English labs

[Rob]

A buddy of mine is keen on an English Labrador. Anyone know a breeded in B.C? He figures the english is a bit calmer than the american? Thanks Rob

[835]

in my experiance they are calmer i have a american field dog and my dad had a brittish. there is a lady in princeton who is breedong yellows and choc. There is another in cedar on the island. google lab breeders bc and start there. ask the breeder about other breeders there are some good doge that dont have web sites. you can also ship dogs as well my uncle used to breed springers, he had a dog shipped from wisconsin.
http://www.bridgecreeklabs.com/id11.html
here is one

[dutchie]

I would not say they are calmer, but they are shorter.

My sister has a English Black Lab, and a good friend of mine has a English Yellow lab. One thing I will say is because they are more of a show dog you REALLY REALLY have to be on top of the breeder and making sure there is no HD.

Both my sister and my friends dog has Hip Dysplacia ( My friends dog Kent is 18 months old and he will have to be put down this fall)

Is it the temperment that he is looking for or the size?

I am taking care of one of my friends Duck Toller, which are a little smaller then a English Lab but he only has little brusts of energy and Shed more then any other dog I know!!! He is not a huge fan of listeneing to what you want him to do tho. He listens very well to Matt, Janna and Myself but no one else... REALLY REALLY COOL DOG THO

I am a firm beliver that if you go to the source of the breed (England) then you will get a true English Lab, or specialized clubs in NA that adhere to the strict breeding program of the English Lab. and for a well bred dog the specialized clubs will not charge a fortune. With shipping included you will end up paying less then a "show" dog from BC.

If you just want to pick a dog based on location you are missing out on top quality dogs. The initial cost of buying a dog is the lowest cost, it costs the same to feed a dog with HD and it takes more time to train a dog with no instinct to listen, hunt, ect. but a Dog with HD or eye, elbow, joint, heart ect problems will be harder on you and the family.

Dutchie

[Iron Glove]

I am taking care of one of my friends Duck Toller, which are a little smaller then a English Lab but he only has little brusts of energy and Shed more then any other dog I know!!! He is not a huge fan of listeneing to what you want him to do tho. He listens very well to Matt, Janna and Myself but no one else... REALLY REALLY COOL DOG THO
Dutchie

Ha ha, as a Toller owner and "Grampa" of a Lab I can attest to what you say. :grin:
Re the lab, our Daughter got her Chocolate from White Kennels or something like that just outside of Princeton. Real nice dog (tho' not near as smart or good looking as our Toller) and is smallish in size as many of their litters are. I don't know if its a Brit or an American tho'.

[Busterbrown]

A buddy of mine is keen on an English Labrador. Anyone know a breeded in B.C? He figures the english is a bit calmer than the american? Thanks Rob

WTF is an English Lab??? Does it bark with an accsent?The disposition of a dog will be determined by genetics and the environment it lives in. To think that because it is "english" it will be calmer might not be accurate. I think your friend would be better served looking for a well bred lab reguardless to where it is from. Many good breeders here in BC.

[835]

there are major differances between these dogs. Looks being the largest
disposition and purpose these things make a differance.
it is the genetics american and english/british.
when you are picking a dog you have to start the elimination process somewhere
An english lab is the one with the big blocky head

[Busterbrown]

Are you suggesting that all labs with big,blocky heads are "english" ?? Their are MANY lab breedings here in NA that produce dogs with big heads and shorter legs. These are most commonly lines which are bred for show. The dogs that have many generations of Field breedings at times would not fit the breed standard as they may be too tall and/or would look too lean to appeal to most show judges. A lab, is a lab, is a lab, does not matter if it was born here , in England or on Mars it is a Labrador Retriever.Period

[835]

not true
yes most blockyhead labs come from english lines.
and you have also perfectly described a american field dog as well.
where it was borne has absolutly nothing to do with it.

[Barracuda]

actually depending on what the breed standards are for the kennel club it can differ .

I see many labs now that are very differnt then what they were in fact i see many that seem better suited for fly ball rather then hunting.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/109

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/LabradorRetriever

http://www.ckc.ca/en/Portals/0/pdf/breeds/RTL.pdf

http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/

[ROEBUCK]

WTF is an English Lab??? Does it bark with an accsent?The disposition of a dog will be determined by genetics and the environment it lives in. To think that because it is "english" it will be calmer might not be accurate. I think your friend would be better served looking for a well bred lab reguardless to where it is from. Many good breeders here in BC.
the most sensible post on this thread
Growing up hunting in britain with many labs .there all differant some are calm most are not, just like most gundogs.they come in all shapes and sizes.depends on there lines.dont forget labs originate in canada!so the true lab will be from here!go buy a nice one here in bc! choose 1 with good parents and a good working backround and some papers and you wont go wrong.Personally i dont care for labs much as im a english springer spaniel fan,whom i consider a much more all round gundog.who will keep on hunting long after the labs have gone back to the truck exausted.Ive hunted with both on more occasions than i care to mention
and the spaniels put more birds in the bag,,.when upland game hunting!
and as many when hunting migratory from the blind,,

[Marc]

just like there are spits in lines between hunting and show lines with Labradors there is a distinction between American and British labs. Most noticeably their size and head. In this picture the little guy is 4 years old dog from the states. I think it's a male but I may be wrong. The big guy on the log is a male who comes from British stock and would have been around 9 years old. A noticeable difference in size. As for the difference in temperament I've no clue if one is less hyper then the next. Nash was pretty laid back and was an awesome hunting retriever, never did any trials with just strictly hunting.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Marc_Jamie_Standing.jpg

[ROEBUCK]

in britain know you do not come across many yellow,or chocalet labs in the hunting field as considered better show dogs and not so good hunting dogs.not sure if thats true! but lots of black labs with large frames as well suited to migratory retrieving, but never found them to be much good for flushing upland birds!.my spaniel "benny" helped me get my limit today on ruffies.!!!

[Busterbrown]

just like there are spits in lines between hunting and show lines with Labradors there is a distinction between American and British labs. Most noticeably their size and head. In this picture the little guy is 4 years old dog from the states. I think it's a male but I may be wrong. The big guy on the log is a male who comes from British stock and would have been around 9 years old. A noticeable difference in size. As for the difference in temperament I've no clue if one is less hyper then the next. Nash was pretty laid back and was an awesome hunting retriever, never did any trials with just strictly hunting.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Marc_Jamie_Standing.jpg

Ther is NO distinction between " English" Labs and other dogs from NA or any where else in the world. Labs originated in Canada hence the name Labrador Retriever. Big thick bodied retrievers are a result of breeding two big bodied retreivers together. This usually happens in show lines of breeding. They usually do not have the athletic ability required to compete at the highest level, that is why top level Field Trial dogs tend to be taller and leaner. I will say it again alab is a Lab is a Lab, no such beast as a "english Lab"

[835]

ok ok ok i give i give you must be right there is no differance

[ROEBUCK]

and on another note!
it dont make a lot of differance
on how calm a gundog is!
my dog daisy is about as crazy as a dog could ever be,but she will find any dead birds on the marsh or in the woods long after the other dogs have given up!

[dutchie]

Are you suggesting that all labs with big,blocky heads are "english" ?? Their are MANY lab breedings here in NA that produce dogs with big heads and shorter legs. These are most commonly lines which are bred for show. The dogs that have many generations of Field breedings at times would not fit the breed standard as they may be too tall and/or would look too lean to appeal to most show judges. A lab, is a lab, is a lab, does not matter if it was born here , in England or on Mars it is a Labrador Retriever.Period

I will disagree with a lab is a lab is a lab... The reason why is because of the brood stock that the litters are coming from are much different. English labs are more stout with a blockier head. This is concidered a show dog but BECAUSE the standards were not set at the begining of breed development. Thats why you will see very few English labs in trials ect...

If the saying a Lab is a Lab is a Lab is completly discrediting the good breeders with moral and standards for thier dogs and saying anyone can do it, which I do not believe is the case. For a extreme waterfowler a good breeder is just as important as a good vet. They are very tough to replace because of the years of breed development that they go through, getting rid of recessive Genes lame bitch's bad stud dogs ect...

In dog shows they do not care about HD, Elbow problems all it is, is the gerneral appearance of the animal. discovery a documentery on the UK Kennel club and thier show dogs. And it was based off a top prize winning dog that actually had a genetic defect of a skull that was too small for the dogs brain and it had ceiziers. After the genetic defect was found out the dog breed 36 times because this dog gave the breed a new standard of a smaller head.

This is the exact probelm with people that are buying a hunting dog from a show breeder. You never know what problems are going to rear up in your dog.


not true
yes most blockyhead labs come from english lines.
and you have also perfectly described a american field dog as well.
where it was borne has absolutly nothing to do with it.

I will agree with this statment. My dog is directly from German Lines, Bred in Germany, papered in Germany, but was borne in Illinois.

The differance is what the dogs genetic make up is not that he was borne.

The genetic make up of my dog is much different then the German Shorthair Pointer. But if you translate Deustch Kurzhaar it is German Shorthair... The differance is that in 1905 the Americans brought over a dog to hunt Pheseant and they added alot more of the strong running English Pointer, which gave the dog a more stream lined chest and a thicker body (this is why a German shorthair POINTER not a Deustch Kurzhaar... although they look almost Identical.) Americans also stopped training them in water work, and blood tracking work to focus on the pointing work. This is why GSP's do not like water that much.

Dutchie

[ROEBUCK]

The genetic make up of my dog is much different then the German Shorthair Pointer. But if you translate Deustch Kurzhaar it is German Shorthair... The differance is that in 1905 the Americans brought over a dog to hunt Pheseant and they added alot more of the strong running English Pointer, which gave the dog a more stream lined chest and a thicker body (this is why a German shorthair POINTER not a Deustch Kurzhaar... although they look almost Identical.) Americans also stopped training them in water work, and blood tracking work to focus on the pointing work.
This is why GSP's do not like water that much.
and because there so thin coated and get cold too quick!and freeze up when there wet!
Dutchie[/quote]

[Kasomor]

I am taking care of one of my friends Duck Toller, which are a little smaller then a English Lab but he only has little brusts of energy and Shed more then any other dog I know!!! He is not a huge fan of listeneing to what you want him to do tho. He listens very well to Matt, Janna and Myself but no one else... REALLY REALLY COOL DOG THO

Dutchie

Had to laugh when I read your desription of your friends duck toller and wonder how many tollers you have actually met?

Your friends dog with "little bursts of energy" is not typical of the breed at all. The vast majority can be described as a border collie that retrievers ducks and/or a Golden Retriever on crack! :razz:

They are HIGH energy, retrieving machines in a small package. Most breeders talk extensivley to puppy buyers to ensure they are aware of this fact since there are a lot of people who can't live with that. Tollers are taking over in the agility ring because they are very fast, smart, smaller and can run numerous runs successfully in a day without slowing down. They will never take over in the field because labs rule in that venue but tollers are fabulous hunting and Hunt Test dogs.

It is a breed traight that Tollers tend not to be everyone's best friend. They are easy to train to do what ever their FAMILY wants.

Dosen't mean they don't like you but what's in it for them to listen to you? They just don't care if Joe-Blow wants to pet them. I like it that my dogs won't go with just anyone, while I could steal the majority of labs or goldens around here with no problem and they wouldn't even remember their former lives. :wink:

If your friends dog is shedding more than anyother dog you have known, he is either;

a. blowing coat which double coated breeds do twice per year and needs to be combed more. HELLO, labs shed twice per year too their coat is just shorter

b. he may have a thyroid issue.... which goes hand in hand with the little energy that you describe.

If anyone wants to meet a bunch of tollers and see what the breed is typically like. The annual BC Toller Picnic is Sat. Sept. 12 at Hayward Lake in Mission in the Off-Leash Dog Area.

Oh, and to keep this on topic.... there is no such thing as English Labs. There is a breed split in labs as there is in goldens. Heavier, shorter legged labs, fondly knows as "pigadors" can be found in the show ring. Long legged, lean, fast, ground gobbling labs can be found at Field Trials or being highly succesful in the obedience ring.

Regards,
Kasomor NSDTR

[Iron Glove]

Kasomar tells it like it is with Tollers. :D
Our Daughter who was a Vet Assistant at the time and had experience with lots of breeds, recommended the Toller to us and it's been almost 7 years now of love and fun, including agility trials, albeit always knowledgable that the true head of our family is a 30 lb. red head that will obey our every command. If and when she pleases. :roll:
When Daughter and her man decided to get a mutt of their own, they chose a Lab ( Chocolate "American" from Princeton). I felt slighted that she would not get a Toller like us, but she said; "Dad, I don't want a dog that can think." :biggrin:
Their Lab is a great dog, she retrieves like crazy and follows our commands way better than our Toller. They watch her diet closely to avoid the common Lab malady referred to as "Flabrador".
If we had it to do all over again we still would have the Toller but a Lab would be a close second. Two great Canadian dogs.

[Kasomor]

In dog shows they do not care about HD, Elbow problems all it is, is the gerneral appearance of the animal. discovery a documentery on the UK Kennel club and thier show dogs. And it was based off a top prize winning dog that actually had a genetic defect of a skull that was too small for the dogs brain and it had ceiziers. After the genetic defect was found out the dog breed 36 times because this dog gave the breed a new standard of a smaller head.

This is the exact probelm with people that are buying a hunting dog from a show breeder. You never know what problems are going to rear up in your dog.

Dutchie

Whoa there Dutchie!

We're not talking King Charles Cavalier Spaniels here; the breed that you are referring too in BBC Documentary. We are talking retrievers.

But the purpose of a dog show is to prove that your dog meets the breed standard not that it is free of genetic defects. That's what health clearances are for. AND those people choose to breed to that dog, even knowing that he had a skull that was too small for his brain. Somethimes I think that peoples brains are too small in for their skull!:biggrin:

Bearing that in mind not all show dogs are bred and not all breeding dogs are show dogs however the Lab and Golden Club of BC/ Canada (and the NSDTRCC) all have a very strict Code of Ethics that must be followed if you are a club member and you choose to breed your dog.

Those COE includes all kinds of health tests that must be passed before breeding that show dog or FIELD dog. Most reputable breeders in B.C. and across Canada will belong to their parent club. If they don't, I want to know why. It's not a perfect system of course because there are some breeders who slip through the cracks.

There is also on line data bases maintained for the three breeds mentioned so that the puppy buying public can check up on what their breeder is telling them.

Anyone who buys any retriever with out seeing the health clearances of the dogs, whether it is from show, field, or a mix of both in the pedigree is just plain ignorant.

Most breeders with a miniority field breed are not split into a "show" breeder or "field" breeder. They breed all-round dogs that they prove in the show ring, in the field and are hunted too. They also have all their health clearances because puppy buyers are better informed. 8)

I'd be more concerned that the puppy from a "show" breeder doesn't have what it takes to work in the field.

[Marc]

Ther is NO distinction between " English" Labs and other dogs from NA or any where else in the world. Labs originated in Canada hence the name Labrador Retriever.

This is not entirely true. The Labrador Retriever got it's name from Canada but it was St Johns dogs that were taken from Newfoundland Island back to England where they developed the breed over a period of 117 years before the first lab was registered in the USA.

Here is a good read on the history of the breed.

http://www.alllabs.com/labrador_retriever_history.htm

[dutchie]

Whoa there Dutchie!

We're not talking King Charles Cavalier Spaniels here; the breed that you are referring too in BBC Documentary. We are talking retrievers.

But the purpose of a dog show is to prove that your dog meets the breed standard not that it is free of genetic defects. That's what health clearances are for. AND those people choose to breed to that dog, even knowing that he had a skull that was too small for his brain. Somethimes I think that peoples brains are too small in for their skull!:biggrin:

Bearing that in mind not all show dogs are bred and not all breeding dogs are show dogs however the Lab and Golden Club of BC/ Canada (and the NSDTRCC) all have a very strict Code of Ethics that must be followed if you are a club member and you choose to breed your dog.

Those COE includes all kinds of health tests that must be passed before breeding that show dog or FIELD dog. Most reputable breeders in B.C. and across Canada will belong to their parent club. If they don't, I want to know why. It's not a perfect system of course because there are some breeders who slip through the cracks.

There is also on line data bases maintained for the three breeds mentioned so that the puppy buying public can check up on what their breeder is telling them.

Anyone who buys any retriever with out seeing the health clearances of the dogs, whether it is from show, field, or a mix of both in the pedigree is just plain ignorant.

Most breeders with a miniority field breed are not split into a "show" breeder or "field" breeder. They breed all-round dogs that they prove in the show ring, in the field and are hunted too. They also have all their health clearances because puppy buyers are better informed. 8)

I'd be more concerned that the puppy from a "show" breeder doesn't have what it takes to work in the field.

I think that I should have been a little more discriptive ith the Kennel clubs I was talking about.

I have found that the AKC standards change fairly regularly. See the first rib, see 3 ribs, shallow chest, deep chest, Squared head, pointy head, tail docked on the 3rd bone, tail docked on the 5th bone, can have a missing tooth, can have minor bit defect, no bite defect, High arches on thier feet, flatter foot... the list goes on for the GSP/GWP.. This is in show not Field trial. The majority of research I have done has been on the GSP and or the GWP. The AKC standards change from the NAVHDA standard and are 100% different from the German Standard.

Now this is a personal thing but I can't stand how CKC and AKC make the dogs compete against eachother, because this is how the standards are able to change.

I think that a dog should be tested against a standard and have a rating from 1-5 or 1-10... none of this #1 dog in canada, #1 in NA , #1 in the world ect... if there are 5 perfect dogs in a show then they should all get the same "title". That would be more a performance based test rather then a "well we have to pick a winner" kind of test. But the this is not about the dogs so much as it is about the money for some people.

NSDTRCC is a specialized breed club that upholds standards to the dogs which is somthing that I support 100%. A breed show with a qualified Judge in a specialized breed club would be of use.

And i just want to make it clear that Leo (the Toller) is a wicked dog, He is lots of fun, and Him and my dog get along so well, he is great with kids, and has a A+ personality!

Dutchie

[Busterbrown]

Niether the CKC or the AKC recognise an "English " lab.There is NO such purebred animal. We have 4 Labs on our truck. One "BC Lab",he is chocolate,tall lean ,and likes to eat salmon. Another chocolate which is a "US" LAB, from Wisconsin, he is tall and stocky with a large blocky head, he likes to run in wheat fields and he does not know where England is , even though he has the large blocky head. A chocolate female which is a "Poco" lab . Our fourth is a "Montana" lab . He loves the mountains. I did not realize there were so many different types of labs!!! I checked All the reg papers from these animals and under breed type it says Labrador Retriever. What gives??

[Kasomor]

Niether the CKC or the AKC recognise an "English " lab.There is NO such purebred animal. We have 4 Labs on our truck. One "BC Lab",he is chocolate,tall lean ,and likes to eat salmon. Another chocolate which is a "US" LAB, from Wisconsin, he is tall and stocky with a large blocky head, he likes to run in wheat fields and he does not know where England is , even though he has the large blocky head. A chocolate female which is a "Poco" lab . Our fourth is a "Montana" lab . He loves the mountains. I did not realize there were so many different types of labs!!! I checked All the reg papers from these animals and under breed type it says Labrador Retriever. What gives??

Gee...I was waiting for the punch line;)

Ya, know..."what do you get when you cross a British lab with an US lab?":eek:

[Busterbrown]

Gee...I was waiting for the punch line;)

Ya, know..."what do you get when you cross a British lab with an US lab?":eek:

You get a tall, fit, lean Labrador retriever with bad teeth and barks with an English acsent!!!!

[Jimsue]

Have you ever seen an English Field Trial? its like a drive shoot, birds and shots all over the place. A North American field trial dog would not sit through it, on the other hand, the English dog would have a very hard time playing the NA style FT. NA style field dogs are bred for ability and drive not looks.