Grizzly Bears Vancouver Sun

[olharley guy]

Howdy, quite a large article on GB hunting on the front page of the Vancouver Sun today. I will probably have a few comments later...

[olharley guy]

Howdy, I saw this article on the front page of the Vancouver Sun today and when I read it on the net I started to get a little angry.
It starts off with Gary Sheldon who from what I've read and heard from other people that he is one of the most knowlegable people about bears in B.C.
I wonder why the B.C. Gov't hasn't hired him as a full time bear consultant on bear management?
His skills and knowledge have been self taught in the wilderness and not in some university classroomwhere a lot of the professors are like conservationist and want to protect everything.
Then I get to the part where this Ian Mcallister has his say and I wonder how so many people can be so gullible and send $1000's upon $1000's of dollars to his and other similar organizations. It must be the smooth talk that they have written for them.
Again I don't know him and have never met him
but some of the articles I have read published in the newspapers are utter B.S.
Where do they get their information from?
But the B.S. baffling brains works for a lot of people who are not in the know.
A seperate news item from the other day have the Inuit people really angry wth PETA. Good!
Once again it was stated polls were taken and in the last 2 years 73-78% of B.C. people oppose bear hunting in B.C.
I am sure I could get it to read 90% if I took a poll downtown Vancouver on Robson Street with all the people who live in their ivory towers.

I wish I could post this artcle and another one for all to read bit I will still have to rant!

I have to stop and start again. Later

[olharley guy]

Howdy again Part 2

Alittle further down the article I saw a name of a guide and it made my blood boil!
This guy/jerk used to have a fish guiding camp on the Nakina River in the same area. He thought he owned the river.
Every year we would go there by helicopter for the day and have a great day fishing for Kings and rainbows, one after another. Yes and lots of GB's on the river.
One day he heard we were coming and when we rounded the bend in the river the bar was covered in tarps and ropes. Buddy toed in the river and I jumped out and got rid of all the crap while he hovered a few hundred yards away.

Now this is the clincher-when we were leaving/lifting off this nice fellow was hiding in the bush throwing 3-4 inch rocks trying to hit the tail rotor.

This could of been a bad scene with one or all four of us dead.

I invited him to come to town numerous times but no show, I think he should of lost his fish guiding licence, he even told numerous other people about the rocks, but try and prove it.

And now this creep is the official guide /outfitter for this area. What a joke!

Basically as I see it this whole thing is about money, lining the pockets of the old hippy type earth muffins who can also sweet talk the native people into believing them.

Midweek there was a half page article about the bears written by David Suzuki who I respect and believe he has done a lot for the environment but I think he is off kilter when it comes to bears.

Again we have the bear photography group talking about stopping hunting on the west coast.
One tour grossed $3,000,000 taking people to Knight Inlet in 2007.
More than all the trophy hunting licences combined?

Each bear killed is one less that tourists will pay to photograph.

Isn't there no hunting corridors where he picture people go?

This is money talking again!

All these newspaper articles quite annoy me even though I have not hunted in the last 10 years, but this year I am going at it again and neighbours, tree huggers I work with can all go to you know where.

Is there no goup on our side that has the ability and knowledge to write a retaliation to this kind of media crap, giving our side a view which would be much closer to the truth, especially on bear populations and things like that???

My rant is over, I hope you can all read this article just to see how ridiculous it is except for Sheldon. Thanks Later

[The Hermit]

1) the article equated conservation with preservation
2) no mention about the effect hunting has to instill a "fear of humans" into bears which helps to keep them out of towns and populated areas thus in effect saves more bears from destruction than we as hunters kill.
3) No references given for the public opinion polls cited... pure bullshit!

I read this as a somewhat biased piece in favor of the preservationists (60/40).

[Riverratz]

Here's the link to the full story, for those of you who feel the urge to torture yourself with this continual mindless crap.............

http://www.vancouversun.com/Technology/Trophy+hunters+line+fire/1693303/story.html

[Ike]

Typical rhetoric they put out every year.

Two things that really annoy me are that the antis are the only ones screaming for a ban on anything; you don't see hunters demanding a stop to eco-tourism bear viewing....in my mind that says a lot. Why can't there be both?

Also, there is never any mention of the potential dangers and ill-effects caused by the human habituation associated with bear viewing. Some retort that there is none, but that is BS

Finally as a resident of Bella Coola who has had direct involvement with bears and bear issues, I took offence to the comments that all the bear problems were human caused. There is a mindset that people are not part of the ecosystem and should live without any interaction with it. While some of the bears shot here were a result of poor people activities there were many incidents that had nothing to do with what people did or did not do. I guess it is easier for some to use broad brush strokes to blame humans rather than address a complex issue.

Cheers
(BTW: It is Shelton with a T not a D, very common mistake) ;)

[olharley guy]

Howdy,If Shelton reads this website, tell him I am sorry for misspelling his name. I do know it is with a "T" and not a "D" but I guess I was a little annoyed after reading all this crap again, especially when that one name was mentioned.

If you know him, maybe ask him to be a little more vocal on this subject with the media, he may sell another 50,000 copies of his books.

Although I haven't been bear hunting in a while, the hunt, chase and all the outdoor stuff that goes with it is very exciting and I would hate to see any young person just starting out to be denied this experience because of the antis being more vocal in the media.

We do have to have people who are in the know, and get the media to do some writing in our favour.

As they say the squeaky wheel gets the grease! and in a few short years they may not need anymore grease as the antis may have their way. Later

[houndogger]

I honestly think the BCWF should be trying to get Shelton as there spokesman:!:

[olharley guy]

I honestly think the BCWF should be trying to get Shelton as there spokesman:!:

My thoughts exactly, but who can talk to them and give them a little push to get things rolling before it is to late? Later

[mud-dog27]

ive emailed BCWF bout stuff like this before and asked why they arent making their/our voice heard and it was a pretty sad response cant remember what it said exactly all i know is i wasnt impressed by it

whether the papers just arent printing stuff said by BCWF or what i dont know all i know is it would be nice to see something supporting our side but its not likely with the biased newspapers and even when you do see something supporting us its some little single column 2 pages from the back

all i know is ive gotten bored with reading this crap cause its all the same garbage worded differently

[trapperdan2061]

Heres a quote from the Hunting Reg's, if you read it any one including those who take photos, hike to view, for science, yes that even means those tree huggin photo takein people need to have a Current Hunting Licence.


So maybe this should be inforced by the Province...........


"Again we have the bear photography group talking about stopping hunting on the west coast.
One tour grossed $3,000,000 taking people to Knight Inlet in 2007"


Did all these people have Valid Hunting Licence's? Think of all the money the Provinc is missing out on.......



From the Reg's


Hunt and Hunting

- includes shooting at,

attracting, searching for, chasing, pursuing, following
after or on the trail of, stalking, or lying
in wait for wildlife or attempting to do any of
those things, whether or not the wildlife is then
or subsequently wounded, killed or captured

[mud-dog27]

Heres a quote from the Hunting Reg's, if you read it any one including those who take photos, hike to view, for science, yes that even means those tree huggin photo takein people need to have a Current Hunting Licence.



So maybe this should be inforced by the Province...........


"Again we have the bear photography group talking about stopping hunting on the west coast.
One tour grossed $3,000,000 taking people to Knight Inlet in 2007"


Did all these people have Valid Hunting Licence's? Think of all the money the Provinc is missing out on.......



From the Reg's


Hunt and Hunting

- includes shooting at,

attracting, searching for, chasing, pursuing, following
after or on the trail of, stalking, or lying
in wait for wildlife or attempting to do any of
those things, whether or not the wildlife is then
or subsequently wounded, killed or captured




now thats an interesting tid bit

[houndogger]

My thoughts exactly, but who can talk to them and give them a little push to get things rolling before it is to late? Later

I think they are to caught up in trying to shut down guide outfitters. The anti's are on their way first coastal bears. Next bears province wide the cats then..............

[GoatGuy]

Fairly slanted story................. I guess conflict is what sells.

[David Heitsman]

I see there is input from the Feds, GOABC, (both corporate and locally) SCI, Raincoast and BC Res's a couple times. Pynn, the author actually is probably a hunter at heart, he just knows that controversial articles sell newspapers. I do give him credit for getting out there in the mtns and reporting from the ground up.

As mentioned the issue isn't where there are too many bears taken but whether they should be taken at all.

A colleague mentioned to me this AM that the simplest thing would be to require the meat removal on GB's thus removing the concept of trophy hunting where the whole animal is not used.

Interesting to note the stats that only 1 in 5 tags purchased is filled. Looks like 1 in 3 non-res is filled.

Also mentioned is that there is no European import ban on GB's from NWT and the NT. As I recall there is no GB hunting in NWT anyways.

Normally I write a response to the editor on these but haven't thought of anything yet that has been said dozen's of times allready.

Interesting that the Greens are putting some money where their mouth is buying these concessions. It is to no avail though if the quota is then given to residents. The net result then is still the same number of opportunities for bears being taken so I can see how this is getting complicated for the Ministry to deal with.

We'll see what happens. I suspect the Olympics will get drawn into the fray somehow again.

[40incher]

Unfortunately, the dormant guide quota is not being transferred to resident hunters. The Wildlife Branch (WB) seems to care less these days about standing up for hunters and biologically-based management. The whole Atlin area is being turned over to the greenies with their blessing.

Thye WB has done nothing to ensure Outfitter territories are not being bought out by anti-use organizations, who have no intention of harvesting bear. The WB was also fully involved in the Queen Charlotte Islands fiasco where they are supporting the retirement of the guide license and a resident black bear quota of only 4 bear/year from a population of 3,000 to 4,000.

Bear are just the icon of the day. Caribou, Stone's Sheep, Wolverine are also on the greenies agenda.

Hunters are not being well represented. The silence is deafening.

[RiverBoatFantasy]

Taku River Griz LEH for this spring.

I can easily haul 3 others up the Taku and into the Nakina. Put in your draws. If you are lucky contact me.

It is a trip and an adventure you will not soon forget.

[olharley guy]

Taku River Griz LEH for this spring.

I can easily haul 3 others up the Taku and into the Nakina. Put in your draws. If you are lucky contact me.

It is a trip and an adventure you will not soon forget.


RBF is right, been there numerous times. Go for it-maybe your last chance if we don't get someone to lobby for the hunters! Later

[huntwriter]

Howdy, I saw this article on the front page of the Vancouver Sun today and when I read it on the net I started to get a little angry.
It starts off with Gary Sheldon who from what I've read and heard from other people that he is one of the most knowlegable people about bears in B.C.
I wonder why the B.C. Gov't hasn't hired him as a full time bear consultant on bear management?
His skills and knowledge have been self taught in the wilderness and not in some university classroomwhere a lot of the professors are like conservationist and want to protect everything.

That right there is the real problem in our times of "PhD experts". Everywhere real world experience is replaced with educational experience and academic titles. One upon a time the Canadian Food Inspection Agency was run by professionals from the food industry. Today the agency is run by academic bureaucrats that is absolute mayhem.

It's the same with the Fish and Wildlife Agency. Professional biologists, or self taught ones with creditably, have to bow to academic bureaucrat opinion. I once dealt with a gentleman of that species who couldn't tell the difference between a whitetail and a mule deer if his life depended on it.

I once had a meeting with the head of the Illinois Wetland Rehabilitation Department. The women had a few fancy titles including several PhD's but other than that she had not the foggiest idea what a wetland consist of. After we were done laughing we realized what a serious problem we had at our hands with that bureaucrat.

[huntwriter]

Unfortunately, the dormant guide quota is not being transferred to resident hunters. The Wildlife Branch (WB) seems to care less these days about standing up for hunters and biologically-based management. The whole Atlin area is being turned over to the greenies with their blessing.

Thye WB has done nothing to ensure Outfitter territories are not being bought out by anti-use organizations, who have no intention of harvesting bear. The WB was also fully involved in the Queen Charlotte Islands fiasco where they are supporting the retirement of the guide license and a resident black bear quota of only 4 bear/year from a population of 3,000 to 4,000.

Bear are just the icon of the day. Caribou, Stone's Sheep, Wolverine are also on the greenies agenda.

Hunters are not being well represented. The silence is deafening.


Because they have to bow down to political opinion and career management. Talk to a biologist and what they have to put up with and it makes you hair stand up on end.

[huntwriter]

I see there is input from the Feds, GOABC, (both corporate and locally) SCI, Raincoast and BC Res's a couple times. Pynn, the author actually is probably a hunter at heart, he just knows that controversial articles sell newspapers.

From experience with city newspapers I can assure you that it is more about what the editor wants his readers to read than a writer wanting to create controversial articles. I had several pro-hunting articles turned down unless I would be willing to put an anti hunting slant to it toward the end of the article.

Why toward the end of the article? Because it's the closing part the average reader remembers from an article.

[Johnnybear]

Wow I just read the whole article online from the link provided. It amazes me the stuff the media comes up with. The wording is so provocative and is laid out in such a way as to twist common folks minds it really is bewildering. That guide that was interviewed should be shot with a ball of his own you know what:evil:.

[GoatGuy]

I see there is input from the Feds, GOABC, (both corporate and locally) SCI, Raincoast and BC Res's a couple times. Pynn, the author actually is probably a hunter at heart, he just knows that controversial articles sell newspapers. I do give him credit for getting out there in the mtns and reporting from the ground up.

As mentioned the issue isn't where there are too many bears taken but whether they should be taken at all.

A colleague mentioned to me this AM that the simplest thing would be to require the meat removal on GB's thus removing the concept of trophy hunting where the whole animal is not used.

Interesting to note the stats that only 1 in 5 tags purchased is filled. Looks like 1 in 3 non-res is filled.

Also mentioned is that there is no European import ban on GB's from NWT and the NT. As I recall there is no GB hunting in NWT anyways.

Normally I write a response to the editor on these but haven't thought of anything yet that has been said dozen's of times allready.

Interesting that the Greens are putting some money where their mouth is buying these concessions. It is to no avail though if the quota is then given to residents. The net result then is still the same number of opportunities for bears being taken so I can see how this is getting complicated for the Ministry to deal with.

We'll see what happens. I suspect the Olympics will get drawn into the fray somehow again.

The 'grizzly bear' issue is not about grizzly bears or even bears, it boils down to hunting in general. Anytime the humane society gets involved you can count on this being about hunting and using animals.

The requirement to take the meat out might help a tiny bit, but the meat likely still won't be used by many (non-res in particular) and if it's anything like black bear hunting (it is) it won't solve the problem (see QCI and "Great Bear Rainforest").

Hunters are going to have to be heard on this one.

This extends way beyond grizzly bear hunting. How will society ever be able to come to terms with 'predator management' if they can't come to terms with bear hunting?

Are we going to pack wolf/coyote and gopher meat out soon or close the season on them?

It seems like a stretch but a bag limit of less than 5 and meat requirements for black bears was unheard of 40 years ago as was LEH for grizzly bears.

[GoatGuy]

That right there is the real problem in our times of "PhD experts". Everywhere real world experience is replaced with educational experience and academic titles. One upon a time the Canadian Food Inspection Agency was run by professionals from the food industry. Today the agency is run by academic bureaucrats that is absolute mayhem.

It's the same with the Fish and Wildlife Agency. Professional biologists, or self taught ones with creditably, have to bow to academic bureaucrat opinion. I once dealt with a gentleman of that species who couldn't tell the difference between a whitetail and a mule deer if his life depended on it.

I once had a meeting with the head of the Illinois Wetland Rehabilitation Department. The women had a few fancy titles including several PhD's but other than that she had not the foggiest idea what a wetland consist of. After we were done laughing we realized what a serious problem we had at our hands with that bureaucrat.

There is in fact a fair bit of respect for Shelton in the MoE/MoF - that includes with the grizzly guys.

The problem is with reporters twisting and distorting the facts. Inevitably reporters are only allowed to communicate with interviewees electronically and it has to go through all the 'right channels' before it can be approved. Integrity isn't a word that comes to mind when I think about some reporters.....:lol:

[GoatGuy]

I guess you could compare this (the 'interview'):
__________________________________________________ _________

I started accompanying my father and grandfather on hunts before I turned 10. I wrote my CORE exam days after I turned 10 and obtained my hunting license shortly thereafter. My father was my principal mentor, the most common way hunters are recruited, although I had a strong social support group which includes family friends and relatives who I grew up hunting, fishing, hiking and camping with as well.

Grizzly Hunting on a Personal Level

I’ve hunted grizzly for quite a few years – the motivations are the same as most other species. Same as black bear we do eat the meat although whether this is representative of all grizzly bear hunters I do not know. I don’t have any grizzly meat right now otherwise I’d offer you some. We often have black and grizzly bear meat at the BCWF convention
and at the affiliated club fundraisers. You should attend one if you have the chance. Bear meat makes great smokies and pepperoni.

Generally grizzly bear hunting is part of another hunt. In the spring we often fish, camp and hunt black bears, turkeys and grizzly bears if someone gets a limited entry hunting authorizations as grizzly bear hunting is strictly controlled. Even if someone doesn’t get a draw we go hunting for black bears or turkeys anyways. The spring trip is a social gathering and several friends who don’t hunt or fish come along and enjoy the outdoors
with us. In the fall we’re often moose/sheep/deer or goat hunting as well and grizzly bear hunting often makes up a part of the hunt.

I hunt grizzly bear in the spring because I enjoy being outside and with nature – it’s my favorite time of the year. The mountains are often a beautiful place in spring: the days get longer, the leaves start to sprout and the overcast conditions we’re used to turn into days of warm sunshine. The woods are often very active as the birds return and ungulates give birth. Hunting for bears usually entails long arduous days on foot or with
snowshoes in rugged terrain. Sometimes our non-hunting friends come, sometimes they don’t – it’s hard work. Quite often we’re trudging through snow that is 10 feet deep to get to spots where bears might be.

I enjoy being outside watching all kinds of animals (moose, caribou, deer, goat, elk, bear,porcupine and sometimes wolverine as well). We’ve seen some exceptional sights over the years including some huge snowslides that make the earth shake for miles. A profound connection to the wilderness is generated spending time in these remote locations – moments one never forgets. Most years we often see several grizzly bears and video tape them but we don’t actually harvest a grizzly bear. There is much responsibility in hunting which includes ensuring the animal is correctly identified and
that the animal can be harvested humanely. To make all those things come together in a challenging environment is very difficult. Generally we simply enjoy the hunt, camaraderie and interacting with nature without harvesting a grizzly. Harvesting any animal is but one small part of an immense experience - it does not define a hunter.

The future of grizzly bears and hunting on a high level

Grizzly bear hunting is sustainable in BC. In fact the current harvest rates used ensure a growing population. A healthy and huntable grizzly bear population is an indicator of a healthy and connected habitat; as a conservationist first and hunter second I recognize that. Without a healthy and connected habitat grizzly bear populations suffer. This results in little to no hunting opportunity but more importantly very few grizzly bears.

On a personal level I believe habitat fragmentation and destruction is my greatest fear for the future of grizzly bears. Grizzly bears need huge tracks of relatively undisturbed and interconnected habitat to not only survive but to ensure gene transfer. Cities, ski hills, 4 lane highways and wildlife fences are what threaten the future of grizzly bears. It is my fear that continued rapid growth in British Columbia will further threaten and isolate grizzly bear populations.

Without grizzly bear hunting it is my fear that grizzlies will loose their value, become habituated and be turned into pests. Due to a bad reputation up to about the early 70s grizzlies were considered vermin and were essentially killed on sight. It took some very brave hunters and wildlife biologists to turn that around, recognizing that grizzly bears are an integral part of a healthy ecosystem, adding value and protection to grizzly bears.

I believe up to $7 million has been invested in the future of the grizzly bears in BC, many of those dollars coming right out of hunting license surcharges from the Habitat Conservation Trust Fund. As a hunter I am proud to make that contribution. Often that money is spent in areas where there is no grizzly bear hunting and rightly so. These populations are often the most at risk. Hunters are not only concerned about grizzly bear hunting but the future of grizzly bears in BC. As a result of the inventory money hunters have supported and fought for access closures to ensure healthy, undisturbed and connected habitat, the key to survival for grizzly bears.

In National Parks, where no hunting is allowed, grizzly bear mortality is extremely high near towns because animals become habituated to people so quickly. Relocation has not proved overly successful and the effects of habituation results in the destruction of the bear and sometimes harm to human life. This is a waste! I have seen this on my own hunting and hiking trips haven been stalked and followed to less than 30 yards by habituated bears in the Okanagan where there is currently no grizzly bear hunting. The bears have little to no fear of people. People leaving garbage, messy campsites and wanting to get close to bears all contribute to this problem – it’s really a lack of education and understanding I suppose.


As I have said my biggest fear for grizzly bears and several other species in BC is that their habitat is being paved and fenced. Grizzly bears don’t do well in big cities or malls – I can’t blame them, neither do I. British Columbia is one of the few remaining gems in the world where our ecological diversity is unmatched. It pains me to see high 4 lane highways, wildlife fences and ski hills built in places where grizzly bears used to roam. This is the biggest problem that British Columbians need to deal with not only for grizzly bears but several other at risk species and their habitat.

Most importantly people need to protect grizzly bear habitat for future generations of British Columbians to enjoy. People protect only what they can see.

__________________________________________________ ________


to this:
__________________________________________________ ___________

Jesse Zeman, a 28-year-old commercial pilot from the Okanagan, has been hunting since age 10 and argues that bear hunting is arduous work that inevitably leads to a rewarding wilderness experience. It's not all about the kill, he says, adding that human encroachment on bear habitat is far more damaging than the numbers shot by hunters each year.


"Cities, ski hills, four-lane highways and wildlife fences are what threaten the future of grizzly bears. It is my fear that continued rapid growth in British Columbia will further threaten and isolate grizzly bear populations."
__________________________________________________ ___________

:roll::roll::roll:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Excellent original letter, GG!!:cool: But apparently "TOO GOOD" as I'm sure it didn't portray grizzly hunters and a grizzly hunt in a way "THEY" wanted:roll:.

Keep that letter on file and hopefully someone will print it in it's original form. But, somehow, I bet the media that does print it won't have a "604" area code:roll:.

SSS

[boxhitch]

GG, Ouch! An excise like that hurts.
Good original, maybe send in as a rebuttal ?
And send it to Springer for the OK news ?

[boxhitch]

Hunters have to stick together on this. Hunting is a sustainable lifestyle choice, its proven over the years. No matter whether the prey is GBears or squirrels, or meat for the freezer. Hunting is the whole picture, to loose one fraction will hurt.

[huntwriter]

Hunters have to stick together on this. Hunting is a sustainable lifestyle choice, its proven over the years. No matter whether the prey is GBears or squirrels, or meat for the freezer. Hunting is the whole picture, to loose one fraction will hurt.

That right there are very wise words. Loose one segment and over time we will loose all of it. The antis chip methodically away on our hunting heritage. Unlike the hunters and our organizations, they have a long term plan and strategy.

[Tardigrade]

Heres a quote from the Hunting Reg's, if you read it any one including those who take photos, hike to view, for science, yes that even means those tree huggin photo takein people need to have a Current Hunting Licence.



So maybe this should be inforced by the Province...........


"Again we have the bear photography group talking about stopping hunting on the west coast.
One tour grossed $3,000,000 taking people to Knight Inlet in 2007"


Did all these people have Valid Hunting Licence's? Think of all the money the Provinc is missing out on.......



From the Reg's


Hunt and Hunting

- includes shooting at,


attracting, searching for, chasing, pursuing, following

after or on the trail of, stalking, or lying
in wait for wildlife or attempting to do any of
those things, whether or not the wildlife is then



or subsequently wounded, killed or captured


B.S., you left off the last part of that definition which is:


(a) with intention to capture the wildlife, or
(b) while in possession of a firearm or other
weapon.

You do NOT need a hunting licence to "take photos, hike to view, for science", unless you intend to capture or have a firearm/other weapon in your possession.

[boxhitch]

That right there are very wise words. Loose one segment and over time we will loose all of it. The antis chip methodically away on our hunting heritage. Unlike the hunters and our organizations, they have a long term plan and strategy.
Everyone else parades around with 'their' lifestyle choice on display, hunters should be proud too.
Hunting is a lifestyle. And with harvest rates what they are, it is certainly sustainable.
Go back further, to the seven days of creation. On the seventh day, man was created to utilize and exploit all other creations, as he saw fit. I bet Eve's first recipe was for gravy.

[gr8d8b8]

Instead of squawking here, lets pull this together and send all this info to the province paper, they need it the granola *******s!:biggrin:

[Phreddy]

The thing that makes my blood boil is the most vocal anti's seem to be urban armchair warriors who wouldn't know a grizzley from a snowshoe hare, and have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. These are the same chaps who want to stuff places like Manning Park with Griz in the name of restoring them to their traditional habitat. I think a good place to start restoring griz to the North Shore and the Greater Vancouver area in general. That might get their attention.