Region 5 Spike/Fork Moose Season

[Fisher-Dude]

What do ya think? Time for the MoE to get off their butts and give region 5 hunters a chance at a spike/fork instead of waiting 10 years to get a draw?

[Jagermeister]

It's long overdue. MOE must stop pandering to the Guides and Outfitters and the Indians. If the Indians start a blockade like the last time, then maybe we should start a blockade at the welfare office, liquor store and wherever else they may have chance to gather. Did I mention the bingo parlor?

[hunterofthedeer]

Ive seen tons of moose in region 5 no spike forks but i wasnt looking;-)

[chinooker]

Ive seen tons of moose in region 5 no spike forks but i wasnt looking;-)


back in the good old days when we had general open seasons in reg 5 I shot several moose that would have been legal spike fork bulls.

we had a spike fork season for one year and they shut it down just because the indians blockaded it.

its high time the provincial goverment stood up to these native terrorists and arrested them for putting up road blocks just like anyone else that breaks the law.

I'm tired of being a second rate citizen in my own province I was born here to:mad:

[Fisher-Dude]

Was the cancelled spike/fork in 2004 or 2005? Anyone have any old regs?

[silvicon]

there are not enough mose in region 5 to go around.
all the wolves and indians did a number on the population.
why a spike/fork season? to kill off the future?
some of you guys are worse than idians when it comes to hunting.

[willyqbc]

Silvicon.....there are plenty of moose to go around in region 5.... IF you know where to look. The biggest hit to the moose population here was a big die-off due to ticks about a decade ago and for a time the moose population definately was hurtin but has rebounded nicely. I think for the last 5 years running I have taken or helped friends take their bull on the first or second day of their draw, heck...last year we took the biggest of 4 bulls hanging together. During the brief immy season we had here I went out with my Dad and kid and we popped one first day, pretty hard to believe that much success that quickly if the population is in trouble. The natives are taking as much as they always have and predation may be up a bit, but to me the biggest change has to do with the logging practices, particularly around the quesnel area. With process at the stump logging all the great stuff that the moose love to eat in fresh cutblocks is suppressed and they just aren't feeding out in the open blocks like they used to, hence they are not the easy pickins they used to be.....doesn't mean they are not here. If they opened an immy season here, those who have adapted their hunting style to suit current conditions would do just fine.

Just my opinion
Chris

[GoatGuy]

Silvicon.....there are plenty of moose to go around in region 5.... IF you know where to look. The biggest hit to the moose population here was a big die-off due to ticks about a decade ago and for a time the moose population definately was hurtin but has rebounded nicely. I think for the last 5 years running I have taken or helped friends take their bull on the first or second day of their draw, heck...last year we took the biggest of 4 bulls hanging together. During the brief immy season we had here I went out with my Dad and kid and we popped one first day, pretty hard to believe that much success that quickly if the population is in trouble. The natives are taking as much as they always have and predation may be up a bit, but to me the biggest change has to do with the logging practices, particularly around the quesnel area. With process at the stump logging all the great stuff that the moose love to eat in fresh cutblocks is suppressed and they just aren't feeding out in the open blocks like they used to, hence they are not the easy pickins they used to be.....doesn't mean they are not here. If they opened an immy season here, those who have adapted their hunting style to suit current conditions would do just fine.

Just my opinion
Chris

Chris,

You need to realize what silvicon does for a living. :wink:

[willyqbc]

GG... i kind of figured what he did for a living with a name like silvicon!!haha! That being said, foresters do not neccessarily know how changing logging practices will change animal patterns within a certain area...I'm sure some do but I'm also sure some don't. I'm not speaking of Silvicon in particular as i don't know him and just happened to respond to his post instead of a few others because it was the last one posted. Anyway, point I was trying to make is that the moose are here, we have just had to adapt a bit to find them!!

Just my opinion
Chris

[Fisher-Dude]

Chris, think more along the lines of:

G

U

I

D

E

;)

[moosinaround]

I hunt the northern part of region 5. I actually see lots of moose every time I go out. Granted it is in Nov, and we are hunting Mule deer, I would entertain hunting moose here, as I do know the area ok-well. I am no moose population expert, but if the numbers will support a season, then why not? Political/user group pressure are not good enough reasons. Keep it scientific, not political, and do what is best for the resource!! Moosin

[willyqbc]

Chris, think more along the lines of:

G

U

I

D

E

:wink:


HAHA....okay, not enough coffee for me this morning...brain is not firing on all cylenders!!!

Chris

[Moosehunter64]

The Spike Fork season in region 5 was in 2004.I was up there when they closed it and I was some pee,d off.I have hunted region 5 for over 20 years and have only seen 3 bulls that would be considered a spike fork but there is no lack of moose in the area.We got a shared hunt draw last year and got our moose and we saw more cows and calfs than we ever have up there.I definitly feel its time for a spike fork season.Oh by the way we got drawn again this year so so much for the enhanced draw odds.The odds in the area we got our draws for were 8 to 1.

[Gunner]

All the talk in the world isn't going to get us a spike/fork moose season in Reg.5.I'm all for it,but the Natives hold the trump card,and they will not allow it.They are supported by the GO's,and as far as I'm concerned the Regional Manager in Reg.5 is just a GO bootlicker.Neither his Moose harvest or the new mule dear seasons are dictated by conservation concerns.This is common to all Regions,in Region 8 we have the GO's pushing for a reduction in the spike/fork season,and the Minister's refusal to allow a wolf season.It's all about politics and money,scientific game management and opportunities for Resident hunters are of no concern to the MOE these days, Gunner

[whitespringer]

Two seasons ago, spent time near 100 mile on a any bull hunt. We saw 11 cows, 2 calfs and the bull we finally shot. That was also after the rut. Didn't seem like any shortage there. I hope not because we got our draw for this year in the same area.:smile:

[Panda]

I heard somewhere that the problem with spike fork seasons is that about twice as many bulls are shot and left as are legally harvested... guys shoot, get up close, then realize its got an extra tine or two...

[Fisher-Dude]

I heard somewhere that the problem with spike fork seasons is that about twice as many bulls are shot and left as are legally harvested... guys shoot, get up close, then realize its got an extra tine or two...

Not true. The real rate is around 8 - 12% of legal harvest. It's taken into consideration when season lengths are determined as part of the allowable harvest.

[Jagermeister]

there are not enough mose in region 5 to go around.
all the wolves and indians did a number on the population.
why a spike/fork season? to kill off the future?
some of you guys are worse than idians when it comes to hunting.Silvicon, do you live in Region 5? And are you a guide as someone suggested?
FD, that brief immature bull opening was back in the late '90s. I moved from Quesnel in March 2006 and I know that opening was at the very least more than 5 years before I moved.
The last GOS for moose in 5 was prior to 1998, and that opening was from the 15th of Oct to the 31st. I'm thinking that the last such opening was 1995.
It warranted shutting the open GOS for moose down as that type of season concentrated too many hunters into 5 and the moose were just about annihilated. In the old days the season was from early September to the middle of November and the hunters were spread out over that time frame.
Once the government started consulting the 1st nations in the wildlife process, the G&Os saw an oppurtunity to use the FN;s to exclude the resident hunter from greater moose hunting opportunity, the same way they are skewing the mule deer opportunity for the resident hunter.
The G&Os tell the FN's that if there are more trophy hunts for them to sell to alien hunters, there will be more money and jobs for the FN's.
How can we win? We are diddled?
It's ironic, there were more hunters afield in the '60s, 70's and 80's and more hunting opportunity and it wasn't till the guides got region 7 into LEH when hunting in 5 started to backslide. IMO, you can blame it on the wildlife managers first and foremost, then the guides.

[hlram]

Funny, when I read these kind of post I sit back and think how hunters are getting less every year, yet the animal population must be getting larger. And almost everything is LEH. Yeh some guides are pretty greedy
and some natives.

[f350ps]

I'd love to see any GOS for Moose in Reg.5, be it immy or whatever. The last year for a GOS was 98' and there was no shortage of Bulls around that year for sure. I have heard lots of different opinions on the reasons why the move to LEH, everything from ticks to wolves to a slaughter and my conclusion is LEH= Money, plain and simple. K

[KevinB]

"I heard somewhere"



We should make up an official HBC t-shirt or hat or something with this saying printed on it. :-P

[TPK]

I just got this ...... thought it was appropriate for this thread ...


Excuses not good enough for hunters


Letters to the Editor
100 Mile House Free Press
August 18, 2009
http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_cariboo/100milefreepress/opinion/letters/53620852.html (http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_cariboo/100milefreepress/opinion/letters/53620852.html)


In the Aug. 5 article, “Ministry Explains Hunting Regs” by Joan Silver, the
Ministry of Environment claims that “if there was an open season on
immature bull moose [spike-fork], it is expected hunting pressure would be
high and harvest may not be sustainable.” The ministry then cites the
central location of the Cariboo, which “makes it a popular destination for
hunters from the Lower Mainland.”


Isn’t the last statement exactly what the tourist industry and the Chambers
of Commerce want to hear? Instead of seeing the positive and promoting the
proper use of our wildlife resources, the ministry is using the same old
tired excuses they have been using for years not to increase hunting
opportunities for residents such as opening the season for immature bulls
(spike-fork).


Region 3, the Thompson-Nicola, is even more “central” to the Lower Mainland
yet that does not prevent them from providing more open moose hunting
opportunities for BC residents. (They only need to add a calf season to
their spike-fork season to achieve the highly successful Omineca model).
Nor does it stop Region 4, the Kootenays, nor Region 7A, the Omineca nor
Region 8, the Okanagan from having open season for spike-fork bulls. No, my
fellow hunters, it is Region 5, Williams Lake, that is out of step in not
welcoming other BC hunters to enjoy the Cariboo and support local business.


They have other excuses besides the “central” location of the region for
doing nothing such as: we don’t have enough money in our budgets to monitor
the moose population (no less than any other region) or we don’t have
enough staff (other regions don’t either). They also claim to have more
First Nations people than any other Region (but a check of the Statistics
Canada website will show that Omineca and Thompson Nicola have similar or
greater numbers and they probably like to hunt and eat moose meat too).


We know that some local resident hunters don’t want more liberal moose
seasons. That is because they either don’t understand the science, or they
don’t want competition from “outsiders” during their moose hunt. But, I
ask, “what moose hunt? The one you win every 5 or 10 years”? Or are you
forced to go moose hunting in regions 3 or 7A because of the lack of
opportunities closer to home?


The ministry also uses the excuse that the guide-outfitters don’t want it.
It’s not that the guide-outfitters disagree with the science of a selective
moose harvesting strategy as much as they fear more competition from
resident hunters. These are all excuses to allow the ministry to avoid any
improvements to resident hunting.


The fact of the matter is that, except for a poorly executed, half-hearted
trial spike-fork moose season here for a few weeks five years ago, the
Wildlife Branch of the Ministry of Environment in Region 5 has been
stone-walling and don’t appear to want to do anything for their resident
hunters. They have been resisting the introduction of proven successful
deer and moose management strategies for years.


This is a wasted opportunity, not only for hunters, but for small business
operators and the region’s cattlemen who have been trying to get something
done about feeding too many deer at their expense for years. Then there is
the cost of all the highway collisions, and the occasional human injury or
tragic loss of life. The time to act is long overdue.


John Mihalicz
Lone Butte
President, Lone Butte Fish and Wildlife Association Vice-president, BC
Wildlife Federation, Cariboo-Chilcotin

[barry1974w]

To back up my vote, I think there should be more LEH's for region five, not a GOS (but maybe I just like having somewhere to go during calf season where I don't see a ton of other people).

[TimberPig]

Silvicon, do you live in Region 5? And are you a guide as someone suggested?
FD, that brief immature bull opening was back in the late '90s. I moved from Quesnel in March 2006 and I know that opening was at the very least more than 5 years before I moved.
The last GOS for moose in 5 was prior to 1998, and that opening was from the 15th of Oct to the 31st. I'm thinking that the last such opening was 1995.
It warranted shutting the open GOS for moose down as that type of season concentrated too many hunters into 5 and the moose were just about annihilated. In the old days the season was from early September to the middle of November and the hunters were spread out over that time frame.
Once the government started consulting the 1st nations in the wildlife process, the G&Os saw an oppurtunity to use the FN;s to exclude the resident hunter from greater moose hunting opportunity, the same way they are skewing the mule deer opportunity for the resident hunter.
The G&Os tell the FN's that if there are more trophy hunts for them to sell to alien hunters, there will be more money and jobs for the FN's.
How can we win? We are diddled?
It's ironic, there were more hunters afield in the '60s, 70's and 80's and more hunting opportunity and it wasn't till the guides got region 7 into LEH when hunting in 5 started to backslide. IMO, you can blame it on the wildlife managers first and foremost, then the guides.

The last GOS moose season in region 5 was actually 1998 (Oct 15-31).

1999 saw 100% LEH to allow better control over the harvest, with the intent to return it to an open season after the population recoverd (yeah right).

An attempt was made to open a spike fork season in 2004, which led to road blocks in the Chilcotin on Highway 20 after the slide just below Farwell Canyon killed off much of the salmon runs in the Chilcotin River system, so the natives figured they needed more moose to compensate. The season ended up being closed west of the Fraser, but not east of the Fraser, and did not return in 2005 and has been gone ever since.

[Jagermeister]

Thanks for setting it straight Timberpig. That Freepress article that TPK posted is quite enlightening. I think that the request for a spike fork opening should go beyond the regional wildlife manager because it affects the immature harvest in the other regions by applying undue pressure on them. Undoubtedly, there would be initial greater pressure on the region, but not everyone is going to rush to the area and besides, this can be offset by having a smaller opening. In due time, the the pressure would balance out between all regions. As far as I'm concerned, it would appear that there is collusion with the G/O and that is why there is no spike/fork opening.

[Fisher-Dude]

I remember one reason that the Williams Lake MoE cited in closing the spike/fork season in 2004 was that too many mule deer bucks were getting whacked by moose hunters. Go figure, the region 5 harvest stats show that's not true from 2003, 2004, and 2005 for mule deer buck harvest (4352, 3851, and 4719 mule deer bucks, respectively). Hmm, Rodger Stewart, it does in FACT show that mule deer bucks had LESS harvest during the spike/fork moose year. Jackass. :???:

[GoatGuy]

Thanks for setting it straight Timberpig. That Freepress article that TPK posted is quite enlightening. I think that the request for a spike fork opening should go beyond the regional wildlife manager because it affects the immature harvest in the other regions by applying undue pressure on them. Undoubtedly, there would be initial greater pressure on the region, but not everyone is going to rush to the area and besides, this can be offset by having a smaller opening. In due time, the the pressure would balance out between all regions. As far as I'm concerned, it would appear that there is collusion with the G/O and that is why there is no spike/fork opening.

The local hunters had to start a petition and send it to Victoria to have the immature season opened. The regional manager's words were: "not over my dead body."

That there is what we call management by 'science'...................................

[Jagermeister]

I was at the Quesnel meeting and after some "official" had some uncouth things to say in an email that was widely publisized, this promptly got his ass fired. I think he was a lawyer and he was hired immediately by some FN organization in PG. It was the power of the people that bagged him as the Minister of Environment was inundated with a huge amount of emails and telephone calls. The Lone Butte F&W President's letter is a very good one and points exactly to the problem.
If you Cariboo guys want to start hollering again, I'm sure the rest of us will "chime in". "Let's get it on!" Spike/fork horn season for 2010!

[Jagermeister]

17 guys voted "no"? We got that many guides registered on this site?

[hunter1947]

I'm a 100 percent in favor of yes..

[mark]

I'm a 100 percent in favor of yes..

I think every "HUNTER" would vote yes, its only "selfish, lazy natives", and "selfish, lazy guides" that would oppose this!

[behemoth]

This is a wasted opportunity, not only for hunters, but for small business
operators and the region’s cattlemen who have been trying to get something
done about feeding too many deer at their expense for years. Then there is
the cost of all the highway collisions, and the occasional human injury or
tragic loss of life. The time to act is long overdue.



Am I the only one that thinks this is a bizarre statement? Killing deer because it's too expensive for cattlemen?!?

[mark]

Am I the only one that thinks this is a bizarre statement? Killing deer because it's too expensive for cattlemen?!?


I dont think its bizarre at all, its just one more very good excuse to support hunting and wildlife management!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I think every "HUNTER" would vote yes, its only "selfish, lazy natives", and "selfish, lazy guides" that would oppose this!

We seen more than a few people on this site believe that the number of illegal bulls being killed during immie seasons is much higher than it really is:?.

SSS

[BCrams]

17 guys voted "no"? We got that many guides registered on this site?

You'd be surprised .... in particular who within the GOABC who are on here.

[Jagermeister]

I could never figure out why those G&O's never supported the re-introduction of Elk into the Gaspard/Churn Creek area. Must be that these same people are now guiding.

[Jagermeister]

To back up my vote, I think there should be more LEH's for region five, not a GOS (but maybe I just like having somewhere to go during calf season where I don't see a ton of other people)."(but maybe I just like having somewhere to go during calf season where I don't see a ton of other people)." Am I missing something here? What calf season are you referring to?

[palmer]

To back up my vote, I think there should be more LEH's for region five, not a GOS (but maybe I just like having somewhere to go during calf season where I don't see a ton of other people).

I bet you don't see any Calf hunters in Region 5.

[Fisher-Dude]

Am I the only one that thinks this is a bizarre statement? Killing deer because it's too expensive for cattlemen?!?

We can let the farmers cull them and dump them in a pit on their property to rot, or we can feed our families with them and provide opportunities for people to experience hunting. That's the choice we face.

The organization, funding, and political clout of the BC Cattlemen's Association makes the hunters of this province look like some backwoods hicks from the Ozarks. :|

[Fisher-Dude]

To back up my vote, I think there should be more LEH's for region five, not a GOS (but maybe I just like having somewhere to go during calf season where I don't see a ton of other people).

Terrific example of selfish, short-sighted NIMBYism. Keep up the good work.

[wetcoasthunter]

To back up my vote, I think there should be more LEH's for region five, not a GOS (but maybe I just like having somewhere to go during calf season where I don't see a ton of other people).


Just what the province needs, more LEH, brilliant:roll:

And like others have asked, where in region 5 do you hunt calves??

[TPK]

...GOS for bull moose should be reinstated for(2010-2011) in most if not all of Region 5-its duration being a function of an unbiased & a thorough moose population study on a yearly basis. If the #’s become unsustainable then bring in the LEH, Immature or a temporary shut down of the harvest until the #’s are healthy again.

That is another problem we face ... as it is now, MOE's dismal budget means they can't afford a proper inventory once every few years let alone every year, .... and for them to focus on just one area .. it won't happen due to $$$ which a sad sad thing. This is just another opportunity we will loose out on because they (MOE) would rather "error on the side of caution" ... which means they have no money to see what's there so we can't have a harvest. Sound like what happened with the Steelhead up North? .. and many other "lost" opportunities.

[wetcoasthunter]

Who is the Biologist in Region 5 anyway, maybe we should get him together with the manager from 4...or better yet 7B to talk moose. But seriously, who is this guy??

I find it mind boggling that region 4, an area not known for its moose population can have a spike/fork season and region 5 can't, enter bizarro world.

[6616]

[quote=TPK;501474 That is another problem we face ... as it is now, MOE's dismal budget means they can't afford a proper inventory once every few years let alone every year, .... and for them to focus on just one area .. it won't happen due to $$$ which a sad sad thing. This is just another opportunity we will loose out on because they (MOE) would rather "error on the side of caution" ... which means they have no money to see what's there so we can't have a harvest. Sound like what happened with the Steelhead up North? .. and many other "lost" opportunities.[/quote]


And the worst part of it when one thinks about it it that all these lost hunting and fishing opportunities Tony speaks of could probably generate enough revenue to meet the shortfall if all F&W revenue was going into fish and wildlife management. I'll bet the Branch would be more serious about recruitment/retention if their budget hinged on the number of hunting/fishing licenses and species licenses sold in BC.

[TPK]

I really like the 100 Mile Free Press ... I get so sick and tired of the anti-gun/anti-hunting GARBAGE that the Langley Times spews .. nice to see some media support for a change.

100 Mile Free Press
Aug. 25, 2009
Joint Letter to the Honourable Barry Penner, Minister of Environment,
on the need for improved deer and moose management in
Region 5, Cariboo-Chilcotin.

Dear Minister Penner,

The eight signatories to this letter are retired senior wildlife biologists
who have extensive wildlife management experience in the province of
British Columbia.

We write to express our concerns about the lack of biologically sound
management strategies for mule deer and moose in the Cariboo-Chilcotin
region. This year’s regulation changes saw the continued erosion of hunting
opportunities for BC resident deer and moose hunters.

The 100 Mile Free Press recently published several letters and articles
from local residents complaining about the lack of hunting opportunities in
the face of abundant deer and moose populations. Visiting resident hunters
are seeking hunting opportunities in other regions or quitting hunting
altogether, which has impacts on the regional economy — an economy which is
already suffering from the severe economic downturn in the forest industry.

Overly conservative management of expanding deer populations results in
damage to deer habitat; private gardens and ranchers’ hayfields; attracts
dangerous predators to the urban/forest fringe; and can result in increased
vehicle/wildlife collisions.

In numerous meetings and in correspondence with local BC Wildlife
Federation members and in newspaper articles, the regional manager
continues to rationalize his actions as being necessary to meet the needs
of First Nations and for a perceived need to reduce the harvest of antlered
and antler-less deer in order to restore the sex ratio.

As experienced BC wildlife managers, we recognize and respect the
province’s responsibilities for conservation and its fiduciary
responsibilities to First Nations. It is our professional judgment,
however, based on population inventory data provided by the Williams Lake
Wildlife Office and the provincial Annual Hunter Sample and anecdotal
reports of experienced hunters and ranchers, including some of our own
observations, that deer and moose populations have reached and may be
exceeding the carrying capacity of their habitats.

Responsible wildlife management puts conservation first, considers all
interests and prescribes sustainable harvest levels, which, in the case of
the Cariboo-Chilcotin, means greater hunting opportunities, not fewer as
prescribed by the Williams Lake regional manager.

The overly-restrictive regulations that have been implemented in Region 5
over the past 10 to 12 years place the deer and moose populations at risk
for a severe over-winter die-off such as occurred in the Peace River in the
2006-2007 winter. Such die-offs occurred in the Cariboo and Chilcotin in
the past when deer and moose populations exceeded the carrying capacity of
their habitats and benefitted no one.

In our view, the actions of the Williams Lake regional manager are contrary
to your ministry’s wildlife management policies. Instead of encouraging
more hunters through more liberal harvests to meet the goals of your
ministry’s Resident Hunter Recruitment and Retention Strategy and
simplifying the regulations as prescribed in the Provincial Wildlife
Harvest Strategy, the changes that were adopted for 2009-2010 added more
restrictions and complexity to the already overly complex regulations.

Adjacent regions, namely the Omineca and Thompson-Nicola, have been
administering successful moose management programs over a period of 25
years that sustain healthy, productive moose herds, produce more moose with
fewer complaints and enjoy a high degree of public support. Despite these
excellent examples, the Region 5 regional manager refuses to begin
implementing a similar strategy.

We respectfully request that you institute an independent review of Region
5’s mule deer and moose management strategies. Pursuing your government’s
goal of science-informed and consensus-based resource management planning
will not be possible as long as key members of your administration fail to
fully support your policies and develop their own unilateral approaches to
wildlife management.

Yours sincerely,

Dan Blower, retired BC Ungulate Coordinator
Ken Child, retired Omineca Region, Wildlife Section Head
Ray Demarchi, retired BC Chief of Wildlife
Fred Harper, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Doug Janz, retired Vancouver Region, Regional Wildlife Section Head
Dave Low, retired Thompson-Nicola, Regional Wildlife Biologist
Bill Munro, retired BC Wildlife Branch, Deputy Director
Bruce Pendergast, retired BC Manager, Wildlife Inventory Section

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Awesome stuff TPK! :cool::cool:
Thanks for posting that letter!

I hope heads start to roll!

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

Tony that's a GREAT letter, by some renowned heavy weights in BC's game management! This approach is needed right across BC. My conversations with Ray Demarchi have indicated that we are up our arses with our current game management practices with a very few exceptions.

If the opinions of these 8 respected men, who have nothing to gain financially or politically from this letter, don't convince the naysayers, then I'm afraid we're doomed for hunting in this province.

[BCrams]

Awsome letter.

While they were at it, they should have included the Region 6 (Skeena) stuff going on regarding moose and sheep allocations etc.

[BillyBull]

The letter that TPK posted is great. I have been hunting in the regions 5-3, 5-2, 5-11 areas for the past 40 years and in the last 15 years I have seen the hunting pressure change from camps to quad running. What would you all say if they opened the seasons but dropped the use of quads. Then we would be back to camping and hoofing to get the little moose out of the back country.