German Short-haired Pointers

[Haddy]

Does anyone know of a good breeder of GSP's in B.C.? Preferably in the lower mainland. I've been doing some researching and think that this will be my next dog. Any info will be appreciated.

Haddy

[Big Blaze]

I believe there is a women in Langley that breeds them, however I cant think of her name or the kennel name. If you google it I am sure you will find it, as I believe that how I did

[Angel]

Hey Haddy.

I would look into Parador GSP's they are in langley, there is also Peregrine Kennels in Alberta.

I would also talk to Dutchie on HBC about Deutsch Kurzhaars, they are a very interesting breed of GSP's.

[dutchie]

Janet Atkinson or Parador GSP's has some pups that just were sold off... Her bitch comes from Leo at No Mars down in Caldwell Idaho.

I belive the last Parador litter was bred to a dog from Conway (conally?) Kennels and that was a the first out cross from the No-mars dogs. It should be interesting to see how the dogs test, or even if they do.

Paragrine GSP in alberta have produced some great dogs but I shy'd away because of one the the stud dogs history with problem pups but the stud dog is a very well known dog and has tested exceptionaly well in NAVHDA and AKC and now CKC but has had some problems with a recessive Gene.

I have done the research on all the Good GSP, GWP, DD and DK breeders and i can tell you the good new and the bad news from most of them.

PM sent

Dutchie

[Devilbear]

I am primarily a Rottweiler person, now, but, have been seriously considering a DD for some time, mostly to locate wounded game. I would greatly appreciate any info. on breeders of the type you mention.

[huntingfamily]

Hey Dutchie,

I am looking into getting a dd puppy and I was wondering if you could give me any info on dogs, breeders that I should check out or avoid.
Also, is the breed any good?

Thx,
hf



I have done the research on all the Good GSP, GWP, DD and DK breeders and i can tell you the good new and the bad news from most of them.

PM sent

Dutchie

[dutchie]

"Buck" has a DD.

I have a DK

If you are thinking of a DD for tracking you should also coicider the DK. The reason being is that the DD is better for waterfowling (double coat over single coat) but not quite as good as the DK for the blood track.(basic genetic make up of very strong Nose dogs in the DK to the wire hair double coat of the DD)

Mooseman ownes associated Outfitters in Prince George - He is who I have talked to about blood tracking as that is what kind of business he is in and has had DK's before for tracking. He never tested them but they were great for the tracking he said. The weather did not bother them because they have a very deep chest.

The DD is thought to be very similar to the DK but the only similarity is a the English Pointer and the DK itself.

The dogs in the genetic makeup of a DD
Old German Standard Poodle - The foundation for the DD
English Pointer
Griffon, Stichelhaar, and Pudelpointer — with the German Shorthair or Deutsch Kurzhaar to ultimately arrive at the Deutsch-Drahthaar.

The Dogs in the Genetic Makeup of a DK
The DK was derived from compleatly different dogs
Hannoverian Schweisshund - the foundation for a DK
Old Spanish Pointer,
Old German pointer
English Pointer.
Some sources even state that the foxhound was used to slim down the body structure and add speed.

The temperment of a DD is very similar but in the breed they do not have a aggression test were the DK does. ALSO the DK has a 500m blood track over the DD's 300m for the standard VGP test. there are 20SW and 40SW tests that the DK's have and I belive the DD has them aswell.

The Hannoverian Schweisshund is belived to be the predisessor to the Blood hound were that is the foundation of the DK. The German Poodle is the scent tracking behind the DD.

Of the 2 German Breeds the Deutsch Drathaar and the Deutsch Kurzhaar the Kurzhaar wins in the Blood track but the Drathaar wins in the Waterfowling.

Don`t get me wrong Both are VERY GOOD at pointing, retriving and tracking but there are the foundations that differ which gives one the edge in different feilds then the others.

As a result the DK and DD are 2 completly different breeds.

Aggression is the wrong word but the DD will not be as tolerant to somthings. Example of many DD`s but not all DD`s - DK you can take food and treats away with the dog looking at you and waiting to get it back, a DD will Growl and snarl so you don`t want to touch the food ever again.

The GSP and the GWP are also crossed alot different because when the dogs came to NA in 1920 the breed was still in the final stages of setting standards, the USA did not want to adhear to these standards and crossed in a few other dogs to make them run longer, but taking the desire for water away and the ability to blood track with percission away at the same time.

Dutchie

[Devilbear]

This is exactly what I was looking for as my needs are for the blood tracking and I am not interested in waterfowl. I have known two very experienced hunters who do this AND they had GSPs.

I have read about and seen a few GWPs and was not clear on whether they would be the best choice for me; it seems that a DK would be exactly what I want, a nice little bitch with a friendly disposition as my Rott Goddess tolerates NO nonsense and I will always have 1-3 Rotts running my life!

Where would you suggest buying a GOOD DK from, price is not the issue with me where my dogs are concerned and I want the BEST working stock available, if, I follow through wih this.

[houndogger]

This is exactly what I was looking for as my needs are for the blood tracking and I am not interested in waterfowl. I have known two very experienced hunters who do this AND they had GSPs.

I have read about and seen a few GWPs and was not clear on whether they would be the best choice for me; it seems that a DK would be exactly what I want, a nice little bitch with a friendly disposition as my Rott Goddess tolerates NO nonsense and I will always have 1-3 Rotts running my life!

Where would you suggest buying a GOOD DK from, price is not the issue with me where my dogs are concerned and I want the BEST working stock available, if, I follow through wih this.

Mooseman could find you the best dog to suit your needs Kut, but he does use his dogs to track down all those big rich yankee hunters wounded game so I dought you could get along:biggrin::wink:

[dutchie]

Mooseman could find you the best dog to suit your needs Kut, but he does use his dogs to track down all those big rich yankee hunters wounded game so I dought you could get along:biggrin::wink:

Yeah Moosman i belive just got a dog from the cezch republic that specializes in blood tracking.

Very interesting sport imo

[Devilbear]

Probably not, but, I seldom hunt big, rich yankees,so, another breeder's line will probably suffice for my needs.

That Euro. type is what I am after as I want a small, hardbodied and working bitch, not an American showdog type.

[houndogger]

Probably not, but, I seldom hunt big, rich yankees,so, another breeder's line will probably suffice for my needs.

That Euro. type is what I am after as I want a small, hardbodied and working bitch, not an American showdog type.

Well he is a normal family man, has two boys and a wife. Makes living with his small outfit and he is Canadian:wink: He has been to to Europe a multiple times doing blood tracking in real hunting situations. Talks with and knows lots of reputal breeders. I would bet he is the go to guy in Canada for getting into blood tracking.

[riflebuilder]

I have a GWP that looks more like a Griffon, She is real hairy. I am breeding her to a slick GWP/GSP male. Pups in September. She is a great bird dog and the stud is good on birds too. I got the dog from a cpl here on HBC. I used to have a GSP that I breed to a GWP and the pups were some of the best bird dogs I have ever hunted over. All of the people that bought the pups called back to see if I was ever breeding my female again. The cross for me has produced better dogs than the purebreds.

[dutchie]

This is the biggest misconception you have stated, so far. How many DD's and DK's have you hunted over and tested with and generally been around??? I already know and I can tell very few.

Fellow hunters, please be very wary of so-called internet experts. Do your own research and come to tests to see for yourself. Never trust what is said by a first-time fci registered dog owner who now has a puppy
and all the answers too!
With all due respect sir, "you are as green as the grass in this field".

For accurate information, please check out the following links:
http://www.vdd-canada.ca/public/index.htm
http://www.nadkc.org/
http://www.vdd-gna.org/

Cheers,
hf

Hey thanks for the interesting reply. I talked to you on the phone a little while ago and there was no time of day for me because I had a DK and you have a DD?? would that be you?! If not, wow you are the first 2 people I have had the displeasure of communicating with about these great breeds

First off, there are also DD's and DK's with HD and elbow problems (VERY FEW). I was talking about the Majority of them.

It is funny that all of the info that I stated came from those exact websites.

http://www.nadkc.org/nadkc_deutsch_kurzhaar_info.htm

3rd paragraph halfway down is the breed make up of the DK :shock:

http://www.vdd-canada.ca/public/the-dd-history-and-characteristics.htm

entire 3rd paragraph is the breed make up of the DD:shock:

You better get on Ken Dinn to update the site VDD-Canada site to the VDD-GNA site because there is the history of the breed on the site he is the chairman and according to you it is inccorect.

I bet that you have the Gray Book infront of you. And you are a DD owner. I have both the Drathaar Puppy Manual and the Gray Book. The VJP is different for the DD then the Derby is for the DK the Solms is different from the HZP. After you said that about the VGP, i just spent a weekend training with a DK owner taking this dog to the VGP and he was telling me that the DK is a 500m blood track. We both may be wrong but for someone that has tested many many dogs in the system, is a judge for the german system, and is helping the breed more then you and I will combined in the next 5 years, I am going to take his expertise over yours.

I am hoping that when you said I was wrong about your blood tracking titles you were mistaken and it was unintentional. There ARE the 2 blood tracking titles SW20 and SW40- you can't be that far off base.

The parameters in the other tests are different or else it would be called the same test would it not? My breeder reccomended I do not test with the Drathaars rather the NADKC tests because they are different. What would he know, he is just the President of the NADKC. Ohh yeah, he is also the top Judge for the NADKC and he is the guy that gets the German Judges into North America and tests DK in Germany from one of his 3 kennels, Head judge for the Zuchtschaus. The tests are similar but they are different.

Maybey the NADKC sets a higher standard then the JGHV? American Judges are apperently harder on dogs then the German Judges. I will call Rob tomorrow and ask him if there is a differenace

Have I tested a dog in the system? No

The information about the waterfowling and coat types came from Roger on one telephone call and Nancy on another 2. Roger and Nancy know the drathaar fairly well so if you are right and they are wrong, you should go and take over vom Altmoor. Also my Breeder, Rob Engelking, judes the Zuchtschaus.... WEIRD conformation and Coat expert... we talked about coats when I finally made my decission for the DK. After all he is only a breeder that probably dosn't know too much about the breeds or the coats. May I remind you he is a DK breeder... telling me a DK is not as good in the very cold water as a DD... But it is a common misconcetption.

Here is also a Link from VDD Canada - read the breif historical Summary and also coat types.

http://www.vdd-canada.ca/public/the-breeding-system-the-breed-standard.htm


And yes it is a Gernerization about the noses, but at the same time if you put a Blood hound up against a Poodle for a blood track with the average of both breeds, who is going to be better at it? they both have great noses, but i am not sure why it sould be called a blood hound!:roll:

What you are saying tho is silly, there are dogs that will become IKP, KS, INT CH at 4 years old... will every dog? no, but that has to do with the genetics.Anyone can make teh argument that there deviation in the dogs, but in the German tests there is a standard. If you are looking for a Blood tracking dog, Look for a Bitch and Sire that have the SW40 titles... a dog with out those titles may not be as good at that one task.

Yes it is dog to dog but a handler like you or myself will never be able to take the DK's nose to the upper limit of its ability, neither with the DD's

Also if you were to put a Blood hound in the water against a poodle and tell them to chase a bird in -5 degree water... which dog will stand up better? that is a tough one... Single coat vs double coat?

As for the "crap" behind the Poodle (it is in the VDD canada website) and the Hannoverian Schweisshund.
http://www.thebreedsofdogs.com/HANOVERIAN_HOUND.htm

I read the tracking as scent tracking under the "old German Poodle" so yes there is 1 thing that I made a mistake on.:roll: I shall be crucified on the spot for such a stupid mistake.

If the VDD canada site is wrong about the breeds make up, then the last comment about the accurate info in the sites should be changed. The NADKC website is updated consistantly, and I would not question there knowledge, they know more then me about most of this stuff

The DD and the DK are both amazing dogs, I would be extatic if Goose tuned out like Kyla. I get the sence you think I am trying to make the DD look bad which is not true. They both have thier place or there would not be 2 different breeds.

If the tests, the coats, the noses, the conformation, the breed standard were the same and they were scored and judged the same what would be the point of a DD and DK why not just the DD? Why not just the DK?

Fellow hunters, Beware of a old guy that has tested a dog in the German System and forgets to use the internet as his own resoruce when trying to flame another board member for no apperant reason.

And the tests are fun to go to, the people I have met at them have been awsome and always wanting/willing to help with any/everything. I have met only DK guys in person but I have met Buck too ,a DD guy, and he is a really nice guy. I thought the DD guys would be the same as the DK guys.

This my be my first FCI/DKV reg'd dog but i have been studing the breeds for a long time and I use the internet and telephone to talk to breeders, and research the breeds

Thanks for giving me somthing to do tonight, I actually really enjoy reading about these breeds, with your attempt to flame me, you actually made my night even better :mrgreen:

Dutchie

[dutchie]

The VDD-Canada and VDD-GNA have different difinitions of the breed history, and what makes the dog.

From VDD-Canada

The breeders who supported this movement looked first to the old German Standard Poodle — for its retrieving, tracking and calm demeanor — and to the English Pointer — for its nose, style and search in the field. Through a series of experiments they bred the best of the coarse hair breeds — Griffon, Stichelhaar, and Pudelpointer — with the German Shorthair to ultimately arrive at the Deutsch-Drahthaar. Their idea was to take the very best wherever they found it and use it for the advancement toward the characteristics they wanted in a versatile dog. The crossbreeding strategy of these breeders was revolutionary and they received harsh criticism from other breeders. Nevertheless, they remained single-minded in their purpose and continued with uncompromising dedication until they reached their goal.

http://www.vdd-canada.ca/public/the-dd-history-and-characteristics.htm

From VDD-GNA

DEUTSCH STICHELHAAR--This is the oldest of the German Roughhaired breeds and probably is the closest tie to the medieval "German Pointer". The Stichelhaar is an extremely rugged dog, not large but powerful and sturdily built. His coat is very coarse, and he has heavy beard and eyebrows. The Stichelhaar is best known for excellent retrieving tracking and water work. They are adequate pointers but may require some improvement in the areas of fieldwork and intelligence.

GRIFFON--This ancient breed probably originated from the various rough-haired breeds of Belgium, France and Holland. Griffons have a blocky-build and a distinctive "Griffon-head". They are light brown in color, with heavy beard and bushy eyebrows. Because of intensive "pure-breeding", they have usual conformity in structure, texture and length of coat and consistency in color. The Griffon is an elegant pointer with outstanding field manners, good intelligence and trainability, and with much natural retrieving ability. Areas needing improving usually involve tracking and aggressiveness.

PUDELPOINTER--This breed originated as a new attempt to regenerate the old idea of a "Versatile hunting dog". These Poodle/Pointer matins were generally successful because of strict performance prerequisites to breeding. The Pudelpointer brings to the Drahthaar breed, the standard for conformation, good nose, pointing and retrieving ability, aggressiveness, desire for water work and a good protective coat. The emphasis, however, is on field and water work, forest work is subject to improvement.

DEUTSCH KURZHAAR --The original shorthair is often considered to be similar in many ways to the Stichelhaar, however, with an emphasis on field work rather than on water and forest work. Intelligence and nose are also outstanding. This breed is said to have contributed less to the Drahthaar than the other breeds.

http://drahthaar.vdd-gna.org/

:roll: i dunno which one is right! I am guessing one of them is tho

[Angel]

Hey Dutchie, well researched and well spoked defense of the DK. i would also think that DK and DD owners would be on the same side lol.

Personaly from being a GSP follower to a DK follower, I find that the VDD-Canada and the VDD GNA have conflicting information. Easier to trust the NADKC info in my opinion or Rob or Lisa for that matter. I am by no means an, "expert" actually I am, "as green as the grass in this field".
with the DK's and DD for sure. But by being a "rookie" with the DK's its helpful because you dont have conflicting info clouding your judgement and I prefer to get the info from the Professional breeders. Which thanks Dutch, you listed in your post. All the fun if researching and getting helpful input from other DK and DD owners.

Huntingfamily, why flame a fellow HBC dog owner who is just helping to inform and help out. If you feel there is conflicting information or inaccurate information, please by all means bring it to attention, but in a tasteful manner.

Sincerely a fellow DK and DD follower, getting my DK this Spring :grin:

[Jimbo]

Dog Snobs ... Bah !!

[riflebuilder]

good dogs are never snobby, just good dog owners...lol

[stixnstones]

hey haddy i have one gsp right now. i had two up til christmas. was too much with baby on the way. i got my purebread akc female from buckley,washington. there names were scott n roxanne chavis. championship bloodlines. i walked into there house to see there walls covered in ribbons,plaqes, n trophies. i can give u there e mail address if you wanna chat to them. what i loved the most was she was 95 percnt brown with a white chest. there friend runs the gsp rescue center in vancouver,b.c. Very very very good dog. i had to let her go to a fellow hbc r.good luck. pm me if you need any help or info. all there pups were pointing at eight weeks.really awesome to c.

[Waggus]

Hey Haddy, I have had three GSP's from Leo at No-Mars in Caldwell. Great dogs. The 2 I have now are from different breedings. One hunts big and fast for a shorthair and the other hunts close and slow, the birds don't have a chance. Leo will ship dogs to Vancouver. He trains to the NAVHDA standards and his dogs are tops.
I am a novice so I have Barry Kolodychuk from Streamline Retriever's in Chiliwack help with the training. He has them now actually. He raves about them and says they're awesome but I do pay him. You could call for a reference check.
Janet Atkinson does have dogs from Leo as I understand. I have never met or spoke with her, but I have heard great things about her Dogs.
As far as the GSP DD DK debate, you're on your own. I have had 3 from two different breedings. I have a 3 yr old that is a ferarri and I lost a 1 1/2 year old and now have his little brother they are escalades. One breeding Hauss/Vicky the other two were Hauss/Feta. The Hauss/Feta dogs are so different than My older Hauss/Vicky dog. The point is personality and temperment can be so different even in breeds with well defined standards. Just my experience but just the different bitches really is obvious in their personalities. Leo's dogs are quite lean as well, I would say on the small side of the spectrum. I work to keep my three year old at 60 pounds. He is a serious machine. I meet a lot of GSP's around 75 pounds. Like a lot of Leo's dogs mine are Blk/Wht as opposed to Liver/Wht.

If you're not crazy. You could meet my dogs if you were serious about pulling the trigger on one. It's nice to know and see what you might get. PM me.
Everyones Dog Is the best and mine are no different. Hope it helps.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u179/Waggus/IMG_1061.jpg[/IMG
]

[IMG]http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u179/Waggus/th_IMG_1061.jpg (http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u179/Waggus/?action=view&current=IMG_1061.jpg)

[Waggus]

They honor points as well.


http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u179/Waggus/IMG_1137-1.jpg

[riflebuilder]

nice looking dogs, nothing better than a dog looked on point.

[ruger#1]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/small_bear_010.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=5064&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=699)These are my four girls, the big one cooks for me and the little one nags me for money . The liver GSP has treed a few bears for me and the other one is so birdie it isnt funny. They are both fun and love fishing and hunting, There are some German Wirehaird GSPs in the Chilliwack paper forsale.

[deer nut]

Don't know any breeders, but I've had a GSP for the last 14 years (!). Be forewarned - they are extremely high-energy and if not properly socialized, very agressive towards other dogs. Mine has been a great dog for walks in the bush but is very needy and high-maintenance!

I would not get another unless I was going to train and use it specifcally for hunting.

[Waggus]

deer nut

I know what you're saying. My older dog is super high strung and insists on a lot of exercise and attention. Never really aggressive with other dogs but he does have a high opinion of himself and is intact. We tried to skip the puppy stage. We brought him home at 8 months. I think he really suffered not having that early socialization. His younger half brothers we got at 8 weeks and have been very well socialized and are as calm as kittens.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u179/Waggus/IMG_0909.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u179/Waggus/IMG_1122.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u179/Waggus/IMG_0914.jpg

[Waggus]

Last one.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u179/Waggus/IMG_0182_1.jpg

[dutchie]

Beauty dogs Wagnus! Your dogs are going to have less energy then a dog from Westwind GSPs or Shooting Star kennels, because fo thier liniage, but Leo in my mind produces a exceptional Shorthair. With adding in the German blood of Enzo that gave his dogs an Edge in NAVHDA testing because of the love and desire for water.

The sire of Hauss (Enzo) was a German Import, and one the most well recognized Short hair to test in NAVHDA and AKC ( in Enzo vom Lugwigsteins pedigree, in the last 5 gernerations there are 48 out of 60 dogs recieved the KS title!). In Germany the Vom Ludwigstien kennel has produced MANY MANY top german testing dogs and for No-Mars giving thier dogs the properties of the German dogs but adding the energy of AKC dogs Producing a hard running strong hunter but with more house manners.

Leo also introduces dogs to Birds starting at 4 weeks old, gets a few gun shots over them and implements kennels training right at his house. before the dogs leave to thier new homes.

PS - Your dogs have great style on point!

dutcie

[Waggus]

Speaking of Enzo,

He is at Indian Brook Kennels in Wellington CO. Tom and Julie are making some steller Dogs. They don't have as many litters as Leo but Tom does a lot of training for Leo.

Last summer my dogs went back to Leo for training and testing. They started with Leo and finished at Toms. My 1yr old, that I lost to a Bus in Oct, was a perfect score in the NA test. (Natural Ability, NAVHDA test). I have his younger Brother now 6 months and he looks identical.

Here is Kaiser, R.I.P. Honoring his older half brothers point.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u179/Waggus/IMG_1136.jpg

[riflebuilder]

all of these great pic makes a guy want to grab the shotgun and head out for phesants.

[.300wsm]

Does anyone know of a good breeder of GSP's in B.C.? Preferably in the lower mainland. I've been doing some researching and think that this will be my next dog. Any info will be appreciated.

Haddy

Parador is one too check, Janet I believe is her name I just couldnt wait so, I Bought a male from peregrine reg in Alberta, He's a fine gsp Im in Kelowna I had him flown here, the flight wasn't very much but worth every penny. He makes training easy, obedience and hunting. Cant wait till september. And oct for rooties.

good luck

[Timber-hunt]

I also got my gsp from peregrine reg in Alberta I live in the lower manland great people great dog easy to train www.peregrinegsp.com

[skeet]

Will Have German Shorthair Puppies In 2 Weeks(not Born Yet) Purebread Without Papers. I Hunt Grouse With Them. Have Both Male And Female. First Litter

[rchoward101]

Just an aside on a perhaps dead thread. We got our dog from Firepoint in Lethbridge, They have only one bitch but breed very very good dogs that are well socialized and cared for. Janna and Jassen are very very good. I think they are having another litter this fall.file:///I:/Documents%20and%20Settings/robert/Desktop/skeena.jpg

[SKEETER]

Hi . I Have Pups For Sale Now.they Will Be Ready To Go Oct 24 . There Are 7 Males 2 Females. Call Me At Home 250-642-7158. Sooke Bc. Will Go Fast . Thanks Russ.

[SKEETER]

I Have Some Pups They Are 1 Month Old.they Are Purbreeds,female With Papers.male With. I Do Hunt With Them.

[RyanGSP]

Just an aside on a perhaps dead thread. We got our dog from Firepoint in Lethbridge, They have only one bitch but breed very very good dogs that are well socialized and cared for. Janna and Jassen are very very good. I think they are having another litter this fall.file:///I:/Documents%20and%20Settings/robert/Desktop/skeena.jpg

What litter did you get your pup out of?

My guy Diego is out of the Asia x Max litter. His littermate sister is Geneva CH Firepoint Land of Living Skies who was bred to CH Shotshell's Indiana Jones FD "Indy" 2 summers ago.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g79/Ryan_GSP/CPDC%20Field%20Test/100_2603.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g79/Ryan_GSP/Field%20Test%20and%20Trials/DSC_0229.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g79/Ryan_GSP/Diego/100_1511.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g79/Ryan_GSP/Hunting%20Season%202008/DSC00309.jpg