Fires in wintering ranges

[ghost]

I have a question regarding forest fires in wintering grounds for deer mouse etc.Do those animals migrate naturally to those areas,then wander around looking for feed. Or do they have a secondary area that know to go too.

[6616]

I have a question regarding forest fires in wintering grounds for deer mouse etc.Do those animals migrate naturally to those areas,then wander around looking for feed. Or do they have a secondary area that know to go too.

A late fall fire on ungulate winter ranges has the potential to be quite devastating to the animals that use the area in the winter. Naturally they will attempt to move around searching for forage and will potentially starve to death if they can't find any.

I would guess the implications would be worse for browsing species if the broswe is wiped out, but graze areas can green up pretty quick after a fire, even in the fall. A spring or summer fire usually allows lots of growing season left to allow a recovery in forage before fall.

Maybe Rocksteady will post on this thread, fire ecology is his field of expertise.

[rocksteady]

Maybe Rocksteady will post on this thread, fire ecology is his field of expertise.

Nothing like putting me on the spot there Andy !!!

If a winter range is damaged by fire (be it browse or grass) the animals will wander til they find what they need. I have seen this before in mountain goat habitat. 2 identical peaks, say 1 km apart, goats on one , not on the other..Why??? Cause they live on point A and don't need to move to get everything they need. SHould peak A burn, they would migrate to point B and assume that as their prime territory..

The spring burn is the best way to regenerate critical winter range habitat....BUT it has to be done carefully....Too hot of a fire and you can cook the grasses root system, as well as a lot of the browse species. Too slow of a fire and the same issue...Things greened up a little too much, you have basically took the grass out of this years forage. It may not grow back.....The ER (Ecosystem Restoration Program) keys in on this, that is why we are conducting ER burns usually low elevation, in the valley bottom. Yes it is tenured for cattle, but it also supports winter forage for the ungulates.

As a sidebar, there was a study done in the US (See if I can find a link) that showed up to a certain size of fire/burn there would not be a huge increase in ungulate use or predators (say 200 ha maybe), however once you were over the threshold the influx to the area was pretty extreme and along with the ungulates, came the predators..


But back to the original concern here. The fires that are happening right now, if they do get the June rains like we usually get, the grasses for sure will be somewhat regrown y winter forage time. THe browse, probably not..Within a year or 2 you will see an ingrowth of pioneer species (fireweed) along with some herbaceous (Kinikinick) and eventually browse (Aspen)...I find that some of the best honey holes for critters are fires in the 8 to 15 year old range.....Lts of food and usually think enough cover to make the animal not too flighty...

Late season fires, like 2003 where they burned til November, will set back the area more heavily. It still will come back, with pioneer species etc, it will just be about 1 year, or growing season behind.


If you have anymore questions, just fire (no pun intended) away.....And please make sure your campfires are ALWAYS fully extinguished...

[Piperdown]

Good stuff Rocksteady, I also like you SRV tribute, saw him in the Orpheum (spelling) about 8 months before he died, unbelievable show.

[rocksteady]

Good stuff Rocksteady, I also like you SRV tribute, saw him in the Orpheum (spelling) about 8 months before he died, unbelievable show.

Almost 20 years after his death and no one has stepped up to replace him....He was unique and can't be copied....

[6616]

Nothing like putting me on the spot there Andy !!!

If a winter range is damaged by fire (be it browse or grass) the animals will wander til they find what they need. I have seen this before in mountain goat habitat. 2 identical peaks, say 1 km apart, goats on one , not on the other..Why??? Cause they live on point A and don't need to move to get everything they need. SHould peak A burn, they would migrate to point B and assume that as their prime territory..

The spring burn is the best way to regenerate critical winter range habitat....BUT it has to be done carefully....Too hot of a fire and you can cook the grasses root system, as well as a lot of the browse species. Too slow of a fire and the same issue...Things greened up a little too much, you have basically took the grass out of this years forage. It may not grow back.....The ER (Ecosystem Restoration Program) keys in on this, that is why we are conducting ER burns usually low elevation, in the valley bottom. Yes it is tenured for cattle, but it also supports winter forage for the ungulates.

As a sidebar, there was a study done in the US (See if I can find a link) that showed up to a certain size of fire/burn there would not be a huge increase in ungulate use or predators (say 200 ha maybe), however once you were over the threshold the influx to the area was pretty extreme and along with the ungulates, came the predators..


But back to the original concern here. The fires that are happening right now, if they do get the June rains like we usually get, the grasses for sure will be somewhat regrown y winter forage time. THe browse, probably not..Within a year or 2 you will see an ingrowth of pioneer species (fireweed) along with some herbaceous (Kinikinick) and eventually browse (Aspen)...I find that some of the best honey holes for critters are fires in the 8 to 15 year old range.....Lts of food and usually think enough cover to make the animal not too flighty...

Late season fires, like 2003 where they burned til November, will set back the area more heavily. It still will come back, with pioneer species etc, it will just be about 1 year, or growing season behind.


If you have anymore questions, just fire (no pun intended) away.....And please make sure your campfires are ALWAYS fully extinguished...

Very informative post Mike, thanks.

[rocksteady]

Lillooet (Tyaughton Lake) June 4th 10:30 AM....KICKIN SOME MAJOR ASH>>>>
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/rocksteadyrifle/other/0862.jpg

[rocksteady]

I have a question regarding forest fires in wintering grounds for deer mouse etc.Do those animals migrate naturally to those areas,then wander around looking for feed. Or do they have a secondary area that know to go too.


When I glanced at this first thing this morning, I had to scratch my head and think "Why would a big game hunter be worried about a friggin deer mouse????":eek:

Later I looked at it and understood the typo......Unless you really are worried about the deer mouse....If so, sorry, can't help you with that...;-)

[CT.45]

I have a question regarding forest fires in wintering grounds for deer mouse etc.Do those animals migrate naturally to those areas,then wander around looking for feed. Or do they have a secondary area that know to go too.

The deer mice around here like to come into my office in the winter to look for food, and the spring too. I trap 4-10 of them each season. Burning to eliminate their food sources and force them to relocate would not make sense. I would not have a workplace to have mice issues in.
I have a cat at home and have no mice. Coincidence?

[rocksteady]

The deer mice around here like to come into my office in the winter to look for food, and the spring too. I trap 4-10 of them each season. Burning to eliminate their food sources and force them to relocate would not make sense. I would not have a workplace to have mice issues in.
I have a cat at home and have no mice. Coincidence?

This is all just for fun CT.45....

There we go...We now have an official "deer mouse expert":lol::lol:....All future discussions regarding deer mouses should be sent to CT.45....

Do you have a QDM type program for the meeses???? (That's quality Deer Management for those who do not know, big deal in the US..Usually means management for big racks, not big populations)

So where are the meeses in the summer range??? Is that next to your office or do they do a long migration like caribou, say maybe from across the street???:eek:

Have you seen any of those Whitetail Deer Mouse - Mule Deer Mouse hybrids yet??? I hear there is a lot of them East of PG;)

[CT.45]

Fun, what is that. I was being totally serious...... :)

[ghost]

Sorry about the typo error.Thanks for the answer.

[moosinaround]

The deer mice around here like to come into my office in the winter to look for food, and the spring too. I trap 4-10 of them each season. Burning to eliminate their food sources and force them to relocate would not make sense. I would not have a workplace to have mice issues in.
I have a cat at home and have no mice. Coincidence?
That's some funny shit there Ct.45!! I totally got where you were going!! Excellent! Moosin

[rocksteady]

Sorry about the typo error.Thanks for the answer.

Not a big deal with the typo, just shows so off topic we can get arounrd here:twisted::confused:

I see you only have 8 posts so far, so welcome to the asylum.....

[bad arrow]

A fire in a wintering area is the best thing that can happen, after a couple of years the feed is top quality stuff.

[doubled]

A fire in a wintering area is the best thing that can happen, after a couple of years the feed is top quality stuff.


I agree. I grew up in Barriere and when I came back there to visit my parents, I was devastated to see the damage caused by the McLure fire earlier. I thought to myself how could anything survive this?? It looked like a nuclear bomb went off. Next year though, the numbers of healthy mule deer were unreal and it has been like a game farm ever since.

[6616]

A fire in a wintering area is the best thing that can happen, after a couple of years the feed is top quality stuff.

Absolutlely true, but the fall of the year of the initial fire can be tough as a lot of the winter forage has been destroyed. In subsequent years things just get better and better and carrying capacity and forage quality is greatly enhanced. That's why we do ER burns.

[6616]

I agree. I grew up in Barriere and when I came back there to visit my parents, I was devastated to see the damage caused by the McLure fire earlier. I thought to myself how could anything survive this?? It looked like a nuclear bomb went off. Next year though, the numbers of healthy mule deer were unreal and it has been like a game farm ever since.

I had a guy from Kelowna phone me in 2003 who deplored the fact that the OK Mt Park was destroyed and the elk were screwed. I suggested to him that in a couple years they would have more elk then ever before in the Park. I'll bet the farm that's the case right now.

[bighornbob]

I have a question regarding forest fires in wintering grounds for deer mouse etc.Do those animals migrate naturally to those areas,then wander around looking for feed. Or do they have a secondary area that know to go too.

I dont think a deer mouse migrates too far so I doubt he has a wintering grounds. What would be the home range of a deer mouse 50 square meters. I doubt there could be that much difference in the snow in that area.:biggrin::biggrin:

BHB

[6616]

Lillooet (Tyaughton Lake) June 4th 10:30 AM....KICKIN SOME MAJOR ASH>>>>
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/rocksteadyrifle/other/0862.jpg

A real ripper. Lots of good habitat under creation.

[GoatGuy]

I had a guy from Kelowna phone me in 2003 who deplored the fact that the OK Mt Park was destroyed and the elk were screwed. I suggested to him that in a couple years they would have more elk then ever before in the Park. I'll bet the farm that's the case right now.
One thing that's been really surprising is how the moose have taken off. Hanging around in the rocks where you'd expect to see goats or sheep?????

[GoatGuy]

If a winter range is damaged by fire (be it browse or grass) the animals will wander til they find what they need. I have seen this before in mountain goat habitat. 2 identical peaks, say 1 km apart, goats on one , not on the other..Why??? Cause they live on point A and don't need to move to get everything they need. SHould peak A burn, they would migrate to point B and assume that as their prime territory..

Goats are also very poor colonizers. One of the dangers with over-harvest.

[ghost]

deer that summer in the alpine dont all winter in the same area. will the deer that winter in a fire damadged area follow deer to other winter ranges in the following years until their original wintering grounds grow back?

[rocksteady]

Yep...They will go where the food and cover are suitable..

[dino]

hey russle their not all going to go to the gang ranch now so dont get fooled into thinking that. Were going to CLEARWATER to hike some timber. Im tired of that country along the fraser.

[6616]

deer that summer in the alpine dont all winter in the same area. will the deer that winter in a fire damadged area follow deer to other winter ranges in the following years until their original wintering grounds grow back?

Remember burned areas are usually only poor for one winter and then often become better then they were before if there wasn't any severe soil damage, etc.

I think that in an area like the Rocky Mountain Trench where snow depth is not usually a factor there is ample opportunity for animals to move up and down the Trench until they find food. Displaced critters occupying adjacent ranges could cause over use or ag land depredation to increase in that location because most winter ranges in the Trench are fully occupied. We have seen this effect in the Trench already, not due to fires, but due to over grazed areas like Pickering Hills that no longer support the elk and deer they once could, and now the adjactent areas like Mause Creek are now being over-run and suffering severe ag land depredation.

I think most animals will follow their normal migration routes and then disperse once they are on the winter range to find forage, and it may be in different places in different years. There are many factors besides fire that can effect the quality of winter ranges from year to year. The quality pockets of habitat with the highest animal density change and vary over time and animals just adapt. In the Rocky Mountain Trench for example, the entire Trench is almost one big continuous winter range with little to prevent animals from moving around except in exceptionally high snow pack years.

I think in areas where deep snow and yarding is prevalent moose and deer are in real bad trouble when there's insufficient forage which runs out halfway through the winter when there's no longer any opportunity to move. In these cases no forage at all might be better then an isufficient amount as that will get the animals moving away from those areas to better areas before the snow depth limits their movement.

[bad arrow]

Almost immediatly, the land begins to regenerate and create more nutitionist food for game and man alike, I like to hunt in or near a recently burned area because I know the game is there, thats the problem with alot of the wintering area's of bc, it simply need's periodic fire to stay healthy, so it can support more game, about every 100 years in a pine bush.