Dall Sheep definition and boundary in BC

[jml11]

Ever since working on a Stone's sheep project a few years ago I became interested in sheep hunting and took a Stoner a couple years ago. Now that I have been infected with sheepitis I plan to continue to hunt them and would love to accomplish a BC Sheep Slam and if I ever get rich a NA Sheep Slam.

As a result I have continued to research sheep hunting all over the province and have been recently looking into our Dall Sheep. My question is, is there a "line" which distinguishes dalls from Stone's (fannins really). I've been told bennett lake (or border of 6-28 and 6-27); however I cannot find this definition anywhere. The Boone and Crockett club doesn't define a line only that "any thinhorn that shows any black hairs on the body is classified as a Stone's unless the black hair is only on the tail". They go on to state "In the case of a black tail only, the trophy would be considered a Dall’s sheep". So it appears there is no true line is there?

[gerrygoat]

I always thought that the Dall's were from Tagish Lake west.

[olharley guy]

I always thought that the Dall's were from Tagish Lake west.

Howdy, you are right on this, I have never seen any darker sheep in this area but I have seen a few of the white ones between Tagish and the south end, west side of Atlin Lake. Not lots but a few over the years. Later

[BCbillies]

A couple of years ago this issue came up on a thread and my response was . . . Although all the literature and B&C recognize west of Bennett Lake to be true Dall range in BC the BC Record Book contains quite a few listings for Dall's east of Bennett Lake (Tagish, Moon, Racine, etc). I believe the BC Book still recognizes Dall's basically west of Tagish but if anyone knows why they wouldn't be consistant with all the literature and the B&C I would like to know. I too would like to give it my best effort in the coming years to get my sights focussed on a full curl Dall!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The British Columbia Record book also uses "West of Bennett LK" as the "technical" boundary for Dall sheep in BC.....but as a biologist you know that boundaries are not 100% and are always changing.
The BC book uses the term "pure white sheep" (pg 24 of the latest edition....which doesn't seem to match B&C's description which can have black hairs in the tail(I don't have a B&C book to verify).

I suspect previous entries that are currently outside the recent boundaries were from previous boundaries(?) ...eg Moon Lk Racine etc. Boundaries and minimum entry scores have been changed in the past.

Stone colored sheep have been seen in Alaska for several years now. Biological boundaries are not static.

SSS

[jml11]

The missing litterature for me is the BC Book description. I just assumed they would follow Boone and Crockett boundaries as well.

SSS,

Poached from the Boone and Crockett Website, I imagine the book definition would be the same?

"Dall’s (or white) sheep range over much of Alaska, most of Yukon Territory, and the Mackenzie Mountains of Northwest Territories. Stone’s sheep occur primarily in northern British Columbia. Where the ranges of these two subspecies meet, the intergrade animals may range through a variety of dark gray shades to almost white. This intergrade was, at one time, regarded as a separate subspecies (Fannin’s sheep), but this form cannot really be defined and the idea of a separate category for such animals was rejected many years ago. After consultation with guides, knowledgeable biologists and hunters, the decision was made that any thin-horned sheep that shows any black hairs on the body is classified as a Stone’s sheep, unless only the tail is black. In the case of a black tail only, the trophy would be considered a Dall’s sheep. The area from which Fannin-type trophies are known is primarily the Pelly Mountains of the southern Yukon. But, they might be recorded from extreme northern British Columbia, and perhaps other localities in the southern Yukon"

[jml11]

Here is a photo taken from Moon Lake Outfitters website.

By the B&C definition this photo has 1 Stone's Ram and 3 Dall's Rams correct?

http://www.moonlakeoutfitters.com/images/jagdgalerie/sheep/S-rams-2.jpg

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here is a photo taken from Moon Lake Outfitters website.

By the B&C definition this photo has 1 Stone's Ram and 3 Dall's Rams correct?

http://www.moonlakeoutfitters.com/images/jagdgalerie/sheep/S-rams-2.jpg

One is obviously a Stone(fannin) but one would have to look closer at the other two. Tails are black but there might be more dark hairs mixed in there...but they look white enough for me:).

SSS

[jml11]

One is obviously a Stone(fannin) but one would have to look closer at the other two. Tails are black but there might be more dark hairs mixed in there...but they look white enough for me:).

SSS

Agreed you would have to do some "closer inspection" to see if they don't have any dark hairs if it was important to you, lots of shadows in that photo that could be hiding a light grey pelage. I find it somewhat interesting that you can technically have two B&C sheep species hanging out on the same piece of rock :shock: !

[BCrams]

I spoke to the biologist in Whitehorse and it is known that 'coloured' sheep are showing up each year in what they would term as 'traditional' dall sheep range.

The pilot we flew with last from Whitehorse also mentioned the same thing.

Essentially it is only a matter of time with the changing environment, wayward Stone's sheep and genetic mixing that 'coloured' sheep (Stone's sheep) will encroach further into traditional Dall's sheep range.

In effect, boundaries can and will change with time.

I have seen pictures from the Moon Lake country of rams that are pure white against a green backdrop, yet have grey to black tails. Yet, on our hunt last year west of Bennet Lake, the young rams we did see had pure white tails.

------
Scenario

You have three rams of equal size and equal shot opportunity. All three rams are white, but two have a white tail and the third has a grey-black tail.

You want a Dall ram. Which one do you shoot?

Personally, I know I'd be picking one of the rams with the 'white tail' because to me, its a pure dall.


Its not to say I'm being an elitist in that regard .... I'd love a ram down the road with a unique marking like a white body and black tail as much as I'd like a charcoal black ram with solid white under body / leg markings or a light ram with dark "saddle back" markings etc.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

------
Scenario

You have three rams of equal size and equal shot opportunity. All three rams are white, but two have a white tail and the third has a grey-black tail.

You want a Dall ram. Which one do you shoot?

Personally, I know I'd be picking one of the rams with the 'white tail' because to me, its a pure dall.


Its not to say I'm being an elitist in that regard .... I'd love a ram down the road with a unique marking like a white body and black tail as much as I'd like a charcoal black ram with solid white under body / leg markings or a light ram with dark "saddle back" markings etc.

But what if the one with the dark tail was bigger???:-P

We did see a ewe with stone coloration last year but she was too far away to tell if it was staining from dirt or true colored hair.

SSS

[jml11]

I spoke to the biologist in Whitehorse and it is known that 'coloured' sheep are showing up each year in what they would term as 'traditional' dall sheep range.

The pilot we flew with last from Whitehorse also mentioned the same thing.

Essentially it is only a matter of time with the changing environment, wayward Stone's sheep and genetic mixing that 'coloured' sheep (Stone's sheep) will encroach further into traditional Dall's sheep range.

In effect, boundaries can and will change with time.


Something else to blame on global warming...

Guess you better hurry up an get a white ram before they all turn grey...or you do....:mrgreen:!

[jml11]

I

Its not to say I'm being an elitist in that regard .... I'd love a ram down the road with a unique marking like a white body and black tail as much as I'd like a charcoal black ram with solid white under body / leg markings or a light ram with dark "saddle back" markings etc.

Man you have quite the "wish list", guess you better get to work and quit lolygagging in the mountains every year :wink:.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Something else to blame on global warming...

Guess you better hurry up an get a white ram before they all turn grey...or you do....:mrgreen:!

When's the last time you saw a grey red-head????:-D

SSS

[riflebuilder]

It would be fun to get a BC dall isn't most of the area they are in LEH only?

[jml11]

It would be fun to get a BC dall isn't most of the area they are in LEH only?

Nope, ALL of the area they inhabit in BC is LEH, some with poor odds and all with very low resident success rates.

[boxhitch]

Have heard of some very white sheep in 6-26.
Two or three hours with the leatherman pliers and maybe ??........
Also heard of Dall's seen off the Whitepass Railroad once upon a time.
How about south of Fantail?

the black tails are showing up more in the north Mackenzie dalls too.

[pro 111]

What would you pick if the pure white one had 35 inch horns with 12 inch bases , and the one with grey hairs on it was a 40 inch booner !!! LOL.

[jml11]

Another piece of litterature to throw into the definition.

This comes from the Grand Slam Ovis Club, for those who don't know, this is the organization that officially recognizes sheep slams. Here you can register your North American 3/4 or full slam so it would seem their definition would be rather definitive....but it is not...just complicates it more.

"If a ram has only a black tail, it is generally accepted as a Dall sheep. It is only when the dark hair appears on the body that it is considered a Fannin. Because rams with color have begun to show up quite often in traditional Dall habitat, GSCO has made the following decision: If a ram has only a small amount of black hair within the body and/or down the legs, the trophy owner can choose to call it either Fannin or Dall."

If you read more, they mention that colored sheep are becomming more common in north Alaska, Yukon and the Mckenzie Mountains of NWT, all areas which are apparently isolated from traditional Stone's habitat. Looking at some outfitter websites in the Mckenzies...and yes there are a few colored sheep in their photos...interesting.

I've come to the conclusion that it is up to hunter and personal preference if their sheep is a Dall or not. Some may want that pure white and some may be just as happy with a black-tailed white ram. Maybe you just have to get one of each then there will be no dispute!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Pure white would be nice....but who would complain about a fannin ram like this??:cool:

http://www.blackstoneoutfitters.com/images/2008sheep/BillFigger.jpg

SSS