Dog Agression

[Ben Fougere]

I have a question or subject to be debated.

Our dog Kingston is one year old now and we may be starting to have problems with him and a dominant behavior. We have been on him every time he has shown dominant behavior, but this time was the worst we have ever seen it. We had some friends visit with another male dog that was neutered and our dog was constantly fixated on this dog. He was a different dog than I've ever seen. Kingston wanted to "hump" our friends dog the whole visit. I had a hard time getting him to stop.

The dilemma is that we do not want to neuter Kingston because we really hope to breed him one day. We haven't been to the vet yet to ask for an opinion, but we've heard that it can be hard on a dog if they are neutered after six months of age.

So the question or debate is......To neuter or not to neuter? That is the question. Also, any suggestions on how to deal with dominance issues?

[bowhunterbruce]

dogs are pack animals.they have always been just that and as far as pack aniamls go they run on a higearchy type of system where there must be leaders in the pack.if he is showing signs of aggression towards other dogs or humans it is because no one is showing him that they are superior to him.
it is very common for a dog to protect and defend his own turf when other dogs are near or even in thier own space so unless he his taught differently then they will continue to be this way.
you and all those in your family must show him that all humans are his superior even on his home turf.
all dogs want to display some form of control but if your dog is never allowed to get away with any wrong doing then he will start to realize that its better to be good then to disobay.this means staying on top of him with all instructions you give him until he secomes to what is being asked of him.
once any order is followed ,even if its only for 1 minute be sure you feed him with adiquit praise and love. after all, thats all a dogs is really lookiing for.

[Angel]

No joke, check out the dog whisper reading material or website. he has some really helpful tips and techniques to help deal with dominat dogs.

[Spokerider]

No joke, check out the dog whisper reading material or website. he has some really helpful tips and techniques to help deal with dominat dogs.

Ditto........
This trainer KNOWS dogs and their behaviors. Cesar Milan, the Dog Whisperer, shown on the National Geographic channel and has at least two books out.

[Stresd]

If you are not going to be breeding him then Neutering him should be on the top of your list. Yes this will calm his temperment down. But #1 is that letting him know that in your Family Pack that he is not the Alpha. Dogs just want direction and pack leadership. If they precieve no leader in the Pack they will attempt to correct this problem by trying to become the Alpha. You must show him by your attitude and Demeanor and actions that you and your family are all above him in the Pack Hierchy. As others suggest there a lot of reading material out there on how to Lead your family Pack. The Dog Whisperer is excellent as well8)

[500grhollowpoint]

Our dog was awfull. He humped, he fought, he snarled, he pissed on other dogs. He is a golden retriever and he loves to have the ball thrown, and if another dog came near his ball, watchout. We took him to the dog park all the time. Every time he would fight. This was a problem....he is 100 lbs and super muscular... He was not agressive in the least towards people...no matter what they did(Except try to come in the back yard if he doesen't know you!) We had had him at a crowded dog park lots since he was very smalll....

Then we went away for 2 weeks. We left him in a kennell. He was a new dog. Now we can go to the dog park and other dogs will bark at him with his ball....he ignores them. Other dogs can bite, snarl, whatever, he ignores them for a very long time before he reacts..... This was about 18 months ago...he is still great.


And yes, my dog is very submissive to me.....

[dutchie]

Ditto........
This trainer KNOWS dogs and their behaviors. Cesar Milan, the Dog Whisperer, shown on the National Geographic channel and has at least two books out.

He is very good but he is spent his life doing this so the books are intended to explain the phsycology behind the training and breaking process.

on the shows they show the BAD dogs but he is there for a significant period of time.

One tool that you may want to look at is a "Delmar Smith Command lead", or Wonder Lead. this will hit the pressure points behind the ears and a dominant dog will thrash and freak out because he knows he has now lost control. These can be bought at www.gundogsupply.com (http://www.gundogsupply.com) www.lcsupply.com (http://www.lcsupply.com) but not at any local stores.

I would suggest you get ahold of the breeder and talk to them about what to do. A good breeder will know who to talk to or know what you should do.

Dutchie

[Stresd]

A size 12 boot to the nutsack would solve this in a hurry :biggrin:

Not the most painless form of Neutering. :biggrin:

[goatdancer]

Maybe your dog is gay..........

[Devilbear]

Neutering a male dog or spaying a female DOES NOT affect the "pack dominance" aspects of canine behaviour, this is an "old wives tale".

I raise and train Rottweilers and have had this wonderful breed for over 20 years as well as having had purebred dogs and a few crossbreds since 1954. I have read a LOT of material, discussed canine psychology with many vets and the best books I have read are those by Dr. Stanley Coren of UBC and "The Monks of New Skete", however, there are lots of other good ones out there.

My Rottweilers will not allow anyone into my chainlink fenced yard, BUT, even "Woden the Warrior" a magnificent male of a weighed 160 lbs., when he caught a guy inside the fence one Sunday, just calmly held him for me to check out....his smaller, but, incredibly strong, tough and intelligent brother, "Axel the Assassin", would NOT have been so mellow, he adored my wife and would warn anyone who approached her, ONCE and then, well, he knew his job and protected his "mum" until March 31st last, when he died.

The IMPORTANT factor here, as others have said, is to BE the BOSS and I NEVER strike my dogs and they instantly obey me.....I am known to "bribe" with Moose sausage, which Rottweilers are totally gonzo over......

I am going to buy two more, soon, and breed my superb little bitch, "Lily" in late 2010, best damm home security one can get.

[Jagermeister]

Change the dog's name from Kingston. Dogs with names like Kingston are very aggressive. Name him Humpfry or Hump for short and he will shake the bad habit out of shame. They say that dogs, particularly male dogs, take on their owner's traits. You weren't fixated on your friend's woman perchance?:lol:

[wolverine]

A size 12 boot to the nutsack would solve this in a hurry :biggrin:

Geezuz.... coffee all over the damned screen again....:)

[JeremyCarrano302]

you gotta put the fear of an alpha leader back in him

[Devilbear]

Change the dog's name from Kingston. Dogs with names like Kingston are very aggressive. Name him Humpfry or Hump for short and he will shake the bad habit out of shame. They say that dogs, particularly male dogs, take on their owner's traits. You weren't fixated on your friend's woman perchance?:lol:

Don't DO this, I damm near p*zzed myself!!!! Great post!!!! :)

[kinderdoggin]

Ah hell, I had a serious answer all lined up til I read the other posts. lol.

If he is truly responding aggressively, you don't want to breed him. If that's the way he swings that way you really couldn't get puppies anyway :)

[Fisher-Dude]

My dog was neutered at 6 months, yet he's still an alpha male. He met my gal pal's 4 German Shepherds last week, and had a brief spat with one of the intact males (who likely outweighed him by double) when the Shepherd tried to put his chin on my dog's back (an attempt at dominance). My dog gave him the what-for with fangs and a strong verbal warning, the Shepherd backed off and put his head down in submission, then all 5 of them were "friends" for the whole day.

Knowing when to call your dog off from a natural display of dominance is a bit of a grey area...just don't let him dominate you, or you won't be able to tell him when enough is enough. Sounds like he may be gaining the upper hand with you already. A few bucks spent with a master trainer will pay off huge to correct this now, before he becomes a real problem.

[dutchie]

Knowing when to call your dog off from a natural display of dominance is a bit of a grey area...just don't let him dominate you, or you won't be able to tell him when enough is enough. Sounds like he may be gaining the upper hand with you already. A few bucks spent with a master trainer will pay off huge to correct this now, before he becomes a real problem.

I don't belive a dog that has to be the dominant dog is a good thing. If you have a dog that needs to be dominant then it has to be trained out of it.. (kinda like small man/penis syndrome)

It is great if you have a dog that submits to yourself but if you have a dominant dog, and a kid comes to close, and the dog feels it needs to dominate??? then what? you now have a dog in the SPCA and then you have to pay them to get the dog back (and may I remind you that is support for an ANTI-HUNTING organization!!!)or you get to over pay them to have the dog put down.

Like devilbear said about the nutering, does nothing, it only stops them from marking but like anything you can make a dog do what ever you want it to with a little training.

Dutchie

[Barracuda]

The role of testosterone and the relationship to territorializm,aggression, dominance , etc is a well proven fact in male and female animals .




There is no doubt there are behavioural differences that have a root in the dogs Hormone production of testosterone and and the reduction in this hormone does have an effect on a dog mentally and physically (sometimes positive sometimes detrimental) .

Being intact is not an excuse for a bad dog or bad training nor is castration a cure for these issues . There are so many factors one must look at and it really isnt as simple as a couple of testes



I dont think one can dismiss the role that testosterone plays in animals and one must look at it as a factor in characteristics displayed

[Chuck]

That Caesar guy is great! If you can get ahold of his book(s) or even watch a few episodes on the National Geographic channel you'll learn a lot.
Seems to me that your dog is top dog, or so he thinks. Needs to be shown where he fits into the family. Also the manners toward visitors - humpin is a dominance thing. Try this - when he misbehaves and you're right there, immediately flip him over on his back and hold him firmly in that posture by his throat until he relaxes and quits resisting (don't choke him). This is dog talk for "I'm the boss". It works.

[Jimbo]

Sometimes with dogs you do what you gotta do, but I can't think of any pro dog trainer who flips dogs over to prove themselves.

I enjoy the TV show "End of my Leash". The trainer there teaches dog owners to modify their own behavior to demonstrate dominance over the dog on an ongoing basis. Little things like making the dog follow you thru a doorway or gate, making the dog move out of your way instead of you walking around the dog, it all adds up in the end.

[300wsm]

ok i will say it...piss on your dog. it works...you will be the alpha male. go ahead members, hit me with your criticism.

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't belive a dog that has to be the dominant dog is a good thing. If you have a dog that needs to be dominant then it has to be trained out of it.. (kinda like small man/penis syndrome)

It is great if you have a dog that submits to yourself but if you have a dominant dog, and a kid comes to close, and the dog feels it needs to dominate??? then what? you now have a dog in the SPCA and then you have to pay them to get the dog back (and may I remind you that is support for an ANTI-HUNTING organization!!!)or you get to over pay them to have the dog put down.

Like devilbear said about the nutering, does nothing, it only stops them from marking but like anything you can make a dog do what ever you want it to with a little training.

Dutchie

Dogs well know the difference between kids and other dogs. When a dog tries to be dominate with you, it doesn't hump, roll you over, or try to put its chin over your back like it would with other dogs. With you, it will try to dominate through leading you instead of your leading it. Dogs that show aggression towards kids have issues other than dominance, and must be dealt with strictly and severely.

My dog absolutely loves kids - they can jump on his back, pull his tail or ears, and all he does is lick their faces and wait for someone to throw the ball. With other dogs, they settle their place in the pack's heirarchy, and then get along fine. Good luck with trying to "train" pack instinct out of a dog - knowing how to control the instincts by leading your dog with your own dominance is the key.

[Devilbear]

The role of testosterone and the relationship to territorializm,aggression, dominance , etc is a well proven fact in male and female animals .




There is no doubt there are behavioural differences that have a root in the dogs Hormone production of testosterone and and the reduction in this hormone does have an effect on a dog mentally and physically (sometimes positive sometimes detrimental) .

Being intact is not an excuse for a bad dog or bad training nor is castration a cure for these issues . There are so many factors one must look at and it really isnt as simple as a couple of testes



I dont think one can dismiss the role that testosterone plays in animals and one must look at it as a factor in characteristics displayed

Excuse me, but, the hormone Testosterone is NOT only produced in the male testes, which are removed in neutering a male dog. It also is a sex hormone and behavior in dogs is not all related to sex.

Please state your sources for your statements as I would point out that FEMALE canines, "bitches:, ALSO produce Testosterone and in their OVARIES...they do not HAVE testes AND bitches OFTEN display territorial and other forms of dominance and aggression.

When a bitch is spayed OR a dog is neutered, SOME Testosterone production is lost, BUT, sufficient of this hormone is produced in the "cerebral cortex" of the animal(s) to have an effect on subsequent behaviour.

As you posted, this is a complex situation, but, TRAINING is what makes any real difference and knowledgable training is what really works.

[dutchie]

Dogs well know the difference between kids and other dogs. When a dog tries to be dominate with you, it doesn't hump, roll you over, or try to put its chin over your back like it would with other dogs. With you, it will try to dominate through leading you instead of your leading it. Dogs that show aggression towards kids have issues other than dominance, and must be dealt with strictly and severely.

My dog absolutely loves kids - they can jump on his back, pull his tail or ears, and all he does is lick their faces and wait for someone to throw the ball. With other dogs, they settle their place in the pack's heirarchy, and then get along fine. Good luck with trying to "train" pack instinct out of a dog - knowing how to control the instincts by leading your dog with your own dominance is the key.

There is absolutly no way to train instict. It is impossible because everything is born with instict. I never suggested trying to train instinct out of a dog. It was training the dog there are reactions to thier actions which can be positive or negitive.

In my opinion a dog owner belives dogs need to sort it out them between the dogs and my dog needs vet work because they did not want to train thier dog it can`t be dominant in a public setting then, that bill will be going to the owner of the other dog in small claims court. My sister thought that way and her dog hurt another dog, and that exact thing happened she was sued because she let it happen by letting the dog outside with out a leash. Her dog was also was trying to be dominant and picked a fight with a pitbull... She was one of those people that belived that dogs need to sort it out them selfs. Both my sister and her dog were in the hospital. my sisters dogs leg was bitten in half.

It is not training the pack instincts out of them it is training them that they are near or at the bottom of the pack with any kids or dogs. Avoid the problem before it becomes a problem... and training them that if they start a fight they are going to get into BIG trouble. A dominant dog wants to protect its owner. Kids can look like a threat to a dog if the kids are running at you.

You can train a dog skills and actions to reactions.(I bite i get my mouth shut: I run away i get put on a leash, I jump I get a knee in the chest) but you can`t train instinct. Instinct in genetic to how sensitive thier nose is, pointing, treeing, running, sucking on a nipple, walking, Dominance is a learned trait because if they can get away with it many times they think it is ok.

You can let a dog be dominant (by letting the dog get away with it with no consequence) hence training the dominance, but you cant train a dog not to bark before it ever barks.`

Dutchie

[Devilbear]

Totally agree.

[Barracuda]

Excuse me, but, the hormone Testosterone is NOT only produced in the male testes, which are removed in neutering a male dog. It also is a sex hormone and behavior in dogs is not all related to sex.

Please state your sources for your statements as I would point out that FEMALE canines, "bitches:, ALSO produce Testosterone and in their OVARIES...they do not HAVE testes AND bitches OFTEN display territorial and other forms of dominance and aggression.

When a bitch is spayed OR a dog is neutered, SOME Testosterone production is lost, BUT, sufficient of this hormone is produced in the "cerebral cortex" of the animal(s) to have an effect on subsequent behaviour.

As you posted, this is a complex situation, but, TRAINING is what makes any real difference and knowledgable training is what really works.

I think you better re read my post

[bullmagnum]

lmao, Devilbear really missed the mark there. :o

[Devilbear]

What I am questioning here is your statement about ...proven... and simply asking you to cite your sources. So, I have re-read your post and am still curious as to why you would state that without providing your sources, that's all.

So, my comments are merely what one would expect in any seminar on basic ethology, nothing worth ...lmao...over.

[mrdoog]

ok i will say it...piss on your dog. it works...you will be the alpha male. go ahead members, hit me with your criticism.

I've tried everything from dominance to bark collars; I 've just concluded that my dog is just a plain ole bitch and would do will do whatever, whenever she sees fit.
This pissing idea seems to have merit; so if you see me on the front page of the Surrey Leader, remember the reason I was running around the backyard with my Johnson in my hand was to train my dog.

[Devilbear]

Surrey???? Welllll.............

;) :) :)

[GoatGuy]

I have a question or subject to be debated.

Our dog Kingston is one year old now and we may be starting to have problems with him and a dominant behavior. We have been on him every time he has shown dominant behavior, but this time was the worst we have ever seen it. We had some friends visit with another male dog that was neutered and our dog was constantly fixated on this dog. He was a different dog than I've ever seen. Kingston wanted to "hump" our friends dog the whole visit. I had a hard time getting him to stop.

The dilemma is that we do not want to neuter Kingston because we really hope to breed him one day. We haven't been to the vet yet to ask for an opinion, but we've heard that it can be hard on a dog if they are neutered after six months of age.

So the question or debate is......To neuter or not to neuter? That is the question. Also, any suggestions on how to deal with dominance issues?

Neutering will keep him closer to home and he won't be 'headed for heat' every time he smells it. Don't wait until he's too old or just like a horse you'll be in for it and he'll want to screw everything in sight and fight with everything else. There's a reason why you don't see many stallions in pack strings.

Same goes with girls. My dog was pretty much useless when she came into heat. Got stupid in a hurry and it had nothing to do with training.

There are lots of people who claim to be dog whisperers and some are good trainers BUT dog's are supposed to be something you enjoy not something that stresses you out. No need to have a problem that could be avoided or spending time trying to keep your dog in line instead of training him other more valuable lessons.

Neutering him will make him more manageable. Don't wait until it's too late.

[Ben Fougere]

Neutering will keep him closer to home and he won't be 'headed for heat' every time he smells it. Don't wait until he's too old or just like a horse you'll be in for it and he'll want to screw everything in sight and fight with everything else. There's a reason why you don't see many stallions in pack strings.

Same goes with girls. My dog was pretty much useless when she came into heat. Got stupid in a hurry and it had nothing to do with training.

There are lots of people who claim to be dog whisperers and some are good trainers BUT dog's are supposed to be something you enjoy not something that stresses you out. No need to have a problem that could be avoided or spending time trying to keep your dog in line instead of training him other more valuable lessons.

Neutering him will make him more manageable. Don't wait until it's too late.

Thank you Goatguy and everyone else. I posted this thread to get a discussion going about dog dominance.

I can respond to a few threads and had a chuckle reading some of the posts.

1) There was a moment when I though my dog was gay, but I don't think that dogs can be.

2) There was also a moment when I considered renaming Kingston to something more like Sr. Hump A Lot.

3) I like the discussion that was started about a dog's testosterone. Keep it coming.

4) Our real dilemma is that we want to breed Kingston down the road. We know that we cannot be breeding him if he is an agressive dog. So the question up for debate is....How long do we wait before we decide to neuter him? Or, how long CAN we wait before it is too late to neuter him? Or, will it even help with dominance issues if we neuter him?

5) We have a neighbour with a chocolate lab who is neutered and he still humps Kingston every time they play together. This is another reason why I am not convinced that neutering him will solve the humping problem. When I tell him to stop humping the neighbours dog he stops right away. Most of the time my dog is very submissive to other dogs, he was even submissive and rolling around on the ground a few times while he played with our friends dog each day. It was almost like a few times out of the day he went into a trace. You could see it in his eyes.

The few times a day that Kingston continuously humped our friends dog was a nightmare. Our friends little border collie was shy to begin with, because he is a rescue.When Kingston was fixated, I submitted him every time he humped the other dog, but he kept going back for more.

I noticed that he was smelling something on the dog that he doesn't smell on other dogs and this is what threw me. What Goatguy said was how I was thinking. Was my dog "headed for heat" for a male dog? I was more confused than anything. We've simply never ran into this with our dog before. He's great with people and other dogs. He was even great with our friends dog when we took them to the lake and sometimes even in the backyard they played, so we were wondering if he was simply being super dominant in his own back yard.

[Barracuda]

What I am questioning here is your statement about ...proven... and simply asking you to cite your sources. So, I have re-read your post and am still curious as to why you would state that without providing your sources, that's all.

So, my comments are merely what one would expect in any seminar on basic ethology, nothing worth ...lmao...over.


are you still a bit confused ?
I cannot believe in this day and age that you cant find a singly study , paper or book on the subject?

I hope this helps ,
One of the first things i found in one of my old text books on the shelf is Kenneth Moyer look him and his studies up.

heres a link to some silly folks that found that testosterone was a factor ( i will let you purchase the article) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T0P-485RR0M-MC&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=950528638&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d92b941f9dc13ca67cd41111e5b74b9c#implicit0

here is another intersting article that was found in a matter of seconds and the list can go on and on . I am sure you will find the same .


http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/mjm/v06n01/v06p032/v06p032.pdf


I think what might be the stumbling block is that you perhaps intitially misread what i had posted .
Simply put, the hormone is a documented factor in behaviour in both sexes (as i stated in the first post) and it isnt to be overlooked nor used as an excuse.

I am sure i can find more in some of my other books as well as online contributions.

[houndogger]

Thank you Goatguy and everyone else. I posted this thread to get a discussion going about dog dominance.

I can respond to a few threads and had a chuckle reading some of the posts.

1) There was a moment when I though my dog was gay, but I don't think that dogs can be.

2) There was also a moment when I considered renaming Kingston to something more like Sr. Hump A Lot.

3) I like the discussion that was started about a dog's testosterone. Keep it coming.

4) Our real dilemma is that we want to breed Kingston down the road. We know that we cannot be breeding him if he is an agressive dog. So the question up for debate is....How long do we wait before we decide to neuter him? Or, how long CAN we wait before it is too late to neuter him? Or, will it even help with dominance issues if we neuter him?

5) We have a neighbour with a chocolate lab who is neutered and he still humps Kingston every time they play together. This is another reason why I am not convinced that neutering him will solve the humping problem. When I tell him to stop humping the neighbours dog he stops right away. Most of the time my dog is very submissive to other dogs, he was even submissive and rolling around on the ground a few times while he played with our friends dog each day. It was almost like a few times out of the day he went into a trace. You could see it in his eyes.

The few times a day that Kingston continuously humped our friends dog was a nightmare. Our friends little border collie was shy to begin with, because he is a rescue.When Kingston was fixated, I submitted him every time he humped the other dog, but he kept going back for more.

I noticed that he was smelling something on the dog that he doesn't smell on other dogs and this is what threw me. What Goatguy said was how I was thinking. Was my dog "headed for heat" for a male dog? I was more confused than anything. We've simply never ran into this with our dog before. He's great with people and other dogs. He was even great with our friends dog when we took them to the lake and sometimes even in the backyard they played, so we were wondering if he was simply being super dominant in his own back yard.

Myself I would neuter right now. It is much better to leave the breeding up to reputal breeders. If the breeder you bought off is selling dogs that are aggresive don't shop there again.

I don't tolorate dog fighting a bit. It is very intense at the tree. I will only want dogs that like to trail and tree. Tree fighters don't come home! There is to many good dogs out there to be headed to a vet for a dog fight.

Good luck you have a up hill battle.

[GoatGuy]

Thank you Goatguy and everyone else. I posted this thread to get a discussion going about dog dominance.

I can respond to a few threads and had a chuckle reading some of the posts.

1) There was a moment when I though my dog was gay, but I don't think that dogs can be.

2) There was also a moment when I considered renaming Kingston to something more like Sr. Hump A Lot.

3) I like the discussion that was started about a dog's testosterone. Keep it coming.

4) Our real dilemma is that we want to breed Kingston down the road. We know that we cannot be breeding him if he is an agressive dog. So the question up for debate is....How long do we wait before we decide to neuter him? Or, how long CAN we wait before it is too late to neuter him? Or, will it even help with dominance issues if we neuter him?

5) We have a neighbour with a chocolate lab who is neutered and he still humps Kingston every time they play together. This is another reason why I am not convinced that neutering him will solve the humping problem. When I tell him to stop humping the neighbours dog he stops right away. Most of the time my dog is very submissive to other dogs, he was even submissive and rolling around on the ground a few times while he played with our friends dog each day. It was almost like a few times out of the day he went into a trace. You could see it in his eyes.

The few times a day that Kingston continuously humped our friends dog was a nightmare. Our friends little border collie was shy to begin with, because he is a rescue.When Kingston was fixated, I submitted him every time he humped the other dog, but he kept going back for more.

I noticed that he was smelling something on the dog that he doesn't smell on other dogs and this is what threw me. What Goatguy said was how I was thinking. Was my dog "headed for heat" for a male dog? I was more confused than anything. We've simply never ran into this with our dog before. He's great with people and other dogs. He was even great with our friends dog when we took them to the lake and sometimes even in the backyard they played, so we were wondering if he was simply being super dominant in his own back yard.

Leave the breeding to the pros. I don't think neutering him will get rid of the humping thing but it'll definitely help cool him down. Sooner the better.

[born2hunt]

Tbh , its to late now , Your dog has it in him meaning that temperment! nuetering wont help one bit at this point! what you can try is evry time your dog shows aggression or tries to be dominate roll him on his back and hold all 4 legs until he submits the first few times will probably be a struggle be be persistent he will submit to you ,You have to be the dominate one in the house not the dog then when he submits to you easily have your wife do the same thing , there needs to be a ranking in the house !! with the dog at the bottom tbh, H e can be your best friend but you are boss not him !! show him that.

[dutchie]

I've tried everything from dominance to bark collars; I 've just concluded that my dog is just a plain ole bitch and would do will do whatever, whenever she sees fit.
This pissing idea seems to have merit; so if you see me on the front page of the Surrey Leader, remember the reason I was running around the backyard with my Johnson in my hand was to train my dog.


Did anyone else get the same visual I did?! I wish I never read that post!


Dutchie

[born2hunt]

Did anyone else get the same visual I did?! I wish I never read that post!


Dutchierofl yea ! wow

[sawmill]

A guy and his buddy are watching a dog lick his balls,the one guy says"Gee I wish I could do that" and his buddy says"I think you better pat him first"

[dutchie]

Myself I would neuter right now. It is much better to leave the breeding up to reputal breeders. If the breeder you bought off is selling dogs that are aggresive don't shop there again.

I don't tolorate dog fighting a bit. It is very intense at the tree. I will only want dogs that like to trail and tree. Tree fighters don't come home! There is to many good dogs out there to be headed to a vet for a dog fight.

Good luck you have a up hill battle.

I agree with this 100%.

But there is still the agression issue that needs to be tamed. This is going to have to re enforced very heavily and your wife and kids will probably complain about you "abusing" the dog, by making it whimper and whine.

Kids these days will through temper tantrums and what to they get, "johnny please don't do that, it hurts Mommy's feelings"... What happeneds the next time? Little johnny does it again.

When I was growing up "Spanking" became illegal because it is so called child abuse. My parents did not care, If i did somthing wrong i would get faced with the wooden spoon on a bare bum. Do you think I thought twice about doing that again? Yes... so you think throwing a dog in the kennel for hours on end because it was just trying to protect you is fair? NO.... Anything a dog does today is the reaction to your actions.

It will take very little time to break and correct a habit quite possibly can be done in 2 months of hard work. But it may be mentaly straining on you and the family.

A dog does somthing wrong you have to correct is swiftly and firmly. because the dog will remember what happened for an average of 3-5 seconds. not wait until you are out of public eye to do somthing.

You can over due disapline on a dog and wreck the dog if the punishment does not fit the crime. or you can under due disapline and be faced with this situation. The best way to train a dog is to scorn the dog very firmly (for me it is verbal 80% of the time) and if the dog does not stop it gets scruffed real good. That will get a dogs attention.

The dog whisper is a very accomplished trainer but 2 things that everyone can take out of what he teaches is there are always over the top rewards teaching the good things, and just enough punishments for the bad things so the dog will not want to do it again. Not a beating to death with a stick for barking.

Dutchie

[wolverine]

Good post Dutchie. The key is to let them know if they have done right or wrong and to not go overboard with the discipline or you ruin the dog and turn it into a cowering, pissing mass. I often compare raising children to that of raising a well behaved dog. They both need to know who the boss is and they need boundaries set and need to know that crossing those boundaries is going to bring swift and sure consequences. An impolite yappy or aggressive dog is the same as having a child of the same nature. No one wants it around. Well behaved and mannered and they are a pleasure to spend time with but in both, you are only going to get out of it what you put into it. Lots of time, love and discipline is usually the key.

[Stoneddallhunter]

Sounds like he may be gaining the upper hand with you already. A few bucks spent with a master trainer will pay off huge to correct this now, before he becomes a real problem.

Best advice given so far. Sadly most humans do not put forth proper effort to properly train themselves or thier dogs.

Check my PM. My wife is a world class, master trainer and will have you and your dog properly trained. Especially you.

We have a kennel close by where the dog can be boarded during training.

It is not cheap but it is worth every penny.

[Stoneddallhunter]

I agree with this 100%.

But there is still the agression issue that needs to be tamed. This is going to have to re enforced very heavily and your wife and kids will probably complain about you "abusing" the dog, by making it whimper and whine.

Kids these days will through temper tantrums and what to they get, "johnny please don't do that, it hurts Mommy's feelings"... What happeneds the next time? Little johnny does it again.

When I was growing up "Spanking" became illegal because it is so called child abuse. My parents did not care, If i did somthing wrong i would get faced with the wooden spoon on a bare bum. Do you think I thought twice about doing that again? Yes... so you think throwing a dog in the kennel for hours on end because it was just trying to protect you is fair? NO.... Anything a dog does today is the reaction to your actions.

It will take very little time to break and correct a habit quite possibly can be done in 2 months of hard work. But it may be mentaly straining on you and the family.

A dog does somthing wrong you have to correct is swiftly and firmly. because the dog will remember what happened for an average of 3-5 seconds. not wait until you are out of public eye to do somthing.

You can over due disapline on a dog and wreck the dog if the punishment does not fit the crime. or you can under due disapline and be faced with this situation. The best way to train a dog is to scorn the dog very firmly (for me it is verbal 80% of the time) and if the dog does not stop it gets scruffed real good. That will get a dogs attention.

The dog whisper is a very accomplished trainer but 2 things that everyone can take out of what he teaches is there are always over the top rewards teaching the good things, and just enough punishments for the bad things so the dog will not want to do it again. Not a beating to death with a stick for barking.

Dutchie

Another example of good advice.

There is no need to "break" a dog or make it whimper or whine. You must show the dog what is acceptable and unacceptable through the use of effective training, voice intonations, and proper use of equipment.
Most, if not all, canine behavioral problems can be solved with proper training. There is never, ever, ever any need to hurt a dog. You must simply show the dog in a way it will understand. It is very simple if you know what you are doing.

Most importantly, the OWNER of the dog needs to be properly trained.

[Stoneddallhunter]

4) Our real dilemma is that we want to breed Kingston down the road. We know that we cannot be breeding him if he is an agressive dog. So the question up for debate is....How long do we wait before we decide to neuter him? Or, how long CAN we wait before it is too late to neuter him? Or, will it even help with dominance issues if we neuter him?

Why on earth do you want to breed him?

Please do yourself a huge favour by making the wise decision to neuter the dog and get proper training. Two of the best things that you will ever do. Lose the desire to breed Kingston and concentrate on having a good life with him.

[Jimsue]

That's what I was thinking as I read through this, aggresive and likes to hump are not traits I look for in a stud dog, Can you tell us what good traits he has that you think makes him worthy of being a stud dog?

I have put two dogs down for being aggresive, not my breedings, but why should you take a chance that your dog bites some little girl on the face.

How is the dogs obediance? and be honest, it sounds like he needs some work and fast.

[dutchie]

I think that we are being hard on Wiley, but I don't think that Breeding a dog with out the undertanding of genetics and the genes the dog carries is a smart idea for any body.

If you are planning on breeding the dog you should get his hips x-rayed, get his eyes checked, and figure out from the other reg'd dogs and see if it is a trait of the litter to be aggressive or if it is just the handling.

Just because he is a great looking dog does not he is breed quality stock. If you look at the AKC, CKC, UKC show dogs they can have grade 4 HD, bad eyes, skulls that are too small for thier actual brains so they have ceisures, elbow problems ect... These dogs are bred for the strick purpose of money, it is not to enhance the breed of good quality dog. A show champion dogs sperm is worth alot of money because at dog shows you can win alot of money.

Is Kingston a purebred dog? The reason I ask is because I can pull up the reg'd name and see the pedigree back to the 10th Generation. The reason this is important is because the qualities a dog carries come from thier ancestory. the most influancial dog in a Pedigree is actually the Bitch that whelped the litter. The stud dog will carry some traits to the other dogs but the pups are inside the mother being a part of her for the full gestation period. This is called the Motherline. You don't want to breed him to just any dog because you do not know the genes the other dog carries and that is why some breeds have so many problems. Breeding for looks rather then function is the recipie for destruction of a breed

What you would be looking for is some sort of breed history of the dog, were there any well known dogs? What was the Mother good at? what Qualities are you planning on passing down in the line of that dogs pedigree?

And now the Big question, Are you going to breed a litter to better the Breed of dog? Or is this for Financial gain? If you are planning on breeding for financial gain you are breeding for the wrong reason, if you are planning on breeding for personal gain it is not fair to the breed of dog and Nutering is the best place to start.

If you do have a reg number I can pull up the Inbreeding co-efficiancy and get the 10 gen pedigree for you so you will know if he has good blood in him or if he was just from a back yard breeder.

Dutchie

[Ben Fougere]

Dutchie, thank you for your contribution to the debate. I have yet to do some research on his past and we will have to get all the necessary exams.

If we do breed Kingston, it will be to keep the breed going and NOT for financial gain. I am very impressed with how much the breed loves the water. It's a natural instinct both in the lake and in the river. He is a classic chesapeake. He's friendly to everyone and once he's been around the new people or dogs he does his own thing unless they want to play with him. I understand that I have a lot of work to do, it's simply that we are not sure about the time frame we have before neutering will be hard on the dog.

I think that I should not have used the word "agression" in this discussion title. It should more suitably read..."Dog Dominance." I get the impression that some people think I am talking about my dog as if he is agressive and that is not the case, unless one considers dog agression and dog dominance to be the same.

Stoneddallhunter, I don't know if I will be contributing to your training program right now. I get the impression that you aren't out to help, but to make a quick buck. I'm looking for advice and not a trainer. Sorry.

So......To recap my issue....Kingston wanted to hump another dog. He's never been so fixated like it before. He is NOT agressive. He's SUPER friendly. I was just wondering if this "humping" is going to get worse. We stay on top of him and stop him every time it happens. It was simply different than we've ever seen with this new dog. And, the dilemma I have with this issue is; can we get rid of the humping if we neuter him? Although, I'm not convinced the humping has to do with him having testicles. I think that the humping is a dominance issue and controllable whether or not a dog has his boys intact.

Does that make sense? Hard to get your point across on these forums.

[Devilbear]

I had both my Rottweilers, Axel and Woden neutered at close to 3 years old as although Axel, in particular was a superb show specimen, he did not like shows and really only wanted to be with my wife and protect her. This was the original purpose behind buying a Rottweiler again, for city life.

Axel and Woden both would "hump" sometimes and Axel would also do this with "Lily" my little show bitch and potential breeder....neutering does NOT affect these SECONDARY sexual characteristics although it tends to lessen wandering. I neuter/spay ALL my canines, even the finest potential show prospects UNLESS I am going to show-breed them and then, after three litters, any bitch is spayed.

Kingston sounds to me like a perfectly normal dog and one I would LOVE to have....I love dogs and would have scores of them, if I could afford it, cats, too. I am certainly NO "expert", but, over 50 years of being "owned" by dogs has taught me a few things and it is often easy to worry too much about perfectly normal behaviour.

Work on basic obedience training first, to the point where Kingston obeys instantly without hesitation.....Chessies, like Rotties, are NOT so easy to get ot this point, unlike Labs and GSDs....BUT, the final result is worth the effort, IMHO.

[Busterbrown]

If you went through Doug`s seminar I am sure there was a discussion on e-collar . Get your dog collar conditioned fast and get a collar. The first time he tries to exhibit this behavoir a serious correction is in order. Problem solved

[huntwriter]

Time to clear up a few myth.

Neutering and spaying a dog, or any animal for that matter, does not change emotions or character of an animal it only changes desire.

Kicking, beating and screaming does not work as a training method. All this does is suppress an undesirable behavior out of fear and turns the animal into a ticking time bomb.

Animal training has to be consistent in an emotion free environment. Meaning it should be free of emotions such as anger, not feeling well, impatience and tempers. Animal pick up very quickly on human emotions and it confused the heck out of them. The most important training tool is the humans voice and body language. The voice has to be clear and neutral of emotions. The body language has to be positive and reaffirming, not submissive or threatening.

Giving an animal tidbits is okay if used correctly and not as a bribe. There is a very fine line between reward and bribe. More often than not rewards are used unknowingly to the inexperienced trainer as bribe. Petting the animal and making a bit of a "fuss" is a much better way to reward an animal for desirable behavior than food.

In order to get an animal to cooperate it first has to fully trust the trainer/owner. This can not happen if the animal gets mixed messages. Most undesirable behavior come from a lack of the animals trust in the human. Meaning the animal feels insecure. To gain trust takes time and commitment on part of the human. Trust can not be gained by the use of force, fear or inflicting pain or discomfort on the animal.

[Night Hawk 3]

I have read some of, but not all of the posts here due to a lack of time. Here are some of my thoughts on the subject:

Aggressive/dog-aggressive dogs should be neutered/spayed immediately. I have no time for any type of aggression in dogs.

Aggressive dogs need to be closely watched and not trusted at all. Do not leave aggressive dogs near small animals or children - whether they are being watched/supervised or not.

Do not breed a dog unless he has been proven to be both physically and mentally sound. There are more than enough good breeders out there who know what they are doing, and we don't need any more people who think their dog is wonderful and want to keep him/her intact for breeding. Get it cut right away, your life will be much easier as a result.

You absolutely can not train the instinct out of a dog. If you want a retriever, don't buy a German Shepherd. If you want a herding dog, don't expect your Golden to do it... Fighting breeds are just that. Game pursuit dogs are just that as well. Get the dog that suits your purpose and lifestyle.

DO NOT use one of those stupid extending leashes to train your dog or even walk your dog. It is the worst piece of dog equipment ever invented. They do not demonstrate any control over the dog and the dog knows it. The absolute worst behaving dogs are on the extendo leashes - and it is that way for a reason (stupid mis-informed owners, badly trained dogs etc...).

Get your dog to proper socialization classes and get proper training from/with a professional. Not all types of training work for all kinds of dogs. Find a trainer that is balanced and can train with correction and reward both - I personally don't have much time for touchy-feely trainers who won't correct a dog that needs it.

Learn how to be the dominate animal in the dog's relationship with your family. You whole family must be above the dog in hierarchy. There are myriad ways in which this plays out - be aware of all of your actions and how the pertain to what your dog perceives. Your dog is a master of watching and responding to your actions and behaviours, and it won't miss very much - you lead by example.

Do not allow your dog to be aggressive around its food dish, or any type of food for that matter. Can you grab food out of its mouth without it snarling or showing any form of non-submission? If not, get training right away. Your dog should allow you to so pretty much anything to it without any time type of aggressive behaviour shown.

You should desensitize your dog to having its hair and skin tugged on by children. Easy to do, but takes a little time to nail down perfectly.

Avoid striking your dog. There are effective ways of correcting your animal without striking it, but sometimes a little tap works wonders. Neck scruffing works very well if done properly, as can a growl (once you've taught it that you mean business).

When you command your dog, do it clearly and do it once. If the dog does not repsond after a few moments (you can give them some 15 to 20 seconds when they are first learning), then a correction is immediately needed. Immediate correction is a powerful trainig tool - use it appropriately, and you will have a very controllable animal.

...gotta' go, work calls...

NH3

[Stoneddallhunter]

Stoneddallhunter, I don't know if I will be contributing to your training program right now. I get the impression that you aren't out to help, but to make a quick buck. I'm looking for advice and not a trainer. Sorry.

I understand your position and repect it. Your impression is wrong. Please dont apologize. Most people need to have a serious wake up call such as a dog killing a neighbors dog, a dog running into traffic, or a dog biting a human before they understand the importance of basic obedience. You are dead wrong when you say I am not out to help. I made a suggestion to you that is guaranteed to work. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge, time, and effort that goes into training a dog and its owner properly. It costs money.

It has been my observation that very few, if any at all are prepared to listen, learn, and carry out the proper training of an animal unless they pay for it. Most people just are not dedicated or knowledgeable about the subject. Our lessons are expensive for a reason. YOU are trained properly and you will have that knowledge for life. What you do with it is up to you.

There is no quick buck, as you allude to, in training dogs and thier owners. There is only a buck well spent. There is however tremendous satisfaction when a dog owner learns the proper methods and the dog has a good life.

[Jagermeister]

Maybe you could teach your dog self-gratification. That way, he will have all his desires taken care of at his leisure.
Now funny as this seems, I have to tell you about a tale told to me by an acquaintence. Now this tale took place at Bouchie Lake a little over 30 years ago, so WC, it's close to home.
Seems his friend's pooch would "toss" himself whenever the notion entered the dog's mind. The dog would sit back on his haunches and start stroking himself. Not long thereafter, a puddle would appear on the floor. Of course this dismayed the lady of the house as the damm dog would never clean up after himself, not to mention that a trip to the kitchen for a drink of water in the middle of the night could result in stepping into the dog spunk. The dog must have been pretty intelligent because it seemed to favor his pastime when visitors were around.
This was long before AFV, so you can see the potential here. You get your dog on video tossing himself off, you're garanteed $100,000. Better hurry with the training:lol::lol:

[Stoneddallhunter]

One of my dogs used to do it spontaneously. With only the power of his mind. Eyes would roll back and everything. He was a good boy and always lapped it up. The larger the crowd the more he did it. A bit of an exhibitionist.

[dutchie]

If you went through Doug`s seminar I am sure there was a discussion on e-collar . Get your dog collar conditioned fast and get a collar. The first time he tries to exhibit this behavoir a serious correction is in order. Problem solved

In a problem like this I would leave the power to the utility companies because the only thing this will do is make your dog collar smart. a dream with the collar on a absolute ass off the collar.

I am going to give the best info that I know for demanding obediance.

Always keep him on a long lead (20-30 foot long and not an EXTENDO leash...I bought climbing rope and made my own. I find them very affect) so if he starts doing somthing bad you can reel him in. When het gets in praise him and make him keep you as the focus. The reason why a dog dosn't want to listen because if it listens it gets to stop having its fun which to a dog is punishment, and if it dosn't listen then it gets in trouble,coming to you has to be a very positive experiance.

Never tell a dog to come and then scorn it, if there is a problem you go and get the dog. Why som may ask? the dog listens and then gets in trouble. Confuses the heck out of the dog.

and never give a cammand you can't or will not enforce.the reason why is because if you give a command if there is no way to enforce it, It's like playing background music, no one is listnening to it...

A dog in the down position with its head on the ground is the ultimate submission and enforcing that. this will be tough because of the hard head of the breed but HUGE praise is what is needed. Like I said before, Never under due the praise, act like a babling moron and you will be giveing the right amount of praise. Nothing Succeeds like Success and always watch the dogs tail. If it is not wagging you need more praise. Dogs love praise and nothing will make them happier then when you are happy.

and A dog will never get it right the first time. Show the dog 5,6,10 times before expecting the dog to do it on its own and then re-show the dog on the next training session.

and the 2 other rules in training to adhead to is always leave with the dog wanting more, and never leave on a bad note, even if the dog just has to do a retreive to get you to praise him it has to be a good experiance for the dog.

Kingston is approximatly 12-16 months isn't he?! I am sorry i didn't pick up on this earlier. As a dog ages the first year of a dog is approximatly 13-14 human years as for matutity and about 7 years for every human year after that

so being if he is 18 months old would make him the buck wild 17-18 years old....:shock: Do you remember what we wanted to do and didn't care what would happen around that time?!

If he is he is at the ager of 13-18 years old for a human. Can you remember how you knew everything? wanted to do what you wanted all the time? said screw you to athority?

Any intact male hunting breed is known for this because they are trying to find thier independance. Some worst then others.

Also i am curious, most AKC,CKC dogs you need to buy the breeding rights was this the case for Kingston? those rights usually cost somewere in the $2000 range. so for a purebred Chessie it would be in the range of $2800-$3600 for the breeding stock dog. (that is to be a papered litter)

Wiley, send me a PM with your email address I have some training literature for you to read. it may be very helpful for you.

Dutchie

[Stoneddallhunter]

A person must know what they are doing with an E collar. It is a field of knowledge unto itself. Many trainers in France use them with great results.

I do not use an E-collar for obedience. Pinch collar and leash is my preference.

My current dog is trained to perform a silent recall with an E-collar. I can put her in a long down behind a tree, walk 500 metres through the bush, changing directions and sit. When I press the button it is her cue to track me and recall to my side. Works like a dream. Especially when hunting!

[BlacktailStalker]

Anybody who uses a tritronics needs to try it on themselves before their dog. Its important to know what you're doing to your dog before you push that button.
I too mostly use the tone button on my tritronics for my hounds, one of the best things invented for long range dog work.

True story; New guide hired, wasnt familiar with tritronics. Buddy said you need to know what you're doing to my dogs so strap it on and give yourself a zap. Buddy drops his drawers (most guys would just put it on their arm you'd THINK!) Straps it around his bare thigh, hands the transmitter to his boss AFTER SWITCHING IT TO level 6 !!!
He said it was like a gift from god, blinking to see if this is for real, well damn straight he pushed that button and held it for a good 3 seconds.
Collar boy ejected out of his seat, knocked the table over, wailing like a girl and pissed himself. No b.s !

I only tried it on 2 on my wrist and "felt it" :lol:

Biggest mistake people do is throw the collar on the dog and use it right away. You have to let him wear it for however long you think is necassary that he wont relate it to you. Take it on and off several times, make it normal handling and when you do use it, dont point the transmitter at him or do anything for him to clue in thats its you that holds the electric hand because if he does, you're had.

[Busterbrown]

A dog must be collar conditioned before putting it on a dog and pushing some buttons. There are many programs used by trainers to get a dog to the point of knowing how to turn off pressure. This begins by giving the dog a command that he knows then applying a very small amount of knicks until the command is done. This could start with remote sitting your dog and walking a short distance away. You then call your dog to you with small knicks until he gets to you then the pressure stops. . Many retrievers are also "forced to the pile " a drill where you command fetch and apply pressure until the dog picks up the bumper.Again the dog must know the fetch command before hand . A collar is not the proper training tool if a dog does not get collar conditioned before putting it to use

[Stoneddallhunter]

I do not train hunting dogs so my applications of an e-collar are different as is my knowledge level.
We work with obedience, protection, and competitive dogsport (French Ringsport).

[Steve Works]

No joke, check out the dog whisper reading material or website. he has some really helpful tips and techniques to help deal with dominat dogs.

Indeed. I have had great success with his material.
________________________________________
Steve Works
Customs broker (http://www.w2c.ca/homepage.html)