Thinkin' Outside The Box

[dana]

It troubles me to see the direction this province is headed with regards to our hunting rights. Be it the Great Bear Rainforest grizzly hunt, the Region 5 mule deer hunt, the Region 8 moose hunt or the latest of Penner’s election goodies that helps poor orphaned bear cubs and has the media pointing the finger directly at hunters. Would have been the perfect time and place to give the hard truth that Nature is a Bitch, that bears kill bears, wolves kill bears, highways kill bears, and trash kills bears. But no, we must blame hunters instead. It seems that we are in a fight for our lives and what we are doing isn’t working. Willy is right, we need to organize and get our $hit together. United we stand, divided we fall. I have watched for numerous years on these boards as hunters tear each other apart. Time to stop fighting and time to start looking for common ground that we can agree on. There will have to be give and take from all sides for things to change for the better in this province. We all must step back and start thinking outside the box.

It seems obvious to me that money $$ is indeed the driving issue when it comes to our failing system. Plain and simple, money talks and gets actions. Managers are not basing their decisions on science because there is no money for the science. We can blame the lack of funding from Victoria, but why fund such science when you don’t see very big returns? While I disagree with a lot of the politics, it really doesn’t matter what party is running things, money talks. Hunters don’t generate enough money to make us important to the grand scheme of things. So how do we generate more money, especially with resident hunter numbers on a decline?

Here are some of my thoughts, and before you go off ready to lynch me, hear me out first. I think we should be looking at the great untapped resource that is in the hunters to the south of us. Lets pull the restrictions on nonresident aliens needing a guide and lets give them a non-resident LEH draw system. Oh my gawd dana, now you’ve gone and stirred the hornet’s nest. What about the resident’s rights, what about the outfitter’s rights? Like I said, hear me out. There is a large population of US hunters that are DIYers that either can’t afford to do the guided hunts in this province or would just rather hunt under their own skills rather than using the skills of a guide. Most serious hunters in the West are putting in for multiple draws in multiple states. They want to hunt and they don’t have any other option. They are used to the wait of the draw. Why can’t we tap into that market?

We could set up an non-resident non guided draw and no we don’t need to be taking away from the resident opportunity to do it. Deer, elk and black bears are good examples of critters that are in over abundance within this province. If we followed unified seasons within the Southern Regions for residents, we could eliminate the crowded situations we are currently seeing on some hunts. If you set the non-resident hunts up to be short 2 weeks seasons, scattered throughout the entire resident seasons, the added pressure will be minor.

Could you imagine if we treated hunting like we do with other outdoor recreational activities, such as skiing and fishing? Could you imagine using hunting as a form of tourism that spends money in local communities across the interior? Picture small towns putting together info packages to be handed out with the tags. These packages could list motels, B&B’s, gas stations, restaurants, gift shops and attractions within the vicinity of the unit the hunter has drawn. You can bet most serious hunters, especially those from WA, Idaho and Montana, would be willing to make a couple preseason scouting trips to get to know their draw units. Many would bring their families and they would spend money on the ground in local Interior towns, where the collapse of the forestry sector has been felt the worst. While the ecotourism sector boasts of big tourism dollars, why can’t the hunting sector also do the same???

How could you get the GOABC to agree to this? They can maintain their set percentage of allocations which would allow non-residents not willing to wait in the draw to jump ahead of the line and hunt like they already do. There will always be those hunters looking for quality that know their best odds at killing that quality animal are better with a guide. We might also have to give in to some of the GOABC’s wants. Like say, the muley rut hunt to go LEH? Oh my gawd, how can you say that? Like I said, there needs to be give and take right? My thoughts are that the resident needs something too. What if we made the Regional baglimit 2 mule deer bucks, one of which is LEH or archery. You can take your first buck within the GOS and if you got lucky in the draw, you could take another buck during the rut. If you didn’t get lucky in the draw, you can hunt your second buck under Archery Seasons that match the LEH season dates. If something like this can be agreed upon, it would need to be written in stone and signed in Blood. I would think that baring a severe winter kill, set seasons should remain for 10 years. I would also suggest, that to prove that the GOABC is indeed killing mature bucks, all nonresident guided hunts should be sent in for the Tooth for Truth. If the GOABC can kill consistently old rams, they should do the same for deer. They want LEH because they want the Trophy hunt. Then that is what it should be. They shouldn’t be killing anymore of these 120-155 2 and 3 year old deer. They bitch about quality, then stop shooting the immature bucks.

The nonresident non guided LEH can be sold at a good dollar. With these funds, MOE can actually manage with science. Be it aerial population counts, increased CO funding what have ya. We can still maintain a proper share with conservation first, FN second, residents third and nonresidents last.

Now go get the rope and find the tall tree. ;)

[GoatGuy]

Think about one other thing.

There are people sitting at home waiting for a moose tag every year. Tens of thousands of hunters that put in and can't go. Some regions don't even have a friggen' immature season. No antlerless/calf harvest which increases the harvest and hunter participation exponentially with only a small decrease in available bull harvest.

The immature season has been good for everyone where they have one. The bush is relatively busy in October. It lets the meat hunters get out, shoot 'any' buck and maybe a moose. They get to plan the annual trip, load up the camper and head out with friends and family - that's what it's all about.

In Region 8 they can come and pound one of the many wt's we have as well. November in those areas (Region 3/8) isn't nearly as crowded now that we have the immature bull moose season and everybody's relatively happy.

With some creative thinking we could let thousands more people out moose hunting every single year. Moose are big $ generators for residents. Lots of travel $ and long trips. Never mind the impact it would have on recruitment and retention. That's a big key that we're missing. Maybe a week long GOS with LEH surrounding it for folks who don't want to see a lot of hunters?

Think about the goats that are on LEH in areas where a goat hasn't been harvested in over 10 years. Same goes for grizzly and even sheep.

There are only so many days available for vacation across the Province. Let some hunters go goat/grizz/sheep hunting more often and all the sudden you've got more room for other hunters on other species.

Spread the harvest out across the Province instead of having any bull in Aug in Region 7B, then a calf season in 7A, then a bull season in 6 in October. Just like the Region 5 mule deer any buck in the rut, all you're asking for is trouble.

More dollars alone won't do it. A grizzly hunt sells for 10-20K to a non-resident. That same bear is worth millions for bear viewing and the exposure is also to thousands of people, not one hunter.

Gotta look at the big picture and focus on wildlife management, not trophy management. Let people go out and hunt.

Then we'll have strength in numbers of people and dollars.

[mark]

Holy crap! try to convince that to small minded people and politicians!
I however do see your point.
If the foreiner LEH's were available in the early seasons, and underutilized areas, Id be OK with the idea!
We dont need to add the the gong show areas, (such as yer backyard in mid nov.)
Im making some popcorn for this thread! :smile:

[Dirty]

Dana, I agree with you post, that we are in a fight to protect our right to hunt. Why not use the money from these DIY Non-Resident LEH Applications and Licensing to start a trust fund to start buying out guide territories. Then re-issue the quota in that area to a split between resident and non-resident DIY
's (95/5 of course).

[Gateholio]

GOABC woudl FREAK about the idea of non guided non residents:biggrin:

[Fisher-Dude]

I'll bite and play the Devil's Advocate.

I'd say if we residents weren't all sitting around waiting for a 20:1 moose draw/6 point elk to show itself/4 point deer/600:1 sheep draw, the idea could have merit. But, as was mentioned on the other thread, until residents have their demand for game met, the foreigners can suck ass.

It will take me 56 years to bag a mature bull moose in region 8. I'll spend thousands every year looking for an immy. Until I can shoot any bull like I could in the 70s and 80s when there were twice as many hunters around, I don't want our "scarce" (must be - why's it on LEH?;-)) wildlife resource sold off to Americans.

What government would ever take the NR LEH money and put it towards game management? You know full well where it will go - general revenue, and that's just a drop in the bucket compared to what mining and oil&gas can and will do for us. The NR accomodation revenues are a short-term, flash in the pan compared to a resident buying his trucks, quads, campers, guns, food, gas, and Sitka Gear here in BC when he can go moose hunting in his own province.

Buy a BC made camper in BC and you are enabling a wealth-creating job that spins off 3 or 4 other jobs - feed a Yankee for 5 days, and you are employing a server at minimum wage with no spin-off. It just doesn't work in macro-economic theory.

[Gateholio]

So dana, just to clarify- You are not suggesting that US residents enter the current LEH system (as that would drive the odds up incredibly high) but you are suggesting that certain areas be opened up to non resident LEH for animals that are NOT on LEH, such a black bear, deer?

[dana]

Gatehouse,
That is correct. The draw for non-resident non guided would be seperate from the resident draws. And would be for animals we have a surplus of, like whitetails, muleys, elk and black bears. I supose you could expand it on a very limited basis on a few once in a lifetime species. Like say let out 2 Stone tags with a $500 LEH application fee.

The fight for balance on the Resident LEH would be a total different animal, and with new money for science based management, should be easy to correct.

Dirty,
I'd take that even furthur. Open up guiding to residents within MU's without a licenced territory. Very similiar to fishing guides. They would have to be licenced guides and could only guide LEH permitted non-residents within say 150 kms of their home.
There are numerous territories within this province that are sitting idle or barely used. Use it or loose it. If it doesn't see a set amount of activity within a set amount of years, it goes back to the crown.

[dana]

Fisher dude,
Gotta think real. Many many rural communities within this province are hurting right now and will be for years to come as the collapse of the foresty sector will never see the good ol' days ever again. Many hunters within this province live in these communities. They can't buy BC made products if they don't have jobs now can they???

[Dirty]

Dirty,
I'd take that even furthur. Open up guiding to residents within MU's without a licenced territory. Very similiar to fishing guides. They would have to be licenced guides and could only guide LEH permitted non-residents within say 150 kms of their home.
There are numerous territories within this province that are sitting idle or barely used. Use it or loose it. If it doesn't see a set amount of activity within a set amount of years, it goes back to the crown.

I don't favor guiding like fishing guides. The guiding industry in the Lower Fraser is the biggest exploitation of a natural resource that I have ever seen. Multiple boats lining up to repeatedly prick sturgeon and make a quick buck. Every loser with a jetboat thinks they can make money off the back of a resource they give nothing back to. What will make it different with hunting?

We will have a bunch of wannabe tools that think they are the bestest hunters ever, trying to house non-resident hunters. It basically *******izes the debauchery of a guiding system we already have in BC. Wanna go shoot a 120" Mule of the main FSR?

I have a better idea, we tell all Non-residents to go F themselves, and no more non-resident hunting or fishing in BC. They can go eco-tour with the granolas, it makes more money than hunting in BC. Leave the rest to the Natives and Resident Hunters.

All that guiding does is exploit a resource much the same as Eco-tours. In reality, nobody gives a shit about the resource, they only care about the almighty dollar. Give the guides a buyout like the commercial fishermen, if they don't take the buyout, the next one is far less, and then they are shit out of luck. Cut the allocations back so far that they can't afford to operate anymore, before cutting them to nothing.

[Gateholio]

I'd take that even furthur. Open up guiding to residents within MU's without a licenced territory. Very similiar to fishing guides. They would have to be licenced guides and could only guide LEH permitted non-residents within say 150 kms of their home.
There are numerous territories within this province that are sitting idle or barely used. Use it or loose it. If it doesn't see a set amount of activity within a set amount of years, it goes back to the crown.


Keep in mind that most unassigned territories are that way for a reason. I've heard a few times from bios that "there is no G/O there,an dhat is good,we dont' intend to introduce one "

[ohno]

If $ talks and BS walks lets look at numbers.
83,700 hunters in 2006
Basic license: $32
Deer tag: $15
Moose: $25
Simple math tells us the government takes in over $2.6million a year in basic license fees alone, add 2/3 that amount again in tag sales. Not to mention LEH fees. I don't know how many $$ that is, but it is at least as much as the license revenue.
Where does this $ go? General Revenue.
Why not put that $ back into protecting and enhancing the resource. Recruiting new hunters, creating new opportunities are good places to start.

We need to start moving to a US taxation model where a specific tax goes to a specific cause and not into some vague ether called "general revenue". No taxation without representation, sound familiar?

Increase resident hunter numbers, how about getting rid of LEH on species that do not need to be micromanaged. As already mentioned GOS for immy moose is a great way to get big hunting parties back in the game. I know many feel the bush is too crowded as it is, but how can that be if we have 1/2 the number of hunters we had 25yrs ago? The average BC hunter is a meat hunter and hunts for social and ceremonial reasons. I think there are plenty of Trophy opportunities for those that put in the time and effort to harvest them.

I do not have a problem with selling off surplus animals to US or other foreign clients as long as RESIDENTS come first. We live here and have the most to win or lose in the long run and should have a say in how our natural resource is run.

Source for hunter #'s:
http://www.bearmatters.com/archives/382

[6616]

I don't know how many of you might remember this, but about 15 years ago Dr Val Geist addressed the BCWF annual convention on this very topic.

He used Wyoming as an example, a vast state with a low population and rich wildlife resources. A state whose main economic driver is cattle ranching since the failure of the forest industry a couple decades ago. Basically a poor state economically with little primary industry to provide jobs. They did have an extensive guide-outfitting industry and it was economically important since there was little other economic activity going on.

They had this brainstorm, had enough balls to think out of the box as Dana calls it, and they freed up a percentage of the annual harvest for deer, elk, and antelope and used it to introduce a non-resident unguided LEH draw.

The outcome was that they doubled their overall economic generation from non-resident hunting. They found that the non-resident self outfitted hunters spent a fair bit of money in small rural towns and didn't harvest a lot of game. In the end it didn't even hurt the outfitting industry significantly, but it created a significant income stream and provided a huge boost to the small town economies. In the end they found they actually make significantly more money towards the overall economy from each animal killed by a unguided non-resident then they do from a guided non-resident kill.

I believe it. I hunted in Casper (self-outfitted) and found resident hunters to be supportive of non-residents because they knew that we were in fact footing the bill for game management in their state. I paid $220.00USD for an antelope tag and stayed in a motel, ate often in resturants and bought a lot of gas.

I've also hunted several times out of Miles City Montana. There were signs everywhere, even a six foot high banner across main street welcoming hunters. Lots of stores had hunter special signs in the window. Resturants were opening at 5:00 AM to capture the hunter business. Every motel in town was full. It only lasts two weeks, but it was pretty obvious what a significant economic impact non-resident self-outfitted hunting has on these communities. While guided non-residents were sleeping and eating in outfitter provided accommodations and not even coming into town, the self outfitted residents were spending a lot of money in these small towns. The residents were friendly and supportive, and late in the evening when we would be in a restaurant they would be asking us how it was going, seeing anything, getting anything, even sitting down and having a beer with us, etc? Small town country folks are great everywhere I guess.

This idea of Dana's isn't a far fetched idea, it's a legitimate concept that has worked in Montana, Wyoming, and to some extent in southern Saskatchewan and Alberta..! It does not have to include any LEH species, and it does not have to apply to sheep or in wilderness areas where unguided non-residents would surely end up getting themselves into a big fix..

[bridger]

the non resident leh system would solve a lot of problems we have with the goabc. the problem with our present non resident hunting system is that it is controlled entirely by the goabc. the non res hunters have to buy the tag from an outfitter and therein lies the root of the problem. this has resulted in a sense of ownership on the part of the guides. In meetings they never talk about non resident quotas it is always my quota. While this idea is a good one it is not necessarily new. the bcwf has put this on the table several times over the years and has met serious opposition from not only the goabc but government as well. The moe likes the present system as it is organized and quite frankly makes their job easier. Dana I support this idea 100%, but right now as resident hunters we need to get our rights protected . My experience tells me that as good that idea is we need to keep our focus on the fire that is consuming us before we launch that battle. Right now imho everyone needs to focus on equity.

[huntwriter]

I fully agree with Dana and 6616. In addition I lobby for years to have a special purpose tax on all hunting and fishing goods dedicated to wildlife conservation enshrined in a similar law as the Pittman-Robertson Act in America, which prevents hunting and fishing generated money from ending up in general revenue of the province. This act alone would generate billions of dollars for hunting and fishing and provide us with the necessary financial clout.

In the protection of our hunting rights money talks. See south of the border how well it works and it is no different here. We need a unified coalition of hunters and anglers with financial power.

[hunter1947]

Never once has the media ever mentioned about what we the hunters and the wildlife Branch do to protect and do to preserve our wildlife source http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif.

The media should print out how much the hunters spend in this provence each year in different towns.

Where not hear to kill every last species in the entire provence ,we as hunters control numbers if not the habitat out there would not serve all.

The way the wildlife branch operates is that there is a season implemented for different species within a region to keep the animals under a tolerable level of head an if there numbers are down then they do what they have to in order to bring the population back to a number that is acceptable.

If anyone does a research on the revenue that BC hunters spent then that of aliens you will see that the BC hunters spend 6 to 1 of the aliens.

I would love to see someone that can put it all together on paper and send it to the media to show that we hunters are not what they make us out to be.

When do we ever see a wright up in any papers on what we the hunters do for the Provence of BC ???.

[Onesock]

Its not a bad idea if all the income generated went back into the resourse. But we all know,or at least should know that 80% of the population doesn't hunt. In times of government deficit do you really think the gov'y would spend all this extra money on wildlife when 10% of the population is unemployed... It is a noble idea, but doesn't have a chance in hell of surviving. A government looks after itself.and that means its voters. That why we have gun control in Canada, the gov'y rolled over because of its voters. This is what would happen to the added income from foreigner's hunting in BC.

[Fisher-Dude]

Fisher dude,
Gotta think real. Many many rural communities within this province are hurting right now and will be for years to come as the collapse of the foresty sector will never see the good ol' days ever again. Many hunters within this province live in these communities. They can't buy BC made products if they don't have jobs now can they???

Those small town folks need a realistic chance of filling their freezer for a reasonable price. I remember my dad doing this because it was more economical for him to hunt than buy a side of beef. Now, I spend $6,000 for a season where I put 150 lbs of deer meat in my freezer.

With a shitload of restrictions, residents can't make it economical - with proper quotas and allowing us to shoot more game in our backyards, it would start to make it worthwhile. As long as we are giving a disproportionate slice of the pie to aliens, and managing our game to satisfy the desire of these aliens to trophy hunt, the resident hunter can't make it pay to fill his freezer and feed his family. That's why all those hunters walked away and sold their guns in the 80s and 90s - it was just too damned expensive for them. They were, by and large, moose and elk hunters, and when we tied their arms behind their backs with unneccesary restrictions, half of them walked from hunting. Double the amount of resident hunters that we had only 20 years ago, and those small towns will have lots of visitors buying gas, food, and motels.

We've got to feed ourselves before we give it to aliens. Why do you think FNs hunt? It's to put cheap meat in the freezer, not to put a 370 class elk on the wall. The FNs have sustenance looked after by their "regulations". You've seen the hierarchy of harvest priority on the other thread (conservation, FN, residents, non-residents). Once residents have heir sustenance needs met, then we can entertain non-residents.

I think Dana is reacting to the current economic downturn, looking for a solution to a short-term problem with a long-term plan. In 3 or 4 years when BC is scrambling to produce enough lumber to meet the US housing shortage created by the current downturn, and lumber is $500/mbf, and we're trying to find enough workers to fill $60,000/year jobs at the mills, we won't be trying to create waitress jobs in Barriere to serve burgers to yankee hunters. :wink:

[mark]

Its not a bad idea if all the income generated went back into the resourse. But we all know,or at least should know that 80% of the population doesn't hunt. In times of government deficit do you really think the gov'y would spend all this extra money on wildlife when 10% of the population is unemployed... It is a noble idea, but doesn't have a chance in hell of surviving. A government looks after itself.and that means its voters. That why we have gun control in Canada, the gov'y rolled over because of its voters. This is what would happen to the added income from foreigner's hunting in BC.

RE/QUOTE
Its not a bad idea if all the income generated went back into the resourse.

I dont think that was the idea of Danas concept. The idea was more to generate tourism!!! Bring in foreign hunters that spend money as tourists do! Yes the vast majority of that will go to general revenue, but.....Wily made a very good point recently that made me think a little. BC's wildlife belongs to its residents (4 million people) not resident hunters (83,000). It is managed as a cash cow, renewable resource. (And so it should be)

For animals of surplus, like deer and bear, this is a great idea! Elk I dont agree with, if they were that plentiful lets do away with antler restrictions first, still tons of BC residents have never got an elk!

[huntwriter]

Never once has the media ever mentioned about what we the hunters and the wildlife Branch do to protect and do to preserve our wildlife source http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif.

The media should print out how much the hunters spend in this provence each year in different towns.

Where not hear to kill every last species in the entire provence ,we as hunters control numbers if not the habitat out there would not serve all.

The way the wildlife branch operates is that there is a season implemented for different species within a region to keep the animals under a tolerable level of head an if there numbers are down then they do what they have to in order to bring the population back to a number that is acceptable.

If anyone does a research on the revenue that BC hunters spent then that of aliens you will see that the BC hunters spend 6 to 1 of the aliens.

I would love to see someone that can put it all together on paper and send it to the media to show that we hunters are not what they make us out to be.

When do we ever see a wright up in any papers on what we the hunters do for the Provence of BC ???.

I am working on an article about hunter generated revenue as we speak. If the mainstream media purchases the article I will post it on this forum. The crux is that there are many good articles written in defense of hunting but the mainstream media usually turns them down in favor of a not so flattering article. The reply from editors goes usually something like this: “Sorry there is not enough interest for this type of article with our readers.”

[Wild one]

I would be all for it as long as the tags were only for the animals that are in good numbers for that region. But the problem is the gov would most likely abuse it without a group that backs the BC hunters in charge.

[brotherjack]

How about we just start by doing away with the trophy-hunting based restrictions that (are to this day) driving the resident hunter population into extinction? Conservation concerns are one thing, but 6 point elk and 4 point deer and no moose at all, mostly in areas where the only "concern" is that "trophy quality" be "conserved" by making it too hard for "joe average" to go out and fill his freezer so you get fewer hunters and thus more trophies.

[pikey]

Dana, I'm a relatively new hunter only a few years experience but a couple of things jump out at me.

I can't help but think of the last time I was fishing for Salmon in Nootka sound out by Gold River.
The place was full of trucks with Washington tags and apparently they were loading up float planes with Salmon and flying 'em South.

We take care with OUR land and OUR game because it it just that OURS no matter what sleeze ball politician is in office. Do non-guided non-residents take the same care.

And what about Safety??? What safety courses have they had to take if they are from Kentucky or Texas? Are they safe?
I'm required to pass a safety and hunting course, what do the Non-residents have to pass or show proficiency at?
Another tier where the resident is a second class citizen in his own home?

Could the locals be priced out of property in an area that has a lot of monied non-residents setting up to hunt, buying property?

Hasn't this happened in the Kootenays in a localized way with oil rich Alberta next door?

I have heard some NIMBYish stuff on this board and that is when people have the audacity to travel from the LM to other parts of the Province let alone coming from out of Country.

Frankly, if we have all these 4 point seasons and LEH's and what not and they REALLY are because of Conservation concerns, then we shouldn't have any non-residents hunting here at all guided or otherwise.

Can't see the Granolas liking Joe redneck coming up from the South in numbers either so politically it would be a hard sell.

Just jawing some stuff that came to me right off the top of my head, be gentle :)

[Jelvis]

Keep the Canadian dollar high compared to states and you'll cut the tourists right down.
Most of us are poor working family with younger kids and we just don't have the money for guided hunts and staying out for two weeks in a far away place with all the equipment etc.
If you can only afford to hunt in Clearwater then do it and forget about the biologists responsibilties, they have university degrees for doing the job we'll nwever be able to do or get.
Think local and forget about trying to keep up with the rich guys it's just your dream thats all, stick with reality, hunting for a deer near where you live etc. Leave the job to the professionals or go to university and become a biologist full time.
Gotta learn to trust the MOE, they are educated for those descisions.
imho, stick with what you can afford.
Jel --

[willy442]

Dana; Your ideas are not new and have some merrit. The thing I see is, now everyone is off on another independant tangent of ideas instead of addressing the situation at hand. If any gains are to be made the hunters and user groups must join forces, come to a united front, no matter how difficult it is and present a series of changes to the MOE. The problem now is they have many groups fighting and they act like referee's, a situation they don't want. The start of this would require some new broad thinking directors in the BCWF, GOABC and other groups. Everyone would have to lay aside the old res verses G/O battle and actually try to do some good for hunting in the province for all. With this kind of approach the gov would have no choice but to listen. Strength is in numbers and you can increase those very quickly this way compared to selling BCWF memberships to keep the old way going for another thirty years. It is very clear by the postings of some on here that the new generation is prepared to follow the last, rather than broaden thier thinking and moving forward.

[goatdancer]

Dana; Your ideas are not new and have some merrit. The thing I see is, now everyone is off on another independant tangent of ideas instead of addressing the situation at hand. If any gains are to be made the hunters and user groups must join forces, come to a united front, no matter how difficult it is and present a series of changes to the MOE. The problem now is they have many groups fighting and they act like referee's, a situation they don't want. The start of this would require some new broad thinking directors in the BCWF, GOABC and other groups. Everyone would have to lay aside the old res verses G/O battle and actually try to do some good for hunting in the province for all. With this kind of approach the gov would have no choice but to listen. Strength is in numbers and you can increase those very quickly this way compared to selling BCWF memberships to keep the old way going for another thirty years. It is very clear by the postings of some on here that the new generation is prepared to follow the last, rather than broaden thier thinking and moving forward.

Please explain your ideas of the new way forward. GOABC doesn't care about the concerns of residents. How in the world do you expect them to work with the BCWF? I don't understand your theory of 'you can increase those very quickly this way....' because I can see no way that GOABC and the resident hunters can get together. I'm not trying to slag your opinion, just would like some clarification please.

I do agree with the non-res LEH only if it is for any surplus animals that are not needed for residents. All wildlife belongs to the Crown (that's us, residents) therefore we should have first dibs.

[GoatGuy]

I do agree with the non-res LEH only if it is for any surplus animals that are not needed for residents.


This has been 'discussed' before. The discussion resembled a scene from the exorcist.

[Everett]

Well last night I put together a multi paragraph response only to have my conection crash. So here is the highlights.
Unguided americans hunting in BC is crazy they are very unsafe just check out how many hunters are shot in the states by other hunters the numbers are nuts. From personal exsperiance one of my cousins was shot and killed by an unguided american hunter in nova scotia in 1974 he thought Peter was a deer.
I personaly am against any foreign hunters in BC period but would be open to other Canadians hunting in BC for animals that are not on LEH for residents.
As for the GO's I think its time they were fazed out and the easy way to do it is end Foreign hunting.

Well thats the condensed version of thoughts on the subject thanks for bringing it up Dana.

[goatdancer]

This has been 'discussed' before. The discussion resembled a scene from the exorcist.

Complete with the green projectile vomit??????

[6616]

How about we just start by doing away with the trophy-hunting based restrictions that (are to this day) driving the resident hunter population into extinction? Conservation concerns are one thing, but 6 point elk and 4 point deer and no moose at all, mostly in areas where the only "concern" is that "trophy quality" be "conserved" by making it too hard for "joe average" to go out and fill his freezer so you get fewer hunters and thus more trophies.

That would be a good start BJ, that's for sure.

[quadrakid]

i understand where you,re coming from on this.it,s unusual and has some merit because money seems to be all that the government is interested in. how much "value" as in money,is each of our natural resources worth? it,s also the card the antis like to play,that our wildlife is too valuable as a tourist draw to allow bloodthirsty killers like ourselves to kill anything. i know i,m a bit of a dreamer but i wish all user groups could step away from this kind of thinking. our wild life should not have a dollar value put on them. they are priceless.if money is the driving force in management we could be in real trouble as hunters.

[willy442]

Please explain your ideas of the new way forward. GOABC doesn't care about the concerns of residents. How in the world do you expect them to work with the BCWF? I don't understand your theory of 'you can increase those very quickly this way....' because I can see no way that GOABC and the resident hunters can get together. I'm not trying to slag your opinion, just would like some clarification please.

I do agree with the non-res LEH only if it is for any surplus animals that are not needed for residents. All wildlife belongs to the Crown (that's us, residents) therefore we should have first dibs.

The BCWF and the GOABC do meet. Guides do understand the concerns of residents, Residents are less likely to understand the concerns of guides. We have to advance past the point of seperate user groups not getting along and recognizing each others concerns. Through this groups can form a united front outside of government. Then when put forth to the people in charge demands can be met because the user groups have already come to agreement. The way things are now and in the past, we have all user groups approaching government alone and the politicians feast off of the turmoil and do as they wish. This has to stop and the users need to start directing government. In the interm the group with the most available funding and best organization will continue to win. Like I said before this will require some new thinking from all involved. United these groups are very strong and will succeed, separately they will fall and the future will be no different than the past.

[fowl language]

dana, its nice to see someone thinking about ways to fix this,i have another idea that might work in conjunction with this. there are 300,000 hunting and fishing lics in bc. and only 35000 members in bcwf. imagine if you will if we all brought in 3 or 4 people to join. now we have a voice of 90 to 100,000. i believe the govt would tend to listen to their voice. like you said give and take on all issues but we must stand united, most of the powerfull lobby in the states have a large voice behind them.i am not the answer to all but i have been thinking about how to get more members and am hoping every one will share their ideas in increasing membership as i believe right now its our biggest voice presently.bcwf might not be perfect or agree with every thing every one says but its our best shot at getting the govt to listen presently.please give it a thought as well. sorry dana i wasnt meaning to steal your thunder but i just think they could go hand in hand. your thought please...fowl

[daycort]

dana good thread.

But before a plan like dana's can take place we have to settle a much bigger problem.

Are future as hunters is at stake and the situation is worsening everyday. it won't matter if there is a GOABC or a BCWF if there is no hunting allowed in our province because of all the lobbying the leaf lickers do. Pretty soon it is going purely eco-tourism, if we don't join hands and fight back. After that we can worry about the LEH horse shit and AAH{EDIT ( i do not support the GOABC in any way<I just like to hunt, and want my kids to have the same oppurtunity)}.

I say we need to gert together and run an add or commercial before the election,so the wrong people don't run our province. We may be only a minority of the province but it just takes a handfull of votes to swing it one way or another.

[GoatGuy]

The BCWF and the GOABC do meet. Guides do understand the concerns of residents, Residents are less likely to understand the concerns of guides.
Too funny.

[GoatGuy]

dana good thread.

But before a plan like dana's can take place we have to settle a much bigger problem.

Are future as hunters is at stake and the situation is worsening everyday. it won't matter if there is a GOABC or a BCWF if there is no hunting allowed in our province because of all the lobbying the leaf lickers do. Pretty soon it is going purely eco-tourism, if we don't join hands and fight back. After that we can worry about the LEH horse shit and AAH.

I say we need to gert together and run an add or commercial before the election,so the wrong people don't run our province. We may be only a minority of the province but it just takes a handfull of votes to swing it one way or another.

Better sit down and have a chat with Bridger.

[bridger]

The BCWF and the GOABC do meet. Guides do understand the concerns of residents, Residents are less likely to understand the concerns of guides. We have to advance past the point of seperate user groups not getting along and recognizing each others concerns. Through this groups can form a united front outside of government. Then when put forth to the people in charge demands can be met because the user groups have already come to agreement. The way things are now and in the past, we have all user groups approaching government alone and the politicians feast off of the turmoil and do as they wish. This has to stop and the users need to start directing government. In the interm the group with the most available funding and best organization will continue to win. Like I said before this will require some new thinking from all involved. United these groups are very strong and will succeed, separately they will fall and the future will be no different than the past.


I totally disagree with this. the goabc and the bcwf have met and agreed on an allocation policy. we spent almost three years negotiating a new allocation policy. The goabc signed off the bcwf has signed off and the moe has signed off. all the parties agreed ont the allocation policy in 2007. Guess who has not honored their commitment to the policy.. You guessed it THE GOABC!!! If the goabcc would honor its commitment to the new allocation policy and the moe would implement the policy all this trouble would go away. the ball is in the court of the goabc. the guides will not honor their commitment to the allocation policy. Simple as that!!!!
If resident hunters do not unite and insist that this happens we willl continue to loose hunting opportunities. bull shit is bull shit!!

[daycort]

Better sit down and have a chat with Bridger

I think we as residents are still hunting in this province because of guys like bridger. I do beleive every one on this site owes him at least a single rye with a splash of coke.

I hope people are not confused about my above post GG. I in no way support the GOABC or for what they try to do to bend the resi's over.

Just right now, I think the picture is a little bigger then that.

[GoatGuy]

I think we as residents are still hunting in this province because of guys like bridger. I do beleive every one on this site owes him at least a single rye with a splash of coke.

I hope people are not confused about my above post GG. I in no way support the GOABC or for what they try to do to bend the resi's over.

Just right now, I think the picture is a little bigger then that.
Trust me, talk to him.

[GoatGuy]

I totally disagree with this. the goabc and the bcwf have met and agreed on an allocation policy. we spent almost three years negotiating a new allocation policy. The goabc signed off the bcwf has signed off and the moe has signed off. all the parties agreed ont the allocation policy in 2007. Guess who has not honored their commitment to the policy.. You guessed it THE GOABC!!! If the goabcc would honor its commitment to the new allocation policy and the moe would implement the policy all this trouble would go away. the ball is in the court of the goabc. the guides will not honor their commitment to the allocation policy. Simple as that!!!!
If resident hunters do not unite and insist that this happens we willl continue to loose hunting opportunities. bull shit is bull shit!!


You mean you don't want the allocation policy implementation period to be extended to 2017???? Maybe we should extend it to 2117?

Do you thing 110 years is enough to accept a policy that was signed and agreed upon?

[willy442]

I totally disagree with this. the goabc and the bcwf have met and agreed on an allocation policy. we spent almost three years negotiating a new allocation policy. The goabc signed off the bcwf has signed off and the moe has signed off. all the parties agreed ont the allocation policy in 2007. Guess who has not honored their commitment to the policy.. You guessed it THE GOABC!!! If the goabcc would honor its commitment to the new allocation policy and the moe would implement the policy all this trouble would go away. the ball is in the court of the goabc. the guides will not honor their commitment to the allocation policy. Simple as that!!!!
If resident hunters do not unite and insist that this happens we willl continue to loose hunting opportunities. bull shit is bull shit!!

The guides say the opposite Bridger and you know it. This speaks directly to my point of stopping the approaching government independantly. Form a united front and try a new approach. The ways the BCWF, Guides and Managers dealt with issues started the ball rolling but has really settled nothing. I think its damn well time some people sit down and settle the issues instead of dragging them along to another generation.

[GoatGuy]

Hmmmmm.

Isn't this a place where a judge looks at whats on the signed documents and looks at whats happening???

Who wins?

It's policy - might as well be toilet paper for all the good it's done.

[GoatGuy]

The guides say the opposite Bridger and you know it. This speaks directly to my point of stopping the approaching government independantly. Form a united front and try a new approach. The ways the BCWF, Guides and Managers dealt with issues started the ball rolling but has really settled nothing. I think its damn well time some people sit down and settle the issues instead of dragging them along to another generation.

Bullshit - the guides are asking for extensions on a 5 year implementation period on the policy. Instead of 5 we need 10 years to get our shit together?

This just happened in Region 6 last week. Just hoping for a change in Victoria to shake out of the policy just like the last one.

Both sides signed a deal. All resident hunters have asked for is their share per the policy. THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED!

GARBAGE!

[Hidehanger]

Well, Dana was suggesting ways to get others to help contribute $ to the system to allow better managment and hopefully better harvest/hunter satisfaction, ultimately to get politicians to listen....here's another idea...

how many critters get killed each year by cars and trains....ICBC gets its pound of flesh from you if you make a claim (they are running a surplus by the way...a big surplus....), and the highways and rail ministries don't care cause it doesn't cost them anything....in fact, they fight tooth and nail against trying to put in wildlife overpasses and underpasses, etc. when they build new or re-route and upgrade, even though it would benefit wildlife and be safer for people....perhaps BCWF could put some added heat on those players...

with more $ biologists can actually do surveys and figure out how many animals are around and maybe even what the issues are for poorly producing...mines go in an impact widlife populations and nobody even cares because $ go to gov't...but not MOE...maybe they should be expected to pay compensation for the lost wildlife productivity, after all if the herd ever rebuilds, it will at least take many years and that impacts you and me...

and what about water power projects...license to print $...yet no royality goes anywhere near MOE to monitor or study widlife and the impacts of those projects...at least hydro has several compensation funds in place for its big killers...

why are others not expected to contribute as well? IF you could gather this cash together for MOE to use to manage and protect our wildlife, we wouldn't need to try to sell our wildlife to the US...haven't we already sold enough to them?

[willy442]

Bullshit - the guides are asking for extensions on a 5 year implementation period on the policy. Instead of 5 we need 10 years to get our shit together?

This just happened in Region 6 last week. Just hoping for a change in Victoria to shake out of the policy just like the last one.

Both sides signed a deal. All resident hunters have asked for is their share per the policy. THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED!

GARBAGE!

Stats man; Look through the archives for the last 30 years ands see how many other times similar things have happened. I'm sure you will see many, all for the same reasons. Better political wrangling by the organized.
Can you not get the big picture, UNTIL THINGS CHANGE OUTSIDE OF GOVERNMENT the circle will continue, you and a few others on here sound like clone's from some of the involved 25 years ago. Good luck moving forward and making gains in a manner that you have publicly laughed at on here.:roll:

[dana]

Those small town folks need a realistic chance of filling their freezer for a reasonable price. I remember my dad doing this because it was more economical for him to hunt than buy a side of beef. Now, I spend $6,000 for a season where I put 150 lbs of deer meat in my freezer.

With a shitload of restrictions, residents can't make it economical - with proper quotas and allowing us to shoot more game in our backyards, it would start to make it worthwhile. As long as we are giving a disproportionate slice of the pie to aliens, and managing our game to satisfy the desire of these aliens to trophy hunt, the resident hunter can't make it pay to fill his freezer and feed his family. That's why all those hunters walked away and sold their guns in the 80s and 90s - it was just too damned expensive for them. They were, by and large, moose and elk hunters, and when we tied their arms behind their backs with unneccesary restrictions, half of them walked from hunting. Double the amount of resident hunters that we had only 20 years ago, and those small towns will have lots of visitors buying gas, food, and motels.

We've got to feed ourselves before we give it to aliens. Why do you think FNs hunt? It's to put cheap meat in the freezer, not to put a 370 class elk on the wall. The FNs have sustenance looked after by their "regulations". You've seen the hierarchy of harvest priority on the other thread (conservation, FN, residents, non-residents). Once residents have heir sustenance needs met, then we can entertain non-residents.

I think Dana is reacting to the current economic downturn, looking for a solution to a short-term problem with a long-term plan. In 3 or 4 years when BC is scrambling to produce enough lumber to meet the US housing shortage created by the current downturn, and lumber is $500/mbf, and we're trying to find enough workers to fill $60,000/year jobs at the mills, we won't be trying to create waitress jobs in Barriere to serve burgers to yankee hunters. :wink:


FD,
I am not reacting to the current economic downturn. The forestry sector was in dire straits long before this current 'global' reccession. A few years back the RPF association was predicting that post-beetle, we would see a colaspse larger than the East-Coast fishery. The AAC's have been bumped up so much to address the beetle, that once she's over, they will have to cut er back to almost nil to get er back on track. The 'global' reccession is just the last kick in the nuts to an already dying industry. If we don't do something to keep the forestry dependant small towns viable, we will see yet further migration to urban, and that means a furthur reduction of the numbers of active hunters within this province.
While the idea of stimulating our own economies by spending local is a good thing, it isn't enough. I'm not disputing having cheap hunting opportunities is great for the struggle rural communities. Yes, we need to have better access to the animals in our own back yards. But that doesn't provide the $$$ that we need to make us viable in the grand scheme of things. While you can run the numbers and make it look one way, you can also run the numbers to make it look a totally different way. For example, numerous individuals have already listed their expenses spent on hunting within this province. Trucks, campers, jetboats ect all sound fine and dandy. But call those expenses 'hunting'? Do people not drive their trucks outside of hunting season for other reasons, like 'basic transportation? Are not those campers used to actually go 'camping'? The outdoor recreationalists that don't hunt still buy those items. If you were to look at them from a right off point of view, you can only declare a 'item' for a set amount of years and every year it is devalued until it is considered worthless. Do hunters buy a new gun, a new truck, a new camper every year they go hunting? I highly doubt it. And then there are the vast majority of hunters like myself that pride ourselves in how 'cheaply' we can get the job done. While many on this website seem to like to brag about their latest and greatest purchases, there are many many more hunters in this province that don't frequent sites like this, and they just shoot their meat buck with the ol' 303 while they are getting a load of firewood. Very very little expense for that meat in the freezer.

It seems the current government is very money driven. This puts me in a dilema. Do I vote for them and loose my current hunting rights even further because they refuse to put my tax money back into this 'undervalued' resource, or do I vote against them for a party that's main foundations are to rid us of the ills of hunting altogether? There is no choice is there? This is why I think now is a good time to start thinkin outside the box.

[dana]

And what about Safety??? What safety courses have they had to take if they are from Kentucky or Texas? Are they safe?
I'm required to pass a safety and hunting course, what do the Non-residents have to pass or show proficiency at?
Another tier where the resident is a second class citizen in his own home?


It would be a given that for the most part, non-resident non guided hunters would come from the States nearest to our border. Most States have hunter saftey courses just like ours. We can look at their saftey training and accept them just like we do when Canadian hunters move here from other provinces and we accept the hunter saftey tickets that aready have.

With CORE going online, we could make them take our CORE to keep them fresh to our rules and regs. Not a hard thing to do in this digital age.

[Dirty]

Dana,

I like the intentions of your ideas, but I just don't like the future ramifications of them. I do not agree with non-residents being able to hunt in BC. I especially do not agree with making guiding like fishing guides, where any moron can get a guide operation.

It just leads to greed and exploiting the resource to make money off it's back. For what is taken out, not enough is put back to help the resource they are exploiting.

I am sure a rule like this would be a real dandy for you. You and your friends have all the hidey ho's picked out from working in forestry and scouting. You have all the pictures you post on Muley Madness (or whatever), I am sure you have a large clientele banging at your door already.

If legislation went through, it would be a prime opportunity for you to capitalize off the back of our resources. I am blatantly suggesting that you are proposing this fishing-guide style of guiding for your sole benefit. Let's get serious, forestry workers around the province could give it a go and make a half-assed attempt at guiding, but it is not going to give them a solution to their problems, or the money they need to survive. Let's have a realistic outlook on the needs of the people in our province.

My main concern is as such: BC is not for sale or exploitation by foreign hunters and fishermen. As far as I am concerned, they can all go "f" themselves and stay in yankee land.

[dana]

Here is my response on MM regarding them suggesting I should become a guide/outfitter myself. Not the response that you are suggesting is it?

"I have thought long and hard over the years of buying a guide territory and becoming an outfitter. Most territories are extremely over priced. And all you get for that price is the right to guide non-resident hunters within the boundaries of your territory. While I've guided a bit in the past for a local outfitter and enjoyed some of it, I'd rather be hunting with family and friends. My kids are just entering their hunting careers and I'd hate to miss out on the excitement of their first kills because I was making the 'big cake' guiding. The desire to make $$ hunting isn't in me. I am happy with my meager single income wages where I can raise my family in the good life in the country with some of the best hunting opportunities just minutes outside my door. For me hunting means a hell of a lot more to me than chasing that ellusive pot of $$ gold."


My idea of deregulating the guide rules is based on the fact that I personally think our current system is crazy. In the states, you have to be good to stay in business. Competition has a way of making people work for their money.

Coming from a resource sector myself, I don't have a problem with the idea of the people of this province making a living off a renewable resource. On top of my forestry background, I have a degree in High Adventure Outdoor Pursuits. I don't know why hunting can't be included in the whole idea of marketing ourselves as a world class outdoor destination. Don't see local skiiers bitching about Yanks skiing on 'Our' mountains now do we?

[CanuckShooter]

Here is my response on MM regarding them suggesting I should become a guide/outfitter myself. Not the response that you are suggesting is it?

"I have thought long and hard over the years of buying a guide territory and becoming an outfitter. Most territories are extremely over priced. And all you get for that price is the right to guide non-resident hunters within the boundaries of your territory. While I've guided a bit in the past for a local outfitter and enjoyed some of it, I'd rather be hunting with family and friends. My kids are just entering their hunting careers and I'd hate to miss out on the excitement of their first kills because I was making the 'big cake' guiding. The desire to make $$ hunting isn't in me. I am happy with my meager single income wages where I can raise my family in the good life in the country with some of the best hunting opportunities just minutes outside my door. For me hunting means a hell of a lot more to me than chasing that ellusive pot of $$ gold."


My idea of deregulating the guide rules is based on the fact that I personally think our current system is crazy. In the states, you have to be good to stay in business. Competition has a way of making people work for their money.

Coming from a resource sector myself, I don't have a problem with the idea of the people of this province making a living off a renewable resource. On top of my forestry background, I have a degree in High Adventure Outdoor Pursuits. I don't why hunting can't be included in the whole idea of marketing ourselves as a world class outdoor destination. Don't see local skiiers bitching about Yanks skiing on 'Our' mountains now do we?

No, but then they don't get exclusive rights to the mountains either. I have a problem with applying for LEHs and rarely getting one while I know that a non resident can purchase a tag off a GO for the same animals. IMO non residents shouldn't get ANY allocation while residents are under LEH regulations.

[dana]

They don't get exlusive rights to the mountains? Hmmm, there is a very large heli-skiing company just north of me that can fly the 'rich and famous' to mountains us lowly locals will never ski because we can't afford it. How is that fair? ;)

[CanuckShooter]

Nitpicker.....;-)

[Jelvis]

Wiegle Heli ski operation into the powder, you better have some coin if you want to join. lol. I think it's Mike's. Virgin snows. Blue River area.
Heli-copter access. Rich and famous dine on the top of the world.
A plug for Mr. Wiegle --- lol.
Lance --

[field marshal]

Dana,
These are excellent ideas you have proposed.
I have been hunting since the early 50,s so have seen many changes.
The only thing I would be leery of is the allocation of moneys collected
from the LEH;s???
I don't trust governments!!!
Too many times money is funneled into genral revenue instead of
what it is earmarked for??
What do you say about this??
Cheers, Field Marshal.

[Fisher-Dude]

There's a considerable push in Saskatchewan right now to get rid of the unguided NR hunters in that province. There's a lot of trespassing and general hunting rules being broken by the visitors, and it has pissed enough people off that they now have an audience with the government and are exploring what can be done about eliminating out-of-province hunters.

Before BC entertains the idea, we should look at the mayhem in SK and try not to repeat the mistakes of our flatlander cousins.

[mark]

There's a considerable push in Saskatchewan right now to get rid of the unguided NR hunters in that province. There's a lot of trespassing and general hunting rules being broken by the visitors, and it has pissed enough people off that they now have an audience with the government and are exploring what can be done about eliminating out-of-province hunters.

Before BC entertains the idea, we should look at the mayhem in SK and try not to repeat the mistakes of our flatlander cousins.

You may be correct..... but when myself and 3 others did the sask hunt 2 years ago, we were welcomed by all locals. The small town we stayed in sure seemed to need, and welcome our money with big smiles and courtesy.
The only people that didnt appreciate us hunting there, were the "indians" who were "guiding" yanky hunters. (prior to the out of province hunt season to boot)
We saw lots of "tourist/hunters", but no mayhem!

[Fisher-Dude]

Non-resident hunting in the States :biggrin::


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/Llama1.jpg



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/Llama2.jpg



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/Llama3.jpg



Is this what we need in BC?

[tufferthandug]

[quote=dana;442476]
Lets pull the restrictions on nonresident aliens needing a guide and lets give them a non-resident LEH draw system.

Let's hope(pray) that this never happens! I can’t envision any benefits to us hunters especially the non trophy ones. I don’t care about a bunch of foreign hunters running loose all over the country side shooting everything that moves. IMO All foreign hunters should be under constant supervision meaning guided by a certified guide or assistant guide. PERIOD. IMO The$ contributed would a drop in the bucket at best!
We want to get away from LEH’s not create new ones.
Your ideas are well written & thought of-I simply disagree with the solution! My $0.02!

I was trying to come up with a nice way to say it properly. This quote sums up my opinions quite well.

[longwalk]

Back when I used to fish on the Island we had a saying about the American fisherman out there. "They came with one pair of underwear and a twenty dollar bill and did not change either". I can see them coming up with an rv, all the gas and food they would need for a week and spend as little as possible on everything else. The fisherman would catch lots of little coho and can them on the boat, maybe the hunters ethics and mindset are different from the fishermen but I kind of doubt it.

[dana]

I don't believe Sask allows non-resident aliens to hunt unguided. They do however let non-resident Canadians hunt unguided and without a hunter host. And this is done with OTC tags too isn't it? While being alarmist and worry about the ethics of non-resident hunters seems like the easy thing to do, I wouldn't say resident hunters are any better. If you accepted legit hunter training from other jurisdictions and still made them take our online CORE, they might actually be better behaved hunters than the residents that live here.

I find it interesting that those who oppose an idea like this have not proposed other ideas to make us economically viable within this province. Come on people, think outside the box. How else do we generate revenue that will be deemed 'enough' by the general population of this province who do not hunt but like to see our economy grow? The Ecotourism sector has a crapload of support because it really brings dollars into the local economies. How can we show them hunting can do the same? Do we keep on infighting and loosing ground or do we do something to change and keeps us viable?

[tufferthandug]

Well maybe if each American Hunter came with his own MM ethics police officer I may comply. LOL.

[Dirty]

I don't believe Sask allows non-resident aliens to hunt unguided. They do however let non-resident Canadians hunt unguided and without a hunter host. And this is done with OTC tags too isn't it? While being alarmist and worry about the ethics of non-resident hunters seems like the easy thing to do, I wouldn't say resident hunters are any better. If you accepted legit hunter training from other jurisdictions and still made them take our online CORE, they might actually be better behaved hunters than the residents that live here.

I find it interesting that those who oppose an idea like this have not proposed other ideas to make us economically viable within this province.

Yeah the Saskatchewan season is changing is it not? Shit bags from all around Canada come to Trophy hunt, and upon not finding a trophy deer around every corner, they shoot a shit buck at the end of their trip. They shoot some 2-3 year old buck that hasn't even had a chance to grow. It is causing problems in the quality of deer in a lot of areas. This is really something we want to promote in BC. Come to Dana's Corner Store, we sell OTC tags, unemployed forestry worker guided trips, and will shoot dinks if we can't find a decent buck. Come on in to BC. Bring all your Yanks.

Let's sell out BC to make a buck for unemployed forestry workers and unemployed people in small towns.

You better bust out your trapline if you are unemployed because hell will freeze over before this crap happens in BC. BC Resident Hunters are first, after them comes everybody else.

[dana]

Dirty,
Tell us a better idea. It seems you don't want any resources from this province sold. Trees can stay up on the hills, gold and precious minerals can stay underground and power will remain ungenerated. Fish will not be caught and animals will not be killed. You better grow out those dreadlocks, not bathe and make all the 'free love' you can, because you will see this happen if we let the granolas have their way. Make love not war is a good way to keep the economy humming. :)

[Dirty]

Dirty,
Tell us a better idea. It seems you don't want any resources from this province sold. Trees can stay up on the hills, gold and precious minerals can stay underground and power will remain ungenerated. Fish will not be caught and animals will not be killed. You better grow out those dreadlocks, not bathe and make all the 'free love' you can, because you will see this happen if we let the granolas have their way. Make love not war is a good way to keep the economy humming. :)

You better start packing because Clearwater is going to look like Barriere and Louis Creek after the forests fires. Hope you like flipping burgers, because the grease does wonders for my dread locks. Jelvis is going to like my dread lock mulley-do.

Seems to me you were the one boo-hooing about the mine going up in your neck of the woods not too long ago.

I am going to do something, and get involved with the BCWF, so stupid ideas like yours don't get passed into effect and further ba$tardize our resources.

[dana]

We all have to take our stands against something. I for one didn't want to see glowing rocks hauled passed my living room window. Call me crazy but I don't really want health issues for my family. :)

BCWF is a good start. I, too, have just rejoined the flock.

[ultramagbob]

We all have to take our stands against something. I for one didn't want to see glowing rocks hauled passed my living room window.

Your house is on wheels...just move it

[Dirty]

We all have to take our stands against something. I for one didn't want to see glowing rocks hauled passed my living room window. Call me crazy but I don't really want health issues for my family. :)

BCWF is a good start. I, too, have just rejoined the flock.

You working on the part of the UFGOABC? :lol:

[dana]

Ain't no wheels under this house. While some might call me trailer trash, it just ain't true. :)

[ultramagbob]

Ain't no wheels under this house. While some might call me trailer trash, it just ain't true. :)

LOL The tires are flat or its up on blocks.Oops I had you confused with Rams

[Dirty]

Ain't no wheels under this house. While some might call me trailer trash, it just ain't true. :)

I find a hard time believing that.

[dana]

Gull dang it, I got meself a dogwood. I askin ya to show a little respec.

[ultramagbob]

Gull dang it, I got meself a dogwood. I askin ya to show a little respec.
All in good fun with me.That Dirty is just plain nasty,,God bless the reporta post function

[frenchbar]

Whats so bad about living in a trailer and livin in the bush eating bark:cool:it aint that bad,you city folk are just jelous:wink:

[Dirty]

Whats so bad about living in a trailer and livin in the bush eating bark:cool:it aint that bad,you city folk are just jelous:wink:

I am all for it, as long as you guys have your yearly worm medicine and don't drag your asses on my front lawn.

[mpotzold]

Maybe this will get “the photographer” to come out of the woodwork!:p
Him & Andy (AJWeaver) should compare notes! :roll:

NR DIY hunters in BC! :shock:GOD HELP US!

DANA “Lets pull the restrictions on nonresident aliens needing a guide and let’s give them a non-resident LEH draw system
GOABC can maintain their set percentage of allocations which would allow non-residents not willing to wait in the draw to jump ahead of the line and hunt like they already do.”

[okas]

it will be like the fee trade deal with Mexico
still poor in Mexico
we pay same price for stuff
every one in the middle making $$$$$ laughing going on a guided hunt Mexico and Canada


the only thing this country needs is every one to stop working and it would fall .. but that is not going to happen as a civil war might be first ..

[Bugle M In]

If any species is on LEH, than I think Resident hunters get first pick, with GO's getting a "small" percentage only, of those
LEH tags....period.
I would accept Non Residents without guides for GOS such as Black Bear and Deer...and Wolf.
Not so sure I would allow them for Moose or Elk (reason being, I think these critters are in big trouble in some Regions)
I do agree with one thing for sure.
Guides want LEH to be able to "Sell" their clients on "Trophy Sized Game"......But,
You are 110% right, they, The GO's, Don't target Trophy Sized Game, they will try and convince their client that this
270 class bull is a shooter.
Dana, I do really appreciate your passion for hunting, your knowledge and your thoughts.
I do agree with the fact that things need to change....all of it.
There is not enough time to approach these problems one at a time or decide which is the bigger problem etc.
They all need to be addressed at the same time.
As for GO's and where I stand on them is this.
In some regions of BC, where there is limited access, and vast areas that are hard to get into, I am all for GO's.
But in some areas, say like the EK watersheds, a GO can hit a valley very hard if they are good, almost like a wolf pack.
Some areas should not have GO's in my opinion.
As for the allocation, I just don't agree with the splits.
Reason being: the GO where I hunt is having a hard time making money....and, although I may be a bit suspicious of
what he is saying.....I believe him.
The issue for him though, is "Not the Lack of Clients", due to the fact he doesn't have enough permits.
He has "No Elk"!!, which directly influences how many "Repeat Customers" he gets plus the fact, that due to poor
success rates or limited elk sightings, the "Referrals" are not good.
And yes, he stated there are no elk around....and I have to agree....not like before.
Giving one group more permits to keep afloat isn't going to make a difference for them.
But yes, I agree, I do worry for us hunters and the generations to follow, like our sons and daughters.
It all needs to be overhauled, and someone has to have the balls to follow thru and "Getter Done"!
Because everywhere I turn, there is a sign saying I cant hunt there, or I cant hunt this, and its not your turn etc.
Why, because of a lot of Stupid Management Decisions, the lack of money in the Wildlife Management Program,
special interests groups getting special treatment, whether it's the GOABC, FN etc.
BC, although it a big province, a large territory of many oppurtunities...it is still to small to not be a "United Group".
The System is failing in my opinion, and its only a matter of time before it really gets screwed up.
Although I may not agree with some of your opinion and what direction you would like to see happening,
I do agree it can't stay like this.
Things have just been left for too long in a downward spiral, and it's showing now.
Just look a Trudeau and legalizing pot.
I'm all for it...but....
before you pull the trigger and open it to the public...free for all.
He better make sure he has it all covered, from A-Z, and what the rules are to keep it safe etc.
But no, he will just sign a paper, and than they will be fixing it with a rule here and a rule there for the next
30 years.
A solid plan, from all fronts needs to be drawn up for sure, so, I am good with the debate of peoples thoughts.
It's not about who is right and who is wrong, it's about what best for "All", now and in the future, and I hope the
Wildlife benefits the most, but, I am concerned that won't happen.
Just my thoughts...

[markomoose]

It'll never happen as long as I'm alive.I'd pitch in 2 dollars for every fall above & beyond my licence/tags to combat or fund an initiative that allows myself and my kids to retain their right to hunt and fish this spectacular province.This thread is almost 7 years old??WTF!!

[Bugle M In]

S***, your right, its an old thread......alright, who was it that pulled this out of the archives!!!!!!!
Waste of time....lock this one up!it's expired!