Pigeon on Crossbows

[Fisher-Dude]

Thomas gave a really good talk on the use and acceptance of crossbows today on "Canada in the Rough." He said that "purist archers" who call down those who use crossbows are worse than any anti-hunter, because they are hunters attacking hunters. It was an excellent editorial. I hope certain "purists" on here saw it, and maybe learned a bit from it.

[Blondemenace]

It was a very good point this morning. Very true in fact that hunters should not be attacking other hunters. The Crossbow is like a compound and a gun combined. I dont have one myself, but i think the idea is very cool. It invites alot more people into our world of hunting, and i think that it awsome!

[Bow Walker]

Propeling an arrow that has feather or vanes on it by the use of a string IS archery, no 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'.

[scallywag]

PROUD CROSSBOW OWNER!!!! ahhhh feels like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

[Ron.C]

Here we go again:rolleyes:

[horshur]

fish you do know that most shows on TV are paid advertisments from industry such as guide outfitting or the manufacture.........I would be inclined to suggest he be a bit bias.

some see the crossbow as the death of bow only seasons with technology closing the gap on any percieved handicap.

it is not unreasonable.

[Blainer]

Thomas gave a really good talk on the use and acceptance of crossbows today on "Canada in the Rough." He said that "purist archers" who call down those who use crossbows are worse than any anti-hunter, because they are hunters attacking hunters. It was an excellent editorial. I hope certain "purists" on here saw it, and maybe learned a bit from it.
Took note of that myself and assumed someone would post a thread.
I agree with what was said.
I also noted the score in the wings game and I'm some what surprised a thread was not started.lol

[Stone Sheep Steve]

While I agree with what he said....I'm thinking that with the way how he has demonstrated that he shoots a compound, the compound sponser pulled out:lol:.

SSS

[Gateholio]

While I agree with what he said....I'm thinking that with the way how he has demonstarted that he shoots a compound, the compound sponser pulled out:lol:.

SSS

Ouch!!
:p:p

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Ouch!!
:p:p

I certainly meant that "tongue and cheek" as he shot a lot more game with a bow than I have.
Please don't fry me;-).

SSS

[Ambush]

Propeling an arrow that has feather or vanes on it by the use of a string IS archery, no 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'.

Not speaking for or against, but to round out this statement:

Propelling a piece of lead with gunpowder down a barrel IS rifle hunting, no 'if' 'ands' or 'buts'.
Of course the fellow with the bean-field magnum and turret scope has the edge over a open sighted muzzle loader man, or the shotgun slug-slinger.

If I was really worried about just getting an animal before the next guy, I would try and find my gun safe key and leave the bow for 3D.
I hunt the way I hunt because thats the way I choose to hunt.

The bush is full of bowhunters around here from Sept. 1st-9th. Not too many after that.

I'll through a twist into the debate. How about crossbows allowed in a Bow only season, in areas that will also later open to firearms, but not in specific bow only areas, such as urban settings or road corridors. That should satisfy the people opposed to the oppurtunists shooting crossbows from truck windows at "tame" animals.

[Fisher-Dude]

some see the crossbow as the death of bow only seasons with technology closing the gap on any percieved handicap.

it is not unreasonable.

Crossbow hunting success compared to long bows or compound bows is within one or two percent. What advantage are you dreaming up? ;-)

[Fisher-Dude]

I'll through a twist into the debate. How about crossbows allowed in a Bow only season, in areas that will also later open to firearms, but not in specific bow only areas, such as urban settings or road corridors. That should satisfy the people opposed to the oppurtunists shooting crossbows from truck windows at "tame" animals.

Is there a problem where you live with people shooting crossbows from truck windows at tame animals? Have you witnessed this, and if so, what was the outcome in court when you testified? Ahh, right.

Amazing how people pull stuff out of their asses to support their position in a discussion. :neutral:

[boxhitch]

some see the crossbow as the death of bow only seasons with technology closing the gap on any percieved handicap.

it is not unreasonable.This may ring true for openings created for bows based solely on the fact they are different than rifles, nothing to do with target, timing or zone.
If the bow season is created specifically where rifles are unacceptable, then crossbows would fit the same criteria, silent, short range etc
If for the former, then maybe the bow season wasn't justified to begin with.

[ratherbefishin]

I shoot a crossbow for one simple reason-accuracy-and while I have no doubt a skilled archer could equal that of a crossbow, I aren't in that catagory-and I have this thing about not wounding an animal.

[horshur]

Crossbow hunting success compared to long bows or compound bows is within one or two percent. What advantage are you dreaming up? ;-)

well I think modern compound is not a hell of a lot different than a crossbow.........

[horshur]

the bow guys have given up trying to explain...I have not bowhunted in 25 years.

Fisher just stirring the shit as usual.........lot more important deals right now if you ask me.........

I listened to that pigeon deal......sat is giving us a free preview on some hunting shows as well...........seen Noslers show......kiwi hunt for tar..chamois fallow deer.............three days of hunting by refrence not much more than a couple hours per animal....all accessed by a helicopter.

new zealand may be GOABC vision of BC

pigeon and his designer house and camo boat and camo clothes and camo quad and shiny new shit to grind hamburger and on and on and on... the commercial industry is bent on ruining it for the average guy..........sorry...if thats our future I am done... I'll take up knitting.
shameful!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[boxhitch]

Online for those that missed it. Good on Pigeon, someone truly speaking out for Canada's hunting heritage.
http://www.canadaintherough.com/gear_show.html?s=5&e=16

[Onesock]

Number 1- I THINK that he has a major x-bow manufacturer as a sponsor and he would probably say black is white if they wanted him to.
Number 2- By watching him shoot a compound bow My guess would be that a compound bow couldn't kill anything. How wrong.
Number 3- The guy is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[J_T]

the bow guys have given up trying to explain...I have not bowhunted in 25 years.

Fisher just stirring the shit as usual.........lot more important deals right now if you ask me.........


Yup on both counts. Most bowhunters have experienced both rifle and bow. The same can't be said for rifle hunters. I'm not picking a fight, just pointing out a bully. There is a place for both rifle and bow. FD is only trying to stir the pot. Sorry, we succumb, we'll let him be the school yard bully. Doesn't make him right. Just successfully more aggressive. Not exactly supporting unity amongst hunters, which I believe is one of his platforms. How many bowhunting advocates have been chased from this site?

The UBBC support all legal forms of archery tackle in BC.

[T300WSM]

Ok Iam not a crossbow owner, I have a compound, but is the crossbow something NEW?????

CROSSBOW FAQ - History

Last-modified: 24 November 2004
HISTORY:
Literary and physical evidence suggest that the crossbow originated in China during the 4th century BC, though a type of crossbow called the gastraphetes may have been independently invented in Greece at about the same period. It wasn't until the 10th or 11th centuries AD that the crossbow became a significant military weapon in Europe. It passed from general military service in the 16th century, but its use for hunting and target shooting has continued to the present day. The majority of the following chronology is abridged from GUIDE TO THE CROSSBOW by Paterson:
341 BC
Earliest reliable record of crossbow use at battle of Ma-Ling in China.
228 BC
Earliest crossbow artifact, a bronze lock mechanism from the tomb of Yu Wang.
0-100 AD
Heron of Alexandria describes gastraphetes.
300-700
Roman carvings of crossbows.
385
Vegetius mentions crossbows in DE RE MILITARIA.
1066
Crossbows introduced to England by Normans.
1096
Anna Comnena describes Norman crossbows.
1100-1200
Composite crossbow lath appears.
1139
2nd Lateran Council interdict forbids use of crossbow among Christians.
1192
Crusader victory at Jaffa aided by crossbows.
1314
Earliest reliable record of steel lath.
1346
Genoese crossbowmen defeated at Crecy by English longbowmen.
1373
Earliest illustration of cranequin.
1503
First of many English laws restricting possession and use of crossbows.
1550-1600
Firearms replace crossbows in most Western armies.
1860
Photographic evidence from Chinese shows repeating crossbows still used there as military weapons.
1939-45
"Arrowspeed" crossbow used by Australian commandos in Pacific Theatre.
1945-1975
Crossbows employed by Montagnard peoples and US special forces during Vietnam conflict.
1960?-present
Crossbows used to shoot anesthetic darts for capturing and treating wildlife; also used to obtain tissue samples from marine animals for obtaining genetic information.

[Ambush]

Is there a problem where you live with people shooting crossbows from truck windows at tame animals? Have you witnessed this, and if so, what was the outcome in court when you testified? Ahh, right.

Go back and reread my post. Where did it say I saw that? I said it should satisfy the people that are thinking that this happens. You really should get a wife to fight with.:rolleyes:

Amazing how people pull stuff out of their asses to support their position in a discussion. :neutral:

This topic has never been a "discussion". It's always presented as a point of contention. One of the two extremes will bring it up and the other will hammer away at it, and all the people in the middle with something sensible to say will stay out of it. And even though I'm not that sensible, that is what I shall do from now on.

For your records FD, I have owned two crossbows, many,many,many guns and now I only hunt with a bow. So what? I'm still just a hunter. Why hate me?
And, if you want me to listen, don't talk down to me or accuse me of lying.
Done with this subject.

[jrjonesy]

To me, Pigeons point (from what I remember) was regardless of your equipment, you're all hunters so don't fight amongst yourselves and provide something to fuel the antis fire. In other words, the crossbow is legal and is effecient so accept it.

I agree with his point but I think that most crossbow controversy is centered around their use in or prohibited use in special seasons....not their proficiency as a hunting weapon.

I've got mixed feelings about this that can go either way but I don't believe that the hunting community arguing or disagreeing about weapons allowed in special seasons is something that will fuel the antis fire.

[325]

I really don't see the advantage of a crossbow over a compound. In fact I think that crossbows are much more similar to compounds (with peep, release, etc) in ease of use and learning curve than either are to recurves or longbows. If any group should be bitching, it should be the traditional guys.

[Fisher-Dude]

Who said I hated bowhunters Ambush? And JT seems to think the same way. I'm hoping someone could learn a thing or two about acceptance, and you guys get all defensive and call me divisive. Seems you're the ones with the problem accepting other hunters, and have such closed minds that you can't learn from what was said on the show.

[huntwriter]

Thomas gave a really good talk on the use and acceptance of crossbows today on "Canada in the Rough." He said that "purist archers" who call down those who use crossbows are worse than any anti-hunter, because they are hunters attacking hunters. It was an excellent editorial. I hope certain "purists" on here saw it, and maybe learned a bit from it.

I missed the show this morning but I knew that he would talk about crossbows and the "purists" one of these days on his show. Thomas read my column, "Where I stand on Crossbows (http://www.othmarvohringer.com/articles/Where_I_stand_on_Crossbows.html)" last year and then contacted me to tell me how much he liked reading it and if he could use parts of it for a segment in his show about crossbows.

That email followed a phone conversation during which I gave him a few hints on how I felt about hunters bashing other hunters and that I often think that hunters are their own worst enemy.

I cautioned Thomas at the time that he would get as much hate mail from “purists” as I did when the column was first published in 2007. Lol.

Edit: I just watched the video and see that he used a lot of what I have talked about on the phone with him. Maybe I should send him a consulting bill.:lol:

[Onesock]

FD-Talk about pulling something out of you ass. Yours must be empty by now, I would hope.

[OOBuck]

Here we go again:rolleyes:
Ya don't say.....:roll:

[Onesock]

;)I thought this was over. OO and I were even starting to get along.

[horshur]

If we would go back to the original "spirit" of the bow seasons it would be easy to see how far they have come......

there intent has been totally lost by technology...a person has to go way back before they even existed here in BC to see the intent.

Technology blurs the distinction and in this case wipes it out....just like the newest in line muzzleloaders.

IF we refuse to limit ourselves we will be limited........

What a profound possibility that if I could handicap myself enough there may not need to be short seasons and LEH and point restrictions or even antlered season.........WE COULD HUNT!!!! with very few limits.

technology has not provided freedom.....it enslaves us.

Look at the many slaves of the banks because of the need to purchase it, update it, replace it.

it is possible by handwork and knowledge to build yourself a weapon from local materials of wood and sinew....arrows of the same.. flights gathered from a near a Canada's nest... tied on with sinew from last years muley buck......the bow backed with sinew collected from seasons pasts success.........

I doubt ever that many will understand..............yet even I can see the value.

[J_T]

Who said I hated bowhunters Ambush? And JT seems to think the same way. I'm hoping someone could learn a thing or two about acceptance, and you guys get all defensive and call me divisive. Seems you're the ones with the problem accepting other hunters, and have such closed minds that you can't learn from what was said on the show.
Nope. I never said you don't like bowhunters. Just that you like to poke sticks in hornet's nests. I wasn't being defensive. Perhaps it's your approach.

[bearhunter338-06]

Now for all you people against crossbows how about this. I shot a bow for years and enjoyed it. Now doe to a shoulder injury I can no longer pull a bow, so would I be considered an asshole for wanting to use a cross bow when i use to use a bow.

[Onesock]

I don't think you would be considered an asshole for having to use a x-bow because of a shoulder injury, attitude..........

[Riverratz]

Have been following this thread with some interest. It is unfortunate there are opposing opinions on what particular equipment should be used to hunt.
Not taking a side on this, but here's a bit of history;
Some 15 years or so ago, MOE introduced a "primitive weapons" moose (any bull) season in 7-32 (Chetwynd area). There may have been other regions as well, I don't recall. This was a special season that was separate from the general open rifle season, that is, "primitive weapons only".
The regulations were fairly loosely worded. As I recall the weapons permitted were "muzzle loaders" and "archery" which included both long & compound bows. I already had a compound that I had used to archery hunt deer in the Okanagan and black bear in the interior. I had rifle hunted for 25+ years and wanted to add some more personal challenge to my hunts. I decided to get into the blackpowder game to take advantage of the primitive season. At Christmas, my wife bought me a gorgeous Thompson Center Hawken .54 cal. in kit form. Several months of work over the winter and the rifle was finished, off to the range and a few more months of learning to shoot it, accuracy, etc. Even got in to bullet casting. It was great, I loved it. Then the hunting regs. came out......the primitive weapons season wasn't there. I went in to the local MOE office and politely inquired with the reg. biologist as to why it wasn't in the regs., hoping it was a misprint. No such luck.
The bio. told me that the season had been removed because;
- hunters were using then newly developed "in-line" muzzleloaders with scopes, and X-bows, some with scopes.
- it was MOE's position that these weapons gave hunters an unfair advantage over the quarry, and that these weapons went against the intent of the primitive weapons season.
- their view was that primitive weapons included side-lock percussion or flint lock rifles AND long bows, including compounds......not in-lines or X-bows.
- an early "archery only" season was being implemented, albeit for immature bulls only, as a concession.
- hunters were welcome to use muzzle loaders and/or bows during the normal general open season.

I pointed out that the regs. (at that time) did not clearly define what constituted a muzzle loader or archery, his answer was a shoulder shrug and pretty much a "that's the way it is". He did add that they (MOE) would consider revisiting the issue if they received enough requests and demand from the hunting population to warrant it. All this time later, and "primitive weapons" seasons still don't exist. Whether that is the result of poor demand I have no idea, and is anyone's guess ?
We all like new technology, but as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, sometimes new technology leads to the undoing of the past. In this case, new technology completely erased what had once existed. Let's be honest with ourselves here, new hunting technology has one purpose - to enhance the odds of hunter success. Some view these advances as unfair advantage to the hunter, and thus we have to bear more arguments against hunting in general. Beware - new tech. is a double edged sword, as evidenced above.

Personally, I would love to see the return of "primitive weapons" seasons, with clear definitions of what constitutes those weapons. Better to have a season with limitations and rules than no season at all. As long as there is bickering in the ranks, nothing is going to change. It is clearly obvious in this thread each individual has his or her own definition of what should or shouldn't be. Will the bickering and arguing cease? Can hunters as a group come to a common consensus, (perhaps not perfect for every individual) but at least an agreement, and make a group presentation to reinstate these seasons?
One can always hope, but I doubt it.

[40inchtwister]

I just got a new cross bow ... top of the line .. the box says it shoots tight groups at 300 yards im hitting 2 foot groups at 400 yards with it.... I cant wait for archery season!!!

[huntwriter]

Then the hunting regs. came out......the primitive weapons season wasn't there. I went in to the local MOE office and politely inquired with the reg. biologist as to why it wasn't in the regs., hoping it was a misprint. No such luck.
The bio. told me that the season had been removed because;
- hunters were using then newly developed "in-line" muzzleloaders with scopes, and X-bows, some with scopes.
- it was MOE's position that these weapons gave hunters an unfair advantage over the quarry, and that these weapons went against the intent of the primitive weapons season.
- their view was that primitive weapons included side-lock percussion or flint lock rifles AND long bows, including compounds......not in-lines or X-bows.
- an early "archery only" season was being implemented, albeit for immature bulls only, as a concession.
- hunters were welcome to use muzzle loaders and/or bows during the normal general open season.



This was not entirely the MOE’s opinion. Hunters loudly complaining, badmouthing each other is a better word to describe what went on, shaped the MOE’s opinion more than anything else on that subject. Finally they got so tired of that constant pickering and finger pointing that the MOE canceled the season.

I have talked to the local MOE not so long ago about that topic and he told me what the real reason for the cancellation of the special season was. His words. “Hunters couldn’t get along and were not willing to find a middle way so we found a solution for the problem by getting rid of the dam thing. We have neither time nor the inclination to listen day in and day out to the barrage of complaints and wining.” I have often said and no doubt will say it many times more. “Sometimes hunters are their own worst enemy.”

[Riverratz]

I have talked to the local MOE not so long ago about that topic and he told me what the real reason for the cancellation of the special season was. His words. “Hunters couldn’t get along and were not willing to find a middle way so we found a solution for the problem by getting rid of the dam thing. We have neither time nor the inclination to listen day in and day out to the barrage of complaints and wining.” I have often said and no doubt will say it many times more. “Sometimes hunters are their own worst enemy.” [/QUOTE]

That was obviously the "other part of the story" the local reg. bio. didn't tell me at the time. Can't blame him, he probably didn't want to risk another verbal debate from another hunter, although I wouldn't have........but he didn't know me personally either.
I agree entirely with your assessment. For the life of me I just can't understand why people have to indulge themselves in petty bickering instead of paying attention to the big picture. Ridiculous !!! 'Nuff said on this topic

[OOBuck]

I don't think you would be considered an asshole for having to use a x-bow because of a shoulder injury, attitude..........

If I used a crossbow just to pi$$ an a$$hole off would I be considered and a$$hole also? :tongue: LOL!!!:smile:

[The Hermit]

I just got a new cross bow ... top of the line .. the box says it shoots tight groups at 300 yards im hitting 2 foot groups at 400 yards with it.... I cant wait for archery season!!!

A hahahahahaha!! Finally someone with a sense of humor!!!

[Dragginbait]

If I used a crossbow just to pi$$ an a$$hole off would I be considered and a$$hole also? :tongue: LOL!!!:smile:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_2_12.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxpt425YYCA)And, away we go!!!

[huntwriter]

Thomas Pigeon made a commonsense statement. Somebody posted it here and predictably as clockwork it turns into a mudslinging fest.
Anti hunters read here too. They are laughing because we provide them with just the right information they want to make a case against bowhunting in particular and hunting in general. Talk about digging our own grave.:roll:

[OOBuck]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_2_12.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxpt425YYCA)And, away we go!!!

Whats wrong with asking a question?

[Onesock]

00-Obviously the shoe fits, wear it with pride!!!

[ratherbefishin]

I can just imagine a scene in a cave a few thousand years ago-two guys sitting around a fire and arguing that using a bow and arrow was an unfair advantage over a hand thrown spear.Their wives come home,listen to this stupid arguement ,point out that there is no deer hanging on the meat pole ,kick their ass and tell them to shut up and go hunting ,and if they planned to share the bear skin with them that night, they better be bringing home a deer.....

[J_T]

Thomas Pigeon made a commonsense statement. Somebody posted it here and predictably as clockwork it turns into a mudslinging fest.
Anti hunters read here too. They are laughing because we provide them with just the right information they want to make a case against bowhunting in particular and hunting in general. Talk about digging our own grave.:roll:
I'm not really sure what your saying here. Horshur said it best, the bowhunters have given up trying to explain. There is no real mud being slung here, there is no real badmouthing of others. I believe over time on this site there has been much more acceptance of personal choice of weapon. There remains a lot of banter between user groups (so what) this is a chat site and for the most part, the only ones that get all upset, are the ones that don't read the entire thread, jump to conclusions about what is being said and get their defense up. It's not really a big deal. I personally feel that there is much more tolerance between user groups here now and isn't that working toward the unity we all scream about?

I read the anti's sites too. Big deal. Let them read.

[OOBuck]

00-Obviously the shoe fits, wear it with pride!!!

Kurt, I own a crossbow, never hunted with it. I know what its capable of.
My beef with you has always been that if it legal in archery season then have at it. To say that a crossbow isn't archery is a crock of shit. I know your all high and mighty with the long bow stuff but crossbows have been around almost as long. Would it make a difference to you if I built a crossbow like your long bow out of epoxy laminated limbs and use that instead?? Archery is archery, just because you met some individuals that were breaking the law with a crossbow or ruined your hunt doesn't mean that every crossbow hunter is a bungplug! Just my 2 bits..:p

Oh, I'll agree with you on one thing the host of that show does fit the bungplug stigma..

[J_T]

Kurt, I own a crossbow, never hunted with it. I know what its capable of.
My beef with you has always been that if it legal in archery season then have at it. To say that a crossbow isn't archery is a crock of shit. I know your all high and mighty with the long bow stuff but crossbows have been around almost as long. Would it make a difference to you if I built a crossbow like your long bow out of epoxy laminated limbs and use that instead?? Archery is archery, just because you met some individuals that were breaking the law with a crossbow or ruined your hunt doesn't mean that every crossbow hunter is a bungplug! Just my 2 bits..:p

Oh, I'll agree with you on one thing the host of that show does fit the bungplug stigma..

I shot a crossbow on Friday for the first time. I was a bit dissapointed, I was 1/2 inch high at 20 yards. I have to admit, when the guy handed it to me, my reaction was to look for the bolt and open it to confirm it wasn't loaded....:-o

I'm looking for one for my Dad. He still comes into camp but doesn't hunt because he can't pull his bow back and hold it. A crossbow would allow him to continue the hunt. What he has been doing is provide campfire wisdom, hunting stories, relationship discussion etc.

[huntcoop]

I shot a crossbow on Friday for the first time. I was a bit dissapointed, I was 1/2 inch high at 20 yards....

If it was scoped perhaps it was off. Remember it's the Indian not the arrow.

[Onesock]

00 Buck. Not once did I ever call anyone who hunted with a x-bow a "bungplug" as you say or any other name for that matter. It is my OPINION that x-bow's shouldn't be allowed in bow only seasons. I capitalize opinion just so it stands out. That is MY opinion. You hunt with whatever floats your boat. Good luck, it is your hunt and I hope you enjoy it. Take your son also, it will be that much more enjoyable for you. Don't take it so personnal if our opinions happen to differ on some aspects. Certainly don't dislike someone you do not know because their opinion is different than yours or resort to name calling because of these different opinions. Doing this may make a person look immature. Oh yes, the name is Kirk, as in Captain Kirk.