region 5 mule deer season for 2009

[bridger]

here are the dates and changes to the mule deer season in region 5

1) bag limit reduced to 1 deer

2) Sept 1-30th 4 point buck or larger

3) Oct 1- 31st any buck

4) Nov 1-10 4 pt buck only or larger

5) Nov 11-20th no open buck season

6) nov 21- 30th 4 pt buck or larger

[knighthunter]

What's #3 mean?

[frenchbar]

What's #3 mean? any buck i beleive

[bridger]

What's #3 mean?


sorry that was a typo it now reads any buck. seems we are going to mostly a trophy buck season in region 5

[oddsix]

is this for sure? where did you find out?

[bridger]

is this for sure? where did you find out?

absolutely true found out from the bcwf. There may be a press release in a day or so. how do you feel about it?

[frenchbar]

mixed for me ,dont mind the nov 11th closure but not crazy about the sept 4 pt only.

[Fisher-Dude]

I can hear the G/Os having a big party from here. I can also hear resident hunters dying off.

19:100 buck to doe ratio, and we decide to cater to less than 10% of BC's hunters. Utter crap.

[Gateholio]

Wow, way to simplify the regulations:roll:

I can't see any real need for these extra restrictions...How come they were giving out 800 doe LEH's to reduce the populations, and now they are trying to limit harvest....

[dana]

Do you think that these seasons will actually help the boys in the Region 5 MOE office kill big bucks like dana's crew??? Highly doubt it. If they couldn't get er done before they ain't gonna get it done now. The same goes with the lazy ass outfitters. They have missed the boat. They should have learned to kill the big boys years ago. Pretty sad when a few weekend warrior DIYers kick ass on the whole GOABC every year.

[GoatGuy]

Welcome to being sold out in favour of trophy hunting non-residents. That's what this is ALL ABOUT!


The buck:doe ratios were great in 2003 and everybody seemed happy but the regulations needed to be changed. Lets move from a 4 pt season Nov 1-30 to an any buck from Nov 1-20. Why? Because we want to increase the trophy component. Does that make any sense at all? I did to somebody.......................................... ........EPIC FAILURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now we've got a problem and we need to fix it. Instead of going back to the old management regime which worked EXTREMELY WELL, we'll just cut the rut out.



Who wants mule deer LEH during the rut? That's seems to be the latest and greatest.

We can start with a 75/25 split between residents and non-residents and work our way down from there. Just like moose, every resident hunter can sit beside the mailbox in July hoping for a mule deer buck tag!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't wait................. and all the while we sit here and wonder why resident hunters are hanging up their guns.



The folks in Region 3 should be worried too. The season closes Nov 10th in Region 8 so you can expect a pile more hunters and harvest. Wouldn't be surprised if your season gets cut next year and I don't think your bio would either.


Here's what happened with moose hunting across the Province and it started in the 80s. Anybody wonder why they don't get a draw????? It sure as hell isn't because the moose aren't there.


This season change has nothing to do with resident hunters or conservation. It has everything about non-resident hunters and keeping residents from harvesting wildlife.

I guess the residents in Region 5 can go out and fill the freezer with a buck in October and a couple wolves in the winter. Any good recipes for dog?

[GoatGuy]

Wow, way to simplify the regulations:roll:

I can't see any real need for these extra restrictions...How come they were giving out 800 doe LEH's to reduce the populations, and now they are trying to limit harvest....

Trophy hunting for non-residents.

[GoatGuy]

Do you think that these seasons will actually help the boys in the Region 5 MOE office kill big bucks like dana's crew??? Highly doubt it. If they couldn't get er done before they ain't gonna get it done now. The same goes with the lazy ass outfitters. They have missed the boat. They should have learned to kill the big boys years ago. Pretty sad when a few weekend warrior DIYers kick ass on the whole GOABC every year.

They've tried changing the seasons 4 times now in the last 15 years.

They want to be able to drive around in their trucks and shoot booners out the window in the grasslands. Don't forget about 'quality of hunt' as well. That means we don't want to see any resident hunters out in the bush.

We're a breath away from LEH on mule deer bucks here.

How does that make you feel?

[bridger]

this whole exercise appears to result from the moe regional manager feeling he has to maintain the viability of the guiding industry at the expense of resident hunting opportunity. they are also talking about doing this in other regions next year. ( 3 & 4) ?

[BlacktailStalker]

I wonder how many more people are going to get nailed poaching...

[dana]

How does it make me feel? Fing Pissed! The fact that the MOE won't get their heads out of their asses and actually do the right thing is a huge piss off. The fact that they are kiss the asses of the the lazy outfitters really burns me. The outfitters in this province have been sleeping while monster mule deer have become the most desired species in North America. We have some of the biggest and baddest bucks on the planet, and the outfitters have missed the mark and can't get the job done. While the outfitters south of the border have killing 'giants' down to a science, the outfitters here don't even know what caliber of bucks are within their territory. They sleep in all summer long instead of getting off their asses and finding monsters which could make them 'big money'. We should not give these lazy *******s a single ounce of respect when it comes to mule deer. They have missed the mark. While they were busy selling small moose hunts to Europeans and horseback goat hunts to the Yanks, they watched the money of monster muleys slip right out of their own hands. They are the only ones to blame for their own pathetic photo galleries of mediocre bucks shot as an 'add on'.

[bridger]

well said. outfitters always seem to want the best of both worlds. fewer resident hunters and big bucks

[dana]

The resident hunters of this province should be fuming to see how the MOE and the bloody LIBERAL government has treated them. At least with the NDP you know you are getting shit on because they don't hide it. The Liberals talk with a forked tongue. Hunter Recruitment and Retention my ass! Tell that to my kid that will now have to fight the same odds for a mule deer hunt as he does for a Kamloops sheep tag. That is where it's going. And what about the Region 2 hunters that are being shut down during the 3 weeks of the 2010 games? Sure looks like Gordo and his cronies are 'for' us don't it?

[PGK]

Mixed emotions. You're losing opportunity, but there's going to be a hell of a lot less pressure on that late season if the bag limit is one. That's good for me, because I like hunting that late season.

[dana]

PGK,
LEH buddy is on the horizon. Do yo think that is good for you? Sure the pressure will be low, because the MOE won't hand out many tags. The Gang and Clearwater will become like the Henries and the Pauns to the Utards. A few great deer will get killed by the lucky lucky few that get drawn. And I betcha even then, it'll only be the hard-core DIYers that will see the success as the outfitters wouldn't know a big buck if it bit them in the ass. When the outfitters still don't kill the big boys, they will whine and suck up and pay off the MOE some more and more LEH seasons will be carved out of pie. Soon, you will be lucky to be hunting deer once in 10 to 20 years. But given they won't change the LEH system, if you don't have that golden horseshoe up your ass, you may never be hunting deer.

[PGK]

Like I said, mixed emotions

[horshur]

A good education is no innoculation against the common vice of men in power.........power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[Dirty]

they are also talking about doing this in other regions next year. ( 3 & 4) ?

It would be a shame to see them do this around the province. Forgive me for ignorance, but why does this benefit the outfitters so much? Is it to generate lots of big bucks so they don't have to work for them?

I find it stupid that there are different biologists saying what should be done for the animals in their region. There should be bios that make the decision for a specific species across the province, at least that way there would be some consistency and hopefully competency.

[GoatGuy]

. Soon, you will be lucky to be hunting deer once in 10 to 20 years. But given they won't change the LEH system, if you don't have that golden horseshoe up your ass, you may never be hunting deer.

Sounds familiar - that's EXACTLY what happened with moose. Compared to GOS province wide we're harvesting 15% less than we were in the early 80s with half of the hunters. Sounds fair to me.

And everybody wants to change the LEH system.

[srupp]

I am no expert on why..however I can see that the trophy deer have become really really scarce...most hunters are glad to kill a 2 point..yes there are still some amazing bucks...but the pressure hass been horrendous IN PLACES..

I still have to sleep on these changes...they may help..but done for all the wrong reasons..

steven:eek:

[GoatGuy]

It would be a shame to see them do this around the province. Forgive me for ignorance, but why does this benefit the outfitters so much? Is it to generate lots of big bucks so they don't have to work for them?

I find it stupid that there are different biologists saying what should be done for the animals in their region. There should be bios that make the decision for a specific species across the province, at least that way there would be some consistency and hopefully competency.


Apparently there aren't enough 'trophy bucks' to sell the hunts and selling hunts comes before filling the freezer.

[elkdom]

sounds as if the BIO's have "resurrected some misguided deer strategy" from the "ANALS" of days gone by in Region 7B,

ANALS!, perfectly describes this type of deer management strategy, not to mention that such a complicated schedule for openings and antler restrictions, you need a Lawyer and 2 Physics along on your deer hunt to interpret the regulations for a mule deer hunt! :rolleyes:

and as for the input for the GO's,:x

I have to agree (dana) pretty much hit the nail on the head! :idea:

[PGK]

So, to noone in particular...is this a result of the bio in bed with the GO, or does the bio actually believe this is the best management plan?

[180grainer]

It might be prudent to wait until the regs come out. Someone posted similar stuff last year about reg changes to the mulie season and they never happened.

[GoatGuy]

I am no expert on why..however I can see that the trophy deer have become really really scarce...most hunters are glad to kill a 2 point..yes there are still some amazing bucks...but the pressure hass been horrendous IN PLACES..

I still have to sleep on these changes...they may help..but done for all the wrong reasons..

steven:eek:

It would have been easy to go back to the old season 4 pt starting Nov 1 and move some of the LEH authorizations out of the rut. Or never changed it in the first place.

Instead we cut the rut hunt right out.

I'm more of a fan of the KISS principle.

[Dirty]

Apparently there aren't enough 'trophy bucks' to sell the hunts and selling hunts comes before filling the freezer.

I understand now, selling out many to benefit the few. I am all for sharing resources and guide-outfitters making a living, but I am not for selling out the majority to benefit the minority.

Aren't wolves a HUGE problem in region 5 right now? I would much rather propose a predator control program than these new regulations.

I think in this case, and more cases to come in the future, we are just going to have to bend over, grab our ankles, and take it. Is there anything we can do as hunters to stop irrational decisions?

[GoatGuy]

It might be prudent to wait until the regs come out. Someone posted similar stuff last year about reg changes to the mulie season and they never happened.

They were squashed last year. This one is in for sure.

[GoatGuy]

I think in this case, and more cases to come in the future, we are just going to have to bend over, grab our ankles, and take it. Is there anything we can do as hunters to stop irrational decisions?

Yes you can.

Start here:

scramble_addr_addr('env.minister', 'bc.ca', 'gov')env.minister@gov.bc.ca


There will be more to come in the next week.

[BlacktailStalker]

Never been much into the politics side of this forum but I find it hard to believe they'd shut 'er down for residents for GO's, no ?

At the end of the day I'm always sure what it comes down to with anything in this province and any other province, country etc is $$

Do GOs bring in more $ or do resident hunters with tags/licenses/expenses etc etc? If mulie numbers really weren't threatened, a guy would think this decision goes against the real reason behind most decisions made in this province; $.

[bridger]

It might be prudent to wait until the regs come out. Someone posted similar stuff last year about reg changes to the mulie season and they never happened.


these regs have been signed off as of today. only a whole lot of us voicing our displeasure in the next few days will stop it.

[Dirty]

Email sent:

"Dana says you are selling out resident hunters for Guide-Outfitters. I agree. Knock it off, because you are making me mad"

Signed Dirty

[Everett]

Longer I live out west the more I think westerners are sheep if this was NS, NB or god forbid PEI the bios name and home address would be published and some pissed off redneck would be on his door step an hour later to convince him that he needed to look out for residents first and it didn't matter how much money the GO's had given him it wasn't enough.
My own exsperiances dealing with goverment types is you get there attention if you call them sunday morning about 9am at home, they than tend to take your point of veiw very seriously. Be polite and record the call.
Its worked for me with ICBC and EI.
So anyone know this guys name and his home address?

[BCrams]

I'm pissed.

This is all about Guide Outfitters and non-resident hunters. Nothing to do with promoting hunting opportunity for resident hunters.

What pisses me off more is ........ why wait until the whole thing is signed off to let the resident hunters know whats happening when its virtually too late. Its BS.

[PGK]

I'm pissed.

This is all about Guide Outfitters and non-resident hunters. Nothing to do with promoting hunting opportunity for resident hunters.

What pisses me off more is ........ why wait until the whole thing is signed off to let the resident hunters know whats happening when its virtually too late. Its BS.

So I ask again


So, to noone in particular...is this a result of the bio in bed with the GO, or does the bio actually believe this is the best management plan?

????????

[bridger]

Never been much into the politics side of this forum but I find it hard to believe they'd shut 'er down for residents for GO's, no ?

At the end of the day I'm always sure what it comes down to with anything in this province and any other province, country etc is $$

Do GOs bring in more $ or do resident hunters with tags/licenses/expenses etc etc? If mulie numbers really weren't threatened, a guy would think this decision goes against the real reason behind most decisions made in this province; $.



I am not against non resident hunting in the province but am a firm believer that we as canadian citizens and residents of bc should have priority when it comes to hunting opportunities. what is happening now has nothing to do with which group brings in the most money (residents generate 12 or 13 times as much money to our province as do non resident hunters) the real issue is that the guides are organized and spend lots of time lobbying in victoria and at the regional level. I have mentioned before on this site that the goabc has set up a non resident hunting preservation fund in which they charge each non resident hunter $125 per year. this generates $750,000 annually which the guides use to lobby against us. they hire their own biologist to write management plans that favor non residents and submit them to regional moe officials. they spend lots of time supporting their cause. The general manager of the guides association told me point blank one time that resident hunters numbers were dropping and soon they would be little need to have any seasons other than trophy seasons. the guides have a plan to place all hunts and manage all species on a quality basis which means trophy hunting and leh for residents. if you are really pissed off join the bcwf and send them a hundred bucks. the only way we will win this battle with the outfitters is to band together as a group and put political pressure on the moe and gov. this issue is not a monetary decision. it is a political decision and political decisions are based on power. if the government thinks the guides have more votes than we do the guides will win. anyone who does not believe that is a dumb son of bitch! a real time politician told me that in victoria. my rant for the night.

[BCrams]

So I ask again



????????

hahahahahahahahahahahaha ......... its been going on for a long time apparently.

[PGK]

hahahahahahahahahahahaha ......... its been going on for a long time apparently.

I'm not asking for your lip, I want some english here, for those of us not in bed with everyone! :???:

[BlacktailStalker]

Bridger; makes sense. Like I said I know little regarding the politics of the resident/GO "war."
Thanks for that info, makes it easy to explain to others.

Resident hunters by far out number them so theres really no excuse at the end of the day except lack of effort/fight on our part.

Email in the works...

I'm a member of BCWF.

[born2hunt]

wdf were been sold the frig out !!!! god damn liberal government holy shit im pissed im lost for words atm , welcome to leh guys its gonna happen now in every mu. well its all about the mighty dollar now.

[Ambush]

[quote=bridger;440885] this generates $750,000 annually which the guides use to lobby against us.

if you are really pissed off join the bcwf and send them a hundred bucks.

it is a political decision and political decisions are based on power. if the government thinks the guides have more votes than we do the guides will win. anyone who does not believe that is a dumb son of bitch!

That about says it all. Money talks. If we want to be listened to, then we're gonna have to pay. A hundred bucks a year is a small investment to insure your hunting future.

Or just keep bitchin' to each other and then cry every time they win.

[born2hunt]

[quote=bridger;440885] this generates $750,000 annually which the guides use to lobby against us.


if you are really pissed off join the bcwf and send them a hundred bucks.

it is a political decision and political decisions are based on power. if the government thinks the guides have more votes than we do the guides will win. anyone who does not believe that is a dumb son of bitch!

That about says it all. Money talks. If we want to be listened to, then we're gonna have to pay. A hundred bucks a year is a small investment to insure your hunting future.

Or just keep bitchin' to each other and then cry every time they win.i am a member btw

[boxhitch]

It would be good to hear the Reg. managers story for this one. It is blatantly absent.
Tough to believe he can get away without a consultation process.

[PGK]

It would be good to hear the Reg. managers story for this one. It is blatantly absent.
Tough to believe he can get away without a consultation process.

This is my problem. All these guys lipping off about how bad this is for them yadda yadda yadda and NOBODY is telling the regional biologist's side of it.

Am I just supposed to assume the regional manager is a dipshit? I'd rather not!

Am I to assume the regional manager is in bed with the guide outfitter? I'd rather not!

Am I to assume BCrams, GoatGuy, FD, Dana, Bridger and everyone else are all playing chicken little to further an agenda I don't know about?

WHAT IS THIS???

[BCrams]

Sounds familiar - that's EXACTLY what happened with moose. Compared to GOS province wide we're harvesting 15% less than we were in the early 80s with half of the hunters. Sounds fair to me.

And everybody wants to change the LEH system.



Soon, you will be lucky to be hunting deer once in 10 to 20 years. But given they won't change the LEH system, if you don't have that golden horseshoe up your ass, you may never be hunting deer.


Wonder how the NIMBY boys in the West Kootenays would feel about having a LEH mule deer hunt of which they'll be very lucky to draw :cool:

If the GO's have any place in BC with an eye open for LEH Trophy Mule Deer...... the West Koots is going to be one of them. Seeing how there's support for LEH trophy elk, there should be no problems getting the LEH mule deer.

[daycort]

Its hard to believe that a regional moe manager, and bio would sell out his fellow residents. I guess the goabc is getting closer to there "Quality Hunting Province" that they have wanted so badly for so many years.

I wonder bridger, if you could post the bio and regional managers name on this thread. I bet you could provide some e-mail address as well.

I have sent a, shall I say stern e-mail to the ministry.

[hunterofthedeer]

i go there for thanksgiving and thats probaly it, so it doesnt bother me. Might make some local "if its brown its down" hunters a bit angry

[leadpillproductions]

hey it still better than our 30 day season up here in 7b

[PGK]

One deer. I guess that means I get to pick between a doe LEH and my favourite late season hunt. Guess their doe harvest is going down by one :???: I can kill a doe here thanks very much.

Anything to do with a decrease in blue grouse is a function of forest harvesting and land use, not hunting, that's for sure.

[6616]

We have a Ministry that at least in some regions places resident priority well below outfitter viability, and it's been going on for a long time. It's time we stopped putting up with it..! Here's some interesting points and in most of these cases conservation of the species is not a concern or justifiaction for the regulation or situation:


Mule deer 4pt antler regulation entire season region 4
Elk 6pt antler regulation entire region 4, 8
Mature bull moose LEH in most of province
Nearly all goats in province on LEH in spite of massive under-use by both residency groups.
Restrictive regulations causing residents to under-utilize allocation in nearly all regions
60% of thinhorn harvest in region 6 taken by non-residents
45% thinhorn harvest in region 7b taken by non-residents
40% of bighorn harvest taken by non-residents in Region 4
400% increase in moose quota for non-residents in regions 4 and 6 since 2000
4pt antler restriction on WTD in Region 7b
GOABC promoting trophy and quality management
GOABC opposing all spike-fork moose seasons
GOABC opposing recruitment/retention strategy for resident hunters
GOABC pressing to put more species on LEH
Overall non-resident allocations betrween 20 and 40% of AAH for non-residents while limited to 10% in most other North American jurisdictions.
10% allocation of antlerless deer, elk, moose hunts for non-residents.
Proliferation of access management that supports outfitters and negativelly impacts residents.How do you like it so far......?

[GoatGuy]

It would be good to hear the Reg. managers story for this one. It is blatantly absent.
Tough to believe he can get away without a consultation process.

The resident hunters in Region 5 have never been properly consulted - they've been told.

That region was supposed to be opened up after moose have recovered when it went LEH.

NEVER HAPPENED

Resident hunters had to get a petition the Ministry to get the immature season going. They didn't properly consult FN.

IT WAS SHUT DOWN

The region created it's own mule deer strategy.

NEVER SUPPORTED BY LOCAL HUNTERS

Resident moose harvest was as high as 3000 and went from 2000 the year before LEH to 1000 post and it's never recovered. Cut by 50% by the stroke of a pen.

Non-resident moose harvest went from 200 to 100 and now it back up between 200 and 250 - HIGHER THAN IT WAS BEFORE LEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Region 5 moose hunter numbers have gone from 12000 to 3000 over the past 25 years!!!!!!!!!


Some of the garbage out of the region

"As a result of the low buck to doe ratios observed in the 1995 and 1997 surveys( 11/100 in 1995, and 17/100 in 1997) changes to the mule deer seasons were made in an attempt to reduce buck harvest and improve overall buck ratios. The G.O.S. season for any bucks was reduced by 20 days and replaced by a 4pt season in November. Although the overall buck ratios did improve between 1997 and 2000( from 17/100 in 1997 to 22/100 in 2000), the proportion of older mature age bucks(class 4) did not improve and declined as a proportion of the total bucks observed. In 2003 further declines in the mature age class component were observed and use of longer 4pt season structure was abandoned in favour of a non selective buck harvest regime more consistent with the Provincial Harvest Strategy.
Crowding problems in some Management units and quality of hunt issues have been raised by some stake holders.In order to achieve recovery of buck to doe ratios to 25/100 we estimate a need to"

The Provincial objective is 20:100 - apparently they get to create their own numbers up there.


This is the public friendly version. In the real world it's about producing big bucks. You'll notice the region jumped ship on the Provincial Strategy and then hoped back on whenever it fit the agenda.

At the end of the day this is all about guys coming here shooting a trophy, loping the head off and taking it home.

This is where it all begins.

[ultramagbob]

Looks like a good plan..just the for the wrong reasons

[igojuone]

What are G/Os and GOABC mean? Don't bother I answer my own question.

[yamadirt 426]

So what does it take for everyone to become a guide. Put pressure on the other guides. Make it very hard for them.

[bridger]

constant and agressive pressure by organzied resident hunters on the government (moe and mla's) will be more immediate and produce faster results.

[one-shot-wonder]

An automated, immediate response I recieved......
Thank you for taking the time to write to me. Due to the volume of
incoming messages, this is an automated response to let you know my
office has received your email. But will anybody even read it:?:

For further information on recent initiatives undertaken by the Ministry
of Environment, please visit our website at www.env.gov.bc.ca or view
our latest Environment Report at:

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/pac/envrep/ (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/pac/envrep/)

Sincerely,

Barry Penner
Minister of Environment

[Everett]

So with an election very soon you would think the BCWF would have a big stick Non resident hunters can't vote but we can. Mayby the BCWF should be endorsing one of the political parties in return for a commitment to end non resident hunting for good. It would be easy to do leave the GO's there territories but change the regs so only Canadian residents can hunt in BC that or raise the cost of a non resident license by $10,000 or so.
No foreign hunters of any sort, that would neuter the GOABC and screw the american owners.
Than we could get rid of the LEH program and point restrictions accross the whole province since we would have the guides allotment to shoot.
Well thats my thoughts

[horshur]

So with an election very soon you would think the BCWF would have a big stick Non resident hunters can't vote but we can. Mayby the BCWF should be endorsing one of the political parties in return for a commitment to end non resident hunting for good. It would be easy to do leave the GO's there territories but change the regs so only Canadian residents can hunt in BC that or raise the cost of a non resident license by $10,000 or so.
No foreign hunters of any sort, that would neuter the GOABC and screw the american owners.
Than we could get rid of the LEH program and point restrictions accross the whole province since we would have the guides allotment to shoot.
Well thats my thoughts


Yeh for the first time in my life I just may Vote NDP not because I like them at all but because maybe a any opposition might rein in some of this sort of bullshit.........

and your above proposal I could easily get behind.


What is the Official position of the FED in regards to GOABC?

seems they(GOAC) took of the gloves alongtime ago?

[igojuone]

It was stated that the GOABC collects $750000/year. At $27.50 the base membership fee for the BCWF we need 27273 new members to match this amount. I'm sure that is not an impossible number so I'll start it off by sending in my $27.50. Only 27272 to go. Forty bucks gets you the BCWF magazine as well.

[Dirty]

constant and agressive pressure by organzied resident hunters on the government (moe and mla's) will be more immediate and produce faster results.

How do we find out the MLA's in the area? Let's get together actually facts that everybody can place in their emails. In addition, things we should say or bring up in the emails. I am less informed than most, but I want to do something to prevent this type of thing from spreading to other regions.

[bridger]

It was stated that the GOABC collects $750000/year. At $27.50 the base membership fee for the BCWF we need 27273 new members to match this amount. I'm sure that is not an impossible number so I'll start it off by sending in my $27.50. Only 27272 to go. Forty bucks gets you the BCWF magazine as well.


way to go lets keep the ball rolling

[Dirty]

way to go lets keep the ball rolling

Does the BCWF actually get money from gun range memberships? I have a BCWF membership from my gun range, (I think), but is it helping the BCWF?

[Gateholio]

How do we find out the MLA's in the area? Let's get together actually facts that everybody can place in their emails. In addition, things we should say or bring up in the emails. I am less informed than most, but I want to do something to prevent this type of thing from spreading to other regions.

And make sure you CC YOUR MLA on this. Get YOUR reps askign questions, and make it clear that YOUR MLA's will be held accountable at voting time.:cool:

[mark]

way to go lets keep the ball rolling

Just an idea, i had here..... off the top of my head, im pretty sure that my 5 best hunting buddies are not BCWF members :icon_frow. (I am, have been for years)
Maybe we should all be kicking these guys in the ass to join up.
Some mentioned a donation of a $100, better to offer to pay yer lazy buddies $40 a year and sign him up to the BCWF as I believe numbers on the list may be more important than money! (numbers = votes to a politician).

While I dont see the reg. 5 changes a tragedy to hunters, (its still more season than most regions have, and wont be a problem to bag a deer there) I hate to see us slowly lose a war to the GO's!!!!

[bridger]

Yeh for the first time in my life I just may Vote NDP not because I like them at all but because maybe a any opposition might rein in some of this sort of bullshit.........

and your above proposal I could easily get behind.


What is the Official position of the FED in regards to GOABC?

seems they(GOAC) took of the gloves alongtime ago?

i can't speak for the Fed but do know that the executive is very unhappy. the convention in Fernie later this month should be interesting

[ruttinbuck]

Rodger Stewart-manager of MOE in region 5 rodger.stewart@gov.bc.ca
Tom Ethier-director for MOE in Victoria tom.ethier@gov.bc.ca
Stewart recommends the changes and Ethier ultimatey makes the decision

[BCrams]

Rodger Stewart-manager of MOE in region 5 rodger.stewart@gov.bc.ca
Tom Ethier-director for MOE in Victoria tom.ethier@gov.bc.ca
Stewart recommends the changes and Ethier ultimatey makes the decision

Make sure you cc a copy to Barry Penner

and....... the whipping boy Deputy Minister

Doug.Konkin@gov.bc.ca if that does not work - call him 250 387-5429 (http://dir.gov.bc.ca/gtds.cgi?esearch=&updateRequest=&view=detailed&sortBy=name&for=people&attribute=telephone&matchMethod=is&searchString=387%2d5429)

[308Lover]

I have to say that ONE deer per hunter is plenty in 5-03, IMHO. (Instead of THREE! (Doe tag, 4 point, any buck) A group of lower mainlanders hunting three weeks (and sending home deer with friends ) can cause quite a dent in a small area.(Been there--but not involved)
New regs will sure increase prssure in October! Camping/hunting madness for sure! COUNT ME OUT!
Now--after all the BS I've read on this post, just do me a favor. WRITE DOWN WHAT YOU THINK WOULD BE A REASONABLE GOS FOR THIS ZONE!
Is that too much to ask?

[huntcoop]

When will we know that this is 100% true and factual? When the regs come out?

Or................

[silvicon]

there are a few whiners on this forum who take every opportunity to vent and accuse GO's to get their way.
just last month, the GO's quotas on moose in region 5 was reduced accross the board in favor of Indians and Wolves!!
the RM and his cronies refuse to control wolves, instead sending out letters lecturing compl. about the value of wolves.
the whole ungulate population in region 5 is under heavy pressure from wolves and indians. the few animals taken by non-resident hunters has no bearing on the whole population or resident hunting ops.

the closure Nov.-11-20 hits GO's very hard, this would be the best time for bookings.
I once ask a RM why he is cutting back GO's quotas.
his reply was:
conservation first, native needs second, resident hunters third and non-resident hunters/GO's last.
here you have it!!

[Fisher-Dude]

I once ask a RM why he is cutting back GO's quotas.
his reply was:
conservation first, native needs second, resident hunters third and non-resident hunters/GO's last.
here you have it!!

That's the provincial management strategy applied to every species. Doesn't matter what you hunt or where you hunt it, that's the governing principle.

However, closer examination of harvest and LEH allocation numbers shows a trend to padding the G/O's share at the expense of residents. That's what has to be changed - bring resident hunters who pay the lion's share towards conservation back into 3rd place, behind the Free Ride FNs and ahead of the trophy hunter aliens.

[tinhorse]

I think that these changes are great. But that is just my opinion...

[tooley]

there are a few whiners on this forum who take every opportunity to vent and accuse GO's to get their way.
just last month, the GO's quotas on moose in region 5 was reduced accross the board in favor of Indians and Wolves!!
the RM and his cronies refuse to control wolves, instead sending out letters lecturing compl. about the value of wolves.
the whole ungulate population in region 5 is under heavy pressure from wolves and indians. the few animals taken by non-resident hunters has no bearing on the whole population or resident hunting ops.

the closure Nov.-11-20 hits GO's very hard, this would be the best time for bookings.
I once ask a RM why he is cutting back GO's quotas.
his reply was:
conservation first, native needs second, resident hunters third and non-resident hunters/GO's last.
here you have it!!


I never liked this Last time I checked natives were (or should be) "resident hunters".

[pitbell]

I think that these changes are great. But that is just my opinion...


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s235/revmyspace2/graphics/Misc/Funny/0_funny_oh_no_you_didnt.gif (http://www.blingcheese.com)

[GoatGuy]

there are a few whiners on this forum who take every opportunity to vent and accuse GO's to get their way.
just last month, the GO's quotas on moose in region 5 was reduced accross the board in favor of Indians and Wolves!!
the RM and his cronies refuse to control wolves, instead sending out letters lecturing compl. about the value of wolves.
the whole ungulate population in region 5 is under heavy pressure from wolves and indians. the few animals taken by non-resident hunters has no bearing on the whole population or resident hunting ops.

the closure Nov.-11-20 hits GO's very hard, this would be the best time for bookings.
I once ask a RM why he is cutting back GO's quotas.
his reply was:
conservation first, native needs second, resident hunters third and non-resident hunters/GO's last.
here you have it!!

Funny, until about 1999 guides got less 10% of the moose harvest in Region 5. Since 1999 they've gotten closer to 20%.

Sounds like a good deal for residents? Residents must really like to share.:eek: If residents still had 90+% we could let another ~600+ people go moose hunting every year in Region 5 alone. It would definitely help the LEH odds.

The non-resident deer harvest is greater than the second buck harvest by residents. Wonder why that got cut if it's so insignificant? If it's such a 'conservation concern' why not cut both the 2nd deer for residents and the guide-outfitter hunt?

The outfitter's should have been cut on moose 10 years ago.

Resident get priority - that's a fact of life. Cope with it.

[6616]

While Ralph Archibald and Doug Konkin are new to their posts and should be given a chance, remember that how we got into this crappy situation in the first place was by dealing with buearocrats. At this point I would also cc the Minister and your MLA, it might be time to go beyond just providing buearocratic input, that stratgey has not always served us well in the past. Also letters to the editors in local papers would be a good idea.

[blackbart]

I may end up being the target for a lynching by providing the following commentary, if so bring it on.

In your letters to your respective MLA's and MOE Regional Managers perhaps consider requesting / including the following:
- Gov't should base wildlife management decisions on sound science and not political motives.
- Gov't should be prepared to fund the sound science required to make informed decisions. It is my understanding that the MOE did not have any funding to complete region 5 Mule Deer census flights in 2008. As such the proposed changes to the hunting regulations are coming from data collected in 2007. We all have opinions on the quality of data that has been historically collected, but at least some data is better than none.
- State that you are supportive of sound wildlife management and have healthy wildlife populations as your highest priority.
- Ask if there is any format available for donating your time or resources to habitat enhancement activities that would help to protect hunting opportunities. I realize that many clubs already conduct this, but see value in putting up your time where your mouth (or pen) is.
- Try to refrain from complaining about allocation priorities. It is better to provide solutions rather than complaints. This may be hard for some members to do, but it has been my experience that complaining about other groups will not result in your voice being heard.
- Ask if any other management options were considered such as increased vehicle closures? If they answer that resources do not allow for enforcement then ask why do they not adequately fund wildlife management?
- Ask your MLA how much money is being spent in region 5 to compensate farmers for deer related crop damage versus how much money is being spent on managing the provincial resource in ways that promote hunting opportunities?
- Ask for some formal commitment to re-instating the previous hunting opportunities if target levels are met in the future.

[jackpine]

i can't believe the nonsense that i'm hearing.it is not rocket science.if the region 5 buck population is in trouble than close the oct. any buck season.last time i checked,71% of the annual buck harvest in region 5 is three point or less.closing the buck hunt for 10 days in november is not going to accomplish much in the big picture,aside from putting additional pressure on the region 3 four point season,which will ultimately destroy the already declining buck population

[Fisher-Dude]

Here is the guide/outfitters' proposal for region 5 mule deer for 2007. Note that with LEH, allocation starts at 75%/25% (ie the GOs will get 25% of the harvest as soon as LEH starts). Pay special attention to the last line in their proposal.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e70/Fisher-Dude/12-21CCGOAProposal-1.jpg

[PGK]

Name names! Who wrote that!

[dana]

Time to Fight Fire With Fire. As many of you know I am a very respected member of Monster Muleys.com. A site where the bulk of trophy mule deer hunters across the West like to hang out. It is also a place where many research hunts with outfitters.

Here a thread I just posted, titled, Don't Book For BC Mule Deer.


For 7 years I’ve promoted British Columbia on these forums. Since non-resident aliens are required to hunt with a licenced guide and outfitter in BC, I’ve responded to many threads and PM’s asking advice on BC outfitters. I’ve directed people to the Guides Outfitters Association of BC (GOABC) to start their research. The problem has always been that the vast majority of outfitters in this province don’t have a clue how to hunt monster muleys. For the most part, outfitters within this province have been sleeping and ignored the fact that trophy mule deer have become the most desired hunt within North America. While they have been busy selling their small ‘southern’ moose that they try to pass off as Shiras or their horseback mountain goat hunts, trophy mule deer have been ignored and sold as a ‘add on’ in combo hunts. The vast majority of the bucks killed by the GOABC every year are just plain dinks. Many are lucky to break the 160 mark. The odd buck gets killed that can have the tape stretched to squeak out 180. The true monsters that live in this province, the 200+ bucks, are rarely, if ever killed.


The pictures that I have shared of my friends, my family and my success’ might give the impression that British Columbia is a trophy mule deer sleeper province, and in my opinion, that is correct. BC can hold it’s own against some of the best producing states. But the one thing I’ve come to notice, while magazines like Muley Crazy highlight outfitter success’ in other parts of North America, BC falls flat on its face. It is instead the DIY regular joe blow hunter that gets the job done within this province. It is almost embarrassing to know that the success I’ve personally had in the last 6 years, beats the success that the entire GOABC has had in the last 10 years. While my friends and I are hitting the high country all summer long or glassing the winter range for the next target, picking up sheds to know what the potential in the area is, essentially scouting our asses off, the GOABC are sleeping in and don’t have a clue what caliber of bucks live within their territories.


BC is a DIYer’s paradise. Currently, resident hunters can hunt GOS mule deer for 3 months a year with OTC tags and a provincial bag limit of 3 deer a year. We are one of the only jurisdictions where mule deer numbers are very strong and increasing. We do not have a conservation concern. For the most part, we do not manage for trophy mule deer, with the exception of 4 point or better seasons during the rut. The bulk of the hunters within this province are meat hunters not trophy hunters. Currently, we only have about 80 thousand hunters within this huge province. That number has been steadily declining from a high of about 180 thousand in the early 80’s. If the numbers continue to drop, we could see the loss of hunting rights altogether given the liberal granola cruncher mindset of many of BC’s voters.


So this is what brings me to the point of this thread. Currently the GOABC has been putting the pressure on the Ministry of Environment to push for exclusive trophy mule deer only seasons and want mule deer across the province to be put on Limited Entry. They think this somehow will increase their success at selling you bigger deer. It seems they have the Ministry in their pocket and it looks like the resident hunter is going to get the shaft. Will this help them kill more big bucks? Nope, because they still are lame ass hunters when it comes to trophy mule deer. They figure if they eliminate the resident’s from hunting, they can drive around and trophy bucks will be behind every tree and their clients can shoot right from the truck. As many of you know, trophy muleys rarely, if ever, come easy.


I for one am not willing to sit idly by and watch my hard work go down the drain while some lazy ass outfitters think they might get more bookings by restricting resident hunters. I am not willing to see draw odds where I have to sit out season after season waiting for a chance to hunt mule deer. If the outfitters want to kill big bucks, they are going to have to do it the same way I do, through a lot of hard work. If you are considering a mule deer hunt with BC, I would recommend you go elsewhere. Your money will be better spent hunting with guides who actually know how to get the job done. If you book in BC, you will be sadly disappointed, as it ain’t as rosey as my pictures may have led you to believe.

[boxhitch]

......2240 for allocation under leh and g/o quota.....So 1680 to residents. Just picture the LEH permits, assuming maybe 80% participation/success estd., so close to 2000 leh permits released ?? WTF!

[oldtimer]

So what has happened to the early and late bow seasons ? Sept. 1 to 10 and Dec. 1 to 10. It was my understanding these would not change.
For anybody outside of the region to voice an opinion on the deer population in the area without actually living up here and seeing the total area would be like me voicing an opinion on Blacktail limits on the Island. Totally without merit ! Mike

[dana]

Mike,
That sounds like NIMBY comments too me. While I don't live within the boundaries of Region 5, I do live within a short 35 min drive of the Region. Are you saying I shouldn't comment?

[GoatGuy]

So what has happened to the early and late bow seasons ? Sept. 1 to 10 and Dec. 1 to 10. It was my understanding these would not change.
For anybody outside of the region to voice an opinion on the deer population in the area without actually living up here and seeing the total area would be like me voicing an opinion on Blacktail limits on the Island. Totally without merit ! Mike

Geez, 1000+ deer being run over on 97 seems significant to me? That's a lot of venison. Probably end up with a big winter kill at some point. What a waste.

The hunting season before 2004 worked just fine (Nov 1 4 pt start). Everybody was happy, why change it? Oh, right, trophy bucks.

[BCrams]

putting additional pressure on the region 3 four point season,which will ultimately destroy the already declining buck population

The hunting pressure in Region 3 is going to be unreal if this Reg. 5 proposal goes forth.

As a result, there will be a chain reaction of changes through to other regions such as 4, 7 and 8.

[BCrams]

The hunting season before 2004 worked just fine (Nov 1 4 pt start). Everybody was happy, why change it? Oh, right, trophy bucks.

Under the 'disguise' of trophy management. Many knew (myself included) it was destined for failure. When failure occurs, they (MOE) must fix it. Well now...... with the added Guide Outfitter pressure and disregard for resident hunters, they were able to succeed implementing a season they wanted all along.

As GG mentions, the prior system worked great.

[Gateholio]

dana, you should post that over at 24 hour campfire and AccurateReloading.com

[oldtimer]

Dana, not at all . Just people that make comments like " sound good to me " when they don't know the area first hand should maybe preface their comments with " what I understand " or " from what I have heard "
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. That opinion should be based on actual observations or prefaced with the above. Mike

[GoatGuy]

The hunting pressure in Region 3 is going to be unreal if this Reg. 5 proposal goes forth.

As a result, there will be a chain reaction of changes through to other regions such as 4, 7 and 8.


3, 4 and 8 will take the brunt of the pressure on this one. With the immature moose season and any buck in October for most places can expect quite a few more hunters. And the late season in region 3 will be hanging by a thread.

Sounds vaguely familiar.

This is exactly what happened to moose. In 25 years we went from GOS province wide to LEH in Regions 4,5,3,8, 7A and 6. Cut the harvest back 15% Province wide with half the hunters and a pile of moose in many areas. Hope everybody's got a nice letter opener.

L



E



H

[J_T]

As we come into an election I would assume the BCWF representing resident hunters has a top 3 list and has developed an election communication strategy and key messaging. Provide position, comment on statements. Use the election to resident advantage. Short simple and to the point.

[muleyman]

WTF WTF WTF :evil:

[BearSniper]

Isn't this great ?

Thanko you Gordo.....selling us out to the Americans again.

Trouble is, you can't even get space in a courtroom to challenge this as he's shut half of them down too.

This is the closest you'll get to a dictatorship here.

The George Bush of B.C. " my way or the highway"


sad...................

:frown:

[Fisher-Dude]

Isn't this great ?

Thanko you Gordo.....selling us out to the Americans again.

Trouble is, you can't even get space in a courtroom to challenge this as he's shut half of them down too.

This is the closest you'll get to a dictatorship here.

The George Bush of B.C. " my way or the highway"


sad...................

:frown:

Gordo hasn't even heard about this silly. Geesh! Call Carole James and ask her about a predator control program for region 5.

[Dirty]

I have mass emailed to Environment Minister/local MLA, and all emails listed in the thread. I don't really know what I am talking about, but I like to complain. Definitely worth the 5 minutes of my time to send another email.

[CJ-Jim]

The Big thing you are missing is the local Cattlemen,s Assoc. and local Quesnel Rod and Gun have been pushing for a Doe season in Region 5 = the Cattlemen are getting very angry with the Regional Manager , Who has stated " no one is going to hunt MY DOES"
the Cattlemen did a study of how much feed was being eaten by Deer and even they were suprized at the crop damage being done
The Local Manager in Williams Lake didn,t even listen to their concerns / and when it came to Quesnel Rod and Gun /the ministry in Williams Lake very HONESTLY ?? made a mistake about the date of the meeting / between the two / so Quesnel R&G was unable to discuss the situation /
BIG BUCKS are fine but how about the Guy who just wants to put meat in the frezzer
Take a look at how other Prov,s manage their wildlife and you well soon realize just how poorly ours is being done !!

[Manglinmike]

Well I think that one of the problems with the season is the closer of the remembrance day weekend,every deer hunter in B.C goes hunting on that weekend,backpackers and Bubba with a can of bud between his knees and an old win 94 on the seat.And just because 5 is closed that doesn't mean that those dudes that have being waiting until nov to pick up their licence and a copy of the regs are going to say screw it and stay in Vancouver, hell no their going to head straight for 3 and every road in 3 is going to be packed with guys that don't know the area ,and are driving the roads!! It starts with cluster and ends with -uck!!!!

[PGK]

Well I think that one of the problems with the season is the closer of the remembrance day weekend,every deer hunter in B.C goes hunting on that weekend,backpackers and Bubba with a can of bud between his knees and an old win 94 on the seat.And just because 5 is closed that doesn't mean that those dudes that have being waiting until nov to pick up their licence and a copy of the regs are going to say screw it and stay in Vancouver, hell no their going to head straight for 3 and every road in 3 is going to be packed with guys that don't know the area ,and are driving the roads!! It starts with cluster and ends with -uck!!!!

I think it's going to end in a hella slaughter of bucks after the 20th, because in the last three years, and I'm sticking to this, the rut hasn't kicked in until at least the 15th, if not after the 20th.

[GoatGuy]

I think it's going to end in a hella slaughter of bucks after the 20th, because in the last three years, and I'm sticking to this, the rut hasn't kicked in until at least the 15th, if not after the 20th.

The reason there were so many hunters is because it was the only any buck season in the rut in the entire friggen Province.

This isn't rocket science.

Go back to the 4 pt starting Nov 1 (like they had before they decided to tinker with the seasons again) and most of the guys will head out in October for the any buck like they do in Regions 3 and 8.

The harvest from the 21-30th (any buck) is cut by about 75% when comparing to the Nov 11-20th (4 pt).

[6616]

The Big thing you are missing is the local Cattlemen,s Assoc. and local Quesnel Rod and Gun have been pushing for a Doe season in Region 5 = the Cattlemen are getting very angry with the Regional Manager , Who has stated " no one is going to hunt MY DOES"
the Cattlemen did a study of how much feed was being eaten by Deer and even they were suprized at the crop damage being done
The Local Manager in Williams Lake didn,t even listen to their concerns / and when it came to Quesnel Rod and Gun /the ministry in Williams Lake very HONESTLY ?? made a mistake about the date of the meeting / between the two / so Quesnel R&G was unable to discuss the situation /
BIG BUCKS are fine but how about the Guy who just wants to put meat in the frezzer
Take a look at how other Prov,s manage their wildlife and you well soon realize just how poorly ours is being done !!

Cash compensation payments to ranchers in the Cariboo Region this year are expected to top the 1/2 million dollar mark. I wonder how much money guided hunts for trophy mule deer add to the local economy?

[BearSniper]

Hi Fisher Dude,


I never said I was a fan of Carole James.


Just expressing my displeasure with the sad direction my home is heading at the hands of a dishonest politician.


Hunting lands on Van Isle are disappearing due to Yank owners gating roads, and people who lived here all their lives are getting short changed on hunting opportunities in favour of Americans.


I am a conservative person, but not a right wing extremist.


I know a crook when I see one, and ther's a crook in Victoria.

[horshur]

if the trend is inevitable(decline of hunters) how would you plan the management so as to be a viable entity???.....I'm just being devils advocate here to rationalize some of the recent suggested proposals.

the region 5 regs don't bother me so much in themselves however they have grave implications to other regions ....the fact they are probably a knee jerk reaction not withstanding.

but how do you present this in a letter to the local paper........".the region 5 managers due to incompetance or bowing to special intrests or in bed with special intrest or government bullying have caused the need or a percieved need for regulation change that has a direct result here in our valley.....this may result in leh for mule deer eventualy which is what hunters want somewhere else so were told."

I can't write a letter like that.

[pikey]

So, I'm a little confused here.

Many people think these reg changes throughout the Province are being pushed by the G\O's screwing us, the resident hunters in order for them to get more share and bigger bucks.

Everytime something comes up in the news about how the majority of granola's HATE trophy hunting by (largely) foreign hunters taking game that the rest of us are on LEH for, we the resident hunters defend them to the hilt.

So why are we, the resident hunters doing that again?

[abbyfireguy]

I don't really give a crap how much $$$$ non-resident alien hunters bring into our province, be they yankees or europeans.
Its our province, we own the resources and the government officials both elected and ministry employees work for us. We tell them what we want ,come on folks, lets make it very loud and very clear, B.C. residents first and foremost and the rest of the chaf get the rest.
If the GOABC doesn't like it,,OH WELL, get a job at Walmart!!!

But, I really didn't expect anything less from Gordo (the drunk Hawaiian driver) than how he is selling off B.C. to the highest bidder.
Had major issues as a City of Vancouver Firefighter when he used to be our mayor,he was a prick then and still earns the same title now.
B.C. is for big business and cashing in on the gravy train for the elite in his view.
Very sad!!
Time to stand up and be heard people! Lets tell them whats on our minds .

[spock]

If you want to get attention mail a letter, don't e-mail by law they have to respond to a mailed letter, it will not likely be anything more than a form letter but it will at least force the politician in questions' office compose a form letter.

[deerstocker]

its always the same in bc reduce bag limit raise prices and give more restrictions and then wander y so many mistakes r made every year by hunters they dont want u to get your animal but want your money:-x

[Jelvis]

Three decades ago the rumour was all hunting in B.C. was going like the States, Lucky Draws System all by draws. Looks like we're heading in that direction, people pay to get in the draws by the hundreds for one leh draw and if they are unlucky they paid already. Wallah more money in the coffers for they say, management team and conservation efforts. Whether we agree or not the predictions of hunter's years ago are almost realized --- all leh eventually. Pardner. Only leh draws in a few years is coming according to some, no gos so maybe this prediction will come along also.
Jelness -- region 5 seems to be going that way now. Then region 3 next by the sound of it. Cuz where you gonna go for hunting in the late fall?
Jello - leh only? You pays the bucks you takes the chances -- Odd + Even --

[Dirty]

I will be sending mail letters to the aforementioned people in this thread. At least I will get a mail response.

[GoatGuy]

Three decades ago the rumour was all hunting in B.C. was going like the States, Lucky Draws System all by draws. Looks like we're heading in that direction, people pay to get in the draws by the hundreds for one leh draw and if they are unlucky they paid already. Wallah more money in the coffers for they say, management team and conservation efforts. Whether we agree or not the predictions of hunter's years ago are almost realized --- all leh eventually. Pardner. Only leh draws in a few years is coming according to some, no gos so maybe this prediction will come along also.
Jelness -- region 5 seems to be going that way now. Then region 3 next by the sound of it. Cuz where you gonna go for hunting in the late fall?
Jello - leh only? You pays the bucks you takes the chances -- Odd + Even --

That's the thing. The government loses money when they go to LEH from a GOS big time. The outfitter's bring in a bit but it ain't the lions share.

[horshur]

That's the thing. The government loses money when they go to LEH from a GOS big time. The outfitter's bring in a bit but it ain't the lions share.

Than why???

Don't know who to trust cause I do not know anyones agenda....

[PGK]

Than why???

Don't know who to trust cause I do not know anyones agenda....

Welcome to my boat. What GG et al says makes sense, but I have not heard even a bad reason why the bio is in bed with the outfitter, let alone a good reason. I refuse to form a hard and fast opinion on this until I have all the information. As it stands right now, threats of LEH aside, I will personally gain from these changes.

[GoatGuy]

Than why???

Don't know who to trust cause I do not know anyones agenda....

Exactly, so there's no reason to be throwing one out there. Conspiracy theories seldom lead to action.



Focusing on conservation goals and then letting people go hunting. That makes life easy and these reg changes don't do that.

[BCrams]

Focusing on conservation goals and then letting people go hunting. That makes life easy and these reg changes don't do that.

The question may be then:

Who are the people within MOE working for??

What is the mandate of MOE and what are the bio's doing about it??

Are the biologist following this mandate as their job says they are supposed to??

Is the MOE 'letting' people go hunt??



If it is none of the above........

Is there accountability??

Perhaps this is where Deputy Minister Doug Konkin and Assistant Deputy Minister Ralph Archibald need to revamp and restructure the ranks within MOE.

[PGK]

I think we need a list of names. Start putting the pressure on people. If they know there are a bunch of pissed off resident hunters watching their every move, they may stop sleeping with the outfitters.

[GoatGuy]

The question may be then:

Who are the people within MOE working for??

What is the mandate of MOE and what are the bio's doing about it??

Are the biologist following this mandate as their job says they are supposed to??

Is the MOE 'letting' people go hunt??



If it is none of the above........

Is there accountability??

Perhaps this is where Deputy Minister Doug Konkin and Assistant Deputy Minister Ralph Archibald need to revamp and restructure the ranks within MOE.

Hey man, keep 'er simple.

Seasons that meet conservation objectives and maximize resident hunter participation, opportunity and harvest. Everybody gets to go, everybody gets to hunt and if we don't change the season every other year the distribution of hunters and harvest will allow everyone to enjoy the opportunity they're looking for.

No need to make it complicated.

[GoatGuy]

I think we need a list of names. Start putting the pressure on people. If they know there are a bunch of pissed off resident hunters watching their every move, they may stop sleeping with the outfitters.

Change has to come out of Victoria and that comes through the media.

We've tried writing letters to managers and all the rest of the garbage. It doesn't work for us.

Time for a new approach.

[BCrams]

Hey man, keep 'er simple.

Seasons that meet conservation objectives and maximize resident hunter participation, opportunity and harvest. Everybody gets to go, everybody gets to hunt and if we don't change the season every other year the distribution of hunters and harvest will allow everyone to enjoy the opportunity they're looking for.

No need to make it complicated.




I see most of the solutions as being quite simple, like you do.

However, if you don't have the proactive individuals to understand and make it happen........what to do?

[GoatGuy]

I see most of the solutions as being quite simple, like you do.

However, if you don't have the proactive individuals to understand and make it happen........what to do?

take it and make it public.

[PGK]

OK. Well, good luck. I'm sure you can appreciate my situation and why I may keep my head low while the system is being shaken up. Go get em!

[Micky Finn]

For anyone who May be interested in commenting on this decision:

Region 5 - Regional Manager - Ministry of Enviroment

Stewart, Rodger
Rodger.Stewart@gov.bc.ca (Rodger.Stewart@gov.bc.ca)
(250) 398-4546

#400 640 Borland Street
Williams Lake British Columbia V2G 4T1
Canada




Director - Fish and Wildlife Branch - Ministry of Environment

Tom Ethier
Tom.Ethier@gov.bc.ca (Tom.Ethier@gov.bc.ca)
(250) 387-5657

PO BOX 9391
STN PROV GOV'T
VICTORIA BC V8W 9M8
Canada




MLA: Cariboo North

Bob Simpson
bob.simpson.mla@leg.bc.ca (bob.simpson.mla@leg.bc.ca)

Quesnel Constituency:
401 - 410 Kinchant St .
Quesnel, BC
V2J 7J5
(250) 991-0296
1 866 991-0296

Williams Lake Constituency:
#2-487 Borland St
Williams Lake, BC
V2G 1R9
(250) 305-3800
1 866 305-3804




MLA: Cariboo South

Charlie Wyse charlie.wyse.mla@leg.bc.ca (charlie.wyse.mla@leg.bc.ca)

Williams Lake Constituency:
2 - 487 Borland St
Williams Lake
V2G 1R9

250 305-3800

1 866 305-3804

[PGK]

Interesting blurb I just found by accident ;)

New business - item number 7

http://www3.telus.net/cariboochilcotin/bcwfregion5/minofmet/mi071500.htm

"Stewart keeps us in the dark as to quotas for guide outfitters"

I have also run across a couple of tidbits where Stewart is on record as being against lifting road closures for residents, but will not persecute outfitters that are using CLOSED road access illegally, as he claims he will be charged for disallowing a legitimate business to conduct it's business. And so the mystery deepens...

[Micky Finn]

Welcome to my boat. What G et AL says makes sense, but I have not heard even a bad reason why the bio is in bed with the outfitter, let alone a good reason. I refuse to form a hard and fast opinion on this until I have all the information. As it stands right now, threats of LEH aside, I will personally gain from these changes.

Well PKG, I don't believe that the bio, Pat Tillman - a Wildlife Technician actually, is in bed with the Go's.

He is more of the reformed hippie and truely wants to "Save the Deer". He realizes that limiting resident opportunity he will drastically cut harvest and hunter numbers in one swoop. He has been making differing proposals for years, but they have the same result cutting resident numbers. he knows he will not get the same benefit by cutting non-resident harvest and as their harvest is only a small percentage of resident harvest not worth the effort.

The whole basis for this is supposed to be Buck to Doe ratio's but as we are have an overall population in excess of carrying capacity, if we were to triple the Doe component (Doe GOS) of the harvest, the problem would have been addressed even more quickly, the population would stabilize and there would be more meat in peoples freezers.

Unfortunately, everyone says they are a meat hunter but although the want an increase in does for everyone else they still demand bucks for themselves.

[PGK]

I like knowing names :)

[GoatGuy]

Interesting blurb I just found by accident ;)

New business - item number 7

http://www3.telus.net/cariboochilcotin/bcwfregion5/minofmet/mi071500.htm

"Stewart keeps us in the dark as to quotas for guide outfitters"

I have also run across a couple of tidbits where Stewart is on record as being against lifting road closures for residents, but will not persecute outfitters that are using CLOSED road access illegally, as he claims he will be charged for disallowing a legitimate business to conduct it's business. And so the mystery deepens...

Nothing new there, but like I said we're far better off sticking to the facts.

The facts are the moose GOS was closed because of a bad winter. We went from 7500 hunters to 2300 the following year (cut around 70% of moose hunters). Hunters have averaged around 2600 since then other than 2004 when they had the immature bull season. Harvest was cut by 70% and is now about 40% below the average harvest. Of course resident's were promised it would re-open after things got better.

A few years later things started to improve and you guessed it NO GOS. Nobody did anything. Words like "over my dead body" came up at meetings. Great.

Finally local resident hunters had to petition the branch guys for a friggen' immature bull moose season opened up of which they did a terrible job of consultation on and FN shut it down. Great!

Oh and here's the great part 5 year average non-res hunters prior to LEH was 306 and harvest was 145. The non-res average hunters are now at 439 and harvest 225. Sound fair?

Residents lost around 60% of hunters, 40% of harvest and non-res hunters increased around 40% and harvest increased 55%.

Hope I made your morning. Welcome to the real world.

[boxhitch]

Hunters have averaged around 2600 since then other than 2004 when they had the immature bull season. Harvest was cut by 70% and is now about 40% below the average harvest.Couple that with the draw odds and shows how restrictive the leh is to opportunity.
Hunter numbers down=hunters success down, but the desire to go hunting is still there.

[bridger]

thanks for that last bit of info on the moose harvest that is unbelieveable

[GoatGuy]

A letter I saw today to one of the MLAs up there. Figured I'd pass it on. Some decent info in there.


Mr.Simpson,


The history of the Cariboo mule deer and moose hunting is quite a story. The regulations have changed drastically 4 times over the past 14 years in what seems to be a drive to create more trophy bucks for non-resident hunters. During that same period resident hunters have also been alienated and locked out of moose hunting in the Cariboo.

In 1999 when moose hunting went to LEH (with the ‘promise’ of going back to GOS) resident moose hunters were abandoned and their opportunity given to non-residents. When moose went to LEH resident hunter moose hunters were cut by 69% and resident moose harvest was cut by the same amount. That year non-resident hunter numbers actually increased by 18% on the harvest only decreased by 9%! From then to 2006 resident hunters remained at about 34% and harvest of 58% of 1998 levels – a huge decline! During that time non-residents actually increased 54% over pre 1998 and harvest increased 51%. Resident hunters were essentially kicked out of their hunting season and their harvest was given to non-residents.

The provincial objective for mule deer is to have a post hunt buck:doe ratio of 20:100. At 20:100 the result is only a couple of what are considered trophy bucks per 100 bucks and fewer trophy bucks with a 4 pt restriction. This ratio is relatively conservative in relation to the health of a mule deer herd. Research has indicated that a buck:doe ratio from 10-40:100 has very little effect on fawn recruitment and overall population trends. There has never been any research that has supported any biologically meaningful relationship between the number of mature bucks and the overall health and productivity of a mule deer herd. Washington State manages more ~80% of it’s hunts for a target buck:doe ratio between 15-19 bucks per 100 does and that ratio is considered to be a significant shift in quality compared to ratios they had in the 1960s.

The changes in Region 5 have nothing to do with conservation or the health of the mule deer herd. From 2000-2003 all count revealed robust buck:doe ratios above the provincial objective, some as high as 31.2:100. Hunting had likely never been that good! Still changes were made to increase the number of trophy bucks. The change was to move to a non-selective harvest from Nov 1-20. It would be the only any buck season in the Province during the rut. The changes were poorly researched as they resulted in a huge increase in harvest – a recipe for disaster. Luckily the winters remained good and recruitment was high.

The only way to increase the trophy component of mule deer is to reduce the overall harvest and use a non-selective harvest strategy. This means far less opportunity for resident hunters. In the United States they found moving to antler restrictions raised buck:doe ratios but actually resulted in fewer mature bucks. The same was experienced in the Cariboo; it seems we are intent on copying other jurisdiction’s mistakes. This has been documented all the way back into the mid 1980s. Furthermore, moving to antler restricted hunts have been shown to reduce resident hunter participation and harvest, resulting in a decline of resident hunter numbers. This has been found in BC and in the United States. The decline of resident hunter numbers is a contributory factor in the increase of buck:doe ratios.

Immense changes in harvest are required to make a significant change in buck:doe ratios. For example a model of harvest in the Peace with a buck:doe ratio of 20:100 estimated resident hunters could expect a total harvest of 1000 and enjoy a 90 day season. With a buck:doe ratio of 25:100 resident hunters could expect a total harvest of approximately 400 and a 50 day season. That is an immense change in harvest and opportunity at the expense of resident hunters for a small increase of the trophy component. This isn’t what resident hunters want!

In any case the season was changed again in 2004, with very predictable results. Along with a drastic increase in pressure due to changes in the buck season and harvest, antlerless lottery (limited entry hunting) authorizations increased significantly. Limited entry hunting is not hunter opportunity – it is only the opportunity to put in for the ability to go hunting. The negative effect of LEH on resident hunter participation is well documented (see moose in the Cariboo). Harvest increased until the point that the buck:doe ratios was 19.3:100, not a conservation concern but 3% below the provincial objective. There are several solutions to this apparent problem which were suggested and all have been dismissed. They include moving to an antlerless GOS outside of the buck hunt and moving to a 4 pt season Nov 1st as the previously successful management regime had. None of these were looked at. Instead we have a closure which will have severe repercussions in other regions of the Province.

In this case of management it is both resident hunters and the ranching/agricultural community who have lost out immensely only to benefit a handful of non-resident hunters. Taxpayers are paying for huge compensation damages. Not to mention the number of wildlife collisions on highway 97 and their effect again on ICBC and the resulting residents of BC. All the while resident hunters’ freezers remain empty.

It is unfortunate when there is such a drive to encourage non-resident trophy hunting when there are resident hunters who want to hunt and feed their families. I have friends who live in the Cariboo who are out of jobs and on shortened work weeks and their Province has told them they can’t provide their meat to their family because they’ve decided quality hunts and trophy hunting are more important. Sounds like the story of Robin Hood.

While resident moose hunters have been placed on a lottery system, their numbers cut by 64% and harvest cut in half, things have never been better for the non-resident!

A modern day tragedy all at the expense of BC’s taxpayers and resident hunters.

Last but not least your constituents.

Thanks for your time,

XXXXXXXX

[Dirty]

That is a really good letter.

[dime]

For anyone who May be interested in commenting on this decision:

Region 5 - Regional Manager - Ministry of Enviroment

Stewart, Rodger
Rodger.Stewart@gov.bc.ca (Rodger.Stewart@gov.bc.ca)
(250) 398-4546

#400 640 Borland Street
Williams Lake British Columbia V2G 4T1
Canada




Director - Fish and Wildlife Branch - Ministry of Environment

Tom Ethier
Tom.Ethier@gov.bc.ca (Tom.Ethier@gov.bc.ca)
(250) 387-5657

PO BOX 9391
STN PROV GOV'T
VICTORIA BC V8W 9M8
Canada




MLA: Cariboo North

Bob Simpson
bob.simpson.mla@leg.bc.ca (bob.simpson.mla@leg.bc.ca)

Quesnel Constituency:
401 - 410 Kinchant St .
Quesnel, BC
V2J 7J5
(250) 991-0296
1 866 991-0296

Williams Lake Constituency:
#2-487 Borland St
Williams Lake, BC
V2G 1R9
(250) 305-3800
1 866 305-3804




MLA: Cariboo South

Charlie Wyse charlie.wyse.mla@leg.bc.ca (charlie.wyse.mla@leg.bc.ca)

Williams Lake Constituency:
2 - 487 Borland St
Williams Lake
V2G 1R9

250 305-3800

1 866 305-3804

I just wrote this e-mail and sent it to all those listed above:

To Whom It May Concern:
It has been brought to the attention of hunters like myself that there are serious changes being proposed to the mule deer allocation for the 2009 season, and this letter is one of protest. In a time when hunter numbers are dropping, and the economy in the Cariboo is in decline, it seems ridiculous to limit the hunting opportunities by closing the general open season for mule deer in the early part of the season. My family has hunted for mule deer in September in the Williams lake region since 1970, and we have seen mule deer numbers increase over this time period. As stated, and supported by data collected by the very government proposing these changes, the number of hunters in this time period had decreased. Why then would you be limiting the hunting opportunities, this makes no sense. The revenue generated by hunters coming from out of town supports locals, and when you limit the opportunities that these hunters enjoy, you are limiting the ability of local businesses that need these customers to survive.
It has been suggested that these changes are primarily catering to the guide outfitters, but by bowing to this lobby group, you are diverting all the money that would otherwise be spread around amongst many small business owners. If only a few parties (outfitters) receive all the revenue, many of whom are not local and therefore not spending the money in the community, then you are further limiting the ability of the local business owners to thrive.
I strongly urge you to reconsider this decision, and reopen the general open season for any Mule deer buck in September.
Thank you,
XXXXXXXXXX

Feel free to copy

[BCrams]

A deserving little bump.