Klappan Road Closure

[25tikka]

Was just informed that the natives have blocked the Klappan Road at the highway. All camps have 24 hours to "get out" and no new hunters allowed in. RCMP will be in attendance as I was told. Anyone thinking of going up that way should contact the Dease lake RCMP or the Iskut band office for current info.

[mark]

Whats their beef or intention???? Give us more free money, like always!
I hope they call in the military and give the buggers 30 seconds to go home, or else! :twisted:

[25tikka]

Not sure of the reason. I posted so that anyone intending to hunt up there could check current road status before the big drive.If anyone has any further info, please share.

[1899]

Whats their beef or intention???? Give us more free money, like always!
I hope they call in the military and give the buggers 30 seconds to go home, or else! :twisted:

Last time they were trying to prevent Shell from exploring for minerals in the headwaters of the Nass and Stikine.

[mark]

Last time they were trying to prevent Shell from exploring for minerals in the headwaters of the Nass and Stikine.


if that were the case, then why interfere with hunters????

[1899]

I don't know, I'm just saying that was the issue last time - 2005 or 2006.

[PGK]

Last time they were trying to prevent Shell from exploring for minerals in the headwaters of the Nass and Stikine.

If that's the case, power to them!!!!!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I had heard things were going to get nasty in that corner of the Province:???:.

Gordo-Show us your balls!!!....if you've got any:???:.

SSS

[1899]

If that's the case, power to them!!!!!

That's what I thought too. Here is the web site:

http://www.sacredheadwaters.com/

[PGK]

Yeah I know all about it. Unfortunately, this is likely the only way any development is going to get stopped in that country. Bad news for the last of the bc wilderness.

[teenawright]

Here is the gig, only the resident hunters have been issued 24-48 hours to vacate the Klappan. Reason.......too much pressure over the years has depleted the moose population in some peoples opinion. This has nothing to do with possible future mining development.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here is the gig, only the resident hunters have been issued 24-48 hours to vacate the Klappan. Reason.......too much pressure over the years has depleted the moose population in some peoples opinion. This has nothing to do with possible future mining development.

This is along the line of what I've heard.

They don't like residents in their corner of the province....and they don't like the pilots that cater to "us".
They can't wait until Bruce is out of business.....and (guessing) they don't have much use for one of our HBC sponsers.

They prefer the GO's to "us".:|

Hearsay?? Maybe but I've got a pretty reliable source of info.

SSS

[palmer]

Sounds like the Caribou all over again.......

[THE SWEDE]

Time for another Oka or Gustafson Lake

[Amphibious]

and what happens if you refuse to leave? I think things would get awful ugly if I was camping up there at them moment.

Ah Indians, your tax dollars hard at work ;)

[elkdom]

every "BINGO HALL" within 200 klms will be EMPTY! :-|

[boatdoc]

I will probably get shit on but, if we let anyone blockade any road for any reason, we will slide even further down a slippery slope. I say the rcmp are screwing everyone bye keeping the peace. The rcmp should send home or arrest the blockaders, end of story!
How come there is one set of laws for some and a whole lot less for some others?

[pro 111]

Right on boatdoc , rcmp should get a set of balls and quit being such a bunch of politicaly corect chicken shits.

[Mik]

I guess that spoils our trip, we were packed and ready to roll this Thursday. Maybe Gordo can reimburse my Grizzly tag!!!

[Rob]

Its not the RCMP's call. Didnt this same sort of thing happen in Alexis creek a few years ago?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I guess that spoils our trip, we were packed and ready to roll this Thursday. Maybe Gordo can reimburse my Grizzly tag!!!

Tell them you're going up there to put the hurt on the wolves so there will be more moose left for them:wink:.

I would be really choked if I were you.

SSS

[mark]

Its not the RCMP's call. Didnt this same sort of thing happen in Alexis creek a few years ago?

Gustafson lake standoff!!! Was like 15 years ago!

Indians were shooting ranchers cattle, shooting at RCMP vehicles with fully auto guns, and we were bringing them food & supplies so they were comfortable! And they got away with it of course!
I was a 100 mile resident at the time and can tell you locals were outraged!

[TheDuckinator]

Right on boatdoc , rcmp should get a set of balls and quit being such a bunch of politicaly corect chicken shits.

You should hear some of the stories of rcmp officers, makes your blood run cold... and surprise surprise they never hit the news. Its okay if the officers drive drunk and beat up paper boys but the second natives are involved they walk on glass

[Mik]

Tell them you're going up there to put the hurt on the wolves so there will be more moose left for them:wink:.

I would be really choked if I were you.

SSS
I'll be calling the band first thing tomorrow morning. Yep, i'm pissed, now scrambling for the back up plan....Jade/Boulder, maybe Pink Mountain, or McKenzie????

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I'll be calling the band first thing tomorrow morning. Yep, i'm pissed, now scrambling for the back up plan....Jade/Boulder, maybe Pink Mountain, or McKenzie????

Heard this won't be the last blockade in the area.

Just wait.................

I'd lead towards 7B.......if I were you.....but that's exactly what they want.

SSS

[Amphibious]

go anyways. **** them. they try to take your animal or interfere with your hunt... well, lots of places to "get lost" up there....

no one ****s with my hunt. I'd be livid.

[THE SWEDE]

Tell em theres free Grape Pop and ketchup chips in town..When they stampede you sneak in,,Genius idea really

[EvanG]

Whats the rental cost of D-9 Cat these days, I would be willing to pitch.

[Gunner]

A bucket of KFC should get you through any native roadblock. Gunner

[blackbart]

Hello Mark.

I believe that Rob is referring to the hunting season in region 5 about four or five years ago now that the MOE tried to implement a spike fork moose season. And yes, there were protests west of Williams Lake from some of the locals.

Unless I am mistaken Gustefson Lake was a very different set of circumstances.

Sound wildlife management and sound politics (is there really such a thing???) do not mix very well!

[Marc]

OK guys I'm sure we can have a healthy debate or discussion without throwing insults that have nothing to do with the subject at hand...

[1899]

If you really want to go then why not call the Chief, tell them who you are and why you'd like to go there and explain that the reason you are calling is because you respect the fact that their people have been there for thousands of years. Then ask for permission.

[coyotejoe]

Hey Mark! Indians don't protest about money all the time. You could do well to read a bit before your arrogance and bigotry attitude define who you are. I dont know you well enough to encompass you as a complete bigot/a$$ but if you allow ignorance to dominate your thoughts than you deserve the branding.

Let it be known, or remembered, no government ever gave its people what they needed or wanted without us fighting for it first. They have, however, repeatedly taken from us what we value, and they will continue to do so unless we stand up to them. So my hunting colleagues, if they decided to hault all hunting - or turn it into a three week season only - would you protest, write/blog, maybe blockade, to get your opinion heard? I imagine you would. So you may not believe in what the First Nations band is doing, but they dont deserve to be riduculed for their race's history, or for their tryst at bringing alarm to the public, as i am sure this is their ownly means left. I highly doubt it was their first action.
Besides, this province is HUGE, find another place to hunt - or join the protest. I DARE YOU :)

[Amphibious]

you know what would be a great alternative protest for them? start turning down all the freebee's that I the tax payer pay for.

bring that up at the next band council and see how it goes over. I Dare YOU

it's much easier to form illegal blockades that they know will never get busted up because out government has a guilt complex when it comes to people of "status"

The people of canada all all equal! but some are more equal then others it seems...

Zero sympathy for the Native political movement.

[1899]

Can someone remind me how we non-natives "aquired" that particular area of the province? How did the Crown come to own it and gain the right to dictate what happens there?

[Amphibious]

Can someone remind me how we non-natives "aquired" that particular area of the province? How did the Crown come to own it and gain the right to dictate what happens there?


then crown fought harder. well, the pen was mightier in this case.

lets remember also that everyone was a non-native in North-america at one point

[Ambush]

Can someone remind me how we non-natives "aquired" that particular area of the province? How did the Crown come to own it and gain the right to dictate what happens there?

How did every country in the world come to own it's land base?

We got it the same way the present natives got it. We were stronger than the previous "owners"

[nerka992003]

So a guy is camped in there and they (RCMP Indians) whomever tell you that you must leave theres no legal reason why, so you stay there and go on about your buisness what are they going to do? is it not the duty of the RCMP basically to serve and protect?and last time I looked the regulations says it open for hunting with a few restrictions but what the hell. I say piss on em and don't be bullied into ruining a perfectly good hunting season.

[1899]

How did every country in the world come to own it's land base?

We got it the same way the present natives got it. We were stronger than the previous "owners"

That is the point people, the natives were never conquered. They were tricked into agreements where they ended up getting nothing. I wish people would learn more about our history. Many native people didn't even know what was happening around them. British Columbia joined Canada in 1871, and at that time the majority of the population were natives. They were never consulted or informed.

Are you familiar with the Royal Proclamation of 1763? In it the British Crown recognized Aboriginal Title and ownership of the land, and stated that the Crown could only acquire land by treaties. Other than the Douglas Treaties on Vancouver Island the Crown NEVER made treaties with other native groups in BC. So then, how did Aboriginal title in that area of BC get extinguished? Here is a hint: it didn't.

Not even 10 years after the Douglas Treaties were signed (and native people were put on small reserves) the Crown reversed most of the rights the natives bartered for...they did this unilaterally. Wouldn't you be pissed?

I just think it is very important to take a balanced look at the whole situation.

[crofton_hunter]

Have to love racism, always lurking , even here in Canada...

[slowkey]

That is the point people, the natives were never conquered.


well that could lead the topic down a different road couldn't it

I'm thinking some people maybe suggesting that we conquer them now

[1899]

well that could lead the topic down a different road couldn't it

I'm thinking some people maybe suggesting that we conquer them now

It really is too bad how the government deals with native people. It doesn't please me in the least bit that they throw up blockades, but I have some idea of why they do it. You and I would do the same if we were in their position.

Did you know that the native people around Winnipeg used to be amazing farmers? In fact they outproduced the white farmers and were slowly taking over the agriculture business. Guess what happened. The government, in 1910, passed a law that made it illegal for natives to sell their produce to anyone but the government. At a price the government set. Do you need me to tell you the rest of the story?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If you really want to go then why not call the Chief, tell them who you are and why you'd like to go there and explain that the reason you are calling is because you respect the fact that their people have been there for thousands of years. Then ask for permission.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Chief Rick McLean and doesn't he own Eagle River Outfitters.

http://www.bcbiggamehunts.com/pages/the_hunt.html

Seems a lttle more complicated that one first might think. They don't want resident hunters up here but it's okay for them to sell wildlife to rich foreigners:roll:.

Maybe I'm way out to lunch on this one:-?.

SSS

[THE SWEDE]

Good work Brent..I remeber my friends having a run in with some guides from that outfit.Did not end well

[cmc destroyer]

Yeah, I'm so sick of the bleeding hearts that are afraid to stand up to the indians!! Why don't we set up road blocks and keep them on the reserves like we used to do!!
Stay the **** out of my Safeway!!! Give them them their loin cloths and sticks and strings and let them get their meat the "traditional way".
Time to play cowboys and indians again!!!

[LYKTOHUNT]

every "BINGO HALL" within 200 klms will be EMPTY! :-|
Now that is funny ,but at the same time sad but true.

[835]

Befor i start i would like to say i am white and have saveral native friends, where i spent the last 12years you make friends reguardless of color.
All this talk about how we came to "own canada" is totally irrelavent, we are all Canadians. What do you expect all us "whities" to go back to England. No. Do you expect all the natives to go to the reserve?
no. We are all Canadian. Yes in the early years the English did alot of bad things, this i know. But it is done. I sincearly hope thoes that were hurt can heal. We draw this line between white and native and make this racism. Both races. My point is this What is done has been done sad but true wright or wrong. But there will always be racism until we are all equal, and right now we are not. I ill be hunting with my native buddie Dave this year and not be thinking about all this shit.
I hope what the natives are doing is for the god of the place, If they are doing it for their own gain, Then expect the racism because there actions are raceist. I dont know witch it is.

[cmc destroyer]

Ok, So maybe I was a little harsh with my last post. But come on!! enough is enough!
I too have indian buddies. Regardless, the racism will continue as long as one race is catered to by (the government) more than the other.
Is it not racism to to say a white person has to buy tags and hunt within the limits of the law while the indian can shoot what is in front of him? I had an indian buddy brag a couple years ago about dropping two fawns and how good they were to eat, he eventualy took 5 deer that year.
How is it that they can set up road blocks, pay no taxes,get money from the government etc. but when a white person objects or says something"politicaly incorrect" he is a racist?
Damn right lets be equal!! get rid of reserves, taxes for all, hunting laws governing all. Countries have been conquered and divided for centuries. If you werent strong enough to defend your country you lost it. suck it up.

[Steeleco]

OK guys I'm sure we can have a healthy debate or discussion without throwing insults that have nothing to do with the subject at hand... First warning gang!!


I'm so sick of the bleeding hearts that are afraid to stand up to the indians!!

As are most folk, but turning a healthy debate into a racial slur fest will get yet another thread locked.

It's the Government that perpetuated this scenario, maybe they should be the ones we shit on first???

[Samsquantch]

Any update as to what is going on in Iskut re the Ealue Lake Road?

[Shooter]

Hey Mark! Indians don't protest about money all the time. You could do well to read a bit before your arrogance and bigotry attitude define who you are. I dont know you well enough to encompass you as a complete bigot/a$$ but if you allow ignorance to dominate your thoughts than you deserve the branding.

Let it be known, or remembered, no government ever gave its people what they needed or wanted without us fighting for it first. They have, however, repeatedly taken from us what we value, and they will continue to do so unless we stand up to them. So my hunting colleagues, if they decided to hault all hunting - or turn it into a three week season only - would you protest, write/blog, maybe blockade, to get your opinion heard? I imagine you would. So you may not believe in what the First Nations band is doing, but they dont deserve to be riduculed for their race's history, or for their tryst at bringing alarm to the public, as i am sure this is their ownly means left. I highly doubt it was their first action.
Besides, this province is HUGE, find another place to hunt - or join the protest. I DARE YOU :)

Then why don't you tell us what its about. Sounds to me like another form of terrorism. Holding the land hostage while making demands and threatening violence to the hunters/campers in the area. You say you are trying to bring alarm to the public. Do yopu think you are winning any public support? Come on. Sooner or later this country will fall into civil war over crap like this. You say
"They have, however, repeatedly taken from us what we value, and they will continue to do so unless we stand up to them."
Well I can tell you this... Sooner or later the white man will start living by those rules and it won't be the government they will be fighting against.


I ill be hunting with my native buddie Dave this year and not be thinking about all this shit.



Will you guys be hunting by Canadian law? Or Native law?
2 years ago I was offered by one of my Native friends. (Yes friend) That if I took him out we could go get an elk and he would give me half. He was going to apply for a tag through his band office. Well let me say, the day I shoot an Island Rosie is the year I get drawn for the hunt. Like it or not that is the law in this region. My friend was welcome to hunt with me and my regs but I never took him up on his offer to hunt by his.

I may not like all of the rules and regs that govern us "whiteys" But I wish they governed us all and then we could ALL work at making the government listen to the people.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Right. Before we form our opinions we need some hard facts. Right from the horse's mouth.
We need to know "why" they are blockading.

A call(or several) to the Chief is in order.

http://www.bcbiggamehunts.com/pages/contact.html

Now, if they are protesting resident hunters coming up their to shoot their game...that's fine....but if they are complaining that residents are coming up there and shooting their game while they are running a GO business where rich foreigners come up there to shoot "our" moose....then I might not be too compassionate about their griefs. It this is true, then it's no different than selling sockeye while there is no other fishing allowed

If that's the case, then it really is about money and greed:?.

Just need some facts.


SSS

[Shooter]

Now, if they are protesting resident hunters coming up their to shoot their game...that's fine....

SSS

I don't see it as fine. coyotejoe says it himself right here



Besides, this province is HUGE, find another place to hunt :)

So why do they get to dibs their spot? I don't get to dibs mine. They all have trucks and quads and sleds just like the whiteys. If hunting starts to slide near their home like it does to many canadian residents then they have the means to travel for a hunt just like the rest of us. I could understand it in the old days when one would only hunt and harvest off of his pasture land, and it was a 3 day horse back ride to the Post Office. But those days are gone. The Province is HUGE, find another place to hunt.

[PGK]

Right. Before we form our opinions we need some hard facts. Right from the horse's mouth.
We need to know "why" they are blockading.

A call(or several) to the Chief is in order.

http://www.bcbiggamehunts.com/pages/contact.html

Now, if they are protesting resident hunters coming up their to shoot their game...that's fine....but if they are complaining that residents are coming up there and shooting their game while they are running a GO business where rich foreigners come up there to shoot "our" moose....then I might not be too compassionate about their griefs. It this is true, then it's no different than selling sockeye while there is no other fishing allowed

If that's the case, then it really is about money and greed:?.

Just need some facts.


SSS

Amen. It's too bad the bands in this province can't sort their crap out. There are some really great bands to work with, who understand conservation and where they need to stand for the better of everyone, and some bands that just want to play renegade out of some misguided sense of entitlement. Of course, in every band, there are those that want to say 'eff you white man' but I find in my dealings, that's the exception rather than the norm...hopefully we're dealing with a 'legit' cause here...

[cmc destroyer]

First warning gang!!



As are most folk, but turning a healthy debate into a racial slur fest will get yet another thread locked.

It's the Government that perpetuated this scenario, maybe they should be the ones we shit on first???

Well I guess to be MORE clear.. this has absolutely NOTHING to do with race. If everybody in (i.e) Cranbrook were allowed to set up road blocks or hunt unregulated, I would have the same problem. Only difference is, there would be no race card to hide behind. I am merely choked at ANY group of people, no matter the colour, that could get away with this nonsense! As I stated before, I have native friends and that wont change.To call me a racist because I state my opinion without putting up a roadblock is both narrow-minded and
ludicrous.
I appologize if my dismay comes across as offensive to some, but freedom of speech is still a right that is equal to all is it not?

[835]

Shooter
I have a moose draw, and he got a "indian" moose draw.
so i guess a bit of both. I know what you are talking about though. Dave can harvest a rosie under his native alocation and "share" it with me.
To a great extent we both have talked about the ethics of all this and we both agree that it has to change as per all the voices listened to here.
we are all saying the same thing just a different way.
no i do not agree that my friend does not have to buy a tag, no i do not agree with the "indian" description on a LEH application, no i do not agree with the fact that natives do not need a hunter number etc. But it is the only way he can do it Right now, he recieved a draw and he will be the only one shooting. This tag alocation does not get pulled form the "sustanence" tags local natives get.

[dryflyguy57]

1899 and PGK , What line of work are you involved with . I work up there and know for a fact that most Tahltans want work . It is a handful of elders that are being paid to blockade by an American organization . Most Tahltans are out of work since Barrick closed the Eskay Gold Mine in April of last year . You sound like my granola crunching neighbours who want it to be kept pristine so they can go up for a one time canoe trip sometime . Unless you have spent time living there you will never know what the majority living there thinks . Do you have any growth in your area ? When it increases the value of your assets do you try to stop it ? I agree that we cannot let the multis come in and destroy the area but lets hear them out and hold the government to task . Lets all wake up and get some tax base happening before they triple the price of a hunting licence because there is nobody left to invest . This isn't about racism its about some American telling us how to run the province . Phone TNDC (Tahltan Native Devopment Corporation ) in Dease and ask for yourselves .

[Mik]

I called the Iskut First Nation Office to speak to the Chief - Marie Quock, .....she was out of office, all week. The admin lady that answered the phone, stated that, yes, there is a road blockade/closure that the "band" imposed and that "NO HUNTERS WERE ALLOWED IN" and that all hunters were given 24 hrs to vacate the Klappan. Naturally I asked why? the answer...."the government is not putting any restrictions on hunting in that part of the land". So I started asking her,if she could/would, for permission, and if there were any exceptions, and what species if, any, would they prefer we not shoot. She could not,but she gave me a number of who I think is one of the organisers of the blockade. I called him, he was out, however, I did speak to his wife and left my number, hopefully he will call me back. I also made a phone call to the Dease lake RCMP, who confirmed that yes, the blockade was in place,HOWEVER, there was a meeting to take place today at 13:00hrs. Lets wait and see what happens.

[dryflyguy57]

It really is too bad how the government deals with native people. It doesn't please me in the least bit that they throw up blockades, but I have some idea of why they do it. You and I would do the same if we were in their position.

Did you know that the native people around Winnipeg used to be amazing farmers? In fact they outproduced the white farmers and were slowly taking over the agriculture business. Guess what happened. The government, in 1910, passed a law that made it illegal for natives to sell their produce to anyone but the government. At a price the government set. Do you need me to tell you the rest of the story?


Sounds like just that , a story ! As you said "I have some idea why they do it" No facts just your idea . Have you been there before or do you just think you know what its like ?

[PGK]

1899 and PGK , What line of work are you involved with . I work up there and know for a fact that most Tahltans want work . It is a handful of elders that are being paid to blockade by an American organization . Most Tahltans are out of work since Barrick closed the Eskay Gold Mine in April of last year . You sound like my granola crunching neighbours who want it to be kept pristine so they can go up for a one time canoe trip sometime . Unless you have spent time living there you will never know what the majority living there thinks . Do you have any growth in your area ? When it increases the value of your assets do you try to stop it ? I agree that we cannot let the multis come in and destroy the area but lets hear them out and hold the government to task . Lets all wake up and get some tax base happening before they triple the price of a hunting licence because there is nobody left to invest . This isn't about racism its about some American telling us how to run the province . Phone TNDC (Tahltan Native Devopment Corporation ) in Dease and ask for yourselves .

I'll line right up with the granola chewing hippies to chain myself to a goddamn tree if they keep pushing for coalbed methane up there.

Your statement is conflicting with what Mik said he just recieved from the band office. Sounds like the FN are PO'ed with MoE (are we keeping up with the acronyms?) :lol:

My line of work is irrelevant to the discussion. I was merely stating that some groups I have had dealings with have been great, understandable, compromising and more than fair to deal with. Others, not so much. My impression of late is that many FN communities are starting to come around to see that they're not going to get what they want with guns and blockades, but if they actually sit down at the table and realize the need for compromise, shit gets done.

[cmc destroyer]

I called the Iskut First Nation Office to speak to the Chief - Marie Quock, .....she was out of office, all week. The admin lady that answered the phone, stated that, yes, there is a road blockade/closure that the "band" imposed and that "NO HUNTERS WERE ALLOWED IN" and that all hunters were given 24 hrs to vacate the Klappan. Naturally I asked why? the answer...."the government is not putting any restrictions on hunting in that part of the land". So I started asking her,if she could/would, for permission, and if there were any exceptions, and what species if, any, would they prefer we not shoot. She could not,but she gave me a number of who I think is one of the organisers of the blockade. I called him, he was out, however, I did speak to his wife and left my number, hopefully he will call me back. I also made a phone call to the Dease lake RCMP, who confirmed that yes, the blockade was in place,HOWEVER, there was a meeting to take place today at 13:00hrs. Lets wait and see what happens.

"24 hours to vacate"... OR WHAT?? WTH is that?? ...Lol, wow that burns me.

[Steeleco]

I appologize if my dismay comes across as offensive to some, but freedom of speech is still a right that is equal to all is it not?

No need to appologise, my comment was towards all members, not you directly. This topic is a very emotional one for obvious reason and quite often a very healthy debate can get racial fast. At that point the threads get locked and nothing positive ever gets accomplished. I too have friends of native decent, and are some of the most decent people I know. This issue is about one community that just happens to be native. ;-)


Lets wait and see what happens.

Good luck Mik, lets hope they listen to reason. Seems both sides of this debate have issues with how the government handles things. Yet we take it out on each other and not the goofs at the top??

[1899]

Sounds like just that , a story ! As you said "I have some idea why they do it" No facts just your idea . Have you been there before or do you just think you know what its like ?

I can't fully blame you for your ignorance because our education system conveniently fails to teach these aspects of our history. On the other hand, your failure to investigate my claims just shows laziness.

I could give you a lengthy list of things the government has done to put us where we are today, but I doubt you care.

From the Indian Act:



Section 32 (1)

(Sale or Barter of Produce Void without Approval)

A transaction of any kind whereby a band or a member thereof purports to sell, barter, exchange, give or otherwise dispose of cattle or other animals, grain or hay, whether wild or cultivated, or root crops or plants or their products from a reserve in Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Alberta, to a person other than a member of that band, is void unless the superintendent approves the transaction in writing.


Is that "fact" enough for you? It is just one way the government continues to discourage native people from being entrepreneurial.

Did you know that natives are forbidden from selling reserve land? What this means is that they can't get a mortgage against their land to raise capital for business ventures.

How much do you know about residential schools? Are you aware that children were taken from their families without consent? Do you have any first hand experience with native people who have lost their hearing because they were hit in the head with the back of a hatchet when they were 8 years old? If so, how do you respond to such a man telling you how he stuffed toilet paper in his ears to prevent the seepage from staining his pillow, because that would have led to more beatings?

How about with the people who had needles jabbed into their tongues for speaking their own language - I'm talking about little children here. These are just a few examples.

Like I said, I could go on at length.


Please read Night Spirits: The Relocation of the Sayisi Dene. It is a short book and will give you a glimpse of what happened to native people. I have lent my copy out, but PM me if you want to borrow it when I get it back.

We are all here to stay. The only way, imo, that we can get along is if we educate ourselves and bring that knowledge to the table.

[dryflyguy57]

Not sure where I conflict with Mik . Shell is not in the picture lately , I was thinking more of Imperial Metals , Westhawk Resources , etc . Are you a politician ? I asked you three questions and got no answers just a reply . In MY discussion I thought it would be useful to see what those opposed to change and progress (in this particular area )do for a living . I know some lawyers for example that never want to see land claims settled for obvious reasons . A good read on this topic is "Dancing with Dependancy " written by Calvin Helin from Port Simpson " He concurs with your statements about some FN's coming around to change and maybe the realization that there may not always be a budget almost as large as the Armed Forces to use in the future .

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Thanks for straightening out some of my "bent" facts, Mik.
I had the Chief's name wrong:oops:.

The Eagle River website does state that the Iskut Band of the Tahltan First Nation does own the G/O territory.

The current chief's sounds really familiar(Marie Quock). Was this the person who was supporting closing down the G-bear hunt???

SSS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

PGK-The Iskut FN aren't opposed to developement in the area, they just want to make sure they have a big piece of the pie.

http://www.nationtalk.ca/modules/news/article.php?storyid=23715


SSS

[PGK]

I work in fisheries, and without a doubt, if large scale development happened out there, I would be looking at a bunch of new job opportunities. But I'd rather be a broke dumbass than a rich biostitute. Money and 'economic development' are not the things that make my mojo go

[PGK]

PGK-The Iskut FN aren't opposed to developement in the area, they just want to make sure they have a big piece of the pie.

http://www.nationtalk.ca/modules/news/article.php?storyid=23715


SSS

Isn't that fair? Give them their pie, just let us hunt!

Edit: Nothing 'bad' in your link, other than more IPPs :( I'm all for them being a big part of the development process, I just don't want the development to take place. Logictically though, what we're talking about *is* inevitable.

Still not understand why they're blocking the road though...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

They seemd to have changed their tune from a couple of yrs ago:?.

http://www.turtleisland.org/news/mining06.htm

SSS

[dryflyguy57]

Ouch , I think i hit a nerve with you . Try to stay on topic and be nice would you .

[PGK]

Ouch , I think i hit a nerve with you . Try to stay on topic and be nice would you .

Who? Start making sense buddy

[PGK]

HMMMMM indeed there SSS. Lots happening in six that doesn't hit the mainstream, that's for sure!

[Buck]

Well we certainly have some bleeding hearts here.And i would remind some that many natives wanted there children to go to residential school to better them selves.And many have had ample oppurtunity in the entrepenureal world with my tax money.I have been abused you have been abused so suck it up.These road blocks are illegal and should be treated as such.What is it with making the natives martyrs of suffering this stuff happens everyday everywhere.

It is illegal


to interfere with or obstruct a person
licensed or permitted to hunt, guide
or trap while that person is lawfully so
engaged

[1899]

Well we certainly have some bleeding hearts here.And i would remind some that many natives wanted there children to go to residential school to better them selves.



Actually, this is wrong. In the treaties signed in Eastern and Central Canada the Chiefs did ask for schools and education as part of the "deal". The Government promised that schools would be built on the reserves. The Government did not have the money to meet their obligations and made an agreement with the Anglican and Catholic churches. The Government would build some large residential schools and bring in the children from around the counrty to be "educated".

The death rate, as reported by Dr. Peter Bryce, the medical inspector for the Department of Indian Affairs, in Western Canadian residential schools was almost 50%. Across Canada 25-50% of the children died within the first year of "schooling". By 1919 the position of Medical Inspector for the Department of Indian Affairs was abolished - Duncan Campbell Scott didn't like Dr. Bryce's complaints. And by 1920 Residential School was compulsory for all native children.

Buck - bleeding heart? No, fair is fair. Like I quoted earlier, the British Crown acknowledged Aboriginal Title in the Royal Proclamation of 1763. The Crown stated that the ONLY way to transfer title was via a treaty. There have been no treaties with the Tahltan. Keeping thosefacts in mind, the Tahltan still have title to those lands, which means that the BC government has no right to regulate exploration or hunting or anything.

THAT is why we have a big mess here now.

[cmc destroyer]

seems some people wants to make this about the cowboys and indians ..("1899")..
I agree with you Buck... they need to suck it up!
Hell, why arent the Jews getting any compensation or how about the atrocities in Rawanda/Uganda which are way worse than the halocaust.

Where we went wrong was signing treaties in the first place !!! instead complete decimation of the people who's land we decided to encroach upon.

THAT and ONLY that is why we have this problem.

Whether some of the natives were smacked in the head or not in irrelevant.Lets give those guys some money for there "abuse" but their grandkids and great grandkids?? gimme a break!.. They should be ashamed for dragging out the suffering of their ancestors and using it as another cash cow.

Having said that, there is a fine line between expressing ones opinion and racial slurring and the way I see it, there have been no racial slurs uttered on this thread.

[dryflyguy57]

Who? Start making sense buddy


Hey buddy , you don't mind if I call you buddy do you . It was meant for you . Thought you figured that out as you did reply .

[KodiakHntr]

Probably not any racial slurs...Lots of guys talking out of their asses though, with out any actual knowledge of anything.

1899 has it pretty much nailed to the floor....

Think about it along these terms if it helps you out:

You make an agreement with the Royal Bank, a "treaty" if you will, to borrow $250 000 to buy a house, which you say you will pay back over 40 years.

25 years later you decide you don't need to pay it back anymore because times have changed and given enough time you probably would have gotten the house there anyway because you were bigger than the guy who used to own it. Who is right CMC? You, or the bank for holding you to your agreement?

Dont' mean to oversimplify it for you, but it looks like that might be needed.

[1899]

CMC - so, how does that change the fact that the Crown admitted the natives owned the land and that the Crown never got title to it? Is it that hard to understand? Aboriginal title to the land exists. That is just the way it is and if you don't like it then lobby your MLA, MP or join a club that is anti-Aboriginal title.

I guess you also haven't heard of the Reparations Agreement between Israel and West Germany? You know the one where West Germany paid 3 billion marks between 1950's and late 1960's.

The abuse is ongoing to this day. Just because it is hidden and you are not aware of it doesn't mean it ended with someone's grandfather or great grandfather.

The attitude of some of you is astounding. It is the same as if someone came onto your property and started telling you what to do and that your property is no longer yours. How would you feel? That is what has been happening for generations. All you see is "my tax dollars are going to the natives".

Thank you Kodiakhntr for making that comment. I strongly feel that this part of Canada's history should be mandatory study in school. There is too much misinformation going on. We have had (non-natives) the woll pulled over our eyes and all it does is create perpetual conflict.

[cmc destroyer]

point taken 1899...
However, if someone "came onto my property and started tellimg me what to do" I'd like to think one of us would be leaving the property horizontal.

I guess it boils down to the single remaining fact that what they are doing is illegal!!
If THEY dont like whats going on then they should be handling it by going through the proper channels. I dont care if it "falls on deaf ears" or if "they have already tried that"...
What would happen if we road blocked the reserve??
I mean okay,,, tempers subsided, and rational thinking to the forefront.
we need to stop handling these issues with kid gloves.
It still doesnt make it right!!
Period!!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

HMMMMM indeed there SSS. Lots happening in six that doesn't hit the mainstream, that's for sure!


I certainly don't blame them for wanting to keep their people employed and prosperous....but wanting the modern day economic benefits without the other things that come with it seems a little......er....ahhh......simple-minded if you will.

The local FN around here just signed off and partnered with a big golf cours/housing developement(with Greg Norman)....in prime deer winter range:icon_frow. Worst part is that it is/was Crown Land.....not Private....not FN Reserve:-?.

No wonder they are one of the richest Bands in Canada.

......But Stewards of the Land??:?

SSS

[Angel]

It is illegal


to interfere with or obstruct a person
licensed or permitted to hunt, guide
or trap while that person is lawfully so
engaged


I agree with you on this. that pretty much sums up the hunting portion but does that apply to entering an area to hunt? Its illegal to blackade a public road and the RCMP should step in and take appropriate action. If I blockaded 200th street in Langley because traffic was a bitch, I would get my ass kicked and thrown in jail! Are they blockading access to "native land" or "crown land".... I wonder if I can blockade a spot in the bush and shoot whatever I want because I hate the new HST :razz:

[f350ps]

The reason we have a judicial system is for things like this. They will probably say they have no faith in our system in this instance, but they sure have faith in it when they want to sue the government or forest companies. Just imagine that everytime the government treated somebody badly a blockade went up, the whole province would be shut down. K

[Stone Sheep Steve]

and some info from a different perspective.................

http://www.firstnations.de/mining/tahltan.htm

SSS

[HD95]

and some info from a different perspective.................

http://www.firstnations.de/mining/tahltan.htm

SSSExcellent link SSS,after reading through that,one can understand first nations concerns.I believe many of their concerns over industrial activities in pristine stone sheep habitat,should also concern those of us who enjoy northern hunting.I think this might be a good opportunity for the BCWF to liase with first nations to curtail the degradation of prime sheep habitat.

[Gunner]

Unfortunately the prevention of industrial expansion seems to have little to do with the illegal blockading of law abiding resident hunters.I fail to see a correlation.There is a law directed at "interfering with a legal hunt".Will the RCMP be enforcing this law or will they be trying to convince hunters to leave?What do you think. Gunner

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Unfortunately the prevention of industrial expansion seems to have little to do with the illegal blockading of law abiding resident hunters.I fail to see a correlation.There is a law directed at "interfering with a legal hunt".Will the RCMP be enforcing this law or will they be trying to convince hunters to leave?What do you think. Gunner


You're right. This protest seems to be directed only at resident hunters and it is, indeed, interferring with legal hunts.

Reading their list of protests it seems this is how they go about pretty much every protest.

Will be interesting to see of any charges arise.


SSS

[HD95]

Gunner;you're right,there is no correlation.The link referred to gives understanding to the first nations position on the industrial degradation of the northern sheep habitat.I do not agree with illegal blockading of BC resident hunters.RCMP should man up and deal with it.IMO

[Jelvis]

You wanna get a whole car load or two of you people together and go up and fix this mess this coming week-end -- Where and when can u meet --?
One of you can be the spokes person and all will show the person in charge your posts here on a lap top, and show them a thing or two -- who's in -- ?
Jel -- I know only three Taltans personally one was my boss in Kamloops --
P.S. I can't go but would help in gas or diesel 10 buck -- +++ u gitter open

[MadCat]

You wanna get a whole car load or two of you people together and go up and fix this mess this coming week-end -- Where and when can u meet --?
One of you can be the spokes person and all will show the person in charge your posts here on a lap top, and show them a thing or two -- who's in -- ?
Jel -- I know only three Taltans personally one was my boss in Kamloops --
P.S. I can't go but would help in gas or diesel 10 buck -- +++ u gitter open


You know I wonder what the outcome would be if we did do this? Show up with a couple hundered local hunters and show them that we don't agree with what there doing. The only thing that I would be worried about would be a gun fight, I think that it's BS what their doing but I'm not willing to die to prove it. But it seems that sometimes fighting back is the only way to stop something.

[Gunner]

You wanna get a whole car load or two of you people together and go up and fix this mess this coming week-end -- Where and when can u meet --?
One of you can be the spokes person and all will show the person in charge your posts here on a lap top, and show them a thing or two -- who's in -- ?
Jel -- I know only three Taltans personally one was my boss in Kamloops --
P.S. I can't go but would help in gas or diesel 10 buck -- +++ u gitter openI'm not suprised that you can't make it Jelvis!:wink: Gunner

[1899]

I had a lengthy discussion with a representative of the Tahltan people.

She was shocked at how nasty some of the posts here have been (she looked up the thread while I was talking to her). She was speechless. I asked for one of their representatives to post here so that we can have a civil and informed discussion. She was not authorized to do so, but someone should be in touch with me soon and I will gladly post the details when I am permitted to do so.

Please, we can disagree and be civil at the same time. Respect is a two way street.

[Jelvis]

Prior commitment to help a friend-a-mine and say what you mean and mean what you say, dependability.
Gotta part time job lately and man it's hard heavy work, with my combat training and body building as well as hunting and tossin the ball -
I don't have a beef with natives, I'm in awe of some, man and woman.
Elvis was Cherokee, ok. I know some in Kamloops and lower mainland and Atchelitz, Musqueam, Lilwat, Sqway, Cheam, Carriers, Shuswap, Oknaggin, Thompson, Cultus and more some ladies who barrel race and hunt, some guys that'll ride bramahs, bull rider's.
allz good in love and war -- Taltan too -- hey paige hey J. --
Jel -- now git up thar and fix this mess this weekend --

[Bowtime]

I have hunted up there a few times, Spring grizz and caribou. From what I have seen first hand is that the locals from Iskut hunt there in early august for caribou and moose. They do very well because they are in there before before it is opened August 15 to all residents. I have also seen them hunting moose in there in the spring both times I have gone for grizz. Let me just say I have "No problem with Native hunting rights". But I do not think it is good wildlife management to shoot pregnant cows in the spring! Also, the resident hunters will only kill so many moose. They hunt the grade on Quads, thats it. They can't do that much damage to the moose population.

[burger]

I can't fully blame you for your ignorance because our education system conveniently fails to teach these aspects of our history. On the other hand, your failure to investigate my claims just shows laziness.

I could give you a lengthy list of things the government has done to put us where we are today, but I doubt you care.

From the Indian Act:



[/indent]Is that "fact" enough for you? It is just one way the government continues to discourage native people from being entrepreneurial.

Did you know that natives are forbidden from selling reserve land? What this means is that they can't get a mortgage against their land to raise capital for business ventures.

How much do you know about residential schools? Are you aware that children were taken from their families without consent? Do you have any first hand experience with native people who have lost their hearing because they were hit in the head with the back of a hatchet when they were 8 years old? If so, how do you respond to such a man telling you how he stuffed toilet paper in his ears to prevent the seepage from staining his pillow, because that would have led to more beatings?

How about with the people who had needles jabbed into their tongues for speaking their own language - I'm talking about little children here. These are just a few examples.

Like I said, I could go on at length.


Please read Night Spirits: The Relocation of the Sayisi Dene. It is a short book and will give you a glimpse of what happened to native people. I have lent my copy out, but PM me if you want to borrow it when I get it back.

We are all here to stay. The only way, imo, that we can get along is if we educate ourselves and bring that knowledge to the table.



This is never going to happen. There will never be enough money given, enough land returned, enough rights given back. Our forefathers have created a mess that will never be reversed. In reality the only way to really give the first nations what they want would be for all of us to leave. REALLY. From now until our offspring finally say enough is enough we will be giving a large economic boost to the first nations. The reality to this whole situation is that we have now given the OK for this country to be run by two governments controlling the same piece of land with the same natural resources at the same time. How will that work? "IT NEVER WILL". Anybody who tells you that this is the best course of action for the whole country(native and non-native) is naive. Eventually there will be a revolt as the masses will finally have had enough. Some will say "once we give them enough land it will all be okay" but hey that will never happen. Once they get a large piece of the pie, the first nations will then want more. Our society and theirs is in todays culture all about greed, money,power.

With the way the world works today the only way "our" country will ever be a cohesive unit is when we (native and non native) realize that we need a single govt running the show. No not a whitey only government but a govt that has rules we all adhere to. Assimilation by both sides is the only way to end these BS debates

[Jelvis]

What about the french and english, mr got the answer to one thing ?
the separatists remember ? Quebeck and the rest of canucksville hah
let's hear it -- Ingleesh and frenches
Jel -- more than just one thing to change lol - Bon Jour Louis - fries with that burger ?

[burger]

What about the french and english, mr got the answer to one thing ?
the separatists remember ? Quebeck and the rest of canucksville hah
let's hear it -- Ingleesh and frenches
Jel -- more than just one thing to change lol - Bon Jour Louis - fries with that burger ?


HUH???

I wil try here. English and french? We are the whitley govt I am speaking about.

Can you here it Jel "Hey Jel come here and drink two more ounces of me. I have undertones of oak and peat" its calling YOU!!! Run to it, surely it understands you.

Oh and its OOH rings not fries..

[Jelvis]

I'll ask two questions about law and regulations and see what u come up with
- if I had a status card, wood I pay taxes purchasing liquor on a rez
- and iz there a BC government liquor outlet on the KIB ?
Jel -- iz there BC liquor outlets on rez'z. See what you can come up with ?

[burger]

I'll ask two questions about law and regulations and see what u come up with
- if I had a status card, wood I pay taxes purchasing liquor on a rez
- and iz there a BC government liquor outlet on the KIB ?
Jel -- iz there BC liquor outlets on rez'z. See what you can come up with ?

I really doubt that there would be government regulated liquor outlets on any reserves. The three that I worked on had no liquor outlets to speak of. I think that with the past issue alcohalism has had on the first nation peoples that it would be percieved as a poor judgement call. Now on the flipside our illustrious government has crapped the bed many times so there is the potential for Govt run liqour outlets especially in the more remote locations. One store for all services. As to paying taxes I would think you would be exempt.

Lastly what do these questions have to do with anything previously written on this topic?

[Jelvis]

Can't you google it ? research it and see what you come up with
put in search -- BC gov liquor outlet on Indian reserve ? Taxes ?
something like that and see what comes up ? if you don't mind.
jP thank you

[Mik]

I had a lengthy discussion with a representative of the Tahltan people.

She was shocked at how nasty some of the posts here have been (she looked up the thread while I was talking to her). She was speechless. I asked for one of their representatives to post here so that we can have a civil and informed discussion. She was not authorized to do so, but someone should be in touch with me soon and I will gladly post the details when I am permitted to do so.

Please, we can disagree and be civil at the same time. Respect is a two way street.
Thats funny, cause I have LEH's for that area and have not yet spoke to the "representative"......lets think about the other threads that had to do with people not filling there LEH TAGS, who gets the allotments now????????...ohh where is this going??????

[Mik]

Unfortunately the prevention of industrial expansion seems to have little to do with the illegal blockading of law abiding resident hunters.I fail to see a correlation.There is a law directed at "interfering with a legal hunt".Will the RCMP be enforcing this law or will they be trying to convince hunters to leave?What do you think. Gunner

I know, first hand, they said, do not come!!! Anybody know of a good spot to go around Ft.Nelson? I guess its time to explore, no sense in wasting my vacation sitting around waiting for something to happen....any input would be greatly appreciated.

[burger]

Can't you google it ? research it and see what you come up with
put in search -- BC gov liquor outlet on Indian reserve ? Taxes ?
something like that and see what comes up ? if you don't mind.
jP thank you


I'm not one of your minions Jel.Homie dont play dat!!

You still did not answer my question. What has this to do with the topic at hand other than derail the discussion?

[PGK]

Jelvis, shut up. Start making some goddam sense.

Do we have a confirmed reason as to why the blockade is up? Or are we still guessing?

[Mik]

Jelvis, shut up. Start making some goddam sense.

Do we have a confirmed reason as to why the blockade is up? Or are we still guessing?
Yes, response to this is on page 6, i called personally.

[Gateholio]

Closed for now....