Online petition.

[Steeleco]

I light of the developments with regard to the motion put forward by the Cariboo-Chilcotin Guide Outfitters Association, I felt it important to do something.

As many of you may have read there is a petition in circulation within the Region 5 area.

I felt a need for those of us not living in the area to be able to have a voice to help this petition.

So if any of you not living in the area would like to send me an e-mail with simply your proper name and city or town you live in, I will cut an paste your info and attach it to a letter which I will forward to Mr. J Drisdelle, BCWF President Erg 5.


Something like this:

We the individuals listed below would oppose any changes put forward by the Cariboo-Chilcotin Guide Outfitters Association for the benefit of said group. We may not all live in the Cariboo-Chilcotin area but feel very strongly about any changes that will restrict any British Columbian access to crown land or changes to the hunting privileges we know today.

I will delete all e-mails once your info is pasted to the letter, meaning I won’t be sending you any stupid joke at a later date!!!


send e-mails to steeleco@gmail.com have anyone that has an opinon send their names along even if they don't live on HBC like I do :oops::oops:

If all 395 or so people that viewed the original thread send me a note, it should help our neighbours in that Reg. fight the fight. Don't be shy your region may be next!!!

[Driftwood]

Could you provide more details regarding this petiton?

I've hunted region 5 for many years and three years ago, while on our Moose trip an outfitter in the area had spread three prong spikes all over the roads. Several camps had tires blown out and a couple trucks ended up in the ditch as a result.(fortunately nobody was hurt) While the Police and Game warden couldn't "prove" it was this particular outfitter, his comments about the area being HIS and that he would do "whatever it took to run hunters out", made it clear to everyone who had done it.

Perhaps some members will have heard about this or were there. Region 5-13.

[Steeleco]

I'm trying to get a copy of the letter written by the BCWF President for that reg. Mr Jacques Driselle, to post for all to read, I got a copy today from my local gun club and it has me hopping. Also have a look at this thread. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=3292

Send him a letter also the more the better. His e-mail is listed on the other thread. Thanks

[Steeleco]

Well after all the debate (positive I might add) I have realized after a note from the Reg 5 Pres. that I didn't get enough info from the EIGHT yes only 8 people that responded to my idea. Anyhow I have been asked to inform anyone interested that may want a say to contact Jacques Drisdelle:

read on:

David,

As the date is closing in on us for ending the petitions, anyone who wishes, can send me a brief email at this address jacques@bccf.com and let me know how they feel. I will add them to the end results of the petitions.

David,

Further to my last message, if anyone emails me, tell them to give me their names, address and telephone number. Without this information, its difficult to use as it is not verifiable.

Jacques




Jacques Drisdelle, President
BCWF Region 5 Cariboo Chilcotin
201 - 197 N. 2nd. Avenue
Williams Lake, BC V2G 1Z5
Tel: 250 398-8609
Home: 250-392-2417
Cell: 250 398-0368

Thanks to those of you that sent me a messge, but this will be the better course of action.

[J_T]

Thanks for taking this on Steelco.

My concerns would be around what is driving this. IE sound wildlife management or self serving issues.

Government and the BCWF can not be seen to be supporting one cause at the risk of others.

JT

[rambo]

Email sent to jacques@bccf.com

[buckslayer]

got this email today from CCOA-GOABC and i am still waiting to hear from the BCWF. Here is the propasal the guids have submitted. I will post the BCWF info when i get it.





ISSUE >>>



Restrict Resident Hunter Access to Crown Land





ISSUE >>>



Resident Hunters Be Placed on LEH





A petition suggests representatives of guide outfitters have proposed to restrict resident




hunter access to Crown Land in Region 5.







FACT



– This is not true. Representatives of guide outfitters (the Cariboo Chilcotin
Guide Outfitters - CCGO) have not put forward any such proposal. If resident access
was to be restricted, access by guide outfitters would also be restricted.







A BCWF newsletter from Region 5 suggests that at the provincial level, representatives of the




Guide Outfitters Association of British Columbia (GOABC) have proposed that resident hunters
be placed on Limited Hunting Entries for all species of wildlife in all regions of the province.







FACT



– This is not true. GOABC has not put forward any such proposal at the
provincial table.







ISSUE >>>



All General Open Seasons Be Closed





ISSUE >>>



Limit on Annual Bag Limit for Mule Deer Bucks





The same newsletter suggests that at the provincial level that representatives of GOABC




have proposed that all general open seasons for all wildlife species be suspended.







FACT



– This is not true. GOABC has not put forward any such proposal at the
provincial table.







A petition suggests that the Cariboo Chilcotin Guide Outfitters have brought to the table a




proposal that would limit the number of Mule Deer bucks a resident hunter could harvest
each year in the Cariboo.







FACT



– Yes, the CCGO has proposed that the annual bag limit for Mule Deer bucks
for all hunters, including non-residents be reduced from 2 to 1. This is only a proposal
for discussion for the Hunter Advisory Committee, which is what the Committee is
meant to do. The CCGO has not proposed that bucks be put on LEH, nor would the
local association make such a proposal. Wildlife stewardship is our priority, and we
believe that reducing the bag limit on bucks only would help ensure a better level of
wildlife management that would allow resident hunters and non-resident hunters to
enjoy an increased quality of hunting.







Important Message for Resident
Hunters In Region 5







Some serious misinformation is circulating in Region 5 in the form of petitions, newsletters and




some newspaper reports about certain hunting issues as they relate to resident hunters and
guide outfitters. The following information is designed to correct and clarify these issues.







History shows that guide outfitters and resident hunters have co-existed in British
Columbia for many years working together with trappers, First Nations and Ministry staff
in the interests of conservation and wildlife stewardship. While that relationship may be
tested from time to time, no issue is so serious that it can’t be resolved through dialogue
and discussion through forums like the Hunter Advisory Committee. In Region 5, we have
appreciated working with representatives of the BC Wildlife Federation, and we look
forward to continuing that relationship for years to come.







For more information contact:





Phone: (604) 278-2688




Toll-free: 1-866-543-1120 (after Nov.15th)
Email: info@goabc.org







The Guide Outfitters Association of British Columbia Cariboo Chilcotin Guide Outfitters

[Marc]

We
believe that reducing the bag limit on bucks only would help ensure a better level of
wildlife management that would allow resident hunters and non-resident hunters to
enjoy an increased quality of hunting.

How is this going to increase my quality of hunting? If it goes to just one buck is it going to be any buck, or 4 points or better? The way I look at it is if there is an LEH for doe in region 5 then there isn't a shortage of bucks. When you start shooting does it's because there are to many deer in a given area. If there was a shortage of Bucks you'd think they'd keep the does around to produce offspring.
To me a quality hunt is not the size of the animal but the time spent in the woods and meat in the freezer. A 2 point or a 4 point they all tast the same to me. Next they'll want to get rid of the calf season in region 7 so we can have a more quality hunt.:confused:

Marc.

[buckslayer]

If there are that many more bucks around it will be easier to earn the $4000.00 they charge to guide you to one. lol

[kutenay]

As I have already posted on this issue, it is time to permanently end ALL "non-resident alien" hunting" in B.C., even for persons now holding private property in the form of vacation homes, etc. here. Who in the f**k are these a**holes to tell us that it will result it better hunting for resident AND NON-RESIDENT HUNTERS; the wildlife belongs to B.C. people and non-residents have NO rights here, whatsoever.

After Xmas, I intend to go to Victoria and then become active politically in initiating a campaign to end ALL foreign hunting here. I used to be very active in the wilderness movement, still have contacts and also was on the L.M. B.C.W.F. executive. I say Canada for Canadians, foreigners out NOW!!!!

[Jagermeister]

I am of the opinion that the BCWF no longer acts in best interests of the resident hunters and anglers. I come to this conclusion believeing that the BCWF have been infiltrated by the Guides and Outfitters, hence the lack of a strong and loud voice decrying the proposals put forward by the Guides and Outfitters in the Cariboo-Chilcotin.
Now, having debased the BCWF, I want to express a vote of confidence in Mr. Jacques Drisdale and the rest of the BCWF Region 5 executive members whom I believe are working for the best interests for BC residents hunters.
And finally, if the Cariboo-Chilcotin guides and outfitters get their way with this, you can be assured that the Kootenays will be their next campaign soon followed by those in the Omenica-Peace region.

[kutenay]

I came to exactly the same conclusion quite some years ago and I have, btw, had direct, personal, recent experience with some of the most famous and pricey G/Os in B.C. They will, without question, try to curtail resident hunters in various areas of this province and have done this for years. Many of the really well known outfits are owned by foreigners and I WILL NOT have my hunting curtailed by damyankee moneygrubbers in MY country.

We are just now witnessing the takeover of Terasen Gas by the Kinder-Morgan petroleum giant of Texas; this will give them more access to and control over the Athabaska Tar Sands, ect. and we don't need them owning our hunting as well. I want to see these outfits expropriated and the various camps, etc. that they have on OUR Crown land razed. Just try to build yourself a cabin in the Muskwa-Kechika, the Flathead or the Spatsizi, you will be in deep s**t, yet foreign owned G/Os can do this..............

[Steeleco]

I've got Abobe files for both of these document's e-mail me if you want a copy. Both side present a good fight but which truth is the most truth????

[tmarschall]

Kutenay... good luck in your endeavors, I would like to offer some advice that might help. Although I have never really been politically "active" I have worked for the government for 11 years. Politics pretty much boils down to one philosophy.... "money talks and BS walks". I would assume you are not loaded with $$$ and can't buy any politicians, so here is my suggestion.... Use other people's money to get what you want. Which brings up the question... do you really want all foreigners out, or do you really want to enjoy hunting more wildlife with greater success? Realistically, the first option is a looooong shot. Those foreigners are bringing in the cash, find a way to use thet cash to acheive option number 2... more wildlife for all. Just how would you do this you ask? Get educated and get the facts. Collect harvest data and success rates. I understand that wildlife branch has that data available. I have seen some data on elk harvests in the kootenays that have shown a consistant downward trend, maybe it has changed in recent years, find the current data and make the truth known. If you can show harvest declines like i think you will find, that will be your weapon. Foreigners will stop hunting BC if their chances of bagging one can be shown to be on the decline. Then and only then will everyone be committed to good game management practices.
Arm yourself with facts, then go for it. I am not aware of any well know hunting state or nation that does not allow foreigners to hunt their wildlife. What you are asking for might be a first. Getting the foreigners and the game management prcatices under control might be a more realistic goal. If any of this makes any sense to you and you want more ideas, please let me know, would be glad to help.... Tom

[huntwriter]

Sadly that is a trend which I watch happening since I came to North America. First in America and now here in Canada more and more Crown Land or Public Land is been "leased" by Outfitters and off limits for hunters.

Eventually it will end like in Europe where all land is leased by Hunting Clubs (Outfitters). In order to hunt you got to belong to a Hunting Club most charge an annual membership fee in the neighbor hood of 3'000 to 4'000 dollar to cover lease cost and liability injurance. In other words you have to be rich to go hunting. The normal Joe Average goes hunting too with a .22 shooting rats at the local carbage dump.

In Mississippi duck hunters pay as much as US$ 40'000 to lease one little lousy duck blind for the season. Duck hunting for Joe Average has become impossible.

As someone posted you need a lot of money to stand up to corrupt politicans and they are all corrupt they all have a price tag on their neck. But despite all this I do believe if people would realize that they have to stand together then the government would have to step down on this issue. Look at France and Italy if people do not like what their government does they go onto the streets and the government shakes for fear.

[J_T]

This is an important issue. Not just in the Cariboo, but across the province, because as some have said, once a trend start to roll it can be hard to slow it down.

I too am a dis-enchanted ex-BCWFer. Not because I felt they were working for the GOABC, but rather because they had become mired in their own beauracracy and had seemed to have forgotten what their purpose really is.

I know that in the Kootenays, elk numbers are up, mule deer and white tailed deer numbers are up. I suspect that harvests of 6pt bulls was up last year and with the new archery opportunities, the archery harvests were up.

The Kootenays is run by a relatively solid Hunting Opportunities Commitee and I suspect this group is not quite as susceptible to influence.

However, one never knows for certain.

JT

[Steeleco]

All the names I collected to date have been sent on to the Reg 5 BCWF via e-mail this morning. Thanks and keep it up. If nothing else they'll know where watching!!!!

[Jagermeister]

Steeleco,

I signed locally back in October, otherwise I would add to the list.

Jagermeister

[buckslayer]

ok as promised here is the reply from the bcwf



BCWF NEWS REGION 5 – CARIBOO / CHILCOTIN


October 1, 2005
This past year has been marked with some very controversial issues arising at the Cariboo Wildlife Advisory Committee. This committee is made up of 4 representatives from the BC Wildlife Federation, one non-affiliate hunter rep., 4 Cariboo Chilcotin Guide Outfitters Association, 1 non-affiliated Guide Outfitter, 2 from the Cariboo Chilcotin Trapper’s Association and 2 reps. from the Cattlemen’s Association.
The purpose of this committee is to review any new proposals before the Ministry of Environment, Wildlife Branch which affect user groups. Since this committee first met, the Cariboo Chilcotin Guide Outfitters have brought to the table a proposal that would limit the number of Mule Deer bucks a resident hunter could harvest each year.
MULE DEER YEARLY BAG LIMIT
The proposal reads like this: That resident hunters be limited from two bucks bag limit down to one Mule Deer buck only per year.
I wish to advise all members and hunters at large, that the BCWF representatives have strongly opposed this proposal since it was first brought to the table in December 2004. In all there have been three meetings of this committee where the subject was discussed. The last meeting was on June 20, 2005 and the subject of Mule Deer harvest was the exclusive topic of discussion. At this meeting, the one CCGOA representative, Stuart Fraser stated that he has spoken to many resident hunters from the region and that they are very much in favour of reduce the bag limit from two bucks down to one. At no time has he been able to support this claim. We do not believe this to be factual.
The CCGOA have brought this proposal forward because they feel it is the only way to grow more and bigger bucks of 4 points or larger. This is in spite of the fact that Ministry of Environment staff have given us figures that show that the Mule Deer population is at an all time high in Region 5 and that the buck/doe ratio is healthy. During the spring of 2005, an inventory of Mule Deer was conducted in some management units in Region 5, and not only did this inventory show that the population was healthy, but it showed that some management units have reached the saturation point. That means that the habitat cannot sustain more deer and that many are facing starvation and disease because of over-population.
Still the CCGOA persist that we must come to a consensus on managing Mule Deer in Region 5 and their only idea is to reduce the bag limit of you, the resident hunter. They have not offered any other management ideas to achieve their goal of more and bigger bucks. Of course, their motivation is based on pure business for their foreign clients. The bigger and more big bucks in their hunting territory, the more they can cater to their clients and make more money.
It’s bad enough that the CCGOA has presented this proposal but to have the Ministry allow that the issue be brought up for discussion three times and again for the December meeting, causes us concern. Added to this concern is that the non-affiliated hunter rep. is in favour of this proposal. Don Evans has stated at the table that he represents 100,000 resident hunters. He wants us to come to a consensus on the issue and has accused us of not offering any alternatives. We don’t feel we need to offer an alternative.
Of interest in this province is that the Guide Outfitters of B.C. have become more aggressive in trying to take away hunting opportunities from all residents of this province. The Provincial Committee that was struck last year to deal with provincial allocations have had constant bombardment from the Guide Outfitters wishing to limit and reduce your hunting opportunities. We have learned that they have openly proposed to Government, the following:
That all general open seasons for all wildlife species be suspended.
Resident hunters be placed on Limited Hunting Entries for all species of wildlife in all regions of the province...
Restrict resident hunter’s access to crown land.
If resident hunters fail to harvest their Annual Allowable Harvest, that the surplus be then allocated to the Guides.
Once this surplus is passed on to the Guides, that the surplus numbers remain in the hands of the guides.
If this doesn’t cause you concern and enrage you, you need to wake up to the reality of today. If it does enrage you, then you must understand that you need to do something and do it soon. I will tell you what you can do – just keep reading.
The number of resident hunters has decreased significantly over the past 10 years and there are fewer animals being harvested by resident hunters. Many of the game species have healthy populations and there are no conservation concerns. In spite of this, Guide Outfitters want to take away your hunting opportunities for the benefit of their foreign clients and benefit financially from it.
The Guide Outfitters representatives sitting on the Provincial Allocation Committee have made statements to the fact that residents hunter of the Cariboo Chilcotin Region 5 are in favour of reduce the annual bag limit on Mule Deer from two bucks down to 1 buck. We have provided our BCWF reps written correspondence, refuting this claim.
In order to fight this proposal with facts, we have put out a petition. This petition reads:
We the residents of British Columbia wish to communicate to the Ministry of Environment "THAT WE CLEARLY SUPPORT THE PRESENT MULE DEER TWO (2) BUCK BAG LIMIT IN REGION 5"

WILDERNESS ACCESS RESTRICTIONS




Another issue that is proposed and coming on the table during the December meeting is the issue of access restrictions. This is another proposal tabled by the CCGOA. They wish to restrict access to much of the wilderness in Region 5 to resident hunters. This would mean that only the Guides and their clients could hunt in many of the areas they have their covetous eyes on.
A second petitions, which accompanies the Mule Deer petition, which reads.
We the residents of British Columbia wish to communicate to the Ministry of Environment, Wildlife Branch "THAT WE DO NOT SUPPORT ANY FURTHER ACCESS RESTRICTIONS FOR THE PURPOSE OF HUNTING IN REGION 5"
If you disagree with these proposals, you have to get out and sign the petitions. The petitions can be found at local sporting goods stores and variety stores in communities around the Cariboo Chilcotin. The petitions have also been circulated to other clubs in the region. We essentially have the month of November to gather as many signatures as possible.

If you would like clarification or more information on these issues or other topics, please contact me.


Jacques Drisdelle
President Region 5
British Columbia Wildlife Federation
201 – 197 N. Avenue,
Williams Lake, B.C. V2G 1Z5
Tel: 250-3989-8609
Cell: 250-398-0368
Email: jacques@bccf.com

[kutenay]

Good work, and i am really coming to respect the folks on this forum who seem able to actually address situations such as this without the constant boastful posing as the ultimate hunter/bushman that wrecks about every other Canadian site I have seen, except "gunsports". I have a couple of months committments here at home, but, right after Xmas, I will go to Victoria and talk to some folks I used to know in the Ministry. We can beat this, must beat this and should eliminate the foreign hunting while we are at it. If, they don't want to accept our softwood, etc, why should they be allowed to compete with us for OUR Sheep????

[Onesock]

How the hell come the guide outfitters have as much representation as the people that live in BC. They are a very small group telling the larger body of people what to do.NOT DEMOCRACY!!!!!!

[youngbuck]

I think this info should be forwarded to all hunting clubs across BC as well as across the western provinces.

As Hunter's we need to band together, as a whole, and express our opposition to such a proposal, now and in the future.

Sure, guides bring money in to the province but I'd venture to guess that resident hunter spend more a group that the foreign hunters

Unfortunately, I do not have the contacts nor the means to pass this information on.

Hopefully, someone on the site can do this.

YB

[huntwriter]

How the hell come the guide outfitters have as much representation as the people that live in BC. They are a very small group telling the larger body of people what to do.NOT DEMOCRACY!!!!!!
It is like in politics. For as long more people stay home instead of going to the voting box the government will rule as a minority. The same is with everything else if people do not speak up and send letters to the politicans or support an interest group their voice will not be heard and it will not count. In other words, these people are perfectly content to have a miority tell them what to do.

The sad fact is that the majority of the people take democracy for gratend or think that their voice will not count, which is wrong sometimes it needs only one more voice to turn the table. If only the outfitters and their business partners speak up but no one else then the government will hear only them. So start writing letters to the government and the MLA's it brings more there then complaining here about the lack of democracy. ;)

It only takes a few minutes to fire off 20 e-mails to different LMA's and other poiticans. Usually I write on standard letter which I change slightly (always address the person so it looks personal) and then I press "send". Like I said it only takes a few minutes but they can and often will make all the difference.

I am only a permanent recident here because I am married to a beautiful lady from B.C. But if elections are on in my home country of Switzerland or anything else that concerns me then I make my voice heard and for this I have to travel all the way to Vancouver to the Swiss Consulate but my democratic right and the freedom my forefathers gave their lives for makes the trip worthwhile for me.

[tmarschall]

Here is some more food for thought, or another 3 cents worth from south of the border. I hope it fits in here on this post, and I hope I can keep it short and to the point. It has to do with basic biology and genetics. The assumption I will make is that the outfitters want more trophy class animals so they can have satisfied clients, where the "average joe" wants to fill his freezer and have a chance at a big one now and then. With the 6-point rule for elk in many areas, and the 4-point rule for mulies, The best genes in the pool are being removed. Sure, they have a chance to breed and pass on the genes, but the "scum" genes (spike and less desirable antlers) hang around at the bottom of the pool. The only way the "scum genes get removed is by predation and automobiles. Maybe there are LEH draws for spikes of which I am not aware?? Bowhunters might remove a small percentage, but all totalled, good genes are more than likely being removed faster than the bad genes. Over time, the "scum- gened" antlers are more prevalent. That just might be the reason behind the requested reduction in bag limits for region 5.
When you folks head down to Victoria to make your voices heard, you might ask the powers to be why they insist on draining the gene pool of the good genes.
Have any of you heard of the reasoning behind the point restrictions? I mean solid scientific reasoning?
I have a draft copy of the elk management plan for Montana from 2004. The plan covers a lot of history on elk in the region since 1960. It shows a steady increase in the number of elk harvested as well as expanding range for elk. The management tools used to achieve the results are addressed in the plan. No where that I have found have they ever used a 6-point restriction in 45 years.
Well... any more and I would have to call it 4 cents worth. Hope some of this stirs some thought... Tom

[Fred]

Quite a few people that Ex and I talked to this season agree with you Tom.
Kill off all of the Tri-Palm bull Moose and the ones with more than 10 points PLUS lots of immature and what is left? For now many good breeders but not with the legal points required. In a few years when the breeders die off then what, a lack of good bulls? If there is a shortage(or percieved shortage) then the seasons in that MU can be curtailed and hunting is done away with. Or am I just to darned suspicious! :roll: Fred

[abbyfireguy]

I have had repeated run ins with several arrogant guides in 5-13..Always with loud mouthed yankee red-necks in tow..............
I'm just one of those guys that does not get intimidated by their aggressive bluffing and push right back..........I take photos and videos of offenders with regards to shooting bears in family units and using atv's in 5-13 which is not allowed..........One bold guide actually put huge concrete blocks across the road,funny how they disappeared on a lowbed and ended up back in Vanderhoof(helps to have well established friendships with local loggers).....
All I can say, is that most of the guides in region 5 make a wad of dough every year exclusively off the rich yankee macho-men........
They really get mad at me when I laugh at their trophy black bear kills that are nothing more than 18 month old cubs......
Some people just piss me off.............:mad:
I've hunted in 5-13 for 26 years now and there is more yank and european money coming into that area than I feel comfortable with....
Time to speak up, after all, we're the tax payers here,not them.
They've screwed up their own wildlife, don't let them but the boots to ours too......Just my 2 cents....

[J_T]

Huntwriter,
I don't think this is as much about "everyone speaking up" (I agree that can work) but rather about how the local/regional hunting opportunities committees are set up and who wields the power at these meetings. Obviously in the cariboo, the resident hunter is not sufficiently represented.

Tom,
I think you are correct, the reasoning (back door justification) for this is that the GO must be able to sell "trophy" hunts to be successful. Trophies are "created" through a wildlife management philosophy that addresses herd dynamics. Case in point, more animals, translates to a percentage more trophies.

I know in the East Kootenay, they are very happy with the harvest of 6 pt elk this past year, the culmination of a new strategy to increase overall herd populations. And man, there are elk everywhere there now.

JT

[tmarschall]

JT.... thats very interesting what you say about the 6-point season in the east kootenays. The past few years I was able to cam a lot of 5-pointers in that area. Do you have any hard statistics to support the claims of "more elk". Not that I doubt your word, Wayne has told me that harvests are up also. From the data I had seen from the late 90's and into the new century, they couldn't have gotten much lower. There is still no getting around the point that a 6-point season is removing the cream of the genes from the pool. I do understand also that the herd had a massive winter kill years ago that mandated some regulation changes. The 6-point regulation change was more than likely influenced by politics rather than science. In the historical background section of that elk management plan I mentioned in the last post, they had to implement reg changes, but like I said, they never went to a 6-point restriction. The closest they got to was what they described as a "brow tined bull". The bull had to have brow tines to be legal. Apparently they have always had some form of "either sex" season also. But the length of the season has been reduced greatly in the past 45 years.
I do hope the recent increase in the east kootenay elk herd continues. But I do think science will show in the long run the detriment to the herd from the 6-point restriction. It is definitely something woth looking at so changes can be made before more damage is done. Wlidlife management is a complex science. The information that filters down to the average hunter is quite often distorted. Our whitetail population here has suffered many years from the "theory"... don't shoot the spikes... they are just young and need a chance to grow!!! They did a study here with controlled breeding with spike whitetails, and they literally got to the point where the bucks would not produce any antlers at all. Yes... antlerless bucks was the result. So you see... even with millions of years of natural selection, inferior antler genes are still out there in the population. Even so, there still persists with many hunters the idea that spikes should not be hunted. Communication and getting the information to the people is where this forum and others like it can help.
Abby... it is no small wonder about the GO's being able to get clients. My experience has been the folks with all the bucks(dollars) seem to have all the green matter in their pockets and little or no grey matter between the ears.

[kutenay]

The situation concerning G/Os in B.C. is typical of the problems we have faced throughout our history, chiefly from Americans and the British, both of whom appear to feel a patriarchal and proprietary "ownership" of Canada. Before anyone starts any CGN style nonsense about "anti-Americanism", I will just say that I am of partial American and British extraction, so, this is about what is good for us, nothing else.

The 6-point reg. in the Kootenays came about in order to provide "hunter-opportunity days" for the maximum number of hunters during the dark days when mismanagement had decimated the Elk throughout the Kootenays. It was and is an understandable reaction of a severely underfunded and understaffed Wildlife Branch to the demands of B.C. hunters for more Elk hunting and probably the G/Os had some influence as well.

I seriously doubt that this regulation will make any major difference to the antler quality of Elk in that area over the forseeable future as the terrain, access and forest cover limit the kill here in a far different way than is the case in other jurisdictions. Since a signifigant part of the actual breeding of estrous cows is often done by "satellite bulls", especially in higher population densities characteristic of roadless areas, I am sceptical about the impact of shooting 6-pointers on Kootenay Elk.

The 'limiting factors" with respect to Elk population densities and "trophy" bull population ratios in the Kootenays are more complex than many people realize and predation, habitat modification through wildfire suppression as well as poaching and limited access to hunters are more important, overall, than the current antler restrictions are. In other, more easily hunted regions, the concerns about the 6-point reg. are more relevant than in the Kootenays.

In any event, Americans and other foreigners ARE shooting a significant percentage of the annual harvest of B.C. game animals and this directly impacts on B.C. resident's success. This is the first problem that should be addressed in order to improve hunting for us as the land, game, water and everything else BELONGS to us. This coming spring, I will see the 136th anniversary of the arrival of my first, direct, family ancestor in Victoria, B.C. and we have lived here ever since. Simply put, my rights here exceed those of ANY foreigner and so do those of ANY other British Columbian and it's time that we stood up for ourselves and kept what is ours for ourselves. Canada for Canadians!

I will edit this to add that if you check internet sites for Guide/Outfitters in B.C., it becomes obvious that a large percentage of them are now owned and/or controlled by Americans and some of them actually list hunting here in B.C. by contacting them in the U.S.A. Is this what we want, rich Yanks having de facto control over our finest hunting? I think that ALL Guide/Outfitters and Transporters should HAVE to be native-born Canadians and NO investment or interest in this "industry" should be allowed, this is OUR land.

[J_T]

Tom,

Do you have any hard statistics to support the claims of "more elk".

The initial estimate of elk populations in the EK was 16,000 (Forbes et al & Rideke) in a given area. Within that same area today estimates are between 25,000 and 29,000 (although no extensive study comparative to the first has been carried out).

Kutenay, while much of what you say is correct with respect to the issues pertaining to elk numbers, the mismanagement of the elk was - in part - also due to a series of transitional issues. The Wildlife manager of the day (Demarche) implemented the LEH cow season to address elk/rancher conflict. The cow LEH should have been monitored more closely and should have been suspended a couple of years sooner than it was. Before population numbers became depleted.

When Forbes came in, his strategy was to spend time, money and effort on habitat, addressing the forest ingrowth and transitional and winter range issues, in an attempt to increase herd popultations. The new strategy was to manage the elk/rancher conflict differently (fencing) and recognize that a 3 year old elk on good habitat could produce a 6 pt rack. In addition his strategy was also to separate out the "homestead" elk and migratory backcountry elk.

This in fact is the case. I don't know if there is a 6 year old elk in the trench of the EK:p . But I do know there are a lot of elk, and a lot of 6 pts. The increase in elk numbers has increased the number of 6pts.

FYI, I am fourth generation Kootenay, with family holdings in both the West Kootenay and in the East Kootenay south of Fort Steele.

JT

[BOOMSTICK]

I have been guiding for near 20 years, It's a great job most people who do it love it. But first and foremost I am a BC Resident Hunter, and if any G/O tries to stop me from hunting on crown land there is gonna be Hell To Pay! I have had a few run-ins with different outfitters while hunting up north, all you have to do is stand your ground. I have ZERO tolerance for that Sh*t. As a Canadians, we have the right to hunt where we choose in our own province. There are a few Guide territories owned by Canadians, but most are owned by foriegn investors.

In the early 80's, my uncle and two other men went into partnership to buy a Guide Territory that was for sale. Between the 3 of them they had come up with the 1.2 million to buy it. Everyone thought it would be awesome to have three local boys own one of the biggest areas in B.C. But when they tried to buy it, they were flat out REFUSED and their money was not accepted! The govt wouldn't allow BC residents to own it. The territory was later sold to a German investor for less than 1 million. Corruption? You make the call.

[tmarschall]

Kutenay... very interesting. Ihave an appreciation for what you are saying about foreign money having its influence on your hunting rights. We have a similar problem with a different twist. Having 90% private lands here, you pretty much have to BUY a lease in order to hunt. The state still "owns" the game, so legally what you are leasing is referred to as tresspass rights. Foreign (outside of Texas) money has driven the costs thru the roof. In worst cases, the ranchers have high fenced their lands and set up a mini hunting kingdom. Does this sound anything like what the GO's are striving for in exclusive rights to their territories?
As far as the reasoning behind the 6-point season, I think we are in some kind of agreement. You say it was implemented to provide hunting days, that does not sound like a scientific basis to me. As far as the impact of the 6-point restriction on the elk population, yes... it is difficult to say just how significant it might be. I'm just saying that it is not good biology to restrict hunting to removal of the cream of the genes. Given that the change was implemented for whatever reason, keeping the restriction is of more concern than the fact that it was implemented. If the herd has recovered, it might be time to chage the restriction. Changing the quantity of elk harvested by foreigners vs residents is another matter dealing with politics rather than biology. As stated here, getting the people together to make your voices heard is the key to that problem.
As far as foreign investment in guide areas on crown land, that is truely dispicable. I could just see someone from New york claiming some of the East Texas state owned forest land as their hunting area. The locals would definitely rise in revolt... armed revolt most likely!!!
JT..... The stats are somewhat informative. More important is what you said about the differences between the back country and the homestead elk. There are major differences and they should be managed differently. The 6-point restriction is but a small piece of the puzzle. It should be recognized as "bad science" and make appropriate changes with all factors considered. There are plenty of examples to follow that have shown results over time, getting them accepted and implemented... thats the problem... thanks again for the posting... Tom

[kutenay]

To get back to this VERY important topic, I see certain parallels between this and the whole gunbanning issue. It seems to me that both the Liberals in Ottawa and in Victoria are dominated by corporate interests that want to sell out OUR ownership of OUR land for the profits of a small number of corporate elitists who owe no loyalty to anyone except themselves. This has been a major conponent of the historical development of Canada and we ordinary Canucks always end up on the sh***y end of the stick.

Hunting rare "trophy" animals is a BIG business and it spawns some truely despicable types, such as those born here who will actually attempt to restrict the hunting rights-gun ownership of their fellow Canucks in order to make money and/or kiss a** to those who bolster their pathetic egos by congratulating them on the game they claim to have shot (usually on private or restricted lands over baits).

WE really NEED to revitalize our various organizations, such as the BCWF and the various gunrights groups; we also need to become, as Huntwriter so eloquently states, MUCH more aggressive in protecting what is OURS, not the GOABC's, foreign trophy hunter's or special interst group's. I will attend the meeting of the Lower Mainland BCWF in the early new year and I hope to meet some of you there, in person. Remember the old platitude, hopefully true in this case, "things are darkest, just before the dawn".

[Islandeer]

In order for our wildlife tobe supported and managed properly we need lots of resident hunters outthere buying tags and licsences. This equates todollers for thewildlife branch. having elitest 6 point seasons where very few hunters can harvest really does't help.a balanced season that harvests all age groups and sexes ina careful and measured manner serves the elkand the bc hunter well. Your right the guides or most of them want us out of the picture. Time to stand up and be counted. Oh yeah the part about spikes breeding spikes,very far fetched,most bucks born late will be spikes the first year,thendepending on feed,winter and genetics willgo up from there.

[tmarschall]

Islanddeer.... I couldn't agree more about need for harvesting from all age groups. I have a question about your comment on the spikes. Are you referring to elk spikes or whitetail spikes? I'm not totally familiar with elk spikes/genetics. From what I have seen in the field, pretty much all elk go thru a spike progression as they age. Whitetails on the other hand should be able to produce many points their first year, regardless if they were born late or early the previous season. At least thats what all the studies I have read indicate. If you have other info, I would love to hear about it... Tom

[Clint_S]

I think a lot of folks have a very thin grasp on genetics and confuse phenotype (visible physical differences) with genotype (invisible physical differences). Targeting an age class of animals is sound wildlife management and really should have little or no influence on the genetic makeup of a group of animals unless it is in effect for an extremely long time and even then I am not sure it would skew the gene pool in any particular direction.
A spike bull and a world record elk may very well share the same genes and targeting an age class definitely does not mean you are targeting "the cream of the genes"
By limiting the most successful group of hunters (rifle hunters) to a group of the smartest target species (mature bulls) you are only levelling the playing field and allowing a large diverse gene pool of immature bulls to live to breeding age. It is only by allowing these bulls to reach maturity that we can even see what the gene pool holds.

[Islandeer]

Clint,you are way up on your genetics,very interesting stuff. Of course on most elk habitats the majority of the bulls would have the same blood. Andwhen all of the big guys are scrappin and chasin the smaller bulls get in there and get the job done. My mian point iswe need more people hunting,so we need to manage our elk for this purpose. Those opposed to hunting have a hard time arguing against hunting for meat which traces all of our heritage. when you couple this with involving our youth to become true stewards of our enviornment then our movement Ithink gains credibility. I want to kill a large bull one day too, but think that boosting our numbers is more important.

[Islandeer]

Clint,you are way up on your genetics,very interesting stuff. Of course on most elk habitats the majority of the bulls would have the same blood. Andwhen all of the big guys are scrappin and chasin the smaller bulls get in there and get the job done. My mian point iswe need more people hunting,so we need to manage our elk for this purpose. Those opposed to hunting have a hard time arguing against hunting for meat which traces all of our heritage. when you couple this with involving our youth to become true stewards of our enviornment then our movement Ithink gains credibility. I want to kill a large bull one day too, but think that boosting our numbers is more important.

[tmarschall]

Clint, you are so right about the lack of understanding between genotype and phenotype. And yes... targeting any particular phenotype or agr group would take years to have an affect on the gene pool. The question I have, has there been any studies to determine that elk have inferior genotypes as they have determined for whitetails???? The way I see it, the 6 point restriction should allow the bulls to reach maturity, but as soon as they do, they are prime targets, thats not the way nature intended. Harvesting from all age groups more closely resembles natural mortality. Every less than 6 point bull that gets harvested, increases the possibility for a superior genotype 6-point to survive and reproduce another year. With the 6-point restriction, harvesting only mature bulls opens up the opportunity for lesser genotypes to reproduce.
The bottom line for you folks up there is you want management plans that will increase your hunting opportunities and fill your freezers. The harvest data from neighboring states to the south show that their management plans have done just that for their hunters, and no where have I heard of a 6-point restriction being implemented to reach those goals. In Montana, antlerless harvests have exceeded bull harvests from the mid 90's to 2004. Total elk harvest has increased from 13,000 in the early 80's to almost 30,000 in 2004 (draft elk management plan for Montana, 2004). Be it the G/O's or the ranchers who have overly influenced BC's elk management in the past, I hope this forum can help the hunters take the lead in the future... Tom
PS: it might be a bit outdated, but here is some interesting reading I found:
http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/wld/elk/executivesummary/5executivesummary.html

[timber]

At frist i was shocked and now I just ----- ....well they did this and I herd that And we all worked for outfitters as guides so we know all. READ THE SYNOPSIS. if I even thought of doing any of the stuff like flat tires road blocks, come on,they wood pull my licence ASAP. I know all the res hunter in my lease i help them they help me its be great. outfitter or res hunter we all have the same rules if it open for you its open for me. if its closed for you its closed for me.if you cant go there nether can I. LEH if the res hunters get 150 tags I get 10 . Maybe i think your loggers or truckers sending all or stuff over seas or you going to stop.We all have the same rules lets get a long and figer it out with out the mud sling.

[tmarschall]

Timber.... thats one thing that I think this forum can do, help people figger out whats wrong, if anything, and help folks reccommend solutions. What you say about all hunters having the same rules brings up an important issue. Why should you as an outfitter have to pay millions of dollars to hunt a specific area? Why should G/O's be issued X number of tags when the BC resident only gets one or two? From what I know of G/O's here in the states, they don't have to buy an area of governemnt land to hunt in. In some cases they lease land from private owners, but the fee is nominal compared to the purchase of guide territories. In any event, the government is kept out of the circle. Guides are not issued tags for their clients. Each hunter has to apply to the state for tags. The states set how many tags go to resident hunters and how many go to non-residents. I could be worng about some of this, but thats the way it should be. Each hunter is on a level playing field. Its my understanding that non-resident hunters are only allowed in where resident hunters have shown they can not harvest enough animals to control the herd. G/O's here still charge plenty for their services, there is plenty of work involved as you well know. But by cutting out the need to "purchase" a hunting area, the influence on game management laws by big corporations is greatly reduced if not eliminated. The G/O's cannot attract clients by the number of tags they are issued, they attract clients solely by the service and success they have had in the past. The non-resident hunter gets his tag from the state and then chooses his guide. Elimination of the "sale" of guide areas and issuance of tags directly to ALL hunters will level the playing field and get everyone working towards the same goal.... more and better game for everyone. Kutenay has mentioned the disgust of Canada selling out to foreign interests, thats exactly what the sale of guide areas is doing. Get rid of this practice and BC residents will once again "OWN' their wildlife. Within a few seasons, appropriate levels of "sharing" with foreigners can be established. My guess is that in time business for G/O's will increase due to increased availability of animals.
No intention to sling any mud, just trying to get to the truth of the matter, if I am wrong about something, get it out factually so folks can make their own conclusions and take the right actions. The sharing of ideas and management practices across borders is great. Wildlife management is very complex, no single action will fix all. Lots of little fixes have to be implemented and adjusted as natural forces change population dynamics. Well... I am rambling on a bit now... what say you??? Tom

[timber]

W0P? that inner voice again.Im not the right guy to explain this with my one finger tiping but I will give it a try as i see it. I used to think the same so I hopped the fence, but the grass is not so green on this side.this is what i know .GOD the crown owns all.( see title) in this case the regional manager for the region he is the lunch room monitor, his job is to make as much $$$$$$$ for god, try to keep the non-hunting /votes ,then you and me happy.now that I've seen both sides its quite a fair split, I think more in favour on the res side.The land is not owned by the outfitter, it is a certificate that basicly says(A) i am a BC res over 19 and know the wildlife act inside out(B)not to block or damage road, trail, airstrip,
watercourse or property. No other outfitter can hunt in that area. Its' crown land residents can go where ever he/ she wants to go within the law,they will pull your licence if I tried any of that stuff. that means it's gone, no more licence,so why risk it on road block or flat tires, GOABC in my eyes, and yes i am a member but not a happy one, as i didn't have 10,000.000 cash to give to the goverment to hold at no interst just in case a road washes out or some thing. do all that much for us.they seem like a union i guess. i really dont know much on how they work. they as any other group work for their members, they dont get tags to give out.they go to goverment meetings and put their 2 cents in, you can do the same if you have the time, i don't.Tags, I think it's very fair. In my area its LEH for all big bulls. 2 points are open for all of us, LEH bulls my quota is about 7.2% of what the res gets. over a 3 years the res gets 450 I get 33. that's 92.8% for the res and to keep quality hunting opportunities for the res the regional manager gives you (yes mark) region 7 calf slauter.I don't like it but im not wining either and if my tags go up so does the leh tags, there is no special tags for goabc that i know of. i think it's all fair.But just like gun control there are bad apples that make us look bad.

[tmarschall]

Good info.... I'll have to digest this for a while... I'll get back to you soon... Tom

[tangozulu]

At frist i was shocked and now I just ----- ....well they did this and I herd that And we all worked for outfitters as guides so we know all. READ THE SYNOPSIS. if I even thought of doing any of the stuff like flat tires road blocks, come on,they wood pull my licence ASAP. I know all the res hunter in my lease i help them they help me its be great. outfitter or res hunter we all have the same rules if it open for you its open for me. if its closed for you its closed for me.if you cant go there nether can I. LEH if the res hunters get 150 tags I get 10 . Maybe i think your loggers or truckers sending all or stuff over seas or you going to stop.We all have the same rules lets get a long and figer it out with out the mud sling.


Hi BC Outfitter

I live in a small northern BC town that is base for 4 to 5 outfitters. the number depends whether an area is getting split or put back together.

Right now out of the 4, only 1 belongs to a BC born and raised family. This is a second generation outfit.
A new guy from Korea just bought out 2 past outfitters. One of these former outfitters went back to texas after being convicted of shooting 3 or 4 illegal rams over the past few years.
In the past we have had outfitters literally skip the country after super cub tracks were found near poisoned moose carcusses. There was several of these poison sites and they killed massive amounts of game not just the wolves they were intended for.
The Outfitter who has a fly in only area has managed to keep all resident hunters out with an agreement with the local air taxis. In a sence he has determined thar resident hunters are the enemy. Funny cause I always thought he was my neighbor.
The other thing that is completely out of control is the outfitter use of airplanes to spot game. Surely this should not be necessary.
Of our 4 outfits, 2 leave the country an day or two after the season and come back a day or two before the next.
I'm sure you must know that BC BORN AND RAISED OUTFITTERS ARE GETTIN PRETTY SCARCE.
I wish there were more like you.

[timber]

hi, well im glad they got this guy. My self and this is just me.I got 500 grand 7 years of work at this point with little $$ between liceses yousre fee's leases and just gov BS they flease my 20 to 30 grand a year easy if not more.sorry just cring ,back to the storey.I know I would not jeperdise all this.one infracktion on the guides licese like a barbless hock they can pull his licese. if you know stuff report them. it looks like its all going any how, look in form main land hunting (good or bad) nice chatting with you