyone follows the rules.

To hopefully curb the illegal killing the WSSOBC had large 4 foot signs signs made and placed at the bottom of Murray Creek rd and Botanie Creek Rd. Signs are meant to remind hunters of the Mature rule (I have met a few hunters there that still had no idea of the rule even though it was in effect for a few years). It also guides hunters to the WSSOBC website for the Horn Curl Education Page.

So some illegal rams are being killed but is it enough of a problem to have stricker rules is the question. If the ministry only wants to see 7-10 rams killed a year for sustainability reasons and that many are being killed combined (legal and illegal). Is there a problem? Sure we as hunters are shooting are selves in the foot for killing bigger sheep but is there a problem with sustainability?

LEH will only decrease the number of kills and kill resident oppurtunity. If the number of kills is not a problem (see above) then LEH wont solve anything. And for those that think LEH will increase the trophy potential you are kidding yourself. Look at how many young rams are killed along the Fraser river hunts (50:1 odds) that are only 4-5 year olds. The only thing LEH will do is let non sheep hunters kill a 4 year old 3/4 curl. And the guys that know where a 190 class 10 year old lives will never draw a tag.

The biggest problem is half the people dont read the regs (all species and areas not just sheep in spences) and the other half see the need to have to kill a ram. Hunters start to feel the pressure after not killing for a few years and will take bad or long shots when finally seeing a ram that might be legal. I have heard of guys shooting over the heads of other hunters that beat them up the hill. Guys almost getting into fights as they had spotted the ram three days ago and have been watching it ever since and its their ram. I could almost write a chapter of a book on the stories of poor etiquete/greedyness I have heard in regards to sheep hunters. Does not even compare to all the other species combined.

So how do we address this problem:

I would love to see a education course for those wanting to hunt the area. In the states these types of courses are mandatory even for out of state hunters. Dont want to take the course hunt the other 12 species in the province or hunts stones up north or rockies in the Koots. Those that would say they cant make it to Kamloops for a one day course obviously dont want to hunt Spences that bad. If no course is offered make a an extra sheep stamp (like steelhead) available. This would come with a extra book explaining the situation and the photos etc etc. Make the hunters take and pass the horn curl education test on the WSSOBC website. If a hunter still shoots a small ram, ban him from hunting sheep for the next 10 years. That would get guys thinking about it.

BHB

[bigwhiteys]

This would come with a extra book explaining the situation and the photos etc etc. Make the hunters take and pass the horn curl education test on the WSSOBC website. If a hunter still shoots a small ram, ban him from hunting sheep for the next 10 years. That would get guys thinking about it.

I am all for better education for sheep hunters, but across the board thinhorn and bighorn not just for specific regions or sub units.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

I would love to see a education course for those wanting to hunt the area. In the states these types of courses are mandatory even for out of state hunters. Dont want to take the course hunt the other 12 species in the province or hunts stones up north or rockies in the Koots. Those that would say they cant make it to Kamloops for a one day course obviously dont want to hunt Spences that bad. If no course is offered make a an extra sheep stamp (like steelhead) available. This would come with a extra book explaining the situation and the photos etc etc. Make the hunters take and pass the horn curl education test on the WSSOBC website. If a hunter still shoots a small ram, ban him from hunting sheep for the next 10 years. That would get guys thinking about it.

BHB

Education's the ticket.

I'm not sure the 10 year ban will have the desired result. Might end up with more sheep being left in the bush - don't know?

[bayou]

I am all for better education for sheep hunters, but across the board thinhorn and bighorn not just for specific regions or sub units.

Carl
I agree with that better education for sheep hunters for all sheep not just the spences herd. I know of a few different groups of people that have taken more then one illegal ram in the EK. Mainly for some of the reasons BHB pointed out. In some cases they were even told the rams were not legal but still went ahead and took them.

[chucknelson]

What is considered full curl for the Bighorns in BC?

[GoatGuy]

I agree with that better education for sheep hunters for all sheep not just the spences herd. I know of a few different groups of people that have taken more then one illegal ram in the EK. Mainly for some of the reasons BHB pointed out. In some cases they were even told the rams were not legal but still went ahead and took them.

Sounds like you've been hanging around at the A&W too much.

[BlacktailStalker]

I agree with that better education for sheep hunters for all sheep not just the spences herd. I know of a few different groups of people that have taken more then one illegal ram in the EK. Mainly for some of the reasons BHB pointed out. In some cases they were even told the rams were not legal but still went ahead and took them.

This explains a lot.

[willy442]

Guided hunts only for Sheep by qualified people. This would take care of the problem totally. :biggrin:

[RiverBoatFantasy]

I agree with that better education for sheep hunters for all sheep not just the spences herd. I know of a few different groups of people that have taken more then one illegal ram in the EK. Mainly for some of the reasons BHB pointed out. In some cases they were even told the rams were not legal but still went ahead and took them.

Dont entice me to name a name. :twisted:

[RiverBoatFantasy]

Guided hunts only for Sheep by qualified people. This would take care of the problem totally. :biggrin:



There should be 3 guides per sheep hunter just to eliminate any confusion or mistakes.

[bighornbob]

Guided hunts only for Sheep by qualified people. This would take care of the problem totally. :biggrin:

You are right the government should make guides take out residents. Lets make a rookie sheep hunter LEH. Rookies wanting to hunt sheep would apply for the LEH and if drawn he could choose the outfitter of his choice. There would be no fee paid to the guide and the rams shot would come out of the outfitters quota. The outfitter would not be able to take out any other hunters until a ram was harvested by the rookie. That way a rookie sheep hunter would learn from the pros and no illegal rams would be harvested. great Idea Willy

BHB

[GoatGuy]

There should be 3 guides per sheep hunter just to eliminate any confusion or mistakes.

Or more people to make the rock pile.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

Or more people to make the rock pile.

I learned of that technique when I observed a BC guide with an Alberta outfitter as client on a swap hunt. The ram was legal. They buried the whole carcass under a rockpile after skinning out for a life size mount. Horses were located on the trail a few hundred metres below.

Dont entice me to name any names!

[GoatGuy]

I learned of that technique when I observed a BC guide with an Alberta outfitter as client on a swap hunt. The ram was legal. They buried the whole carcass under a rockpile after skinning out for a life size mount. Horses were located on the trail a few hundred metres below.

Dont entice me to name any names!

Probably just burrying it so the grizzlies couldn't smell it until they got back.:roll:

[GoatGuy]

Dont entice me to name a name. :twisted:

Shocking....

[willy442]

You are right the government should make guides take out residents. Lets make a rookie sheep hunter LEH. Rookies wanting to hunt sheep would apply for the LEH and if drawn he could choose the outfitter of his choice. There would be no fee paid to the guide and the rams shot would come out of the outfitters quota. The outfitter would not be able to take out any other hunters until a ram was harvested by the rookie. That way a rookie sheep hunter would learn from the pros and no illegal rams would be harvested. great Idea Willy

BHB

I purposely never said Outfitters as I was thinking more about some of the Pro's on this site like SSS, GG, DD and a few others taking care of the guiding issue. Remember the resident HUNTER owns all the sheep and we need to keep the price down, outfitter would be cost prohibitive.:biggrin:

[bayou]

Sounds like you've been hanging around at the A&W too much.
Wouldnt expect much more of a comment then that from you but of course some of this may have happened before you were even allowed to hunt.

[bayou]

[quote=RiverBoatFantasy;526213]I learned of that technique when I observed a BC guide with an Alberta outfitter as client on a swap hunt. The ram was legal. They buried the whole carcass under a rockpile after skinning out for a life size mount. Horses were located on the trail a few hundred metres below.
Theres also one were 2 residents shot a couple of rams and left them in there packs over night and came to town and told everyone about them, when they went back one had become to short over night said a grizzly had chewed the tips off over night. Was that his first or second illegal one cant remember now.
Dont entice me to name any names!

[GoatGuy]

Wouldnt expect much more of a comment then that from you but of course some of this may have happened before you were even allowed to hunt.

Might have even happened more the once.

All those sheep poachers are the same.:roll:

The old boys must just roll their eyes.

[willy442]

Wouldnt expect much more of a comment then that from you but of course some of this may have happened before you were even allowed to hunt.

NO FIGHTING with STATS MAN. The great Gatehouse will punish you.:lol:

[GoatGuy]

NO FIGHTING with STATS MAN. The great Gatehouse will punish you.:lol:

It's always better when it comes from somebody who's guided short sheep.

[ianwuzhere]

-Sheep are the hardest animal ive ever hunted to judge size.
-I would definatly be up for paying extra money added to the license for a small booklet with extra pictures/info which may help identify legal rams. Possibly the extra $ would be put back into educating hunters/courses etc...-the guide idea i think is not a good idea.

[willy442]

It's always better when it comes from somebody who's guided short sheep.

If you are going to make an accusation like that please provide evidence. Pictures, time date, names and also the determining compulsory inspector. Try to be more accurate than all the numbers you throw out at us.:razz:

[willy442]

Do you guys glare at each other and get in fights at the WSSBC AGM's?
or do you do like I do and admire all the pretty dolls in attendance.

I've been there once and found it to be pretty much a waste of my time. Much like alot of the crap on here. I find most accomplished sheep hunters in the Province avoid both.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

I've been there once and found it to be pretty much a waste of my time. Much like alot of the crap on here. I find most accomplished sheep hunters in the Province avoid both.

I would have to agree with you on this point. I cancelled my membership and stopped attending after my first AGM.

It actually made me want to puke when a noted sheep poacher served as a director at the time. Perhaps you know the story about the ram that was packed away and gutted at a different location?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I would have to agree with you on this point. I cancelled my membership and stopped attending after my first AGM.

It actually made me want to puke when a noted sheep poacher served as a director at the time. Perhaps you know the story about the ram that was packed away and gutted at a different location?

Best part about WSSBC is that the membership is relatively small and decide who are the directors. Don't like it, then do something about it.
I've felt the same as you in the past but I like the group that is at the helm right now. Good people....guys and gals!

SSS

[RiverBoatFantasy]

Best part about WSSBC is that the membership is relatively small and decide who are the directors. Don't like it, then do something about it.
I've felt the same as you in the past but I like the group that is at the helm right now. Good people....guys and gals!

SSS

It has been quite a few years. I may check it out again.

[bayou]

[quote=RiverBoatFantasy;526272]I would have to agree with you on this point. I cancelled my membership and stopped attending after my first AGM.

It actually made me want to puke when a noted sheep poacher served as a director at the time. Perhaps you know the story about the ram that was packed away and gutted at a different location?
Would that happen to be the year 1987, scored 181 placed 2nd at the EK banquet that year after the 192 4/8 chupa ram, now that was a pretty impresive ram.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

[quote=RiverBoatFantasy;526272]I would have to agree with you on this point. I cancelled my membership and stopped attending after my first AGM.

It actually made me want to puke when a noted sheep poacher served as a director at the time. Perhaps you know the story about the ram that was packed away and gutted at a different location?
Would that happen to be the year 1987, scored 181 placed 2nd at the EK banquet that year after the 192 4/8 chupa ram, now that was a pretty impresive ram.

The only thing that impressed me was that the guy was able to carry the thing away - guts and all. I have no idea about scores or placements in any contests.

The topic was discussed on this forum. I wont mention the person's name for it may cause me to puke all over again. He did say he was sorry.

[bayou]

[quote=RiverBoatFantasy;526285][quote=bayou;526281]

The only thing that impressed me was that the guy was able to carry the thing away - guts and all. I have no idea about scores or placements in any contests.

The topic was discussed on this forum. I wont mention the person's name for it may cause me to puke all over again. He did say he was sorry.Same guy

[GoatGuy]

Would that happen to be the year 1987, scored 181 placed 2nd at the EK banquet that year after the 192 4/8 chupa ram, now that was a pretty impresive ram.

I don't know what the deal is with poachers and those trophy banquets??

[bayou]

[quote=Stone Sheep Steve;526275]Best part about WSSBC is that the membership is relatively small and decide who are the directors. Don't like it, then do something about it.
I've felt the same as you in the past but I like the group that is at the helm right now. Good people....guys and gals!
Just went and checked out the list of directors some interesting names one guy on there that some on here sure seem to have a hate on for but has always seemed up front on here. I see Bamm Bamm is a director boy he sure has come along way, bring up the topic of shooting a little bear inside of someone elses house at the next meeting may be a good story.
SSS

[bayou]

I don't know what the deal is with poachers and those trophy banquets??There trying to impress people and be things there not just like you do with your BS.

[bridger]

Guided hunts only for Sheep by qualified people. This would take care of the problem totally. :biggrin:
come on willie you can't be serious. we all know outfitters and their clients harvest underage or illegal rams and other species every year as do residents.

[willy442]

come on willie you can't be serious. we all know outfitters and their clients harvest underage or illegal rams and other species every year as do residents.

Not argueing that fact. The point made was the accusation was directed at myself. With that in mind if you care to back up GG. I would like the same information in regards to myself brought forth.

[bridger]

Not argueing that fact. The point made was the accusation was directed at myself. With that in mind if you care to back up GG. I would like the same information in regards to myself brought forth.

didn't see gg post and don't know about the accusation. have never known u to do anything illegal

[budismyhorse]

[quote=bayou;526281]

The only thing that impressed me was that the guy was able to carry the thing away - guts and all. I have no idea about scores or placements in any contests.

The topic was discussed on this forum. I wont mention the person's name for it may cause me to puke all over again. He did say he was sorry.


...Don't give him that much respect....he did it in two trips.

A joke around the EV for years after was to ask a successfull sheep hunter "how far did ya pack the guts?"

Apparently a small peice of the sheeps DNA and a smoke butt at the actual kill site did him in.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

[quote=RiverBoatFantasy;526285]


...Don't give him that much respect....he did it in two trips.

A joke around the EV for years after was to ask a successfull sheep hunter "how far did ya pack the guts?"

Apparently a small peice of the sheeps DNA and a smoke butt at the actual kill site did him in.

I wonder if he ever produced replica artwork of the ram for resale? Ah well, he's not the only one. There are some questionable entries in the B&C. One in particular stands out.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

[quote=RiverBoatFantasy;526285]


...Don't give him that much respect....he did it in two trips.

A joke around the EV for years after was to ask a successfull sheep hunter "how far did ya pack the guts?"

Apparently a small peice of the sheeps DNA and a smoke butt at the actual kill site did him in.

Does the kill location still exist or has it been flattened?

[1899]

[quote=RiverBoatFantasy;526285]


...Don't give him that much respect....he did it in two trips.

A joke around the EV for years after was to ask a successfull sheep hunter "how far did ya pack the guts?"

Apparently a small peice of the sheeps DNA and a smoke butt at the actual kill site did him in.

Are you talking about Thomas Schrieber? I guess there probably have been lots of folks that move the kill site.


Here is a link to the case, it is an interesting read:
http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/doc/1996/1996canlii3150/1996canlii3150.html

[GoatGuy]

Not argueing that fact. The point made was the accusation was directed at myself. With that in mind if you care to back up GG. I would like the same information in regards to myself brought forth.

I was under the impression that you had a client that shot a short ram, which you reported.

Point is everybody makes mistakes, even the 'pros'. Berating somebody for it isn't going to help solve the problem.

Maybe you could put together an article on how to judge sheep to HELP.

[blackbart]

Thank-you 1899. Found that to be a most interesting read.

[willy442]

I was under the impression that you had a client that shot a short ram, which you reported.

Point is everybody makes mistakes, even the 'pros'. Berating somebody for it isn't going to help solve the problem.

Maybe you could put together an article on how to judge sheep to HELP.

I think I've provided help to many on here in regards to Sheep. Most of which you are kept in the dark on. It's pretty much impossible to try and teach one much on the open site here with guy's like yourself that are constantly disagreeing even when you have limited knowledge and resources on the subject. The court case on the Spence's Ram will prove that. Most of the Sheep issue's are due to TRIGGER HAPPY RESIDENT HUNTERS period. Fines and punishment should be much more severe for infractions. Also the sheep you refer to was hit by accident as stated, big difference between that and purposely shot.:lol:

[RiverBoatFantasy]

The high profile cases of sheep poaching in region 4 were deliberate and planned. Many stone's sheep are likely shot by trigger happy hunters. It sounds like the Spence's rams were shot by persons with a poorly developed skill for identifying legal rams - trigger happy.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

[quote=willy442;528079] The court case on the Spence's Ram will prove that. Most of the Sheep issue's are due to TRIGGER HAPPY RESIDENT HUNTERS period. Fines and punishment should be much more severe for infractions. /quote]

I'm thinking you know about the rumours that I've heard about the guy's defence??

Too bad you don't know some of the other details that I know are true about this case. You may not want this ram to actually be 8 yrs old:???:.

Due dilligence was not given to this ram.

SSS

[willy442]

[quote=willy442;528079] The court case on the Spence's Ram will prove that. Most of the Sheep issue's are due to TRIGGER HAPPY RESIDENT HUNTERS period. Fines and punishment should be much more severe for infractions. /quote]

I'm thinking you know about the rumours that I've heard about the guy's defence??

Too bad you don't know some of the other details that I know are true about this case. You may not want this ram to actually be 8 yrs old:???:.

Due dilligence was not given to this ram.

SSS

Let's wait and see. No use falling into the assumption making, that runs rampart on this site. I think the whole issue will be educational to many.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

Please spare us the suspense and post up some of the "rumours" perhaps in the form of hypothetical "what ifs"............................

Would be good education for the rest of the season. Stating that the case is before the courts and no comments are forthcoming is meaningless.

Step up and post some juicy details!

[RiverBoatFantasy]

I must come to the defence of Willy. Over the course of many northern Stone's sheep hunts I have encountered numerous newbie sheep hunters. Most had been brought in by packers and some ventured out on thier own. Many that I spoke with had not ever seen a Stone's sheep or hunted any type of sheep prior to the trip and had not been mentored by anyone.

I can recall 5 separate occasions where I have been approached by individuals asking for my opinion on thier dead ram.

Trigger happy is an apt description.

Many of these persons had no real life ram judgement skills. Many had poor optics. Many had unrealistic expectations of hunt success based upon stories, articles, and pictures. Many had felt pressured to be successful either because of thier own need for such fulfillment or to prove something to others. Many had become frustrated after spending much time, money and effort. Very few exhibited the quality known as patience. Many felt it was thier right to harvest a sheep because they had paid for a trip on a boat, horse, or plane.

I can say this much, I have returned home empty-handed from a sheep hunt more often than I have been successful. Much more. Nonetheless, every sheep hunt is a success for it's own special reasons.

In conclusion I must state that I despise the deliberate and planned poaching of large rams that regularly occurs in the Kootenay region. I also despise the excessive restrictions in place where there is a high population of trophy class animals.

I support mandatory training and education of first time sheep hunters. I would also be happy and honored to take along a new sheep hunter provided the person is willing to be patient, listen, look, and learn.

[willy442]

Please spare us the suspense and post up some of the "rumours" perhaps in the form of hypothetical "what ifs"............................

Would be good education for the rest of the season. Stating that the case is before the courts and no comments are forthcoming is meaningless.

Step up and post some juicy details!

Unfortunately at this time I can't do this. The case is before the courts and thats were it will stay for now. What I can say is the person that harvested this ram knew what he was doing and in my opinion harvested a legal ram. :)

[RiverBoatFantasy]

The harvest of a legal ram would be a positive outcome.

[bigwhiteys]

Too bad you don't know some of the other details that I know are true about this case. You may not want this ram to actually be 8 yrs old:???:.

If you are suggesting the ram may have been taken under questionable circumstances then there is another issue then just the rams age.

Carl