German Shepherd question.

[FlyingHigh]

i was having a friendly argument with a buddy today. he figures that there is no way a german shepherd would make a good retreiver for upland game birds. i say that with shepherds being as smart as they are, one could definitely be trained to retrieve. my uncles shepherd will fetch sticks and dummies all day long, and she won't chase game at all. i figure with proper discipline training it could be done. what do you hunting dog gurus say?

[Paulyman]

Funny you should mention it!

I was at the dog park today with a friend of mine, as i was watching our dogs play,mine which is a Portuguese water Dog ,which has proven himself to be a good upland bird hunting dog(grouse)and hers a German Sheppard crossed with husky.My friends dog was absolutely ball obsessed and i made a comment to her that i think her dog would be an amazing bird dog if trained.My opinion is that a dog that Has strong retrieving instincts like her dog displayed could do great things out in the field,no doubt about it!

Paul

[Ubertuber]

My shepherd was quite good at retrieving, maybe not as good as some of the retriever guru's here, but better than most.
She was smart as they come, that's for sure.

[reach]

Our Shepherd loves retrieving and loves the water. I think if she had been trained for it, she would have been a good retriever.

Sometimes I throw the frisbee, and as she's chasing it she spooks a rabbit and there will be the running rabbit and the frisbee side by side. She goes for the frisbee every time. :biggrin: Strange dog. Very focused though and she was excellent at Schutzhund obedience in her day, so I have no doubt she could have been trained for retrieving.

Her only problem is constant loud panting. That might be a show stopper for hunting.

[Jimsue]

I use to train with a group that had a girl with a heeler, it would make 50 yrd retrieves on ducks, the difference between sticks, frizbees, balls, and ducks, is that ducks and other birds taste good.

[xandra]

Hi there. I creep this forum, lol. I don't know anything about hunting but I do know a bit about GSD's. It sounds like you're considering buying one so I'm going to give you *the speech* on lines so you can start off right. lol sorry, and if that's all common sense to you or you know it, sorry, just scroll down for my answer to your question.

First of all, there are 3 basic lines of german shepherd.
Show lines (both American and German)
http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/p2p.html?seenIEPage=1

And working line.
http://www.norsstargermanshepherds.com/Kessy.jpg

And the original, historical GSD:
http://www.gsdcsaz.org/Old%20Pictures.htm

All purebred dogs are bred for looks to an extent. Pugs have been bred primarily for looks since... well, forever, they don't have a purpose other than sitting there. Working dogs are also bred to (loosely) look a certain way- they adhere to a standard which outlines what has PROVEN to be the best structure for the dog to do his job.

It's hard enough to breed truly great working dogs when temperament is the primary consideration- even in a litter of top working dog to top working dog there will be washouts. So needless to say, when working ability isn't a consideration, or even isn't the top consideration, temperament goes out the window pretty quick.

You'll notice the slanty backs on the American show line dog and the curvy back on the European show line dog. These lines of German shepherd have been bred for what the show world's perverted perception of "beauty" and "perfection"- maybe with some consideration for temperament, maybe not. These dogs do not have the good bodies for performance any longer.

Within working lines there are a couple of different lines (East German/DDR, Czech)- but they look pretty much they same, because they were both bred for working ability, and form follows function- and their functions were to chase down people escaping the ( former communist) countries of East Germany and Czechoslovakia.

Another thing to look at is health- now we have hip testing, but before the only way to tell if a dog was going to, say, get hip dysplasia was to wait and see. Well, when there is no stress on the dog's body (ie, all it has to do is prance around a ring), you might not "see" until the dog is 7 years old and already passed on its genes. Working line dogs tend to be healthier because traditionally, they were run into the ground and problems surfaced before they were bred, or at least before they'd had too many pups. Working line dogs also tend to be healthier because their bodies are natural (compare to a picture of a wolf, nature's best canine design) and not some weird, perverted shape. European lines (both show and working) tend to healthier because the SV (Germany's shepherd club) has made passing a hip test mandatory before breeding for some time now. Many American show line breeders hip test now too- kudos.

You also get dogs that aren't anything-lines, that tend to be medicore in all aspects. You get "bred for SIZE" XXX-L "old style" GSD's. Don't believe these people, they lie. They shouldn't be over 100lbs, and they should be fairly thin. Good breeders aim for something like 60-80lbs. More weight doesn't do anything except stress the joints more.

Wherever you get your dogs MAKE SURE the parents have their hips certified. Not "vet checked" or "oh, don't worry, they're healthy" but paper-proof of OFA or Pennhip or some similar certification. Also, good breeders give guarentees (if their dogs are any good, why shouldn't they?) For a working line pup, you're looking at a grand, give or take.

ABOUT RETRIEVING:
A champion show dog is a "champion" of walking around a ring. Even German showline dogs must get a Sch I (http://www.temarshepherds.com/SchH1.htm) title (which requires, among other things, being comfortable around gunfire)

Show line dogs tend to have:
less energy
weaker nerves (although lots are adequately confident dogs, especially from German showlines)
and less drive.

Less energy can be a good thing, lol (like in the house).

Weak nerves SUCK. Think skittish in new circumstances, around loud noises, etc. Easily daunted by new/strange things. Running from gunfire. Being distracted by gunfire. At worst, weak nerves can manifest as "fear aggression" (the dog thinking: "Oh Jesus, look at that terrifying child! I must protect myself from it" CHOMP)

A dog without drive (doggy enthusiasm) is useless to you. There are specific "drives" like defense drive, prey drive, etc. From what I can tell, labs and whatnot retrieve out of "retrieving drive" or something like that. German shepherds might have a bit of that "retrieving drive" but what propels that dog through thick brush after your bird is going to be prey drive (the dog wants to "get" the dead bird). The dog will bring it back to you because you taught it to (or in the case of a stick, the dog wants you to throw it again).

Intense prey drive is a double edged sword. I know you said upland birds, but say you wanted a dog to retrieve ducks, well, a dog without drive is going to go "it's too collddd, I cannn't" and will give up. A dog with drive might not like the cold but its desire to get that bird will overcome its discomfort. For instance, I can throw a stick into THICK THICK blackberries and my dog will push through them and get the stick. I can throw the stick into a dumptruck box and he'll jump/climb in the box. I can throw it in a pond in November and he'll swim through freezing water to get it (no waterproof coat, remember). He has strong prey drive. I have yet to throw something for him without him trying to get it. But lots of prey drive also means more training. He wants to get it so bad, that he will scream if he can't reach it (obviously I trained him not to). If I throw something in the water and let another dog get a head start, he will wail as he tries to beat the other dog to it. So if you get a dog that has enough drive to really really want to get that bird, you'll have to put in some work to get it to restrain itself. Also, I've found if I throw multiple objects that he's so focused on the first thing I threw that he doesn't remember to watch for the second. But again, that is something that can be trained.

Also. The mouth. These dogs were made for CHOMPING not delicately toting a dead bird. Once again, the dog is working out of prey drive. So you'll have to put some work into teaching it to be gentle with feathered things.

Also, they aren't bloodhounds or anything. I find mine doesn't have the best nose of any dog I've seen. Not bad and 95% of the time he can find the stick, but you'll have to train him to take "this way that way" commands.

With those considerations I'm sure a GSD would make a good hunting dog. If you start early with training, you could probably teach it to point decently as well. What you're working with isn't genetically programmed for the job you want it to do. So you'll have to compensate for the lack of birddog genetics by choosing very carefully (parents' hips, reaction to loud noises, drive), lots of early imprinting and lots of training. If I remember right, you were looking at huskies before? GSD's (along with the malinois and dutch shepherd) are probably the most versatile breed out there, so if you're into that wolfy appearance, they are the way to go.

Sorry for the length. I'm not particularly useful to the rest of this forum so that will probably constitute my yearly contribution lol.

Good luck!

[leadpillproductions]

my buddy has one she fetch what ever he tells her to get she's a great dog.

[scallywag]

gsd can do whatever you teach them to do .. i have had two when I was a young pup( and i also grew up with many spaniels) but the gf and I are looking for a awesome German Shepherd pup to make our new family member.. anyone know of a kick ass breeder(cost and distance isn;t an issue) ...