NEWS: Hunting Allocations Favour Tourist vs Local Hunters

[BCrams]

http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/kelownacapitalnews/news/42649132.html


This is province wide issue right now.

One just needs to look at the Region 5 Mule deer post for example.


Hunting allocations favour tourists over local hunters

By Judie Steeves - Kelowna Capital News

Published: April 07, 2009 10:00 PM
Updated: April 07, 2009 10:18 PM


B.C.’s resident hunters are losing out to non-residents in the way the provincial government is allocating Limited Entry Hunting (LEH) permits, and it’s going to get worse if hunters don’t stand up for their rights.

That’s the word from Al Springer, a director for both the Peachland Sportsman’s Association and the Okanagan Region of the B.C. Wildlife Federation.

He’s been involved for a number of years in discussions between hunters, guide-outfitters and the government on policy for allocation of hunting licenses.

He says the attitude of this government is that hunting should be a commercially-viable business, not just a sport that allows local hunters to fill their freezers with meat for their families while they enjoy the outdoors.

That means that trophy hunting by visitors to the province (who are only permitted to hunt here with a licensed guide/outfitter) is being favoured when allocation decisions are made.

And, that goes against the province’s allocation policy, says Springer.

“Hunting should be managed based on science and we should be following the policy,” he says. Yet, non-resident hunters took 14 of the moose harvested in this region in 2007, while residents harvested only 50, a split of 28 per cent for the non-resident trophy hunter, instead of the agreed-upon 15 per cent.

Since the LEH permits are given out by way of a draw, the odds of getting a moose tag are 20 to one, while the non-resident is just given one when he pays for it, slanting the harvest in favour of those with money and against those without.

“It’s not fair, and it runs contrary to what was agreed upon,” he says.
“We’ve asked for an increase in the number of LEHs this year. In many cases, these animals will just die on the highway and the meat wasted if we don’t have an opportunity to hunt them for meat to feed our families.”

Contrary to the provincial government’s policy of encouraging more hunting in B.C., such inequities have resulted in fewer people having the opportunity to hunt here, he says.

Because the government’s policy is that this is “use it or lose it,” Springer says it’s likely the allocation to local hunters will drop even further in future unless more LEHs are up for draw, because only a small percentage of those who get a draw actually harvest an animal.

On the other hand, non-residents using trained guides nearly always fill out their quota.
Guide/outfitters generally prefer the LEH system of managing game because it means there will be fewer hunters participating, and a better quality hunt for their clients, with less competition, he says.

jsteeves@kelownacapnews.com

[blacktailslayer]

Thank you Gordie Campbell.

[silvicon]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.


If it's only about money why not just sign over the whole friggin province to the GO's!!!???
Give us a friggin break!!!!

It that you, Gordo???

Holy biased, exagerated opinion batman!!!
WTF!!???

SSS

[Gunner]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.Mouthpeice for the G/Os?Is the Allocation policy putting money in YOUR pockets while the rest of us lose our hunting rights?Enquiring minds would like to know! Gunner

[Sitkaspruce]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.

Out for a little troll Silvicon????

You can stereo type most hunters by what means???

And I glad that guys like Springer are whinning, because it is guys like you who screw up for the rest of us and Gord always love to here guys like you. Tells him he is doing a great job.

Keep trolling, we need to get guys like you banned:razz:

Cheers

SS

[mark]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.

Hmmm... i was gonna reply to some of the stuff you said, then it occurred to me that your just an ignorant dip$hit, so why waste my time! :mad:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Hmmm... i was gonna reply to some of the stuff you said, then it occurred to me that your just an ignorant dip$hit, so why waste my time! :mad:

This is the same guy that thinks it's a great idea for guides to apply for an LEH just so they can tie up and resident's tag.

"palmer,
any moose tag a guide ties up keeps one resident hunter
(and possible a few hangers-on) out of the area."

Dip$hit is being nice.

:mad:

SSS

[Squirrelnuts]

Mouthpeice for the G/Os?Is the Allocation policy putting money in YOUR pockets while the rest of us lose our hunting rights?Enquiring minds would like to know! Gunner


http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=307028#post307028


moose in our guiding area.
and no, I won't use the tag.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=24163


any moose tag a guide ties up keeps one resident hunter
(and possible a few hangers-on) out of the area.

[one-shot-wonder]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.

Good one........

Try to throw every hunter under the bus while your at it!

The ~230 outfitters in this province bring F-all in comparison to BC res's wen it comes down to money.

I guess the horses and Jet boats & ATV's hunters use for harvesting game dont put money into local areas either????

Oh and then there are tags, and the dreaded LEH permits.......

[elkdom]

1. BC residents pay 110% for wildlife initiatives,wildlife infrastructure, habitat conservation and enhancement, not to mention tolerating a bunch of OUT of CONTROL Politicians spending BILLIONS of $$$ building MONUMENTS for their own twisted vanity!

2. vast numbers of B.C. , GO's operating Licensed Guiding territories are OWNED by non-BC residents, non-Canadian ownership! operating seasonal Hunting and Fishing opportunities to WEALTHY tourists,,,

3. really? who should reap the best of hunting opportunities in BC?
if and when the game is scarce or gone completely, does anyone think that tourists from other countries will be chipping in money and personal effort to restore dwindling or unhealthy game herds? not friggen likely! those wealthy tourists will simply look for other opportunities in other countries!

[Gateholio]

Let's can the insults, please....

[mark]

Let's can the insults, please....


Wow... what a thread killer!

[bridger]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.



you are either a guide or a very misinformed resident hunter. if it is the former I fear there is no help for you. If you are merely misinformed and a resident hunter perhaps you should look at your hole card.

[Mr. Dean]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.



Exactly why I keep *hoping* that the LEH system will be seen as a barrier to resident successes and either be revamped (issue of more tags in order to meet allocation, or....) or completely revoked in some circumstances.

[Mr. Dean]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=307028#post307028



http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=24163


If there was EVER a reason to pony up and become a member of the BCFW, this is it!

[pikey]

So why do we as resident hunters give unconditional support to the G\Os when its all over the news the granolas want to shut down trophy hunting by foreigners?

Seems the G\O's are perfectly willing to throw resident hunters under the Bus maybe the favour needs to be returned.

[Riverratz]

So ............G/O's contribute so much to the BC economy eh? Let's see now ?

In '08, six of us resident hunters headed up north together for a NON-GUIDED multi-species hunt for about 21 days......2 trucks/campers & 2 boats/trailers.

Direct cost of that particular hunt (fuel/food/supplies, etc.) ....$ 6000.00 +
Licenses & tags.............................................. ...................$ 1000.00 +
Lunches/dinners and incidentals along the way........................$ 500.00 +
AND, then there's the rest of the stuff............
Two BC built jet boats and trailers.....................................$100, 000.00 +
Two trucks............................................ ....................... $120,000.00 +
Two campers........................................... ......................$ 80,000.00 +
Misc. camp gear and equipment......................................... .$ 8,000.00 +
Firearms, ammo, related equipment.....................................$10, 000.00 +
Personal hunting gear, clothing, etc....................................$15,000.00 +
TOTAL..........$340,500.00 +

Note that the top items were the costs of only one hunt that year, and represents money that was injected directly into BC businesses along the way. It doesn't include all the vehicles/trailers/boats, etc. owned by the other 4 guys, probably in the neighbourhood of another $300,000.00
All the other costs represent money spent in BC businesses, taxes, etc., over the years by us lowly resident hunters. That's a grand total of about $650,000.00, .............and we keep on buying and spending.

COST TO PROVINCE............$0.00 (oops, sorry they had to print the licenses)

No one will ever convince us that we residents don't pay our fair share for the privileges that we so much enjoy and love, all while sometimes having to endure the sneers, harassment, comments and outright threats by some G/O's and their loyal assistants over the years so they can preserve their own little piece of hunting heaven unto themselves.

[horshur]

The deal about the alocation is a stretch no disrespect intended however.

Just because non residents have better harvest odds is not the goverment or the managers fault.

the tags were given out and residents failed to fill them is all........sorta seen that one coming......and now as part of the whole deal some more tags will be handed out to non residents.
who's fault is that???

[GoatGuy]

Hunting allocations favour tourists over local hunters
By: Judie Steeves
Kelowna Capital News
April 7, 2009
http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/kelownacapitalnews/news/42649132.html
B.C.’s resident hunters are losing out to non-residents in the way the provincial government is allocating Limited Entry Hunting (LEH) permits, and it’s going to get worse if hunters don’t stand up for their rights.
That’s the word from Al Springer, a director for both the Peachland Sportsman’s Association and the Okanagan Region of the B.C. Wildlife Federation.
He’s been involved for a number of years in discussions between hunters, guide-outfitters and the government on policy for allocation of hunting licenses.
He says the attitude of this government is that hunting should be a commercially-viable business, not just a sport that allows local hunters to fill their freezers with meat for their families while they enjoy the outdoors.
That means that trophy hunting by visitors to the province (who are only permitted to hunt here with a licensed guide/outfitter) is being favoured when allocation decisions are made.
And, that goes against the province’s allocation policy, says Springer.
“Hunting should be managed based on science and we should be following the policy,” he says. Yet, non-resident hunters took 14 of the moose harvested in this region in 2007, while residents harvested only 50, a split of 28 per cent for the non-resident trophy hunter, instead of the agreed-upon 15 per cent.
Since the LEH permits are given out by way of a draw, the odds of getting a moose tag are 20 to one, while the non-resident is just given one when he pays for it, slanting the harvest in favour of those with money and against those without.
“It’s not fair, and it runs contrary to what was agreed upon,” he says.
“We’ve asked for an increase in the number of LEHs this year. In many cases, these animals will just die on the highway and the meat wasted if we don’t have an opportunity to hunt them for meat to feed our families.”
Contrary to the provincial government’s policy of encouraging more hunting in B.C., such inequities have resulted in fewer people having the opportunity to hunt here, he says.
Because the government’s policy is that this is “use it or lose it,” Springer says it’s likely the allocation to local hunters will drop even further in future unless more LEHs are up for draw, because only a small percentage of those who get a draw actually harvest an animal.
On the other hand, non-residents using trained guides nearly always fill out their quota.
Guide/outfitters generally prefer the LEH system of managing game because it means there will be fewer hunters participating, and a better quality hunt for their clients, with less competition, he says.
jsteeves@kelownacapnews.com

[boxhitch]

the tags were given out and residents failed to fill them is all........sorta seen that one coming....its a given fact that hunter success is never going to be 100%. But the restrictive number of permits given out will never allow the residents to achieve their quota, knowing the success rates. Thats where the pinch is. Double the authorizations and the quota is achieved. AND twice as many residents get to go hunting, whatever the skill level is. WIN-WIN

[GoatGuy]

All letters to the editor go to


edit@kelownacapnews.com

cc jsteeves@kelownacapnews.com

[BCrams]

Double the authorizations and the quota is achieved. AND twice as many residents get to go hunting, whatever the skill level is. WIN-WIN

And..........

Reduce the quota for Guide Outfitters to bring things in line with the allocation policy.

[boxhitch]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.Spoken like a true sell-out. Who says it has to be about money? Why should I have to hunt the way you see fit ?

[GoatGuy]

The deal about the alocation is a stretch no disrespect intended however.

Just because non residents have better harvest odds is not the goverment or the managers fault.

the tags were given out and residents failed to fill them is all........sorta seen that one coming......and now as part of the whole deal some more tags will be handed out to non residents.
who's fault is that???

Sorry Horshur you're wrong. We've been dealing with this since 2007. Conference calls, emails, flights and the whole bit.

At the end of the day residents are getting screwed just like every other LEH hunt pretty much across the province. The manager knows what he's supposed to do and he's refused despite being told by superiors.

It's simple cut loose more LEH tags. Very easy. Truth be told the guides should have been cutback 3 years ago to 10 bulls not the 19 that they currently are.

The whole thing is absolute, complete, and total garbage.

[GoatGuy]

We need everyone to write a letter to the editor on this one.

The mailbox needs to be filled here folks.

Unless you don't want to ever go moose hunting in the southern half of the Province and stay on LEH for the rest of it SPEAK YOUR MIND - this is your chance.

We've failed ourselves for the past 25+ years. Now's the time to get things turned around.


Editor: edit@kelownacapnews.com

cc jsteeves@kelownacapnews.com

[leadpillproductions]

this is the main reason im makin dvds to show you dont have to use a guiding out fitter there is a place for them but we are being screwed over
it sucks you will not see me do a guided hunt except antelope maybe lol

[GoatGuy]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.

Thank-you for your help. :grin::biggrin:


The uninformed, un-educated opinion helps.


Resident hunters appreciate it.

[Gateholio]

Here is my letter

I was enraged after Reading Judie Steeves article about how BC resident hunters are being cut out of their opportunity to harvest meat to feed their families.

Recently, the BC government started a campaign to recruit more resident hunters, but now appear to be trying to squeeze the resident out by not allowing enough resident tags to be issued to meet harvest numbers. The allocation policy has been unfairly implemented in a way to guarantee that residents would have less chance to harvest their share of moose, and thereby increase the number of animals allocated to guides who cater to wealthy American and European hunters.

At 20:1 odds of even drawing a moose tag, it’s no wonder that residents can’t meet their harvest goals. I’ve gone years without drawing a moose tag, yet a wealthy foreigner can buy a tag every year and shoot a trophy for their wall while my freezer remains empty.

With unnecessary antler restrictions on many ungulates, seasons designed to promote “trophy style” and not “meat” hunting and the limited number of resident LEH tags made available I wonder who the government and wildlife managers are working for?

It seems they are working for the guide-outfitters who profit from the sale of hunts to wealthy foreigners that come to BC to trophy hunt. They sure aren’t working for the residents of BC who are trying to fill their freezers with organic meat for families to eat.

[6616]

Good job guys, here's my contribution:

Letter to the Editor:

It was very interesting to read the recent Judie Steeves article on resident moose hunting in the Okanagan Region.
http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/kelownacapitalnews/news/42649132.html (mhtml:{09A407A8-972C-48B4-96E9-66C975CC0012}mid://00000028/!x-usc:http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/kelownacapitalnews/news/42649132.html)
I’m very sure Mr. Springer’s frustrations are shared by many across the province since the situation he describes is wide spread across BC and is most assuredly not limited to the Okanagan.

For example in the East Kootenay we have witnessed the non-resident moose quota assigned to guide-outfitters rise from 15 to over 100 since moose went on LEH in 1991. At the same time a BC resident must put in for a moose draw at 20:1 odds, basically the same as saying he can only go moose hunting once every twenty years.

In the Skeena region moose quota has increased by five fold for non-residents while resident moose hunters are on a limited draw system. Thinhorn sheep harvest in the north is dominated by non-resident trophy harvest. Mountain goat harvests across the province are dominated by non-resident trophy harvests. Nearly all moose and goat hunting in the province is now LEH. Non-resident hunters are allocated about 25 to 30 percent of the overall wildlife harvest in BC, while at the same time non-resident harvest is limited to 10% in nearly all other western states and provinces.

Is the emphasis on big game management in BC leaning too far towards providing trophies for wealthy foreigners, thus making it increasingly difficult for BC resident hunters to fill their deep freezes?

Perhaps this question can be answered by observing that in the East Kootenay bull elk are on a 6pt antler restriction even though the East Kootenay is practically over-run with elk. Mule deer management across the province is dominated by 4pt antler restrictions, and even white tailed deer in the Peace River are managed with a 4pt horn restriction. The Caribou Region is planning to restict mule deer harvest even though agriculture depredation by mule deer is at an all time high,,, why,,,, because there is a concept there are too few mature (trophy) bucks. Add that to the fact that in many regions deer are the only species left that resident meat hunters can pursue without putting in for a high odds draw.

Maybe it’s time for a change in attitude in game management in BC. There are 80,000 resident hunters whose primary interest is only to put some high quality meat in the freezer each fall, and in spite of increasing and stable game populations that appears to be more difficult every year as management emphasis appears to be shifting more and more towards attracting non-resident trophy hunters.

Submitted By:

[willy442]

Thank-you for your help. :grin::biggrin:


The uninformed, un-educated opinion helps.


Resident hunters appreciate it.


How do you figure, uneducated and uninformed?

The point everyone on this site is missing continually is; The wildlife of this province belongs to the people period. Not the hunter as everyone here thinks. With that in mind and the fact that the political arena operates on the almighty dollar, resident hunters are on the short end continually, blame the G/O's if you want. Fact of the matter is, the math is a very simple sell. The nonresident is organized and pays a very high dollar for what he hunts to a proffessional, this is alot easier to sell politically to the nonhunting joint owners of our wildlife. It is made even easier by the clowns that go out and shoot up signs, leave trash, wounded or dead game and strap uncovered animals to thier trucks and trailers showing off to the general public thinking they are hero's.

This is another prime example of a bunch of unorganized individuals, sitting at home in thier easy boy's, crying wolf now that time is getting short again. Next will come the bitching at the BCWF for letting you all down again. :roll:

[Mr. Dean]

.

This is another prime example of a bunch of unorganized individuals, sitting at home in thier easy boy's, crying wolf now that time is getting short again. Next will come the bitching at the BCWF for letting you all down again. :roll:


Willy makes a valid point.

It's time to change things up ----> NOW! Get involved with your resource.

[squamishmiles]

Ok, I'm new to hunting and too this forum. The only person I know personally here is Gatehouse and he is one of the people that got me interested in hunting,I love being out there and the byproduct is some very lean and tasty meat. Now it seems that the government wants too take that away from me. What do we do to stop it? I know that a thousend voices are louder then one, so who do we call, write, email or just yell at to get our voices heard? It seems we need a strong and loud voice on this issue, I know Gatehouse has booth of those and loves hunting more then anyone i know. So lets all get together on this one see what we can do. If we need a leader on this I think Gatehouse would be a great one. Just my @ cents

[Blainer]

Why don't they post the G.O.'s territory to the highest bidder each year.
Seems to me it would produce more money and wonder who would bitch about that?
Especially if the local hunters all got together to purchase the rights as a group of say a 1000 or more.

[bridger]

it is time for every resident hunter to voice his/her displeasure concerning the present state of affairs demonstrated on this thread. begin by sending your emails to edit@kelownacapnews.com (edit@kelownacapnews.com)

You should also cc Judie. jsteeves@kelownacapnews.com (jsteeves@kelownacapnews.com)

if you feel strongly about non residents having better hunting opporutinities email your thoughts to the above addresses

[Jelvis]

Hey ah Willy ah, I think the reg's used to say the animals belong to the crown or ah government or has that been changed. I think it said something like all animals are owned by the crown? Please correct me if I'm imagining that. lol, sorry can't find any regulations anywhere right at the moment. If someone could maybe scan that and then a person could go from there maybe, not sure about that tho -- anyone with ah the computer skills to post that is it is still in them thar reg's.
Used to be something like that --- maybe changed now -- thanks in advance. J.P.

[Micky Finn]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.

You Sir have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. :? Most resident hunters work very hard to try to harvest an animal, after all they have usually waited years to get it.

As far as the guided hunt being better for the economy, residents spend much more than non-residents. Compare the number of firearms, trucks, quads, river boats, campers, wall tents etc. that 80,000 residents own compared to those owned by the few hundred guides.

Furthermore, we, the residents, own the resource and therefore have a right to access. We have chosen to share our bounty with those less fortunate, they should never get impression that they have any rights to the resource or that there is an obligation for anyone to guarantee the economic viability of the guiding industry.

[Sitkaspruce]

Why don't they post the G.O.'s territory to the highest bidder each year.
Seems to me it would produce more money and wonder who would bitch about that?
Especially if the local hunters all got together to purchase the rights as a group of say a 1000 or more.

LOL!!I know you are joking........

The anti would love that. They would buy it all up, then get the FN involved and we would lose the area. Just look at what is happening on the mid-coast and soon the QCI.

What I do not get is that there is enough of the pie for everyone, maybe not enough trophy pie, but enough of a pie for all.

The letter writing and such will help, but maybe a CIVIL protest action in front of the MLA's in the area might be better.

Cheers

SS

[willy442]

[quote=Blainer;441809]Why don't they post the G.O.'s territory to the highest bidder each year.
Seems to me it would produce more money and wonder who would bitch about that?
Especially if the local hunters all got together to purchase the rights as a group of say a 1000 or more.[/quote

Blainer: The problems here are not the G/O's. The problem exists entirely on account of lack of organization and proper representation of the resident hunter. The G/O has a business to run and he will continue to do so no matter if you and others like it or not. He will stay strong, because he is organized, has funds and people working on his behalf to protect his interests. The crying and Outfitter bashing on here is exactly what has gone on for years and the G/O's generate alot of success from this in thier political arena. The big thing is the government puts a value on our wildlife much like timber and fish. Who ever can generate the most funds out of the renewable resource is going to carry the most clout in the end. Like I said before the wildlife belongs to everyone and with this in mind they will not and should not make rules just to appease the resident hunter, but must consider everyone in the province.

[willy442]

Hey ah Willy ah, I think the reg's used to say the animals belong to the crown or ah government or has that been changed. I think it said something like all animals are owned by the crown? Please correct me if I'm imagining that. lol, sorry can't find any regulations anywhere right at the moment. If someone could maybe scan that and then a person could go from there maybe, not sure about that tho -- anyone with ah the computer skills to post that is it is still in them thar reg's.
Used to be something like that --- maybe changed now -- thanks in advance. J.P.

Tell me. Is the crown not the people of the province indirectly?

[Jelvis]

Willy ah, you got me on that one, Crown? Hmmm good one. Not sure on that one.
Could be or? Not sure.
Lance

[Gateholio]

Ok, I'm new to hunting and too this forum. The only person I know personally here is Gatehouse and he is one of the people that got me interested in hunting,I love being out there and the byproduct is some very lean and tasty meat. Now it seems that the government wants too take that away from me. What do we do to stop it? I know that a thousend voices are louder then one, so who do we call, write, email or just yell at to get our voices heard? It seems we need a strong and loud voice on this issue, I know Gatehouse has booth of those and loves hunting more then anyone i know. So lets all get together on this one see what we can do. If we need a leader on this I think Gatehouse would be a great one. Just my @ cents

Thanks for the endorsement, but the best way is the simple way- Join/donate to the BCWF, and write letters.
:tongue:

[Micky Finn]

[quote=Blaine;441809]Why don't they post the G.O.'s territory to the highest bidder each year.
Seems to me it would produce more money and wonder who would bitch about that?
Especially if the local hunters all got together to purchase the rights as a group of say a 1000 or more.[/quote

Blaine: The problems here are not the G/O's. The problem exists entirely on account of lack of organization and proper representation of the resident hunter. The G/O has a business to run and he will continue to do so no matter if you and others like it or not. He will stay strong, because he is organized, has funds and people working on his behalf to protect his interests. The crying and Outfitter bashing on here is exactly what has gone on for years and the G/O's generate alto of success from this in their political arena. The big thing is the government puts a value on our wildlife much like timber and fish. Who ever can generate the most funds out of the renewable resource is going to carry the most clout in the end. Like I said before the wildlife belongs to everyone and with this in mind they will not and should not make rules just to appease the resident hunter, but must consider everyone in the province.

Willy, I believe that any full economic study will find that the resident sector spends far more money on tags and supplies, contributes more in taxes, and overall has a much greater overall economic influence than non-resident sector however as that impact is much more diverse it is much harder to assemble the funds for an effective political campaign. Even with 30,000 members the BCWF cannot compete dollar for dollar with GOABC.
The allocation policy gives residents priority access to the resource but the regional managers continue to ignore it.

[willy442]

[quote=willy442;441826]

Willy, I believe that any full economic study will find that the resident sector spends far more money on tags and supplies, contributes more in taxes, and overall has a much greater overall economic influence than non-resident sector however as that impact is much more diverse it is much harder to assemble the funds for an effective political campaign. Even with 30,000 members the BCWF cannot compete dollar for dollar with GOABC.
The allocation policy gives residents priority access to the resource but the regional managers continue to ignore it.

I don't entirely disagree with you, my point was the numbers 40,000.00 for a Stone Sheep to a nonresident and lets say 1500.00 to a resident. If you were a BC resident that didn't hunt and was lead to look at the value of the animal his province was selling. Who would you support? Remember there are many more nonhunters than hunters, not even counting the anti's.
I credit people like Bridger and some others, that have put alot of time and effort into what we have today. I don't have the answers but I do think it's time for some new angles to be worked instead of fighting the battle solely with a dieing breed. (The Hunter)

[Gateholio]

If we polled everyone in the province, (the wildlife owners) and asked them who they woudl prefer to harvest wildlife, the vast majority would say that they would rather there not be any trophy hunting by "RIch Yankees" regardless of the price tag paid to the outfitter.

Most people don't have a problem with hunting, but do have issues with someone "jetting in, shooting an animal, cutting off it's head and going home"

[Gateholio]

[quote=willy442;441826]

Willy, I believe that any full economic study will find that the resident sector spends far more money on tags and supplies, contributes more in taxes, and overall has a much greater overall economic influence than non-resident sector however as that impact is much more diverse it is much harder to assemble the funds for an effective political campaign. Even with 30,000 members the BCWF cannot compete dollar for dollar with GOABC.
The allocation policy gives residents priority access to the resource but the regional managers continue to ignore it.

This is something that hasn't been properly communicated- How much the resident spends- especially compared to the average non resident hunters that drop about $5000 on a moose or bear hunt, not the few stone sheep hunters spending $30 000.

Gv't only looks at the price of a tag and hunt and decide that non residents are more valuable, but residents are contributing to the economy year after year, and year round. And they vote.

We shoudl be better at communicating this.:smile:

[Deadshot]

[quote=willy442;441826]
The allocation policy gives residents priority access to the resource but the regional managers continue to ignore it.
Who holds these regional managers to task; or, can they do as they please with no consequences?

[GoatGuy]

How do you figure, uneducated and uninformed?

The point everyone on this site is missing continually is; The wildlife of this province belongs to the people period. Not the hunter as everyone here thinks. With that in mind and the fact that the political arena operates on the almighty dollar, resident hunters are on the short end continually, blame the G/O's if you want. Fact of the matter is, the math is a very simple sell. The nonresident is organized and pays a very high dollar for what he hunts to a proffessional, this is alot easier to sell politically to the nonhunting joint owners of our wildlife. It is made even easier by the clowns that go out and shoot up signs, leave trash, wounded or dead game and strap uncovered animals to thier trucks and trailers showing off to the general public thinking they are hero's.

This is another prime example of a bunch of unorganized individuals, sitting at home in thier easy boy's, crying wolf now that time is getting short again. Next will come the bitching at the BCWF for letting you all down again. :roll:

Let me make it very simple for you. Resident hunters:

Spend the most time and dollars on conservation efforts Province wide
Generate far more jobs
Generate far more dollars
Own the wildlife as citizens of BC
And are far more supported by the public

The part you don't get is nobody, even most resident hunters do not support trophy hunting. That is a fact! Don't believe me do some research or put it to the test.

There are around 250 guide-outfitters and about 90,000 resident hunters. It's a simple story - resident hunters can't go hunting because people from America and Europe are here to shoot an animal and take the horns home.

I don't think anybody will be bitching at the bcwf. Trust me on that one!

I support guide-outfitting when there's a surplus but when a resident hunter has to wait 50 years on average to harvest an LEH bull moose in Region 8 something has gone wrong. Residents have been taking it since the early 80s and it's time to turn things around.

At one point residents harvested 92+% of the moose province wide. That's been cut to close to 80% over the past 25+ years. That's another 3-5000 resident hunters going moose hunting every year NO PROBLEM without changing the management regime. Changing the management regimes we could put 10,000 more residents afield without causing any kind of problem.

Resident hunters have been put on LEH across the Province for no good reason and while their tags and opportunity were cut outfitters were handed more and more and more quota. That happened across the Province and it isn't right.

I don't mind sharing but enough is enough!

[6616]

Who holds these regional managers to task; or, can they do as they please with no consequences?

Well it looks like Fish and Wildlife HQ in Victoria doesn't hold them accountable, so maybe we "John Q. Citizen" should demand some answers ouselves from both the Regional Managers and HQ...and if we don't get answers we should then ask our local MLAs why not.....

[Riverratz]

[QUOTE=Micky Finn;441844]

This is something that hasn't been properly communicated- How much the resident spends- especially compared to the average non resident hunters that drop about $5000 on a moose or bear hunt, not the few stone sheep hunters spending $30 000.

Gv't only looks at the price of a tag and hunt and decide that non residents are more valuable, but residents are contributing to the economy year after year, and year round. And they vote.

We shoudl be better at communicating this.:smile:

This was exactly the point of my post on page 2.

I don't think the math. is really all that complicated.
How many resident hunters are there in any given year, for all species.?
Some guess work here;
If ? there are 150,000 resident hunters, each spending a conservative $500/yr (and that's really conservative I think) that works out to $75 million. That doesn't include all the extra's; food, fuel, guns, trucks, etc. etc. etc. At a more likely $1000/yr/hunter that would be $150 million, plus all the extras noted.

If there are 250 G/O in the Prov., guiding an average of 20 hunters each, at an average of $5000/hunter, that's $25 million. Even at $10,000/hunter it's still only $50 million......compared to the what residents inject into the economy.

Obviously my numbers could be completely out of wack, but I think I might be sort of remotely close. In terms of who carries the financial big stick, it's obviously the residents, BUT things seem to favor the G/O's.???.......why is that ???
Is some squeaky wheel getting greased ? Hmmmmmmm

Obviously resident hunters need to be completely organized and work together as a cohesive unit for one common goal. We already have the organization and the means......it's called BCWF.......but we need EVERY hunter as a member, without exception. There is no valid reason to not belong. Imagine the political clout with 150,000 members.

[GoatGuy]

I don't entirely disagree with you, my point was the numbers 40,000.00 for a Stone Sheep to a nonresident and lets say 1500.00 to a resident. If you were a BC resident that didn't hunt and was lead to look at the value of the animal his province was selling. Who would you support? Remember there are many more nonhunters than hunters, not even counting the anti's.
I credit people like Bridger and some others, that have put alot of time and effort into what we have today. I don't have the answers but I do think it's time for some new angles to be worked instead of fighting the battle solely with a dieing breed. (The Hunter)

Where did you get the $1500 from? Arbitrarily make that up is my guess?

Last year we spent at least $4000K hunting between planes and gas, food nevermind horses, gear and all the rest of that shit. We didn't harvest a ram, not that we couldn't have.

But for argument's sake lets say $1000/hunter per trip to be conservative by the time flights/walk-ins, local hunters, food, gas and all the rest of that is divided up. That does not include gear which is pretty much all purchased in BC and adds up when binos are 1000-2000 and spotters are 2000+.

Anyways, average success is ~18% and around 1450 hunters which puts the estimate at ~$5550/dead animal. Funny - no where near the knuckle-dragger estimate!


Also of those $40,000 of non-resident cash how many of them stay in BC? Half the owners are not even residents up north anymore. Certainly $40,000 is not the average price (most in region 6 and even 7B are WAY below this), and you forgot to mention trophy fees and to factor in success rates. Can't say I'm surprised.

Not to mention things like deer are elastic in the sense that with more of a quantity approach you can put way more hunters afield and generate way more $$$, versus the trophy approach where you have to cut the harvest in half and the number of hunters by 2/3.

Per the usual a slanted view with absolutely no understanding of the numbers or public support. Can't say I'm surprised. Grade 6 would have been a good year to attend class - only once though, not 3 times.

[bridger]

regarding the post a couple of pages back as to "who holds the regional managers accountable." In my experience no one they are an island to themselves and have to be re connected to the mainland. the manager is region 5 would not admit to setting the new deer season in region 5 when I asked him about it yesterday. he merely said he and his staff advised victoria and victoria made the decision. that is pure bull shit and there in lies the problem with the moe. no one will take respponsibility for their acts and it is time they did.

[Johnnybear]

Great thread guys. I have always been a strong believer that the resident hunter contributes WAY more to the province than the "guests". There is no funny math just the truth about the input to the local economy. Some people are getting brown envelope's IMO.

[bigwhiteys]

Great thread guys. I have always been a strong believer that the resident hunter contributes WAY more to the province than the "guests". There is no funny math just the truth about the input to the local economy.

I don't buy for a second every BC hunter is spending all their hard earned "hunting" dollars in the province. Do a search on this forum for Cabelas, Bass Pro, Mail Order, Ebay...

Guys are buying boats, trucks, atvs south of the border, any other gear they can get for a better deal... I'm guilty of it too.

Gas, Tags and Groceries you gotta buy at home, everything else can be bought elsewhere and usually cheaper.

Carl

[bridger]

I don't buy for a second every BC hunter is spending all their hard earned "hunting" dollars in the province. Do a search on this forum for Cabelas, Bass Pro, Mail Order, Ebay...

Guys are buying boats, trucks, atvs south of the border, any other gear they can get for a better deal... I'm guilty of it too.

Gas, Tags and Groceries you gotta buy at home, everything else can be bought elsewhere and usually cheaper.

Carl

while some of the equipment bought by resident hunters is out of province the vast majority is spent in bc. also don't forget many resident families use their holidays for hunting and therefore don't spend the winter at disney land. when our boys were growing up we spent our summers in the mountains hunting. they have never been to disney land but they have been to the head of the muskwa.

[GoatGuy]

I don't buy for a second every BC hunter is spending all their hard earned "hunting" dollars in the province. Do a search on this forum for Cabelas, Bass Pro, Mail Order, Ebay...

Guys are buying boats, trucks, atvs south of the border, any other gear they can get for a better deal... I'm guilty of it too.

Gas, Tags and Groceries you gotta buy at home, everything else can be bought elsewhere and usually cheaper.

Carl

So what arbitrary number are you going to assign to it?

Nobody said every resident hunter buys all their gear in BC.

[mark]

I don't buy for a second every BC hunter is spending all their hard earned "hunting" dollars in the province. Do a search on this forum for Cabelas, Bass Pro, Mail Order, Ebay...

Guys are buying boats, trucks, atvs south of the border, any other gear they can get for a better deal... I'm guilty of it too.

Gas, Tags and Groceries you gotta buy at home, everything else can be bought elsewhere and usually cheaper.

Carl

Im not saying that your statement is wrong, but speaking for myself here, I own all of the above mentioned gear toys and equipment. Every piece of hunting gear I own was purchased here in BC, and I still spend a whack of $ on hunting every year.

As far as joining the BCWF, Ive phoned a couple lazy buddies and kicked them in the ass to join up and they did! (the quad insurance thing is a good angle) If every BCWF member did this we could double or triple the membership numbers, have some serious power to fight this crap!!!

[bigwhiteys]

So what arbitrary number are you going to assign to it?

That's your job stats man.

Nobody said every resident hunter buys all their gear in BC.

I never said they did or didn't either...

Didn't you mention in another thread you bought a truck in the USA?


while some of the equipment bought by resident hunters is out of province the vast majority is spent in bc.

Would love to see those numbers... With the average BC resident making less then $40,000 a year take home how much are we really spending on hunting excursions and equipment after living expenses and other bills...?

Most BC residents can't afford a $50,000+ custom riverboat, $15,000+ horse trailer, $50,000 truck to pull it all and then the property to feed a packstring 365 days a year. I don't have any of that... It's just not fair!

Carl

[willy442]

If we polled everyone in the province, (the wildlife owners) and asked them who they woudl prefer to harvest wildlife, the vast majority would say that they would rather there not be any trophy hunting by "RIch Yankees" regardless of the price tag paid to the outfitter.

Most people don't have a problem with hunting, but do have issues with someone "jetting in, shooting an animal, cutting off it's head and going home"

Gatehouse; I beg to differ with you on these matters. The days of cutting off horns and leaving meat are gone. Our hunting attracts tourism dollars and is promoted as such. The fact is the resident hunters cannot ever agree and come together with a united front on issue's. The G/O's and the promoters of tourism in our back country can. Until this changes the government will support the injection of new money into the economy, before supporting the recirculation of existing funds. Granted they will continue to try and keep the resident hunter happy, while reaping as much money as possible. None of this is new, it just keeps going around and around in a big circle. I can remember a few years back when the Chamber of Commerce actually helped G/O's with funding to promote our hunting and back country in Europe.

To respond to your last sentence. In many cases the resident hunter has burned his own bridges in gathering of support by John Q public. A prime example of this is all the excellent deer land along the Peace River, between Hudson Hope and Fort St John. These farmers, many of which I know personnally, have absolutly no use for the resident hunter due to the past conduct of a few. They have no problem giving permission to the local G/O to hunt and I know other areas of the province that are the same.

[willy442]

Where did you get the $1500 from? Arbitrarily make that up is my guess?

Last year we spent at least $4000K hunting between planes and gas, food nevermind horses, gear and all the rest of that shit. We didn't harvest a ram, not that we couldn't have.

But for argument's sake lets say $1000/hunter per trip to be conservative by the time flights/walk-ins, local hunters, food, gas and all the rest of that is divided up. That does not include gear which is pretty much all purchased in BC and adds up when binos are 1000-2000 and spotters are 2000+.

Anyways, average success is ~18% and around 1450 hunters which puts the estimate at ~$5550/dead animal. Funny - no where near the knuckle-dragger estimate!


Also of those $40,000 of non-resident cash how many of them stay in BC? Half the owners are not even residents up north anymore. Certainly $40,000 is not the average price (most in region 6 and even 7B are WAY below this), and you forgot to mention trophy fees and to factor in success rates. Can't say I'm surprised.

Not to mention things like deer are elastic in the sense that with more of a quantity approach you can put way more hunters afield and generate way more $$$, versus the trophy approach where you have to cut the harvest in half and the number of hunters by 2/3.

Per the usual a slanted view with absolutely no understanding of the numbers or public support. Can't say I'm surprised. Grade 6 would have been a good year to attend class - only once though, not 3 times.

You my friend have no understanding of my post to begin with, so lets not talk about grade 6. The numbers which you are always hung up on are totally there for the purpose of an example. So twist them around or do what ever you wish, but if you understood what the post was making reference to, you might not be so mouthy. Also remember that if you had the public support you think you have the ministry might stop ignoring alot of your work and posts of Mr Campbell selling off your wildlife might not be so frequent. :)

[BCrams]

regarding the post a couple of pages back as to "who holds the regional managers accountable." In my experience no one they are an island to themselves and have to be re connected to the mainland. the manager is region 5 would not admit to setting the new deer season in region 5 when I asked him about it yesterday. he merely said he and his staff advised victoria and victoria made the decision. that is pure bull shit and there in lies the problem with the moe. no one will take respponsibility for their acts and it is time they did.

And there lies the problem.

An internal revamping will be required to get things back in line.

[bridger]

Gatehouse; I beg to differ with you on these matters. The days of cutting off horns and leaving meat are gone. Our hunting attracts tourism dollars and is promoted as such. The fact is the resident hunters cannot ever agree and come together with a united front on issue's. The G/O's and the promoters of tourism in our back country can. Until this changes the government will support the injection of new money into the economy, before supporting the recirculation of existing funds. Granted they will continue to try and keep the resident hunter happy, while reaping as much money as possible. None of this is new, it just keeps going around and around in a big circle. I can remember a few years back when the Chamber of Commerce actually helped G/O's with funding to promote our hunting and back country in Europe.

To respond to your last sentence. In many cases the resident hunter has burned his own bridges in gathering of support by John Q public. A prime example of this is all the excellent deer land along the Peace River, between Hudson Hope and Fort St John. These farmers, many of which I know personnally, have absolutly no use for the resident hunter due to the past conduct of a few. They have no problem giving permission to the local G/O to hunt and I know other areas of the province that are the same.

you have some really good insight in this post willy and i agree except for the last part about the private land owners along the hope road not giving residents permission and giving permission to the guide outfitter. those land owners are very proprietory about their land and never gave permission 40 years ago. the guide outfitter pays them to hunt on their land and keep residents out. ditto farrell creek and the entire area south of dawson creek. we both know that. having said that your comments about resident hunters being un organized is right on. the other problem is that 30 years ago most moe guys were hunters and had some sympathy for residents. sad but true that is no longer the case.

[willy442]

Let me make it very simple for you. Resident hunters:

Spend the most time and dollars on conservation efforts Province wide
Generate far more jobs
Generate far more dollars
Own the wildlife as citizens of BC
And are far more supported by the public

The part you don't get is nobody, even most resident hunters do not support trophy hunting. That is a fact! Don't believe me do some research or put it to the test.

There are around 250 guide-outfitters and about 90,000 resident hunters. It's a simple story - resident hunters can't go hunting because people from America and Europe are here to shoot an animal and take the horns home.

I don't think anybody will be bitching at the bcwf. Trust me on that one!

I support guide-outfitting when there's a surplus but when a resident hunter has to wait 50 years on average to harvest an LEH bull moose in Region 8 something has gone wrong. Residents have been taking it since the early 80s and it's time to turn things around.

At one point residents harvested 92+% of the moose province wide. That's been cut to close to 80% over the past 25+ years. That's another 3-5000 resident hunters going moose hunting every year NO PROBLEM without changing the management regime. Changing the management regimes we could put 10,000 more residents afield without causing any kind of problem.

Resident hunters have been put on LEH across the Province for no good reason and while their tags and opportunity were cut outfitters were handed more and more and more quota. That happened across the Province and it isn't right.

I don't mind sharing but enough is enough!

Tell me is the government more interested in attracting new money into B.C. or recirculating what we already have in our coffers. When you answer this, maybe with all your education, you will see where the Political support comes in. Also maybe you will understand the reasoning they refer to as achieving your harvest.:smile:

[willy442]

you have some really good insight in this post willy and i agree except for the last part about the private land owners along the hope road not giving residents permission and giving permission to the guide outfitter. those land owners are very proprietory about their land and never gave permission 40 years ago. the guide outfitter pays them to hunt on their land and keep residents out. ditto farrell creek and the entire area south of dawson creek. we both know that. having said that your comments about resident hunters being un organized is right on. the other problem is that 30 years ago most moe guys were hunters and had some sympathy for residents. sad but true that is no longer the case.

Bridger; I had permission along that area for many years and still have on some.

[elkdom]

and I know for a fact!, GO's often pay access fees, yeh lots of $$$$ for " EXCLUSIVE access privileges" to hunt on private land!, thereby EXCLUDING RESIDENT HUNTERS, the GO's also express promises of a extra "trophy bonus $$$" to the land owner upon completion of the hunt! so when it comes to allowing resident hunter access, the land owner is at a loss of $$$ unless "JOE" resident coughs up some $$$, yet when hard winters and crop damage becomes an issue??, the MOE and local sporting clubs pick up the slack, pay out the cash, and donate time and resources!
When that extra effort is needed, both the GO"s and Non Resident hunters are pretty damm scarce! so is their money$$$$$, ???

[willy442]

Stone Sheep Steve; A man with a handle like that should be able to give us on the site a full accounting of what it costs you and Rams to go on back country photography trips, while hunting the elusive mature ram.:smile:

[willy442]

and I know for a fact!, GO's often pay access fees, yeh lots of $$$$ for " EXCLUSIVE access privileges" to hunt on private land!, thereby EXCLUDING RESIDENT HUNTERS, the GO's also express promises of a extra "trophy bonus $$$" to the land owner upon completion of the hunt! so when it comes to allowing resident hunter access, the land owner is at a loss of $$$ unless "JOE" resident coughs up some $$$, yet when hard winters and crop damage becomes an issue??, the MOE and local sporting clubs pick up the slack, pay out the cash, and donate time and resources!
When that extra effort is needed, both the GO"s and Non Resident hunters are pretty damm scarce! so is their money$$$$$, ???

It's called BUSINESS.

[bridger]

I have been around the horn on this issue for a long time at the provincial level. anyone that really understands the situation knows this is not about money. the goabc has used the new money coming into the province argument as a smoke screen for years. Hands down residents have an economic impact 15 or 20 times that of the non resident. As far as the economic contribution the outfitters themselves make don't think that is going to reduce the provincial deficit. A large number of the areas are owned by american or german interests. they pay low wages, buy a lot of their supplies in the states (some even drive around in pickups with american license plates) I could on and on but that woud only detract from the real issue. the real issue is that the outfitters are well organized well funded and do a lot of politicking at the provincial and regional level. they have sold their position to a lot of the regional managers and upper level management in victoria. Until we resident hunters get organized and put our money where our mouths are (like the guides have done) we will continue to get shafted. lets use this site and others to encourage residents to band together and get our hunting rights back. there is absolutely no excuse for any resident hunter not to join the bcwf and get in the trenches. If you aren't willing to do that you will have to be satisfied with what the politics of hunting lets you have.. the bcwf is the organized voice of resident hunters recognized by the provincial government and needs your support.

[Gateholio]

Gatehouse; I beg to differ with you on these matters. The days of cutting off horns and leaving meat are gone. Our hunting attracts tourism dollars and is promoted as such. The fact is the resident hunters cannot ever agree and come together with a united front on issue's. The G/O's and the promoters of tourism in our back country can. Until this changes the government will support the injection of new money into the economy, before supporting the recirculation of existing funds. Granted they will continue to try and keep the resident hunter happy, while reaping as much money as possible. None of this is new, it just keeps going around and around in a big circle. I can remember a few years back when the Chamber of Commerce actually helped G/O's with funding to promote our hunting and back country in Europe.

To respond to your last sentence. In many cases the resident hunter has burned his own bridges in gathering of support by John Q public. A prime example of this is all the excellent deer land along the Peace River, between Hudson Hope and Fort St John. These farmers, many of which I know personnally, have absolutly no use for the resident hunter due to the past conduct of a few. They have no problem giving permission to the local G/O to hunt and I know other areas of the province that are the same.

Leaving the meat isn't the point I'm trying to make. I'm talking about how everyone in BC owns the wildlife.

The average citizen of BC- which are mostly somewhat urbanized- doesn't like the idea of people jetting in and cutting off heads and going home, regardless of if the meat is eaten by the guides or given to some needy family in the area.

Given the choice, they'd prefer Joe Hunter go out and shoot a moose for his freezer. I can see public pressure being applied to outlaw foreign trophy hunting at one point, which possibly could cause problems for resident hunters, too. It's probably in the best interests of G/O's and residents to stop trying to squeeze the other one out, as is happening here...

I agree with you about the organization of resident hunters...No question more need to at the very least join the BCWF.

[willy442]

I have been around the horn on this issue for a long time at the provincial level. anyone that really understands the situation knows this is not about money. the goabc has used the new money coming into the province argument as a smoke screen for years. Hands down residents have an economic impact 15 or 20 times that of the non resident. As far as the economic contribution the outfitters themselves make don't think that is going to reduce the provincial deficit. A large number of the areas are owned by american or german interests. they pay low wages, buy a lot of their supplies in the states (some even drive around in pickups with american license plates) I could on and on but that woud only detract from the real issue. the real issue is that the outfitters are well organized well funded and do a lot of politicking at the provincial and regional level. they have sold their position to a lot of the regional managers and upper level management in victoria. Until we resident hunters get organized and put our money where our mouths are (like the guides have done) we will continue to get shafted. lets use this site and others to encourage residents to band together and get our hunting rights back. there is absolutely no excuse for any resident hunter not to join the bcwf and get in the trenches. If you aren't willing to do that you will have to be satisfied with what the politics of hunting lets you have.. the bcwf is the organized voice of resident hunters recognized by the provincial government and needs your support.

You may remember but back a few years ago a financial paper was presented at one of the conventions (not by guides) about the economics of injecting new tourism money into the economy. If I remember correctly it was every new dollar brought in was equal to about 7 existing dollars being recirculated.

As for the rest of your post I fully agree. It is time for the hunter to put up or shut up.

[elkdom]

I know it's called BUSINESS!, but at what cost?? at who's loss?? when losses occur??

is it "GOOD BUSINESS" ?? to CATER to rich clients at the expense of modest and grass roots consumers( resident hunters)???


20 some years associated with GO's in several different Regions in BC, I can tell you some pretty shitty circumstances, enough that I finally disassociated myself from that industry, my only regret is I didn't wise up 20 years ago!:idea:

not all are greedy and corrupt, justa lot of them! :?

[lunatic]

It's called BUSINESS.


It's called "Bull**it ! These landowners that only cater to the G/O and don't allow resident hunters on their land, are the same ones that whine when the elk or deer damage their property and / or winter feed supply. These same landowners then want compensation. If they don't allow residents to hunt on their land then they should get nothing but the middle finger! Every area i've ever hunted where there was an outfitter nearby they did nothing but harrass us and try to ruin our hunt. Of course they always did so from a distance.......too chicken s**t to show their faces!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Stone Sheep Steve; A man with a handle like that should be able to give us on the site a full accounting of what it costs you and Rams to go on back country photography trips, while hunting the elusive mature ram.:smile:

Now Willy, why would you invite my opinion on this subject?? Must really like me or something:?.

I've spent as little as $700 or as much as $1500 heading north taking picture of the pretty mtns:smile:. That's just the trip itself. No gear or food included.

While I love to head north in pursuit of mtn critters, this thread is centered around my backyard. I have put in for moose LEH around here for the last 18 yrs(minus 1 or two years) and have yet to pull a local draw.
In reality I don't call my season a "success" unless my freezer is full come december regardless of the outcome of my early season sheep hunt.

This thread is about the inherent right of the resident hunters over the non-resident hunters. It's about sticking to what was agreed to be fair.
The local moose permits in question don't involve G/O funds like sheep bring in. They involve meat and the opportunity to hunt for moose more often than every 50 freakin years.

Of course, I would never expect you to understand anything about the term "fair":?.

SSS

[willy442]

It's called "Bull**it ! These landowners that only cater to the G/O and don't allow resident hunters on their land, are the same ones that whine when the elk or deer damage their property and / or winter feed supply. These same landowners then want compensation. If they don't allow residents to hunt on their land then they should get nothing but the middle finger! Every area i've ever hunted where there was an outfitter nearby they did nothing but harrass us and try to ruin our hunt. Of course they always did so from a distance.......too chicken s**t to show their faces!

The KEY is LANDOWNER. He has no obligation or requirement to accommodate any hunter. If he is making money off what is rightfully his, great. I for one rent hunting land for the sole purpose of a quiet place for my son and friends to hunt. I have never shot an animal on these lands. Much of my time if I may add regretfully is patrolling and keeping tresspassers and the assh____ hunters off the place. Hunting private land without permission is one of the biggest causes for farmers not allowing hunting. To make a statement like giving these people the finger shows the integrety of yourself and many other residents. Maybe a little change in attitude could make your next trip more enjoyable.:smile:

[willy442]

Now Willy, why would you invite my opinion on this subject?? Must really like me or something:?.

I've spent as little as $700 or as much as $1500 heading north taking picture of the pretty mtns:smile:. That's just the trip itself. No gear or food included.

While I love to head north in pursuit of mtn critters, this thread is centered around my backyard. I have put in for moose LEH around here for the last 18 yrs(minus 1 or two years) and have yet to pull a local draw.
In reality I don't call my season a "success" unless my freezer is full come december regardless of the outcome of my early season sheep hunt.

This thread is about the inherent right of the resident hunters over the non-resident hunters. It's about sticking to what was agreed to be fair.
The local moose permits in question don't involve G/O funds like sheep bring in. They involve meat and the opportunity to hunt for moose more often than every 50 freakin years.

Of course, I would never expect you to understand anything about the term "fair":?.

SSS

Thanks; Don't let the liking part go to your head. Just wanted to show GG that my numbers weren't that far off. Now we can get back to thread.:?

[Dirty]

Bridger,

How does the BCWF go about recruiting more members and donors? People need to realize the urgency of the resources we will lose or have lost because there is not a unified voice for hunters.

Has there been any thought about setting up BCWF memberships in sporting good shops, so when they are licensing they can offer a membership a the same time. Maybe get posters in the hands of shop owners to put on their counters while there is licensing push (now through fall). Signs that say something about being sold out and losing our hunting rights, with examples, and saying that becoming a member can help to stop this stuff. Also, maybe getting all CORE trainers to include a fee to become a BCWF member in their examining fees, or something along these lines to promote every new hunter to become a member.

[Blainer]

The KEY is LANDOWNER. He has no obligation or requirement to accommodate any hunter. If he is making money off what is rightfully his, great. I for one rent hunting land for the sole purpose of a quiet place for my son and friends to hunt. I have never shot an animal on these lands. Much of my time if I may add regretfully is patrolling and keeping tresspassers and the assh____ hunters off the place. Hunting private land without permission is one of the biggest causes for farmers not allowing hunting. To make a statement like giving these people the finger shows the integrety of yourself and many other residents. Maybe a little change in attitude could make your next trip more enjoyable.:smile:Would this not potentially open the door to the highest bidder?
If it is all about the land owner making money,then conceivably he should entertain all offers,including offers from the anti's,untill we are all priced out of the market.

[BCrams]

Thanks; Don't let the liking part go to your head. Just wanted to show GG that my numbers weren't that far off. Now we can get back to thread.:?

There's no disputing the cost of a non-resident sheep hunt. Thats the 'smoke screen' spun in Victoria.

It isn't until you look at the bottom line contribution at the end of the season where differences are made. (I would think?)

[SHAKER]

I've read threw this thread and started to post yesterday....... Good thing I didn't I was pretty pissed off. After rationally thinking this over it should be clear to see, anyone who supports what the G\O's are doing are either a guide themselve or are on sort of good friend with one.

Hey I'd voice my opinion too if it was take'n money out of my back pocket but it don't. Pure and simple your not going to change these peoples minds on the subject.

As far as $$$ spent? everyone gives examples of how much their boats, trucks, poneys cost, well got one more senerio for ya.

Resident Cougar hunter:
Snow mobile\s
Truck
Hounds
Tracking equiptment
Dog boxes
ATV\s
Leashes, collars
Gas, diesle, and oil
Dog food
vet bills
personal food
Cloths
Boots
specialty firearm
ammo (not like I need any this year)
Equiptment repairs

Cost a good chunk of change for the chance to go hunting every winter, I'd like to add that # up but I'll tell you clearly if I wanted to go and kill a Cougar, just hire a guide with hounds, in the long run it's pennies on the dollar. But I do it because I love the sport and it really hurts to watch this hunt get raped by the G\O's. Pure and simple as resident hunters: "we cannot compete and should not have to!"

[lunatic]

The KEY is LANDOWNER. He has no obligation or requirement to accommodate any hunter. If he is making money off what is rightfully his, great. I for one rent hunting land for the sole purpose of a quiet place for my son and friends to hunt. I have never shot an animal on these lands. Much of my time if I may add regretfully is patrolling and keeping tresspassers and the assh____ hunters off the place. Hunting private land without permission is one of the biggest causes for farmers not allowing hunting. To make a statement like giving these people the finger shows the integrety of yourself and many other residents. Maybe a little change in attitude could make your next trip more enjoyable.:smile:

Well Willy, my "trips" are always enjoyable. My "trips" require me to drive about 10 minutes from my house:smile:. You miss my point. What I am saying is, that if these landowners only allow people who pay them money to hunt on their land, then quite whining when their land gets overrun by elk & deer. I know what you mean about trespassing on private land as i run into this every fall myself. My integrity is just fine however: I will continue to salute ( with the middle finger) these people that whine about damage to their land, but then only allow people on it if they pay $$$$.

[35 Whelen]

Time for a change in Gov't. Gordon Campbell is selling off our natural resources to the highest bidder. Just have a look at how he is selling off all our rivers to the private U.S sector so they can generate power

May 12th....time to kick Gordon's ass out of the political arena and bring someone in that doesn't look at the province as a cash cow.

[bridger]

Bridger,

How does the BCWF go about recruiting more members and donors? People need to realize the urgency of the resources we will lose or have lost because there is not a unified voice for hunters.

Has there been any thought about setting up BCWF memberships in sporting good shops, so when they are licensing they can offer a membership a the same time. Maybe get posters in the hands of shop owners to put on their counters while there is licensing push (now through fall). Signs that say something about being sold out and losing our hunting rights, with examples, and saying that becoming a member can help to stop this stuff. Also, maybe getting all CORE trainers to include a fee to become a BCWF member in their examining fees, or something along these lines to promote every new hunter to become a member.\\

historically the bulk of the membership has come from local rod & gun clubs around the province. if you buy membership in you local club you will be a bcwf member automatically provided the club itself belongs to the fed. the other method and the one i believe we should vigorously pursue it to sell direct memberships. the fed does sell direct memberships and needs to promote direct membership more aggressivley. go to the bcwf website for more info. you have some good ideas maybe you should talk to the executive director . thanks bridger

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Thanks; Don't let the liking part go to your head. Just wanted to show GG that my numbers weren't that far off. Now we can get back to thread.:?

Drawing conclusions from one person??? Now that's what they call a small demographic:?. I've got a family and a modest income. I would spend more if I had more.

What about the rest of my season????? I did make it out more than once you know.

SSS

[bridger]

You may remember but back a few years ago a financial paper was presented at one of the conventions (not by guides) about the economics of injecting new tourism money into the economy. If I remember correctly it was every new dollar brought in was equal to about 7 existing dollars being recirculated.

As for the rest of your post I fully agree. It is time for the hunter to put up or shut up.\

doesn't matter if it is 7 times more or 10 times more it doesn't exceed the residents total and never will. at the present time Imho we can do with out it even if it were 100 times. money cannot replace the opportunities resident hunters are losing to the international hunting companies now dominating the goabc. i am not going to discuss the money issue again as it is a mute point. the point is resident hunters are getting the shaft and i don't give a rats ass if some guy from texas spends $100,000 in bc.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The KEY is LANDOWNER. He has no obligation or requirement to accommodate any hunter. If he is making money off what is rightfully his, great. I for one rent hunting land for the sole purpose of a quiet place for my son and friends to hunt.


So along comes a resident BILLIONARIE.......goes up to the landowner that you are renting your "hunting opportunity" from and says "Here's a million dollars and says...Go tell Willy he can find another place to sit in his truck with the heater running and wait for deer" :-P.....and since the guy is soooooooooooooooo rich he ties up every other ranch in the entire region.

My point is that wealth is relative and the system should not give the wealthy access to hunting opportunities that the non-wealthy don't have.

Simple enough for you???:?

SSS

[Bowtime]

My point is that wealth is relative and the system should not give the wealthy access to hunting opportunities that the non-wealthy don't have.

SSS


Has it ever been proposed to put Non-resident hunters on LEH? Then they can also deal with the frustration that the majority of resident hunters go through every year.
See if those Guide Outfitters have any luck reaching there AAH. Maybe some more tags will drift our way?

[bridger]

Has it ever been proposed to put Non-resident hunters on LEH? Then they can also deal with the frustration that the majority of resident hunters go through every year.
See if those Guide Outfitters have any luck reaching there AAH. Maybe some more tags will drift our way?


we had the chance years ago but didn't pursue when we should have. non res leh would solve a lot of problems we have.

[Jelvis]

Is a rancher and/or family allowed to shoot deer or elk etc on his own ranch land?
Is a person who owns apple orchards on his property allowed to harvest?
JElvis

[Gateholio]

With proper tags in proper season, yes.





Is a rancher and/or family allowed to shoot deer or elk etc on his own ranch land?
Is a person who owns apple orchards on his property allowed to harvest?
JElvis

[Dirty]

Has the BCWF ever thought about buying out Guide Territories?

[elkdom]

we had the chance years ago but didn't pursue when we should have. non res leh would solve a lot of problems we have.

X 2! BINGO ! RIGHT FRIGGEN ON !!, an area with any "Resident" LEH requirements should also be on LEH for similar species as in regards to NON RESIDENT hunts!

many US States, limited entry /lottery hunts are available,non residents same as residents , your lucky or unlucky, same odds! fair enough!

[GoatGuy]

X 2! BINGO ! RIGHT FRIGGEN ON !!, an area with any "Resident" LEH requirements should also be on LEH for similar species as in regards to NON RESIDENT hunts!

many US States, limited entry /lottery hunts are available,non residents same as residents , your lucky or unlucky, same odds! fair enough!

Take it one step further. I've heard this one a couple of times, thought it was pretty out there but now my mind is changing a bit.

If there is such a conservation concern that residents must be limited to LEH there should be no non-resident harvest.

?????

[elkdom]

Take it one step further. I've heard this one a couple of times, thought it was pretty out there but now my mind is changing a bit.

If there is such a conservation concern that residents must be limited to LEH there should be no non-resident harvest.

?????

That works for me also!, in fact it should have been that way from the start!:idea:

all big game non-resident hunts on a lottery quota! :idea:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Take it one step further. I've heard this one a couple of times, thought it was pretty out there but now my mind is changing a bit.

If there is such a conservation concern that residents must be limited to LEH there should be no non-resident harvest.

?????

We should be following the hierarchy, without a doubt......

1)conservation....and if those needs are met
2) FN harvest.....and if their needs are met
3)Resident harvest......and if our needs are met (ie no LEH)
4) non-resident harvest

That's the way it's written and that's the way it should be.
If we NEED to be put on LEH then there should be NO G/O quota. Plain and simple.

SSS

[Deadshot]

We seem to be getting around to some kind of an opinion on how we'd like it. So now what? Push proposals at the BCWF & let them have at it?
I've got a few hunting buddies that need to sign on with the BCWF. There's no shortage of reasons why, they now need that extra push to do it.
If the giant wakes up, I don't think the G/O's are gonna like it.

[GoatGuy]

It's called BUSINESS.

Yep and that's how you see wildlife.

It's all about the $$$$$.

[goatdancer]

It's all about the almighty dollar, perception or reality is the key. If some non-res is willing to pay $30G for a sheep hunt, does this make his contribution to our provincial economy bigger than the bunch of locals who go out year after year for the same elusive trophy? I seriously doubt it. Residents spend money that supports the local economy every sigle day, not just for hunting but for every day life. The widlife belongs to the Crown. We, the residents, are the Crown.
If the residents need to have an LEH draw then so should the non-residents. The GOs should not get a free pass if the rest of us require a draw.
Like all the wise advice here has stated, join your local Fish and Game club or the BCWF directly. We need a strong voice to represent us to the idiots in Victoria.

[mark]

We seem to be getting around to some kind of an opinion on how we'd like it. So now what? Push proposals at the BCWF & let them have at it?
I've got a few hunting buddies that need to sign on with the BCWF. There's no shortage of reasons why, they now need that extra push to do it.
If the giant wakes up, I don't think the G/O's are gonna like it.


Like all the wise advice here has stated, join your local Fish and Game club or the BCWF directly. We need a strong voice to represent us to the idiots in Victoria.[/quote]


Ive pestered 3 of my buddies to join the BCWF in the last couple days, i challenge every member of this site to do the same!
if your not already a member, shame on you!

[6616]

Take it one step further. I've heard this one a couple of times, thought it was pretty out there but now my mind is changing a bit. If there is such a conservation concern that residents must be limited to LEH there should be no non-resident harvest.

I believe this is the way it is in Saskatchewan.

I have applied for Montana antelope several times. They use the same draw as for resident, no additional process, cost, or red tape. The limit for non-resident tags is 10% in any one hunting unit for a particular species. In unit 700 where I apply there are 13,000 antelope tags available, during the draw when 1300 non-resident entries have been drawn, all further non-resident entries are scrapped. It's very simple and inexpensive. The first 1300 non-residents drawn get a tag, the rest try again next year.

Once you get a draw you are free to book with the outfitter in that area or just go on your own. The state claims they make more revenue off unguided non-residents then they do off the fully guided component.

If you want a Montana bighorn sheep draw the same process is followed but you must use a guide in that case and it will cost a lot, but "you" apply for the tag and cannot just buy one from an outfitter.

Myself, I sure could live with that situation if it were adopted in BC.

[BCrams]

Some of the things we should be looking at:

Need to look after the resident hunters first.

Time for harmonized seasons across the board to distribute hunting pressure as well as increase hunter opportunity (big time opportunity)

Moose: reduce GO quotas and increase LEH permits as well as an open moose season during a designated time slot. Province wide between all regions with LEH.
Elk: Get the province in line with a harmonized any bull or > 3 pt bull elk season. Get rid of the 6 point trophy bull elk seasons or at the very least a 10 day (encompassing 2 full weekends) any bull or 3 point bull elk season.
Mule Deer: Harmonize all regions for Mule Deer hunting. And no ...... Stew and Diel are not allowed to manage it.
Whitetailed Deer: Get rid of the 4 pt whitetailed deer buck regulation (damn I can never get my head wrapped around that one). Even better - whitetails are so prolific, have a province wide 1 antlerless & 1 buck season on them.
LEH hunts - anywhere there's a 'conservation' concern where resident hunters are on the draw ....... No GO gets permits for that species......UNLESS residents fully have the opportunity to utilize their quota, and frankly LEH right now is not letting them in most areas.

Underutilized LEH hunts ...... (i.e., many goat hunt areas) - scrap LEH.

Anywhere allocations are all out of whack ...... i.e., Region 6 Skeena sheep and moose (really screwed up) ....... start making it happen. Reduce GO quotas and / or bump up resident opportunites / tags.

Region 6 Sheep - Reduce GO quotas, examine feasibility of an extended resident season and / or reduced GO season. Get that Spatsizi / Edziza sheep allocation squared away or get rid of the sheep LEH.

The list goes on ....... get the people hunting ..... then the fun part of actually managing habitat etc can be done.

In the end, we get a lot more people out hunting. There will 'always' be big animals / trophy game for those 5% of residents who wish to pursue them.

[bridger]

very well said you have a lot of insight to the problem

[willy442]

Some of the things we should be looking at:

Need to look after the resident hunters first.

Time for harmonized seasons across the board to distribute hunting pressure as well as increase hunter opportunity (big time opportunity)

Moose: reduce GO quotas and increase LEH permits as well as an open moose season during a designated time slot. Province wide between all regions with LEH.
Elk: Get the province in line with a harmonized any bull or > 3 pt bull elk season. Get rid of the 6 point trophy bull elk seasons or at the very least a 10 day (encompassing 2 full weekends) any bull or 3 point bull elk season.
Mule Deer: Harmonize all regions for Mule Deer hunting. And no ...... Stew and Diel are not allowed to manage it.
Whitetailed Deer: Get rid of the 4 pt whitetailed deer buck regulation (damn I can never get my head wrapped around that one). Even better - whitetails are so prolific, have a province wide 1 antlerless & 1 buck season on them.
LEH hunts - anywhere there's a 'conservation' concern where resident hunters are on the draw ....... No GO gets permits for that species......UNLESS residents fully have the opportunity to utilize their quota, and frankly LEH right now is not letting them in most areas.

Underutilized LEH hunts ...... (i.e., many goat hunt areas) - scrap LEH.

Anywhere allocations are all out of whack ...... i.e., Region 6 Skeena sheep and moose (really screwed up) ....... start making it happen. Reduce GO quotas and / or bump up resident opportunites / tags.

Region 6 Sheep - Reduce GO quotas, examine feasibility of an extended resident season and / or reduced GO season. Get that Spatsizi / Edziza sheep allocation squared away or get rid of the sheep LEH.

The list goes on ....... get the people hunting ..... then the fun part of actually managing habitat etc can be done.

In the end, we get a lot more people out hunting. There will 'always' be big animals / trophy game for those 5% of residents who wish to pursue them.

Some very good idea's. The problem still lies with the views that the resident hunter alone can maintain the hunting here by themselves. This has been the way forever and it don't work. The hunters need to join forces and fight for a common solution to the problems. This includes residents, guides, trappers, first nations and any other user of the resource including wildlife viewers. Divided as everyone has been and still are, the resident hunter is going to continue to be out done in the political arena. The bottom line is money talks and bullshit walks.

In the past 30 years that I know of, through some pretty trying times, the resident hunter has failed to put forth a uniformed front. I may be wrong but I believe in alot of cases this has kept some of the issues being dealt with by the BCWF, under the table. So good luck this time around.

[SHAKER]

Some of the things we should be looking at:

Need to look after the resident hunters first.

Time for harmonized seasons across the board to distribute hunting pressure as well as increase hunter opportunity (big time opportunity)

Moose: reduce GO quotas and increase LEH permits as well as an open moose season during a designated time slot. Province wide between all regions with LEH.
Elk: Get the province in line with a harmonized any bull or > 3 pt bull elk season. Get rid of the 6 point trophy bull elk seasons or at the very least a 10 day (encompassing 2 full weekends) any bull or 3 point bull elk season.
Mule Deer: Harmonize all regions for Mule Deer hunting. And no ...... Stew and Diel are not allowed to manage it.
Whitetailed Deer: Get rid of the 4 pt whitetailed deer buck regulation (damn I can never get my head wrapped around that one). Even better - whitetails are so prolific, have a province wide 1 antlerless & 1 buck season on them.
LEH hunts - anywhere there's a 'conservation' concern where resident hunters are on the draw ....... No GO gets permits for that species......UNLESS residents fully have the opportunity to utilize their quota, and frankly LEH right now is not letting them in most areas.

Underutilized LEH hunts ...... (i.e., many goat hunt areas) - scrap LEH.

Anywhere allocations are all out of whack ...... i.e., Region 6 Skeena sheep and moose (really screwed up) ....... start making it happen. Reduce GO quotas and / or bump up resident opportunites / tags.

Region 6 Sheep - Reduce GO quotas, examine feasibility of an extended resident season and / or reduced GO season. Get that Spatsizi / Edziza sheep allocation squared away or get rid of the sheep LEH.

The list goes on ....... get the people hunting ..... then the fun part of actually managing habitat etc can be done.

In the end, we get a lot more people out hunting. There will 'always' be big animals / trophy game for those 5% of residents who wish to pursue them.



Couldn't have said it better myself!

[willy442]

Yep and that's how you see wildlife.

It's all about the $$$$$.

Matter of fact you are along ways away from what my views are. If you were able to comprehend the posts I have made, you would understand my first concern is the animal. I fail to agree with alot of your crap, because it is far less substantiated then most of my observations and posts. Due to the lack of a proffessor present to help you interpit what is wrote, you have a huge problem of inserting your bias bullshit into whatever is posted by myself and and few others. You're not the first young know it all that I have come across on these matters so fill your boots.

Now back to your concerns of the value of our wildlife. Wildlife is a renewable resource it along with, logging, mining, oil and gas and fisheries all fall under the same umbrella, in the views of most politicians. This alone creates the situation of placing a value on it and once that is looked at, the good old dollar figure comes out and the number crunching game begins. When this happens the 80,000 unorganized resident hunters are really not as powerful of a force as they sometimes believe. You have the tour operators, air charter companies, guide outfitters and the various promotors of tourism all jointly working towards bringing new people and money to the province. These groups are strong, organized and have money along with alot of political backing. They do not continually fight amongst themselves and when they go before government they are united in thier directives, leaving the BCWF playing catch up every time. This is point I was making and hopefully you can now comprehend it.:-(

[willy442]

So along comes a resident BILLIONARIE.......goes up to the landowner that you are renting your "hunting opportunity" from and says "Here's a million dollars and says...Go tell Willy he can find another place to sit in his truck with the heater running and wait for deer" :-P.....and since the guy is soooooooooooooooo rich he ties up every other ranch in the entire region.

My point is that wealth is relative and the system should not give the wealthy access to hunting opportunities that the non-wealthy don't have.

Simple enough for you???:?

SSS

Supply and demand is what most businesses are based on. Why should a farmer renting out his land be any different?

I for one have no issue with someone charging to hunt on private land. If the few resident asses that seem to think they have an inherant right to hunt anywhere they want, were to start abidding by laws, we would see more private land open up. Many of the farmers I know refuse to let the out of area hunters have access, due to tresspassing. When you rent the land, the farmer also usually expects you to patrol it and make sure his interests are protected. So get used to the idea it's going to become more common here in the Peace.

Now for your comments on my hunting. I spent many years climbing mountains, boots that get wet in August and dry in October are not new to me. Now that I'm a little older and somewhat smarter a little comfort while hunting is nice. So my heated hunting blind for my leased land is a 2009 Ford F350 King Ranch, with quad leather buckets, heat controls for all 4 zones and comes complete with a state of the art stereo system. White Tails love country tunes, my 202 B&C point nontypical is proof of that. Just in case the deer or elk should fall over in the bush, I have a 2009 Polaris 850XP in the back, that can be quickly unloaded to drag whatever out, so I don't have scratch my hunting blind. Then once the light gets low and its time to relax, we can go to my 2008, 35 ft Citation fifth wheel with three slides to relax. Now you can post about the whole camp instead of just my blind.:lol:

[Jelvis]

What about hunters who can't afford all the "TOYS"?
Hunters that use their legs to walk up into a ridge off the roads around Clearwater? Don't have the extra cash for guided hunts and fancy QUADS!
They have a young family to spend money for groceries, mortgages and all the cost of living. So what about their chance at getting some meat also?
Or a trophy buck? Is it fair for the average poorer hunter with family?
The way it is now?
Jello -- what about the low income family man or woman-friend-a-mine?

[bridger]

Once again i will repeat the issue is not about money. who cares how much money a non resident pays to hunt moose in bc. What ever the amount is it pales into insignicance when compared to the contributions made by resident hunters. That aside in every province and state in north america the hunting opportunites for resident hunters takes priority over the non resident. In BC we have agreed to hunting opportunties for non residents that are un paralled in north america.. Where else are non residents guaranteed 20% of the sheep harvest NO WHERE! The solution to this contreversy is very simple. MESSAGE TO THE GOBAC Honor your commitment to the allocation policy you agreed to in 2007 and the contreversy will go away. MESSAGE TO THE MOE impfement the allocation policy and the contrervsay will go away and we can all move onto other things.

[PGK]

Some of the things we should be looking at:

Need to look after the resident hunters first.
Time for harmonized seasons across the board to distribute hunting pressure as well as increase hunter opportunity (big time opportunity)

Moose: reduce GO quotas and increase LEH permits as well as an open moose season during a designated time slot. Province wide between all regions with LEH.
Elk: Get the province in line with a harmonized any bull or > 3 pt bull elk season. Get rid of the 6 point trophy bull elk seasons or at the very least a 10 day (encompassing 2 full weekends) any bull or 3 point bull elk season.
Mule Deer: Harmonize all regions for Mule Deer hunting. And no ...... Stew and Diel are not allowed to manage it.
Whitetailed Deer: Get rid of the 4 pt whitetailed deer buck regulation (damn I can never get my head wrapped around that one). Even better - whitetails are so prolific, have a province wide 1 antlerless & 1 buck season on them. LEH hunts - anywhere there's a 'conservation' concern where resident hunters are on the draw ....... No GO gets permits for that species......UNLESS residents fully have the opportunity to utilize their quota, and frankly LEH right now is not letting them in most areas.

Underutilized LEH hunts ...... (i.e., many goat hunt areas) - scrap LEH.

Anywhere allocations are all out of whack ...... i.e., Region 6 Skeena sheep and moose (really screwed up) ....... start making it happen. Reduce GO quotas and / or bump up resident opportunites / tags.

Region 6 Sheep - Reduce GO quotas, examine feasibility of an extended resident season and / or reduced GO season. Get that Spatsizi / Edziza sheep allocation squared away or get rid of the sheep LEH.

The list goes on ....... get the people hunting ..... then the fun part of actually managing habitat etc can be done.

In the end, we get a lot more people out hunting. There will 'always' be big animals / trophy game for those 5% of residents who wish to pursue them.

Can we feasibly manage that habitat considering the state of the economy and our current 'closest to the mill' timber harvest strategies? I don't think we can. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a google earth map of the interior and conclude we've raped the habitat pretty good.

Not disagreeing, just taking my kick at the can.

[GoatGuy]

Some very good idea's. The problem still lies with the views that the resident hunter alone can maintain the hunting here by themselves. This has been the way forever and it don't work. The hunters need to join forces and fight for a common solution to the problems.

Hey, as long as residents supported LEH for everything other than black bears and harvesting a couple percent of the total everything will be great! Don't forget to scrap those immature bull moose seasons too.


Hunters need to be able to go out hunting in BC first. If we don't have hunting seasons we don't have hunters - plain and simple. That means hunting seasons that let resident hunters go out hunting and harvest animals not place let on a lottery to be able to put in to go hunting.

The last 25 years in BC have been nothing short of an absolute travesty.

[willy442]

Hey, as long as residents supported LEH for everything other than black bears and harvesting a couple percent of the total everything will be great! Don't forget to scrap those immature bull moose seasons too.


Hunters need to be able to go out hunting in BC first. If we don't have hunting seasons we don't have hunters - plain and simple. That means hunting seasons that let resident hunters go out hunting and harvest animals not place let on a lottery to be able to put in to go hunting.

The last 25 years in BC have been nothing short of an absolute travesty.

I don't disagree with you on these issue's. The problem as I see it is both parties are pissed at each other and until it is resolved by the two groups, government isn't going to do much as you have seen. The message from government forever has been that the issue's should be resolved by the two parties. This has not worked in the past and the travesty will continue if the thinking by all fails to change, this is not a new issue.

Regardless of what Bridger says, to the political arena it is about money. To the resident hunter it is about opportunity. Without taking sides the resident already has unparalleled opportunity and also enjoys the largest diversity of game animals in North America in the eye's of the politicians.

People have to get off the band wagon of stopping nonresident hunting. It's not going to happen.

[Sitkaspruce]

Can we feasibly manage that habitat considering the state of the economy and our current 'closest to the mill' timber harvest strategies? I don't think we can. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at a google earth map of the interior and conclude we've raped the habitat pretty good.

Not disagreeing, just taking my kick at the can.

Nothing but the beetle has caused that, and we either log it and get something for it, or we pile it up and burn it, so either way, the "rape" as you see it will be happening. And for the most part, it is good habitat already. Logging helps wildlife (Ungulate) populations. Not as much as a good old burn, but for the animals we are talking about, it helps. The problem lies in the access to these sites. Thats where the problem will always be. Large Clearcuts can mimick large burns, if done properly, but the roads that are put in to access the wood need to be managed, or it just becomes a long range shooting game.

Managing habitat is pretty easy. Mother nature can do that on her own with very little help by man. And as Rams says, we can clean up some of the crap that MOE has piled on us, we can then concentrate and spend money on proper wildlife management.

Good post Rams

Cheers

SS

[horshur]

People have to get off the band wagon of stopping nonresident hunting. It's not going to happen.


then GOABC should just honor the agreement.........not conspire to take more.
Spite may blow it for the whole lot of us. They have not done them selves a favour.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

[quote=willy442;443112]The problem as I see it is both parties are pissed at each other and until it is resolved by the two groups, government isn't going to do much as you have seen.

It's hard to work together while the residents are kept busy pulling knives out of our backs.:roll:

All the residents have done is try to get back the animals that have been "yanked" away over the last 30 yrs. We just want back what was agreed upon.

SSS

[Devilbear]

It actually would be quite easy to permanently end all "non-resident alien" hunting here in BC and this should be done immediately.

A campaign such as the "war in the woods" that resulted in preservation of a percentage of BC's wilderness for future generations, after a small number of real conservationists spent DECADES of begging both Socred and NDP adminstrations for mere scraps, would motivate government to END the disgraceful situation we now endure.

Get the mass media involved, get some "high profile" individuals to strongly endorse ONLY BC citizen hunting/angling here, for primarily food purposes and it WILL happen.

Speak up, stand out, fight back and smash the GOABC with constant legal challenges to their slimey behaviour. Blockade areas where they operate, confront rich Yankee "hunters" at airports, non-violently, and just tell them, KEEP OUT OF BC!!!!!

Yeah, it CAN be done, let's DO IT!!!!

[Deadshot]

Speak up, stand out, fight back and smash the GOABC with constant legal challenges to their slimey behaviour. Blockade areas where they operate, confront rich Yankee "hunters" at airports, non-violently, and just tell them, KEEP OUT OF BC!!!!!

Yeah, it CAN be done, let's DO IT!!!!

Wasn't that Kutenay guy gonna do that this year?:D

[pikey]

Hunting needs to be sold to the majority of BC'ers as part of our Canadian Hunting Heritage not sport.

I don't think calling hunting a sport does us any good at all, it's part of our traditions, our ancestry, our right to feed ourselves from our own land, part of what made Canada a Country.

That is something that no-hunters may support, but if it's a sport then they will say "too bad take up golf"

It is apparent to me the majority of non-hunters don't like foreign trophy hunting much at all, they want it gone.

[Fisher-Dude]

Wasn't that Kutenay guy gonna do that this year?:D

Can we un-ban Kutenay for just this thread....pleeeeeease??? :lol::lol::lol:

As much as he rubbed some sensitive types the wrong way, I had a lot of respect for his straight forward approach. You always knew exactly what he thought about a subject. :wink: I'd like to have a few pops around the campfire with him one day.

[bridger]

the simple question that needs to be answered is why won't the goabc honor its commitment to the allocation policy and why won't the moe deliver. In my view the goabc feels that if implemented the policy would put resident hunters first where they should be. In a nutshell the goabc is trying to promote trophy hunting over meat hunting andi s doing a good job of selling to the moe. We don't need to pick a fight with the goabc we just need to tell politicians that we want the allocation policy implemented. The election is around the corner and we should all write our mla's regardless of which party and demand that it is.

[dana]

Don't you guys see a problem with the stand you are taking against so called 'trophy hunting'? You guys start hammering away at the GOABC in the public media and you will loose more than you bargined for. Tell me, how many people hunt sheep for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. Tell me, how many people hunt grizz for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. What about cougars? Running hounds have been banned in other jurisdictions for far less of a thought than trophy hunting. Do you want to get in bed with the devil and play those games? You may not agree with everything the GOABC does, but they are fellow hunters. Taking them on using the 'trophy hunting' trump card, just means you are going to loose way more than what this fight was over to begin with.

[mcrae]

Don't you guys see a problem with the stand you are taking against so called 'trophy hunting'? You guys start hammering away at the GOABC in the public media and you will loose more than you bargined for. Tell me, how many people hunt sheep for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. Tell me, how many people hunt grizz for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. What about cougars? Running hounds have been banned in other jurisdictions for far less of a thought than trophy hunting. Do you want to get in bed with the devil and play those games? You may not agree with everything the GOABC does, but they are fellow hunters. Taking them on using the 'trophy hunting' trump card, just means you are going to loose way more than what this fight was over to begin with.

Totally agree you will be doing half the antis jobs for them. Divide them up and pick them off...

[GoatGuy]

Local hunters just want to fill freezer each fall

Kelowna Capital News
Published: April 11, 2009 12:00 PM
To the editor:
It was very interesting to read the recent Judie Steeves article on resident moose hunting in the Okanagan Region.
I’m very sure Mr. Springer’s frustrations are shared by many across the province since the situation he describes is wide spread across B.C. and is most assuredly not limited to the Okanagan.
For example, in the East Kootenay we have witnessed the non-resident moose quota assigned to guide-outfitters rise from 15 to over 100 since moose went on Limited Entry Hunting (LEH) in 1991.
At the same time a B.C. resident must put in for a moose draw at 20:1 odds, basically the same as saying he can only go moose hunting once every 20 years.
In the Skeena region, moose quota has increased five fold for non-residents while resident moose hunters are on a limited draw system.
Thinhorn sheep harvest in the north is dominated by non-resident trophy harvest.
Mountain goat harvests across the province are dominated by non-resident trophy harvests.
Nearly all moose and goat hunting in the province is now LEH.
Non-resident hunters are allocated about 25 to 30 per cent of the overall wildlife harvest in B.C., while at the same time non-resident harvest is limited to 10 per cent in nearly all other western states and provinces.
Is the emphasis on big game management in B.C. leaning too far towards providing trophies for wealthy foreigners, thus making it increasingly difficult for B.C. resident hunters to fill their deep freezes?
Perhaps this question can be answered by observing that in the East Kootenay bull elk are on a six point antler restriction, even though the East Kootenay is practically over-run with elk.
Mule deer management across the province is dominated by four point antler restrictions, and even white tailed deer in the Peace River are managed with a four point horn restriction.
The Caribou region is planning to restrict mule deer harvest even though agriculture depredation by mule deer is at an all time high.
Why?
Because there is a concept there are too few mature (trophy) bucks.
Add that to the fact that in many regions deer are the only species left that resident meat hunters can pursue without putting in for a high odds draw.
Maybe it’s time for a change in attitude in game management in B.C.
There are 80,000 resident hunters whose primary interest is only to put some high quality meat in the freezer each fall.
In spite of increasing and stable game populations filling the freezer appears to be more difficult every year as management emphasis appears to be shifting more and more towards attracting non-resident trophy hunters.
A. Pezderic,
Golden
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[GoatGuy]

Gov’t selling off wildlife same as water, hydro, oil and timber

Kelowna Capital News
Published: April 11, 2009 12:00 PM
To the editor:
I am writing in response to the recent article regarding the hunting allocations by Judie Steeves.
The way the provincial government is managing the allocations between resident and non-resident hunters is very disturbing.
As stated in the article, the government is taking on an attitude that hunting should be a commercially-viable business.
As a B.C. resident, and also a resident hunter, I find this extremely frustrating!
My family and I spend far too much time, money and energy in the B.C. outdoors on wildlife conservation to have some foreign, non-resident come over to B.C. and hand over cash to a guide outfitter in order to harvest trophy animals in which the meat will not even be taken home and used.
The second troubling fact is the government’s mandate on wildlife priority states that conservation is first; First Nations second, B.C. residents third and lastly, non-residents fourth.
Instead of hunting being managed by science and sound conservation practices such as sustainable harvest (which allows harvest to continue with no decline in the population long term).
Decisions have been made based on politics and our B.C. wildlife is essentially being sold to off-shore hunters.
With LEH permits not being fairly distributed to B.C. residents, the government has been managing wildlife to promote more trophy quality animals rather than issuing more LEH permits to B.C. residents for increased opportunity and more chances to harvest an animal.
What this is boiling down to is that the average Joe resident meat hunter like myself is finding it more and more difficult to harvest game in order to fill his freezer for his family, something which is becoming increasingly more important during these difficult financial times.
In closing, I would just like to express my disappointment in the provincial government for allowing this kind of management to take place on what I see as such a vitally important resource that thousands of B.C. resident hunters have used and enjoyed for decades.
It is not only a personal insult to my family’s heritage as third generation B.C. residents, but it is sad to see that the government would look upon a resource such as wildlife as a commodity and choose to sell it off like they have water, hydro, oil and timber.
Jared Wilkison,
Kelowna
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[GoatGuy]

Tag hunt system benefits trophy hunters

Kelowna Capital News
Published: April 11, 2009 12:00 PM
To the editor:
I was enraged after reading Judie Steeve article about how B.C. resident hunters are being cut out of their opportunity to harvest meat to feed their families.
(Hunting Allocations Favour Tourists Over Local Hunters, April 8 Capital News.)
Recently, the B.C. government started a campaign to recruit more resident hunters, but now appear to be trying to squeeze the residents out by not allowing enough resident tags to be issued to meet harvest numbers.
The allocation policy has been unfairly implemented in a way to guarantee that residents would have less chance to harvest their share of moose, and thereby increase the number of animals allocated to guides who cater to wealthy American and European hunters.
At 20:1 odds of even drawing a moose tag, it’s no wonder that residents can’t meet their harvest goals.
I’ve gone years without drawing a moose tag, yet a wealthy foreigner can buy a tag every year and shoot a trophy for their wall while my freezer remains empty.
With unnecessary antler restrictions on many ungulates, seasons designed to promote “trophy style” and not “meat” hunting and the limited number of resident Limited Entry Hunting (LEH) tags made available, I wonder who the government and wildlife managers are working for.
It seems they are working for the guide-outfitters who profit from the sale of hunts to wealthy foreigners who come to B.C. to trophy hunt.
They sure aren’t working for the residents of B.C. who are trying to fill their freezers with organic meat for families to eat.
Clarke Gatehouse,
Pemberton
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[Deadshot]

Didn't know Kutenay was banned.
There's a couple of threads on the go right now he would add alot of flavour to.
Come on, throw him the rope one more time.:D

[dana]

I'll post this again so I don't get buried by GG's Cut and Pastes.

Don't you guys see a problem with the stand you are taking against so called 'trophy hunting'? You guys start hammering away at the GOABC in the public media and you will loose more than you bargined for. Tell me, how many people hunt sheep for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. Tell me, how many people hunt grizz for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. What about cougars? Running hounds have been banned in other jurisdictions for far less of a thought than trophy hunting. Do you want to get in bed with the devil and play those games? You may not agree with everything the GOABC does, but they are fellow hunters. Taking them on using the 'trophy hunting' trump card, just means you are going to loose way more than what this fight was over to begin with.

[Dirty]

I'll post this again so I don't get buried by GG's Cut and Pastes.

Don't you guys see a problem with the stand you are taking against so called 'trophy hunting'? You guys start hammering away at the GOABC in the public media and you will loose more than you bargined for. Tell me, how many people hunt sheep for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. Tell me, how many people hunt grizz for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. What about cougars? Running hounds have been banned in other jurisdictions for far less of a thought than trophy hunting. Do you want to get in bed with the devil and play those games? You may not agree with everything the GOABC does, but they are fellow hunters. Taking them on using the 'trophy hunting' trump card, just means you are going to loose way more than what this fight was over to begin with.

Do you have a "Have you hugged your local G/O today?" bumper sticker?

[mark]

I'll post this again so I don't get buried by GG's Cut and Pastes.

Don't you guys see a problem with the stand you are taking against so called 'trophy hunting'? You guys start hammering away at the GOABC in the public media and you will loose more than you bargined for. Tell me, how many people hunt sheep for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. Tell me, how many people hunt grizz for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. What about cougars? Running hounds have been banned in other jurisdictions for far less of a thought than trophy hunting. Do you want to get in bed with the devil and play those games? You may not agree with everything the GOABC does, but they are fellow hunters. Taking them on using the 'trophy hunting' trump card, just means you are going to loose way more than what this fight was over to begin with.

Dana you have a valid point, but these arn't the animals in question. Its moose elk and deer, our table meat critters that are being restricted. These are the critters that affect most every hunter in BC, feed families and keep people hunting.

[Dirty]

Dana you have a valid point, but these arn't the animals in question. Its moose elk and deer, our table meat critters that are being restricted. These are the critters that affect most every hunter in BC, feed families and keep people hunting.

Amen brother. Preach it.

[dana]

Dirty,
Nope. I do hope to one day hunt Grizz again. And since I've got myself a couple hounds, I do hope to continue to run lions. Seems there are some hell bent on taking that away. And you boys are about to sell your souls to have them do it.

Mark,
Coming out against trophy hunting means you are coming out against trophy hunting. To the ecofreaks, they don't care if it is a big ol' muley buck, big stinky bullwinkle or a grizz. They are against it all. And if you join their ranks on one critter, you will see them go after another till she's all gone.

[Dirty]

Dirty,
Nope. I do hope to one day hunt Grizz again. And since I've got myself a couple hounds, I do hope to continue to run lions. Seems there are some hell bent on taking that away. And you boys are about to sell your souls to have them do it.

Mark,
Coming out against trophy hunting means you are coming out against trophy hunting. To the ecofreaks, they don't care if it is a big ol' muley buck, big stinky bullwinkle or a grizz. They are against it all. And if you join their ranks on one critter, you will see them go after another till she's all gone.

You should become a politician, because you have a great way of turning things around to make them seem different than they really are. The reason we are pissed is because GO's are getting allocations that should be going to RH's. You keep beating to death the trophy hunting things and saying that if we go against GO's it's going to backfire. What is your vested interest with the GO's? You might call me a tree-hugger, but at least I am not a GO hugger.

[GoatGuy]

http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/kelownacapitalnews/opinion/letters/42789632.html



Voting issue



The Ministry of Environment promised to review Limited Entry Hunting; implement a hunter recruitment and retention plan; where applicable place LEH on general open seasons.
I’m tired of my family’s freezer being empty while foreign head hunters load up. I’m tired of a ministry that has lost touch with its citizens. I have lost all faith that they ethically and morally represent the best interests of British Columbians. I will be voting for change May 12.
Mike Langegger,
B.C.

[dana]

Dirty,
If I wanted a vested interest in outfitting, I could have it. Like I said early, hunting means way more to me than making money.

[Dirty]

Dirty,
If I wanted a vested interest in outfitting, I could have it. Like I said early, hunting means way more to me than making money.

Then why do you want to bleed our system with DIY guiding?

[mark]

Dirty,

Mark,
Coming out against trophy hunting means you are coming out against trophy hunting. To the ecofreaks, they don't care if it is a big ol' muley buck, big stinky bullwinkle or a grizz. They are against it all. And if you join their ranks on one critter, you will see them go after another till she's all gone.

Im not siding with dirty, or coming against trophy hunting, Im not bashing the guides either or suggesting that they dont have their place. But... if we want to maintain hunters and hunting in BC, these meat animals must be made readily available to residents and have priority over GO's.
Ive been living off of moose elk and deer all my life, and would like to keep it that way please, Ive never shot a sheep, goat or grizz but yes Id like that opportunity someday.
As it sits in BC, deer are the only readily available, realativly easy food animal left in BC, lets not make that any harder, and lets loosen the strings a bit on moose and elk!

[6616]

Im not siding with dirty, or coming against trophy hunting, Im not bashing the guides either or suggesting that they dont have their place. But... if we want to maintain hunters and hunting in BC, these meat animals must be made readily available to residents and have priority over GO's.
Ive been living off of moose elk and deer all my life, and would like to keep it that way please, Ive never shot a sheep, goat or grizz but yes Id like that opportunity someday.
As it sits in BC, deer are the only readily available, realativly easy food animal left in BC, lets not make that any harder, and lets loosen the strings a bit on moose and elk!

I think this is all anyone wants. We need to make hunting attractive enough to get back some of the lost hunters that LEH and restrictive regulations have discouraged and recruit a new crop. To do this we need to move away from unnecessarily restrictive regulations, not add more like Region 5 is planning to do with mule deer.

This may have led to bashing trophy hunting and guide-outfitters, but that is difficult not to do when the bulk of the restrictive regulations have been to the benefit of guides and have been lobbied for by the GOABC. There's enough game and species for everyone, but outfitters only need a reasonable share, not 30 or 40 %, when is enough, enough already.

Why does the GOABC keep lobbying for more allocation and more restrictions on resident hunters to create quality experiences for their clientel? Some have suggested we should work together with GOABC to attack the bigger problems, and this is correct, but why then does GOABC not see this and stand-down on their effort restrict resident hunters. Why does the GOABC oppose spike/fork moose seasons? Why does GOABC oppose the recruitment/retention strategy? Why is GOABC pushing for more LEH? Is this not the driving force wedging BC resident hunters and the GOABC apart?

[ultramagbob]

Lots of food for thought here.

[6616]

Here's just one example (from my backyard):

Between 1990 and 2006 non-resident moose hunter numbers tripled and non-resident moose kills more then doubled.

Between 1990 and 2006 resident moose hunter numbers declined by 80% and resident moose kills declined by 60%.

In 1990 there was a non-resident cumulative guide-outfitter total quota of 15 non-resident tags, today the total outfitter quota is 106 tags.

The moose population in 1990 was about 5000, today it's about 7000. Some areas have calf ratios as high as 70/100 cows and bull ratios as high as 80/100 cows. Moose went on LEH in 1991.

There are many, many other similar examples across BC. Is this OK,,, or should we be bitching about it..?

[Deadshot]

Why does the GOABC keep lobbying for more allocation and more restrictions on resident hunters to create quality experiences for their clientel? Some have suggested we should work together with GOABC to attack the bigger problems, and this is correct, but why then does GOABC not see this and stand-down on their effort restrict resident hunters. Why does the GOABC oppose spike/fork moose seasons? Why does GOABC oppose the recruitment/retention strategy? Why is GOABC pushing for more LEH? Is this not the driving force wedging BC resident hunters and the GOABC apart?

GREED comes to mind.

[mark]

There are many, many other similar examples across BC. Is this OK,,, or should we be bitching about it..?

I think we should all bitch some more, cuz its not right, lets put the food back on the tables or residents!


GREED comes to mind.

Greed, exactly my thoughts, no other reason!

[willy442]

It actually would be quite easy to permanently end all "non-resident alien" hunting here in BC and this should be done immediately.

A campaign such as the "war in the woods" that resulted in preservation of a percentage of BC's wilderness for future generations, after a small number of real conservationists spent DECADES of begging both Socred and NDP adminstrations for mere scraps, would motivate government to END the disgraceful situation we now endure.

Get the mass media involved, get some "high profile" individuals to strongly endorse ONLY BC citizen hunting/angling here, for primarily food purposes and it WILL happen.

Speak up, stand out, fight back and smash the GOABC with constant legal challenges to their slimey behaviour. Blockade areas where they operate, confront rich Yankee "hunters" at airports, non-violently, and just tell them, KEEP OUT OF BC!!!!!

Yeah, it CAN be done, let's DO IT!!!!

This has got to be the one and only 25th generation Canadian. Nice of you to come out of the basement KUTENAY. We haven't had anybody so left wing on the site since you were banned.:lol:

[dana]

Ol Koot was lost but now is found. :)

[willy442]

I'll post this again so I don't get buried by GG's Cut and Pastes.

Don't you guys see a problem with the stand you are taking against so called 'trophy hunting'? You guys start hammering away at the GOABC in the public media and you will loose more than you bargined for. Tell me, how many people hunt sheep for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. Tell me, how many people hunt grizz for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. What about cougars? Running hounds have been banned in other jurisdictions for far less of a thought than trophy hunting. Do you want to get in bed with the devil and play those games? You may not agree with everything the GOABC does, but they are fellow hunters. Taking them on using the 'trophy hunting' trump card, just means you are going to loose way more than what this fight was over to begin with.

Dana: I agree with you 100%. Glad to see a few out there can see past the end of thier nose on these issues. I feel sorry for those that want to keep the G/O verse's res battle going, these guy's could be your best allies over time if everyone could get past the me,me,me stage and start looking at wildlife. ( I don't need your stats on this GG)

[GoatGuy]

Don't you guys see a problem with the stand you are taking against so called 'trophy hunting'? You guys start hammering away at the GOABC in the public media and you will loose more than you bargined for. Tell me, how many people hunt sheep for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. Tell me, how many people hunt grizz for the meat? Is it not a trophy hunt. What about cougars? Running hounds have been banned in other jurisdictions for far less of a thought than trophy hunting. Do you want to get in bed with the devil and play those games? You may not agree with everything the GOABC does, but they are fellow hunters. Taking them on using the 'trophy hunting' trump card, just means you are going to loose way more than what this fight was over to begin with.

Lets get one thing straight - the overwhelming number of residents only priority is to be able to GO HUNTING and hopefully harvest something. That's it, things go no farther than that. Right now they can't GO HUNTING and good luck harvesting something on the 'quality opportunity' regs we have if you're a very average hunter. That's a huge part of the reason we have half the hunters.

I guess when you look at things like sheep you need to ask what value is placed on the meat and the experience. You also need to ask yourself why people used to hunt sheep. There was a 3/4 and any ram seasons way back for a reason. Talk to the old-timers, people were harvesting whatever was legal and you can bet if the curl restrictions were lifted the exact same would apply. You need to ask yourself if it was an any ram season how many hunters would be holding out for a big ram? Not many and if they were that would be their choice however the shouldn't be the one who regulations are setup for. In this case the season has created the hunter that you see today - just like the 6 pt elk seasons will.

Never mind a ewe hunt or a doe GOS or a cow elk tag. At the end of the day it needs to be about science - not catering to one group but managing for a sustainable harvest. A lot of animals and opportunities fit under that (including grizzly hunting) BUT we're a long ways away from that right now - it's damn near all about 'quality opportunity' and 'economic viability' and that has nothing to do with the resident hunter and everything to do with the non-resident. Maximize opportunity and harvest and then the handful of people who are looking for a big animal are a very small part of a big picture.

I've met several people who hunt goats for meat and in places in Alaska that is why residents hunt goats - no more no less. There are also probably a handful who don't up there but they make up the minority not the majority.

As far as the fellow hunter thing goes, that's true however not like it was in the past. Many companies are foreign owned and it's about $ and trophies. That hasn't helped the resident hunter's image one iota. Other jurisdictions do really well with resident hunters and basically resident hunters alone. I was just talking to a buddy who's an outfitter about that 2 nights ago. He says it's kinda depressing because most of the guys aren't even hunters anymore. Surprisingly he hates LEH! :roll:

Alaska's got a big movement to change the regs for resident only and have already started. Alberta and Saskatchewan have resident only areas and very small allocations. Washington state is practically driven entirely by resident hunters and seasons for them.

We're surrounded by Provinces and States where residents decide where, when and how much. That ain't the way it is in BC and that needs to change. If we keep up with these trophy regs we're going to drive ourselves right into the ground - we're well on our way to that already.

Trophy hunting has and always will make up a very small fraction of hunting and that's fine. However, somehow that gap has increased in BC and it don't look good on anybody. You can't dress it up or down - it is what it is and it don't represent resident hunters.

Time to get back to putting a steak on the plate, not a 'nil'.

[GoatGuy]

Dana: I agree with you 100%. Glad to see a few out there can see past the end of thier nose on these issues. I feel sorry for those that want to keep the G/O verse's res battle going, these guy's could be your best allies over time if everyone could get past the me,me,me stage and start looking at wildlife. ( I don't need your stats on this GG)

Everything will work out once people figure out where there place is in line. Once that's established I'm sure everything will be fine.

[willy442]

Everything will work out once people figure out where there place is in line. Once that's established I'm sure everything will be fine.

People in the BCWF have been trying to establish that for longer than Bridger's been a resident of this country.:lol:

[dana]

GG,
I don't disagree. I just think if you take this out to the mainstream media, you are going to loose way way more as the Granola leaning Vancouverite public will see all hunting as trophy hunting. The spin doctors are not on our side. It is a slippery slope and you pushing might just send us over the edge.

[horshur]

anyone who repeatedly breaks signed agreements will again..there is no final solution that brings honestly to the dishonest...if they are not upholding an agreement and all protocol has failed then what options are there.
Whomever it is who is being belligerent needs to be held accountable.....

critizizing the fed because they not political enough for being political kinda don't know bout that.

I won't work for anyone who habitualy bounces cheques.......it is not good business.

if all parties would act in good faith then that would be the goundwork for cooperation.....

Fool me once..shame on you ..fool me twice..shame on me.

[Deadshot]

I feel sorry for those that want to keep the G/O verse's res battle going, these guy's could be your best allies over time if everyone could get past the me,me,me stage and start looking at wildlife. ( I don't need your stats on this GG)
So now that we wise up, we should embrace the G/O's.:roll:
It seems the G/O's are well into it with the me,me,me stage.

[GoatGuy]

People in the BCWF have been trying to establish that for longer than Bridger's been a resident of this country.:lol:

Thanks for you .002.

[GoatGuy]

GG,
I don't disagree. I just think if you take this out to the mainstream media, you are going to loose way way more as the Granola leaning Vancouverite public will see all hunting as trophy hunting. The spin doctors are not on our side. It is a slippery slope and you pushing might just send us over the edge.


Who says I'm pushing anything? As far as the 'mainstream media' you need to do your research on what people support and what they don't. You also need to look at where half of the MLAs live and who their constituents are. It's really no more complex than that.

Do you have a solution? Just sit on the sidelines, hand in the pockets and take it?

"Here, please take my hunting opportunity away and put me on LEH like you have since the 80s - I enjoyed that. Can we please go back to 1 in 3 on sheep and go back to being allocated 23% of the harvest? Can I please have more?"

Your kids won't have a hunting season in 20 years if the next 20 years are like the last. Time to roll up the sleeves and get to work.

[GoatGuy]

anyone who repeatedly breaks signed agreements will again..there is no final solution that brings honestly to the dishonest...if they are not upholding an agreement and all protocol has failed then what options are there.
Whomever it is who is being belligerent needs to be held accountable.....

critizizing the fed because they not political enough for being political kinda don't know bout that.

I won't work for anyone who habitualy bounces cheques.......it is not good business.

if all parties would act in good faith then that would be the goundwork for cooperation.....

Fool me once..shame on you ..fool me twice..shame on me.

You'd think a policy that was signed two years ago would be easy to follow, and that everyone would be on board, wouldn't you?

We're so far from that it isn't even funny. Apparently resident priority means we get to go hunting if we're lucky with the black pen on the LEHs.

Good God.

[willy442]

You'd think a policy that was signed two years ago would be easy to follow, and that everyone would be on board, wouldn't you?

We're so far from that it isn't even funny. Apparently resident priority means we get to go hunting if we're lucky with the black pen on the LEHs.

Good God.

There is a big difference between policy and regulation. With all your stats, I for one would have thought you to be more adept at the political wrangling part of things to make the policy become regulation. Unfortunately divide we all stand again and the almighty dollar will win one more time.:roll:

[bridger]

There is a big difference between policy and regulation. With all your stats, I for one would have thought you to be more adept at the political wrangling part of things to make the policy become regulation. Unfortunately divide we all stand again and the almighty dollar will win one more time.:roll:

Willie i agree the goabc and resident hunters should work together for the betterment of us all. with your background both as an outfitter and resident hunter do you have any suggestions as to how we can accomplish that?

[willy442]

Willie i agree the goabc and resident hunters should work together for the betterment of us all. with your background both as an outfitter and resident hunter do you have any suggestions as to how we can accomplish that?

Lay aside the old grudges and bullshit. Bring new people and new ideas to the table. There hasn't been trust on any side for along time now. It has to change and we have to stop accepting POLICY from Government.

I have no problem with the bringing the new allocation policy into effect. Remember though over time the policy crap has always been detramental to what ever is being discussed. Policy can be followed, ignored or changed as has been the case many times. Items like allocation need to made into regulation, this would cut out the crap from all sides and possibly once these items are set in concrete the groups would all be in a better position to work together and start directing the managers.

If everyone is looking for a quick fix, it most likely won't happen. Through a bit of patience and perserverance, the long term outcome would be way better for all hunters.

[GoatGuy]

There is a big difference between policy and regulation. With all your stats, I for one would have thought you to be more adept at the political wrangling part of things to make the policy become regulation. Unfortunately divide we all stand again and the almighty dollar will win one more time.:roll:


I guess it's time to change that difference. Fire some people if they aren't following policy. That's what happens in all the other sectors of government. Don't know how or why people in MoE have some sort of exemption.

I can tell you that this would get rid of some of the conflict. Well, either that or increase it. Seems the only people who lose on policy are residents. Funny.

[willy442]

I guess it's time to change that difference. Fire some people if they aren't following policy. That's what happens in all the other sectors of government. Don't know how or why people in MoE have some sort of exemption.

I can tell you that this would get rid of some of the conflict. Well, either that or increase it. Seems the only people who lose on policy are residents. Funny.

Your direction of thought in your last sentence on the matter at hand will really do alot to help the situation. I'm sure the guides and government would jump at the chance to sit in a brainstorming session with you.
Policy is far more wide spread in government than the MOE and is not always followed in many other areas, hospitals, health care, schools and immigration just to name a few.

[dana]

Willy,
What is it that the GOABC really want? I would assume more allocations so they can book more hunts? The resident wants the same thing, more allocations so they can hunt more. I'm not a rocket scientist but it seems an easy fix for both parties would be an ellimination of LEH where there in no conservation concern. I understand the assumption that restrictive seasons produce bigger animals, but really how big do we think those so-called SCI shiras moose in 8 are going to grow? No matter how ya slice it, a dink is a dink is a dink. The yanks that want big moose ain't bookin' a southern BC hunt, they are instead heading North where the big bulls really live. I can't see where the outfitters in 8 have anything to gain by pushing for 'trophy' hunts. To me it is a no brainer. Open er up and you can sell more moose to those south eastern boys that don't care about size. The Europeans will buy the small moose packages as well. If one can sell more hunts you'd be making more money would ya not????

[GoatGuy]

Your direction of thought in your last sentence on the matter at hand will really do alot to help the situation. I'm sure the guides and government would jump at the chance to sit in a brainstorming session with you.
Policy is far more wide spread in government than the MOE and is not always followed in many other areas, hospitals, health care, schools and immigration just to name a few.

People don't follow policy in other ministries they get fired especially when you're neglecting you own policy and negatively impacting your biggest client group. It's no more difficult than that.

[mark]

Willy,
What is it that the GOABC really want? I would assume more allocations so they can book more hunts? The resident wants the same thing, more allocations so they can hunt more. I'm not a rocket scientist but it seems an easy fix for both parties would be an ellimination of LEH where there in no conservation concern. I understand the assumption that restrictive seasons produce bigger animals, but really how big do we think those so-called SCI shiras moose in 8 are going to grow? No matter how ya slice it, a dink is a dink is a dink. The yanks that want big moose ain't bookin' a southern BC hunt, they are instead heading North where the big bulls really live. I can't see where the outfitters in 8 have anything to gain by pushing for 'trophy' hunts. To me it is a no brainer. Open er up and you can sell more moose to those south eastern boys that don't care about size. The Europeans will buy the small moose packages as well. If one can sell more hunts you'd be making more money would ya not????

Dana, are you suggesting a GOS on any bull for reg. 8???
I will admit that there are lots of moose around right now, displacing alot of mulies on the winter range! So Id be in favor of it!

[Dirty]

Willy,
What is it that the GOABC really want? I would assume more allocations so they can book more hunts? The resident wants the same thing, more allocations so they can hunt more. I'm not a rocket scientist but it seems an easy fix for both parties would be an ellimination of LEH where there in no conservation concern. I understand the assumption that restrictive seasons produce bigger animals, but really how big do we think those so-called SCI shiras moose in 8 are going to grow? No matter how ya slice it, a dink is a dink is a dink. The yanks that want big moose ain't bookin' a southern BC hunt, they are instead heading North where the big bulls really live. I can't see where the outfitters in 8 have anything to gain by pushing for 'trophy' hunts. To me it is a no brainer. Open er up and you can sell more moose to those south eastern boys that don't care about size. The Europeans will buy the small moose packages as well. If one can sell more hunts you'd be making more money would ya not????

How can there be a happy balance of giving more licenses to the GOABC or giving more to the RH's? It is logical that both sides want more, but who is going to stand in and make the decision on who receives more or less. It is obvious the MOE is making bad decisions in some areas. Who deserves more tags? IMHO, the RH's deserve a larger portion of the allocations. However, we continually see high odds in some areas and low odds in others, where RH's will continually put in for low-chance LEH's year after year. I can see where RH's are shooting themselves in the foot by not putting in for other draws and going the extra mile to harvest an animal. Look at the odds for Moose draws in Region 3 and 8. They are fairly high, however, the success levels are fairly low as well. Yet we see people put in year after year after year, hoping to get a tag that they do not have a very good chance of filling. I guess getting a tag, and having a chance of going hunting is more important than being successful.

[willy442]

People don't follow policy in other ministries they get fired especially when you're neglecting you own policy and negatively impacting your biggest client group. It's no more difficult than that.

Show me some one fired for it. You should really be able to come up with some good numbers on this!:smile:

[houndogger]

I can't really comment on the whole allocation deal cause I don't know what is on the table. I myself don't really care. I don't feel threaten by outfitters. I have worked for one in the past. Small operation small family buisness making a modest income. Does a few weeks of bear hunting in the spring. Has one grizz every three years. Has 12 moose permits. The leh for residents is like 150 I think. I will have to go look it up. Going to get his 12 moose cut to 4.

Goatguy on this one do ya think it is going to provide the residents so much more opurtunity? Maybe it would be better to figure out a way for the unused leh's to go to the guys that didn't get drawn? When I have guided in the area I have only seen a handfull of residents.

Like I say I can't comment on the hole issue cause I ain't into following it. I have never had a problem filling tags in B.C. or thinking I was getting the shaft. We are better off here then alot of you think.

My 2 cents anyways. Back to your red faced rant:razz:

[GoatGuy]

Show me some one fired for it. You should really be able to come up with some good numbers on this!:smile:

Head of COS last month.

[GoatGuy]

I can't really comment on the whole allocation deal cause I don't know what is on the table. I myself don't really care. I don't feel threaten by outfitters. I have worked for one in the past. Small operation small family buisness making a modest income. Does a few weeks of bear hunting in the spring. Has one grizz every three years. Has 12 moose permits. The leh for residents is like 150 I think. I will have to go look it up. Going to get his 12 moose cut to 4.

Goatguy on this one do ya think it is going to provide the residents so much more opurtunity? Maybe it would be better to figure out a way for the unused leh's to go to the guys that didn't get drawn? When I have guided in the area I have only seen a handfull of residents.

Like I say I can't comment on the hole issue cause I ain't into following it. I have never had a problem filling tags in B.C. or thinking I was getting the shaft. We are better off here then alot of you think.

My 2 cents anyways. Back to your red faced rant:razz:

The allocation policy says residents are supposed to shoot X % of animals and non-residents are supposed to shoot X % of animals. Non-residents are shooting theirs in most places. Residents aren't in most places.

The reason people aren't getting their LEHs is because managers aren't letting enough go and they know residents will never harvest their allocated share.

In 2012 that means residents share goes down again because they didn't shoot their allocated harvest.

[willy442]

Willy,
What is it that the GOABC really want? I would assume more allocations so they can book more hunts? The resident wants the same thing, more allocations so they can hunt more. I'm not a rocket scientist but it seems an easy fix for both parties would be an ellimination of LEH where there in no conservation concern. I understand the assumption that restrictive seasons produce bigger animals, but really how big do we think those so-called SCI shiras moose in 8 are going to grow? No matter how ya slice it, a dink is a dink is a dink. The yanks that want big moose ain't bookin' a southern BC hunt, they are instead heading North where the big bulls really live. I can't see where the outfitters in 8 have anything to gain by pushing for 'trophy' hunts. To me it is a no brainer. Open er up and you can sell more moose to those south eastern boys that don't care about size. The Europeans will buy the small moose packages as well. If one can sell more hunts you'd be making more money would ya not????

I don't believe the guides are fighting for much more than they have in most area's. Where the problem lies is with the unharvested allocation. The G/O's arguement is that if the resident hunter fails to be able to achieve his harvest in different MU's then the guide should be able to increase his harvest. The main example of where this comes into play is unaccessable areas, alot of region 6, some of region 7 and most likely also some of the southern units of which I'm not familiar with. When you look at wildlife as being a renewable resource and treated as such by government, selling off unharvested animals makes sense. This is the G/O's arguement in a nut shell. In all the years that I was involved with the guiding, everyone was in agreement that the resident came before the nonresident, so that in it's self is not an issue. The who gets what has always been the problem. To say more hunters in the field would allow the resident to achieve thier harvest levels is pretty much garbage. Reason being the resident hunter numbers are not high enough at present to make that much of a difference. Also with the exception of Dall Sheep and Grizzly Bear, you can hunt every species of game somewhere under GOS. For the back yard hunters, maybe we should be looking at some resident only areas mostly down south with special bow, black powder, junior and senior seasons.

I will not make any commets on the moose in the south as I'm not that familiar with whats taken place there. I'm in total agreement though that they are not hunted as trophies in the southern portions of the province.

[willy442]

Head of COS last month.

That's all you can come up with on an issue that's been ongoing for over 30 years. Policy means close to nothing if you were to really look.

[dana]

Dana, are you suggesting a GOS on any bull for reg. 8???
I will admit that there are lots of moose around right now, displacing alot of mulies on the winter range! So Id be in favor of it!

Mark,
That is exactly what I'm suggesting, but I want it bigger than that. I want a Southern Moose Strategy where all southern Regions have the same unified seasons, thus keeping hunting presured at a min and making sure we don't have a conservation concern within a couple of years. The moose pops across the vast majority of the south have rebounded and are very very strong. They can withstand GOS if done correctly. It is a no brainer to me. It is obvious the south is not a trophy hunt. The G/O's could sell as many small moose hunts as they want and the residents get to go hunting. Win/win in my opinion.

[GoatGuy]

I don't believe the guides are fighting for much more than they have in most area's. Where the problem lies is with the unharvested allocation. The G/O's arguement is that if the resident hunter fails to be able to achieve his harvest in different MU's then the guide should be able to increase his harvest. The main example of where this comes into play is unaccessable areas, alot of region 6, some of region 7 and most likely also some of the southern units of which I'm not familiar with. When you look at wildlife as being a renewable resource and treated as such by government, selling off unharvested animals makes sense. This is the G/O's arguement in a nut shell. In all the years that I was involved with the guiding, everyone was in agreement that the resident came before the nonresident, so that in it's self is not an issue. The who gets what has always been the problem. To say more hunters in the field would allow the resident to achieve thier harvest levels is pretty much garbage. Reason being the resident hunter numbers are not high enough at present to make that much of a difference. Also with the exception of Dall Sheep and Grizzly Bear, you can hunt every species of game somewhere under GOS. For the back yard hunters, maybe we should be looking at some resident only areas mostly down south with special bow, black powder, junior and senior seasons.

I will not make any commets on the moose in the south as I'm not that familiar with whats taken place there. I'm in total agreement though that they are not hunted as trophies in the southern portions of the province.

You are so out to lunch it isn't even funny.

5 years ago resident hunters were allocated 23% of stone's sheep in 7B. Now they harvest 75% just by removing the 1 in 3. Bizzare.

Outfitters want more all across the province and yes there are still enough hunters to shoot the allocation as long as the LEH garbage is scrapped where there's no conservation concern and so that they get enough LEH authorizations to shoot their animals. The isn't all about the outfitter's in Region 6 and 7 - that's just what you hear. It's about Roosevelt elk, rocky mountain elk, moose, mule deer and even friggen black bears in the south now.


Resident moose hunters in Region 4 went from 3500 to 500 a decrease of close to 85%
Non-resident moose hunters went from an average of 25 to over 90 an increase of more than 3 1/2 times

Resident harvest has gone from 500 to less than 200. Again a cut of 60%
Non-resident harvest has gone from less than 20 to over 50. Increased 2 1/2 times.

You'll find the exact same thing for moose in Region 6 south where it's LEH, Region 5, 4 and 8.

Resident hunters tossed out of the bush and their tags and spots filled by non-residents.

This isn't rocket science. No hunting seasons no hunters.

Moose in Regions 4 and 8 are now hunted as 'trophy Shiras moose' even though there is not one ounce of evidence that these are shiras moose. The only two organizations who think they are GOABC and SCI. Oh wait and lets not forget the immature bull moose season has killed off the trophy potential in Region 8 so we should get rid of it.

I don't know what kind of insulated world you live in but it ain't reality. You say everybody knew residents had priority, that's garbage. How did you old man feel about packers?


Residents have spent 25 years listening to BS like yours and all that's happened is they've given away their hunting opportunity and their animals.

Enough of this garbage.

[GoatGuy]

Mark,
That is exactly what I'm suggesting, but I want it bigger than that. I want a Southern Moose Strategy where all southern Regions have the same unified seasons, thus keeping hunting presured at a min and making sure we don't have a conservation concern within a couple of years. The moose pops across the vast majority of the south have rebounded and are very very strong. They can withstand GOS if done correctly. It is a no brainer to me. It is obvious the south is not a trophy hunt. The G/O's could sell as many small moose hunts as they want and the residents get to go hunting. Win/win in my opinion.

And there isn't even an antlerless LEH on moose in Region 8. What a joke.

G/Os don't support GOS because it ruins the 'quality of hunt' just ask the guys in Region 5.

[358mag]

Wish that Mr Al Springer would have also said it his interview about the 191 resident LEH moose tags in Region 8 for 2008 and about the harvest of over 200 + spike-2 point bull moose the the BC residents also took out of Region 8 and the unregulated harvest of cow-call-bull moose the the First Nation hunters also harvested in Region 8.
.

[Fisher-Dude]

Wish that Mr Al Springer would have also said it his interview about the 191 resident LEH moose tags in Region 8 for 2008 and about the harvest of over 200 + spike-2 point bull moose the the BC residents also took out of Region 8 and the unregulated harvest of cow-call-bull moose the the First Nation hunters also harvested in Region 8.
.

More like an average of 110 spike/forks per year, which are open to everyone.

The 191 LEH tags only allow for 50 moose to be shot. The issue is that we should be shooting 88 moose on LEH. The refusal to increase the LEH tag numbers to meet the 88 moose allocation is the problem. Simple math says 88/50 x 191 = 336 LEH tags are needed. That would provide a lot more opportunity for folks to get out there moose hunting.

Furthermore, the manager has allocated only 84 moose to residents and given the 4 we should have received to the G/Os, which is contrary to the 85/15 split dictated by the allocation policy on region 8 moose.

[willy442]

You are so out to lunch it isn't even funny.

5 years ago resident hunters were allocated 23% of stone's sheep in 7B. Now they harvest 75% just by removing the 1 in 3. Bizzare.

Remove the one in three and now the resident can go shoot a little dink ram every year and harvest 75% of thier quota. You're right BIZZARE!

Outfitters want more all across the province and yes there are still enough hunters to shoot the allocation as long as the LEH garbage is scrapped where there's no conservation concern and so that they get enough LEH authorizations to shoot their animals. The isn't all about the outfitter's in Region 6 and 7 - that's just what you hear. It's about Roosevelt elk, rocky mountain elk, moose, mule deer and even friggen black bears in the south now.

I'm well aware you and some others are crying about the harvest province wide. The leh has nothing to do with it in many cases. You think leh is there to protect animals, which is bullshit. Leh is in place to disperse resident hunters in most cases. Agreed in some places it can now be relaxed a little with some stringent seasons and guidelines it can probably even be sustained.


Resident moose hunters in Region 4 went from 3500 to 500 a decrease of close to 85%
Non-resident moose hunters went from an average of 25 to over 90 an increase of more than 3 1/2 times

Thats a drop of 2900 hunters over all, I guess LEH is accomplishing what it was meant to. Open up the season, cut the G/O back to 25 and lets see how look it lasts. You could make this your first personnal scientific study.

Resident harvest has gone from 500 to less than 200. Again a cut of 60%
Non-resident harvest has gone from less than 20 to over 50. Increased 2 1/2 times.

I'll bet the nonresident harvest wasn't taken along side the logging roads like most the resident harvest would have been. Remember LEH to disperse hunters, an idea you fail to grasp, but one which is used in management.

You'll find the exact same thing for moose in Region 6 south where it's LEH, Region 5, 4 and 8.

So again lots of moose, easy access and limited entry to stop over harvest of localized areas. If yopu want top change this look at smaller MU's and set harvest by each individual MU instead of LEH. It will work fine and better accomplish what is intended.

Resident hunters tossed out of the bush and their tags and spots filled by non-residents.

With Moose that were most likely not reachable by John Q public.

This isn't rocket science. No hunting seasons no hunters.

Don't even go there, you have the most liberal hunting seasons in North America

Moose in Regions 4 and 8 are now hunted as 'trophy Shiras moose' even though there is not one ounce of evidence that these are shiras moose. The only two organizations who think they are GOABC and SCI. Oh wait and lets not forget the immature bull moose season has killed off the trophy potential in Region 8 so we should get rid of it.

They're most likely the only 2 groups capable of telling the difference.:-P

I don't know what kind of insulated world you live in but it ain't reality. You say everybody knew residents had priority, that's garbage. How did you old man feel about packers?

Why do you all of a sudden what to bring up packers. The issue has been taken care of. They are now regulated as they should be. That was the issue in the past. Grasping at straws?


Residents have spent 25 years listening to BS like yours and all that's happened is they've given away their hunting opportunity and their animals.

Enough of this garbage.

No thats where you are wrong. Residents for the most part have been represented by radical individuals, much like yourself, that were not able to organize the bulk of the provinces hunters to form a solid approach on issue's. I can guarantee the G/O's are happy to see people like yourself try though. It leaves the present being dealt with in the same manner as the past and insure's thier bargaining power will stay intact. While the resident defeats himself. Like I said in a earlier post " bet the groups can't wait to sit down with you"

[bridger]

I don't believe the guides are fighting for much more than they have in most area's. Where the problem lies is with the unharvested allocation. The G/O's arguement is that if the resident hunter fails to be able to achieve his harvest in different MU's then the guide should be able to increase his harvest. The main example of where this comes into play is unaccessable areas, alot of region 6, some of region 7 and most likely also some of the southern units of which I'm not familiar with. When you look at wildlife as being a renewable resource and treated as such by government, selling off unharvested animals makes sense. This is the G/O's arguement in a nut shell. In all the years that I was involved with the guiding, everyone was in agreement that the resident came before the nonresident, so that in it's self is not an issue. The who gets what has always been the problem. To say more hunters in the field would allow the resident to achieve thier harvest levels is pretty much garbage. Reason being the resident hunter numbers are not high enough at present to make that much of a difference. Also with the exception of Dall Sheep and Grizzly Bear, you can hunt every species of game somewhere under GOS. For the back yard hunters, maybe we should be looking at some resident only areas mostly down south with special bow, black powder, junior and senior seasons.

I will not make any commets on the moose in the south as I'm not that familiar with whats taken place there. I'm in total agreement though that they are not hunted as trophies in the southern portions of the province.
if the unharvested resident allocation should go to non residents it then follows that the unharvested non resident allocation should go to residents right? if that is the case region 7b non resident sheep quota's should be reduced 30% right now as they are harvesting only 70% of the quota. in region 6 non residents are onlly harvesting 50% of the sheep quota. aside from that I will say again this isnt a fight between residents and guide outfitters. The fed is merely trying to get the moe to allow residents to harvest the share that the goabc agreed we should have.. keep focused on the issues and not these side conversations and we can work together to make it happen.. it is not compicated!

[bridger]

re sheep harvest. the removal of the one in three not only allows residents to harvest "dink rams" ( as you say)it also allow guide outfitters and their clients to do the same and they are. look in the grand slam magazine some of those non resident rams don't even look legal! Having said that I will say again this is not a fight between residents and non residents.. the fed is merely trying to equal the playing field so that non residents do not continue to have priority over residents. it is that simple.. i hope we have non residents hunting in this province for the next 50 years, just don't give them priority over residents. that is what is happening and that is what is going on! pretty simple and that is what the hassle has been about since day one. I find it interesting that the fed has publicly stated on numerous ocassions that its membership supports a viable guiding industry yet I cannot re call one instance in the last 35 years where the goabc has publicly recognized the need for residents to have priority in harvest.

[willy442]

re sheep harvest. the removal of the one in three not only allows residents to harvest "dink rams" ( as you say)it also allow guide outfitters and their clients to do the same and they are. look in the grand slam magazine some of those non resident rams don't even look legal! Having said that I will say again this is not a fight between residents and non residents.. the fed is merely trying to equal the playing field so that non residents do not continue to have priority over residents. it is that simple.. i hope we have non residents hunting in this province for the next 50 years, just don't give them priority over residents. that is what is happening and that is what is going on! pretty simple and that is what the hassle has been about since day one. I find it interesting that the fed has publicly stated on numerous ocassions that its membership supports a viable guiding industry yet I cannot re call one instance in the last 35 years where the goabc has publicly recognized the need for residents to have priority in harvest.

Bridger: In my years being involved I cannot ever remember sitting in a meeting (open or closed) with the guides and anyone ever disputing the fact that the resident comes first. I sat in many through the years dad was president of both associations. Maybe with the new breed of G/O out there this has changed. If thats the case then yes I agree, the resident has a valid reason to kick ass.
On the other hand, all you have to do is pick a thread on here and you can see the resentment to guided hunting. Granted most that complain really do not understand all the issue's.

[willy442]

if the unharvested resident allocation should go to non residents it then follows that the unharvested non resident allocation should go to residents right? if that is the case region 7b non resident sheep quota's should be reduced 30% right now as they are harvesting only 70% of the quota. in region 6 non residents are onlly harvesting 50% of the sheep quota. aside from that I will say again this isnt a fight between residents and guide outfitters. The fed is merely trying to get the moe to allow residents to harvest the share that the goabc agreed we should have.. keep focused on the issues and not these side conversations and we can work together to make it happen.. it is not compicated!

The resident is not on allocation and can achieve his harvest if successful enough. The guide can only increase by what the resident fails to achieve. Why should you give the resident more harvest if he can't take what he has now? If this changes, yes reduce the guides.

[GoatGuy]

Bridger: In my years being involved I cannot ever remember sitting in a meeting (open or closed) with the guides and anyone ever disputing the fact that the resident comes first. I sat in many through the years dad was president of both associations. Maybe with the new breed of G/O out there this has changed. If thats the case then yes I agree, the resident has a valid reason to kick ass.

You should sit in on some nowadays. It's all about quality of product and quality of hunt. In no uncertain terms that means LEH.

[GoatGuy]

Remove the one in three and now the resident can go shoot a little dink ram every year and harvest 75% of thier quota. You're right BIZZARE!

You in a nutshell.

Residents are now fully utilizing their quota not 75% of it and they're happy.

Look at what some of the outfitter's are harvesting in 7B - same thing.

For most residents it isn't about the size of the horn and never has been.

It's about being able to go out and hunt and hopefully harvest something in a sustainable manner. Residents have never asked for more than this but they've certainly gotten less.

[bridger]

Bridger: In my years being involved I cannot ever remember sitting in a meeting (open or closed) with the guides and anyone ever disputing the fact that the resident comes first. I sat in many through the years dad was president of both associations. Maybe with the new breed of G/O out there this has changed. If thats the case then yes I agree, the resident has a valid reason to kick ass.
On the other hand, all you have to do is pick a thread on here and you can see the resentment to guided hunting. Granted most that complain really do not understand all the issue's.

unfortunately things have changed with the goabc since the good old days. just look at the difference in ownership your family owned the area and operated a family business something i have a lot of symphathy for.

these days we have mega outfits that are really international hunting companies which may own several areas not only in bc, but the yukon saskatchewan etc they don't winter in the peace looking after their areas like the family run outfit did..

When we go to an allocation meeting today we are not looking across the table at guys we know and have coffee with all year. we are looking at paid consultants that are biologists, ex regional managers for the moe and a hot rod paid executive manager, and some times even guys that don't live in bc for more the 4 months a year.


make no mistake the goabc is tryiing to promote quality hunting (trophy hunting) so their clients can bigger rams, bulls, bucks or whatever which means a reduction in resident opportunitiesthe. They are doing itvery quietlly lobbying victoria and more important the regional managers. times have changed willie and are in a fight for our hunting opportunities that none of us really want to be in. I don't know if it is right or wrong just the way it is

[willy442]

You in a nutshell.

Residents are now fully utilizing their quota not 75% of it and they're happy.

Look at what some of the outfitter's are harvesting in 7B - same thing.

For most residents it isn't about the size of the horn and never has been.

It's about being able to go out and hunt and hopefully harvest something in a sustainable manner. Residents have never asked for more than this but they've certainly gotten less.

You keep pulling the subject back to sheep. Sheep are primarily a trophy animal. The only reason the resident is even coming close to his harvest is we have the hunters with minimal sheep experiance going out year after year and shooting dink rams. The 1 in 3 is one of the best management tolls we ever had and should be brought back in ASAP regardless of allocation.

This will be my last post in response to your bullshit as I left the outfitting and the meetings so that I could wash my hands of your number crunching kind. It's very clear you ride the fence so you can stay confrontational on topics of which you have little more than stats. I hope the BCWF and the resident hunter see's that you are not the one that leads our hunting into the next decade. It would finish our hunting future.

[willy442]

unfortunately things have changed with the goabc since the good old days. just look at the difference in ownership your family owned the area and operated a family business something i have a lot of symphathy for.

these days we have mega outfits that are really international hunting companies which may own several areas not only in bc, but the yukon saskatchewan etc they don't winter in the peace looking after their areas like the family run outfit did..

When we go to an allocation meeting today we are not looking across the table at guys we know and have coffee with all year. we are looking at paid consultants that are biologists, ex regional managers for the moe and a hot rod paid executive manager, and some times even guys that don't live in bc for more the 4 months a year.


make no mistake the goabc is tryiing to promote quality hunting (trophy hunting) so their clients can bigger rams, bulls, bucks or whatever which means a reduction in resident opportunitiesthe. They are doing itvery quietlly lobbying victoria and more important the regional managers. times have changed willie and are in a fight for our hunting opportunities that none of us really want to be in. I don't know if it is right or wrong just the way it is

We all new it was going to go in that direction a few years ago Bridger. Thats when people should have been working towards solving many of the issues. Instead the old G/O verses Resident fueds kept everyone from forming a unified front. Sure left a big door open, didn't it?

[bridger]

We all new it was going to go in that direction a few years ago Bridger. Thats when people should have been working towards solving many of the issues. Instead the old G/O verses Resident fueds kept everyone from forming a unified front. Sure left a big door open, didn't it?


your wrong there. the old feelings did not surface for a lot of years. you can't seem to grasp that this latest surge is coming directly from the goabc. the fed was happy with the new allocation policy and was waiting for it to become policy. that hasn't happened. anduntil it does things wont change

[PGK]

Spoken like a true lumberjack. We shouldn't have to manage wildlife, we should be able to manage habitat and hunters. The entire landscape has changed. Ecosystems don't exist anymore. And no, I will not blame a bug whose path of destruction was wholly created by intensive fire suppression by forestry interests throughout the last 100 years!! The forest industry has noone to blame but themselves for the beetle. And now since the only logical solution (at least to the $$$$$$ lovers in the forest industry) was to burn it or cut it, we have massive tracts of totally altered land that may not even be recoverable. Ridiculous.


Nothing but the beetle has caused that, and we either log it and get something for it, or we pile it up and burn it, so either way, the "rape" as you see it will be happening. And for the most part, it is good habitat already. Logging helps wildlife (Ungulate) populations. Not as much as a good old burn, but for the animals we are talking about, it helps. The problem lies in the access to these sites. Thats where the problem will always be. Large Clearcuts can mimick large burns, if done properly, but the roads that are put in to access the wood need to be managed, or it just becomes a long range shooting game.

Managing habitat is pretty easy. Mother nature can do that on her own with very little help by man. And as Rams says, we can clean up some of the crap that MOE has piled on us, we can then concentrate and spend money on proper wildlife management.

Good post Rams

Cheers

SS

[Fisher-Dude]

we have massive tracts of totally altered land that may not even be recoverable. Ridiculous.

Please explain why these large pine clearcuts will never recover. Please provide references to other jurisdictions where large scale logging of lodgepole pine has never recovered. Please provide links to studies that back up your assertion.

I'm looking forward to reading the studies you find, because in all the years I spent in the forest industry, I never heard of a single lodgepole pine forest that did not regrow after harvesting.

Generally, lodgepole pine grows back in such numbers and so vigorously, that it is a battle to keep the stems per hectare DOWN to a number that is within acceptable restocking standards.

[mark]

And no, I will not blame a bug whose path of destruction was wholly created by intensive fire suppression by forestry interests throughout the last 100 years!! The forest industry has noone to blame but themselves for the beetle. And now since the only logical solution (at least to the $$$$$$ lovers in the forest industry) was to burn it or cut it, we have massive tracts of totally altered land that may not even be recoverable. Ridiculous.

Whats ridiculous??????
You say this like you've known, and seen this, all coming for a long time.
You must be so wise beyond your years! :roll:
Hindsight is always 20/20!

Burn it, or cut it.... you have a better idea???

Unrecoverable???? Where does this idea even come from???

[Timbow]

The entire landscape has changed. Ecosystems don't exist anymore.

Wasn't it around 10,000 years ago when the last iceage ended? How did we get the ecosystems of today? You have to look at the larger picture.

Cheers.

[Sitkaspruce]

Spoken like a true lumberjack. We shouldn't have to manage wildlife, we should be able to manage habitat and hunters. The entire landscape has changed. Ecosystems don't exist anymore. And no, I will not blame a bug whose path of destruction was wholly created by intensive fire suppression by forestry interests throughout the last 100 years!! The forest industry has noone to blame but themselves for the beetle. And now since the only logical solution (at least to the $$$$$$ lovers in the forest industry) was to burn it or cut it, we have massive tracts of totally altered land that may not even be recoverable. Ridiculous.

Oh boy, where do we even start to try and help this person see the light at the end of the doom and gloom tunnel. Not sure if you have been to the Bowron area, but that was the same thinking there as you have now, and the last time I checked, it was a flourishing forest with many species of wildlife, both big and small living there.

I would call upon you tell us how, as stewardships of the land, we can manage the timber any better. Should we just let it rot, fall to the forest floor and become an even bigger forest fire threat? You are correct in that we, as man, has allowed the outbreak to happen, but since there is nothing we can do now, we might as well get what we can from it and move forward. A pine forest is a mature forest at 81 years and an old growth at 121 years. Pine is a fast growing, healthy tree that needs disturbance to populate. Not sure about your comment about not being recoverable? Can you explain that?

And do not worry about the wildlife, most will adapt and benefit from the disturbances. As I said before, it is the access we need to control, the logging is completed for the most part.

And last, I am not a lumberjack, the only time I did logging was when we used to salvage Cedar for M&B out Bamfield way, back in my crazy youth days. I worked as a forest tech for 14 years in FSJames, before moving back to the Island. I was in the trenches, so to speak ,when it came to the beetle and what we could and could not do. Seen many different thing tried before we opted for the large clearcuts as a last resort to get the most $$$ for the wood, $$$ that have helped helped build the Olympics:wink:, but has not benefitted the communities that cut the wood.

Sorry to go off topic Rams and everyone who has been replying. Maybe PGK can start his own topic on how bad the central interior is for ecosystems and such.

Cheers

SS

[dana]

Sitka,
Scary to think this is what schools are pumpin out nowadays eh? Maybe he can go hug some trees in the newly discovered interior snow forest. :rolleyes:

[Squirrelnuts]

Spoken like a true lumberjack. We shouldn't have to manage wildlife, we should be able to manage habitat and hunters. The entire landscape has changed. Ecosystems don't exist anymore. And no, I will not blame a bug whose path of destruction was wholly created by intensive fire suppression by forestry interests throughout the last 100 years!! The forest industry has noone to blame but themselves for the beetle. And now since the only logical solution (at least to the $$$$$$ lovers in the forest industry) was to burn it or cut it, we have massive tracts of totally altered land that may not even be recoverable. Ridiculous.

Wow. That's a whole lot of ignorance stuffed into one short paragraph.

[BCrams]

Wow. That's a whole lot of ignorance stuffed into one short paragraph.

X 2 .......

[358mag]

More like an average of 110 spike/forks per year, which are open to everyone.

The 191 LEH tags only allow for 50 moose to be shot. The issue is that we should be shooting 88 moose on LEH. The refusal to increase the LEH tag numbers to meet the 88 moose allocation is the problem. Simple math says 88/50 x 191 = 336 LEH tags are needed. That would provide a lot more opportunity for folks to get out there moose hunting.

Furthermore, the manager has allocated only 84 moose to residents and given the 4 we should have received to the G/Os, which is contrary to the 85/15 split dictated by the allocation policy on region 8 moose.
Sounds like the theres a lot of lousy resident hunters if it take 191 LEH tags to get 50 moose!!!!!!!!

[Gateholio]

Sounds like the theres a lot of lousy resident hunters if it take 191 LEH tags to get 50 moose!!!!!!!!

Mot likely less than 100 actually went hunting.

[6616]

Sounds like the theres a lot of lousy resident hunters if it take 191 LEH tags to get 50 moose!!!!!!!!

"lousy".........?????

[born2hunt]

Whats ridiculous??????
You say this like you've known, and seen this, all coming for a long time.
You must be so wise beyond your years! :roll:
Hindsight is always 20/20!

Burn it, or cut it.... you have a better idea???

Unrecoverable???? Where does this idea even come from???
xxxxxxxx 2

[elkdom]

Sounds like the theres a lot of lousy resident hunters if it take 191 LEH tags to get 50 moose!!!!!!!!

lousy?? 191 LEH tags and 50 moose harvested sounds pretty good odds to me!

over 25% success based on tag availability!

many ares with moose GOS only produce 7 to 10 % hunter success annually,,

many other ares with GOS moose seasons only show 3 to 5 % returns per hunter,,

25% is dam good

[xtremearchery]

Hello All!

Just to add a little more gas!

We have been battling this issue since 2007!
BCWF filled for intervener status to go against the RHABC with our case before the Human Rights tribunal that states the LEH system favors foreign hunters over resident hunters. The other funny thing about this is the BCWF and the GOABC were the only ones at the table with the government that negotiated the new allocation policy and they all agreed on it. Where was Mr. Springer? Maybe he was told the same as we were here that the clubs had no say and the few people on the allocation committee would make all the decisions and then when it was agreed upon it may go to the local clubs. Pretty sad that these Federations are suppose to be there to fight for our rights as resident hunters!

We here at RHABC will fight for the rights and freedoms of BC resident hunters! We will be your voice. www.RHABC.org (http://www.RHABC.org)

[GoatGuy]

Sounds like the theres a lot of lousy resident hunters if it take 191 LEH tags to get 50 moose!!!!!!!!

Most of them probably went hunting (~90%) but didn't harvest, part of hunting, right?
Also most of them would have been shared authorizations so right away we know the success rate is going to be cut right back. So really when all is said and done you're going to have a success rate of around 40% - pretty high actually.

This is good, at least in a sense, that some people don't fill their tags. That means far more people can actually go out hunting while keeping the harvest sustainable. That's echoed with the concept of shared tags. So instead of never getting a moose LEH in Region 8 ever, a person can get 1 or 2 in their lifetime. (whoopdeedoo!)


It's kinda like comparing a 3/4 curl LEH to an any ram hunt. Success rates go down and the number of tags go way up so we end up letting more people go hunting. Otherwise the chances are most hunters who apply will never ever get to go (unless you're lucky - REALLY LUCKY).

On the flip side we could look at the non-resident success rates in Region 8. They average 38% so about the same. The difference is outfitter's can take as many clients as they want and can book to shoot their moose -resident's can't. That and the manager doesn't say OK I'm gonna give you a quota of 10 to shoot your 20 moose. I'm sure that would go over well. ;)


By the way residents harvested around 60 immy in 2007, not 200. :biggrin:

[6616]

Sounds like the theres a lot of lousy resident hunters if it take 191 LEH tags to get 50 moose!!!!!!!!

Just looked up, Region 4 non-resident target harvest = 29 moose. 2007 annual quota = 66, 5 year quota = 330, annual quota with guideline = 99.

2008 NR quota was 109, 2009 NR quota proposed 104...!

100 non-resident hunters to kill 29 moose, sounds like there's a few lousy guide-outfitters around as well.

[GoatGuy]

Hello All!

Just to add a little more gas!

We have been battling this issue since 2007!
BCWF filled for intervener status to go against the RHABC with our case before the Human Rights tribunal that states the LEH system favors foreign hunters over resident hunters. The other funny thing about this is the BCWF and the GOABC were the only ones at the table with the government that negotiated the new allocation policy and they all agreed on it. Where was Mr. Springer? Maybe he was told the same as we were here that the clubs had no say and the few people on the allocation committee would make all the decisions and then when it was agreed upon it may go to the local clubs. Pretty sad that these Federations are suppose to be there to fight for our rights as resident hunters!

We here at RHABC will fight for the rights and freedoms of BC resident hunters! We will be your voice. www.RHABC.org (http://www.RHABC.org)



Here's a link to that HRT decision

http://www.bchrt.bc.ca/decisions/default.htm

Great idea but I'd suggest reading the Code or hiring a lawyer from now on.

[BCrams]

Quicker link so you don't have to search:

http://www.bchrt.bc.ca/decisions/2009/pdf/feb/72_Bishop_obo_Resident_Hunters_Association_of_BC_v _BC_(Ministry_of_Environment)_(No_2)_2009_BCHRT_72 .pdf

[Fisher-Dude]

Sounds like the theres a lot of lousy resident hunters if it take 191 LEH tags to get 50 moose!!!!!!!!

Most of the tags issued are November tags - good frikken luck when those rutted out bulls are sleeping, eating, and drinking in a thick alder patch. 116 of 191 are late hunts (61%). Sounds like the conspiracy theory runs even deeper. :icon_frow

[mark]

Most of the tags issued are November tags - good frikken luck when those rutted out bulls are sleeping, eating, and drinking in a thick alder patch. 116 of 191 are late hunts (61%). Sounds like the conspiracy theory runs even deeper. :icon_frow

Not to mention, that for residents in the south, if you only get to go moose hunting once every 20 years, you might not be naturally good at it!
Id bet that at least 1/2 of the people that get southern region moose draws have never hunted moose before.
Guides are supposed to be pro's, do it all the time, every year, know where all the game is?????

[358mag]

Not to mention, that for residents in the south, if you only get to go moose hunting once every 20 years, you might not be naturally good at it!
Id bet that at least 1/2 of the people that get southern region moose draws have never hunted moose before.
Guides are supposed to be pro's, do it all the time, every year, know where all the game is?????
So BCWF wants to go after the GO's because there better hunters or ??
Maybe BCWF should put on a clinic on how to hunt moose in Region 8 ,been putting in for 20+ years for a moose tag too in Region 8 with no luck ,so is the problem with the LEH system or the allocations ??

[GoatGuy]

So BCWF wants to go after the GO's because there better hunters or ??
Maybe BCWF should put on a clinic on how to hunt moose in Region 8 ,been putting in for 20+ years for a moose tag too in Region 8 with no luck ,so is the problem with the LEH system or the allocations ??

The manager not letting go enough tags. The ways things are going you wouldn't get drawn regardless of the system.

Really what he should be doing is cutting the AAH back if he wants to maintain his bull:cow ratio but that would mean the non-res quota gets cut in half.

Oh the politics of it all.

[bridger]

So BCWF wants to go after the GO's because there better hunters or ??
Maybe BCWF should put on a clinic on how to hunt moose in Region 8 ,been putting in for 20+ years for a moose tag too in Region 8 with no luck ,so is the problem with the LEH system or the allocations ??


maybe you should look at your hole card. you are obvioulsy a guide outffiter or perhaps an uniformed resident hunter. if you are a guide there probably is little hope in getting you to recognize the inequities in our leh system and therefore your opinion is biased and should be taken with a grain of salt. there are lots of really compentant resident hunters that can never get a chance to go moose hunting in region 4\8. on the other hand all a guy from texas has to do is pay the ransom and viiola he has a moose. if you are an outfitter/assistant guide you should have the integral fortitude to admit that you are so everyone on the site has a better understanding of the reasons behind your comments.

[Sitkaspruce]

In the guide area I work in, we lost 2 bulls and a cow moose tag, along with one grizz tag. I personally do not care, as most of the area is GOS, just a small part is in the LEH area. What pi$$'s me off is that the LEH for residents actually went down by 15 draws last year. The explanation was that the over all moose #'s were down so they reduced the authorizations as well. When asked why the G/O's, including the one I work for, were not reduced, the reply was that it would take a lot of discussion and meeting, in VICTORIA, to get the G/O's to reduce their harvest #'s, but with the residents, the area manager can make that decission based on the bio's recommendation's. Total # of authorizations lost by the the three G/O's was, IIRC, 8. This was supposed to be added to the LEH for the MU, but was not. So in theory we lost 23 tags last year.:???:

The area I guide in has 12 bull and 3 cow/calf authorizations. The MU has ~ 125 bull and 20 cow LEH. Not sure what the other two G/O's have for authorizations, but I believe it totals 35 bulls and 20 cows between them. They do not have a GOS so they are on a quota per year.

We really need to get a strong voice in Victoria to counter this G/O stuff and get every one back to the table and re look at the whole hunting system in BC. Residents need to come first, after all it is we, the resident, who are paying for the DAMN OLYMPICS....

Cheers

SS

[358mag]

maybe you should look at your hole card. you are obvioulsy a guide outffiter or perhaps an uniformed resident hunter. if you are a guide there probably is little hope in getting you to recognize the inequities in our leh system and therefore your opinion is biased and should be taken with a grain of salt. there are lots of really compentant resident hunters that can never get a chance to go moose hunting in region 4\8. on the other hand all a guy from texas has to do is pay the ransom and viiola he has a moose. if you are an outfitter/assistant guide you should have the integral fortitude to admit that you are so everyone on the site has a better understanding of the reasons behind your comments.
Sorry to dissapoint you but iam not a guide outfitter or work for one, but I have been a member of BCWF for over 25 years have been at many allocation meetings and it seens to me in the last 5 years that its just a big pissing contest with all the BS thats going on at the table betwen all partys .
Maybe someday I will be able to afford go for a Dall sheep - moose-caribou hunt in the NWT or Yukon just hope the locals dont get all upset and call me a rich BC resident.Or is it Ok to go out of province to hunt or fish but not OK for anyone else to come here to hunt or fish ??

[GoatGuy]

Sorry to dissapoint you but iam not a guide outfitter or work for one, but I have been a member of BCWF for over 25 years have been at many allocation meetings and it seens to me in the last 5 years that its just a big pissing contest with all the BS thats going on at the table betwen all partys .
Maybe someday I will be able to afford go for a Dall sheep - moose-caribou hunt in the NWT or Yukon just hope the locals dont get all upset and call me a rich BC resident.Or is it Ok to go out of province to hunt or fish but not OK for anyone else to come here to hunt or fish ??

The policy's pretty clear, you know that.

Why is it so tough to just have it done?

[Fisher-Dude]

So BCWF wants to go after the GO's because there better hunters or ??
Maybe BCWF should put on a clinic on how to hunt moose in Region 8 ,been putting in for 20+ years for a moose tag too in Region 8 with no luck ,so is the problem with the LEH system or the allocations ??

The BCWF aren't flying around in planes and radioing the location of the bulls to the fat-assed Yank sitting in the truck either.

Region 8 used to be 2 point or BIGGER bulls GOS for decades with twice the hunters that we have now, with no conservation concern. Locals did quite well, as did out of towners. Unfortunately, most of those moose hunters don't hunt anymore. The remaining ones look for scraps to fall from the AAH. Why do people think there are so few moose now despite it being LEH and spike/fork with half the hunters? Makes no sense - somebody's f'in with us. :mad:

[6616]

In the guide area I work in, we lost 2 bulls and a cow moose tag, along with one grizz tag. I personally do not care, as most of the area is GOS, just a small part is in the LEH area. What pi$$'s me off is that the LEH for residents actually went down by 15 draws last year. The explanation was that the over all moose #'s were down so they reduced the authorizations as well. When asked why the G/O's, including the one I work for, were not reduced, the reply was that it would take a lot of discussion and meeting, in VICTORIA, to get the G/O's to reduce their harvest #'s, but with the residents, the area manager can make that decission based on the bio's recommendation's. Total # of authorizations lost by the the three G/O's was, IIRC, 8. This was supposed to be added to the LEH for the MU, but was not. So in theory we lost 23 tags last year.:???:

The area I guide in has 12 bull and 3 cow/calf authorizations. The MU has ~ 125 bull and 20 cow LEH. Not sure what the other two G/O's have for authorizations, but I believe it totals 35 bulls and 20 cows between them. They do not have a GOS so they are on a quota per year.

We really need to get a strong voice in Victoria to counter this G/O stuff and get every one back to the table and re look at the whole hunting system in BC. Residents need to come first, after all it is we, the resident, who are paying for the DAMN OLYMPICS....

Cheers

SS


By the way Ken,,,,,, you're fired......

Sorry Sitkaspruce, I know it's a bad joke, just couldn't resist.

[Deadshot]

Maybe someday I will be able to afford go for a Dall sheep - moose-caribou hunt in the NWT or Yukon just hope the locals dont get all upset and call me a rich BC resident.Or is it Ok to go out of province to hunt or fish but not OK for anyone else to come here to hunt or fish ??
Don't get it. Why not just hunt them here in beautiful B.C.
Or are YOU a lousy hunter!:biggrin:

[358mag]

The BCWF aren't flying around in planes and radioing the location of the bulls to the fat-assed Yank sitting in the truck either.

Region 8 used to be 2 point or BIGGER bulls GOS for decades with twice the hunters that we have now, with no conservation concern. Locals did quite well, as did out of towners. Unfortunately, most of those moose hunters don't hunt anymore. The remaining ones look for scraps to fall from the AAH. Why do people think there are so few moose now despite it being LEH and spike/fork with half the hunters? Makes no sense - somebody's f'in with us. :mad:
yes early 80's GOS for 2 point or better bull moose everytime you went out it seems like you got to see moose but then there was a lot less logging not everyone had a quad or a 4wd and if i remeber it was only a 2-3 week long season and a lot less pressure .Now go for a drive up in east side of OK lake camps everywere ,quad's driving up+down every road . Seems like everyone wants to shoot a moose but not everyone ways to get off there quads and hunt them, there still out there just takes a bit more effort in finding them. Maybe this year with get a LEH tag !!!! and will get to pop a primer on Mr Jughead

[Fisher-Dude]

yes early 80's GOS for 2 point or better bull moose everytime you went out it seems like you got to see moose but then there was a lot less logging not everyone had a quad or a 4wd and if i remeber it was only a 2-3 week long season and a lot less pressure .Now go for a drive up in east side of OK lake camps everywere ,quad's driving up+down every road . Seems like everyone wants to shoot a moose but not everyone ways to get off there quads and hunt them, there still out there just takes a bit more effort in finding them. Maybe this year with get a LEH tag !!!! and will get to pop a primer on Mr Jughead

There was no moose season on the east side in the 80s. Maybe your compass is broken Skip? :biggrin:

[GoatGuy]

yes early 80's GOS for 2 point or better bull moose everytime you went out it seems like you got to see moose but then there was a lot less logging not everyone had a quad or a 4wd and if i remeber it was only a 2-3 week long season and a lot less pressure .Now go for a drive up in east side of OK lake camps everywere ,quad's driving up+down every road . Seems like everyone wants to shoot a moose but not everyone ways to get off there quads and hunt them, there still out there just takes a bit more effort in finding them. Maybe this year with get a LEH tag !!!! and will get to pop a primer on Mr Jughead

Leaves more room in the bush for the rest of us. :grin:

[358mag]

Don't get it. Why not just hunt them here in beautiful B.C.
Or are YOU a lousy hunter!:biggrin:
Maybe or Maybe not that not for you to deside just my Taxidermist to deside
Cheers

[358mag]

Leaves more room in the bush for the rest of us. :grin:
just dont drive over my campfire !!!!!!!

[358mag]

There was no moose season on the east side in the 80s. Maybe your compass is broken Skip? :biggrin:
wrong have to dig up the reg's early 80's there was a GOS for 2 point or better bull moose use to start 20 Sep and run into 1 week of Oct the 201 look like Port Man Bridge at rush hour

[Fisher-Dude]

wrong have to dig up the reg's early 80's there was a GOS for 2 point or better bull moose use to start 20 Sep and run into 1 week of Oct the 201 look like Port Man Bridge at rush hour

Not in the early 80s. Harvest for 8-10:

1981 0
1982 0
1983 3
1984 0
1985 3
1986 0
1987 0
1988 0
1989 0


8-12:

1981 0
1982 0
1983 0
1984 2
1985 0
1986 3
1987 0
1988 0
1989 0

[boxhitch]

Not in the early 80s. Go easy, the 70's were rough on some of us.

Maybe your compass is broken Skip? :biggrin:

[elkdom]

wrong have to dig up the reg's early 80's there was a GOS for 2 point or better bull moose use to start 20 Sep and run into 1 week of Oct the 201 look like Port Man Bridge at rush hour
.................................................. ..................................................

Yah! its true! BC Regs 1982-83

reg 8, "any" bull moose sept 10 to sept 26, zones 4,5,6,7,8,11,13,23,24,25,,,
then open same zones again oct15- oct 31

region 3, "any" bull moose sept 22 - nov 09
zones40 - 46 bulls sept 22 - nov21
moose cow or calf nov 06 -nov 09
cow and calf zones 40 -46, nov 06 - nov 21


ALL GOS moose season !

[Fisher-Dude]

.................................................. ..................................................

Yah! its true! BC Regs 1982-83

reg 8, any bull moose sept 10 to sept 26, zones 4,5,6,7,8,11,13,23,24,25,,,
then open same zones again oct15- oct 31

region 3, bull moose sept 22 - nov 09
zones40 - 46 bulls sept 22 - nov21
moose cow or calf nov 06 -nov 09
cow and calf zones 40 -46, nov 06 - nov 21


ALL GOS moose season !

Those region 8 seasons are all west side and northern MUs, NOT east side! East side 201 area is 8-10 and 8-12, and some in 8-09. Thanks elkdum for proving my point (and my memory).

[elkdom]

Those region 8 seasons are all west side and northern MUs, NOT east side! East side 201 area is 8-10 and 8-12, and some in 8-09. Thanks elkdum for proving my point (and my memory).
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,

yeh, and in 1982 region 8 had a 2 month GOS bull elk season 3 points or better, for zones 1,12,9,10, and 6,7,5,and 4

and a GOS for grizz 8-13,8-14 and 8-15, apr 01 till june 15

[Fisher-Dude]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,

yeh, and in 1982 region 8 had a 2 month GOS bull elk season 3 points or better, for zones 1,12,9,10, and 6,7,5,and 4

and a GOS for grizz 8-13,8-14 and 8-15, apr 01 till june 15

The good ol' days. :cry:

What were the deer seasons? Any buck Sep 10 - Nov 15 MD, Any buck Sep 10 - Nov 30 WT?

[Sitkaspruce]

By the way Ken,,,,,, you're fired......

Sorry Sitkaspruce, I know it's a bad joke, just couldn't resist.

LMAO!!!!!:biggrin:

I was kind of wondering when that might happen!!!!!:-D

Damn, now I will have to go guide for fish to make up my hunting fund.;-):tongue:

I have talked to the guide boss and let him know how I feel...... he already know how I feel and understands where I am coming from. At least he lives and works in BC and is from this province. I can call a 250 # and talk to him.


Cheers

SS

[boxhitch]

Moose, schmoose.
When are the Bighorn numbers going to be sorted out ? No current GOS

[elkdom]

The good ol' days. :cry:

What were the deer seasons? Any buck Sep 10 - Nov 15 MD, Any buck Sep 10 - Nov 30 WT?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,
GOS deer limit is 2, one of each,
GOS archery ,MD anysex,sept 3 to 9 , the any bucks sept 10 to oct 18 wet portions, central and north any MD buck nov 16 - nov 30


GOS all bucks, any buck MD and W tails sept 10 until nov 15

except reg 8-03 had 4 rules, shorter season for GOS

[6616]

. I can call a 250 # and talk to him.

That's one positive anyway...

[358mag]

Go easy, the 70's were rough on some of us.
Rough hell yeh !!!!!!!!!! the best part was not remebering them !!!!but all them young dudes out there wouldnt have a idea what were talking about right
Didnt even have a compass back then just had to remeber what side the green stuff was growing on the spruce tree

[Fisher-Dude]

Rough hell yeh !!!!!!!!!! the best part was not remebering them !!!!but all them young dudes out there wouldnt have a idea what were talking about right
Didnt even have a compass back then just had to remeber what side the green stuff was growing on the spruce tree

LOL! Anyway, there was no GOS up the 201 in the 80s. I remember being all happy when they said they were gonna let out a few LEHs in 8-10 and 8-12, applied for a few years, then realized that 35:1 meant I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting drawn.

I just got 2007 region 8 resident moose harvest stats today:

Immies: just over 60
Matures on 191 LEHs: just over 50 (I'm reading them off a graph).

That is piss-poor, considering our LEH mature AAH is 88 (bio says 84 and gives the GOs an extra 4 of our moose).

[GoatGuy]

just dont drive over my campfire !!!!!!!

Don't put it in the middle of the road! The truest sense of a road hunter. :lol:

[GoatGuy]

LOL! Anyway, there was no GOS up the 201 in the 80s. I remember being all happy when they said they were gonna let out a few LEHs in 8-10 and 8-12, applied for a few years, then realized that 35:1 meant I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting drawn.

I just got 2007 region 8 resident moose harvest stats today:

Immies: just over 60
Matures on 191 LEHs: just over 50 (I'm reading them off a graph).

That is piss-poor, considering our LEH mature AAH is 88 (bio says 84 and gives the GOs an extra 4 of our moose).

Old man got the LEH in 8-12 first year they had it. Set up in one of the WT spots and the bull was spotted at first light down a few minutes later.

Hasn't had a moose LEH since - that was in 1991 or 1992 I believe. Just awesome.

[6616]

Old man got the LEH in 8-12 first year they had it. Set up in one of the WT spots and the bull was spotted at first light down a few minutes later.

Hasn't had a moose LEH since - that was in 1991 or 1992 I believe. Just awesome.

That's too long to wait between tags. I got one in 1991, first year on LEH, got my second one in 2007 as part of a group hunt, odds are I'll be about 85 when I get my next one...!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

That's too long to wait between tags. I got one in 1991, first year on LEH, got my second one in 2007 as part of a group hunt, odds are I'll be about 85 when I get my next one...!


There's always 4-40, Andy:lol:. Of course it's outside the rut....for conservation sakes:?.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

That's too long to wait between tags. I got one in 1991, first year on LEH, got my second one in 2007 as part of a group hunt, odds are I'll be about 85 when I get my next one...!

Wasn't the road into that spot washed out as well?

hahahahaha.

[GoatGuy]

There's always 4-40, Andy:lol:. Of course it's outside the rut....for conservation sakes:?.

SSS

I think about the only moose sign you're going to find in that country now is hair in and amongst wolf scat.

[Micky Finn]

Cariboo Chilcotin Regional Wildlife Association (BC Wildlife Federation - Region 5)


PRESS RELEASE

Date: April 13, 2009

For Immediate Release

New Mule Deer regulations for the Cariboo/Chilcotin announced last Monday signals a shift towards fewer opportunities for BC residents to hunt for food and more options for trophy hunting.

Despite increasing Mule Deer populations in the Cariboo/Chilcotin that are causing a growing number of accidents on our highways and conflicts on agricultural land, the recently announced new harvesting regime is predicted to both reduce the harvest and shift it away from a food source for residents towards trophies for rich foreign tourists.

The Mule Deer regulations announced last week at the Provincial Hunting Regulations Review Committee and reported to have been signed off by the Minister of Environment, will take effect for the 2009 hunting season. Under the new changes resident’s hunters will see the following seasons this year. Sept 1st-30th - 4 point buck or Larger
October 1st-31st - Any buck
Nov 1st-10th - 4 Point buck or larger
Nov 11th-20th - No Open Season
Nov 21st -30th - 4 Point buck or Larger
Bag limit is 1 Buck

Up until 2008 residents of BC were allowed to hunt Mule Deer between September 1 and November 30 and were allowed to harvest two deer. The only restrictions during this period were four point buck or larger seasons between September 1st to 9th and November 21st to the 30th.

“These are the most restrictive Mule Deer regulations we have ever seen in the Cariboo and would seem to be custom designed to discourage BC residents from harvesting deer for food and combined with the fact that all Moose are on Limited Entry Hunting, leave the bush empty so that rich tourists can have a greater opportunity for a ‘Quality Hunt” and kill a Trophy Buck” says Quesnel resident and BC Wildlife Federation Vice-President Michael Fowler.

“Non-Residents must employ the services of a Guide-Outfitter and normally are only interested in taking home an impressive set of antlers to hang on the wall. Although provincial regulations ensure that the meat is removed to a processing facility, it will no longer be going into the freezers of ordinary BC residents.”

The membership of the BCWF sees this as one more indication of a government moving away from their promise to use the North American Wildlife Model of managing wildlife based on science to managing wildlife for political reasons. This was been recently indicated by the gutting of the Ministry of Environment’s budget. This has seriously curbed the Ministry’s ability to conduct proper species inventories and enforcement. Another example was the Government’s recent acceptance a recommendation from American environmental groups and First Nations in the Central Coast Land and Resources Management Plan to develop three Grizzly Bear Management Areas despite the advice of independent scientists that for biological reasons only one would be necessary.

The Government also agreed to limit resident harvest of Black Bears on the Queen Charlotte Islands to appease First Nations who want end Trophy Bear Hunting. It is rather ironic that the government would be attempting to create a Trophy hunt for non-residents in the Cariboo while limiting resident harvest on the QCI because of First Nations objections to an existing Trophy hunt by non-residents.

[6616]

There's always 4-40, Andy:lol:. Of course it's outside the rut....for conservation sakes:?.

SSS

Even though the odds may be a little better 4-40 is on LEH as well. I used to like 4-37 before the roads all washed out.

[6616]

Wasn't the road into that spot washed out as well?

hahahahaha.

Very tough to get into 4-40 or 4-37 now. West Columbia FSR washed out in several places, Bush River FSR closed and gated for public safety reasons.

[6616]

I think about the only moose sign you're going to find in that country now is hair in and amongst wolf scat.

That's pretty much correct.

[6616]

For Immediate Release



The BC Wildlife Federation Questions:

Does Resident Hunter Priority Truly Exist?
Vancouver. The BC Wildlife Federation’s 30,000 plus members believe resident hunters’ ability to access the outdoors, hunt and harvest wildlife, has been abandoned over the past 25 years in favour of wealthy, non-resident hunters.

Wildlife in British Columbia is supposed to be managed based on the principles of conservation first, First Nations food, social, and ceremonial second, resident hunters third, and non-resident hunters last. The line that separates resident and non-resident hunters has become nothing more than a blurry shade of grey. The Ministry of Environment’s own Wildlife Allocation Policy which states resident hunters have priority over non-residents has been ignored.

Resident hunters support a healthy wildlife population first recognizing and respecting First Nations needs followed by maximizing resident hunter opportunity and harvest. Over the past 25 years there has been a significant shift by the Ministry of Environment to move to lottery (Limited Entry Hunting) and trophy-style hunting opportunities increasing non-resident hunter numbers and harvest all the while driving resident hunters from their mountains and forests. From 1982-2006 resident hunter numbers plummeted 55% while non-resident hunters increased by 70%. Thousands of resident hunters have simply given up, hoping for a lottery ticket for the opportunity to go hunting in their own Province for too long.

There is no tax for conservation: funding comes directly from hunting and angling licenses, tags and thousands of volunteer hours, the overwhelming majority of which come from resident hunters and anglers.

In some areas over abundant game populations are causing agricultural conflict costing producers and BC taxpayers millions of dollars. These abundant game populations have also resulted in increased highway collisions, raising ICBC premiums of all drivers in the Province. These are the very same areas that have seen increased restrictions placed on residents.

In 2007 the Ministry of Environment created a strategy to increase recruitment and retention of resident hunters. The document that maps out the strategy has 34 recommendations of which only two have been adopted. The document states: “In general, the Fish & Wildlife Branch should pursue a quantity over quality direction in its management of deer, moose and elk.” To date there has been little movement to support this recommendation or this strategy and regulatory changes have often been in direct conflict with this recommendation.

Over the past 25 years resident hunters have been chased from their woods and wildlife by decisions that favour non-residents. Residents want the opportunity to enjoy their Province, hunt and harvest their wildlife and provide for their families. Residents should have priority to their own resource.

For further information contact Patti MacAhonic, Executive Director of the BCWF at 604-291-9990 extension 230 oreThis("ca","bcwf.bc","patti","2",""); click to email us (patti@bcwf.bc.ca)
The BCWF is a province-wide voluntary conservation organization representing over 30,000 British Columbian members whose aims are to protect, enhance and promote the wise use of the environment for the benefit of present and future generations.

The B.C. Wildlife Federation was incorporated under the B.C. Societies Act in 1951 and it became a registered charity in 1969. The Federation is British Columbia's largest and oldest conservation organization.



- 30 -

[ryanpen]

that springer guy is just a whiner!
it clearly said in above article that only a few of the LEH hunters harvest a moose.
what is not said is that most guys out there drive up and down logging roads, trowing beer cans out of the pickups and shooting at signs.
a few may get out and put some effort in their hunt, thus being successful.
a guided hunt puts lots of money into the local area and province.
much more that a half-gased local spends on his weekend moose 'hunt'.


maybe in general, the truth about "road hunters" but true hunters are the exact opposite of your quote!! and the fact of the government taking away my ability to hunt the way i choose to instead of some outfitter telling me how and when to shoot!

even though i dissagree on road hunting, a road hunter (and his buds) will bring in far more to the lacal economy than any single outsider!

first and foremost a "local" should have far more rights than some rich foreigner!

[dana]

I don't know if this guy is indeed from the outfit mentioned, but if he is, he should stick to the bears, he seems to do well on them. Moose, geeze, I'd be embarressed to call the vast majority of those 'trophy' moose. Out of all the photos on their website, a couple damn nice bulls, but the rest, rats! And then theres the mule deer. 1 damn nice buck that looks like an old family photo not a guided hunt. Always good to throw your own photos in on you website to make the Yanks believe you might have bucks of that caliber in your territory. That's a good outfitter trick. Can't say I'd do any different, other than I DO consistantly kill big deer. ;)

[GoatGuy]

BCWF negotiated LEH

To the editor:
Al Springer is correct in stating “B.C. residents are losing out to non-residents…and it’s going to get worse if hunters don’t stand up for their rights.”
It was the B.C. Wildlife Federation that negotiated these allocations—supposedly on behalf of resident hunters—in secret sessions with the government and the Guide Outfitters Association.
This secret process has been going on for many years, and seems to be acceptable to the BCWF.
However, resident hunters will never see a fair outcome until this process is open and includes both other stakeholders and the general public.
Abbie Balcom,
Kimberley

[GoatGuy]

Frustrated with hunt restrictions


To the editor:
I’m a resident hunter in region 8 and have felt the same frustration of having to deal with the local ministry branch in Penticton over wildlife allocation’s between resident and non-resident hunters on many occasions.
We have been trying to address the over harvest of certain species of wildlife by non-resident in this region for a number of years, but with very little results—the ministry is totally pro-outfitter.
We have asked repeatedly for the guide outfitters to be placed on a quota to prevent the overharvest and the imbalance between resident groups but the ministry does little to restrict the region’s guides.
The allocation policy is a joke and is not being followed by ministry branches. Local hunters who are trying to get out to feed there families and enjoy recreational opportunities in British Columbia are getting the short end of the stick.
Once a species has got to a point were it has to be placed on LEH it should be for resident hunters only.
If there are so few animals to go around why is are government trying to make a profit from them?
Paul Schaffrick,
Okanagan Falls

[GoatGuy]

B.C. gov't throws resident hunters to wolves


To the editor:
I was very angry after reading Judie Steeves’ article about lost hunting opportunities for resident hunters in British Columbia (Hunting Allocations Favour Tourists Over Local Hunters, April 8 Capital News).
How can our government throw its residents to the wolves like this?
Just two years ago they came up with a big plan for hunter recruitment, now they are taking hunting opportunities away from us that are trying to fill our freezer with healthy non-steroid, purely organic food for some non B.C./Canadian alien, to harvest a “trophy” class animal and they don’t give a tinkers damn about the main part of hunting—the meat. They are just after antlers and nothing else.
Resident hunters bring in way more revenue for the province than any non residents.
Getting drawn for an LEH (Limited Entry Hunt)tag is very hard at 20:1. That is high odds because lots of residents apply for this limited hunt just to get a chance at a nice meat bull, for food to share with family and friends.
Guides and outfitters are clearly outside there shared quota for this species in this management unit. The numbers in Judie’s article show almost double—from 15 per cent to 28 per cent.
It is stated and is law that residents shall get no less than:
• 60% of all sheep, goat and grizzly bear hunts
• 98% of allocated antlerless hunts and
• 70% of all other category A species (meaning big game species, population or class for which harvest is limited by quota in any portion of a region).
Commercial hunter minimum share is:
• 20% for all allocated sheep and goat hunts; and
• 10% for all other category A species.
In this case of the LEH moose hunt the GOS was allocated 15 per cent and took 28 per cent!
Gordon Campbell and his liberals will not get my vote and I can imagine not too many other hunters votes if this continues. We are being, as resident hunters, sold out by our regional managers by unnecessary antler restrictions on many of our category A species to promote “quality hunting” (quality meaning non-residents hunting antlers and horns).
And resident hunters’ limited amount of LEH tags makes me wonder who (environment minister) Barry Penner and his staff are working for?
It sure seems that they are going to bat for the wrong team.
Jarett & Michelle Callison,
Baldonnel

[GoatGuy]

Will Limited Entry hunt tags resolution re-appear at Wildlife Federation meeting?


To the editor:
Kudos to Al Springer for saying resident hunters need to stand up for their rights (Hunting Allocations Favour Tourists Over Local Hunters, April 8 Capital News).
More than 15 years ago at their annual convention here in Cranbrook, the members of the B.C. Wildlife Federation voted overwhelmingly for a resolution that said whenever an animal goes on Limited Entry, it shall be for residents only.
That was a step in the right direction, but what ever happened to that resolution? Will it reappear at this year’s convention in Sparwood on April 24?
Jean Samis,
Cranbrook

[BCrams]

Had an interesting comment thrown out there regarding LEH hunts by an outfitter in Region 5 today:

Look at what he had to say about the moose hunting to a client with an emphasis on residents being on LEH:



"there is no shortage of moose, and he told me that you can expect to see 45-inch bulls. One real advantage for his clients is that this area is a limited draw for residents, so hunting pressure is at a minimum. Further, Odgers has exclusive access on most of the private ranches in his area."


and huge mountain mule deer (( I thought there were no big bucks in region 5 -- guess he must have forgot to tell the regional :roll:))

Further strengthening the question:

Why are residents being minimized for LEH authorizations??? Just so more 45" bulls can run around in Region 5 for clients to shoot?

The 'split' up moose seasons in Reg 5 aren't helping matters either!

Clearly this outfitter is quite happy with the results (as I am sure others are), as is his client from the states who knows about our limited entry draw.

[bridger]

That sucks! At the BCWF convention in Fernie this past week the board of directors and the delegates overwhelmingly supported the establishment of a resident hunting and fishing proctection fund. Monies paid into this fund will be used soley to protect and enhance our hunting and fishing rights against inequiteis such as this. If we all chip in a $100 bucks residents will again gain priorty in hunting and fishing issues over non residents. The fund will be up runnig very soon. So stay tuned to this site as more info on the way.

[6616]

BCWF negotiated LEH

To the editor:
Al Springer is correct in stating “B.C. residents are losing out to non-residents…and it’s going to get worse if hunters don’t stand up for their rights.”
It was the B.C. Wildlife Federation that negotiated these allocations—supposedly on behalf of resident hunters—in secret sessions with the government and the Guide Outfitters Association.
This secret process has been going on for many years, and seems to be acceptable to the BCWF.
However, resident hunters will never see a fair outcome until this process is open and includes both other stakeholders and the general public.
Abbie Balcom,
Kimberley

I don't know where Mrs Balcom gets her information from, but the truth is no one (including BCWF nor GOABC) negotiates allocation percentages. Allocation percentages are calculated in Victoria based on harvest data from the previous 5 year allocation period and dictated to regions, no negotiating involved. The BCWF does expect MOE to follow these percentages, however that's not always the case, which is very upsetting. Mrs Balcom would be wise to support the BCWF who is trying to correct these inequities rather then criticising them.

The allocation percentages are not a huge issue, the reluctance of MOE to implement the allocation policy is a larger issue. Also in the bigger picture it's not just allocations that has resulted in resident hunters getting screwed, it's more so the LEH system and how regions have administrated or manipulated it for the last 15 to 20 years.

When moose went on LEH in region 4 (1991) the non-resident quota was 15 tags, today it's worked it way up to 109 and it's been as high as 127 in recent years, and that's because of regions messing around with and not following the LEH policy.

It should pi$$ all of us off significantly that the non-resident quota has increased by 5 or 6 times since 1991, while at the same time we residents are waiting 15 to 20 years to get drawn for a chance to hunt moose in Region 4.

[BCRiverBoater]

That sucks! At the BCWF convention in Fernie this past week the board of directors and the delegates overwhelmingly supported the establishment of a resident hunting and fishing proctection fund. Monies paid into this fund will be used soley to protect and enhance our hunting and fishing rights against inequiteis such as this. If we all chip in a $100 bucks residents will again gain priorty in hunting and fishing issues over non residents. The fund will be up runnig very soon. So stay tuned to this site as more info on the way.

Excellent news and great work Rich. I can not wait to see this up and running. Long overdue but now lets get the advantage back in our favor.