Let's put a stop to the slanted News on "Trophy Hunting"

[duckhunt]

I would think all members on the hunting B.C. forum are sick of hearing this slanted news about trophy hunting, why should we sit back and listen to these lies we should really do something about this. It is better to go down fighting than sitting and letting this go on, I know this seems like a fight we cannot win but we have the truth on our side. we should really all stand together and fight this, we have to go farther than writing some letters we have to take this to the news, get help from SCI and other organizations. we shouldn't have to deal with this because we donate our money to the conservation of wildlife, besides i haven't heard of any granola munchers donating money to conservation. I am in if all of you are.

[hannibal]

definitely something the BCWF should address publicly.

[newhunterette]

where do I sign up?

[duckhunt]

if you agree with this you have signed up

[duckhunt]

definitely something the BCWF should address publicly.

I think we should bring this to them to show that hunters are serious about this issue.

[David Heitsman]

Good luck with any help from the BCWF. They do not support trophy hunting in British Columbia and in fact oppose it on most fronts.

The GOABC soon is unveiling their "Residents for Quality" membership which will be set up for BC residents who make trophy hunting their priority. I hope it provides a much needed voice for the trophy hunters of our province.

[6616]

The BCWF does not oppose trophy hunting at all, to say that is bordering on the ridiculous, everyone hunts for their own reasons and that's OK with the BCWF. Many BCWF members are trophy hunters. The BCWF supports recruitment/retention as a higher priority, and that's all there really is to it. That means managing game species for quantity as a higher prioritiy then quality, to create morre hunting opportunities for the majority of hunters (who are meat hunters) and to encourage a higher hunter participation level.

The BCWF does not support trophy management of game species if it restricts resident hunter participation levels and compromises the recruitment/retention objective.

Quality hunting, by the GOABC definition means less crowding, less competition from resident hunters, a lower presence of resident hunters in the field, guides simply do not like to run into resident hunters when they have a client out, and all the above flies directly in the face of recruitment/retention.

GOABC, in their economic viability submission to government, has openly stated they oppose the resident hunter recruitment/retention program, they've openly stated they oppose all immature bull moose seasons, they've openly stated they want more species managed for trophy quality and work steadily for more species to be on LEH. All the above equates to fewer resident hunters and a lower presence of resident hunters in the bush. This all in the name of "quality hunting" which hurts recruitment/retention potential. How can the BCWF logically support this when 95% of hunters are meat hunters and just want a chance to go hunting, not just a chance to apply for a LEH. "I'm sorry you application is unsuccessful" letters from MOE do not fill the freezer.

This is one area of game management where BCWF and GOABC philosophies will never come into agreement as long as GOABC remains on this "quality hunting" campaign and the BCWF remains on their recruitment/retention campaign.

So David, you can blame the BCWF for the rift between the BCWF and the GOABC if you want, but the truth is the GOABC is equally responsible, and any resident hunter that supports the GOABC "quality hunting" philosophy is in the end decreasing his own opportunity to actually get out and go hunting.

[Deadshot]

and any resident hunter that supports the GOABC "quality hunting" philosophy is in the end decreasing his own opportunity to actually get out and go hunting.
Agree 100% on that one.
Why should residents become members for quality?:confused:
The quality is there, some just want it handed to them I guess.
Paying clients comes to mind.$$$$$

[fowl language]

well spoken 6616 i echo your sediments exactly,as guide outfitters are trying to get a bigger portion of the pie,that can only come from the residente share and would only harm the resients by supporting the g.\o. david i urge you to research the facts and reconsider you choices as i believe our only hope to defend this is a united front led by the bcwf.....fowl

[BCrams]

The GOABC soon is unveiling their "Residents for Quality" membership which will be set up for BC residents who make trophy hunting their priority. I hope it provides a much needed voice for the trophy hunters of our province.

David,

Many of us already know you're in the back pockets of guide outfitters and you are a proponent of Limited Entry Hunting (LEH) for mule deer as one example.

I think its pretty funny each year you spout off about no big deer in the Chilcotin and start claiming there are no big bucks around. Truth is, you just don't have what it takes to find one.

6616 - David, is a big proponent of LEH for deer in the Chilcotin and he's not worried about getting the draw or not because he'll just hire a GO to get his deer tag each year while all the average joes out there are sitting on the side lines waiting for that so called "trophy draw".

As for the "resident" membership for quality hunting ...... it is utter bullshit and clearly you've been in talks with the GO yourself. I'd like to see the initial member list and I'll bet most will be tied to the Guide Outfitter business in one form or another.

The "quality hunt" has nothing to do with the majority of resident hunters and "everything" to do with less residents in the woods pursueing game with the idea bigger animals will be out there for their clients.

[BCrams]

David:

What is 'quality'?

Tell everyone on here what it is.

Then tell everyone what the GO's want to do to get that 'quality'.


Even resident trophy hunters don't realize the implications of this. They trophy hunt every year and to be disillusioned into signing up thinking it will get better for them.

Fact, what they don't know is the LEH, fewer tags, more restrictions etc .... they'll realize their 'trophy hunting' they did every year turns into a maybe once in a lifetime hunt or every 10 years hunt.

And the WORST - the average resident hunter gets shafted even further when we should be recruiting more hunters, putting out more seasons, lifting restrictions etc........

If you don't like what we have in BC, why don't you just take your money and go hire a guide in the States to take you mule deer hunting. (it seems to be the only way you can kill a buck or any animal for that matter) I hear their 'trophy' seasons are at the expense of their own residents.

[dana]

David,
Now that is funny. The GOABC trying to get resident trophy hunters signed up so they they can F*** them up the A$$!! Why in the hell would I give up killing a 200 incher every year so I can do it every 10 years???? WTF kind of logic is that. You obviously can't get er done on your own. There are many many of us that can and will not stand in line to loose that because of the greed of the GOABC. Funny thing is, if the GOABC actually got off their asses and Hunted, they too can have the quality that dana's crew kills. The quality is there, you just need to be good enough to find it and kill it. The GOABC has proven they are not good enough to get er done consistantly. A bunch of weekend warriors kick their asses every year. Sad really. You would think that if you made a living off of hunting, you would actually get up in the morning and go to work instead of sleeping in???

[Gateholio]

Just a quick reminder to keep it civil, folks....

Thanks

[Andy83]

I agree. Nothing wrong with a nice trophy rack but the meat should come first. Big antlers and horns are a bonus.

[Deadshot]

This "Residents For Quality" idea just goes to show that the G/O's DO in fact have an agenda in the works.
As Fowl said, at the expense of residents.

So much for the "United We Stand" B.S.

[dana]

This is an example of what every BC resident can have on a yearly basis in almost every Region of BC if they put in the effort. Hell, if the GOABC got off their asses and hunted, they could have this too. But, no! the GOABC wants to restrict resident hunters and want to put muley bucks on LEH. Do you think that is going to help them kill monsters like me and my buddies? Hell NO! Until they learn how to hunt trophy muleys, their clients will still be shooting 140-160 class DINKS! They are their worst enemies. They don't do their homework like the outfitters south of the border and then they let their clients kill RATS. Until they put some serious effort in, they will never see the $$ that Trophy Muleys can bring them. To think they could be doing what dana's crew does right now, unlimited. What kind of business sense they have eh? Restrict muleys to LEH and then be on alllocation. Damn, I'd be pissed at the GOABC if I was a guide/outfitter. Right now an outfitter can sell unlimited hunts, if they go LEH they will only get a certain number of allocations. Smart eh?

So David, tell me, why I should sign up for the GOABC to screw me even further?

As for resident Trophy hunters, this is what we have right now. Why would we want to only hunt once in every 10 years if we are lucky to acheive what we have once every year????

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/NOV17031a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/08630024.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/CanoeBuck.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/03NT5.jpg

[dana]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/IMG_6909.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/File0015.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/IMG_2903.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/Matts183typical.jpg

[leadpillproductions]

i agree you have to get out and look for something nice , you have to pass up the babies to get a grampa buck

[dana]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/buck3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/bucklineup1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Hunting%20Pics/IMG_0376_sm.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/BCBOY/Muley%20Pics/215Monster.jpg

[Fisher-Dude]

I love that pic of Russell's buck - just shows you how a 12 year old can get 'er done while Heitsman can't get his lazy ass off his mule to find one. Classic!! :razz:

I've never had much success shooting a real monster mule deer, but my first priority is getting some steaks and roasts in my freezer. I've got a dandy book whitetail and a book elk, so I've had some good success there, and got them because the OPPORTUNITY to hunt was open to me with a GOS. Ultimately, having as liberal a season as possible and harvesting animals across all age and sex classes has shown to produce the best hunting for all categories of hunters, trophy hunters included.

Heitsman has partaken of the GOABC Koolaid and thinks that he will shoot a bigger deer if there are fewer hunters in the bush - WRONG! He is being used by the GOABC to reduce the number of hunters in the bush so they can sell "quality hunts" to their clients. He's a bit too dense to figure this out though, and in his ego-driven haste and greed to match Dana's crew, he's pushing an agenda that will ultimately bite him in the ass. He's just not smart enough to grasp what they are doing to/with him.

Heitsman whines about seeing other hunters - well David, without those other hunters, you wouldn't be hunting AT ALL.

[GoatGuy]

The GOABC soon is unveiling their "Residents for Quality" membership which will be set up for BC residents who make trophy hunting their priority. I hope it provides a much needed voice for the trophy hunters of our province.

Hope you like LEH - that's the push for all species and that's what 'quality of hunt' means to GOABC.

Guess you can keep buying guided sheep hunts because you'll be hard pressed to get an LEH so you can go sheep hunting in BC. That's the push from GOABC.


The part that people don't think about is with 200,000 hunters grizzly bears wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue. As resident hunter numbers fall the coattails that trophy hunters and outfitters have been riding keep getting shorter and shorter. GOABC are going to run themselves right out of business in this Province with this kind of garbage. They're already off to a good start.


Hope you enjoy sitting at your mailbox waiting for a draw.

Keep up the good work - this is another big step in killing off hunting in BC.

[6616]

Right now an outfitter can sell unlimited hunts, if they go LEH they will only get a certain number of allocations. Smart eh?


In spite of the above it would be a huge advantage for outfitters to get mulie bucks on LEH. They don't need unlimited tags, they can't sell mule deer hunts as a stand alone hunt anyway. Remember what happened when moose went on LEH. In the Kootenay's resident moose hunter numbers dropped from 2500 to 450 or there abouts.

With mule deer on LEH the big advantage for outfitters is there will only be few hundred residents out there instead of thousands bothering them and spoiling their quality hunt and "throwing beer cans all over the place" (not my quote).

According to MOE policy they would start off with an allocation of 25% of the AAH, more then they'd ever need or be able to sell. Pretty much still the same as unlimited but with the advantage there'd be no residents around.

And us residents,,,well we'd get to go buck hunting every 5 to 15 years depending where you draw, with maybe the odd doe tag thrown in every year or two. Pretty exiting eh....????

Great bucks Dana, nice to see those pictures again.

[born2hunt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Heitsman http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=457048#post457048)
The GOABC soon is unveiling their "Residents for Quality" membership which will be set up for BC residents who make trophy hunting their priority. I hope it provides a much needed voice for the trophy hunters of our province.

What a line of friggin bullshit in my eye's, whatta bout us ? "The average joe"?

[GoatGuy]

What a line of friggin bullshit in my eye's, whatta bout us ? "The average joe"?

You can put in for a LEH to go hunting. If you're lucky you'll get drawn.

[bridger]

Good luck with any help from the BCWF. They do not support trophy hunting in British Columbia and in fact oppose it on most fronts.

The GOABC soon is unveiling their "Residents for Quality" membership which will be set up for BC residents who make trophy hunting their priority. I hope it provides a much needed voice for the trophy hunters of our province.


and just when I thought that after 35 years dealing with the goabc on allocation and hunting regulations issues I had heard it all! they are now going to promote resident trophy hunting. I take real exception to your comments. what you may not know (perhaps you do and are going along for the ride) is that the goabc's idea of quality trophy hunting is to put residents on leh across the province for all species. this is just a ploy to get resident hunters split on the issue instead of banding together and promote hunting in general. I have been a serious "trophy" sheep hunter a lot longer than you have and I want to keep those same opportunities that I have enjoyed open for residents and non residents as well. I am also a moose hunter that likes to have a freezer full of meat as well. The BCWF is the only organization standing up for residents. this push for resident trophy hunter support by the goabc is a ploy nothing else. if the goabc is concerned about resident hunters why do that rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars each year to promote non resident hunters through their non resident hunter protection fund. why not use that money for some other purpose that lobbying against resident hunters?

[Ambush]

I can understand the outfitters wanting LEH and point restrictions. It's money and less competition for them. But residents??

If you have only four point seasons, everyboby is after your four point. If you have any buck seasons, the meat hunters can get a buck or doe and be go home happy leaving you to pursue, in relative peace, an unpressured trophy of your liking.

Multi-millions of dollars and many years of intense reseach in the US QDM [quality deer management] projects have proven you must remove ALL classes of deer to to succeed. And shot more does. It's proven science.

[BCrams]

Hope you like LEH - that's the push for all species and that's what 'quality of hunt' means to GOABC.

Guess you can keep buying guided sheep hunts

Hope you enjoy sitting at your mailbox waiting for a draw.

Keep up the good work - this is another big step in killing off hunting in BC.


All he knows is that he can just go 'buy' a GO tag for which ever species he wants to hunt and so can his friends.

He'll never wait for a draw like the rest of us would have to.


Heitsman's dream is to ride his horse up through Churn Creek and see 200 inch Boone and Crockett mule deer from the saddle of his horse every day where he can take his pick ........ while all residents can't get a draw ....

Reality is ....... there are already bucks like that in the Chilcotin but he doesn't know how to hunt them ...... big bucks aren't stupid and its not often you will catch them where he thinks they're supposed to be.

[David Heitsman]

Glad to see everyone is still awake out there.

Was worried that you were all taking care of your mother's and not helping to spread hate and discontent as usual.

Like I said, there is no one in BC representing BC trophy hunters.

The US has SCI and we need something similar here in BC. Other wildlife groups that attract trophy hunters do not have trophy hunting built in to their mandates as they tend to be conservation based. (I'm thinking of the WSSoBC here.)

I actually think the new Resident's for Quality association is going to fill a niche here in BC. There will always be naysayers of course and posting pictures of your trophy animals means that you are selective and that's great but in the end, there is no one in Victoria hearing from you as a selective trophy hunter.

The BCWF has a reputation of opposing anything to improve trophy opportunity as this could limit some hunting opportunity. While we may be in the minority as some of you have indicated, I still think there is enough of us if united to form a voice that could be heard.

Kudos to the GOABC for recognizing this. This comes no doubt from them expanding their businesses significantly in the last five years by marketing to BC hunters and listening to their concerns. If this association is formed it could also provide for more resident input into other facets of their operations as well.

Anyway back to the thread originator.

Who is going to oppose the news slant that tends to be biased against
trophy hunting?

My guess is that the news is referring to all hunting but the word 'trophy' is used to convey a negative image. You know the kind where people think we kill to only cut their heads off.

It's quite similar to the news always saying if was a "High Powered Rifle".
Any rifle is 'high powered' when compared to one that is lower powered
but it has this menacing ring to it and the media just loves to throw it out there.

[Deaddog]

ANY push for trophy only cateogory's for BC animals is hogwash. I have no issues with guide outfitters making a living, and I understand their clients are after "trophy" animals, however the bottom line is BC residents must have equal opportunity if not more.. equal does not mean equal opportunity to purchase hunts! Equal means I purchase my gos tag over the counter. We are headed in a terrible direction and hurting our own cause to continue our hunting heritage when we begin to "promote" "trophy only" hunting. as our main reason for hunting. Hunting has been a part of me and my family for many generations, to think that only those that have the funds may enjoy the opportunity makes me extremely angry. To have the opportunity to hunt certain species only a couple of times in my life in my own province, while those with more money hunt yearly is clearly unacceptable. .. I hunt as I enjoy the outdoors, the scenery, comradry and the opportunity to hunt a myriad of species, the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. If all parties concerned would look at the science of the issue and forget lining their own interests things would be much better. Lets not just point the finger at GOABC however, as posted earlier on today their are a number of residents as well who are the nimby type who have effectively stopped opening up seasons when the regional biologists have stated they should be opened up. Either way, if you wish to be a "trophy" hunter, feel free, just don't pull the trigger ie Dana and his deer, however do not think for one moment that it is OK to take away my opportunity's in order that more "trophy" animals are available for the minority. Jim

[BCrams]

I actually think the new Resident's for Quality association is going to fill a niche here in BC. There will always be naysayers of course and posting pictures of your trophy animals means that you are selective and that's great but in the end, there is no one in Victoria hearing from you as a selective trophy hunter.



You're sorely missing the point David.

The point is, there are trophy animals already out there and there are resident hunters who can find and take them should they choose to be selective. Often this is after their freezer is filled.



you don't need restrictive LEH seasons
you don't need point restrictions
you don't need additional restrictions (i.e., access)...... etc.I first and foremost want to see hunter opportunity out there for hunters to be able to hunt.

Unlike you, most of us can still go hunt, be selective and be successful for big deer or other animals should we choose to ......

If you'd spend more time in the bush rather than in your office, maybe ..... just maybe you'll be able to find that big Chilcotin buck that's laughing at you as you ride the grasslands from the dark timber.

[Gateholio]

Gentlemen

I've already asked once that people remain civil on this thread. that is warning #1

I've had to delete a few posts, and give out a few infractions, and close the thread while I clean it up a bit.

If you guys can't find a way to engage in debate without using derogatory language, you are going to find yourself with a time out from HBC.

I'm opening the thread, but the mods will keep an eye on it. Insults won't be tolerated, and if necessary the thread will get locked down for good. It's up to you guys....

[BCrams]

Glad to see everyone is still awake out there.



You weren't awake enough to see these earlier questions:


What is 'quality'?

Then tell everyone what you and the GO's want to do to get that 'quality'......


Please do publicly tell everyone on here what it is.......

[GoatGuy]

Like I said, there is no one in BC representing BC trophy hunters.

The US has SCI and we need something similar here in BC. Other wildlife groups that attract trophy hunters do not have trophy hunting built in to their mandates as they tend to be conservation based. (I'm thinking of the WSSoBC here.)

I actually think the new Resident's for Quality association is going to fill a niche here in BC. There will always be naysayers of course and posting pictures of your trophy animals means that you are selective and that's great but in the end, there is no one in Victoria hearing from you as a selective trophy hunter.

The BCWF has a reputation of opposing anything to improve trophy opportunity as this could limit some hunting opportunity. While we may be in the minority as some of you have indicated, I still think there is enough of us if united to form a voice that could be heard.

Kudos to the GOABC for recognizing this. This comes no doubt from them expanding their businesses significantly in the last five years by marketing to BC hunters and listening to their concerns. If this association is formed it could also provide for more resident input into other facets of their operations as well.

Some people who choose to hunt 'trophy sized animals' also believe everybody should have equal access to wildlife and managing based on science. They aren't selfish and they're good hunters who don't look for subsidized opportunities at the expense of the 'common man'.

You're clearly not one of those.

If Val Geist had a look at this he'd be shaking his head in disbelief. You're very clearly a proponent of the commercialization of hunting. SCI is a joke - any organization that supports canned hunts and arbitrary lines where sub species are identified is complete and total garbage. That right there is what has painted hunting in a bad light, what the public and most hunters don't support. That is what is killing off hunting across North America.

It's too bad - the European model is ideal in your conception of hunting. Hunt clubs, members only hunting areas, those who have the most $ get to go hunting. Locked gates and admission fees.


Hunting in BC will not survive another 100 years if this is the future. Neither will fishing for that matter.

Maybe one day you'll get what you wish for. It'll come in the form of a NIL species in June and you'll be left sitting at home all fall watching hunting shows instead of heading out hunting.

[duckhunt]

I am sorry that i got some people too riled up, i just wanted to see if people were wanting to do something to stop this because this is just a stepping stone this will probably lead to even worse hunting bans such a no lead for shotgun and rifles,the anti's will never stop but we should make an attempt to get the truth out for people to really understand.

[born2hunt]

Glad to see everyone is still awake out there.

Was worried that you were all taking care of your mother's and not helping to spread hate and discontent as usual.

Like I said, there is no one in BC representing BC trophy hunters.

The US has SCI and we need something similar here in BC. Other wildlife groups that attract trophy hunters do not have trophy hunting built in to their mandates as they tend to be conservation based. (I'm thinking of the WSSoBC here.)

I actually think the new Resident's for Quality association is going to fill a niche here in BC. There will always be naysayers of course and posting pictures of your trophy animals means that you are selective and that's great but in the end, there is no one in Victoria hearing from you as a selective trophy hunter.

The BCWF has a reputation of opposing anything to improve trophy opportunity as this could limit some hunting opportunity. While we may be in the minority as some of you have indicated, I still think there is enough of us if united to form a voice that could be heard.

Kudos to the GOABC for recognizing this. This comes no doubt from them expanding their businesses significantly in the last five years by marketing to BC hunters and listening to their concerns. If this association is formed it could also provide for more resident input into other facets of their operations as well.

Anyway back to the thread originator.

Who is going to oppose the news slant that tends to be biased against
trophy hunting?

My guess is that the news is referring to all hunting but the word 'trophy' is used to convey a negative image. You know the kind where people think we kill to only cut their heads off.

It's quite similar to the news always saying if was a "High Powered Rifle".
Any rifle is 'high powered' when compared to one that is lower powered
but it has this menacing ring to it and the media just loves to throw it out there.I would post my thought's on this subject and Davids views again but I fear it will just get me another infraction on HBC and that i don't need but i will say this to who will ever listen if we let some of these beliefs and dreams of trophy hunting go on and become reality it will only cause the numbers of hunters to decrease and hunting British Columbia as we know it now to go too A PAY AS YOU GO SYSTEM !!

[GoatGuy]

I am sorry that i got some people too riled up, i just wanted to see if people were wanting to do something to stop this because this is just a stepping stone this will probably lead to even worse hunting bans such a no lead for shotgun and rifles,the anti's will never stop but we should make an attempt to get the truth out for people to really understand.



With a push to put everything on LEH the last people we need to worry about are the anti's.


No hunting seasons, no hunters it's that simple and that's the push right now.

[6616]

I am sorry that i got some people too riled up, i just wanted to see if people were wanting to do something to stop this because this is just a stepping stone this will probably lead to even worse hunting bans such a no lead for shotgun and rifles,the anti's will never stop but we should make an attempt to get the truth out for people to really understand.



You didn't rile anyone up, your original post was a very legitimate concern, you are 100% correct. The BCWF and the GOABC have worked together many times in the past with good results, and they will again someday I'm sure.

However at the present time when the GOABC is working hard to exclude resident hunters from the bush it has suddenly became very difficult. MOE is listening to them too, and that's most disturbing! There are several new proposed regulations being sounded out by MOE that are obviously designed to support the GOABC and "quality hunting", resident hunters and the BCWF are upset.

Seems the GOABC has a powerful lobby, and has convinced MOE to hold back on their own recruitment/retention stratgey. That leaves the BCWF little choice but to mount a counter-active campaign against the GOABC and several MOE proposals. They have a powerful lobby too. Expect to hear more from them on this in the upcoming weeks and months.

[Deaddog]

Just a reminder that the views expressed on here are those of individuals and in no way represent the views of organizations that they may be attached to. DD

[Devilbear]

Some people who choose to hunt 'trophy sized animals' also believe everybody should have equal access to wildlife and managing based on science. They aren't selfish and they're good hunters who don't look for subsidized opportunities at the expense of the 'common man'.

You're clearly not one of those.

If Val Geist had a look at this he'd be shaking his head in disbelief. You're very clearly a proponent of the commercialization of hunting. SCI is a joke - any organization that supports canned hunts and arbitrary lines where sub species are identified is complete and total garbage. That right there is what has painted hunting in a bad light, what the public and most hunters don't support. That is what is killing off hunting across North America.

It's too bad - the European model is ideal in your conception of hunting. Hunt clubs, members only hunting areas, those who have the most $ get to go hunting. Locked gates and admission fees.


Hunting in BC will not survive another 100 years if this is the future. Neither will fishing for that matter.

Maybe one day you'll get what you wish for. It'll come in the form of a NIL species in June and you'll be left sitting at home all fall watching hunting shows instead of heading out hunting.

I completely agree with GG's excellent post here and can only add that this will go on, until either the proponents of commercial "hunting", ( you know, the mighty mountain men who shoot "trophy" animals found by GOABC "experts" using spotter planes and radios to their non-res. "guides") win, OR, all "non.resident alien" hunting in B.C. is banned.

I see NO legitimate reason to allow ANY such exploitation of OUR game by foreigners, so, the conclusion is obvious. IF repeat IF, we have surplus game to our requirements, let's share it with our fellow CANADIANS, not rich "experts" from the land of egos, photos and feeders.......

[Kody94]

I am thinking that I am not being represented by the BCWF or GOABC either, and will have to start my own association....something like the "Federation of Wannabe Blue-Bloods for Royal Hunting Priviliges Only". Members would agree that I get to be King of BC and that hunting priviliges would only be granted by royal assent (from me of course). Dues paying members would be pretty much automatic choices, unless I decided they were too good at hunting and were shooting all of my big trophies, or if I caught them hunting where I wanted to hunt that day.

[Fisher-Dude]

I am thinking that I am not being represented by the BCWF or GOABC either, and will have to start my own association....something like the "Federation of Wannabe Blue-Bloods for Royal Hunting Priviliges Only". Members would agree that I get to be King of BC and that hunting priviliges would only be granted by royal assent (from me of course). Dues paying members would be pretty much automatic choices, unless I decided they were too good at hunting and were shooting all of my big trophies, or if I caught them hunting where I wanted to hunt that day.

What will happen if I flip a loonie at you? Oh wait, wrong thread...

[frenchbar]

The GOABC and there trophyand quality hunting philosophy's can go pound SAND!

[BCrams]

It turns out David is one of the guys speaking up with the Guide Outfitters and MOE about how guys from BC are going to Alberta to hunt for "trophy" mule deer.

Here's what the outfitter he went with says: "Mule deer have flourished in this foothill region due to fairly mild winter conditions and the presence of a drawing system for resident hunters."

Outfitters and their clients know that by reducing resident hunter numbers in the bush, they benefit.

That is what David Heitsman wants in BC. A drawing system for resident hunters.

He wouldn't get drawn .... but thats when he and his cronies would just buy an outfitter tag and go hunting anyways.


David Heitsman wrote: I fly to Calgary on Tuesday PM and by 5:00 PM Wednesday, I am back in Abbotsford with a 163" non-typ mule deer. It was the shortest hunt I ever had! Glassed about 15 4 pts in the first hour, took another hour to stalk and shoot this one and then a couple more hours and I was back in Calgary at the airport.

Of course I rebooked for fall 2007 and will hold out for a 180 ish or better typical deer. My picture made his brochure but not his website yet.

[frenchbar]

Typical GREEDY rich folk,every thing for them and f--- the rest of every body else:eek:

[dana]

Funny, I guess the trophy is in the eye of the beholder, because to me, a 160 class NT is a buck that still needs to grow up. If I was an outfitter, I wouldn't want small buck like that on my brochere. ;) Sounds like a quality hunt too.

You know what I'd want from an organization looking out for my interests as a trophy hunter, support of General Open Seasons. Imagine that, a trophy hunter that can actually hunt and kill big critter while there are others in the bush. David and the GOABC have just bit the hand that feeds them. How many bookings has the GOABC taken for mule deer over the last 7 years are a result of the infamous BCBOY promoting this province??? They pretty much had free advertising and none had the smarts to figure it out. Guess what? Now they are being promoted as the lamest, laziest mule deer guides out there. And believe it, the Yanks actually take me seriously. I happen to know many in the mule deer biz and have made it known to them that if any of their clients are thinking of booking BC, they better think elsewhere. BC mule deer hunting sucks the big one for the non-resident for no other reason than the GOABC is too bloody lazy to get off their asses and actually get to know the bucks within their own territories. David, tell your cronies in the GOABC they have just screwed their mule deer bookings big time.

[dana]

The funny thing in all this is the GOABC has been sleeping the last 15 years and not selling the trophy mule deer within this province. They have let the $$$ slip out their fingers as states like CO, UT, AZ, WY, and NV have kicked BC's outfitter's asses. While the GOABC has consistantly sold mule deer as a add-on and shot dinks ranging in the 120-160 class, they have watched the market pass them by. Now, years too late, they want a piece of the pie because a group of weekend warrior residents have been whackin and stackin the monsters that live within this province. If you think I'm just going to sit idly by and loose all that I've worked hard to get just so some lame ass outfitter can take his client road hunting to kill yet another 150 class buck, you have another thing coming.

[Micky Finn]

Glad to see everyone is still awake out there.

Was worried that you were all taking care of your mother's and not helping to spread hate and discontent as usual.

Like I said, there is no one in BC representing BC trophy hunters.

The US has SCI and we need something similar here in BC. Other wildlife groups that attract trophy hunters do not have trophy hunting built in to their mandates as they tend to be conservation based. (I'm thinking of the SOB here.)

I actually think the new Resident's for Quality association is going to fill a niche here in BC. There will always be naysayers of course and posting pictures of your trophy animals means that you are selective and that's great but in the end, there is no one in Victoria hearing from you as a selective trophy hunter.

The BCWF has a reputation of opposing anything to improve trophy opportunity as this could limit some hunting opportunity. While we may be in the minority as some of you have indicated, I still think there is enough of us if united to form a voice that could be heard.

Kudos to the GOABC for recognizing this. This comes no doubt from them expanding their businesses significantly in the last five years by marketing to BC hunters and listening to their concerns. If this association is formed it could also provide for more resident input into other facets of their operations as well.

Anyway back to the thread originator.

Who is going to oppose the news slant that tends to be biased against
trophy hunting?

My guess is that the news is referring to all hunting but the word 'trophy' is used to convey a negative image. You know the kind where people think we kill to only cut their heads off.

It's quite similar to the news always saying if was a "High Powered Rifle".
Any rifle is 'high powered' when compared to one that is lower powered
but it has this menacing ring to it and the media just loves to throw it out there.

Well David, I think you had better check your sources.

Actually, the BCWF has a reputation for sticking up for "ALL" kinds of hunting.

Just because you believe that the only way to harvest more "Trophy" bucks and have a "Quality" hunt is through restricted harvest, doesn't mean you are correct.

In fact, the best way, scientifically, is by following a policy that encourages "Maximum Sustained Yield" and consistently harvesting the biological surplus across the full spectrum of the population according to their relative abundance with-in that population.

This means that at least as many does as bucks are harvested,
more spikes than two-points, twos than threes, threes than fours and of course, more 140's than 200's.

You won't get many hunts like this I'm afraid:
David Heitsman wrote: I fly to Calgary on Tuesday PM and by 5:00 PM Wednesday, I am back in Abbotsford with a 163" non-typ mule deer. It was the shortest hunt I ever had! Glassed about 15 4 pts in the first hour, took another hour to stalk and shoot this one and then a couple more hours and I was back in Calgary at the airport.

Of course I rebooked for fall 2007 and will hold out for a 180 ish or better typical deer. My picture made his brochure but not his website yet.
you will actually have to work as hard as Dana's Crew to get that big trophy among all the four and betters.

But you don't mind, do you? You, by your own words are a "Trophy Hunter".

Myself, I am a omnivore. I want to preserve my right to put meat on my table and in my freezer and my ability to teach my grandkids to hunt.

I have read the biological research and the polls of public support for different reasons for hunting. I believe that the best way to preserve hunting on public land is to work to preserve as much opportunity by residents to harvesting for "Consummation". I'll work to preserve your right to trophy hunt at the same time because I support that too, but I don't have faith that anyone will be able to preserve "Trophy Hunts" on Crown land if we were ever to lose "Resident Harvest".

There just will not be enough votes at risk when the Anti's go after the the last few thousand "Evil, Bambi killers".

Mike

[huntwriter]

Glad to see everyone is still awake out there.

Like I said, there is no one in BC representing BC trophy hunters.

The US has SCI and we need something similar here in BC. Other wildlife groups that attract trophy hunters do not have trophy hunting built in to their mandates as they tend to be conservation based. (I'm thinking of the WSSoBC here.)
Do we really need something similar here as in the U.S.? In the U.S. the so called trophy management craze has closed most of the private land to the average hunter making hunting affordable only to wealthy people. It also lead to export and import of deer breading stock such as in Texas. That state was never known for large antlered trophy bucks until they started to import large antlered breeding stock form other states.

Funny you should mention the Safari Club International (SCI). This organization supports anything that makes money with no regard whatsoever to wildlife conservation. Heck they even support killing old zoo tigers and elephants in small pens. They also supported online killing of caged animals until it was outlawed. The CSI also supported Faberman and his trophy deer catch-release tournament (based on the bass tournament). The CSI supports anything as long it promises to be financially profitable and saleable to the highest bidders. The CSI has contributed more to the animal rights agenda than any other hunting organization.


I actually think the new Resident's for Quality association is going to fill a niche here in BC. There will always be naysayers of course and posting pictures of your trophy animals means that you are selective and that's great but in the end, there is no one in Victoria hearing from you as a selective trophy hunter. You're right it would fill a niche for the tourist hunters and the rich local hunters at the cost of the resident hunters that would loose opportunity. See America and at its worst Europe where it has gone so far that average hunters are left to shoot rats at the local garbage dump because that is all they can afford. Not everybody in Europe has up to 25’000 dollars to spare just for mandatory hunting club membership fees. I am from Europe and I do not like what I have seen. If it were not for my parents I probably never would have been able to hunt. Do you really think that this is a system worth to pursue for the benefit af a few at the cost of many? Pretty selfish don't you think?


The BCWF has a reputation of opposing anything to improve trophy opportunity as this could limit some hunting opportunity. While we may be in the minority as some of you have indicated, I still think there is enough of us if united to form a voice that could be heard. The BCWF quite rightly does not support commercializing hunting. The BCWF represents ALL hunters not only trophy hunters. Neither is it the government’s job to cater to the whims of a few. Wildlife management should be based on science, as in a healthy sustainable wildlife population and not turning wildlife into a merchandise for the highest bidder.

Government implemented trophy management has been tried in some states such as New York, Kentucky, Alabama and Iowa, to name a few. These programs have failed horribly because it takes more then just antler restrictions. To start with you need the genetics. If an area does not have the genetics you have to import genetically superior animals as breeding stock and that is not the governments conservation goal and neither should it be. It's called wildlife conservation not wildlife farming.

In America trophy management only works on private land because as landowner you can introduce the breeding stock you need and cull as many deer as you need to achieve the management goal. In otehr words on these properties wildlife is "farmed" which ties in nicely with "harvesting an animal".


Kudos to the GOABC for recognizing this. This comes no doubt from them expanding their businesses significantly in the last five years by marketing to BC hunters and listening to their concerns. If this association is formed it could also provide for more resident input into other facets of their operations as well. I doubt very much that the GOABC is listening to BC hunters as much as they do to the “concerns” of their members wishing to expand their business at the cost of the resident hunters. I have no doubt in my mind that the BC outfitters look south and wish to have the same conditions. It's easy to do. All the outfitters have to do is purchase private land and fence it in like the American Outfitters do. But I guess our outfitters do not want this because it is to much of a financial risk, so they push the government to restrict local hunters on PUBLIC land for the benefit of a few. BY the way, since you mentione the American model, in America outfitters are by law not permitted to close of public land to other hunters or in any other way harras hunters. As name implies it is after all PUBLIC land.

With an attitude like yours the new hunting lobby organization introduced by the BCWF comes not a minute to soon. When I came to North America one of the things I admired is our hunting heritage that enabled everybody regardless of financial status to hunt and fish. It disturbs me to see that some people, that don't seem to have any regard for their fellow man when it comes to satisfying their own ego, want to take that away and turn hunting into a sport for a privileged few.

While I have no objections against outfitters making a living and trophy hunting whatsoever I will fight to keep hunting available to ALL people and to do so I will use what influence I have to oppose your idea. BC and our wildlife belongs to everybody wishing to pursue hunting and not just to a few with big wallets. Neither do I think, although popular these days, that a majority should bow down to a minority.

If you want to kill a big buck do as Dana does and work hard for it. If that is too much effort then by all means head to Alberta or Texas in the morning and be back in the evening with bragging rights, but don’t expect us to give away our opportunities and our rights for your convenience.

[mark]

Awesome post huntwriter!!!
Lets keep hunting opportunity for all, and the trophy animals for those that are "willing to work for it, not pay for it!"

[Ambush]

Here's a fact. Meat hunters are good for trophy hunters!!

Quality Deer Management [QDM] is a two Billion dollar a year business in the United States, and they have come to some scienctific conclusions, and largely through state universities.

You cannot have ungulate populations at or above carrying capacity and create "trophy" quality animals with point restrictions.

If you're at your maximum capacity of one hundred deer and shoot only the mature bucks, the does and younger bucks will remain at capacity and completely utilize all the available feed. The class structure will never change in that herd. There's only room for one hundred deer and they will be the ones that don't get removed.

A buck with good feed and genetics can be a four point in his second summer. With point restrictions, you have now made him the only target legal for a hunter. The average deer hunter would otherwise have shot the first buck he could and left that four point, possibly to develope to his full potential.

Research says: keep populations below carrying capacity by shooting does and shoot bucks from all age classes.

But you don't have to beleive me, just google "QDM" and you can spend from now until opening day reading the facts. While almost all of it is for whitetail, much will apply to mule deer as well.

Another fact, in BC, is that most people are just looking for a hunting experience and are not deligently and selectively looking for a wall hanger.

And that should keep the trophy hunters happy as well.

[huntwriter]

Here's a fact. Meat hunters are good for trophy hunters!!

Quality Deer Management [QDM] is a two Billion dollar a year business in the United States, and they have come to some scienctific conclusions, and largely through state universities.

You cannot have ungulate populations at or above carrying capacity and create "trophy" quality animals with point restrictions.

If you're at your maximum capacity of one hundred deer and shoot only the mature bucks, the does and younger bucks will remain at capacity and completely utilize all the available feed. The class structure will never change in that herd. There's only room for one hundred deer and they will be the ones that don't get removed.

A buck with good feed and genetics can be a four point in his second summer. With point restrictions, you have now made him the only target legal for a hunter. The average deer hunter would otherwise have shot the first buck he could and left that four point, possibly to develope to his full potential.

Research says: keep populations below carrying capacity by shooting does and shoot bucks from all age classes.

But you don't have to beleive me, just google "QDM" and you can spend from now until opening day reading the facts. While almost all of it is for whitetail, much will apply to mule deer as well.

Another fact, in BC, is that most people are just looking for a hunting experience and are not deligently and selectively looking for a wall hanger.

And that should keep the trophy hunters happy as well.

QDM does not publish all the facts and for good reason. Without genetics no matter how many nutritious food plots you plant and how even you manage the doe to buck ratio or how samll you keep the herd, you NEVER will get trophy sized bucks. The key ingredient to trophy management are the genetics without that no matter what you do you're screwed.

Example: Tennessee NEVER will have bucks like Alabama, because the Tennessee deer do not have the GENETICS that produces large antlers. It's not that the Tennessee gov. hasn't tried to achive trophy status. QDM has also been tried in Pennsylvania , also state enforced. They tried hard for over ten years and spent millions on it. Result is zero effect. All it did is piss off hunters because they lost opportunity to wishful thinking that never could be fullfilled because they had not the GENETICS in their deer herd to start with, and never will, unless they import deer from other states or Canadian provinces.

See Texas as example. They only have large bucks on managed ranches where they have introduced breeding stock from Illinois and Saskatchewan among other places with genetically "superior" deer.

As I said this simple fact is not readily revealed by QDM because if they would do that their multi billion business built on hope and wishfull thinking would crumble over night.

[Ambush]

I'm not sure what your trying to say Huntwriter, or if you have missunderstood what I said. We have the genetics and habitat to produce "trophy" quality animals AND let people hunt for meat. My statement was and is "...meat hunters are good for trophy hunters."

I'm saying we have to harvest from the whole herd structure, does and bucks from every age class.

And say what you will, QDM has produced astounding results, and we would be foolish not to learn from that to help manage our wild herds.

[goatdancer]

I don't care what the US and Europe do for their hunting. This is BC. Let's keep it that way. We, the residents, deserve first crack at our animals. LEH, as a tool to promote the business of GOABC, is unacceptable. The "trophy" quality of any animal is wholly dependent on the harvester of that animal. All the rest of the hype is just BS perpetrated by a bunch of self-serving organizations to promote their own agendas and stroke their own egos. The only organization that speaks for resident hunters is the BCWF. So get off your butts and join them directly or thru your local F & G club. That way we, the residents, might have a chance of stopping this insane sell-off of our valuable resource.

[bridger]

I agree with Ambush on the genetics factor coupled with carrying capacity. In the peace country our mule deer herd was really building in the 80's and we were taking some big bucks. we had a harvest plan that only allowed 4 points. soon the bucks in the harvest even tho they were 4 pts began to get smaller even with good genetcis. in the meantime the doe and young buck components increased dramatically, but we kept harvesting trophy bucks. our region even went so far as to implement a one buck every two years for awhile when we had thousands of deer around. managing for trophy quality resulted in fewer hunting opportunities and fewer trophies. I hope we always have trophies for those of us who like to pursue them and fill the freezer at the same time.

[gamehunter6o]

[quote=Ambush;457627] My statement was and is "...meat hunters are good for trophy hunters."

Only if meat hunters leave immature males under say 3yrs old, and cull only inferior males, leaving high potential males to reach maturity.
Hunters who hunt only for meat, do not hunt with these "ethics". (No criticism)

[huntwriter]

I'm not sure what your trying to say Huntwriter, or if you have missunderstood what I said. We have the genetics and habitat to produce "trophy" quality animals AND let people hunt for meat. My statement was and is "...meat hunters are good for trophy hunters."

I'm saying we have to harvest from the whole herd structure, does and bucks from every age class.

And say what you will, QDM has produced astounding results, and we would be foolish not to learn from that to help manage our wild herds.

True but only where the genetics exist to begin with. Yes we do have trophy quality and habitat is some areas but not everywhere throughout the province. Personally I do not believe that we should endorse a government trophy animal program as a rule. It’s not the goal of government wildlife conservation and neither should it be. As I said in an earlier post it has been tried elsewhere and backfired. On private land a hunter or outfitter can do as he wants and that is fine by me but as province wide policy I have big reservations against QDM bacuase it does't work.

As for the statement that meat hunters are good for QDM, no they are not. Shooting whatever happens to walk in front of your rifle or bow just to bring the population down and get rid of does is not sufficient enough. In fact it can work against the QDM program. Talk to a QDM biologist, he will tell you.

If you want to manage for trophy animals you have to be very selective what you kill. I was involved in a QDM program on a private place and yes we killed many does and bucks –up to 30 each year - but we had to be very selective and learn a few things about judging “genetic quality” from the treestand. We killed does, spikes and eight point buck while letting other spikes, eight points and does walk. It’s not as easy as you make it sound. QDM is based on diligent science that incorporates a vast array of aspects and conditions not only on how many deer you cull and what nutrition you provide.

[Ambush]

huntwriter
As for the statement that meat hunters are good for QDM, no they are not. Shooting whatever happens to walk in front of your rifle or bow just to bring the population down and get rid of does is not sufficient enough. In fact it can work against the QDM program. Talk to a QDM biologist, he will tell you.

As for your first sentence, on public land, yes they are and for more reasons than just herd management.

As for "...talk to a QDM bioligist" all the latest info is at my [and your] finger tips. And yes I do try to stay up with research that may affect me as a hunter.

Such as a recently completed project on supplemental feeding of mule deer and it's affect on habitat and deer migrations and dispersal. Some of this information is very relavent to the sheep feeding we do for bighorns.

Not that long ago [ to some of us] we were told that a buck was a spike his first year, a two point his second, a three point his third and so on. Some info from even five years ago is no longer valid. Our knowledge changes exponentialy with each passing year so we should stay current and use what is available and helpful to us.

I am also in regular contact with American hunters, and I hope that in BC we never end up with the limited oppurtunities that have been thrust upon many of them as resident hunters. No wonder they want to come here!

But I'm not above looking over my neighbour's fence to see what works in his yard either. We should learn from other people's mistakes and victories.

[dana]

While the talk of QDM is fun and makes one feel warm and fuzzy inside, it can not work within this province. Why? Hmmm, think about it. BC is freakin huge. Less than 5% of BC is private land. We have a harsh winter climate and we have what the majority of the Yanks don't, PREDATORS. We can not begin to think that by killing off the meat hunters within this province that we will begin to grow bigger bucks. For that which the meat hunter doesn't kill, Mother Nature will do her best to get the job done instead. Be it wolves, lions, bears or harsh winters. Passing on a young buck with potential today does not mean you will see him as a big mature buck 4 years from now. It not only takes superior genetics and great nutrition and abundant water to create a trophy buck. It takes AGE. While the outfitters might think they can grow big bucks by eliminating the resident hunter from the picture, that just ain't so. A big buck only gets big by being SMART. He has to survive against all odds and live to the full potential of his rack. The chances of that happening are stacked against him. If the outfitters want to kill big bucks, they are going to have to outsmart them. And thus far, the outfitters have proven they ain't smart enough to get the job done. The fact is they are too damn lazy to even scout for the big bucks within their territories. They would rather sleep in all summer long and take their chances riding their horses along ridges where they skyline themselves for every buck in the basin to peg them. They ain't smart hunters, they are just lazy hunters. They should be embarressed that a group of weekend warrior residents kick their asses every year. Instead of pushing to change the seasons, they should be changing the way they hunt. Read some books and start scouting. Put in the hard labour and get to know big bucks and the places they call home. That is the only way they will see success and be able to get true monster muleys on their brochures. If they are unwilling to put the work in, they are then destined to fail and dana's crew will still be whackin and stackin and writting the Public Land DIYer articles for Muley Crazy, Trophy Hunter and Eastmans.

[Jelvis]

Can't eat the antlers hey! lol. Or track soup. Personally I prefer a young moose over deer meat, but deer is good also, I like to grind it up and make specialty meats out of most of it, keep some in steak form and chops, bone in or bone out. Nothing like a young doe for a good venison meatloaf.
Jel -- young moose makes for the best meat -- imho --

[dana]

Jelly,
If the outfitters get their way, you won't be able to enjoy young moose any more. They want to do away with the Spike/Fork season as those are considered TROPHY SHIRAS by SCI. :roll:

[Jelvis]

We got some real professionals working in the Fish and Wildlife here in BC.
The staff of trained and highly educated biologists take pride in their field studies and long range plans. The supervisors overlook the plans with the wildlife and habitat as well, I would'nt get too worried about tourists.
Wildlife planning and management is controlled by winter range capacity and to keep the herds in proper numbers so they don't starve by over eating their winter forage is numero oouno.
That's why hunting is needed to control the numbers of animals that depend on winter ranges through out BC to control forage capability's
Jel -

[Singleshotneeded]

:smile: Guide outfitters are not friends of the average B.C. hunter, and anything they propose is rubbish. The BCWF supports the interests of
the average B.C. hunter, maintaining good numbers of game animals to
harvest and fill the freezer. If you're fortunate enough to come across
a really nice rack, that's great, but most B.C. hunters want to come home
with an animal to help feed their families. We need to support the BCWF
in it's efforts to maximize hunting opportunities for B.C. residents, and fight any government ideas about selling our birthright...

[Mooseman]

WOW.......good thing us "evil" guide outfitters are in the bush working or this thread would set new records on HBC.

Have fun continuing to misquote, assume, suspect and bs.

Got to run now ;)

[bridger]

WOW.......good thing us "evil" guide outfitters are in the bush working or this thread would set new records on HBC.

Have fun continuing to misquote, assume, suspect and bs.

Got to run now ;)

the drive by the goabc to limit resident hunting opportunities and promote trophy hunting is a fact. the question you should answer! is this an inititative supported by the membership (you included) in general or is it a push by a few of the larger international hunting companies that run the goabc? If the smaller canadian outfitters in the goabc are unaware of the threat to residents posed by this issue and don't support it perhaps they should take the goabc leadership to task before this issue escalates.

If you are aware of it and support; it been nice knowing you!

[dana]

In the bush working??? You mean road hunting trophy bears don't ya? In all reality, that right there is the best thing the GOABC can do to make themselves viable. To think some in the GOABC are pushing to put black bears on LEH too. That would indeed be cutting their own throats. Many outfitters sell a ton of bears. Heck, when I guided bears we were killing 35-40 a year. 5 Grand for the 2 on 1 7 day hunt. $500 trophy fee on the first bear, $1000 trophy fee for the second bear. Was easy selling those Europeans 2 tags. Whack and Stack the bears. Now, there is some good money. And to think if they went LEH they would be putting themselves on a quota. Sounds like some smart business sense to me. Take your 40 bears a year and cut it back to less than half. All that money you used to make, GONE! The GOABC's plans hurt their own membership. Like I said earlier, if I was an outfitter, I'd be pissed.

[Fisher-Dude]

Dana, I think greed is starting to blow their rational thought all to hell.

[bridger]

Dana, I think greed is starting to blow their rational thought all to hell.


I agree this has always been the issue driving the goabc in its dealings with residents. why should a resident be able to harvest more than one stone sheep when we can sell them for $30,000 has always been the goabc attitude. that same attitude is the driving force behind their push for trophy management. Dana you really hit the nail on the head IMO

[dana]

All one needs to do is the math. She don't add up. 5 grand is pretty much a guarentee hunt. Easy to sell. And that is for the trophy 5 foot+ bears that they sell to the Eurpeans. Most don't go home without at least one bear. See a colour phase and all of a sudden you've got them excited about forking over another grand in trophy fees. And you can whack and stack without any worries of over shooting your area. We are crawling with bears in this province. You want trophy bears, 6'-8' foot for the Yanks, you are talking 7 to 8 grand. And it still is a road hunt where you make them pass on a few before they pull the trigger. Why would you want to loose that and put yourself on quota, and then try to make it back in selling mule deer hunts for 3 grand and not being able to kill anything bigger than a 140-150 class buck which only the Eastern Yanks will be happy with. If an outfitter put in his time, he could easily have his cake and eat it too. 40 bears a year and mulitiple muleys in the 170-200 inch range without a single change to the existing seasons. He just has to work for his money. If he doesn't want to get up early in the morning, pay a guide $150/day to sit and glass and scout some prime muley country in the summer. Hmmm, wouldn't that small investment go a longways if he could consistantly kill trophy bucks instead of DINKS???? A little homework is all the outfitters need to do and then they too can kill big bucks like Dana's Crew. Change the seasons and don't change your hunting strategy and continue to be LAZY and you will cut your throat. 40 bears a year cut down to less than half and as you continue to not produce big muleys, your bookings will drop till you have Nothing but those trophy SCI shiras moose in which you can make 4 to 5 grand on. Are these outfitters in Business to make money or are they in the business of being LAZY. It is all there NOW! Dana's crew get's er done yearly and we all are just weekend warriors. Imagine what a bunch of guys that actually get paid to hunt could do if they actually worked for their money???? LAZY OUTFITTERS means BROKE OUTFITTERS. Do the math!