Stamp River Springs

[IronNoggin]

A Plea of sorts here Folks:

The Stamp Springs are in SERIOUS trouble! At this point, there are less than 1,500 counted into the system. That number is CRITICALLY low! Scary in fact!

And while we all hope beyond hope there will be some miraculous late surge, all indications suggest that ain't likely to happen.

And yes, The Dino has left retention of the few that remain open for the recreational community in the river, this is being done for purely political reasons! They well understand the dire condition the run is in, and are running as hard as they can to cover their asses in this regard. By leaving the bonking of springs open, they can now point directly at us and state that we were very much part of the problem!

Time for us to wake up and realize we are being played! Time for us to recognize that should we kill any more, we are directly contributing to the problem beyond what we already have. Time for us to Man-Up and say: Just Don't Do It! And time for us to spread the word that even if The Dino cannot admit to his grevious mistake, that we can see the error of this foolish opening, and that we care enough to leave them alone! Time for us to honor the fish that we claim to respect and admire so much, and allow the few that do remain to carry their loads to the spawning gravels as they should!

I've been chatting up a LOT of folks on the flow these days. The vast majority have NO idea of just how bad things are regarding the springs, and I have seen many large dead spawners lying on the beach as a consequence. Most I have chatted to express regret over killing the ones they have once they do understand. My plea to you all is to Please leave them be, and to help get the word out to others to do the same!

Nog - Very Worried we are witnessing the demise of this once Great Run! :icon_frow

[Dirty]

Are these native fish or a stocked run?

[f350ps]

Are these the Robertson Cr. hatchery fish that are in trouble? K

[PGK]

Like I said before, 1500 is lots compared to what we have left in some upper fraser streams, thanks to you ocean guys. You bonked em buddy. Noone to blame but yourself.

[Wood butcher]

Did DFO not state that there was a surplus of 10000 peices, Just before they had the commercial opening for them in the sound.

Same old BS. It's all very depressing.

[THE SWEDE]

Like I said before, 1500 is lots compared to what we have left in some upper fraser streams, thanks to you ocean guys. You bonked em buddy. Noone to blame but yourself.

Your givin Nog a hard time when you bragged about killin buckets of fish..Your just as guilty.If you think your post secondary education gives you the right to be a know it all your wrong..Academia is what is ruining these fisheries..Science works in perfect conditions..Nature aint perfect.Common sense is whats lacking..and its quiet obvious.

I see they upadated the Pink return from 13 million to 17 Million so they opened up a commercial fishery..Smart really smart.As if the Thompson Coho and Steelhead werent in enough trouble..A bunch of "Know it alls" With letters behind they're names making decisions based on science.LOL Give me a break

[000buck]

nitnat run is small for this time of year as well hoping to see alot more fish next week......

[IronNoggin]

Like I said before, 1500 is lots compared to what we have left in some upper fraser streams, thanks to you ocean guys. You bonked em buddy. Noone to blame but yourself.

And just like I suggested on FlyBC as your somewhat offensive post was being removed:
Do some homework on what happened here BEFORE you spout off and firmly convince everyone you are indeed a Fool.
Oh, and Lose The 'Tude dude! :roll:

The fish in question are a mixed stock of wild fish and Robertson Creek Hatchery fish. The problem was initiated when DFO, despite to that point sticking with a depressed run projection (and actually beginning to impose "conservation concern" initiatives) became aware of an unrelated up-Island run that came in both earlier than predicted, and in larger numbers than forecast. Going with "gut instinct" over science proved once again to be disastrous! They increased the run projection significantly enough to unleash seine, gillnet and FN fishing operations on the "early" run that was bottled up at the mouth of the river due to extreme low and warm water conditions. Multiple openings ensured these fish were pretty well all removed. The "meat" sold for a buck fifty a pound - most destined for cat food. The roe sold for much higher, ensuring Jimmy's seiners targeted chiefly on the females. There has been extremely little in the way of other fish coming in to fill the void this left. :icon_frow

An average year used to see 50 to 75 THOUSAND as an escapement. This year's target (before the increased projection) requires an additional 32 THOUSAND to be realized. 1,500 represents basically a complete year class failure. This due to DFO relying on an already proven unreliable run projection process, and tossing the Precautionary Principle and their Mandate out the window in favor of their well connected commercial Buddies. At the direct expense of the resource. :evil:

And yes, we in the recreational sector did have an impact. And we should feel remorse for that, regardless of how small the comparative footprint might be. And now, some of us are attempting to create a small positive influence by informing OUR sector (the only one still legally fishing btw) that any further mortalities at this juncture and at our hands should be painfully avoided!

So, if you are planning to come and fish here, please ENJOY the bounty of bright and fiesty coho, and leave the springs to do what Ma Nature intended! It VERY much is the Right Thing To Do!

Cheers,
Nog

[fuzzybiscuit]

Originally Posted by PGK http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=516746#post516746)
Like I said before, 1500 is lots compared to what we have left in some upper fraser streams, thanks to you ocean guys. You bonked em buddy. Noone to blame but yourself.


Are the other 1303 post that you made as uninformed as this one?:roll: Time to maybe take a break on the keyboard and do some reading! There is a lot more to the demise of the chinook runs of the upper Fraser streams than the few that are caught legally by sporty's.


IronNoggin, thanks for the information. Chinook all over the island are having a tough go of it and could use all the help that they can get.

Fuzzy

[green machine]

its the same every were, when the stocks are up lets take more when there down we will just take the limit. in some systems it can be done but others it can't. its the dfo's job to regulate it properly and do things that help. we have seen the cowichan river springs go down hill for some time now. then 2 years ago the cowichan hatery lets pink salmon go in cow bay that have no hope of spawning because they are not native to the river and the river is to warm for them. now please don't get me wrong i am not bashing the cowichan hatery. i know they do alot of good for the river but would it not have made more sense to rear some springs and coho and release them. so they are stocking the river with native fish.

[Tikka270wsm]

Green Machine.

I've also seen the Cowichan River springs numbers plummet throughout the last decade. Not to turn this thread away from the Stamp River but the Cowichan was world famous for the size and number of springs and coho for years. Now, there is absolutely no retention for Chinook (even jacks,below 50 cm) There are very few Chinook in the system now and even though there are several groups that most locals point their fingers at being the culprits for the reason, there has not been much in the way of an explanation why the runs are so low.

I really enjoy fishing the Stamp River for Springs, Coho and Steelhead. I hope that one day I can take my future children there to enjoy it as well.

IMHO- They need to shut it down for two full cycles like they did with the coho a few years ago to get the numbers back up. It seemed to work for the coho, maybe it would work for the springs.

[IronNoggin]

1836 SPRINGS and Counting

Latest data from Somass River Escapement Bulletin
Observations to Sept 20, 2009

OBSERVATIONS:
Stamp falls counting facility has been operational since Sept 3. During the past 5 days chinook adult numbers have ranged from 65 to 176. Coho adults have ranged from 1471 to 2071 and Sockeye adults
have ranged from 723 to 1571.

Total escapement to Sept 20 is ~~~1,836 Chinook~~~~, 22,374 Coho and 184,139 Sockeye. Sockeye escapement to Sproat Lake is estimated at 144,742 adults up to Sept 8. No additional data is available at present.

Stamp Falls counting operation has been closed for short periods during equipment repairs but otherwise has been fully operational.

River flows are relatively low for this time of year. River temperature is still 16-17C.

The escapement goal is 33,000.

We AIN"T gonna see it! :-(

[PGK]

Got your arse pounded on the real fishing forum so you run here for solace? Take a hike nog.

Forgive us for not feeling compassion on your behalf considering your profession and your unbelievable hipocrisy. SHAM.

http://forum.flybc.ca/index.php?showtopic=19142&st=0

[IronNoggin]

Got your arse pounded on the real fishing forum so you run here for solace? Take a hike nog.
http://forum.flybc.ca/index.php?showtopic=19142&st=0

Ass Pounded puppy?? LOL! :lol:
Enjoy a GOOD read Folks! Since he was so willing to post the link, methinks you might all want to see just what he is driveling on about...

Taking anyone to task regarding a serious conservation matter, regardless of their "supposed" (:roll:) background is the act of someone with real unrelated problems. Might be worth a little introspection here...

As suggested before pup, Lose The Tude! ;-)

Nog

[Johnnybear]

Got your arse pounded on the real fishing forum so you run here for solace? Take a hike nog.

Forgive us for not feeling compassion on your behalf considering your profession and your unbelievable hipocrisy. SHAM.

http://forum.flybc.ca/index.php?showtopic=19142&st=0


I just read that whole thread in the link you posted.

What is your problem with someone posting real information for the general public to read? What is wrong with having conservation concerns? How is this member being a hipocrite? How are his posts a SHAM or not genuine?

At least the guy is trying to do something through discussion and information. Is this how you treat all new members to this site by telling them to get lost etc.? Great welcome PGK:icon_frow:rolleyes:.

Welcome aboard IronNoggin. I look forward to seeing more posts from you.

[835]

PKG
I read you thread and have nothing good to say bud.You really are out to lunch. What about the mouth of the fraser what do you think is happening there with all the polution. there is way too many factors at work here.
and you are acting like a kid. This guy is just trying to bring to bare a problem that has many causes. I commercial fished for 10 years, worked marine reaserch for 5 and guided 7 and sportfished all my life. stop focusing on the guy who is trying to let us know something is wrong

[NaStY]

Sorry guys but you really need to stop the personal attacks and keep this a debate about the original topic or we will have to lock it..

[IronNoggin]

Sorry guys but you really need to stop the personal attacks and keep this a debate about the original topic or we will have to lock it..

Agreed. I shouldn't have bit, but there are times I simply cannot help myself, and especially when I am a target for an uninformed source.

From one Moderator to another, I hereby note I will no longer respond to being baited on this site. :cool:

Cheers,
Nog

[goatdancer]

Just one more reason for bait ban............

[Neckshot]

This is grim. I drove through Alberni last week and there is a bunch of nets bunched up in the river by the silver bridge (you can see the corks all tangled together). Looks like they have been abandoned. I gotta think these nets still trap fish even though they are not tended too. Iron are the Sockeye numbers good or bad for the Stamp at 144k fish?
I also live close to the Cowichan and have seen that river slowly dwindle away to nothing. I have been to meeting after meeting about the state of the river yet nothing ever seems to get done.

[fuzzybiscuit]

Fuzzy, seeing all the other chickens attacking the weekest one, came in for his turn and a peck...


Originally posted by PGK:

"Forgive us for not feeling compassion on your behalf considering your profession and your unbelievable hipocrisy. SHAM."

Who is this "us"? It doesn't seem to be the people on this site. One must then assume that you mean "us" as in yourself and the other person sitting next to you reading these posts....

Gone upstairs to visit your Mom, have ya? Ah.:-(


...yup. Tasted like chicken.:smile:

-Fuzzy

[spreerider]

This is grim. I drove through Alberni last week and there is a bunch of nets bunched up in the river by the silver bridge (you can see the corks all tangled together).

we prefer to call it the orange bridge still, as we Port Albernians are 15 years behind the times :)

[IronNoggin]

...Iron are the Sockeye numbers good or bad for the Stamp at 144k fish?

Historical escapements ran from 300 to better than 500 Thousand.
That said, the sockeye run here was decimated just a few years ago. This is the first sign that perhaps they might have a chance at rebuilding...

Reprinted from another Forum (with permission of course):

Summer Steel's response to the query: Maybe someone can explain how they got an increase indicator for 57000 Chinooks from 47000 and how we only have less than 2000 now?

Easy, it's called PFS, political fish science. At 47,000, there is simply no commercial TAC under this years plan to place more naturally spawning fish on the grounds. Since DFO can't go against their own numbers, they need to find a way to increase the run size, at least on paper, to justify an opening. This is done by taking scale samples from the commercial openings in Nootka Sound. Amazingly, they find that there are significantly more Conuma chinook than first thought, ergo there MUST be more Somass chinook as well. Plus the scale samples from DEAD Somass fish they have just harvested MUST mean the run is bigger than they first said it was. Sounds like solid science to up the return by 10,000 http://fishbcforum.com/public/style_emoticons/default/wet-trout.gif , coincidentely, just enough to allow a 7000 piece commercial harvest. This, together with the FN "food" & economic opportunity fisheries taking at least another 7000 fish, ( most likely more due to some slick counting methods at the processors ), leads to the early part of the return being devastated. Why try so hard to justify a commercial opening?? Follow the money. The fishing industry is comprised of three components, harvest, process, & sale. Any person involved in just one of these components can no longer make a living doing it. Ask IronNoggin how much any of the area G trollers made this year, how many of them need a second job just to make ends meet nowadays. Talk to a seasonal fish plant worker & see how their retirement package is shaping up, or go see a part time grocery clerk & ask them if they worked more than 20 hours this week. Now, find the guy who has his fingers in all three pies. He is getting a cut from every part of the business, so life is good for him.The only thing he needs is for there to be enough fish to justify the openings. Whether those fish exist or not is besides the point, as long as there can be some harvest, there will be money to be made. Now, you can bet your last salmon that these decisions are coming from back east. The lobbyists are in place to remind the Gov. officials of where their campaign funds came from & what is expected in return.Until this entire backroom process is dragged out into the light, perhaps under a Judicial review, nothing is going to change. Lets face it, no reasonable people would make the types of decisions we are seeing now unless there was another agenda in play. Managing a fishery isn't rocket science. You look at the best available science, wait until the fish actually show up, put numbers on the spawning grounds FIRST, & always, always err on the side of the fish. It can't possibly be continuously done so poorly year after year without anyone ever losing their jobs unless there was something else at work.

Now if we do the math, that is roughly 14,000 fish gone, so where are the other 43,000 fish?? ( That is supposing that those 10,000 "extra" fish existed in the first place ) Well, if you listen to our friends at DFO, 31,000 fish have been caught by sport anglers so far this year on the WCVI. While that number may indeed be somewhat accurate, what it fails to mention is, that is the TOTAL chinook catch so far this year, NOT the Somass fish we are talking about here. That number includes ALL the chinook caught from May until present, with most of those being offshore southbound fish ( Thanks Yanks ) The Somass chinook don't start showing up inshore in any numbers in Barclay Sound until August. I highly doubt the sports fishery with its one over one under rule made that much of an impact on these fish. So, that begs the questions: Where are they? Where did they go? Are they still coming? Were they ever there? Only time will give us some of the answers, lets just hope they are the answers we are looking for.

One last note, as others have already expressed here, please try not to harvest any chinooks right now, especially the big ones. I know it is open & it's legal, but please, if you feel you absolutely HAVE to kill one, please consider taking one of the many, many 3-6lb jacks that are everywhere right now. These fish are rather easy to catch with roe & IMHO are much better eating than the big ones anyways.

MOST Excellent synopsis of this year's situation I've seen yet.

Cheers,
Nog

[Josethesiningfish]

Greed!Greed! greed! See everyone puff their chest when they say "I am an angler," but are they really??? A true angler understands the river where he fishes and respects it, respects it!!! He/she learns to love the ecosystem that is lay for him to have fun and to feed him/herself from it. If we decide to let more salmon be caught and slaughtered between the political games of Buro-BC and ignorance and stubbornness from fishermen then I am afraid we will lament it for a long long time. A man from the earth ones said: "take only what you need to survive and leave the rest to blush and thrive in this world of which you are its guardian... the earth does not belong to you, rather you belong to the earth, and when you die, you too shall become part of her..."

Thank you IronNoggin for standing up for what you believe in and for trying to educate some of us who sometimes do not get it right until is too late.

[Browningmirage]

Your givin Nog a hard time when you bragged about killin buckets of fish..Your just as guilty.If you think your post secondary education gives you the right to be a know it all your wrong..Academia is what is ruining these fisheries..Science works in perfect conditions..Nature aint perfect.Common sense is whats lacking..and its quiet obvious.

I see they upadated the Pink return from 13 million to 17 Million so they opened up a commercial fishery..Smart really smart.As if the Thompson Coho and Steelhead werent in enough trouble..A bunch of "Know it alls" With letters behind they're names making decisions based on science.LOL Give me a break

I think Politics is more to blame than academia.

[IronNoggin]

Latest OBSERVATIONS: ONLY 2568 Springs counted
During the past 7 days at Stamp Falls Chinook adult numbers have ranged from 56 to 142. Coho adults have ranged from 1391 to 2136 and Sockeye adults have ranged from 16 to 242.
Total escapement to Sept 27 is 2,568 Chinook, 34,785 Coho and 184,770 Sockeye.
Sockeye escapement to Sproat Lake is estimated at 144,742 adults up to Sept 8. No additional data is available at present.
Stamp Falls counting operation has been fully operational.
River flows are still relatively low for this time of year. It should be noted that more chinook migrated on
days of slightly higher flows. River temperature is still relatively warm at 16C.

[Johnnybear]

Thanks for the update IronNoggin.

[IronNoggin]

Finally! Tonight or tomorrow eve the Stamp River will close for the retention of springs. There will also be area closures to ensure the few that make are left alone.

Too Little, Too Late IMHO. But at least they finally woke up to the situation! :frown:

Cheers,
Nog

[IronNoggin]

RECREATIONAL - Salmon, RECREATIONAL - Fin Fish (Other than Salmon)

Fishery Notice - Fisheries and Oceans Canada Subject: FN0787-RECREATIONAL - Salmon: Somass Chinook Recreational Closure and increase in Coho daily limit

Chinook escapement to the Somass and Stamp Rivers is substantially below the 2009 goal and management action is required to protect Somass chinook to meet hatchery brood stock and spawning requirements. In consultation with Area 23 Sport Fishing Advisory Committee advisors and local First Nations, it was agreed that current fishing pressure on chinook salmon holding in the rivers should be reduced. Coho escapement to the Somass River is stronger than pre-season expectations, providing an opportunity for increased recreational access. Effective immediately to 23:59 hours October 31, 2009 the following will take place for chinook salmon: - Chinook non-retention will be in effect in the non-tidal portion of the Somass River and in the Stamp River, - The tidal portion of the Somass River will close to recreational fin fishing as described below: That portion of the Somass River from the tidal boundary at Paper Mill Dam seaward to a line commencing at a boundary sign in upper Alberni Harbour situated at 49°14.19 north latitude and 124°50.23 west longitude then through the southern most point of Hoik Island then to the flashing green light at the mouth of the Somass River then due east to a boundary sign on the opposite shore. Effective immediately to 23:59 hours December 31, 2009 the daily limit for coho salmon in the open areas of the Stamp and Somass Rivers will increase from two (2) to four (4) per day, either hatchery marked or unmarked.

[IronNoggin]

8138 and counting

Somass River Escapement Bulletin
Observations to Oct 13, 2009

OBSERVATIONS: During the past 9 days at Stamp Falls Chinook adult numbers have ranged from 154 to 677. Coho adults have ranged from 357 to 2017 and Sockeye adults have ranged from 1 to 27. Total escapement is ~~~8,138 Chinook~~~~, 56,336 Coho and 185,488 Sockeye. Sockeye escapement to Sproat Lake is estimated at 144,742 adults up to Sept 8. Additional data is available but requires some vetting.
Stamp Falls counting operation has been fully operational.
River flows have increased over the past few days and have contributed to the improved chinook migration. River temperature is currently unknown.

And with that, hatchery requirements are close to being met. No wild spawn of course. And rumor has it The Dino is suggesting all is as it should be... :sad:

To those MORONS that continue to whack springs in this system, a Warning. We ARE watching, and we won't be calling it in (and You know EXACTLY what I mean!) :evil:

Nog

[Neckshot]

To those MORONS that continue to whack springs in this system, a Warning. We ARE watching, and we won't be calling it in (and You know EXACTLY what I mean!)

If you need any help Noggin let me know. There was someone in a Duncan restaurant on the weekend offering the workers there a 25 lb spring for $20.00. It was freshly "caught". Anyway stuff like that makes me sick. With regards tot he update much appreciated. Hopefully this slug of rain will push more fish into the system.

[Salty]

Any updates - new fish still showing?

[IronNoggin]

Any updates - new fish still showing?

Somass River Escapement Observations to Oct 18 2009:

During the past 5 days at Stamp Falls Chinook adult numbers have ranged from 0 to 529. Coho adults have ranged from 0 to 1051 and Sockeye adults have ranged from 0 to 396. Total escapement is 9,060 Chinook, 58,510 Coho and 186,183 Sockeye. Sockeye escapement to Sproat Lake is estimated at 144,742 adults up to Sept 8. Additional data is available but requires some vetting.
Stamp Falls was fully operational on Oct 14/15 but was reduced to 2 hours counting on Oct 16 and was closed due to high flows and poor visibility on Oct 17/18. It is back in full operation for Oct 19.
River flows have increased substantially over the past few days and are now moderately high. River temperature is now 13 Celsius.