Stymied For Now! Re: Region 5 Allocation

[Jagermeister]

From yesterdays Quesnel Cariboo Observer:

http://www.quesnelobserver.com/portals/images/back.gif (http://www.quesnelobserver.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=27&cat=23&more=)http://www.quesnelobserver.com/portals/images/send.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:makeSendtofriend();)http://www.quesnelobserver.com/portals/images/feedback.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:makeFeedback();)


Hunting changes nixed

(http://www.quesnelobserver.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=27&cat=23&id=&more=)




Dec 28 2005 Cariboo hunters are feeling relieved after proposed changes in deer hunting regulations was left off the agenda at a meeting of the Cariboo Wildlife Advisory Committee on Dec. 15.
The hunters oppose a proposal by the Cariboo Chilcotin Guide Outfitters Association to reduce the current two bucks bag limit to one mule deer buck as well as increasing hunting restrictions in the Cariboo.
Wilf Pfleiderer, president of the Quesnel Rod and Gun Club, was pleased.
“It indicates that it’s a dead issue for now,” Pfleiderer said.
Stewart Fraser, Cariboo Chilcotin Guide Outfitters president, said his organization won’t give up the fight to reduce mule deer bag limits.
“There was no point in bringing it up (at the meeting) because of all the accusations made at us,” Fraser said. “There was no point in doing it unless we wanted to get in a debate.”





I wonder what accusatons Stewart Fraser is referring to? My guess is that the CCGOA just want to ram something like this through without discussion (debate) because it's so totally oriented in their favour.

I would like to thank those who represented us, the resident hunters, at these meetings and for bringing issues of this nature forward. Also, I'm thankful for this forum as it gets the information out and allows for good dialogue pertinent to the issues. :grin:

[Marc]

You forgot to mention the BCWF who forwarded me the information so I could post it so all the people on this site knew what was going on. A website is only as usefull as the information being presented. I'd like to personaly thank the member who sent me the info.

Marc.

[Jagermeister]

Right on Marc! To that individual or those, whichever the case may be, we are indebted and we owe much thanks.

[Steeleco]

I too would like to thank the more than 50 members here that sent me their info so i could forward it to the BCWF Reg 5 president. All our names were added to the petition that was going around in the region.

FWIW I asked for info from the GOABC, via the website as kindly suggested by Mooseman so as to get both sides of the debate. To date I still have no responce from this group. I feel badly for the hardworking honest members of this group that may not be getting their fair shake!!!

[boonerbuck]

Good news!!

[bigwhiteys]

Question...

The Guide Outfitters usually have conservation in mind when decisions like this are made... After all... they make MONEY by harvesting these animals.

Their livelyhood depends on it... Being raised by a family who were in fact very prominent outfitters in Northern BC I can tell you there are two sides to this coin. I heard my Grandpa and Dad talk about residents all the time...

Most outfitters are concerned with harvesting "Trophy" quality animals... "Trophy" quality animals are harder and harder to come by when you have trigger happy resident hunters continually dumping the first "legal" buck/bull/ram they see. And usually these animals are NOT in their prime nor past it.

And you know as well as I know that this happens all to often. The outfitters probably see this as being an issue for the deer population in your area in a few years.

If you're a meat hunter then you need to shoot them young thats fine I have no issues there... But if you're a trophy hunter then have the patience and perseverence to really bag a nice TROPHY. Not some dinky little 4 point.

And do you really need 2 in the same year?

Where I hunt we can only take one muley every 2 years. I am okay with that. Big rutty mule deer bucks taste like shit anyways.

Not trying to start a war... just adding another point of view. The outfitters aren't all greedy *******s. Their livelyhood depends on strong stocks of trophy game. Obviously they feel like this could be threatened.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[sealevel]

So bigwhitey how many people really make there living from one guiding terratory likely not very many . In the end the guide and outfitter likely pays little or no taxes so the only gain is to the hunter who get shown a trophy to shoot. Where as the ress hunter who pays huge taxes just to live in this fine prov. has less hunting privelage than a ameracan hunter. A ress hunter who has drove a 1000and k on his holliday from work dosnot have the time to wait for a huge trophy. His trophy and yours may be a lot different.

[bigwhiteys]

Hi Sealevel,



So bigwhitey how many people really make there living from one guiding terratory likely not very many


My Grandfather did it for nearly 40 years. One territory near Muncho Lake BC. But I do understand your point. Many outfitters nowadays are running several areas and getting larger quotas.


Where as the ress hunter who pays huge taxes just to live in this fine prov. has less hunting privelage than a ameracan hunter.

Now this statement I don't really agree with. As residents of this fine province yes we DO pay our share of taxes... but that's to LIVE. As far as having LESS privelage to the American hunter...

Come on man! look around you! We LIVE as RESIDENTS in one of the most AWESOME hunting areas in the world! We don't have to pay thousands of USD on guided hunts. We can enjoy hunting here pretty much all year round if you are mobile. And for a mere FRACTION of the cost anyone else has to pay. I think we have it pretty good.



A ress hunter who has drove a 1000and k on his holliday from work dosnot have the time to wait for a huge trophy. His trophy and yours may be a lot different.


See this is what I am talking about. If you dont have the patience to wait for a big trophy then likely you will never ever have the chance to see or shoot one in your life.

I have gone home from trips (1300k one way) empty handed because I didn't come across the buck I wanted. I am selective and that's the outcome of the way I was brought up about hunting. If I need the meat I'll shoot a meat animal. If I am hunting horns, I hunt horns and if that means not shooting something until I find the horns I want then I'll wait... I think it's disciplined hunting. (and I know I am not the only one who hunts this way)

Although our viewpoints on this issue may be very different, I really don't want to stir the pot here. I am new to the forum I understand that I am just sharing a different point of view. This thread is for dialouge.

Happy Hunting
Carl

[Mooseman]

So bigwhitey how many people really make there living from one guiding terratory likely not very many . In the end the guide and outfitter likely pays little or no taxes so the only gain is to the hunter who get shown a trophy to shoot. Where as the ress hunter who pays huge taxes just to live in this fine prov. has less hunting privelage than a ameracan hunter. A ress hunter who has drove a 1000and k on his holliday from work dosnot have the time to wait for a huge trophy. His trophy and yours may be a lot different.

Guide Outfitters are residents usually small family businesses and we have to pay the same taxes as any other self employed person in BC. And almost all the money we generate goes back in to the BC economy. Unlike other foreign owned corporations that use our trees, oil, gas, water or power to generate revenue. ;-)

[Marc]

This is where the problem lies with the eyes of the public. "Trophy hunts" You can't eat antlers. I love wild game and I'd sooner fill my freezer with wild game then pork and beef. I've hunted in Region 5 and there is no shortage of deer. If there were a shortage then they wouldn't have placed a doe draw in that region.

I spent $750.00 dollars for my 10 day trip this year to region 5,6,7 and came home with a small two point and a bear. Probably one of the best eating deer I've ever had. I saw 3 bucks and 17 doe and fawns that day in region 5. Doesn't sound like there is any shortage to me. If I could have managed another deer in region 7 or 6 I would have taken it and a moose to boot. If it was such a big conservation concern then why do you suspect that most resident hunters where opposed to the idea? This concerns and affects resident hunters more then someone from out of Canada.

OK I'm stopping here because the more I write the angrier I'm getting.

[bigwhiteys]

Hi Marc,



This is where the problem lies with the eyes of the public. "Trophy hunts" You can't eat antlers. I love wild game and I'd sooner fill my freezer with wild game then pork and beef. I've hunted in Region 5 and there is no shortage of deer. If there were a shortage then they wouldn't have placed a doe draw in that region.


Nope you're right you sure can't eat antlers... It's really too bad the way the "public" percieves trophy hunting. I think it's a really disciplined and ethical sport.

I agree with you though Wild Game is great - it's the best... unfortunately to get the best meat you need to kill the animal as young as legally possible. This doesn't really help out trophy stock... And outfitters clients certainly aren't looking for a two-point. I wouldn't either... I would sooner spend $500 to go on a private ranch and take a buffalo to fill my freezer for the year rather than shoot a young deer before it will ever reach it's prime.



I saw 3 bucks and 17 doe and fawns that day in region 5. Doesn't sound like there is any shortage to me


Just because you saw this much game in one day doesn't mean anything about actual game count in the area. You had a great day hunting but let's not mistake it for any type of scientific or measurable data.

Out of those 3 bucks how many were of trophy quality 4x4 or better? When you shoot two points, they don't ever make it to be a 4 point do they? But you're right they do taste better.

To each their own... I don't want to argue with you Marc. This is your forum. I just wanted to add to the topic. :)

Happy Hunting
Carl

[Marc]

I don't consider it to be my forum but the member’s forum. I don't want people to think that they have to thread lightly when they're on the opposite side of a debate just because I personally own the site. I'm just one of the boys in the forums. There is nothing wrong with a good debate as long as we can do it in a civil manner and respect each other.

Welcome to the site Bigwhiteys.

I just find that there is to much emphasis on trophy hunting and it's sad, kids are loosing interest because they are being pressured to only shoot a big buck, counting points, and making the books instead of having fun with their dad or their friends going out and experiencing what it's all about. It's fine if people want to hold out for that wall hanger but I think it's wrong to try and enforce it on everyone.


Just because you saw this much game in one day doesn't mean anything about actual game count in the area. You had a great day hunting but let's not mistake it for any type of scientific or measurable data.

I was shown this area in region 5, and I was also told that only seeing 20 deer in one day was a slow day. Like I said before, if there was such a shortage of deer in Region 5 why would they introduce a doe season? Why is there 700 - 900 deer being killed on the highway from Williams Lake to Quesnel every year? In my mind it all comes down to trying to produce bigger bucks to attract bigger bucks ($$$) from the states for a select few. I don't think the residents in general want this and I think it spoke for itself during the last meeting where the outfitters didn't even bring it to the table. How about we allow the Biologist deal with the management of the deer herd and not from a few parties that could have financial gains from the new proposal.

Marc.

[rrfred]

Critical for us all to be respectful of the others point of view. I'm leaning more against allowing non resident trophy hunting and with some of the rationalizing being heard by some g/o, I'm, not buying the story. IMHO the costs fees for guided hunting are out of control, out of reach to the common man and if we look at a few of the southern postboards we will see that bc-we are simply a fee for service resource to those with money from other countries to come and strip our resources; and we sell out like urchins in a 3rd world street market.
Concerning the economy/implications as a my combined family spending per year on shooting and outdoors trips in general contributes thousands of dollars to our economy.

We are over focused on money, hide, bone and rack and not focused on proper game management. cheers and best of the seaon

[sealevel]

We have adderested the trophy deer hunting pretty well in this prov. with the 4 point only season just look at all the trophy pics. on this and huntshoot. thats working really well. Here in the southern part of the prov. there is a population exsplostion on deer and moose.so why reduce it down to one per hunter so there will be a bigger die off next bad winter. And i am a supporter of trophy hunting if you take the horns and all the meat. But i will no support taking oppertunalies away from residents and giving it to guides.

[bigwhiteys]

I just find that there is to much emphasis on trophy hunting and it's sad, kids are loosing interest because they are being pressured to only shoot a big buck, counting points, and making the books instead of having fun with their dad or their friends going out and experiencing what it's all about.


Okay... I see your point but where does one draw the line? Are you going to teach your kid to continually shoot little pre-mature bucks? If thats the way we all hunted then there will surely be nothing left for the next generation.

Sure... My first buck was just a little tiny 4 pnt and that's okay for someones first ever buck. But after several years of hunting and you're still blasting pre-mature animals well before their prime and breeding age then you're not really helping the conservation situation are you?

You're simply adding to the problem...

2 Mulies in one season? Do you really need two? In region 7 we can take one every 2 years... I'd say with two every year you have a pretty sweet deal compared to other parts of the province.

Now... Are the Guide/Outfitters of the cariboo region looking to cut the resident quota and increase their own? Or are they just looking out for the depth of the species? I don't know...

Personally I watch deer die every single year in region 7 that shouldn't even be glanced at a second time. They are too small, too young and haven't been given the chance to reproduce. Some hunter just shoots the first buck he sees. It's an entirely different hunting mentality and one that without a doubt doesn't have any type of positive implications for the given species you are hunting.



I'm leaning more against allowing non resident trophy hunting and with some of the rationalizing being heard by some g/o, I'm, not buying the story. IMHO the costs fees for guided hunting are out of control, out of reach to the common man and if we look at a few of the southern postboards we will see that bc-we are simply a fee for service resource to those with money from other countries to come and strip our resources; and we sell out like urchins in a 3rd world street market


What many people don't understand is that the cost of outfitted hunts has risen just like everything else over the years. Outfitters have an extreme amount of overhead to run their businesses successfully.

My grandparents fuel bill just to run their lightplant was in excess of $18,000 per year. That doesn't include crew wages, livestock, airplane fuel, groceries, taxes and a plethora of other expenses.

Let's not forget that not ALL hunters who choose to hunt with an outfitter are RICH. Many of these hunters have saved for years to have their once-in-a-lifetime hunting opportunity and yes there are also wealthy hunters in the mix.

But guess what? We live in this province... As long as you're not a lazy ass then hunting opportunity is all around you. And we don't have to pay for guided hunts. So this nonsense of non-residents "taking away" from us residents is nothing more than useless negativity. We have it better then them ANY day of the week.

The poor *******s paying all that money to come and hunt what we can essentially hunt for next to nothing!



We are over focused on money, hide, bone and rack and not focused on proper game management. cheers and best of the seaon


Proper game management is in everyones best interest. And believe me the outfitters aren't as short sighted as some make them out to be... Guide/Outfitting is their livelyhood. It's in their best interest to have strong sustainable game populations for generations to come.

Both sides of this debate need to be prepared to make sacrifices, the Guide/outfitters have made them, and so have us resident hunters and there will probably be more in the future.

Who is being greedy here? The meat hunters who want more tags or the trophy hunters who want better quality and sustainable trophy population?

Its a tough thing for many resident hunters to understand unless you have spent some time on the other side of the hunting fence.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Onesock]

Well now that you have brought up being greedy I think without a doubt this is what the G/O are being. We just had the whole west coast sold to huggers with no other explanation other than greed. If you cut back the resident hunters so we can grow bigger horns who gains on that. The G/O and the wealthy clients. Bigger horns equal bigger fee's for guides as well as more hunters = more money for the G/O. In a few years when the rest of the G/O sell out to the huggers how do the residents get their share of the animals back. They DON'T. There obviously is an abundance of game in this region that should be harvested. Right now I am down on the G/O for what has happened on the west coast (selling out) and for trying to take our game animals away. This is only for the G/O gain, no one else's. Lets look at other hunting opportunity in this region, maybe a month of bow season's would be in order here. Lots of hunters with fewer kills?

[bigwhiteys]

Onesock,

I can tell that your response is coming more from anger than actual facts... That's okay.



We just had the whole west coast sold to huggers with no other explanation other than greed


Do you really know that? Do you really know ALL the facts that were behind this deal? Most likely not.

The west coast was sold to huggers... So what? All they have done is bought out and retired a hunting outfit (less american non-residents hunting anyways)... It's still open to residents is it not?


If you cut back the resident hunters so we can grow bigger horns who gains on that. The G/O and the wealthy clients. Bigger horns equal bigger fee's for guides as well as more hunters = more money for the G/O

Are you kidding me? Do you really think G/O's prices are based on Horn size? That's simply not true and not how hunts are priced. Trophy quality might keep an outfitter booked up but it's not how they base their hunt price.

Do you know and understand what is involved with any outfitters species quota in this province? Have you ever outfitted? Or worked as a guide?

You'd know what I am talking about.

They have a LOT more to worry about then we do... Rest assured.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[kutenay]

I have heard the various arguements in favour of trophy selective killing of wildlife for decades, usually from those with a vested, financial interest in this questionable method of wildlife "management". Many of these folks also lecture we resident peasants as to how we are just so lucky in this Province to have all this hunting opportunity and this is done in a patronizing manner that essentially implies that non-residents have "rights" here somewhat similar to ours.

The funny thing is that the single, most crucial aspect of the situation is thus neatly avoided; that is, the game BELONGS to us, period. We B.C. hunters can shoot ANY legal animal we want to, this is our RIGHT. G/Os do NOT have the right to impede our use of our wildlife in any way whatsoever and non-residents have NO rights here at all.

The operating expenses of any given business are utterly irrelevant to the question of who has the right to hunt in B.C. The assumptions posted here concerning the effects upon wildlife populations of resident hunters harvest practices are specious and based upon a paradigm of "management" that is currently not supported by many, if not most, professional biologists. I find trophy selection to be an ecosystematically indefensible practice as I support a harvesting regime that emulates the random selection found in undisturbed ecosystems.

As to family in B.C., family businesses, and other issues of a personal nature; these are, again, not relevant to wildlife management. My family started in business in Victoria, B.C. before Confederation and we do not now have the wealth or social position we then enjoyed; does this mean that other B.C.'ers must give up a portion of their assets so I can live in the style we once did....simply because we did it, long ago?

The fact is that the G/Os are now attempting to limit resident hunting for their own financial benefit and that is NOT acceptable; consequently, I favour an immediate end to ALL non-Canadian hunting in B.C.

[Jagermeister]

Onesock,

Do you know and understand what is involved with any outfitters species quota in this province? Have you ever outfitted? Or worked as a guide?

You'd know what I am talking about.

They have a LOT more to worry about then we do... Rest assured.

Happy Hunting!
Carl
I know and understand that when a G/O can and does book hunts in another G/O's territory, then someone is grossly over quota.

You ask,"Do you know and understand what is involved with any outfitters species quota in this province?" Quite frankly, I don't know and/or understand, however, if you want, enlighten us.

As you can gather, I'm not overly fond of G/Os. I think that they are an unscrupulous bunch, who think that their territory and the game animals in it are their exclusive domain, to the point of being disruptive to the resident hunter, even burning down the resident's camp. Of course this is speculative as it was never proven legally, but one day that missing link is going to show up and bag him.

[bigwhiteys]

I have heard the various arguements in favour of trophy selective killing of wildlife for decades, usually from those with a vested, financial interest in this questionable method of wildlife "management". Many of these folks also lecture we resident peasants as to how we are just so lucky in this Province to have all this hunting opportunity and this is done in a patronizing manner that essentially implies that non-residents have "rights" here somewhat similar to ours.

Well... I hate to enlighten you but I don't have a vested financial interest in the outfitting my business... My Grandparents sold their hunting country several years ago and retired.

Questionable wildlife management? Far From... Thier hunting area consistently produced some of the largest trophy animals in our province and still does today because of their "Questionable wildlife management"


The funny thing is that the single, most crucial aspect of the situation is thus neatly avoided; that is, the game BELONGS to us, period. We B.C. hunters can shoot ANY legal animal we want to, this is our RIGHT. G/Os do NOT have the right to impede our use of our wildlife in any way whatsoever and non-residents have NO rights here at all.


Thats a bold statement... I would say the game belongs to nobody but nature... In fact I would say that the game belongs to the person who ventures out there and shoots it... Whether they are a resident hunter, american hunter, german hunter, austrian hunter... whatever... If they follow the correct channels to do so.

You're absolutely correct though... As a BC hunter you CAN shoot any legal animal that YOU want to. It's a great thing isn't it? It doesn't make it right? It also doesn't mean you're "helping" the species in any way... lets not make that mistake.

Unfortunately our society also promotes "Free Enterprise" and there are people who choose to make a living supplying guided hunting trips. It's just something I think you'll have to live with. I am okay with it...


The operating expenses of any given business are utterly irrelevant to the question of who has the right to hunt in B.C. The assumptions posted here concerning the effects upon wildlife populations of resident hunters harvest practices are specious and based upon a paradigm of "management" that is currently not supported by many, if not most, professional biologists. I find trophy selection to be an ecosystematically indefensible practice as I support a harvesting regime that emulates the random selection found in undisturbed ecosystems.


Actually... It was very relevant to the response I was replying to... He couldn't understand why the prices of an outfitted hunt can be so high...



The fact is that the G/Os are now attempting to limit resident hunting for their own financial benefit and that is NOT acceptable; consequently, I favour an immediate end to ALL non-Canadian hunting in B.C.


Do you really think that is what is going on? If you favor an immediate end to ALL non-canadian hunting in BC then we'd also better end ALL non-canadian sportfishing, whale watching, ecotours, etc... We should stop selling our lumber, our oil and our power... Not to mention our water as well.

Why should anyone else have the priveledge of enjoying our vast natural resources?

I think we should also BAN people from other parts of Canada moving here then and gaining residency to hunt OUR game. If we are going to be selfish and greedy lets go all the way not half-assed. If you weren't born here then too bad.

Would that make you happy?

Happy Hunting
Carl

[Onesock]

Bigwhiteys: If the guiding territory wasn't sold for greed what was it sold for. A man that fought against green peacer's and anti hunting organizations sold for what reason. You tell me. Please tell me all the facts. The facts would put the G/O in a better light if it was not sold for greed.
What are the G/O prices set on. If they cannot produce trophy racks that clients will not come. If they can't shoot big animals will they come for meat. You said resident hunters hunt for meat and that is harvesting animals before they are mature. According to you that is not right.
Never worked as a guide but i do have an idea on how harvest quotas are decided upon.
The way I see it 95% resident hunters should get 95% of the tags. Not 60/70%.
This is going nowhere.
The resident hunter pays 99% of the taxes in this province and we should have 99% of the huntable animals.

[bigwhiteys]

Hi Onesock,



If the guiding territory wasn't sold for greed what was it sold for. A man that fought against green peacer's and anti hunting organizations sold for what reason. You tell me. Please tell me all the facts. The facts would put the G/O in a better light if it was not sold for greed.


Why does anyone sell anything?

Money makes the world go round my friend... where have you been the last few centuries? I don't think anyone is "greedy" when they sell their own assets. It's a business decision and in reality it was HIS decision not yours.

If you had the money to buy it YOU could have. But you didn't! Thats just the way life is. We can bitch and complain (which does nothing) or we can wait and see what happens.



You tell me. Please tell me all the facts. The facts would put the G/O in a better light if it was not sold for greed.


I don't know ALL the facts thats why I asked if the other fellow did... For someone who is so pissed about it maybe you have all the facts?


You said resident hunters hunt for meat and that is harvesting animals before they are mature. According to you that is not right.


I did not say this...? I said that MEAT hunters take animals before they are mature. This is not a statement that is a verifiable FACT.

Have you ever eaten a rutty old buck or bull? I am a resident hunter just like you... Obviously with a different outlook on the way things are or should be. Does it make me wrong? Nope... Does it make you wrong? Nope...

Whatever way we choose to go the outcome is the same... One more dead animal.

If you need to hunt to fill your freezer thats FINE by me! Fill it up! Just don't complain when the regs change to preserve the quality and quantity of our game.

It's inevitable when everyone wants to harvest the most that they can. Wouldn't you agree?

It's a frustrating debate that could go on forever. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Can anyone really make that assumption? If only the game could talk... We'd know all the answers.

Happy Hunting
Carl

[kutenay]

The game "belongs" to anyone who shoots it, well, that is kinda odd coming from someone who openly advocates and supports CHARGING hunters substantial sums to do just that. You attempt to co-opt the discussion by deliberately twisting my comments to make it seem as though I advocate situations that are not what I meant at all. This is typical of a sophomoric mindset and demonstrates a lack of integrity.

I very specifically stated my opinions concerning other CANADIANS and you twist them to refute my arguement that you cannot honestly reply to; this is exactly what all too many G/Os have done for decades. I referred to "wildlife management" in a specific manner and you also tried to muddle that up, I have no further interest in discussing this topic with anyone who behaves in this fashion.

As to...selfish and greedy..., pot, kettle, black. Your points do not address the situation and your lame justifications are as false as your concern for B.C. hunting. In any case, I intend to continue to lobby for an end to G/Os and "non-resident alien" hunting and I think that the majority of B.C. residents agree with me on this.

[BOOMSTICK]

I have worked as a guide for a very long time, yet I am also a BC Resident Hunter. I have seen and heard both sides of the story. I have known many G/O's over the years and throughout the province. Many I regard as some of the finest people I know, and many are complete assholes. Do not put all Outfitters in the same boat. I can tell you that right now there are a number of G/O's who want nothing to do with the GOABC, due to the way 'certain things' are being handled (including the issue of the Reg. 5 bag limit reduction). One thing that angers me is foreign ownership of many territories in B.C., I have a problem with that, as do many. Guide/Oufitters and Resident Hunters have co-existed for a very long time in this province, and I believe they will continue to do so. Yes, once in a while there are confrontations, but mostly it is just harsh words and empty threats, which mean nothing. As a Resident Hunter, I will hunt anywhere in this Province that I choose, according to the BC Hunting Regulations, no G/O can or will do anything to stop me.

Bigwhiteys, I do not believe that you are justified in suggesting to me or anyone else of the size or age of the animal we wish to hunt. I am also a meat hunter, and every year I try to harvest a spike or two point muley, and a young bull moose, that is MY choice, and populations are not threatened because of it. Do what you believe is right, but do not try to enforce it on the rest of us. As far as having patience for 'the big one' to come along, understand that there are many families who rely on the harvest of game animals to feed them, and they do not have the 'time' to hold out for a trophy, their concern is meat for the freezer. I think Marc is on the right track, there is too much emphasis on trophy hunting for our young hunters. I personally do not give a rats ass about how many trophy bucks are around, the population as a whole is what concerns me, and deer populations are not threatened in any way whatsoever.

[bigwhiteys]

Kutenay,



The game "belongs" to anyone who shoots it, well, that is kinda odd coming from someone who openly advocates and supports CHARGING hunters substantial sums to do just that. You attempt to co-opt the discussion by deliberately twisting my comments to make it seem as though I advocate situations that are not what I meant at all. This is typical of a sophomoric mindset and demonstrates a lack of integrity.


Hmm... I am the one twisting words? Lack of integrity...? Yikes... those are pretty strong accusations. Coming from someone who obviously has little to no experience on "the other side" so to speak. Your hatred obviously runs deep though... Did an outfitter deliberately wrong you in some way?


I very specifically stated my opinions concerning other CANADIANS and you twist them to refute my arguement that you cannot honestly reply to; this is exactly what all too many G/Os have done for decades. I referred to "wildlife management" in a specific manner and you also tried to muddle that up, I have no further interest in discussing this topic with anyone who behaves in this fashion.

You said that ALL non-canadian hunting in BC should be stopped. Well I hate to inform you that our wildlife is a natural resource, Much like Natural Gas, Lumber, Oil and Power.

Fishing is pretty much on par with hunting isn't it? Why don't we ban all the NON-Canadian fishing here too... It's along the same line.

What do you think THAT would do for the economy? You are the one making silly totally one-sided statements about this issue. You have an obvious hate on for outfitters... Hows that working for you?

I have not displayed such distaste as you have my friend. While I may not agree with some things said by individuals on here I remain professional enough to not question anyones integrity with comments such as the ones you are making.


I referred to "wildlife management" in a specific manner and you also tried to muddle that up, I have no further interest in discussing this topic with anyone who behaves in this fashion

How did I muddle that up? You came out with a sarcastic remark about "questionable method of wildlife management" And I told you that my Grandparents hunting area consistently produced some of the best quality trophy animals in the province. And thats a FACT!

They did an extremely good job managing the game in their area as did many of the outfitters situated next to them. It was a cooperative effort among outfitters and conservation to see to it the area WAS well managed as it borders several parks. To this day the hunting in the area is unparalled for residents and G/O's alike.


As to...selfish and greedy..., pot, kettle, black. Your points do not address the situation and your lame justifications are as false as your concern for B.C. hunting. In any case, I intend to continue to lobby for an end to G/Os and "non-resident alien" hunting and I think that the majority of B.C. residents agree with me on this.

As false as my concern for BC hunting...? That's a statement that doesn't just bother me it actually pisses me off. I think it's really too bad that your communication skills have detoriated this far and you are now making claims and statements that you TRULY know NOTHING about.

That shows ME the level of integrity of the person I am dealing with...

Regardless. Have a happy new year.

Carl

[kutenay]

You have been "called" on your arrogant, patronizing manner of expressing yourself by other posters and your "cut and paste" attempts to co-opt both my comments and those of others are both obvious and ludicrous. I have almost 50 years of serious bush experience, including working for the B.C. Forest Service, the Alberta Forest Service and various private concerns; I am 59 years old and my family has been in B.C. since 1870.

My opinions are based on a genuine concern for B.C. and not merely upon some some rhetorical drivel about "free enterprise"; I have been active in wilderness and wildlife conservation since 1960. So, I have seen this situation from ALL sides and you simply amuse me with your attempts to pose as a concerned resident hunter.....I notice that other posters seem to agree.

But, carry on, you simply demonstrate exactly the attitude that many of us refer to where G/Os are concerned.....and that helps with the changes we need in B.C. as most people can see exactly what your concerns really are. I have nothing more to say on this as it will not further the cause of conservation to engage in a slagging session with you.

[bigwhiteys]

Hi Boomstick,


I have worked as a guide for a very long time, yet I am also a BC Resident Hunter. I have seen and heard both sides of the story. I have known many G/O's over the years and throughout the province. Many I regard as some of the finest people I know, and many are complete assholes. Do not put all Outfitters in the same boat. I can tell you that right now there are a number of G/O's who want nothing to do with the GOABC, due to the way 'certain things' are being handled (including the issue of the Reg. 5 bag limit reduction). One thing that angers me is foreign ownership of many territories in B.C., I have a problem with that, as do many. Guide/Oufitters and Resident Hunters have co-existed for a very long time in this province, and I believe they will continue to do so. Yes, once in a while there are confrontations, but mostly it is just harsh words and empty threats, which mean nothing. As a Resident Hunter, I will hunt anywhere in this Province that I choose, according to the BC Hunting Regulations, no G/O can or will do anything to stop me.


I agree with your statements. You can't put ALL guide outfitters in the same boat nor can you place ALL resident hunters in the same boat.


Bigwhiteys, I do not believe that you are justified in suggesting to me or anyone else of the size or age of the animal we wish to hunt.

Thats not what I was suggesting... I said if you need the meat thats fine! Have at er! just don't complain when and if the regs change.




I am also a meat hunter, and every year I try to harvest a spike or two point muley, and a young bull moose, that is MY choice, and populations are not threatened because of it. Do what you believe is right, but do not try to enforce it on the rest of us.


Totally agree. My apologies for implying or enforcing anything on you. I was merely providing some insight as to WHY the outfitters in this particular region may be fighting to reduce the quota. (that's what my first post was)

Everybody seems to want more, more, more and both sides are blaming the other party for their lack of... Does that solve both our problems?

Then we have people like "Kutenay" who think that there shouldn't be any G/O in the province period... Will his line of thought create a win/win situation for anyone?


I think Marc is on the right track, there is too much emphasis on trophy hunting for our young hunters. I personally do not give a rats ass about how many trophy bucks are around, the population as a whole is what concerns me, and deer populations are not threatened in any way whatsoever.


Fair enough... We have all pissed at each other back and forth can we let this thread die or do other people have arguments they wish to be voiced?

I know I don't really want to contribute anymore... the communication skills of some members are rapidly detioriating. (Not you Boomstick)

Happy Hunting
Carl

[bigwhiteys]

Kutenay,


You have been "called" on your arrogant, patronizing manner of expressing yourself by other posters and your "cut and paste" attempts to co-opt both my comments and those of others are both obvious and ludicrous. I have almost 50 years of serious bush experience, including working for the B.C. Forest Service, the Alberta Forest Service and various private concerns; I am 59 years old and my family has been in B.C. since 1870.

Called on my Arrogant behavior...? Whatever you say. I am not the one slinging insults and names at the other.

Thank you for sharing your family history but from what I have read you aren't in anyway directly experienced or related to the guide outfitting business or profession? I am sure anyone else in the business reading your posts would agree.


My opinions are based on a genuine concern for B.C. and not merely upon some some rhetorical drivel about "free enterprise"; I have been active in wilderness and wildlife conservation since 1960. So, I have seen this situation from ALL sides and you simply amuse me with your attempts to pose as a concerned resident hunter.....I notice that other posters seem to agree.

(Just to clarify something I am NOT an outfitter nor do I work for one)

My grandpa was guiding in this province before 1960 and started his own outfit in 1963 which was run successfully until he sold it in the 90's. Now it's still being run successfully by another BC outfitter.

He's been around the bush to my friend... In fact if your 59 he was running around the mountains guiding sheep while you were still in diapers and I wasn't even thought of yet.

His love and passion for the outdoors was shared and passed onto my dad and then passed onto me... And soon will be passed onto my son when he is old enough. So my love and commitment to the preservation of our great outdoors and family roots in BC go a long ways back.

You do have a few years on me though I'll give you that!

Drivel? Free Enterprise is a FACT of life Kutenay. And some people have chosen to make hunting their LIVING.

It's too bad my Grandpa sold it and retired... I really wish I could have carried on his torch. He did a lot for hunting in this province for residents and non-residents alike.

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Jagermeister]

Man, I did not for one moment think that this topic was going to go this distance. You sure gotem primed Bigwhiteys, like casting a fly into a stocked trout pond. ;-)

And seeing that all the younger set will be whooping and hollering tomorrow night, I'll take this oppurtunity to Wish you all a
"Happy New Year"
and remember boys and girls,
"Don't Drink and Drive!"

[kutenay]

Just to clarify a few points for anyone interested, my comments concerning wildlife management were about just that, not about some attempt to deliberately alter the age class/sex ratio of a given wildlife population(s) by killing a larger percentage of mature "trophy" males than would usually die in an unhunted population. In order to discuss management, we first must set the parameters and objectives that we will operate within and hope to attain and this takes some actual biological knowledge of the species/ecosystems under consideration.

An example of selection by "trophy hunting" due to the "Outdoor Life" circa 1958 school of wildlife management which has resulted in a LOWERING of size and abundance of "trophy" rams is the Bighorn Sheep of the Eastern Slopes of Alberta. This is currently under study by Univ. Ab. wildlife biologists and preliminary reports indicate that the "management" style preferred by G/Os and "trophy" hunters has actually damaged the over-all productivity of these herds and has serious long-term implications for ALL hunting. I have lived in the bush in these areas quite extensively and done some sampling work for some of the biologists concerned with habitat and it's various effects on mammal populations, so, I am speaking from experience.

I have no problem with B.C. residents, who live and pay taxes here, year-around, making their living(s) providing hunting for other Canadians, as I have said. However, the current situation is not fair to we who own B.C. by birthright and allowing foreigners to hunt/kill our wildlife when our opportunities are diminished by LEH or access restrictions is simply wrong. Hunting and angling are NOT the same as selling hydroelectricity or lumber or petrochemicals, I would have thought that obvious.

I can remember discussing this as a kid with real Kootenay "old-timers" who told me over 50 years ago that we would eventually have to stop foreign trophy hunting to preserve what is ours; many of my longtime friends who are professional biologists and foresters have agreed. This discussion kinda reminds me of supervising "tree planting" projects for both the Forest Service and private consulting firms back in the day. We were forced by B.C.F.S. policy to plant Doug. Fir on sites best suited for Red Cedar and W. Hemlock, because the plywood plants of the mega-corporations needed D.F. "peeler" feed stock; the seedlings did not do very well and, notice how many plywood plants are in production now???

There is more to management than many people believe and short- term policies usually end up with results far different than those originally desired. B.C. has had a history of such eco/economic disasters, it's time we changed things.

[BOOMSTICK]

I would just like to say that I do not agree with anyone who is in favour of a ban on all Non-Resident hunting. I have had the pleasure of hunting in Africa and much of the United States, yet I believe, as do most of us, that British Columbia offers the greatest hunting experience in the world. I think that to deny people from other countries or provinces the chance to experience what British Columbia has to offer would be very a selfish and narrow-minded way of thinking. The BC hunting regs are catered to the Resident Hunters, not to G/O's and Non-Residents, and always will be. The number of animals harvested by Guide/Outfitters is small comparison to what we Resident Hunters take each year, that being said, we have nothing to worry about. Conservation and wildlife management practices in B.C. are terrific, there is plenty of game for us to chase.

It is a common attitude for Resident Hunters to feel resent toward G/O's, yet many hunters have never had a problem with, or even hunted in an outfitters territory. The negative attitude towards Oufitters can be credited to a few G/O's, who, as I said earlier, are complete assholes. They took it upon themselves to make hunting in their area a truly miserable experience for Resident Hunters, and all it takes is a few 'bad apples' like these(I will not mention any names) to give all Outfitters a bad reputation.

Put yourself in the Guides shoes, and ask yourself what would you do if resident hunters were in your area? Things look different from the other side of the valley.

[Steeleco]

While we all know that this is a HOT topic, I would like to remind ALL partisapants of the RULES. Keep things civil, no swearing, etc.

Valid points have been made by both sides from what I can see but lets not let our tempers make the admin do something unfavorable. Thanks guys

[houndogger]

None of you people even have the slightest clue on anything here! I think every area should have no doe draws or two bucks taken. Do any of you people know that these animals were put on this earth for cougars to eat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :biggrin: These cats need food and lots of it! My dogs need to get out of the box once in a while so I can take a few pics!;-) I for one have no problem with guide outfitters in this provice! I never seem to have much problem filling tags and I even hunt with a longbow!:roll: I didn't fill a sheep tag this year but the big brains at BCWF push for 25 tags in a small area. Bumped into six other hunters in a small area, but that is what everyone wants lots of tags!:confused:

[CanuckShooter]

Bigwhitey>>>?? I have been reading this thread...very interesting.

I have a couple of questions..and would be interested to hear your perspective on them??

1>> If shooting young or immature animals is something that would eventually degrade the population to the point that reg changes would be required...then why do we have cow/calf seasons and immature bull moose seasons??

2>> How can you say that non-resident hunters don't impact on resident hunting opportunities when the tags that are available are allocated to GOs?? and not made available for residents where there is an obvious demand for them...?? ie. buffalo tags....

[buckslayer]

WOW this is almost as heated as the traditional , compound , crossbow issue.

#1 First off i feel that G/O should have to be B.C. owned thus keeping the revenue generated by these hunts in B.C. I do not believe any foreign owners should be allowed as this is a theft of our natural resources. These outfitters do take in a large amount of money and most of it would filter down into our B.C. economy if no foreign ownership was allowed.

#2 There should be no less than 80% of allocations to B.C. residents. There are more than enough animals to go around but being a B.C. resident I feel we should be allowed a greater share of what is available.

#3 As for the size of animals anyone chooses to shoot it is their right to shoot whatever is legal and whatever they consider a trophy. If everyone only shot mature trophy animals the province would be overrun and rural areas would be in an uproar as every living thing it their yards would be chewed down to the ground . I live in the okanagan and there is not an orchardist who has anything good to say about the deer/bear population here thus affecting his/her ability to make a living due to damage to trees etc.

So in closing if you want to be a G/O here in our province take it for what it is and DON'T try to take away from the majority for your own benefit/gain by changing things you don't like about our rights.

My 2 cents worth Buckslayer

[Onesock]

I believe that as long as some animals require LEH's for residents to hunt them no foreigner should be able to hunt that species. Sums it up for me. If there is not enough critters for us why should a select few (G/O) profit from the selling of these animals to outsiders. And our hunting opportunity should not be lessened to provide for more mature animals if the herds are doing well now.

[kutenay]

I find it a very "telling" situation that posters who are/have been involved with the commercial, for profit, hunting industry and who are also "jet-set", international "trophy" hunters consistently attempt to denigrate residents who dare to advocate conservation-based, local and national use and control of OUR resources by calling us, ...selfish....greedy....narrow minded....

I also find that the level of rhetoric about wildlife management and ownership of G/O concessions is kinda interesting. The point is that NO G/O "owns" the area that he operates in and the "management" practices of G/Os relative to empirical wildlife science have, thus far, been largely based on what is financially good for them in the short term.

The Wolf problem in north-eastern B.C., during the '70s and '80s, for example was a result of an over-supply of available food without corresponding energy expenditures due to the huge amount of game meat left in the bush by G/Os and their foreign "trophy" hunter clients.

The real point is that B.C. residents MUST control our resources and our decisions should be based on both sound science and OUR hunting traditions and desires, not on what is good for a minority of commercial operators and usually wealthy foreigners.

I am very encouraged by the consistently polite and realistic posts here concerning this vital issue; we need changes and we have to do it ourselves as hunting is not a priority with either governments or most of the public. The concern shown by so many here will work to the benefit of the wildlife and B.C./Canadian hunters, it's about time!

[Mooseman]

Bigwhitey>>>?? I have been reading this thread...very interesting.

I have a couple of questions..and would be interested to hear your perspective on them??

1>> If shooting young or immature animals is something that would eventually degrade the population to the point that reg changes would be required...then why do we have cow/calf seasons and immature bull moose seasons??

2>> How can you say that non-resident hunters don't impact on resident hunting opportunities when the tags that are available are allocated to GOs?? and not made available for residents where there is an obvious demand for them...?? ie. buffalo tags....

I can help you there, if you allow me.

1>> That was asked for by the BCWF to create "opportunity" and is a proven way to reduce a population the quickest way possible.

2>> There would be no buffalo for you to hunt today if it wasn't for outfitters to begin with.

Best Regards,
Michael

[willy442]

Kutenay: I have been following the on going dialogue, of your self and Big Whitey. I can't believe some of your views.
I'am 52 years old and shot my first Stone Sheep at the young age of 14. Since that time, I have spent many years living out in the wild, as a TRAPPER,HUNTER,GUIDE and for a short time OUTFITTER. Over my 32year span as a Trapper and Hunting guide, I have participated in many game and predator studies and counts. I have seen Wolves kill, very seldom the sick and weak, but usually the young, the babies of whatever species. I also,was one of the airplane pilots flying spotter plane, for the BCFW back when the wolf kill project was taking place on the Muskawa and Kecheika. Your statement that it was required due to large amounts of meat left by GO's, totally proves to me that you have way to much time on your hands to type and very little knowledge of true facts and reasons. Sir: man hunting is a predator. If man is going to hunt we must control other predators to keep the ecosystem of mother nature as closely in balance as we can. This wolf kill took place as a study and sample predator regulation by our FW. I may add that, all flying was funded by GUIDES. Now lets move on to the Elk transplant that took place into these area's shortly after this predator regulation again mainly funded by GO's (lets not forget residents hunt these Elk). These populations have flourished. These ecosystems are presently some of the best hunting in the world, onlyu surpassed by Africa. I must in closing credit some of the resident hunting population with assisting the BCFW and GO's in trying to help maintain good populations of all game predators included.
Bill

[Mooseman]

WOW this is almost as heated as the traditional , compound , crossbow issue.

#1 First off i feel that G/O should have to be B.C. owned thus keeping the revenue generated by these hunts in B.C. I do not believe any foreign owners should be allowed as this is a theft of our natural resources. These outfitters do take in a large amount of money and most of it would filter down into our B.C. economy if no foreign ownership was allowed.

#2 There should be no less than 80% of allocations to B.C. residents. There are more than enough animals to go around but being a B.C. resident I feel we should be allowed a greater share of what is available.

#3 As for the size of animals anyone chooses to shoot it is their right to shoot whatever is legal and whatever they consider a trophy. If everyone only shot mature trophy animals the province would be overrun and rural areas would be in an uproar as every living thing it their yards would be chewed down to the ground . I live in the okanagan and there is not an orchardist who has anything good to say about the deer/bear population here thus affecting his/her ability to make a living due to damage to trees etc.

So in closing if you want to be a G/O here in our province take it for what it is and DON'T try to take away from the majority for your own benefit/gain by changing things you don't like about our rights.

My 2 cents worth Buckslayer

Well you know for some of us this means "EVERYTHING" it is our life. That could get one excited at times if you have to fight for the right to exist.
I am sure if most of the guys here had to face the possibility of loosing not just their job but everything they lived and worked for, they would be not happy either.

As to your points:
#1 Most of them are. And for the others I think it is save to say that most of us agree with you.

#2 The outfitters allocation are in most cases not far from what you propose. Some of us have only 9% - 15% of the species that are popular with resident hunters. That is why the new allocation process was started. As for species like Grizzly, there could be no Grizzly hunting if it wasn't for GOABC, SCI and Conservation Force. All organizations funded by NON-RESIDENT hunting from all over the world.

#3 What age classes should be targeted and in what numbers should be decided by a professional biologist that has wildlife management at mind. But since "WE ALL" are just looking out for our own interests, the game branch has to manage people and not the game.

Your last point: We are not asking for more!!! We are fighting in most cases to survive and to keep what we have. Status Quo "if sustainable" will keep us happy. In the case of Reg. 5 deer quota there are parts of Reg. 5 that do not have a healthy population. I can tell you that for a fact! Around Quesnel is a fantastic population but that is not all of REG 5.

Best Regards,
Michael

[tangozulu]

I would just like to say that I do not agree with anyone who is in favour of a ban on all Non-Resident hunting. I have had the pleasure of hunting in Africa and much of the United States, yet I believe, as do most of us, that British Columbia offers the greatest hunting experience in the world. I think that to deny people from other countries or provinces the chance to experience what British Columbia has to offer would be very a selfish and narrow-minded way of thinking. The BC hunting regs are catered to the Resident Hunters, not to G/O's and Non-Residents, and always will be. The number of animals harvested by Guide/Outfitters is small comparison to what we Resident Hunters take each year, that being said, we have nothing to worry about. Conservation and wildlife management practices in B.C. are terrific, there is plenty of game for us to chase.

It is a common attitude for Resident Hunters to feel resent toward G/O's, yet many hunters have never had a problem with, or even hunted in an outfitters territory. The negative attitude towards Oufitters can be credited to a few G/O's, who, as I said earlier, are complete assholes. They took it upon themselves to make hunting in their area a truly miserable experience for Resident Hunters, and all it takes is a few 'bad apples' like these(I will not mention any names) to give all Outfitters a bad reputation.

Put yourself in the Guides shoes, and ask yourself what would you do if resident hunters were in your area? Things look different from the other side of the valley.

First of all virtually all of bc is under some G/O area so I assure you most hunters are on one or another area most of the time. They (GO) do not "own" anything but many think they own large areas of BC, especially those from other countries. Nor do the logging companies, mining companies, oil companies or ranchers that lease certain components of crown land resources. This is a great thing.
I am not apposed to the BCGOA but it seems that they have decided we, the resident hunters and owners of the land, are the enemy. Up North they are consistently trying to limit resident access to huge areas so they can be used exclusivly for themselves. Now they want our tags.
We need to have a resident ownership policy first of all, then the BCGOA needs a change of heart towards us.
Lastly if the guide is in an uncomfortable position when an area is shared with a resident it is only because the guide gave his client unrealistic expectations. Surely most hunters are aware there are now 5 billion people sharing the planet with them and best get over it.

[willy442]

#3 What age classes should be targeted and in what numbers should be decided by a professional biologist that has wildlife management at mind. But since "WE ALL" are just looking out for our own interests, the game branch has to manage people and not the game.
Mooseman you are right due to politics , conflicts of interests, and the geographical diversity of our great province. It is impossible for science to be the sole basis of game management. This is a fact that became clear to FW managers in years past. This is the basis of limited entry and quotas. Not game management.

[bigwhiteys]

Willy442 & Mooseman,

It's nice to see some older more experienced hunters with obvious knowledge in the outfitting area to come on here and post in defense of the industry. (which much to kutenays dismay will not dissapear anytime soon)

I know of the many contributions Guide/Outfitters have made to the wildlife populations and conservation in our province. And am respectful of that.

Someone mentioned Buffalo? There would be no Buffalo to hunt if it wasn't for Guide Outfitters transporting them into Pink Mountain in the first place.

Willy442 mentioned the Elk in the Muskwa/Ketchika which is also awesome hunting that residents enjoy at the hands of the outfitters. Including all the new habitat that was created by controlled burns again at the hands of the guide/outfitters.

In closing... I would just like to know the single handed contributions that "Kutenay" has made to hunting in this great province aside from being full of negativity, hate and dislike for the guide/outfitters.

Counting the rings on trees doesn't count Kutenay.

Happy Hunting
Carl

[oldtimer]

Well the old guy has a few remarks after reading this forum topic.
1. Guide outfitters are a legitimate good business for the economy.
2. there are good ones and bad ones. Just like resident hunters.
3. Unless you live and work in region 5 you can't really say what the deer poipulation is like. I and my family ( 3 generations ) live and hunt here and I will say with a certainty that the 2 deer limit is more than justified and if anybody wants to come for a drive I will prove it.
4. I have over the years seen a lot of pretty big 2 and 3 point animals so to refer to them as smaller immature is not 100 % corredct in my opinion.
5. I am a bow hunter and a meat hunter and I am going to take the animal of my choice and it will NOT change the demographics of the herd one bit.Yes if given the opportunity and the draw I will and have taken does.

Welcome to the site Bigwhiteys.

Good topic you guys .keep it civil and HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.
Mike

[kutenay]

I did not say that a Wolf kill was required due to anything; my only comment was that the Wolves in the Muskwa-Kechika became a problem due to the increase in the available food supply relative to their energy expenditure in obtaining it. Yet, I am castigated by those who do not discuss this in ecological terms and accuse me of being inexperienced and full of hate. I find the self-serving and scientifically questionable comments to be an indication of the actual knowledge levels of those who post them, enough said.

My opinions are derived from a considerable amount of personal experience, many seminars and courses in biology and conversations with quite a number of working, professional biologists here in B.C. It is true, I can type and even spell correctly, however, I confine my remarks to debating attitudes and am not going to engage in slurs upon other posters. In any event, I think that commercial hunting by foreigners is about finished here in B.C. and the ugly attitudes shown here reflect a realization of that fact by those whose lifestyle choices do not seem to fit contemporary social reality.

I wish that many things were different as I preferred life in the Kootenays before the Columbia River Treaty dams, the East Kootenay "strip mines" and large-scale "clear-cut' logging made major and deleterious changes in that fantastic area. However, my chosen "bush" lifestyle, which involved being totally alone for 3 month periods in the most remote, wilderness parts of B.C., starting in 1965, had to change to meet the social changes in B.C.; I kinda think that the same situation is facing many G/Os here in B.C. and that's life, it ain't always what we want.....

BTW, for anyone interested, I suggest reading a basic Ecology text, this will give you an idea how spurious the comments concerning ...balance... in ecosystems are. This is a "construct" of some "managers" which is not a scientific paradigm. After almost 50 years of study and concern for conservation and living in the bush as well, I will cheerfully admit that I do not have all the answers, but, I am capable of discerning between scientific data and self-promoting rhetoric.

[Mooseman]

#3 What age classes should be targeted and in what numbers should be decided by a professional biologist that has wildlife management at mind. But since "WE ALL" are just looking out for our own interests, the game branch has to manage people and not the game.
Mooseman you are right due to politics , conflicts of interests, and the geographical diversity of our great province. It is impossible for science to be the sole basis of game management. This is a fact that became clear to FW managers in years past. This is the basis of limited entry and quotas. Not game management.


I have to disagree a bit. I think it is not impossible to base wildlife management decisions for the benefit of wildlife populations. It has become politically damaging to the government of the time to make sound scientific decisions that were unpopular to the BCWF.

If we (GOABC + BCWF) could sit at a table and really just have the wellbeing of wildlife at heart. We could do fantastic things with this Province and its Wildlife.

Our challenges of the future lie not in a battle between Guide Outfitters and Resident Hunters. Together we could actually stand a chance to win against the ant-hunting movement! But only if all of us pull on the same rope in the same direction!!!

[tangozulu]

Willy442 & Mooseman,

It's nice to see some older more experienced hunters with obvious knowledge in the outfitting area to come on here and post in defense of the industry. (which much to kutenays dismay will not dissapear anytime soon)

I know of the many contributions Guide/Outfitters have made to the wildlife populations and conservation in our province. And am respectful of that.

Someone mentioned Buffalo? There would be no Buffalo to hunt if it wasn't for Guide Outfitters transporting them into Pink Mountain in the first place.

Willy442 mentioned the Elk in the Muskwa/Ketchika which is also awesome hunting that residents enjoy at the hands of the outfitters. Including all the new habitat that was created by controlled burns again at the hands of the guide/outfitters.

In closing... I would just like to know the single handed contributions that "Kutenay" has made to hunting in this great province aside from being full of negativity, hate and dislike for the guide/outfitters.

Counting the rings on trees doesn't count Kutenay.

Happy Hunting
Carl

Seems a bit of a stretch that the Outfitters put the elk in the MK. They were noted in the Liard River area at least way back in the 20's, and have always been in the Muskwa area. The bunch flown via the caribou aircraft into Scoop lake back in the early 80's funded by the G/O and the taxpayers of BC. (this means residents) There was also contributions by the foundation for NA Wil Sheep as the burning would improve sheep habitat.
The Buffalo which by the way are not native to BC were in fact released by a G/O and Rancher. (who should have been charged)This of course was illegal and if these animals were not running around the Peace Country the province would have released Native Wood bison into the area that we would now be hunting instead.
The old outfitters always burned areas as they saw fit which may be good for wildlife but wasnt theirs to burn anyways.
Ditto with wolf poisoning which went a long ways to wiping out grizzly bears too.
Happy new Year

[bigwhiteys]

Kutenay,


My opinions are derived from a considerable amount of personal experience, many seminars and courses in biology and conversations with quite a number of working, professional biologists here in B.C. It is true, I can type and even spell correctly, however, I confine my remarks to debating attitudes and am not going to engage in slurs upon other posters. In any event, I think that commercial hunting by foreigners is about finished here in B.C. and the ugly attitudes shown here reflect a realization of that fact by those whose lifestyle choices do not seem to fit contemporary social reality.

Seminars and Courses? And conversations with BC Biologists? Are you being totally serious? You don't have a knowedgable leg to stand on if everything you preach is nothing more than your own personal heresay and not based on real world "Hunting/Outfitting" experience.

So and so told me this, so and so told me that... That's not verifiable nor credible in any sense of the word.

Trophy hunting our BC game by foriegners is not something that will dissapear anytime soon... I find it odd that you cannot come to the realization that guide outfitters are going to be around (and have been around) much longer then YOU.

So far you are the only one here who has these rather odd but very strong viewpoints on the issue. (No fault of your own... it's a chemical imbalance I bet!)


I wish that many things were different as I preferred life in the Kootenays before the Columbia River Treaty dams, the East Kootenay "strip mines" and large-scale "clear-cut' logging made major and deleterious changes in that fantastic area. However, my chosen "bush" lifestyle, which involved being totally alone for 3 month periods in the most remote, wilderness parts of B.C., starting in 1965, had to change to meet the social changes in B.C.; I kinda think that the same situation is facing many G/Os here in B.C. and that's life, it ain't always what we want.....


I think I am beginning to see why you spent so many months alone in the wilderness. Nobody in there right mind could handle being around you for any length of time with the negativity that oozes from your pores.

Again Kutenay... your "remote" bush experience has very little to do with anything related to Guide/Outfitting... You're comparing apples to oranges. Spending time in the bush alone isn't a business it is/was your hobby. Let's not confuse the two.

You keep grasping for these related straws to come across as some type of "Bush" wildlife expert that everyone should listen and heed when you're really nothing more than a disgruntled armchair expert who shares a view that a small minority of resident hunters share.

I think the smart resident hunters realize that rather than all of this in-fighting and accusations thrown around we need to come together and work together... Both parties united could sure do a lot of good for this province.

"All pulling on the same rope in the same direction" as Moosehunter so eloquently put it...


BTW, for anyone interested, I suggest reading a basic Ecology text, this will give you an idea how spurious the comments concerning ...balance... in ecosystems are. This is a "construct" of some "managers" which is not a scientific paradigm. After almost 50 years of study and concern for conservation and living in the bush as well, I will cheerfully admit that I do not have all the answers, but, I am capable of discerning between scientific data and self-promoting rhetoric.

It's very obvious to the readers that you don't have all the answers nor do I or anyone else posting here for that matter. But we are all just as capable at spotting the bullshit as you.

Don't think you're something special or the exception Kutenay... It's a good thing your outlandish views are in the minority and there are still many resident hunters who believe in the co-existence of outfitters/guides and residents (And they have voiced their opinions in this thread)

Happy Hunting
Carl

[rudar]

How about we allow the Biologist deal with the management of the deer herd and not from a few parties that could have financial gains from the new proposal.

Marc.

Unfortunately, that's not an option. The Biologist can only figure out how to manage the deer herd if somebody tells him or her what kind of a herd to manage for. Seems like the options here are a big population of small bucks or a small population of big bucks. Resident meat hunters want the former; trophy hunters (resident or foreign) want the latter. This is not a biological or scientific one, but a values and goals proposition, and there ain't no amount of scienctific data that can solve it.

[kutenay]

My living in the bush was actually WORKING which I did for most of the years between 1965 and 1993, as I have stated. Of course, actually attending university, working beside biologists, botanists, foresters and being employed by the B.C.F.S., the A.F.S. and even a short stint with the Fish & Wildlife could not possibly give one the experience necessary to have any valid opinions on conservation issues.

I am all in favour of cooperation between ALL stakeholders in B.C.'s resources, as long as they actually LIVE here; however, residents must always take precedence and foreign influence is not acceptable. I find Mooseman's and Tangozulu's posts to be very interesting and informative, this is the sort of dialogue that is in everyone'sbest interests. I also remember the uproar when Lynn Ross released the Bison near Pink Mountain and am opposed to this sort of "management" activity. I also made much the same point as "rudar" has so well; it is social policy which determines environmental "management" decisions....for better or worse....

As to Guide-Outfitting have been here longer than I have, well, my family has lived here for much longer than G/Os have been in action and I think that commercial, foreign hunting is on it's "last legs". I would point out that several of the largest and most well-known G/Os have, within the past few years, diversified into aspects of "eco-tourism". I think that they are well aware that change is coming and thus make sound business decisions.

I have no issue with non-consumptive foreign use of B.C. resources as long as B.C. residents are not excluded from OUR wilderness, parks or traditional activities. Check the reservation situation at the "Slocan Chief" cabin in Kokanee Glacier Park for an example of what I am concerned about.

[tmarschall]

WOW!!!! I actually get a chance to go to the bush for a couple days and look what I come back to?? Very intersting thread for sure. It is a very complex issue with too many aspects to cover. I have agreements and disagreements with many of the posts here, but the one I would like Bigwhitey to consider and comment on, is his statement about G/O's being part of "Free Enterprise". Having never taken any business courses, I don't know the business definition of "Free Enterprise", but to a simple minded person as myself, I kinda think of it as operating a business for profit free from strings or attachments, or something along these lines. I do not see the G/O's as being free, since their business is dependent on government quotas, tags issued directly to them. By contrast, south of the 49th, hunters are issued tags by a form of LEH drawing. The G/O's here get their business from the hunters, not the government. Good G/O's will stay in business because they provide a good service, not because they lobby the governemnt for tags. The issue of canadian G/O's being tied to a certain area is another aspect of the business that doesn't sound like "Free Enterprise". As stated in another thread on this topic, I know a guide here who guides in New Mexico, Colorado, Alaska and Africa, maybe a few other states depending on client demands. I know in Canada the guiding business has evolved differently than down here. But I see the government involvement in the G/O business, and the fallout therefrom, has caused a division between them and a lot of resident hunters. A division that I have not seen down here. I have seen government involvement in other businesses down here and things usually do get all fowled up. True "Free Enterprise" businesses can do a much better job for all concerned. So Bigwhitey, I really would appreciate your comments. I'm relatively new to the forum myself, but hardly new to wildlife management and hunting. Let me close with some seemingly appropriate words of advice given to the class by one of my wildlife management professors... "The science of managing wildlife is easy, managing people is where the problems arise"... Welcome to the board Bigwhitey... Tom

[bigwhiteys]

Hey Tom,

Good Questions...

Guide/Outfitters are most definitely a part of "Free Entreprise" they are nothing more than outdoor entreprenuers if you will. Some of have been in the business for generations others just starting out... like any other niche market in the world. (hunting is a niche market)

You are correct though... the term "Free" may not be the best as they (G/O's) are tied down by rules, regulations and quotas just like you state.

"Free Enterprise" just seemed like the words for me to use at the time. As anyone who owns their own business is essentially engaging in Free Enterprise are they not?

My Grandpa used to say that "You're either in this (outfitting) for the money or the lifestyle" And I can tell you he didn't retire rich from the hunting business. He was in it for the lifestyle. Was it "Free Enterprise" you bet! He was in business for himself doing something that he loved and had a serious passion for.

When an outfitter leases territory from the crown I don't see it as any different then someone leasing retail space for a store... Other than a retail space would be locked up when not in use... And I hardly see the G/O's locking out the residents? I have never experienced it. Obviously others seem to have had rough experiences.


I would point out that several of the largest and most well-known G/Os have, within the past few years, diversified into aspects of "eco-tourism". I think that they are well aware that change is coming and thus make sound business decisions.

Kutenay, I wouldn't remotely take this as outfitters seeing the impending doom on the horizon and think you're being foolish to even assume that. Any savvy business person obviously see's the benefit of "diversification" in their business/service offerings. That's common business sense and an additional revenue stream for the outfitter.

Good on them!

Happy Hunting!
Carl

[Ridge-Runner]

Interesting…you got to love the rational behind the sales pitch? Sadly there is only so much wildlife for the consumptive users in this province, that’s reality. The priority the current government has allocated for wildlife usage is as follows, 1st First Nations, 2nd resident hunters, and 3rd guide outfitters, so for one organization to acquire more, one of the groups will have to forfeit some of their portion, plain and simple. It is interesting when you look at the overall harvests of the more sensitive or lucrative species (ie grizzlies, sheep, and goats) you can almost reverse the latter listed priorities? Is this reasonable, I suppose if everyone is in favor of it? Currently the government is working on using the economic potential of individual species to determine allocations between residents and outfitter’s, this is of real concern with the dwindling resident hunter numbers over the long term. Reducing resident hunter harvests by restricting opportunity (trophy hunting) will only reduce hunter numbers further.

One word of caution, beware of sheep dressed in sheep’s clothing.


Cheers, RR

[Steeleco]

Our challenges of the future lie not in a battle between Guide Outfitters and Resident Hunters. Together we could actually stand a chance to win against the ant-hunting movement! But only if all of us pull on the same rope in the same direction!!!

Now that is the best idea I've read here so far. All of us on each side love to hunt and are concerned with the animal welfare, we need to fight together against the ANTI'S

[kutenay]

I won't discuss the historical development of B.C./Canada in respect of "free enterprise" which was NOT the motivating force behind said development as it is peripheral to the topic at hand. Since I actually have owned a proprietorship, managed another and am a member of a family that has owned a variety of businesses in B.C. for almost 136 consecutive years, I may have some realtime knowledge of this. I have now hunted for over 40 years and in every area of this province, so, since this includes trips with G/Os, I may also know a bit about their activities; my statement re: diversification came directly from two of the most famous G/Os in the M/K area and was made to me, in person.

As to G/Os ...locking out residents..., this has frequently occurred in the M/K area and is going on now. It takes the form of exclusionary contracts with air taxi services that prevent air access to much of the finest hunting within the M/K area now protected by specific legislation; this results in resident hunting being sharply curtailed. One of the foremost G/Os in that area deliberately blocked planes from landing on a government controlled airstrip which caused danger to the pilot and occupants, I was told this in the camp of that G/O at the site by one of those involved and it was subsequently featured in an article in the "Vancouver Sun".

This G/O outfit has a substantial degree of foreign ownership by a firm in Tennessee, who I suspect may just have some say in daily operations policy in order to protect their "investment". This directly impacts on residents abilities to hunt this area and the purchase of the "packer's" licence for this area by this G/O gives this outfit even greater ability to deny residents access to OUR wildlife.

We residents are in danger of being reduced to beggars in our own land, by the totally indefensible demands of the Aboriginals and by the activites of many of the major G/Os, often those with substantial foreign ownership; is this what we want? The "antis" are NOT as great a threat as these two groups are and are far easier to defeat, BUT, loud, aggressive rants about "huggers" is not, IMHO, the best way to do this. IF, "antis" can obtain G/O territories by purchase, why not the B.C.W.F., for example?

In the case of the Bison man, Lynn Ross, it seems to me that his territory was NOT available upon retirement to the local folks, it was given to an Aboriginal group to "manage". It is obvious to me that this situation will become commonplace when the next government change happens and this will be a major part of the end of foreign "trophy" hunting for reasons that I consider obvious. To fight this and win, we need to start now to change the situation in order to keep hunting viable for most, not merely wealthy,residents AND to keep it socially acceptable to the majority of the public, which foreign "trophy" hunting currently is not.

We can argue, cuss, snarl and whine, at the end of the day and that is coming very soon, things are going to change here in B.C. and we need to protect our own interests now. To me, that means putting residents first and eliminating foreign influences in disposal of OUR resource(s).

[tmarschall]

Bigwhitey, I think you got most of my point. The anology of leasing space in a store is very accurate. When the store is locked up at night, just consider that as the non-shooting hours. No one is supposed to be hunting then. But explore the anology a bit further. The seller invests money to lease the best space in the store to gain market advantage. The company with the most capital to invest will have the best market advantage. Smaller companies are severly disadvantaged. You could even make the same anology with walmart. They have the capital to invest large stores that drive out many small businesses. The way the G/O business is set up in Canada is very similar. What Kutenay is raving about is the foreign investments that allow G/O's to gain the "market advantage". Granted, some G/O's may still operate like the good old mom and pop shops. But it is the system that lends itself to in-equality. Here in the states, a G/O company buys a license from the state. There is no reserved area of the state to set up operations. Everyone has equal access to the "store". With that being said, some G/O's here have "tied up" some privately owned ranches and have put much game out of the reach of the average citizen. The competition for gaining market advantage is a constant. The difference here is they are not able to gain advantage on government owned land.

To further apply the anology, getting quotas from the government is like the government setting the limit on how much space you may lease in any given store. The government should only set the limit on the size of the store. The "free market" should determine who sells the most goods. The quotas going directly to the G/O's results in the G/O's wanting to lobby for game laws that benefit their business and maybe not benifit the store for the rest of the shoppers. The proposed region 5 change is one such example. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned a longer bow season. 10 days is uterly ludicris. Having the rifle season as long as it is and hunting during the rut (especially where elk are concerned) is indicative of G/O influence on game laws.

It sounds like your Grandpa was a reasonable business man second, and a hunter first. He left you with a wonderful heritage to take to the future, as did mine. But times change everything and today's world is not the same as he endured. Changes, sometimes difficult ones, should be made to keep hunting the rich heritage that it should be.

Well, I hope some of this makes sense. I should probably come back and edit this tomorrow when the effects of the champagne wear off. Happy New Years everyone.... Tom

[willy442]

Kutenay: Please stop repeating hear say. The case of the Outfitter that interfered with the plane's landing on the airstrip and also lake, has long since passed. The family operation you are refering to has paid thier due's by loosing the said guide area back to the province or tax payer which ever you prefer. Also as in the Lynn Ross case.

As for nonresident hunting in B.C., it will never come to an end. You will over time see a smaller over all harvest by both resident and nonresidents. GO's know and understand this, hence the diversity now taking place in most opperation's. Are you aware that G/O's have tenure's on these area's. These people have a far more vested interest in the management of these area's, than most. I agree the action's of the past, by Lynn Ross, Frank Cooke and a couple of others was indeed carried to the extreme. Just as you are carring your views now. I belive that, by your statements you must not have children or grandchildren that are outdoorsman and wish to hunt. Otherwise you would join force's with the people that have an interest such as FNAWS, RMEF, SCI, DU and maybe even the GOABC. May I also ad that, these clubs are partially funded, by GO's and donated hunts. These funds are spent doing the studies that you read about and QUOTE.

You worked for the Alberta Forest Service. Do you recall the problem's and loss of hunting opportunities, when they dissolved the guide area's there? Are you aware how thier system now works? Outfitters now bid at auction for tags. It has totally gone to a money system. I would hate to see a similar situation in B.C. Things like this can and will happen if the hunters of this fine province fail to join forces and come forward as a strong voice.

As for my spelling it might not be up to par with your's. However when it come's to what I have seen and learned in the wild. It is all first hand, not read about in studies and heard about down at the local coffee shop.

Bill

[kutenay]

As I said, my information on the events I referred to was given to me, by one of those directly involved in the exact hunting camp where these events took place. This is NOT ...hearsay... as anyone conversant with the correct use of that term would realize. I don't go to coffee shops, never have and I only post on what I have experienced or what recognized, professionals in wildlife/forestry tell me. This includes personal conversations, over the past four decades, with Dr. Ian McTaggert-Cowan, Dr. Peter Wood, Dr. Bruce Fraser, Dr. Valerius Geist, Dr. Vladimer Krajina and Dr. James Hatter as well as divers other biologists, foresters and "managers".

I have also learned much of what I base my opinions on while ...in the wild... as I have said; this includes several, solo, stints of living in remote wilderness for three months without any break and with only one aerial supply trip. My "old-timer" bush mentors were guys who, in many cases started their bush lives in B.C. before WWI, they include some very well-known men, such as the late "Billy" Clarke of Howser, B.C., the late Russell Fletcher of Nelson, B.C., Sam Kania of Winlaw, B.C., Jimmy Clark of Fernie, B.C. and Alfie Barnes of Corbin, B.C. Anybody who has resided in these areas will attest that these guys were all the genuine article as far as being bushmen is concerned.

During my employment with the A.F.S., I had nothing to do with anything other than my specific duties and thus will not comment on policies not within my purview as I do not talk about things I have not had first-hand experience of. I did discuss this issue with a couple of Alberta Environment biologists at Hinton, circa 1990-91 and with Gary Kruger, a G/O north of there as well; I also talked with working guides while stationed at Wabasca-Demarais and extensively with many local Aboriginal hunters/trappers. Since I am not an Albertan, I do not offer my opinions on how they should manage THEIR situation.

The access situation(s) I referred are currently going on and I do not accept the foreign investments/opinons/management styles currently involved in B.C. as this is OUR land, OUR wildlife and OUR decision to make. I respect everyone's right to their opinion as each and every British Columbian has an EQUAL right to our resources and cooperation is vital to developing the best possible deal for all involved. I refuse to engage in the use of terms such as ...raving... with respect to other poster's as this does not further this important discussion. It's not up to foreigners to tell us what to do in our land, in any event.

This is all I have to say on this thread, I think that I have made the point concerning OUR resident rights and that is what I think is crucial. This would not have even arisen if the CCGOA had not attempted to alter harvest quotas in such a self-serving fashion; I think that this alone demonstrates who is REALLY concerned about the rights of the average B.C. hunter and the G/Os ain't it!

Since I now have to go and paint the friggin' basement, I want to wish everyone Happy New Year and the best hunting possible in 2006!

[houndogger]

Well it is about time!