No "any bull " moose season in the Peace

[lunatic]

Sorry guys, apparently due to the terrible tick infestation that occured in the Northeast area of the province during the 2007 and 2008 winter, there is not going to be an "any size" bull moose season in the Peace area this year. With the last couple of winters being hard on populations and the increased number of hunters in the area it will be spike / tri-palm for the entire season this year.

[GoatGuy]

April fools on Canada day?

[bearhunter338-06]

Just looked online nothing about it.

[Fisher-Dude]

That's just any bullshit. Nice attempt at trolling, but the season in the Peace will be as it was last year. Most reports indicate a strong recovery of moose populations in the areas that had tick problems.

You're 3 months late for April Fools.

[bigwhiteys]

Scared me into checking the new regs again...lol, We plan on dropping two "any bulls" in the peace on our way home from sheep hunting.

Carl

[hillclimber]

your just trying to get all of us to cancel our august moose hunts so you can shoot your own damn bull:-P

[recurvehunter]

strong reports of moose recovery???
where you get your info? I live in this country and spend a lot of time in the great outdoors and i would not use the words strong recovery.
I would say elk are doing fine but the moose population is way down. i know local people who are choosing not to hunt moose and only elk because the populations are way down and want to give them a chance to recover.

[Fisher-Dude]

strong reports of moose recovery???
where you get your info? I live in this country and spend a lot of time in the great outdoors and i would not use the words strong recovery.
I would say elk are doing fine but the moose population is way down. i know local people who are choosing not to hunt moose and only elk because the populations are way down and want to give them a chance to recover.

My friends in FSJ have told me that they are really surprised by the number of moose in areas that have been a bit barren the past couple of years. "Moose all over the place" was one of the comments. Some are farm boys who are out there all day too, so I trust their opinion on the trend (they were sure bitching when it took more than one day to fill their tags last year ;) ). Local phenomenon? Perhaps. But encouraging for sure.

As for the elk, I agree - we ought to be providing more opportunities for hunters to put those delicious treats into their freezers.

[lunatic]

Can't get much better opportunity than they allowed last year and i'm sure this year will be the same ( elk ). As for the moose, some areas were definately hit harder than others and are not going to recover in just one year.

[palmer]

Sorry guys, apparently due to the terrible tick infestation that occured in the Northeast area of the province during the 2007 and 2008 winter, there is not going to be an "any size" bull moose season in the Peace area this year. With the last couple of winters being hard on populations and the increased number of hunters in the area it will be spike / tri-palm for the entire season this year.

So any facts to this or is this FANTASY

[bridger]

posting bull shit threads like that should get you banned for life

[elkdom]

Can't get much better opportunity than they allowed last year and i'm sure this year will be the same ( elk ). As for the moose, some areas were definately hit harder than others and are not going to recover in just one year.

funniest thing, of recent years some of GO's in Reg7B have gone over to the "other side" as in they(the GO's) are working the oil patch, contracting for Oil and Gas doing reclamation contracts, seeding pipelines, riparian projects, oilfield security contracts, actually WORKING for their money!:idea: as for moose in reg 7B, I been scaring them farther into the bush, chances of seeing moose is very remote now, my secret to scaring moose away??




they dont like my WATCH! :sad:, tic tic tic tic tic tic tic,,,, :shock:

[lunatic]

posting bull shit threads like that should get you banned for life



Aw....easy Bridger.....someone loves you and will give you a hug! SOOOO much rage. Reminds me of how I got my nickname:razz:. No swearing on here. Now that CAN get you banned!

[palmer]

So do you have anymore info on this or what....

[BiG Boar]

I vote that Lunatic is just that.

[dutchie]

I can't grasp why you would start this thread with no actual facts from anyone other then yourself.

I have never thought of going up there for Moose becasue it is pretty far away, But I think that I am going to head up there.

It seems you are trying to hide somthing... Thanks for the good direction on where (not:-P) to shoot my Moose this year!

Dutchie

[eric]

Lunatic you bored or what ??????

[lunatic]

O.K. Fine, Yes I am bored....was up all day and night at work and can't sleep now. That's not why I started this thread though. I was actually curious how bad the reaction would be if this was to happen. I knew it would cause some bad feelings but wanted "real" reaction. We were discussing this recently with a "bio" and he said they actually did think about doing this at one point. Personally, I didn't believe him. Same as most of you thought about this post, I figured he was just trying to stir the s**t. It did get me wondering however. Industry is moving into the Peace area in astronomical numbers. Even if they do half of what they are talking about as far as oil/gas drilling, wind farms, "the" dam, etc., then this is probably a reality in the not too distant future. I for one, have not seen this huge kill-off that was talked about the last year or two. I believe others have though, so it is apparently "spotty". I spend every spare minute in the bush or on the river and only witnessed one dead moose last spring and that one a grizz was feeding on. Just really wondering I guess, how long we think we can keep exploiting this area without ill effects. This activity seems to have elk thriving....but the moose may or may not suffer. I seriously hope that all LML hunters and locals can continue to take advantage of this season if they wish to do so, but he did get me thinking.

[Dirty]

Shit is not a swear word on HBC. If it was a swear word it would be bleeped out like ****. Are the '09-'10 regs out at retailers already?

[lunatic]

Shit is not a swear word on HBC. If it was a swear word it would be bleeped out like ****. Are the '09-'10 regs out at retailers already?



No, usually another couple of weeks.

[palmer]

I know a friend who hunted by PINK MTN and they got there 4 Moose in two days....They said they saw plenty of moose...so I guess it is not bad all over...

[elkdom]

Shit is not a swear word on HBC. If it was a swear word it would be bleeped out like ****. Are the '09-'10 regs out at retailers already?

there are NO REGULATIONS for '09-'10 due to BUDGET shortfalls,

hunters have been given the mandate to ACT RESPONSIBLY,HARVEST RESPONSIBLY, harvest what you feel is enough, try and leave some critters for the next guy and next year,,, if that dont work out? book subsequent years hunts for Russia or Africa !,,,:idea:

[Gunner]

There will be no regulations this year ,as on August 1st(BC Day),Mr Campbell will announce the signing of the "Recognition Act" with BC First Nations,and all management of Fish and Wildlife will rest in their hands!:twisted: (not this year,but one of these days!). Gunner

[TheDuckinator]

I hope thats not true...

[dutchie]

I hope thats not true...

If that was true there would not be a shut down of the rut in region 5 and there would be no point in the LEH this year.

If there were no regs for this year there would be no hunting. There is hunting so there will be Regs

Dutchie

[goatdancer]

Lunatic
If you piss off Bridger, he will slap you silly. If you want up stir up shit, get ready for the pounding.

[elkdom]

Lunatic
If you piss off Bridger, he will slap you silly. If you want up stir up shit, get ready for the pounding.

heh heh heh,,, this i would pay money to see! :lol:

[lunatic]

Lunatic
If you piss off Bridger, he will slap you silly. If you want up stir up shit, get ready for the pounding.




:eek: Ahhhhaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaa!!!!!

[The Dawg]

heh heh heh,,, this i would pay money to see! :lol:


Oh me too...lmao

[elkdom]

Oh me too...lmao

haha, whats a lunar-cycle??

here's a hint, it involves ORBIT! lol :eek:

[moosinaround]

Ding Ding Ding!!! Round 1, NoahDawg pull out the loin cloth and advertise between rounds!! I think I puked!!:eek:

[The Dawg]

Ding Ding Ding!!! Round 1, NoahDawg pull out the loin cloth and advertise between rounds!! I think I puked!!:eek:


Its not a loin cloth...its a toga, remember? ;)

[gamehunter6o]

they dont like my WATCH! :sad:, tic tic tic tic tic tic tic,,,, :shock:

Only old fellas can read watches that go.. tic tic tic tic tic;-)

[bridger]

Aw....easy Bridger.....someone loves you and will give you a hug! SOOOO much rage. Reminds me of how I got my nickname:razz:. No swearing on here. Now that CAN get you banned!

could be but with all the important issues facing resident hunters and our continuing loss of hunting opportunities why not use your talents for something constructive instead of wasting everyone's time and energy. the real truth with moose in 7b is that if the goabc gets its way with the moe and moose are managed for trophy only we will lose the any bull season. why not concentrate on something useful?

[lunatic]

could be but with all the important issues facing resident hunters and our continuing loss of hunting opportunities why not use your talents for something constructive instead of wasting everyone's time and energy. the real truth with moose in 7b is that if the goabc gets its way with the moe and moose are managed for trophy only we will lose the any bull season. why not concentrate on something useful?


I seriously doubt I am wasting peoples time and energy on here Bridger. Anyone who has time to post on a website can't be TOO busy!

Now back to why I posted that. What does evryone think about this? Do you believe it is a possibility in the near future? Is that the MOE's plan - and if so, what can we all do? Should be lots of input into this as there are large numbers of hunters that travel this way for that season. If this WAS to happen......would you still travel up here for moose?

[hunter1947]

If I was a person that hunted 7b for moose every year I would not panic till I see the regs for that region for this year ,lots of rumors start and most of the time it is bull.

If this did happen it would put a lot of pressher on other area regions ,I know if I could not hunt 7b I would be headed to 7a or other areas.

All you moose hunters don't panic I'm sure this will not happenhttp://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[willy442]

funniest thing, of recent years some of GO's in Reg7B have gone over to the "other side" as in they(the GO's) are working the oil patch, contracting for Oil and Gas doing reclamation contracts, seeding pipelines, riparian projects, oilfield security contracts, actually WORKING for their money!:idea: as for moose in reg 7B, I been scaring them farther into the bush, chances of seeing moose is very remote now, my secret to scaring moose away??




they dont like my WATCH! :sad:, tic tic tic tic tic tic tic,,,, :shock:

Elkdom; I spent most of my life guiding and your comment on actually WORKING for thier money really shows how far your head is up your ass. You really have no idea and if you think I'm wrong. How about you put up a million and a half dollars and learn what work is.:evil:

[bridger]

I seriously doubt I am wasting peoples time and energy on here Bridger. Anyone who has time to post on a website can't be TOO busy!

Now back to why I posted that. What does evryone think about this? Do you believe it is a possibility in the near future? Is that the MOE's plan - and if so, what can we all do? Should be lots of input into this as there are large numbers of hunters that travel this way for that season. If this WAS to happen......would you still travel up here for moose?


stop and think about it isn't 7b the area with the most general open seasons for all species especially moose in the province? that didn't happen by chance it is the result of a lot of hard work over the years by bcwf reps. if you really want to do something constructive get on the band wagon and lobby for a general open season for moose in 7a. the leh moose season there is not based on conservation it is based on convienience

[lunatic]

stop and think about it isn't 7b the area with the most general open seasons for all species especially moose in the province? that didn't happen by chance it is the result of a lot of hard work over the years by bcwf reps. if you really want to do something constructive get on the band wagon and lobby for a general open season for moose in 7a. the leh moose season there is not based on conservation it is based on convienience



So are you trying to tell me that it was only the lobbying of the BCWF that kept this general open season around? You don't think it had anything to do with the many years of quad restrictions etc. that had to have helped with game numbers? Cust curious.
BTW - could you elaborate on what you mean by " based on convenience". Not sure what you are getting at there.

[lunatic]

Elkdom; I spent most of my life guiding and your comment on actually WORKING for thier money really shows how far your head is up your ass. You really have no idea and if you think I'm wrong. How about you put up a million and a half dollars and learn what work is.:evil:


I definately believe that G/O work hard, but from first hand experience I also know some of them "work" hard to screw it up for the everyday resident hunter and some even "work" hard at trying to disrupt certain resident's hunts.

[bridger]

So are you trying to tell me that it was only the lobbying of the BCWF that kept this general open season around? You don't think it had anything to do with the many years of quad restrictions etc. that had to have helped with game numbers? Cust curious.
BTW - could you elaborate on what you mean by " based on convenience". Not sure what you are getting at there.

i can guarantee you that the only reason we don't have the same restrictive leh in 7b they do in 7a is because of the bcwf lobby along with the goabc, but it was a presentation by the bcwf that turned the tide. the moe was set to put moose in 7b on leh no question about it. as for the convienience in 7a when that season was put in 30 yrs ago the moe said it was only for five years. for twenty years they didn't even increase the leh numbers even tho the moose population has rebounded. it is convienient in that the regional manager and bios don't have to do much to keep it going. this is a fact showing up at the provincial alllocation table and is one we are working on. not only that they gave the non residents 50% of the bull tags.

[7mag700]

Only old fellas can read watches that go.. tic tic tic tic tic;-)

lol - my 15 year old stepson would SO agree with you :-?

[quote=lunatic;476058]I seriously doubt I am wasting peoples time and energy on here Bridger. Anyone who has time to post on a website can't be TOO busy![quote]

Really? I find time spent here to be VERY constructive. As a relatively new hunter I'm a better hunter directly as a result of frequenting this site.

You, Mr. lunatic, are trolling with this post, and as a troll you're the one wasting my time don't you think?

7m7

[elkdom]

Elkdom; I spent most of my life guiding and your comment on actually WORKING for thier money really shows how far your head is up your ass. You really have no idea and if you think I'm wrong. How about you put up a million and a half dollars and learn what work is.:evil:

good luck willy442, the GO makes the big money, the Licensed Asst guides do the REAL work for next to nothing, part time work with shitty pay, as for your obscene comments .,,I have a pretty damm good IDEA of the crapp and corruption in the GO industry, I put up with it for 20 years of theBull$hit in NE BC and Central BC, maybe you would like me to post some names and pictures and we can take it from there???

willy!,,, YOU can BITE ME!

[lunatic]

lol - my 15 year old stepson would SO agree with you :-?

[quote=lunatic;476058]I seriously doubt I am wasting peoples time and energy on here Bridger. Anyone who has time to post on a website can't be TOO busy![quote]

Really? I find time spent here to be VERY constructive. As a relatively new hunter I'm a better hunter directly as a result of frequenting this site.

You, Mr. lunatic, are trolling with this post, and as a troll you're the one wasting my time don't you think?

7m7


Apparently you can only read the thread title and not what I posted later on explaining how I was looking for "real" reaction to a very "real" possibility. Now....quit wasting "my" time and let me know what YOU think of that possibility. I could care less what you think of me! Oh... I suppose I could say sorry for the 10 secs of your time I "wasted" for you to read the post.

[lunatic]

i can guarantee you that the only reason we don't have the same restrictive leh in 7b they do in 7a is because of the bcwf lobby along with the goabc, but it was a presentation by the bcwf that turned the tide. the moe was set to put moose in 7b on leh no question about it. as for the convienience in 7a when that season was put in 30 yrs ago the moe said it was only for five years. for twenty years they didn't even increase the leh numbers even tho the moose population has rebounded. it is convienient in that the regional manager and bios don't have to do much to keep it going. this is a fact showing up at the provincial alllocation table and is one we are working on. not only that they gave the non residents 50% of the bull tags.

Not doubting what you say Bridger, but what was so persuading that the BCWF said to sway their opinion in 7B? Why can't the same presentation sway their views in 7A. Seems logical to me that if 7A was also GOS that it would relieve some of the pressure on 7B.....even if it was only 1 week.

[bridger]

Not doubting what you say Bridger, but what was so persuading that the BCWF said to sway their opinion in 7B? Why can't the same presentation sway their views in 7A. Seems logical to me that if 7A was also GOS that it would relieve some of the pressure on 7B.....even if it was only 1 week.

it is a long story that unfolded over a two year period. the tremendous increase in new oil roads and cut lines in 7b was resulting in an usustainable bull harvest on open season. Moe heads in victoria plus the local co's wanted to extend the 7a leh plan to 7b. our local biologist and our local regional manager at the time were opposed to leh and wanted to implement the tri palm model which was developed in alaska. the local co's were adamant that leh would be easier to control and make their job easier. (they acutally said that at one of the meetings) They claimed that alaska had a big problem with illegal kills as guys couldn't identify tri palms and were shooting and leaving lots of bulls. the moe heads in victoria wanted moose on leh as it was easier to control the harvest and kept saying that their contacts in the alaska game department said alaska was going away from the tri palm and going to leh. we fought an uphill battle for two years to keep the season open. It came down to a final meeting in fort st john that was to be attended by moe guys from victoria and local fed, co's, and goabc reps. Victoria had made the decision to go leh and were coming to fort st john to break the news. unknown to them we had a surprise for them. one of our fed reps is extremely computer literate and this was in the early days of email. he guessed at the alaska game department's email address and sent them a long email detailing what was happening to our moose season in bc and asked about the alaska tri palm model and how well it worked. the biologist up there sent back a very detailed message supporting the tri palm and that he knew about the discussions in bc. he also said that the co's were deliberatly misleading us and so were the guys from victoria incidental kill of small bulls was not a problem in alaska and wouldn't be in bc either. alaska loved the tri palm and was going to extend it across the state and both the bc co's and moe guys from victoria knew it they just had their own agenda for leh. we with held the information until late in the meeting and when i read it verbatim and threatened to go public with it they backed off and went with the tri palm model acouple of weeks later. that is why we have an open season and not leh in 7b. a great deal of the credit also needs to go to Dr. John Elliot our regional bio at the time and Andy Ackerman the regional manager at the time they opposed leh. I was the email from alaska that turned the tide however. the complete details will some day make an interesting story about the role politics play in hunting seasons.

[lunatic]

it is a long story that unfolded over a two year period. the tremendous increase in new oil roads and cut lines in 7b was resulting in an usustainable bull harvest on open season. Moe heads in victoria plus the local co's wanted to extend the 7a leh plan to 7b. our local biologist and our local regional manager at the time were opposed to leh and wanted to implement the tri palm model which was developed in alaska. the local co's were adamant that leh would be easier to control and make their job easier. (they acutally said that at one of the meetings) They claimed that alaska had a big problem with illegal kills as guys couldn't identify tri palms and were shooting and leaving lots of bulls. the moe heads in victoria wanted moose on leh as it was easier to control the harvest and kept saying that their contacts in the alaska game department said alaska was going away from the tri palm and going to leh. we fought an uphill battle for two years to keep the season open. It came down to a final meeting in fort st john that was to be attended by moe guys from victoria and local fed, co's, and goabc reps. Victoria had made the decision to go leh and were coming to fort st john to break the news. unknown to them we had a surprise for them. one of our fed reps is extremely computer literate and this was in the early days of email. he guessed at the alaska game department's email address and sent them a long email detailing what was happening to our moose season in bc and asked about the alaska tri palm model and how well it worked. the biologist up there sent back a very detailed message supporting the tri palm and that he knew about the discussions in bc. he also said that the co's were deliberatly misleading us and so were the guys from victoria incidental kill of small bulls was not a problem in alaska and wouldn't be in bc either. alaska loved the tri palm and was going to extend it across the state and both the bc co's and moe guys from victoria knew it they just had their own agenda for leh. we with held the information until late in the meeting and when i read it verbatim and threatened to go public with it they backed off and went with the tri palm model acouple of weeks later. that is why we have an open season and not leh in 7b. a great deal of the credit also needs to go to Dr. John Elliot our regional bio at the time and Andy Ackerman the regional manager at the time they opposed leh. I was the email from alaska that turned the tide however. the complete details will some day make an interesting story about the role politics play in hunting seasons.


Now that is interesting indeed. GOS in 7B virtually saved purly by being lucky enough to guess an e-mail. Any idea then why they are so reluctant to try this in 7A? What has been the outcome of this in 7B as far as moose numbers are concerned? More importantly, what can we resident hunters do? Is more people joining the BCWF really going to help? Sounds as if the MOE does whatever they want anyway unless they are caught in an outright lie. And back to the whole point of my post-which was not meant to troll........there are a heck of a lot more oil and gas roads, pipeline roads, etc. built since then, and a heck of a lot more to come. Can we really hold onto this GOS?

[willy442]

good luck willy442, the GO makes the big money, the Licensed Asst guides do the REAL work for next to nothing, part time work with shitty pay, as for your obscene comments .,,I have a pretty damm good IDEA of the crapp and corruption in the GO industry, I put up with it for 20 years of theBull$hit in NE BC and Central BC, maybe you would like me to post some names and pictures and we can take it from there???

willy!,,, YOU can BITE ME!

Elkdom. If the G/O industry was as lucrative as you imply, we would see much more resident ownership in the industry. The fact of the matter is if one were to put forth borrowed money for one of these consessions. The chances of surviving would be very slim. It is much easier for a group of people to buy in, creating thier own little hunting club and sell off enough to cover operating costs, like you see many today. Who are you too judge assistant guiding. The same old story of supply and demand will set the wages. Most that take the job on are there because they enjoy the serinity of being out in the mountains, away from the hustle and bustle of urban life many cannotget away from. I think cowboy's on a cattle ranch fall under the same catagory. If you want to compare it to oil patch rates of course its low the industry don't blow up and kill people either. You put up with the bullshit you say? suppose a G/O put a gun to your head and said "Elkdumb, you are coming guiding" drug you out of the bar sobered you up and hauled you off. Post pictures if you wish, I can tell you that if you think the pitance that has so far been raised through the work of Bridger and the North Peace Rod and Gun Club is going to do much as far as changing the face of international hunting, you are as big a dreamer as Devilbear. The G/O industry will always be here as long as thier is hunting in B.C. and eventually the resident will join forces with it. The resident is a dying breed, tourism and international hunting is diversifying, and is increasing. They have the money to stay alive. BCWF fails to have the trust of it's members to a large enough, degree that they will freely forward money to the cause as seen by posts on this site. Most want more info before they send 5.00, some want an address, the
Federation can't come up with. Then people like Stone Sheep Steve and Gods greatest deer hunter Dana, by thier own admission can't afford to hunt and enhance wild life both, so SSS has volunteered his time to hanging signs in Sporting Goods stores.
So if we want to talk about Bull Shit join up with some of your buddies and look in a mirror. The only crap like always is the fact many people like yourself have very little knowledge and a big mouth that keeps the Bull Shit going. The same old circle has been happening since the mid 70's.

[lunatic]

Elkdom. If the G/O industry was as lucrative as you imply, we would see much more resident ownership in the industry. The fact of the matter is if one were to put forth borrowed money for one of these consessions. The chances of surviving would be very slim. It is much easier for a group of people to buy in, creating thier own little hunting club and sell off enough to cover operating costs, like you see many today. Who are you too judge assistant guiding. The same old story of supply and demand will set the wages. Most that take the job on are there because they enjoy the serinity of being out in the mountains, away from the hustle and bustle of urban life many cannotget away from. I think cowboy's on a cattle ranch fall under the same catagory. If you want to compare it to oil patch rates of course its low the industry don't blow up and kill people either. You put up with the bullshit you say? suppose a G/O put a gun to your head and said "Elkdumb, you are coming guiding" drug you out of the bar sobered you up and hauled you off. Post pictures if you wish, I can tell you that if you think the pitance that has so far been raised through the work of Bridger and the North Peace Rod and Gun Club is going to do much as far as changing the face of international hunting, you are as big a dreamer as Devilbear. The G/O industry will always be here as long as thier is hunting in B.C. and eventually the resident will join forces with it. The resident is a dying breed, tourism and international hunting is diversifying, and is increasing. They have the money to stay alive. BCWF fails to have the trust of it's members to a large enough, degree that they will freely forward money to the cause as seen by posts on this site. Most want more info before they send 5.00, some want an address, the
Federation can't come up with. Then people like Stone Sheep Steve and Gods greatest deer hunter Dana, by thier own admission can't afford to hunt and enhance wild life both, so SSS has volunteered his time to hanging signs in Sporting Goods stores.
So if we want to talk about Bull Shit join up with some of your buddies and look in a mirror. The only crap like always is the fact many people like yourself have very little knowledge and a big mouth that keeps the Bull Shit going. The same old circle has been happening since the mid 70's.


We don't kill too many......hope you appreciate the sacrifices we make for you to heat your home and power your vehicles:-?.

Wow......do you have ANY friends!:mrgreen:

[bridger]

the tri palm season has worked well in the peace and barring some unforseen happenstance the gos should survive indefinately. as far as what you can do. yes joining the bcwf is important also important is buying membership in the resident hunting and fishing preservation fund that is in the process of organization and should we on stream in the next couple of weeks. as far as 7a goes there needs to be a concentrated effort by all resident hunters to get that under control.

[sfire436]

Bridger for Premier!!!!!!!!!!!! Willy 442 for Alberta!!!!!!

[GoatGuy]

Elkdom. If the G/O industry was as lucrative as you imply, we would see much more resident ownership in the industry. The fact of the matter is if one were to put forth borrowed money for one of these consessions. The chances of surviving would be very slim. It is much easier for a group of people to buy in, creating thier own little hunting club and sell off enough to cover operating costs, like you see many today. Who are you too judge assistant guiding. The same old story of supply and demand will set the wages. Most that take the job on are there because they enjoy the serinity of being out in the mountains, away from the hustle and bustle of urban life many cannotget away from. I think cowboy's on a cattle ranch fall under the same catagory. If you want to compare it to oil patch rates of course its low the industry don't blow up and kill people either. You put up with the bullshit you say? suppose a G/O put a gun to your head and said "Elkdumb, you are coming guiding" drug you out of the bar sobered you up and hauled you off. Post pictures if you wish, I can tell you that if you think the pitance that has so far been raised through the work of Bridger and the North Peace Rod and Gun Club is going to do much as far as changing the face of international hunting, you are as big a dreamer as Devilbear. The G/O industry will always be here as long as thier is hunting in B.C. and eventually the resident will join forces with it. The resident is a dying breed, tourism and international hunting is diversifying, and is increasing. They have the money to stay alive. BCWF fails to have the trust of it's members to a large enough, degree that they will freely forward money to the cause as seen by posts on this site. Most want more info before they send 5.00, some want an address, the
Federation can't come up with. Then people like Stone Sheep Steve and Gods greatest deer hunter Dana, by thier own admission can't afford to hunt and enhance wild life both, so SSS has volunteered his time to hanging signs in Sporting Goods stores.
So if we want to talk about Bull Shit join up with some of your buddies and look in a mirror. The only crap like always is the fact many people like yourself have very little knowledge and a big mouth that keeps the Bull Shit going. The same old circle has been happening since the mid 70's.

The 70s? Right around the time of CI, plugs and quota to get the uncontrolled non-resident harvest down so that there were a couple of sheep left?

Right around sheep LEH around muncho because the outfitter was hammering the rams? (84%+)

Same time non-residents were harvesting 75% of the stones in 7B?

What was the wording? Oh yes, "the resident hunter must be the object of restrictive legislation from the government?"

Makes sense to me.

[elkdom]

Elkdom. If the G/O industry was as lucrative as you imply, we would see much more resident ownership in the industry. The fact of the matter is if one were to put forth borrowed money for one of these consessions. The chances of surviving would be very slim. It is much easier for a group of people to buy in, creating thier own little hunting club and sell off enough to cover operating costs, like you see many today. Who are you too judge assistant guiding. The same old story of supply and demand will set the wages. Most that take the job on are there because they enjoy the serinity of being out in the mountains, away from the hustle and bustle of urban life many cannotget away from. I think cowboy's on a cattle ranch fall under the same catagory. If you want to compare it to oil patch rates of course its low the industry don't blow up and kill people either. You put up with the bullshit you say? suppose a G/O put a gun to your head and said "Elkdumb, you are coming guiding" drug you out of the bar sobered you up and hauled you off. Post pictures if you wish, I can tell you that if you think the pitance that has so far been raised through the work of Bridger and the North Peace Rod and Gun Club is going to do much as far as changing the face of international hunting, you are as big a dreamer as Devilbear. The G/O industry will always be here as long as thier is hunting in B.C. and eventually the resident will join forces with it. The resident is a dying breed, tourism and international hunting is diversifying, and is increasing. They have the money to stay alive. BCWF fails to have the trust of it's members to a large enough, degree that they will freely forward money to the cause as seen by posts on this site. Most want more info before they send 5.00, some want an address, the
Federation can't come up with. Then people like Stone Sheep Steve and Gods greatest deer hunter Dana, by thier own admission can't afford to hunt and enhance wild life both, so SSS has volunteered his time to hanging signs in Sporting Goods stores.
So if we want to talk about Bull Shit join up with some of your buddies and look in a mirror. The only crap like always is the fact many people like yourself have very little knowledge and a big mouth that keeps the Bull Shit going. The same old circle has been happening since the mid 70's.

20 years of me watching, myself observing the "bullshit" as you call what anyone has negative to say about the GO system/cartel in British Columbia, anyone who has witnessed the constant drive by the GO's to more and more exclude resident hunters from the sport,GO's lobbying Gov't, anyone who has worked the in the GO industry that has the nerve to speak out is "full of shit" in your own words!, like I said in earlier posts, and if ever the day comes when I would have to get in bed again with a GO in order to retain hunting privileges in BC? then that would be the day I hang up my guns!
the myth that GO's have the resident hunters interests as a priority on their agenda, is just that a "MYTH" !, and other than a VERY small number of REPUTABLE Stand up Outfitters, the Majority are out to fill their pockets and MINE the Wildlife of BC,,,
keep talkin there "willy", with every sentence you show more of your TRUE colors, and I dont think you will see a rally of admirers as your personal insults and posts mount in numbers,,,

if you want to promote the GO's, do it in the States or Europe,

your wasting your time Beating on your Drum , hoping to make your point with me ,,,

[willy442]

We don't kill too many......hope you appreciate the sacrifices we make for you to heat your home and power your vehicles:-?.

Wow......do you have ANY friends!:mrgreen:

Don't worry I make just as many sacrifices as you do to supply gas for heat or fuel.
As`far as friends probably not many on here and don't really need them. I have a large enough Christmas card list with out you. In saying that though remember there are more hunters in B.C. than you see on this site. Most are real hunters interested in whats going on rather than stirring up shit on items they have no idea, like some on here. The problem is we have things like Bridger refered to today on the Moose LEH that never get out to the public. Rather than the good from the few combined efforts of the GOABC and the BCWF, there are those that would rather keep G/O bashing instead of coming forth with the truth. The average resident buys up the bullshit adds his own ideas and starts yapping. Tell me whats gained, when we have the anti's and things like gun registries etc., affecting our future freedom with regard to hunting. Hunters are hunters and should be together united to fight for the future, if we keep defining boundaries everyone will lose in the end.

[lunatic]

Don't worry I make just as many sacrifices as you do to supply gas for heat or fuel.
As`far as friends probably not many on here and don't really need them. I have a large enough Christmas card list with out you. In saying that though remember there are more hunters in B.C. than you see on this site. Most are real hunters interested in whats going on rather than stirring up shit on items they have no idea, like some on here. The problem is we have things like Bridger refered to today on the Moose LEH that never get out to the public. Rather than the good from the few combined efforts of the GOABC and the BCWF, there are those that would rather keep G/O bashing instead of coming forth with the truth. The average resident buys up the bullshit adds his own ideas and starts yapping. Tell me whats gained, when we have the anti's and things like gun registries etc., affecting our future freedom with regard to hunting. Hunters are hunters and should be together united to fight for the future, if we keep defining boundaries everyone will lose in the end.


That's the smartest thing i've heard you say yet! I'll even agree with that!

[willy442]

20 years of me watching, myself observing the "bullshit" as you call what anyone has negative to say about the GO system/cartel in British Columbia, anyone who has witnessed the constant drive by the GO's to more and more exclude resident hunters from the sport,GO's lobbying Gov't, anyone who has worked the in the GO industry that has the nerve to speak out is "full of shit" in your own words!, like I said in earlier posts, and if ever the day comes when I would have to get in bed again with a GO in order to retain hunting privileges in BC? then that would be the day I hang up my guns!
the myth that GO's have the resident hunters interests as a priority on their agenda, is just that a "MYTH" !, and other than a VERY small number of REPUTABLE Stand up Outfitters, the Majority are out to fill their pockets and MINE the Wildlife of BC,,,
keep talkin there "willy", with every sentence you show more of your TRUE colors, and I dont think you will see a rally of admirers as your personal insults and posts mount in numbers,,,

if you want to promote the GO's, do it in the States or Europe,

your wasting your time Beating on your Drum , hoping to make your point with me ,,,

What you fail to understand is the average G/O is actually interested in the future of hunting. Many on the other hand are only interested in thier self with very little or no long range planning. The problem is those who have an interest in maintaining as the guides say "quality back country and hunting" fails to provide a special resident plan, too bad get the equipment and you too can travel and hunt where ever a G/O can. Bridger and many others have done just that. The wildlife of B.C. is a renewable resource and should be mined as you say so those in the Province who have as much ownership as anyone on this site can also reap some sort of benifit from the resource, no different than mining or logging.

[Gunner]

Any dialogue between the BCWF and the GOABC is to me a total waste of time.They have demonstrated the fact that they have no use for Resident hunters and in some cases have gone to great lengths to either exclude Residents or to influence the MOE to diminish Resident harvest numbers to their own benefit.They are the main reason we are faced with LEH in areas where it is not warranted by conservation concerns.I suggest that rather than trying to make common ground with a group that considers BCs wildlife to be their property to do with as they wish,the BCWF should be more confrontational in their dealings with the GOABC.The G/Os are well known for saying one thing while doing another,and they will most certainly not support any initiatives that might benefit Resident hunters,unless they feel there is money in it for them.The Fed may as well quit pussy footing around and get ready for a fight..in public. Gunner

[willy442]

The 70s? Right around the time of CI, plugs and quota to get the uncontrolled non-resident harvest down so that there were a couple of sheep left?

Right around sheep LEH around muncho because the outfitter was hammering the rams? (84%+)

Same time non-residents were harvesting 75% of the stones in 7B?

What was the wording? Oh yes, "the resident hunter must be the object of restrictive legislation from the government?"

Makes sense to me.

Stats Man. Nice to see you came out of your shell. Let me clear up and add the rest to your quote "restrictive legistlation from government to prevent the localized over harvest in some area's". Damn I was a good Sheep Guide (84%+). I like that.

No different than the roads in the EK. Give open access to the res and GOS you would have a scene, much like giving whisky and guns to the Fort Ware Band. Stand back and watch the wreck.:razz:

[willy442]

Any dialogue between the BCWF and the GOABC is to me a total waste of time.They have demonstrated the fact that they have no use for Resident hunters and in some cases have gone to great lengths to either exclude Residents or to influence the MOE to diminish Resident harvest numbers to their own benefit.They are the main reason we are faced with LEH in areas where it is not warranted by conservation concerns.I suggest that rather than trying to make common ground with a group that considers BCs wildlife to be their property to do with as they wish,the BCWF should be more confrontational in their dealings with the GOABC.The G/Os are well known for saying one thing while doing another,and they will most certainly not support any initiatives that might benefit Resident hunters,unless they feel there is money in it for them.The Fed may as well quit pussy footing around and get ready for a fight..in public. Gunner

I'm glad we have some cooler heads out there taking care of your hunting opportunities. Sit back and enjoy thier work, while you bitch over your camp fire this fall.

[f350ps]

Any dialogue between the BCWF and the GOABC is to me a total waste of time.They have demonstrated the fact that they have no use for Resident hunters and in some cases have gone to great lengths to either exclude Residents or to influence the MOE to diminish Resident harvest numbers to their own benefit.They are the main reason we are faced with LEH in areas where it is not warranted by conservation concerns.I suggest that rather than trying to make common ground with a group that considers BCs wildlife to be their property to do with as they wish,the BCWF should be more confrontational in their dealings with the GOABC.The G/Os are well known for saying one thing while doing another,and they will most certainly not support any initiatives that might benefit Resident hunters,unless they feel there is money in it for them.The Fed may as well quit pussy footing around and get ready for a fight..in public. Gunner
I couldn't agree more! K

[willy442]

The 70s? Right around the time of CI, plugs and quota to get the uncontrolled non-resident harvest down so that there were a couple of sheep left?

Right around sheep LEH around muncho because the outfitter was hammering the rams? (84%+)

Same time non-residents were harvesting 75% of the stones in 7B?

What was the wording? Oh yes, "the resident hunter must be the object of restrictive legislation from the government?"

Makes sense to me.

Smart thinking on the part of a few G/O's to bring in LEH while they still had the chance to keep a decent number of permits. That's just good business and smart thinking by some of the old boy's. Let me remind you I don't know of any G/O that wants to abolish resident hunting. I know many that will not give up the fight to prevent the resident from dictating the criteria we hunt by and for good reason in my opinion.

[sfire436]

Smart thinking on the part of a few G/O's to bring in LEH while they still had the chance to keep a decent number of permits. That's just good business and smart thinking by some of the old boy's. Let me remind you I don't know of any G/O that wants to abolish resident hunting. I know many that will not give up the fight to prevent the resident from dictating the criteria we hunt by and for good reason in my opinion.


It is bitter sweet in regard to the relation between resident and GO's. I believe without the GO making money we may be hard pressed to keep hunting alive...HOWEVER I see NO reason to increase the percentage of leh tags given to the GO's Actually I think it should be decreased quite a bit.

[Fisher-Dude]

HOWEVER I see NO reason to increase the percentage of leh tags given to the GO's Actually I think it should be decreased quite a bit.

Makes one wonder why the GOs get about 20 - 25% of allocated harvest for 6% or so of the people who hunt in BC. Even with those numbers, the GOs are appealing their allocation levels claiming hardship, and trying to get government to drop plans to recruit resident hunters.

Ask yourself what their agenda is before you think of an "alliance".

[Gunner]

I'm glad we have some cooler heads out there taking care of your hunting opportunities. Sit back and enjoy thier work, while you bitch over your camp fire this fall.Our hunting opportunities will be for what ever the GOs don't want if you have your way.The GOs remind me of the old loggers I used to work with,these are "our trees",and "if we could only get rid of every body else in the woods we could highgrade them that much faster".Every allocation the GOs can weasel away from Residents is money in their pockets and it's not going to stop.They are a useful tool to the MOE biologists,who are getting away from managing for Resident hunters as well.The GOs are the enemy of ALL Resident hunters and it's time to draw the line in the sand.Their concern for wildlife populations is in many cases self serving,and their only concern with Resident Hunters is what allocations they can get from us or how they can influence seasons to their benefit.The fewer there are of us in the woods the more cash for them. Gunner

[willy442]

It is bitter sweet in regard to the relation between resident and GO's. I believe without the GO making money we may be hard pressed to keep hunting alive...HOWEVER I see NO reason to increase the percentage of leh tags given to the GO's Actually I think it should be decreased quite a bit.

I don't know why you think, I believe there should be an increase. I think the harvest should dictate the quota. If a G/O can achieve exceptionally high standards of trophies, which is what he hunts. His harvest numbers or quota should be looked at. If the caliber of trophy is some what average or below, he should than remain the same or be cut. The resident harvest of sheep should not affect the G/O quota, this alone would do alot to level the playing field, let the guide succeed on his own. It's not rocket science to watch and see what level of trophy is being killed, in what area, residents thrive on this information and are constantly seeking it.
Really when it is looked at and thought about the number of LEH tags being argued over is very small in the big scheme of things but works very well to fuel the fire of dissention. If an area is producing extremely well people will get there. If quaility of hunt is the criteria the G/O's want to enhance and support so be it, the average resident meat hunter has no interest in getting to alot of these area's anyway. It's trime government started managing animals not people and unfortunately until this happens we will see them continue taking the easy way out and LEH.

[willy442]

Our hunting opportunities will be for what ever the GOs don't want if you have your way.The GOs remind me of the old loggers I used to work with,these are "our trees",and "if we could only get rid of every body else in the woods we could highgrade them that much faster".Every allocation the GOs can weasel away from Residents is money in their pockets and it's not going to stop.They are a useful tool to the MOE biologists,who are getting away from managing for Resident hunters as well.The GOs are the enemy of ALL Resident hunters and it's time to draw the line in the sand.Their concern for wildlife populations is in many cases self serving,and their only concern with Resident Hunters is what allocations they can get from us or how they can influence seasons to their benefit.The fewer there are of us in the woods the more cash for them. Gunner

Sorry Gunner but you are so far out in left field, it's not worth responding.

[willy442]

Makes one wonder why the GOs get about 20 - 25% of allocated harvest for 6% or so of the people who hunt in BC. Even with those numbers, the GOs are appealing their allocation levels claiming hardship, and trying to get government to drop plans to recruit resident hunters.

Ask yourself what their agenda is before you think of an "alliance".

FD; I agree totally with the statement made by the GOABC of being against hunter recruitment at the expense of conservation. Lets face it the bio's really don't have a strong track record over the years and we have been left trying to pick up after bad decisions. What makes you think the new batch out there is any better than the last? I'm really glad to see that you and 30 to 40 thousand others are standing on the steps of the legislature keeping our hunting activities alive in a world of 100's of thousand anti's and nonhunters not to mention thier endless resources. Good Luck.:smile:

[Timbow]

I'm really glad to see that you and 30 to 40 thousand others are standing on the steps of the legislature keeping our hunting activities alive in a world of 100's of thousand anti's and nonhunters not to mention thier endless resources. Good Luck.:smile:

What's your contribution to the future of hunting?

[Devilbear]

Willy, are you picking on me, again? You just make me HOWL with laughter and guys like you and your buds in the G/O industry are "history", the "bad old days" and soon will be gone like a beer fart in a theater.

The general public here in BC WILL soon DEMAND and GET an end to GO "concessions" and foreign trophy collecting....and "by, baby, by" will go Willy, ill-mannered, ignorant mouth and all!

See Ya, dork!!!

[willy442]

What's your contribution to the future of hunting?

Many donated sheep and mixed bag hunts over the years that were auctioned off at conventions in the USA and Canada. Thousands of dollars that came back to help fund many wildlife enhancement projects from Sheep wtering holes, game transplants and many other projects in both countries. In years past, habitat burns, donated air time in our aircraft, donated pilot time. Hours of meetings and travel out of our pockets to attend.

May I ask whats yours?

[willy442]

Willy, are you picking on me, again? You just make me HOWL with laughter and guys like you and your buds in the G/O industry are "history", the "bad old days" and soon will be gone like a beer fart in a theater.

The general public here in BC WILL soon DEMAND and GET an end to GO "concessions" and foreign trophy collecting....and "by, baby, by" will go Willy, ill-mannered, ignorant mouth and all!

See Ya, dork!!!

Not picking on you Kut's. Just don't agree with your leftist attitude and the believe that you can actually stop the world of hunting international big game. Silly Silly man.

[Gunner]

Sorry Gunner but you are so far out in left field, it's not worth responding.I didn't expect a response nor did I want one.Like I said dialogue with Go's is a waste of time.I have some numbers I'll be putting in front of my MLA next Tuesday.We'll see what he has to say.If I get an unsatisfactory response,maybe I'll have to take it up with Carol James! :biggrin: Gunner

[willy442]

I didn't expect a response nor did I want one.Like I said dialogue with Go's is a waste of time.I have some numbers I'll be putting in front of my MLA next Tuesday.We'll see what he has to say.If I get an unsatisfactory response,maybe I'll have to take it up with Carol James! :biggrin: Gunner

GOOD LUCK in getting through to either.

[Gunner]

Geez,you're pretty arrogant aren't you!I've got nothing better to do until LEH comes out,and my flyin hunt is already booked(hope it's in your territory,maybe you could give me some hints!)I don't mind spending some time asking some questions. Gunner

[bigwhiteys]

What's your contribution to the future of hunting?

ME... lol... And I've got 3 boys as well that will be getting into hunting when they are old enough.


my flyin hunt is already booked(hope it's in your territory,maybe you could give me some hints!)I don't mind spending some time asking some questions.

I hope he's a better pilot then this guy!

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/sheepics/crash1.jpg

Carl

[Gunner]

:mrgreen: Seen a couple of those,haven't been in one yet!The worst I've had is a seagull hittin' the windshield in front of me. Gunner

[GoatGuy]

Smart thinking on the part of a few G/O's to bring in LEH while they still had the chance to keep a decent number of permits. That's just good business and smart thinking by some of the old boy's.

Pretty typical and to think before you said it was for messy camps and resident over-harvest. Funny, it turns out it was the outfitters who were killing off sheep in the Peace.


Let me remind you I don't know of any G/O that wants to abolish resident hunting. I know many that will not give up the fight to prevent the resident from dictating the criteria we hunt by and for good reason in my opinion.

I'm sure nobody wants to see resident hunting end; after all that's what the public supports and it's what is vital to the future of commercial hunting in BC.

However, the number of hunters that some GOs want to see is pretty small - probably count 'em on both hands.

[willy442]

Pretty typical and to think before you said it was for messy camps and resident over-harvest. Funny, it turns out it was the outfitters who were killing off sheep in the Peace.



I'm sure nobody wants to see resident hunting end; after all that's what the public supports and it's what is vital to the future of commercial hunting in BC.

However, the number of hunters that some GOs want to see is pretty small - probably count 'em on both hands.


Twisted the old messy camp thing again! You remind me of my exwife she grasped at straws and never forgot just like you.

Let me remind you Commercial Hunting is the way every country in the world has gone, when opportunity diminished. You are fighting a loosing battle and will probably roll over in your grave when it happens, but the freedom you know now will diminish. Money will be the winner.

[daycort]

Thousands of dollars that came back to help fund many wildlife enhancement projects from Sheep wtering holes, game transplants and many other projects in both countries. In years past, habitat burns, donated air time in our aircraft, donated pilot time.


I was just wondering how much of this wildlife enhancement was done around the Gundahoo Region??

I believe th GOABC is starting to sweat a little now that he FED finally came up with a way to lobby beside them in Victoria. I personally know of some good ol local boys in the peace that are willing to dig deep in there already deep pockets to contribute to the BC Resident Hunting and Fishing Preservation Fund. It should get really interesting coming months.

[willy442]

I was just wondering how much of this wildlife enhancement was done around the Gundahoo Region??

I believe th GOABC is starting to sweat a little now that he FED finally came up with a way to lobby beside them in Victoria. I personally know of some good ol local boys in the peace that are willing to dig deep in there already deep pockets to contribute to the BC Resident Hunting and Fishing Preservation Fund. It should get really interesting coming months.

To answer your first question. NONE. If we required burns etc,. we took it on ourselves, from our own pockets.

I don't think the GOABC will loose 1 minutes sleep over that fund. Don't get me wrong, I'm a supporter of the fund and hope it will be used wisely for game management and hunter recruitment as it was originally intended and not for G/O bashing.

[lunatic]

All I know is we as resident hunters need to get our shit together and start standing up and speaking....no hollering.....for our right to harvest game in this province. Scares the crap out of me to think that this privelege we have could be lost to our children or grandchildren. If we lose this right to nothing but the greed of a select few, then we will have nobody to blame but ourselves...IF we LET it happen! We need to support whatever organizations are out there that will fight for us!

[GoatGuy]

To answer your first question. NONE. If we required burns etc,. we took it on ourselves, from our own pockets.


Lets not kid ourselves - that was all part of a self-serving program, and no residents didn't really benefit from it until quota was introduced. Yes outfitters did create a lot of habitat and help out with predator control but they also shot the shit out of the sheep so much so that quota had to be introduced.

[bridger]

I agree with willie the goabc won't change its attitude toward resident hunters untl we hit them with a 2x4. that 2x4 needs to be a concerted effort talking to politicians the time with dealing with the moe and goabc is over

[ROEBUCK]

the bcwf are supposed to be our political voice , its time that members complained to the bcwf that were not happy with their effort, if the bcwf shout a little louder to the politicians maybe more hunters will rejoin the bcwf







I agree with willie the goabc won't change its attitude toward resident hunters untl we hit them with a 2x4. that 2x4 needs to be a concerted effort talking to politicians the time with dealing with the moe and goabc is over

[bigwhiteys]

the bcwf are supposed to be our political voice , its time that members complained to the bcwf that were not happy with their effort, if the bcwf shout a little louder to the politicians maybe more hunters will rejoin the bcwf

Does anyone know what kind of budget the BCWF has to play with? You know... To fight for our hunting rights...?

I was a member in the past... Their lack of action on the Bear Hunting issue has me a little turned off of supporting them right now.

BCWF needs to get serious about their resident hunter fund... As in Millions$$$ serious.

Carl

[willy442]

Lets not kid ourselves - that was all part of a self-serving program, and no residents didn't really benefit from it until quota was introduced. Yes outfitters did create a lot of habitat and help out with predator control but they also shot the shit out of the sheep so much so that quota had to be introduced.

The program was not self serving and happened to give alot of help and funding to project, until the resident started hollering that the ministry was in bed with the G/O. Then applications for project funding slowed to prevent the issue. Truth be known alot more could have come out of the old program to the benefit of all BC hunters.

I don't argue for a minute that back in the day we took alot sheep. Let me remind you, for the most part they were all mature 8+ year old rams or older (TROPHY RAMS) and the numbers never really hurt the populations. The stoppage of predator control and harvest of young rams on the other hand are major contributing factors along with the Elk in some areas.

You continue to cry in the same age old manner that has gone on and on. When is the resident going to actually do some good for hunting in the Province instead of worry about what area he can shoot the shit out of next? The percentage numbers you keep posting and have people fighting over are very small in overall harvest numbers. The hunters in this Province have at present the most leisure bag limits and access to huntable land that is second to no where else in the world today. Why not fight to keep and maintain that instead of showing all the dissention among hunting groups, allowing the anti's to flourish.

Guess that's why you are flying parcels with a business degree.

[bridger]

To answer your first question. NONE. If we required burns etc,. we took it on ourselves, from our own pockets.

I don't think the GOABC will loose 1 minutes sleep over that fund. Don't get me wrong, I'm a supporter of the fund and hope it will be used wisely for game management and hunter recruitment as it was originally intended and not for G/O bashing.

for those of us who will support the fun it is important to understand the purpose of the fund its #1 purpose is to stand up for rights of priority for resident hunters and fisherman and will go wherever necessary to acheive that. just remember it was the goabc that told the government last february that the goabc would not support any government initiative that would increase the number of resident hunters is the province. completely different from the old days when both the fed and goabc argued at the negotiating table all day then went for a beer and dinner together.

[sfire436]

I don't know why you think, I believe there should be an increase. I think the harvest should dictate the quota. If a G/O can achieve exceptionally high standards of trophies, which is what he hunts. His harvest numbers or quota should be looked at. If the caliber of trophy is some what average or below, he should than remain the same or be cut. The resident harvest of sheep should not affect the G/O quota, this alone would do alot to level the playing field, let the guide succeed on his own. It's not rocket science to watch and see what level of trophy is being killed, in what area, residents thrive on this information and are constantly seeking it.
Really when it is looked at and thought about the number of LEH tags being argued over is very small in the big scheme of things but works very well to fuel the fire of dissention. If an area is producing extremely well people will get there. If quaility of hunt is the criteria the G/O's want to enhance and support so be it, the average resident meat hunter has no interest in getting to alot of these area's anyway. It's trime government started managing animals not people and unfortunately until this happens we will see them continue taking the easy way out and LEH.


Willy Willy Willy, I do not know you therefore I am not gonna sit here and put you down as a hunter like many have on here. I do not know your morals as a GO or whatever you do in that capacity. I only hope you perform your services with a high moral standard and stay true to our provinces wildlife laws. HOWEVER I do not feel there is one resident hunter that will agree with this statement you just wrote. How do you justify NON RESIDENTS getting so many tags by throwing money at you? Where do you live? How would you feel if the government blocked off 20 to 30 percent of the area you lived in for "non residents" to buy buy because it was a great place to live while you had to only hope of buying a place there?

I understand that our beef should be with the government that again is failing us by giving the "handjob" to your industry, and I suppose I can not fault you for lobbying as you do for your own intrests in the GO buisness, because is that not what big buisness is all about? Not giving a shit about the regular Blue collar types?

If it were up to me then the NON redidents would have to put in for LEH just as everyone else does and then once being drawn can shop around for their guide. How is that unfair? Levels the playing field IMO.

How do you think it makes us feel when our opportunities are being taken away piece by peice because you as a member of the GO's are taking more and more? seriously, take a second and think about it?

Perhaps you are a working guide and not the owner of the buisness, perhaps you are the guy working his ass off giving these people the experience of a lifetime. If so I would stop and think who you are protecting, the guy that is taking all their money and your effort to the bank?

[bigwhiteys]

SFire, Willy hasn't guided or been involved with the GO's since the early 90's when they sold their outfit.

Carl

[willy442]

for those of us who will support the fun it is important to understand the purpose of the fund its #1 purpose is to stand up for rights of priority for resident hunters and fisherman and will go wherever necessary to acheive that. just remember it was the goabc that told the government last february that the goabc would not support any government initiative that would increase the number of resident hunters is the province. completely different from the old days when both the fed and goabc argued at the negotiating table all day then went for a beer and dinner together.

Everyone keeps posting the statement by the GOABC in error. The actual statement was they would not support an increase in resident hunters AT THE EXPENSE OF WILDLIFE populations. No where did they say they were against residents or resident opportunity. The concern is clearly wildlife not the resident hunter.

[sfire436]

Thanks Carl. Then I am quite suprised at his stance on this issue. He seems to be a man standing on his own.

[willy442]

Thanks Carl. Then I am quite suprised at his stance on this issue. He seems to be a man standing on his own.

sfire; No don't think for an instance that I stand alone. On this site maybe it's the case. However there are many others out there that see it the same way I do. Fighting, bashing and failing to work with any group that jointly supports hunting in todays world is a case of shooting yourself in the foot. I'm not in support of many G/O's today, however they are hunters, thier clients are hunters and both groups have money. The G/O's have full time employee's working on thier behalf lobbying government. Truth be known they have nothing against resident hunting. Yes they may have views that differ from many residents and common ground must be found. The point is unless everyone's on the same side when crunch time arrives with the anti's, my GRAND CHILDREN won't be hunting.

[sfire436]

sfire; No don't think for an instance that I stand alone. On this site maybe it's the case. However there are many others out there that see it the same way I do. Fighting, bashing and failing to work with any group that jointly supports hunting in todays world is a case of shooting yourself in the foot. I'm not in support of many G/O's today, however they are hunters, thier clients are hunters and both groups have money. The G/O's have full time employee's working on thier behalf lobbying government. Truth be known they have nothing against resident hunting. Yes they may have views that differ from many residents and common ground must be found. The point is unless everyone's on the same side when crunch time arrives with the anti's, my GRAND CHILDREN won't be hunting.

I can agree with you on many things you say. I agree with a need for one united stance to fight the antis. However I am sure that these Lobbyists are working with the government for their own benifit and not for hunters alone. I can say this because the are constantly asking for a larger share of the LEH and trying to keep the recruitment down of RH. This I am sure you will disagree with and there is no sense beating this argument to a pulp. Now you say you want your Grandchildren to be able to hunt? Well IMO the way it is going with regards to the relationship between tht GO and RH then unless your grandkids want to hunt the better be quite weathy to afford the Guiding fees as hunting will be a Rich mans game leaving only the poor scraps for the working man.


I am not involved heavily in the politics of hunting/GO and can only make asumptions on what I see and read, and again I can see no reason why the GO's need an even bigger share of the LEH.

Nick

[Downwind]

Are any of these documents readily available to the general public? I would like to have a read over of these if they are. I like being able to draw my own conclusions from things.

[GoatGuy]

Everyone keeps posting the statement by the GOABC in error. The actual statement was they would not support an increase in resident hunters AT THE EXPENSE OF WILDLIFE populations. No where did they say they were against residents or resident opportunity. The concern is clearly wildlife not the resident hunter.

The statement, from what I've read on here, is that it's at the expense of trophy management NOT of CONSERVATION or WILDLIFE POPULATIONS. There is no error in that statement.

Basically says, we don't want to see more residents out hunting if it's going to hurt the current trophy management that we have across BC.

The concern is not for wildlife - it's for trophies and keeping resident hunters out of the bush - (the 'quality' experience).

[GoatGuy]

The program was not self serving and happened to give alot of help and funding to project, until the resident started hollering that the ministry was in bed with the G/O. Then applications for project funding slowed to prevent the issue. Truth be known alot more could have come out of the old program to the benefit of all BC hunters.

I don't argue for a minute that back in the day we took alot sheep. Let me remind you, for the most part they were all mature 8+ year old rams or older (TROPHY RAMS) and the numbers never really hurt the populations. The stoppage of predator control and harvest of young rams on the other hand are major contributing factors along with the Elk in some areas.

You continue to cry in the same age old manner that has gone on and on. When is the resident going to actually do some good for hunting in the Province instead of worry about what area he can shoot the shit out of next? The percentage numbers you keep posting and have people fighting over are very small in overall harvest numbers. The hunters in this Province have at present the most leisure bag limits and access to huntable land that is second to no where else in the world today. Why not fight to keep and maintain that instead of showing all the dissention among hunting groups, allowing the anti's to flourish.

Guess that's why you are flying parcels with a business degree.

They were not 'trophy' 8+ rams for the most part- if they were there would have been no need for quotas, not to mention plugs. I suppose it's merely coincidence that before plugs there were several sheep being CI'd with very similar horns?:roll:

There were age problems - outfitters shooting young sheep and shooting too many. Residents weren't even shooting sheep back then - hell Cooke shot more sheep in his area than residents took across all of the peace.

There's a huge difference between harvesting 15% of the sheep and the current 60%+ of the sheep in 7B. Even in what you consider the 'hayday', while outfitters were shooting the countryside up residents were harvesting 40-50 rams; today, what you would call doomsday, residents are harvesting ~120, and the allocation policy hasn't even kicked in yet. In 2012 that'll go up again a pile - probably end up somewhere around 80% for residents, possibly higher. And don't blather on about the age bs - there's a couple folks who aren't filling their quota and are barely batting 50% on 8+ rams.

That's how far it's come since the 70s.

[bridger]

Everyone keeps posting the statement by the GOABC in error. The actual statement was they would not support an increase in resident hunters AT THE EXPENSE OF WILDLIFE populations. No where did they say they were against residents or resident opportunity. The concern is clearly wildlife not the resident hunter.

Bill
at the expense of wildlife? even as old as i am i can see through that bullshit!! resident hunting opportunites are so controlled you could have 500,000 resident hunters and wildlife populations would not be effected. like it or not the goabc has been on a campaign over the last few years to reduce general open seasons for residents and increase quota's for non residents and they have been sucessful. the goabcc also agreed to a new allocation policy and have now withdrawn from it because they didn't get what they wanted. I agree the fed and the goabc should work together on a lot of issues, but it is difficult to deal with internatiional hunting companies with no real interest in bc

[willy442]

They were not 'trophy' 8+ rams for the most part- if they were there would have been no need for quotas, not to mention plugs. I suppose it's merely coincidence that before plugs there were several sheep being CI'd with very similar horns?:roll:

There were age problems - outfitters shooting young sheep and shooting too many. Residents weren't even shooting sheep back then - hell Cooke shot more sheep in his area than residents took across all of the peace.

There's a huge difference between harvesting 15% of the sheep and the current 60%+ of the sheep in 7B. Even in what you consider the 'hayday', while outfitters were shooting the countryside up residents were harvesting 40-50 rams; today, what you would call doomsday, residents are harvesting ~120, and the allocation policy hasn't even kicked in yet. In 2012 that'll go up again a pile - probably end up somewhere around 80% for residents, possibly higher. And don't blather on about the age bs - there's a couple folks who aren't filling their quota and are barely batting 50% on 8+ rams.

That's how far it's come since the 70s.

Now your true colors and lack of knowing what took place while you were still a swimmer comes out again. Please tell us who brought in plugs and why. Then when you can answer that please come up with who pushed for quota's and why. Then please put your data in here on how Cooke took more sheep than the resident. I also like your reference to an operation that caused the guiding industry more grief than any before or since, hence why the area was taken away. Your data and what you are insinuating in the above post is total BULLSHIT. I think the caliber of rams posted on this site by my son, all of which were guided for by myself pretty much shows the standards that were expected by our clients. For one thing the amount of resident sheep hunting back in those days was minimal, so your reference to the numbers is the same old twisted crap you keep posting. The allocation policy will do nothing to increase resident harvest, you can't begin to suceed on taking what you have now. Like I said in another post if an operation selling tropy hunts, fails to maintain trophy animals then cut the tags. Last but not least when did sheep become the choice of meat hunters? Keep up the good work of stirring crap with all your imagined bullshit one day it will come back to haunt you.

[elkdom]

Bill
at the expense of wildlife? even as old as i am i can see through that bullshit!! resident hunting opportunites are so controlled you could have 500,000 resident hunters and wildlife populations would not be effected. like it or not the goabc has been on a campaign over the last few years to reduce general open seasons for residents and increase quota's for non residents and they have been sucessful. the goabcc also agreed to a new allocation policy and have now withdrawn from it because they didn't get what they wanted. I agree the fed and the goabc should work together on a lot of issues, but it is difficult to deal with internatiional hunting companies with no real interest in bc

X2 ! I couldn't have said it any better!, :!:

[willy442]

Bill
at the expense of wildlife? even as old as i am i can see through that bullshit!! resident hunting opportunites are so controlled you could have 500,000 resident hunters and wildlife populations would not be effected. like it or not the goabc has been on a campaign over the last few years to reduce general open seasons for residents and increase quota's for non residents and they have been sucessful. the goabcc also agreed to a new allocation policy and have now withdrawn from it because they didn't get what they wanted. I agree the fed and the goabc should work together on a lot of issues, but it is difficult to deal with internatiional hunting companies with no real interest in bc

I don't disagree with the hardships of dealing with todays outfits and the GOABC. I have stated on here many times, I have very little use for the G/O industry today, this is due to many reasons, some not even mentioned on here. However there are alot of misconceptions and so called facts being presented here that are not all truths. The resident is lumping the industry together as one which is BS. You know yourself the original G/O's did alot for hunting and opening areas up, which allowed access for people such as yourself. You would have had hell packing into the areas you hunted, had a G/O not cut the trail for you. The statements I see on here would be equal to me saying all residents shoot up highway signs and wreck cabins. We all know thats not the case and it was the same with the G/O's.

I think the wrong approach is being taken with these issue's and some serious forward thinking on hunting in general should be looked at. The reason I say this is the resident needs the G/O's and the G/O's need the resident to survive. The way things are being dealt with both are at odds like always and nothing is being accomplished other than promoting a sour image to hunting in B.C. at the expense of what "Greed and a handful of tags".

[bridger]

i agree with the old time outfitters doing a lot of good things for wildlife that benefitted residents to bad the old days are gone. as for the trails you guys did a good job of hiding most of them but were nice when we fnally found them. as for who pushed the quota's that initiative came directly from the local wiildlife branch.

[willy442]

i agree with the old time outfitters doing a lot of good things for wildlife that benefitted residents to bad the old days are gone. as for the trails you guys did a good job of hiding most of them but were nice when we fnally found them. as for who pushed the quota's that initiative came directly from the local wiildlife branch.

Let me correct you on the Quota issue. Prior to developement of the quota system the G/O had nothing tied to the Guide Outfitter Certificate that had monetary value. When the talks started on possible LEH for sheep, my father was on the executive of the guides association and the Alberta system at the time was looked at by the G/O's and partially fought for and adopted. This would accomplish two things.

1. It would give the G/O a solid base of tags that a value could be put on and possibly even make the Certificate worth something. Allowing guy's like my father, Don Peck, Gary Powell, Gary Vince, and all the rest to have something of value after many years of hard work. Work they had undertaken on a huge risk and could have been lost by the stroke of a pen.

2. Through research by the G/O's on LEH and Quota's it was also clear that a quota system would allow the Guide to continue with prebooking hunters, through the winter months. Also clear was the fact that supply and demand would set future nonresident prices and accomplish what the resident of the day wanted by restricting guide harvest. It was a major issue in some of the Western States where nonresidents were having to draw tags, then look for guides and not working well. Therefore the Quota system over LEH was backed by both G/O's and the Ministry for nonresidents.

The next step taken by the G/O's as you know was the case of Tenure on the licence. Which if you remember the quota was at one time tied to. Once they had both tied to the licence the value of guide areas went up. The risk in the eye's of lenders was still huge, due to the quota's being subject to reduction, through both resident and nonresident harvest. This risk prevented many eligible experianced people from aquiring Guide areas and somewhat created the situation of nonresident ownership we see today.

[GoatGuy]

Now your true colors and lack of knowing what took place while you were still a swimmer comes out again. Please tell us who brought in plugs and why. Then when you can answer that please come up with who pushed for quota's and why. Then please put your data in here on how Cooke took more sheep than the resident. I also like your reference to an operation that caused the guiding industry more grief than any before or since, hence why the area was taken away. Your data and what you are insinuating in the above post is total BULLSHIT. I think the caliber of rams posted on this site by my son, all of which were guided for by myself pretty much shows the standards that were expected by our clients. For one thing the amount of resident sheep hunting back in those days was minimal, so your reference to the numbers is the same old twisted crap you keep posting. The allocation policy will do nothing to increase resident harvest, you can't begin to suceed on taking what you have now. Like I said in another post if an operation selling tropy hunts, fails to maintain trophy animals then cut the tags. Last but not least when did sheep become the choice of meat hunters? Keep up the good work of stirring crap with all your imagined bullshit one day it will come back to haunt you.

It's all in the 1976 data. Cooke took 54 in 1976 (that were reported anyway) and residents took 53 across all of the Peace.

The age might have been good in your area, but it sure as hell weren't in the others.

There were about 400 resident sheep hunters back then - only about 15-20% less than there are now, but they were harvesting less than HALF as many sheep as they are today. I'll help you with the math

1976 ~400 sheep hunters = 53 rams
Today ~550 sheep hunters = 120 rams

Pretty straightforward math; I hope this makes sense.


The allocation policy has already increased resident harvest. The 20% cut to quota two years ago and the removal of the 1 in 3 resulted in about a ~30% increase if I recall correctly. Residents are already harvesting 60% - compared to being allocated just 33% in 2006. :wink:

It's all in the numbers Willy.:lol:

[willy442]

It's all in the 1976 data. Cooke took 54 in 1976 (that were reported anyway) and residents took 53 across all of the Peace.

The age might have been good in your area, but it sure as hell weren't in the others.

There were about 400 resident sheep hunters back then - only about 15-20% less than there are now, but they were harvesting less than HALF as many sheep as they are today. I'll help you with the math

1976 ~400 sheep hunters = 53 rams
Today ~550 sheep hunters = 120 rams

Pretty straightforward math; I hope this makes sense.


The allocation policy has already increased resident harvest. The 20% cut to quota two years ago and the removal of the 1 in 3 resulted in about a ~30% increase if I recall correctly. Residents are already harvesting 60% - compared to being allocated just 33% in 2006. :wink:

It's all in the numbers Willy.:lol:

Yep you are right it's all in the numbers 6 and 7 year old rams, hope you and your friends are proud of thier sheep hunting accomplishments. I am of mine! Again Cooke is really a poor example that should not be used for any real comparison, remember you wouldn't know as you were'nt even in diapers yet, but we all worked to get rid of the problems created by Cooke. Also your numbers are not accurate because in the day Cooke was not required to report ages, he also took sheep for camp meat. Going to hang us all for that? This is my point entirely' YOUR INFORMATION IS NOT CONCRETE LIKE YOU SEEM TO BELIEVE" so most of it you can stick where the sun don't shine.

[willy442]

It's all in the 1976 data. Cooke took 54 in 1976 (that were reported anyway) and residents took 53 across all of the Peace.

The age might have been good in your area, but it sure as hell weren't in the others.

There were about 400 resident sheep hunters back then - only about 15-20% less than there are now, but they were harvesting less than HALF as many sheep as they are today. I'll help you with the math

1976 ~400 sheep hunters = 53 rams
Today ~550 sheep hunters = 120 rams

Pretty straightforward math; I hope this makes sense.


The allocation policy has already increased resident harvest. The 20% cut to quota two years ago and the removal of the 1 in 3 resulted in about a ~30% increase if I recall correctly. Residents are already harvesting 60% - compared to being allocated just 33% in 2006. :wink:

It's all in the numbers Willy.:lol:

By the way also in your numbers are tags bought by myself and other guides and or outfitters that never hunted. Regardless of what you say, I was in the bush for at least 100 days throughout the 70's,80's and early 90's, I know how many hunters were around. I also know how often resident pack outfits were parked along the Hwy as we made frequent trips to pick up our guests. There is away more hunting pressure now than was around back in even 76. Thanks for the numbers though and please answer the questions I asked earlier. If you are going to run off at the mouth please post something real instead of insinuations that wrote on SCOTTIES 2 PLY TISSUE. Becareful your finger might poke through.

[Fisher-Dude]

Yep you are right it's all in the numbers 6 and 7 year old rams, hope you and your friends are proud of thier sheep hunting accomplishments. I am of mine! Again Cooke is really a poor example that should not be used for any real comparison, remember you wouldn't know as you were'nt even in diapers yet, but we all worked to get rid of the problems created by Cooke. Also your numbers are not accurate because in the day Cooke was not required to report ages, he also took sheep for camp meat. Going to hang us all for that? This is my point entirely' YOUR INFORMATION IS NOT CONCRETE LIKE YOU SEEM TO BELIEVE" so most of it you can stick where the sun don't shine.

You GOs were all born on the same frikken farm. When the FACTS don't support your case (after you ask for proof), you call "foul" and say the FACTS are wrong. Yeah, you see some vehicles parked in a hunting area, and that must mean hunting pressure is through the roof. What a lame-assed argument you put forth.

You remind me of the region 8 GO who was standing up and yelling at the bios at FHAC about how "elk hunting pressure has doubled in the past 10 years", and how we need to put elk on LEH. When GoatGuy produces the actual MoE statistics showing how both hunter days and license sales had DROPPED 60% in the past 10 years in region 8, that same GO waits until after the meeting and phones the bio, telling him that the stats are meaningless and "just use common sense for f*** sakes!"

Pulling "common sense" out of your ass to suit your agenda isn't going to produce the results you want Willy.

[GoatGuy]

Yep you are right it's all in the numbers 6 and 7 year old rams, hope you and your friends are proud of thier sheep hunting accomplishments. I am of mine! Again Cooke is really a poor example that should not be used for any real comparison, remember you wouldn't know as you were'nt even in diapers yet, but we all worked to get rid of the problems created by Cooke. Also your numbers are not accurate because in the day Cooke was not required to report ages, he also took sheep for camp meat. Going to hang us all for that? This is my point entirely' YOUR INFORMATION IS NOT CONCRETE LIKE YOU SEEM TO BELIEVE" so most of it you can stick where the sun don't shine.

The information on Cooke's hunts were legally harvested rams not the other ones that weren't counted or harvested ilegally.

Here's the totals of legally and reported sheep. Hope this helps

1976

Total Guide harvest = 174
Total Resident Harvest = 53

Remember, it's all in the data.:razz:

[GoatGuy]

By the way also in your numbers are tags bought by myself and other guides and or outfitters that never hunted. Regardless of what you say, I was in the bush for at least 100 days throughout the 70's,80's and early 90's, I know how many hunters were around. I also know how often resident pack outfits were parked along the Hwy as we made frequent trips to pick up our guests. There is away more hunting pressure now than was around back in even 76. Thanks for the numbers though and please answer the questions I asked earlier. If you are going to run off at the mouth please post something real instead of insinuations that wrote on SCOTTIES 2 PLY TISSUE. Becareful your finger might poke through.

No different than today, I'm sure there are plenty of outfitters and guides who buy tags. That all cancels itself out. You need a bit of an understanding of statistics to understand how it all works.

Hunting in your dad's old outfit certainly doesn't give you an idea of resident pressure. A lot of it is still one of the toughest outfits to access. Unless you've got a supercub and a good driver or horses and a couple spare days on either end a resident ain't hunting most of that area.

Like I said, it's all in the numbers.

[Devilbear]

After reading through this, I am more convinced than ever that ALL "non-resident alien" hunting and angling here in BC MUST be BANNED, the sooner the better.

Too many gawdam mouthpieces who seem to think that THEY OWN the game.

[bigwhiteys]

After reading through this, I am more convinced than ever that ALL "non-resident alien" hunting and angling here in BC MUST be BANNED, the sooner the better. Too many gawdam mouthpieces who seem to think that THEY OWN the game.

We all know what you want Devilbear :) I don't agree it should be banned, we need the industry to exist or we'll become obselete even faster. Standing alone resident hunters don't seem to do much... Christ, BCWF has been around since the 60's? and this resident hunter fund is coming into play now...?

As resident hunters most of us DON'T DO SHIT to help our own situation out. We take, take, take, take, take, take, take, take, bitch, moan, take, take, take, take, bitch, moan... While the anti's just happily watch us sink our own ship (and you bet they are counting on this!)

You've got the guides, all united, fighting the same battle (or trying to), in the other corner is us residents a great big disorganized mob fighting battles on to many fronts, with too little money, and no real defined direction that everyone seems to agree upon.

From a younger guys point of view, especially with 3 young boys whom I'll raise to be hunters, it's a sad, sad thing.

Carl

[palmer]

Ok so I have stayed out of this till now cause I like to hear WILLYS stories and respect Carl for defending his families old way of life.
But we must be clear GOs fight for THEIR rights because its makes them money....plain and simple....They want less pressure and more trophy animals cause its makes them money...plain and simple.
The animals in this province belong to every resident...Period
So until every resident that wants can go by a tag and hunt them, only animals not on LEH should be hunted by NON RESIDENTS.
Only the surplus animals should be allowed to be sold...Period
We do not allow a higher limit on fish to Non residents and do not allow them to fish certain river to which we are not allowed and game should be the same.....EXCESS ONLY....not 1 in 500 chance LEH hunts....residents only.
The people that own the wildlife should have access to it first and foremost...Sorry but thats the way I see it.

[houndogger]

After reading through this, I am more convinced than ever that ALL "non-resident alien" hunting and angling here in BC MUST be BANNED, the sooner the better.

Too many gawdam mouthpieces who seem to think that THEY OWN the game.

So Kut you want it all to yourself? Lots of people dream of going to Africa, Alaska, Alberta....and some dream of coming to B.C.

It is a big province with lots of animals for everyone. This is the second year in a row I haven't bothered to put in for leh's. Plenty to hunt without them for the time being;)

The big picture is we lost most of the coastal gbear hunts. I have been on one and would love to go again. To bad the BCWF doesn't care....

[bigwhiteys]

Why don't we really get this resident hunter fund rockin' and start buying up some hunting consessions!!!! Can't beat em' join em!

The Greenies are doing it... why can't we?

Carl

[Devilbear]

I do NOT want to allow the same Americans who broke their word on the "softwood lumber" treaty with us, several times, to have access to OUR game, fish or anything else. I don't really care what any foreigner thinks about this and will be very active in advancing this cause during the coming season.

Oh, what about the OTHER Canadians who might want reasonably priced hunting for BC game? Should we continue to see THEM given "second place" to rich, fatazz Yankees?

BTW, what GO do you work for?

[lunatic]

We all know what you want Devilbear :) I don't agree it should be banned, we need the industry to exist or we'll become obselete even faster. Standing alone resident hunters don't seem to do much... Christ, BCWF has been around since the 60's? and this resident hunter fund is coming into play now...?

As resident hunters most of us DON'T DO SHIT to help our own situation out. We take, take, take, take, take, take, take, take, bitch, moan, take, take, take, take, bitch, moan... While the anti's just happily watch us sink our own ship (and you bet they are counting on this!)

You've got the guides, all united, fighting the same battle (or trying to), in the other corner is us residents a great big disorganized mob fighting battles on to many fronts, with too little money, and no real defined direction that everyone seems to agree upon

From a younger guys point of view, especially with 3 young boys whom I'll raise to be hunters, it's a sad, sad thing.

Carl




Finally someone says something that can relate to the thread I started. I started this thread about the possibility of losing our GOS for moose in the Peace and somehow we end up talking about sheep in N.E. BC. The theory is the same though and Bigwhiteys nailed it with this last statement. If we don't band together and fight for our rights, then we are going to see more and more LEH even if numbers don't dictate it as being necessary. Willy and Bridger are correct about that. I'm as guilty as some others for not standing up for our rights , but like some others felt the BCWF was not helping so I quite my membership. How about some ideas as to what we can do to get everyone on this site that loves hunting to speak up and be heard!

[lunatic]

Why don't we really get this resident hunter fund rockin' and start buying up some hunting consessions!!!! Can't beat em' join em!

The Greenies are doing it... why can't we?

Carl


That's definately an option. Would it work?

[lunatic]

I do NOT want to allow the same Americans who broke their word on the "softwood lumber" treaty with us, several times, to have access to OUR game, fish or anything else. I don't really care what any foreigner thinks about this and will be very active in advancing this cause during the coming season.

Oh, what about the OTHER Canadians who might want reasonably priced hunting for BC game? Should we continue to see THEM given "second place" to rich, fatazz Yankees?

BTW, what GO do you work for?



There are lots of Canadians that go hunting and fishing in the U.S. so that would not be wise. I do believe though that we as residents should have first choice!

[Fisher-Dude]

Finally someone says something that can relate to the thread I started. I started this thread about the possibility of losing our GOS for moose in the Peace and somehow we end up talking about sheep in N.E. BC. The theory is the same though and Bigwhiteys nailed it with this last statement. If we don't band together and fight for our rights, then we are going to see more and more LEH even if numbers don't dictate it as being necessary. Willy and Bridger are correct about that. I'm as guilty as some others for not standing up for our rights , but like some others felt the BCWF was not helping so I quite my membership. How about some ideas as to what we can do to get everyone on this site that loves hunting to speak up and be heard!

So let me get this straight: the GOABC is lobbying to put MORE resident hunters on LEH and get more of our quota, yet you feel we should band together with them or else we will see more LEH?

[Fisher-Dude]

Why don't we really get this resident hunter fund rockin' and start buying up some hunting consessions!!!! Can't beat em' join em!

The Greenies are doing it... why can't we?

Carl

You would like to see the European model of hunting concessions in private ownership so that we all have to pay big $$$ to hunt. Sure. Just what we need. :roll:

[Devilbear]

Geezuz Murphy, WHY should WE buy what is OURS already? We just cancel ALL GO concessions immediately and restrict ALL BC hunting to 90% BC residents and 10% other CANADIANS, NOBODY ELSE.

Oh, the GO's "business losses", tough schitt, business IS a risk and most of them are now rich Yankees who should never have been allowed to invest in OUR hunting at ANY level!

We will NOT lose our hunting if we ban foreign hunters, this is GO propaganda, about as realistic as the Easter Bunny.

[bigwhiteys]

Buy concessions and then control the harvest to manipulate the allocation policy... could be done no? Take the required amount of guided hunters to keep the license?

Resident owned concessions would get our foot in "that" door and allow us to exert more leverage. Control through Aquisition...

Greenies are playing that game and we aren't even close!

Carl

[bigwhiteys]

You would like to see the European model of hunting concessions in private ownership so that we all have to pay big $$$ to hunt. Sure. Just what we need. :roll:
What are you talking about...? I am not suggesting that at all.


Geezuz Murphy, WHY should WE buy what is OURS already? We just cancel ALL GO concessions immediately and restrict ALL BC hunting to 90% BC residents and 10% other CANADIANS, NOBODY ELSE.

Kutenay, because your idea would take years and an army of extremists to put into play :) My idea just takes a few million bucks and could happen tomorrow if the $$ was there. I'll say it again... The Greenies are doing it and will likely to continue to as they generate more and more funds. GO's don't care who they sell to when the $$ is there, soon you might get your wish. GO's will be abolished because the Greenies bought them all out... Then we are up shit creek with not only no paddles but we lost the entire boat too!

Carl

[Fisher-Dude]

Do you need a lesson is supply and demand economics to realize just how ridiculously expensive what you're proposing to do is?

[lunatic]

So let me get this straight: the GOABC is lobbying to put MORE resident hunters on LEH and get more of our quota, yet you feel we should band together with them or else we will see more LEH?


FD you missunderstand what I am saying. I meant that Bridger and Willy are correct about the fact that the GOABC is organized and we are not...that's it. Bigwhiteys nailed it when he said we are "a disorganized mob fighting on too many fronts". We need to organize to fight this. THAT is what I meant!

[Devilbear]

I KNOW that GOs and Yankee hunters are on the way out, but, I do not think that resident hunting for tradition, sport and meat is as endangered as many here rant about.

I know and have known most of the "high profile" environmentalists in BC over the pst 40+ years and VERY few of them want to eliminate hunting for residents. Sure, there ARE a few dipshcitts among them, but, consider Bryan Martin and many other GOs like him.....nah, we don't need millions, we just need a LOT of letters to politicos, bureaucrats and the media....we did it with wilderness parks and CAN do it with hunting/angling.

...Gos don't care who they sell to...EXACTLY, these dorks DO NOT care about anything except their wallets, as so many here keep pointing out, so, let's get rid of all of them!

[Fisher-Dude]

What are you talking about...? I am not suggesting that at all.



Kutenay, because your idea would take years and an army of extremists to put into play :) My idea just takes a few million bucks and could happen tomorrow if the $$ was there. I'll say it again... The Greenies are doing it and will likely to continue to as they generate more and more funds. GO's don't care who they sell to when the $$ is there, soon you might get your wish. GO's will be abolished because the Greenies bought them all out... Then we are up shit creek with not only no paddles but we lost the entire boat too!

Carl

Actually, let the greenies buy 'em and abolish foreign hunting in BC. Their ownership of GO territories with no non-resident harvest should open up more opportunities for residents. Use it or lose it says the allocation policy. The greenies can't stop residents from hunting in any territories - although the GOs seem to think that the current GOs can.

[lunatic]

Do you need a lesson is supply and demand economics to realize just how ridiculously expensive what you're proposing to do is?




Not trying to argue with you FD, but you seem to belittle every idea brought up.....so what's your brainwave? You must have some ideas.

[bigwhiteys]

Do you need a lesson is supply and demand economics to realize just how ridiculously expensive what you're proposing to do is?

You're helping illustrate the point. A well organized and funded group likely wouldn't have much of an issue putting out $2,000,000 to buy and then operate an area.

If the Greenies can pull it off and we can't that speak volumes!!

Carl

[Fisher-Dude]

Not trying to argue with you FD, but you seem to belittle every idea brought up.....so what's your brainwave? You must have some ideas.

Here's the lesson: the first few marginal operations get sold at fair market value, then as territories get fewer, the price goes up because the supply is lower. Ultimately, the last few are worth many many millions. Make more sense now?

My idea: the GOABC signed off on the allocation policy over 2 years ago. It needs to be implemented NOW without GOABC members appealing quota and Scott Ellis's economic viability report to government calling for extension of the implementation transition period to be extended from 2012 to 2017. Game managers must also not be swayed by the GOABC's lobbying to abolish resident opportunity through spike/fork seasons and the GOABC cannot lobby government to drop the recruitment and retention policy for resident hunters. The GOABC must stop lobbying government to put more of resident opportunity on LEH when there is no conservation concern, in an effort to push resident hunters out of the bush so they can sell "quality experiences" to rich foreigners. The GOABC must stop lobbying government to manage herds for "trophy animals" at the expense of resident opportunity and the health of the herds (ie 6 point elk seasons).

Is that clear enough Lunatic?

[Ambush]

If the Greenies can pull it off and we can't that speak volumes!!Carl

The difference being that the greenies have milllions of twinkies worldwide that have been duped into sending money to "SAVE" the planet.

We are eighty-thousand.:frown:

[bigwhiteys]

Here's the lesson: the first few marginal operations get sold at fair market value, then as territories get fewer, the price goes up because the supply is lower. Ultimately, the last few are worth many many millions. Make more sense now?

Thanks for the lesson Fisher-Dude. So instead of us buying them up and controlling the resource, let's just let the Greenies do it instead?

Carl

[lunatic]

Here's the lesson: the first few marginal operations get sold at fair market value, then as territories get fewer, the price goes up because the supply is lower. Ultimately, the last few are worth many many millions. Make more sense now?

My idea: the GOABC signed off on the allocation policy over 2 years ago. It needs to be implemented NOW without GOABC members appealing quota and Scott Ellis's economic viability report to government calling for extension of the implementation transition period to be extended from 2012 to 2017. Game managers must also not be swayed by the GOABC's lobbying to abolish resident opportunity through spike/fork seasons and the GOABC cannot lobby government to drop the recruitment and retention policy for resident hunters. The GOABC must stop lobbying government to put more of resident opportunity on LEH when there is no conservation concern, in an effort to push resident hunters out of the bush so they can sell "quality experiences" to rich foreigners. The GOABC must stop lobbying government to manage herds for "trophy animals" at the expense of resident opportunity and the health of the herds (ie 6 point elk seasons).

Is that clear enough Lunatic?


Were on the same side here FD lets get that straight right now! No wonder nothing changes.....just like Willy said......we're too busy arguing amongst ourselves about THE SAME DAMN THING! It's all fine and Dandy to say the GOABC Must do this and MUST do that but do you really think they are going to listen to YOU? or ME? Your idea has merit so what next? a letter writing campaign by every member on HBC? What??????? It's not that clear yet!

[Fisher-Dude]

Thanks for the lesson Fisher-Dude. So instead of us buying them up and controlling the resource, let's just let the Greenies do it instead?

Carl

Explain to me how the greenies will be controlling the resource of resident hunters. I understand that in your and willy's little world that you believed you controlled the resource of resident hunters by ripping up public access roads, but that's only in your mind.

[bigwhiteys]

Explain to me how the greenies will be controlling the resource of resident hunters. I understand that in your and willy's little world that you believed you controlled the resource of resident hunters by ripping up public access roads, but that's only in your mind.

Forget it... You're not even worth responding too any longer. Once you start this non-factual personal attack bullshit it gets old. Good luck in your fight FD.

Carl

[Fisher-Dude]

Were on the same side here FD lets get that straight right now! No wonder nothing changes.....just like Willy said......we're too busy arguing amongst ourselves about THE SAME DAMN THING! It's all fine and Dandy to say the GOABC Must do this and MUST do that but do you really think they are going to listen to YOU? or ME? Your idea has merit so what next? a letter writing campaign by every member on HBC? What??????? It's not that clear yet!

1.) Join the BCWF.
2.) Write letters to these people (http://http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=34610).
3.) Contact your MLA and let him/her know that you elected him/her to work for you. Explain your frustration with the GOABC's assault on YOUR hunting rights.

I'm not arguing with you Lunatic. I'm busy volunteering hundreds of hours of my time to my local club to fight this battle for your rights to your hunting resource. Cheers!

[Fisher-Dude]

Forget it... You're not even worth responding too any longer. Once you start this non-factual personal attack bullshit it gets old. Good luck in your fight FD.

Carl

Truth hurts huh?

[Gateholio]

Thanks for the lesson Fisher-Dude. So instead of us buying them up and controlling the resource, let's just let the Greenies do it instead?

Carl

Greenies that buy outfitters out will only be controlling the resource as it applies to non residents. Although an argument could be made that they will go further and try to control resident hunting, too, it would be much harder to implement, and would take an act of government instead of a simple business transaction.

[houndogger]

I do NOT want to allow the same Americans who broke their word on the "softwood lumber" treaty with us, several times, to have access to OUR game, fish or anything else. I don't really care what any foreigner thinks about this and will be very active in advancing this cause during the coming season.

Oh, what about the OTHER Canadians who might want reasonably priced hunting for BC game? Should we continue to see THEM given "second place" to rich, fatazz Yankees?

BTW, what GO do you work for?

I do water and sewer work so you can flush your crapper Kut:razz:

Would you like to loan me 1.5 million to buy up one of these foreign out outfits? I promise to pay you back:p I will even take you on a hunt;)

[willy442]

Ok so I have stayed out of this till now cause I like to hear WILLYS stories and respect Carl for defending his families old way of life.
But we must be clear GOs fight for THEIR rights because its makes them money....plain and simple....They want less pressure and more trophy animals cause its makes them money...plain and simple.
The animals in this province belong to every resident...Period
So until every resident that wants can go by a tag and hunt them, only animals not on LEH should be hunted by NON RESIDENTS.
Only the surplus animals should be allowed to be sold...Period
We do not allow a higher limit on fish to Non residents and do not allow them to fish certain river to which we are not allowed and game should be the same.....EXCESS ONLY....not 1 in 500 chance LEH hunts....residents only.
The people that own the wildlife should have access to it first and foremost...Sorry but thats the way I see it.

Palmer; Most residents in this Province are not hunters; However about 3.2 million people have equal ownership to the wildlife and are entitled to see some sort of return from the resource, no different than any other export item we have. The G/O's will play this card time after time and will win just like they have forever. The other arguement is that at present most spiecies can be hunted under GOS somewhere in the province. On the world wide stage the B.C. resident has hunting opportunities second to none and more variety than all except Africa. The present alotted resident harvest is not being achieved, yet the resident wants more tags. The G/O's stand is if there are as many animals as the resident is stating and they fail to harvest them, the G/O should be allowed a harvest increase. Hence the reason for the present debate over allocation. Guide Outfitting is big business and although I don't always agree with thier manner of operating at present. I do not fault them for trying to enhance or increase business and for anyone to do so is wrong, we live in a free country.

What needs to be done is the whole manner of dealing with Harvest, Allocation, G/O's and residents be revisited by the Ministry and a hard line plan drawn up. By which all must abide.

The problem is you, I and every other resident hunter can't come up with a united front. The people in the peace think different than the people from Robson street in Vancouver and other parts of the province. We have people out there like Kut's that are unwilling to come to the bargaining table on anything, Goat Guy and his 4000 and some odd posts that have accomplished nothing but throwing around numbers and adding fuel to an age old way of dealing with G/O's. Which for the most part are unsubstantiated, hence why when questioned he just comes up with more numbers and can't give answers, Fisher Dude who is still trying to catch up with what is happening and make sense of GG's numbers, while needing a faster quad to gather them all before time expires. My point being this whole picture makes me laugh at the lack of proffessionalisim presented by the resident on these issue's. How can the G/O not win when well organized and funded, especially when they can keep throwing cards back to help keep the fiasco going.

Carls idea of buying a few area's through the BCWF is really worth looking at if people want to get rid of out of Country owners. It would give the resident power on the GOABC board of directors, give you access to the funds they raise and you would not have to take one nonresident as long as the areas were hunted by residents.
The down side is the resident might have to dig into his pockets. This most likely won't happen so where are we now. The idea falls apart and we are right back with what we have now and the circle continues.

[willy442]

1.) Join the BCWF.
2.) Write letters to these people (http://http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=34610).
3.) Contact your MLA and let him/her know that you elected him/her to work for you. Explain your frustration with the GOABC's assault on YOUR hunting rights.

I'm not arguing with you Lunatic. I'm busy volunteering hundreds of hours of my time to my local club to fight this battle for your rights to your hunting resource. Cheers!

This has been done many times over and really just piss's off managers and plays right into G/O's. Can you say cut your own throat!

[willy442]

Do you need a lesson is supply and demand economics to realize just how ridiculously expensive what you're proposing to do is?

Do you realize just how much money is out there trying to stop you from hunting? Who said you had to buy all the area's. I think reference was made to taking over some. Just think if all 80.000 hunters were to donate twenty dollars apiece you could have your own private conccession. Quad trails and all.

[willy442]

Here's the lesson: the first few marginal operations get sold at fair market value, then as territories get fewer, the price goes up because the supply is lower. Ultimately, the last few are worth many many millions. Make more sense now?

My idea: the GOABC signed off on the allocation policy over 2 years ago. It needs to be implemented NOW without GOABC members appealing quota and Scott Ellis's economic viability report to government calling for extension of the implementation transition period to be extended from 2012 to 2017. Game managers must also not be swayed by the GOABC's lobbying to abolish resident opportunity through spike/fork seasons and the GOABC cannot lobby government to drop the recruitment and retention policy for resident hunters. The GOABC must stop lobbying government to put more of resident opportunity on LEH when there is no conservation concern, in an effort to push resident hunters out of the bush so they can sell "quality experiences" to rich foreigners. The GOABC must stop lobbying government to manage herds for "trophy animals" at the expense of resident opportunity and the health of the herds (ie 6 point elk seasons).

Is that clear enough Lunatic?

When did you and kut's take over running the Province? The last time I looked we were still a Country thriving on free enterprise and I haven't yet seen abody change that. So with that in mind. The GOABC and its members do not have to stop doing anything. Instead resident hunters need to start getting organized and united through good leadership and guidance. This however as I've stated many times will never happen because of extremists like yourself. I think maybe you should look in the mirror and see who needs lessons. Losing pretty much every nonresident battle for many years now should substantiate my statement. GG will probably post more confusing stats for you, but that's O.K.

If want to remove LEH give the G/O's a few more tags and they might even support you as long as it's not detrimental to wildlife populations. Trouble is you want cake, icing and the icecream all for yourself and the GOABC will not let that happen now or ever. So good luck writing Government.

[willy442]

You would like to see the European model of hunting concessions in private ownership so that we all have to pay big $$$ to hunt. Sure. Just what we need. :roll:

The path you would seem to support will help send it in this direction. Just like in the past with the fighting over allocation leading to more foriegn ownership.

[Fisher-Dude]

This has been done many times over and really just piss's off managers and plays right into G/O's. Can you say cut your own throat!

Better tell your BFF Ellis that he's gonna cut the GOs' throats with his fairy tale economic viability report then. And, tell him that the $150/yank Non-resident Hunter Protection Fund that he and his ilk are using to lobby the same game managers and politicians that I listed will backfire and play into the resident hunters' hands too.

You'd just LOVE it if we didn't speak up while the GOABC is actively pounding on Victoria's door, wouldn't you?

[willy442]

Better tell your BFF Ellis that he's gonna cut the GOs' throats with his fairy tale economic viability report then. And, tell him that the $150/yank Non-resident Hunter Protection Fund that he and his ilk are using to lobby the same game managers and politicians that I listed will backfire and play into the resident hunters' hands too.

You'd just LOVE it if we didn't speak up while the GOABC is actively pounding on Victoria's door, wouldn't you?

The thing you must remember speaking is of no value if you don't have a listener. The fund pays for Mr Ellis and others to insure the G/O's are heard in a proffessional organized manner. Something us residents don't really have and you by yourself will never have.

[goatdancer]

It appears that the original topic has been hijacked for yet another GO/resident debate.

[willy442]

It appears that the original topic has been hijacked for yet another GO/resident debate.

All issue's go back to the big bad G/O. Don't you understand?:smile:

[lunatic]

1.) Join the BCWF.
2.) Write letters to these people (http://http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=34610).
3.) Contact your MLA and let him/her know that you elected him/her to work for you. Explain your frustration with the GOABC's assault on YOUR hunting rights.

I'm not arguing with you Lunatic. I'm busy volunteering hundreds of hours of my time to my local club to fight this battle for your rights to your hunting resource. Cheers!



I commend you for your hundreds of hours of volunteer time. Believe me, if i didn't work a minimum of 15 hrs day 320+ days a year, stuck in the middle of frikken nowhere, I too would have time for that. I WILL however, take time to do some of the other suggestions as I can do that from work.

[Devilbear]

The growing antagonism toward foreign "trophy" hunters in BC WILL eliminate the GOs and within a very few years. Sure, we have Willy ranting about "professionalism" and misspelling the term each time he attempts to denigrate others and boast about his own, rather dubious, intellectual abilities; however, as Bob Dylan sang, " the times, they are a'changin'" and BC is a part of that.

The BEST option to defeat the GOABC is FREE and it is NOT deluging the current administration with reams of paper containing the earnest letters of resident hunters. It IS to get the major media involved, even MORE than they now are and constantly call their attention to the antics of the GOABC and question WHY foreign hunters should be allowed here, at all.

The media LOVES sensation, sells papers, air time and thus adverts. which mean PROFITS! Sooo, while the "Gordo" gang WILL sell us out to rich Yankee scum as they have in other resource areas, they DO take media comments and their influence on VOTES VERY seriously.

This will not be a "nice" struggle and the GOABC spinmeisters will do anything they can, but, public opinion is strongly opposed to their agenda and NOW is the time to strike! Letters to the "Sun" and requests to BCTV and CBC-TV WILL make a difference, the one we need to win!

[Devilbear]

I do water and sewer work so you can flush your crapper Kut:razz:

Would you like to loan me 1.5 million to buy up one of these foreign out outfits? I promise to pay you back:p I will even take you on a hunt;)

Ha!, my old man was a plumber, so, where would I get $$$$ like that?

But, say you DO buy an outfit, would you want an old, miserable baztard like ME hunting with you? Gawd, you must be one TOUGH dude to be able to put up with that!!! :):):)

[bridger]

I don't remeber the outfitters ever asking to have non residents put on sheep quota's they in fact fought tooth and nail to keep quota's out of the picture. in fact it was very ugly as i remember the president of our group rams (resident action for mountain sheep)got so many death threats that the rcmp tapped his phone in an effort to trace the calls. after the quota's were in place the smart outfitters saw an advantage and doubled the price of their sheep hunts even though their quotas at first were an average of their last three years harvest. the good guys got the short end of the stick on that one. tenure did two things it gave the outfitters security but unfortunately developed a sense of ownership in many of them that has let to a lot of the problems we have today.

[willy442]

I don't remeber the outfitters ever asking to have non residents put on sheep quota's they in fact fought tooth and nail to keep quota's out of the picture. in fact it was very ugly as i remember the president of our group rams (resident action for mountain sheep)got so many death threats that the rcmp tapped his phone in an effort to trace the calls. after the quota's were in place the smart outfitters saw an advantage and doubled the price of their sheep hunts even though their quotas at first were an average of their last three years harvest. the good guys got the short end of the stick on that one. tenure did two things it gave the outfitters security but unfortunately developed a sense of ownership in many of them that has let to a lot of the problems we have today.

You are partially right. The outfitters did not want any restriction. However once they came to realize they were going to have either LEH or Quota they supported Quota along with the ministry. I sat a many G/O meetings with dad on the issue. Believe me the G/O's had a pile of in fighting also.

[bridger]

are you talking about leh for non residents as opposed to quota for the non resident? the quota gave the outfitters control of the tag and thus the price while leh for non residents would give the tag to the hunter and he would be in a position to negotiate price. that is why the goabc wanted quota instead of leh for non residents. the point being was that the outfitters wanted no restrictions on their sheep numbers but when the hand writing was on the wall they argued for the quota system as opposed to non resident leh. there is a good side bad side to the quota system. it does give the outfitters complete control over price which is no one else's business which is good for g/o's. the bad side is that while a sheep hunt in selling for $30,000 us plus these days the government gets little in the way of royalty as opposed to Alberta where the g/o buys the tag from the government for several thousand dollars then sells it a non resident. the other down side from the residents point of view is giving the outfitters control of the tag it created a real sense of owner ship (these are my tags and no one is going to reduce my quota) if the government had put the non resident on leh they simply could reduce the number of tags available if need be just like they do residents which would have been the fairest and most manageble way to go. now it is a real process to reduce quota's. I am not saying it hasn't been done, but it has been painful.

[willy442]

are you talking about leh for non residents as opposed to quota for the non resident? the quota gave the outfitters control of the tag and thus the price while leh for non residents would give the tag to the hunter and he would be in a position to negotiate price. that is why the goabc wanted quota instead of leh for non residents. the point being was that the outfitters wanted no restrictions on their sheep numbers but when the hand writing was on the wall they argued for the quota system as opposed to non resident leh. there is a good side bad side to the quota system. it does give the outfitters complete control over price which is no one else's business which is good for g/o's. the bad side is that while a sheep hunt in selling for $30,000 us plus these days the government gets little in the way of royalty as opposed to Alberta where the g/o buys the tag from the government for several thousand dollars then sells it a non resident. the other down side from the residents point of view is giving the outfitters control of the tag it created a real sense of owner ship (these are my tags and no one is going to reduce my quota) if the government had put the non resident on leh they simply could reduce the number of tags available if need be just like they do residents which would have been the fairest and most manageble way to go. now it is a real process to reduce quota's. I am not saying it hasn't been done, but it has been painful.

Yes, I agree. However I believe that due to the system and the way it was implimented, we did alot to bring in the non resident ownership of outfits. Had there been some form of value that could be seen by lending institutes, maybe we would have more local owners. Look at the land where many of the main lodges are, it's leased and tied to the licence. If the land is not used for the purpose of a guide lodge it is lost back to the crown. My point is that even now there is no real value in G/O certificate and this alone will keep bringing foriegn ownership.

[GoatGuy]

You are partially right. The outfitters did not want any restriction.

Sounds more like it; last post made it sound like g/os were the ones who came up with the idea for quota and supported it. It was forced on them because they were shooting way too many sheep.

People don't usually send death threats when they're getting something they want. :roll:

[willy442]

Sounds more like it; last post made it sound like g/os were the ones who came up with the idea for quota and supported it. It was forced on them because they were shooting way too many sheep.

People don't usually send death threats when they're getting something they want. :roll:

Hey MR. Wet behind the ears you have no fricken idea of what we are even discussing so keep your 2 cents worth of crap to yourself. Answer my question on why sheep plugging came into effect. You don't know anymore about that than you did on this.:roll:

[GoatGuy]

Hey MR. Wet behind the ears you have no fricken idea of what we are even discussing so keep your 2 cents worth of crap to yourself. Answer my question on why sheep plugging came into effect. You don't know anymore about that than you did on this.:roll:

It's all in the numbers and the meeting minutes/media.

I'm pretty sure Bridger and I have had this discussion several times. :lol:

[willy442]

It's all in the numbers and the meeting minutes/media.

I'm pretty sure Bridger and I have had this discussion several times. :lol:

Funny I don't see Bridger backing much of your bullshit on here. In fact he pretty much avoids anything to do with your posts. Like I said earlier "over 4000 posts and what have you accomplished":roll:

[bridger]

non resident ownership of guide areas is in my opinion not a good deal for anyone the guiding industry or the resident side of things. too bad that canadian lending instituions are not more forward in their thinking. I would be a lot more understanding if a canadian who was also a bc resident raising a family and paying taxes that needed help that a board of directors from texas. but foreign ownership is a fact of life and someone in the goabc is pushing residents into a corner and giving us no choice but to fight our way out. look at the mess region 6 is in.

[bridger]

the fact that banks won't give value to a guiding certificate is not much different that a lot of other service industries that face the same funding problems to me the difference is that g/o's tend to get a feeling of exclusive ownership to the areas in which they are licensed to guide. letting g/o's buy large tracts of crown land in their guiding areas would only increase the per centage of non resident ownerhip as they now would have fee simple ownership to a lot of hunting country and an even more pronounced feeling of exclusiveness.

[willy442]

the fact that banks won't give value to a guiding certificate is not much different that a lot of other service industries that face the same funding problems to me the difference is that g/o's tend to get a feeling of exclusive ownership to the areas in which they are licensed to guide. letting g/o's buy large tracts of crown land in their guiding areas would only increase the per centage of non resident ownerhip as they now would have fee simple ownership to a lot of hunting country and an even more pronounced feeling of exclusiveness.

I agree and hate to to see any of the land be up for purchase, including a the land already sold in the trench and a couple of other places that we are both aware of. I was not saying this should be the case. I was using it as a reference as to why the door opened to foriegn ownership. The G/O's themselves don't favor it for the most part. How ever its no different than your business, one day you will retire and want something for your hard work. Are only going to sell to local interests or get the most you can from who ever?
The guides do have exclusive guiding rights and nothing else. I do agree some tend to think differently though. Not to open another can of worms but the fact that packers operated for so long unrestricted over top of the G/O's did not help relationships either.
The long and the short of it is though niether side has give up much, nor will they until Government starts doing its job properly. The political wrangling just seems to keep delaying anything that seems to be constructive by both parties.

[bridger]

as far as neither side giving up much i guess it all depends on how you look at it. in my view residents have given up a lot. British columbia has given non residents have a higher percentage of allocated harvest by specie than any other state or province. We gave that up to maintain a viable guiding industry in the province. what has the goabc given up damn little and always wanting more. now they want our wildife resources managed for trophy quality and reduce the number of resident hunting opportunites. I will say it again and for the last time on this thread the new goabc is driven by international hunting companies that don't give a damn about resident priortiy or opportunity and the sooner we all understand that the sooner it will change.

[Devilbear]

I agree and that is WHY I oppose ALL non-resident alien hunting here and so do MOST people I have discussed this with, province-wide, both hunters and non-hunters.

It will actually be comparatively EASY to totally eliminate foreign hunting in BC and the best method of doing so is to pressure the media to do frequent TV and newspaper articles on it.....the government WILL follow.

[willy442]

as far as neither side giving up much i guess it all depends on how you look at it. in my view residents have given up a lot. British columbia has given non residents have a higher percentage of allocated harvest by specie than any other state or province. We gave that up to maintain a viable guiding industry in the province. what has the goabc given up damn little and always wanting more. now they want our wildife resources managed for trophy quality and reduce the number of resident hunting opportunites. I will say it again and for the last time on this thread the new goabc is driven by international hunting companies that don't give a damn about resident priortiy or opportunity and the sooner we all understand that the sooner it will change.

I don't disagree with you on most points. The thing we forget is the past work of both the BCWF and the GOABC did alot to create the foriegn ownership issue's we today. It's damn well time to change the thinking of both groups and it's not happening. Hunters are a dying breed more so due to more people in urban communities against hunting, anti's in the schools preaching don't hurt Bambi, Movie stars and influential people stepping out publicly against hunting and trapping. and the list goes on. Here in BC most like to blame LEH and resident restriction. Which is garbage and what I keep disagreeing with. Like I've said many times our present hunting opportunities in this Province are second to none.

May I ask why you choose to go on guided hunts for Dalls, in areas that are almost 100% nonresident in stead of the Tatashini. You are using the exact services you are against, only in another territory.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There're are not too many people on this site that COMPLETELY oppose the GO industry. It's just that they seem to try to influence our gov't just a tad too much for the liking of most:roll:. The demand for most species by residents is still pretty high.

We still have 80,000+ resident hunters here in BC. The entire population of the Yukon is around 30,000. Not sure how many hunt but I would imagine that the percentage is relatively high compared to BC.
Here are some of the numbers for 2007-08. Not sure how most residents of the Yukon feel about the GO industry up there:???:.

http://environmentyukon.gov.yk.ca/huntingtrapping/images/harveststats0708.jpg

Here's a blurb on sheep from the Yukon MOE website.

Mountain Sheep
The Yukon is home to as estimated 22,000 thinhorn sheep. Most (about 19,000) are pure white Dall sheep (Ovis dalli dalli). Approximately 3,000 Stone sheep (O. d. stonei) are found in the south-central regions of the territory; many of these dark sheep have the unique saddle-back colour phase and are referred to as Fannin sheep. While Fannin sheep are not recognized as a separate subspecies, they are nonetheless highly prized by hunters.
Sheep occur throughout the Yukon's many mountain ranges, extending north to the Arctic Ocean. Sheep are most common in the southwest part of the Yukon, in the rainshadow of the St. Elias and Coast mountain ranges. We believe that sheep populations are at or near their historic numbers. The number of lambs entering the population is the driving force in sheep populations, rather than the number of animals leaving the population through predation or hunting. Reproductive success varies widely from year to year. We have observed rates from 1.5 to 67 lambs per 100 nursery sheep (ewes, yearlings, and some 2-year-old rams). Successive years of good or bad lamb production will determine whether the population is increasing or decreasing, and will influence the number of full curl rams entering the huntable population 6 to 8 years later. Each year licensed resident hunters take about 80 rams and non-resident hunters take 190 rams. During the 1990s the average age of the harvest was 9.0 years and the average horn length was 36.2 inches. Since 1980, the oldest sheep killed by a hunter was 17 years (1987), and the longest horn measured was 45.7 inches (1991).

With a harvest of 254 rams out of a population of 22,000 sheep there is MUCH less pressure on the sheep in the Yukon than here in BC.


In case you didn't notice, Willy, white sheep are completely LEH here in BC and we find out about our draws approx 3 weeks before the hunt starts.
Odds of getting drawn would certainly be better if the GO's did not have any permits.


SSS

[willy442]

There're are not too many people on this site that COMPLETELY oppose the GO industry. It's just that they seem to try to influence our gov't just a tad too much for the liking of most:roll:. The demand for most species by residents is still pretty high.

We still have 80,000+ resident hunters here in BC. The entire population of the Yukon is around 30,000. Not sure how many hunt but I would imagine that the percentage is relatively high compared to BC.
Here are some of the numbers for 2007-08. Not sure how most residents of the Yukon feel about the GO industry up there:???:.

http://environmentyukon.gov.yk.ca/huntingtrapping/images/harveststats0708.jpg

Here's a blurb on sheep from the Yukon MOE website.

Mountain Sheep
The Yukon is home to as estimated 22,000 thinhorn sheep. Most (about 19,000) are pure white Dall sheep (Ovis dalli dalli). Approximately 3,000 Stone sheep (O. d. stonei) are found in the south-central regions of the territory; many of these dark sheep have the unique saddle-back colour phase and are referred to as Fannin sheep. While Fannin sheep are not recognized as a separate subspecies, they are nonetheless highly prized by hunters.
Sheep occur throughout the Yukon's many mountain ranges, extending north to the Arctic Ocean. Sheep are most common in the southwest part of the Yukon, in the rainshadow of the St. Elias and Coast mountain ranges. We believe that sheep populations are at or near their historic numbers. The number of lambs entering the population is the driving force in sheep populations, rather than the number of animals leaving the population through predation or hunting. Reproductive success varies widely from year to year. We have observed rates from 1.5 to 67 lambs per 100 nursery sheep (ewes, yearlings, and some 2-year-old rams). Successive years of good or bad lamb production will determine whether the population is increasing or decreasing, and will influence the number of full curl rams entering the huntable population 6 to 8 years later. Each year licensed resident hunters take about 80 rams and non-resident hunters take 190 rams. During the 1990s the average age of the harvest was 9.0 years and the average horn length was 36.2 inches. Since 1980, the oldest sheep killed by a hunter was 17 years (1987), and the longest horn measured was 45.7 inches (1991).

With a harvest of 254 rams out of a population of 22,000 sheep there is MUCH less pressure on the sheep in the Yukon than here in BC.


In case you didn't notice, Willy, white sheep are completely LEH here in BC and we find out about our draws approx 3 weeks before the hunt starts.
Odds of getting drawn would certainly be better if the GO's did not have any permits.


SSS

Guess your point is if an animal is LEH it's OK to go to another province on a guided hunt. Just think if Stone's went LEH, you could hire even an old man like me and harvest a ram over seven years of age. Or move to the Yukon where the sheep almost out number the people and try your luck. Until the last few years it was almost 100% that you would be drawn for Dalls if you applied. I have many friends that have taken sheep there.



Something you don't understand being a chemist at a winery for peanuts is business. The Guide Outfitting Business here in BC is big business. These people in the industry are businessmen and will look out for thier interests, just like any other business would. This is why they are organised and present a proffessional image to Government and others they deal with. Until the resident hunter takes this into account and starts to play on the same level, they will continue to look like a joke on the back bench crying they're not playing fair. Just like you and some others do now. The G/O's owe you nothing and what they have was fought for through good political wrangling and planning. Granted maybe some what at the expense of the resident hunter, leaving all the more reason for guy's like yourself to forget the crap your buddy GG posts and organized. You can beat the old statistical drum to death and continue accomplishing what you have in the past. The G/O's will make you foolish time after time.

[bridger]

i have never said i am against non resident hunting and have always said i support a viable guiding industry in bc. i think what you need to come to grips with is that the guiding industry you and your family were a part of has changed. as for me going dall hunting with an outfitter if i didn't support a viable guiding industry i wouldn't have gone. I just don't support the present direction the goabc is going and will not sit idly by and see more resident opportunities go to texas. as far as co operating with the goabc history shows that everytime residents have made a concession the goabc has asked for more the next time. both the moe and goabc pay lip service only to resident priority. do you know that the g/o outfitters asked for and got administrative guidelines which allows them to harvest the majority of their five year quota in three and expect more. As for dwelling the past I don't spend much time worrying about what happened 30 years ago. those times are gone ;no more bar room brawls the goabc has become much more sophisticated and has move into the board rooms of government. We need to do the same thus the reason for our starting the resident hunting and fishing protection fund which will be launched at the end of the month. sad isn't it that as resident hunters we are second class citizens in our own province.

[willy442]

i have never said i am against non resident hunting and have always said i support a viable guiding industry in bc. i think what you need to come to grips with is that the guiding industry you and your family were a part of has changed. as for me going dall hunting with an outfitter if i didn't support a viable guiding industry i wouldn't have gone. I just don't support the present direction the goabc is going and will not sit idly by and see more resident opportunities go to texas. as far as co operating with the goabc history shows that everytime residents have made a concession the goabc has asked for more the next time. both the moe and goabc pay lip service only to resident priority. do you know that the g/o outfitters asked for and got administrative guidelines which allows them to harvest the majority of their five year quota in three and expect more. As for dwelling the past I don't spend much time worrying about what happened 30 years ago. those times are gone ;no more bar room brawls the goabc has become much more sophisticated and has move into the board rooms of government. We need to do the same thus the reason for our starting the resident hunting and fishing protection fund which will be launched at the end of the month. sad isn't it that as resident hunters we are second class citizens in our own province.

You and others have been trying to organize the resident hunter for years to protect our hunting here at home. I question if it will happen this time or if most will sit back as usual and let a few do the work. The RHFPF is long past due, I just hope it is supported well enough to get off the ground and used to accomplish some good.

Yes I'm aware of what the guides have and thier ability to harvest most a five year quota in three. Do I fault them? No; They are as I said "Business Men". The lack of organization and infighting among the resident has allowed this to happen. I'm well aware the industry has changed it's the biggest single reason we are no longer involved. The constant bantering over statistic's is an old approach, I don't believe what needs to be accomplished can be done through numbers. It may seem strange but I sometimes think as leftist as Devil Bear is maybe the media is a better way to go. It will stop the picking apart of statistics, but on the other hand is it something that will do good or will it fuel the anti's?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Sorry the info I posted was for the Yukon and not the NWT...where Bridger hunted.

Resident demand for Sheep in the NWT is even lower...much lower.

I tried copying and pasting but it didn't work properly.
Here's the link.

http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/_live/pages/wpPages/Dalls_Sheep.aspx

SSS

[bridger]

thanks for the info very few resident hunters in both the yukon and nwt.

[bridger]

I think the latest turn of events will organize resident hunters this time as a new approach is being taken. I will give you a call when the fundis kicked off and buy you a beer and collect your $100 donation

[willy442]

I think the latest turn of events will organize resident hunters this time as a new approach is being taken. I will give you a call when the fundis kicked off and buy you a beer and collect your $100 donation

Bridger; I will give you 100.00 in a heartbeat. I will also match Stone Sheep Steve's and B.C. Rams, cash donation dollar for dollar.

[willy442]

Sorry the info I posted was for the Yukon and not the NWT...where Bridger hunted.

Resident demand for Sheep in the NWT is even lower...much lower.

I tried copying and pasting but it didn't work properly.
Here's the link.

http://www.enr.gov.nt.ca/_live/pages/wpPages/Dalls_Sheep.aspx

SSS

Guess Goat and Deer should be LEH.:grin:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Bridger; I will give you 100.00 in a heartbeat. I will also match Stone Sheep Steve's and B.C. Rams, cash donation dollar for dollar.


Thanks...that's very generous of you, Bill.

While I'm not made of money, I'll do my best to come up with as much as possible. BCRams is away on vacation right now.

It's a good cause and your grandchildren will be forever grateful.

SSS

[willy442]

Bridger; I will give you 100.00 in a heartbeat. I will also match Stone Sheep Steve's and B.C. Rams, cash donation dollar for dollar.


Thanks...that's very generous of you, Bill.

While I'm not made of money, I'll do my best to come up with as much as possible. BCRams is away on vacation right now.

It's a good cause and your grandchildren will be forever grateful.

SSS

Not a big deal if it gets you to finally put something beside garbage back into the sport.

[ROY-alty33]

Hey I guess we will find out soon if there is or isn't a moose season in the peace this year. The synopsis should be out soon shouldn't it, it normally around the second week of July.

As an aside of course the greenies can provide a united front they have deep international pockets and usually are on government assistance, so they have all day to lobby. When the G/O are not guiding what do they have to do but meet and provide a common goal. We on the other hand are enthusiast / hobbiest who have to work in order to enjoy our slice of the pie.

[yama49]

I think the latest turn of events will organize resident hunters this time as a new approach is being taken. I will give you a call when the fundis kicked off and buy you a beer and collect your $100 donation


let us all know when it kicks in. i will donate forsure....

[GoatGuy]

Here in BC most like to blame LEH and resident restriction. Which is garbage and what I keep disagreeing with. Like I've said many times our present hunting opportunities in this Province are second to none.

For the number of animals and hunters we have BC probably has the most restrictive hunting seasons across NA. It's tough to compare each species to each other jurisdiction but when you look at the number of hunters in other provinces/states vs the amount of game it's pretty easy to see they keep things as liberal as possible.

Heck even in the Western US where they have up to 750,000 hunters they have spike and 3 pt elk seasons to make sure people can go out even if it's only for a couple days with a firearm. They also harvest across all segments of the population.


A lottery is generally used due to genuine conservation concerns although in some states and provinces they have 'trophy' zones. Such is not the case in BC. In BC we've stockpiled wildlife only to see it wiped out in a bad winter instead of harvesting it. Mule deer in the Peace is a prime example of that and we're doing our best to make Elk in the trench another example of wasted opportunity tied to booming predator populations and the ensuing predator pit.

If we were to deal with conservation and maximizing hunter opportunity in BC I can guarantee you we'd see more hunters and we wouldn't have lost 50% of our hunters in the last 25 years. BC is the only jurisdiction in NA that has seen such a sharp decline and you can tie it directly to almost every moose hunt in BC going from GOS to LEH with staggering odds. If you don't believe that then tell me why BC has had the greatest decline in hunters in North America.

Just look at the participation rates in the any buck or an moose GOS for that matter. Those seasons attract hunters and those are the seasons that have been and are being eliminated.

You won't have any hunters if they can't get an leh draw to go hunting.

You need to be able to go hunting to be a hunter. It doesn't need to be any more complex than that.

[willy442]

For the number of animals and hunters we have BC probably has the most restrictive hunting seasons across NA. It's tough to compare each species to each other jurisdiction but when you look at the number of hunters in other provinces/states vs the amount of game it's pretty easy to see they keep things as liberal as possible.

Heck even in the Western US where they have up to 750,000 hunters they have spike and 3 pt elk seasons to make sure people can go out even if it's only for a couple days with a firearm. They also harvest across all segments of the population.


A lottery is generally used due to genuine conservation concerns although in some states and provinces they have 'trophy' zones. Such is not the case in BC. In BC we've stockpiled wildlife only to see it wiped out in a bad winter instead of harvesting it. Mule deer in the Peace is a prime example of that and we're doing our best to make Elk in the trench another example of wasted opportunity tied to booming predator populations and the ensuing predator pit.

If we were to deal with conservation and maximizing hunter opportunity in BC I can guarantee you we'd see more hunters and we wouldn't have lost 50% of our hunters in the last 25 years. BC is the only jurisdiction in NA that has seen such a sharp decline and you can tie it directly to almost every moose hunt in BC going from GOS to LEH with staggering odds. If you don't believe that then tell me why BC has had the greatest decline in hunters in North America.

Just look at the participation rates in the any buck or an moose GOS for that matter. Those seasons attract hunters and those are the seasons that have been and are being eliminated.

You won't have any hunters if they can't get an leh draw to go hunting.

You need to be able to go hunting to be a hunter. It doesn't need to be any more complex than that.

How long are you going to milk your statictical cow. There is not one person in this Province that is prevented from hunting, unless they have had thier licence revoked. Most of your questions to hunter reduction can be answered in two words. VANCOUVER and VICTORIA. Political pressure from anti groups. The other contributing factor is aging of the general population. Potential new hunters are confused about hunting issue's through schools and media. Mentoring and taking kids out to see what hunting is and about will increase numbers. Seasons at this time have very little effect other than presenting an avenue for the resident to bitch.
If you think G/O's are hard to deal with just wait and see what these anti guy's can do.
As for your guarantee, it is as worthless as most of your statictics. Just because the groups you have stood in front of and baffeled with your numbers, believe you. Don't make you right or carry much credibility out side of a scientific world that has really accomplished little, nor will they for hunters.
:smile:

[bridger]

this thread has gotten way off the original topic but I think has raised a few good points. as resident hunters we have been the unwitting victims of a changing society and really haven't stood up and defended ourselves as we should have. I am not talking about g/o's and non residents but society in general. When i grew up and for most of my adult life hunters were the hero's of conservation. I think we have been fighting a rear guard action for too long and it is time to get back on track and stand up for our way of life. The goabc is big business and as such in my view has also lost direction in what hunting is all about. Fun and putting some steaks in the freezer. In the old days sheep hunts were 20/30 days travel mostly by pack string now you read often of guys getting a grandslam in one year travel by aircraft. that isn't about fun it is about prestige and a different outlook. We as residents are also guilty in some respects as a lot of us have also gotten away from the basics. I like to get a big ram or big bull as well as the next guy. I have also seen where that has taken wildlife management and the loss of hunting opportunities. I will use mule deer in the peace as an example. for 25 years we had a four point only season. in the early days we shot some awesome bucks as the population grew. but as time went on at the end of hunting season we few four pointers left and the trophy quality actually went down. It got so bad that the bag limit went to one four point buck every two years. In the meantime the mule deer population exploded to the point that they were a nusiance and finally the moe reversed and opened up very liberal anterless seasons that and a tough winter in 06/07 pretty well took care of the surplus. the same can be said for the tuchodi elk hunt restrictive bull seassons only for many years have resulted in fewer big bulls and an overgrazed winter range. I think this is the point that goat guy is trying to make and why many of us are concerned about the present push by the goabc to manage all species for quality not quantity. Trophy only seasons will result in fewer hunting opportunities for residents not more. In my view if we change our outlook, get our pride back and both sides get back to the basics of hunting it will be a win win situation. Unfortunately i fear there will be some blood on the ground before this is over as there was 30 years ago. In the good old days were we dealing with canadian owned outfits run by canadian families, not so much anymore..

[wetcoasthunter]

Don't Worry GG about 442, he thinks numbers and facts are the devil's handywork.

Can't we agree that while the seasons are not the only reason for reduced involvement they certainly don't help. Open it up some more and make it more appealing to more people (as long as there is no conservation concern).

I was also wondering, if these GO's are so hurting for cash, why is it they can afford to influence government? The kind of influence they have in government can't come cheap.

[6616]

Willie, I think it's you that is flogging a dead horse to death.

There are many reasons that contribute to the decline in hunters including the ones you mention with Federal gun control legislation being the biggest which probably explains why the decline has been greater in Canada then in the USA.

But the decline in BC has been greater then in any other Canadian province and there's a reason for that. Even the MOEs hunter recruitment/retention report has identified shrinking opportunities as the reason that sets BC apart from other provinces. Today we have more elk, moose, and white tailed deer in southern BC then ever before, but we have fewer hunting opportunities then ever before as well. Statistics show the trends. Current stockpiles of wildlife show the trens as well. If you can't believe statistics what do you believe? Gut instinct...field experience,,,just not good enough Willie...?

Urbanization and population demographics is a contributing cause but a good case can be made that shows other provinces with just as much urbanization as BC and their hunter numbers have not shrunk near as much as BCs have. BCs population that resides in our two bigggest urban population centers is 55% of our total population, but in Alberta the population residing in their two largest urban areas is 57% of their total population and Alberta has not lost half their hunters in the last 30 years like we have.

It's time to quit flogging a dead horse and to begin taking advantage of our current stockpiles of wildlife...!

I guess you don't know me or what I do for a living, so I guess you'll have to find another way to insult me (unlike how you insulted SSS and GG by their occupation) but I'm sure you'll find a way...!

[willy442]

Urbanization and population demographics is a contributing cause but a good case can be made that shows other provinces with just as much urbanization as BC and their hunter numbers have not shrunk near as much as BCs have. BCs population that resides in our two bigggest urban population centers is 55% of our total population, but in Alberta the population residing in their two largest urban areas is 57% of their total population and Alberta has not lost half their hunters in the last 30 years like we have.


To compare the two largest cities in Alberta to the two in B.C is like comparing apples to oranges. I have never heard of anti hunting protests in either Alberta city like ours, regardless of numbers. To make the statement that reduced opportunity, during a time when your any of your main spiecies harvested for meat are under GOS in many places in the Province, is nothing more than a ploy by the BCWF. When is this organization of which you are a member going to grow up get organized and accomplish something? I have watched time and again, when the Federation has been playing catch up to the hunting industry. It's time to cut the Political Bullshit of numbers and start leading with reality. Predator control, extra harvest in area's that can sustain it, habitat burns in area's that need it, even building Duck ponds if that's what you want. My point being if we are going to continue letting politics dictate our hunting we are going to continue fighting with G/O's and other user groups, while the real eniemies, to hunting thrive. These numbers are constantly thrown around, manipulated to whoever they suit and the political game just goes on and on. Some of us a sick and tired of it, stop beating a dead horse.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Obviously, Willy doesn't like math or science. He's what commonly known as a "numer-phobe". It's hard to argue with either of those. He only likes "opinions" because the loudest, most relentless guy always wins...at least in his mind. If numbers don't make sense to him he calls "BS".

Raise yourself up by putting other people down. We all know the type.
Carefull when you finally fall off that horse. It's getting pretty high:roll:.

SSS

[boxhitch]

[quote]To compare the two largest cities in Alberta to the two in B.C is like comparing apples to oranges. I have never heard of anti hunting protests in either Alberta city like ours, regardless of numbers. So far the attacks are against Bear hunting. BC is saving the Rainforest. Alberta lost their GBear opportunities. More like Macs vs Galas.


To make the statement that reduced opportunity, during a time when your any of your main spiecies harvested for meat are under GOS in many places in the Province, is nothing more than a ploy by the BCWFPloy ? Sounds devious. When ex-hunters are asked why they don't hunt, the reasons get clear.
.
When is this organization of which you are a member going to grow up get organized and accomplish something? I have watched time and again, when the Federation has been playing catch up to the hunting industryRecent actions are being directly undermined by the G/O's cry for viability. The allocation Policy finally puts a definitive split to the pie. now lets implement it, then work together to build a bigger pie. .
It's time to cut the Political Bullshit of numbers and start leading with reality.Whos vision of reality should we use ?
The current issue is how users can achieve what has been dealt to them. Its only fair to resolve that.

[6616]

[quote=willy442;478215]
So far the attacks are against Bear hunting.

Big difference,,, 750 grizzlies in Alberta and 16,000+ in BC. Alberta has no "Great Bear Rainforest" or white bears, but they're still whacking' and stackin' blackies.

[willy442]

[quote=boxhitch;478247]

Big difference,,, 750 grizzlies in Alberta and 16,000+ in BC. Alberta has no "Great Bear Rainforest" or white bears, but they're still whacking' and stackin' blackies.

That is exactly part of my point when saying don't compare the two.

What has "so far gotten" the resident in the past. Let me tell you.

Usually a request to the Ministery for more time to deal with issue's ready to pass through the approval proccess of Government, presented by the G/O. This is time usually granted so " we the resident" can piss and moan, then have the good old boys club unite behind closed doors on the issue. Without contacting the membership of the BCWF because doing so would start a scenario much like this post.

[6616]

To make the statement that reduced opportunity, during a time when your any of your main spiecies harvested for meat are under GOS in many places in the Province, is nothing more than a ploy by the BCWF.

Some ploy, explain to me why non-resident quota for moose went from 15 to 127 in a short period between 2000 and 2007 while resident LEH odds are 10 - 20 to 1 and moreover, why resident hunters should be OK with this.....?

....or GOS with trophy antler restrictions, coupled with access restrictions, when we're over-run with elk and deer and agriculture producers are getting clobbered to the tune of $25,000.00 to $35,000.00 each, every year...?

And yes,,, all sheep in BC should be on LEH?????,,,even though residents are not harvesting their sheep allocation in most regions,,,,,please explain...!

[willy442]

[quote=willy442;478215]
So far the attacks are against Bear hunting. BC is saving the Rainforest. Alberta lost their GBear opportunities. More like Macs vs Galas.

Ploy ? Sounds devious. When ex-hunters are asked why they don't hunt, the reasons get clear.
.Recent actions are being directly undermined by the G/O's cry for viability. The allocation Policy finally puts a definitive split to the pie. now lets implement it, then work together to build a bigger pie. . Whos vision of reality should we use ?
The current issue is how users can achieve what has been dealt to them. Its only fair to resolve that.

See post 187.
Please tell me what good your numbers game is doing to implement the Allocation Policy. From what I see it's allowed the G/O to play the old game of questioning numbers, again delaying the results the resident is demanding. This is directly why I question the use of this information in the manner it's been used in the past. The numbers are not very hard to prove wrong as the data that created them is usually not very accurate. Defend them if you want and continue being laughed at by those outside of your circle.

[willy442]

Some ploy, explain to me why non-resident quota for moose went from 15 to 127 in a short period between 2000 and 2007 while resident LEH odds are 10 - 20 to 1 and moreover, why resident hunters should be OK with this.....?

....or GOS with trophy antler restrictions, coupled with access restrictions, when we're over-run with elk and deer and agriculture producers are getting clobbered to the tune of $25,000.00 to $35,000.00 each, every year...?

And yes,,, all sheep in BC should be on LEH?????,,,even though residents are not harvesting their sheep allocation in most regions,,,,,please explain...!

How many times do I have to tell you. There is one reason that has nothing to do with numbers. THE GUIDE OUTFITTERS ARE BETTER ORGANIZED AND PRESENT THEMSELVES AS PROFFESSIONALS. When are you and the organization you are tied to going to catch up. Never if you keep whinning about these numbers.

[willy442]

Obviously, Willy doesn't like math or science. He's what commonly known as a "numer-phobe". It's hard to argue with either of those. He only likes "opinions" because the loudest, most relentless guy always wins...at least in his mind. If numbers don't make sense to him he calls "BS".

Raise yourself up by putting other people down. We all know the type.
Carefull when you finally fall off that horse. It's getting pretty high:roll:.

SSS

Been thrown off my horse many times. At least I know how to ride one.:roll:

[GoatGuy]

How long are you going to milk your statictical cow. There is not one person in this Province that is prevented from hunting, unless they have had thier licence revoked. Most of your questions to hunter reduction can be answered in two words. VANCOUVER and VICTORIA. Political pressure from anti groups. The other contributing factor is aging of the general population. Potential new hunters are confused about hunting issue's through schools and media. Mentoring and taking kids out to see what hunting is and about will increase numbers. Seasons at this time have very little effect other than presenting an avenue for the resident to bitch.
If you think G/O's are hard to deal with just wait and see what these anti guy's can do.
As for your guarantee, it is as worthless as most of your statictics. Just because the groups you have stood in front of and baffeled with your numbers, believe you. Don't make you right or carry much credibility out side of a scientific world that has really accomplished little, nor will they for hunters.
:smile:

Look at the population in Washington State and the anti-hunting movement in Seattle-Tacoma and then tell me Vancouver and Victoria are the problems.:roll:

One thing I must say: with all of your posts you have certainly motivated a few more people to get involved. Not because you've inspired them, but more because you've pissed them off. I guess that's an acquired skill.

[bridger]

here are some numbers that will at least in my mind demonstrate the unfairness in sheep numbers. in region 6 the non resident quota last year was 170 rams. the harvest has been around 70 rams for the last several years the moe has automatically been raising the quota by 20% annually why do you need a quota of 170 if the harvest is only 70. on top of that the regional biologists had never set an annual allowable harvest. how can you manage sheep like that and how in good conscious increase the quota automatically. no one in region 6 has been minding the store. resident sucess rate is really low in region 6 how could be it anything else when the quota is so high. the implementation of the new allocation policy has not been delayed because of number games played by the goabc. it was a political decision meaning the goabc has more stroke with the moe that resident hunters. really pretty simple. that is why we have to turn this around all the bantering back and forth means nothing and will accomplish nothing. the only things politicians and government beaucrats respect is political power. that is why the new fund is being formed and if resident hunters and fisherman don't get on the band wagon our situation will continue to go down hill. the fund will also provide money for professional presentations to governments on other issues like the anti bear hunting movement etc.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Been thrown off my horse many times.

At least one too many times:wink:.
You guys with horses can keep them. I'll stick to my boots.....for now. My falls are much shorter.

SSS

[bridger]

numbers are important because the can show the unfairness of a situation. take stone sheep in region 6 for example. The non resident quota is 170 the non res harvest is around 70 rams.why the need for the large quota? the moe has traditionally increased the quota by 20% each allocation period. incredibly the regional biologists had never set a aah for stones in region 6 but kept increasing the quota while the residents are on leh for a lot of the region and no increase in tags. numbers and per centages are important as they are the base of the allocation policy. the fact the goabc got its implementationn delayed is not based on numbers. the goabc has more influence with the moe that we do as resident hunters. Same goes for moose in the east kootenay's and in the omineca. I think we all agree it is time for a change. the new fund will provide that opportunity lets hope residents take advantage of it in a big way.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

numbers are important because the can show the unfairness of a situation. take stone sheep in region 6 for example. The non resident quota is 170 the non res harvest is around 70 rams.why the need for the large quota? the moe has traditionally increased the quota by 20% each allocation period. incredibly the regional biologists had never set a aah for stones in region 6 but kept increasing the quota while the residents are on leh for a lot of the region and no increase in tags. numbers and per centages are important as they are the base of the allocation policy. the fact the goabc got its implementationn delayed is not based on numbers. the goabc has more influence with the moe that we do as resident hunters. Same goes for moose in the east kootenay's and in the omineca. I think we all agree it is time for a change. the new fund will provide that opportunity lets hope residents take advantage of it in a big way.

Does anyone know "who" came up with the "Skeena Formula"???

SSS

[willy442]

here are some numbers that will at least in my mind demonstrate the unfairness in sheep numbers. in region 6 the non resident quota last year was 170 rams. the harvest has been around 70 rams for the last several years the moe has automatically been raising the quota by 20% annually why do you need a quota of 170 if the harvest is only 70. on top of that the regional biologists had never set an annual allowable harvest. how can you manage sheep like that and how in good conscious increase the quota automatically. no one in region 6 has been minding the store. resident sucess rate is really low in region 6 how could be it anything else when the quota is so high. the implementation of the new allocation policy has not been delayed because of number games played by the goabc. it was a political decision meaning the goabc has more stroke with the moe that resident hunters. really pretty simple. that is why we have to turn this around all the bantering back and forth means nothing and will accomplish nothing. the only things politicians and government beaucrats respect is political power. that is why the new fund is being formed and if resident hunters and fisherman don't get on the band wagon our situation will continue to go down hill. the fund will also provide money for professional presentations to governments on other issues like the anti bear hunting movement etc.

Yes; I think I've mentioned the fact that the GOABC carries more stroke and why. I also agree that some numbers are of assistance in negotiating harvest, allocation and all the rest. My point is they are not everything like some think, and all three groups (BCWF, GOABC and the MINISTRY) continue to twist them to suit whatever case or point each group tries to get across. I think too many numbers contribute to confusion and delay proccess. I'm totally in support of the fund, you have worked to create and intend on honouring my post on the topic. We need organization and a united front as much or more than money. Can we get it, is my question. From some on here it seems not.

[bridger]

Does anyone know "who" came up with the "Skeena Formula"???

SSS

In region 6, rick marshal as far as I know. in the early days they used a similiar one in the peace designed by john elliot. are you familiar with the kootenay model? It is even more bizzare. they have several areas down there with a few sheep that are not guide territories. In this model the regional manager gives the outfitters a per centage of the rams in the unallocated areas and adds that per centage to the quota's effectively giving the g/o's a higher percentage of the rams in their respective areas where most of the sheep are found. the list goes on, but I disgress and my stomach gets upset thinking about it.

[GoatGuy]

In region 6, rick marshal as far as I know. in the early days they used a similiar one in the peace designed by john elliot. are you familiar with the kootenay model? It is even more bizzare. they have several areas down there with a few sheep that are not guide territories. In this model the regional manager gives the outfitters a per centage of the rams in the unallocated areas and adds that per centage to the quota's effectively giving the g/o's a higher percentage of the rams in their respective areas where most of the sheep are found. the list goes on, but I disgress and my stomach gets upset thinking about it.


I suppose when we look at it every region has a 'model'. Most of 'em are pretty ugly.

[boxhitch]

][Please tell me what good your numbers game is doing to implement the Allocation Policy.The substance has nothing to do with the implementation. The will has to be there.

From what I see it's allowed the G/O to play the old game of questioning numbers, again delaying the results Being in agreement one day, then changing position does no one any good. Its also damaging to image. Not their best move.


The numbers are not very hard to prove wrong as the data that created them is usually not very accurate.
The proof is in the data. Proving it wrong would mean coming up with contrary data, not just an opinion. Show the proof.

[boxhitch]

they have several areas down there with a few sheep that are not guide territories. In this model the regional manager gives the outfitters a per centage of the rams in the unallocated areas and adds that per centage to the quota's effectively giving the g/o's a higher percentage of the rams in their respective areas where most of the sheep are found. .So these area could become over-hunted, while the resident still has access to the rams in un-allocated areas ?
Could be tough on the pop. figures in some local herds. Maybe only a couple of animals, but on the wrong side of the quota table .

[GoatGuy]

So these area could become over-hunted, while the resident still has access to the rams in un-allocated areas ?
Could be tough on the pop. figures in some local herds. Maybe only a couple of animals, but on the wrong side of the quota table .

Shouldn't have ever happened, and is to be done away with in 2012. Somebody's brainchild to make it look like the split is 'fair'.

Along with success rates and AGs it results in a revolving door for non-res sheep hunters in the EK. Success rate is something like 25%.

They've allocated sheep that simply don't exist. Feel sorry for the MoE staffers that have to implement this stuff- I'm sure they're listening to a lot of complaining right now all because one of their predecessors decided to give away the farm.

[6616]

In the Koots there are 2200 sheep. AAH is based on 2.5% of 2200 or 55 sheep.

There are some sheep in open hunting areas that are not allocated as guide territiries but there are a lot of sheep in National Parks and in the no-hunting mine properties in the Elk Valley. There are about 1850 sheep in the guide territories but their quota is based on the 2200 head regional population, including the 350 head that cannot be hunted.

Non-resident allocation is 30% or 17 sheep. To harvest these 17 sheep the cumulative quota for all outfitters is 48 non-resident tags. (Money in the bank?)

To arrive at a quota of 48 from an allocation of 17, success rates and admin guidelines are used. Guides fully utilize their quota and harvest 15 to 17 rams per year. If they don't, MOE simply increases the quota based on success rates. This will not be allowed after 2011.

Resident allocation is 35 rams. Resident allocation is also based on 2200 sheep but residents never use all their allocation and have never shot more then 25 rams in any year and usually fewer. MOE makes sure of this by using access management measures and outfitters have sheep camps in behind the closures. Some of the non-motorized areas are very large. Resident opportunity is GOS but is heavily restricted by access management. To harvest sheep consistently resident hunters need horses to penetrate the non-motorized guide areas.

There is very little danger of an over-harvest. Resident harvest is severely restricted as mentioned above. There is no need for outfitters to harvest more sheep either when non-resident hunters are willing to pay $25,000.00 to $30,000.00 for a 35% percent success rate hunt, all they want is the quota so they can be safe in booking lots of hunts.

The entire Kootenay non-resident sheep quota could fit into a single northern outfitting territory, it is economically small potatoes compared to Stone Sheep hunting.

It is also a very physically demanding hunt compared to most Stone Sheep hunts.

[6616]

Feel sorry for the MoE staffers that have to implement this stuff- I'm sure they're listening to a lot of complaining right now all because one of their predecessors decided to give away the farm.

Yes that is going to be a huge task....and there will be a significant effort put up by the Southern Guides to circumvent the allocation policy.

The economics of it are that a quota of 48 at $25,000 each = 1.2 million dollars,,,,, to kill 17 sheep, or about $70,000 per ram. A sum resident sheep hunting cannot generate unless residents find a way to utilize their full allocation of 35 sheep.

[bridger]

is it any wonder resident hunters are getting fed up?

[boxhitch]

The economics of it are that a quota of 48 at $25,000 each = 1.2 million dollars,,,,, to kill 17 sheep, or about $70,000 per ram. A sum resident sheep hunting cannot generate unless residents find a way to utilize their full allocation of 35 sheep.
That should never have to be equated on a $to$ balance. Resident value has to be weighted. Bad news is money speaks loudly.

[boxhitch]

is it any wonder resident hunters are getting fed up?I bet effort has changed too. Fewer hunt groups with the livestock needed, and probably a cap on packers ?

[6616]

An even worse situation with goats exists in the Kootenay. Residents have almost quit hunting goats. About 1/4 of the authorizations and about 60% of the resident allocation is utilized.

Non-resident quota is generous, guides are only using about half of their allocation yet are still harvesting about 65% of the total annual goat harvest.

Less then 60% of the total AAH is harvested yet MOE steadfastly refuses to give up LEH for goats, minimum success rates to calculate LEH, and/or restrictive access measures in many of the best goat hunting areas.

WTFIGO....?????

[6616]

I bet effort has changed too. Fewer hunt groups with the livestock needed, and probably a cap on packers ?

No packers in the EK that I know of.

[6616]

is it any wonder resident hunters are getting fed up?

Actually it's gone beyond that, so many former hunters have almost completely quit and don't care anymore that there's a significant amount of apathy out there amongst all but the most dedicated hunters, but most of the dedicated guys aren't happy with how things have been going. Regional advisory committee volunteers are subjected to most of their wrath even though they are often the only ones actually trying to change things..!

[boxhitch]

I bet some LEH any ram would get some interest whipped up.
Utilize some of those old geezers that just fade away.

No doubt a packer would have troubles with animal health real fast,

[GoatGuy]

There is no need for outfitters to harvest more sheep either when non-resident hunters are willing to pay $25,000.00 to $30,000.00 for a 35% percent success rate hunt, all they want is the quota so they can be safe in booking lots of hunts.


Thought the success rate was closer to 25%.

[6616]

Thought the success rate was closer to 25%.

Non-residents shoot 16 or 17 rams on a quota of 48 tags annually.

I don't know what it is for residents in the GOS, probably less then 10%.

[GoatGuy]

Non-residents shoot 16 or 17 rams on a quota of 48 tags annually.

I don't know what it is for residents in the GOS, probably less then 10%.

Just looked it up, 26% is the 10 year average. Average harvest is less than 10.

Just another case where it looks good on paper - reality of the situation is the sheep are over-allocated.

[6616]

Just looked it up, 26% is the 10 year average. Average harvest is less than 10.

Just another case where it looks good on paper - reality of the situation is the sheep are over-allocated.

My numbers were for the last five years only. I remember those years when they were down around 10. Residents have been down that low as well. Population could have been smaller then?

I also think the AAH is too high. Based on herd demogrphics published by Val Geist out of 2200 sheep there's probably only 100 to 120 class 4 rams in existence at any one time. Shooting half of them every year might be a little bit much.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Yes that is going to be a huge task....and there will be a significant effort put up by the Southern Guides to circumvent the allocation policy.

The economics of it are that a quota of 48 at $25,000 each = 1.2 million dollars,,,,, to kill 17 sheep, or about $70,000 per ram. A sum resident sheep hunting cannot generate unless residents find a way to utilize their full allocation of 35 sheep.

Those are some pretty expensive horseback rides:roll:.

SSS

[6616]

I bet some LEH any ram would get some interest whipped up.
Utilize some of those old geezers that just fade away.

No doubt a packer would have troubles with animal health real fast,

Remember what happened in the Fraser with the 3/4 curl regulation. It wasn't the big old broomed rams that were getting shot, but it would be good if it worked that way.

There's not near as many of those old broomed Cali type horns in the Rocky populations, but there are some. The 8 yr age reg didn't work very well either. I think the answer is simply to eliminate or rotate a few of the non-motorized closures.

[6616]

Those are some pretty expensive horseback rides:roll:.

SSS

Yah, and $25,000.00 would be a bargin basement price.

In all fairness, once a hunter gets back into the sheep camp area the hunting is mostly on foot and many of the experienced sheep hunting clients from the States just aren't up to lasting a full ten days in Kootenay sheep or goat terrain.

[Kody94]

the sheep are over-allocated.

Reminds me of a Tragically Hip song...."maybe I couldn't get a ram cuz they're, over-allocated"... (sung to 'Opiated' of course)

I probably shouldn't share these things...

:)

[Kody94]

In all fairness, once a hunter gets back into the sheep camp area the hunting is mostly on foot and many of the experienced sheep hunting clients from the States just aren't up to lasting a full ten days in Kootenay sheep or goat terrain.

If you ask around I'll bet you'll hear that the average number of trips "up the mountian" (ie. off of a horse) for non-res clients on a 10 day trip in the Kootenays is 3.

SSS has it pegged....expensive trail ride! :)

[sawmill]

And if you got 100 lbs of meat in the freezer it works out to 250$ a lb.(not counting transport and butcher)I don`t need horns that bad,I`ll stick to deer and elk.

[hillclimber]

well there is a GOS for moose so everybody can calm down now:mrgreen:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/

[wetcoasthunter]

well there is a GOS for moose so everybody can calm down now:mrgreen:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/ (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/regulations/)


ya, great, spike-fork, might as well call those buggers unicorns. But I guess its a start. Man the Koots are messed up, loosen up the moose season but keep that crappy old 6pt Elk season

[Kody94]

ya, great, spike-fork, might as well call those buggers unicorns. But I guess its a start. Man the Koots are messed up, loosen up the moose season but keep that crappy old 6pt Elk season
I think he's referring to the fact that there still is an any bull season in Region 7. The rumours of its demise appear to have been grossly exaggerated. :)

[hillclimber]

yes i was reffering to region 7. westcoast hunter at least moose it the koots aren't all on leh this year.

the only thing i will complain about is about moose in reg 5. a spike fork season would have been nice.