Breeding and buying puppys

[labguy]

The reason for this post is because of some threads advertising hunting dogs that aren't papered (registered with the CKC)

While some may feel that buying one of these dogs will save them some money, I would urge caution before making a decision.

People that know about dogs and breeding will test both parents before breeding for any number of genetic defects. (In Labradors there is hip displasia, elbow displasia, eyes (CERF), Centro Nucular Myopathy (CNM), Exercise Induced Collapse (EIC), Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA), dwarfism, diabetes and many others.) Other breeds share some of these problems in addition to having some of their own.

I suggest you take the time to look up these diseases to know what you could be up against with a dog that has any of them. A breeder that is in the know will insure that both parents are genetically tested before breeding in addition to doing X-Rays for hips and elbows. They will know what lines are prone to what problems and breed so as to avoid these. They will know the history of the lines they're breeding. This will help insure a healthy puppy that will live it's life to completion with the least amount of health problems.

The results of not being conscientious about breeding is that many times the new owner will start training the puppy, becoming extremely attached only to have the dog develop one or more of these problems making them, in many cases, useless for the purpose they were purchased for or worse yet. (Dog has to be put down, kids crying, big hole in the family etc.)

The fact is that the cost of the dog is the least amount of the total spent in the life of that dog. There's vet bills, innoculations, food, boarding, training..........the list goes on. If a puppy costs $250 by the time the dog has reached 10 or 12 you may have spent a total of $10,250.00. The same dog from a well bred line with all the health clearances might end up costing $10,800. Probably less if there are fewer vet visits because of unforseen genetic defects.

Obviously there are no guarantees either way. You could buy a $250 dollar puppy and get the best animal in the world. However the odds are that the extra money spent to buy a well bred dog with all the health clearances will end up costing you far less money and heartache in the long run.

I'm not trying to bash anyone for their choices in breeding or buying dogs but I thought some of these considerations should be brought up.

By the way, I don't breed or sell dogs so I have no motivation for this post other than to inform.

[leadpillproductions]

i am ofering to sell my lab puppys im mot saying there registered but they are full labs
both my girls are in very good health and father also too im just offerinfg a good puppy for less
and there will be a obvious some kind of reenburstment if some thin happens to puppy with in a reasonable time frame i will stand be hind my dogs

[500grhollowpoint]

This thread sucks worse than the spelling one.

[bearhunter338-06]

On the other hand you can get a papered lab from a puppy mill. As we all know they are so well cared for.

[digger dogger]

x2 leadpill but i'm selling rottweilers not even a hunting dog but a good dog at a proper $ the first dog i ever bought was a 200 dollar rotty then got caught up in the paper b.s and bought a 1300 dollar inbred ******ed "papered" rotty with "great pedigree" and it died from cancer @ 6 yrs. i put down my american bulldog on mar 6 08 he was papered and died from cancer @ barely 4 yrs. my 200 dollar dog lived to 10 days before his 13th b_day and my ex has his son, he's heathy happy and not paperedover 7yrs. my bitch is 2.5 yrs heathy so far and happy (no papers). you can get a feel for most people when you go to buy a dog. would you buy a dog from a skid or from a person with 10 skiddy bitches and one or 2 sires probably not? not everyone has a puppy mill. i bred my dog to get a male for myself. go buy a papered black & tan and see how well it hunts! i'm farely new here on hbc and try to keep my mouth shut, but keep your considerations to yourself, LABGUY. diggerfndogger.

[leadpillproductions]

i agree you dont know my dogs are very good shape the fater of the pups are from my wifes boss and hes a big healthy black lab of course you hope they will be health but you dont know

[30-378-magnum]

This thread sucks worse than the spelling one.

i think it is photoshopped.......hhmmmmmm.....

[BigBanger]

My dogs fine and he has no papers. I bought him form some crack head in Langley because I felt bad for him. He is an awesome dog. When its time , its time. Having a dog isn't a life long thing. They come and go.

[Jimsue]

Labguy hit the nail on the head, and a very informitive post for any one looking to buy any breed of dog. If the parents are not tested then pay your money and take a chance, it's your money, no one is going to stop you.
Myself on the other hand, I like to educate myself before buying big dollar items, Labguys comment are very close to what I tell any one who calls regarding purchasing a pup from me.

Lots of people don't test there dogs but know they are clear of any problems, I don't have that gift. I have to pay to find out.

[500grhollowpoint]

It's a dog for heavens sake. I didn't get my wife tested before I married her and I plan on keeping her way longer than the dog.

[bighornbob]

Its all the in-breeding to get this and that that has caused all these problems to begin with.

As soon as a breed is registered, some judge or a group of judges decide what that dog should look like and they are bred to be like that to win some awards.

Time magazine had a article about this very thing a few years ago. I cant remember all the details but one breed cant even give natural birth anymore. They have been bred to have a big head and the mothers now cant pass a pup and its large head through the birthing canal. All pups have to to be born by C-section. if thats not f**ked I dont know what is.

BHB

[Rock Doctor]

Going from personal experience, I have had about a dozen dogs in my life, usually more than one at a time. None of them Papered. Mostly German Shepherds, or Lab X's. None of them EVER had to visit a Vet due to sickness or disease. Most of them lived long healthy lives (The ones that died young were severly injured in one way or another). Many of my friends and family seem to think that Papered Purebreds are the way to go. ALL of the dogs these people bought had/have issues, eye infections, breathing problems, hip displasia, Blindness, deafness, hyperactiveness, mental issues, diabetes, ect, ect.

For me, there can be no question. A dog from "The guy down the streat" is the only way to go.

One of my favorites, he can NEVER be replaced:
Nanook, White German Sheppard, 120lbs in his prime, made it to about 10yrs old, passed away in his sleep..............RIP little buddy.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o281/RockDocPhoto/Fixed%20Pics/02-14-2007015324PM.jpg

RD

[Clint_S]

Papers don't make a dog.
Registries can and do hurt breeds by limiting any outcrosses which is how all breeds were started in the first place. Show breeding with it's strict adherence to a specific "type" is the death of all working breeds.
Scrutinize the breeder not the paper.

[Sasquatch]

I've owned some really great mongrels, including a shepherd/husky that lived healthy for almost 17 years and I still remember him as the smartest dog I've ever known. I've also had mutts with health issues that died way too young.

I've owned healthy purebreds and not so healthy ones, probably in the same proportion as mongrels I've owned. A conscientious breeder may help, as they really do care about the health of the pups they sell, but even the best breeder cannot stop recessive genes that can cause problems in purebred dogs. If they could, they would "guarantee" your money back if you had any problems...instead of offering another pup, which is the standard guarantee on a dog.

I chose a purebred this time, because I wanted to ensure a particular behavior from the dog ie; pointing birds -- and that is the real value to papers as far as I'm concerned, having a good idea of what you're going to get in behaviour, temparment and look.

In my limited experience I have noticed no difference in the health between papered dogs and mongrels overall - some are ok, some aren't. If someone can show hard evidence to the contrary , I'd be very interested in seeing it.

[digger dogger]

when a dog lives to 4 or 6 years old & dies from cancer do you give the people back their $ or give them a new pup jimsue? i doubt it. and show me a vet that can tell a person their dog is gonna get cancer, kidney, skin, ear problems ect. that would save me the early heart ache ,waste of training & trying to figure out what's wrong with the dog. so a waste of $. if you think 500 is a big dollar item. what do you sell your breed of papered dogs for? i'm thinkin too much! lemme know if you got a guy that can help me breed my rotty so i can get just one male for my ownself then i don't have to sell dogs. i don't have that gift.

[labguy]

I'm surprised at how off topic this thread seems to have become. Perhaps I should have been clearer in my original post.... :o

I am only talking about purebred hunting dog breeds here. Not cross breeds, not mongrels, not malmutes, not Aikidas, not Rotweilers, not somebody's wife or anything else except purebred hunting breeds. Any comments about breeding and buying these other animals (or selecting ones wife) is off topic and only serves to confuse the orignial offering. :confused:

This is really not that complicated. :roll:

When you buy a purebred hunting breed puppy, your odds of getting a healthy pup are much better when the breeder has done the necessary health clearances on both parents...............that's all I'm saying..........nothing more. And this testing costs money which has to be passed on in the price of the pup. :roll:

Please, in the interests of keeping this thread on topic, it would be nice to keep comments to the discussion at hand.....which is purebred hunting breeds.

Otherwise we could talk about the merits of buying a Doberman Pincher over a Chihuaua or why not the merits of buying a Quarter horse over a Percheron??????? :-D

[horshur]

lab guy thought it was pretty clear..........several individuals have had poor luck with purebred papered dogs.........

don't even want to get into the purebred papered quarterhorses with me.....just one day with a camera and i'll show you the value of that!!!!

[SteadyGirl]

I've had a purebred. His name was Bear and he was a police academy reject (longhaired shepard) He got colon cancer when he was two and had to be put down at three. On the other hand I have a super mutt way over ten years old going strong, been to the vets twice because I felt like getting her a check up.

Both of my horses are mountain bred stock type horses, they would take offence to being called registered anythings;)
































Also, Just say no to puppy mills. Thanks!

[SHACK]

I have to agree somewhat with Labguy here, not as much on the health of the said dog. Its a crap shoot with health and genetic defects, but you can narrow some of the problems down a bit with clean hips, eyes, etc, but more so with temperament and drive. Having solid hunting, pointing, flushing, trailing, and retrieving instincts for generations in a particular line is a lot less of a "crap shoot" than purchasing a dog from a "back yard" breeder who says the parents "hunt" etc.
Don'T get me wrong, you can get a dud in a dog that has been line bred for generations, but the chances are far less.
Its all about research, I don't buy the "you can get a messed up papered dog from a puppy mill" THATS THE BUYERS FAULT for not doing the research and going to a friggin puppy mill in the first place. Not a breeders are large, or spit out litters every year, or many times a year, but some will go through the time and finances to ensure that the product they are selling you is the best that they can offer.
You don't just guess when you drop a powder charge in a hand load and hope for the best, you research the load, check the ballistics, pressures, etc and hope it works for you in the end. The same goes with dogs IMO.
I have had pound puppies, back yard accidents, and purebreds. Loved them all, like children....but I can tell you which ones had the most of the traits I wanted to see in a dog!

[Gilmore]

I think Shack nailed it here. From the time I was 6 to the age of 35 I've had the pleasure of knowing 3 different hunting dogs. All were labs, 2 belonged to my Dad and one belonged to me. All 3 of these dogs were unpapered purebreds (as far as we know) but were not bred specificly for hunting just purebred mothers and purebred fathers. All 3 were spectacular waterfowling dogs, and one of them was also unbelievable on grouse and pheasants. All 3 were very intelligent and their instinct to hunting and retreiving was exactly what you would expect from a lab and all of them made it to 13 years of age before having to be put down. The last of these 3 dogs was put to rest 16 months ago and he was my dog Waylon, unfortunatly for my future dogs he will be the yardstick to which all others will be compared.;)

Now on to my new dog who is the first one we have ever had who is papered, I got him from Jim McFarland (Jimsue) and Jims dogs are bred specifically for gun dogs. He is now 10 months old and my Dad and I both agree that he is by far the smartest and most instinctual dog either of us have ever seen, birds DO NOT land in our yard. Now is he going to be better than those other dogs, that will be up to me through his training program but he definitly has the tools. I asked for a smart, bird nutty hunting fool of a dog and Jim gave me exactly what I paid for. Now I'm not saying you can't get that from an unpaperd dog but I do believe your chances of getting a dud are less by going through a breeder breeding exactly for the traits you want in your dog.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s56/gilmore-c/DSCF1161.jpg


Crosby's first duck retrevial and first hunt at 17 weeks old. The first of 5 that afternoon the last of which was a doubleheader! Now maybe it's luck but more likely it's good breeding. There was no special training here other than playing "fetch" in the yard, I got him used to the sound of a gun and he just does what he was born to do. As I'm sure you can tell I'm a very proud papa!


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s56/gilmore-c/DSCF1162.jpg

[Sasquatch]

Nice shots Gilmore. Looks like you're going to have a winner there.

[Marc]

When I was looking for a new dog for Christmas of 2007, my wife told me a friend of hers had a kennel and was breeding labs so I went over to look at the puppies. I asked her if the parents had ever received any titles, and she told me no and that she didn't know if any of the dogs she sold or the parents ever hunted. I also found out that the father of the litter had died of a heart rupture of some sort. Not what I was looking for to spend $1000 on.

Then I decided to change breeds this time around and look for a Chesapeake bay retriever. Both parents were tested and clear for eyes, hips, and elbows and a few other genetic eye traits for the breed. I also got to see the breeding lines of both parents who came from lines with titles up to MH. The Sire had CDX,TDX,WC,WD,CGC. The dame had her Champion of show.

Before Marshall (Chessie pup) turned a year old he obtained his Champion of show at the age of 9 months and earned his Junior Hunters title in 2 weekends passing 4 times, only requiring 3 passes to receive the title. He did this all before he was 1 year of age.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Marshall_Rowan_champion_picture.jpg

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Marc_Marshall.JPG

What does this all mean? It means I was able to do my homework and check the breed lines to make sure that I was getting my monies worth. I wasn't looking for a pet for around the house, I wanted a hunting dog that would hunt and that's what I got.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../photos/data/500/medium/Marshall_I_14_Feb_09.jpg



http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Marshall_goose.jpg

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Marshall_and_a_limit_of_drakes.jpg

[labguy]

When I was looking for a new dog last year my wife told me a friend of hers had a kennel and was breeding labs so I went over to look at the puppies. I asked her if the parents had ever received any titles, and she told me no and that she didn't know if any of the dogs she sold or the parents ever hunted. I also found out that the father of the litter had died of a heart rupture of some sort. Not what I was looking for to spend $1000 on.

Then I decided to change breeds this time around and look for a Chesapeake bay retriever. Both parents were tested and clear for eyes, hips, and elbows and a few other genetic eye traits for the breed. I also got to see the breeding lines of both parents who came from lines with titles up to MH. The Sire had CDX,TDX,WC,WD,CGC. The dame had her Champion of show.

Before Marshall (Chessie pup) turned a year old he obtained his Champion of show at the age of 9 months and earned his Junior Hunters title in 2 weekends passing 4 times, only requiring 3 passes to receive the title. He did this all before he was 1 year of age.

What does this all mean? It means I was able to do my homework and check the breed lines to make sure that I was getting my monies worth. I wasn't looking for a pet for around the house, I wanted a hunting dog that would hunt and that's what I got.

And what Marc said is the reason you buy a purebred dog.

You cannot enter any of the events that Marshall did or get the titles his parents had without being purebred and without being registered with the CKC. (or AKC or UKC)

And without registration papers you have no way of knowing what the lineage of your pup is 6 or 8 generation back or what the accomplishements were of those grandparents and great grandparents or what health issues they may or may not have had.

My hobby is training and competing with these dogs as well as hunting with them. If they weren't registered I would be unable to compete. I might think I have the best dogs in the world but without being able to put them up against any others, I'd just be blowing smoke.

To each his own but I'd sooner know where my dogs came from generations back, spend a bit of extra money up front, and have a pretty good idea what I can expect from that pup. It's all about being able to research background and then make an informed decision.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Labguy, the bottom line is if you want a hunting dog buy from proven hunting stock. I have never had a cougar ask to see my hounds papers. And I am sure the ducks and geese don't ask to see your labs papers either.. I believe with labs, pointers and such there are many more breeders that breed without hunting their stock ,as those dogs tend to make good pets. I would never buy a pure bred unless both parents were proven in the the field not in some trail event, as in the hound world trophies don't put game up they just let the owner beat their chest for a while. A pure bred can get killed as easy as a grade dog, the money some want for those papers is crazy.

[digger dogger]

sorry labguy i will have to disagree. if a guy had a buddy that bred labs(papered) and i had a beatiful looking lab and a great retreiver(not papered) and wanted to compete i bet i could talk the buddy into selling me a fake ckc reg. not ethical but that kind of stuff happens in the real world. now i have a registerd lab i can breed and get 1000 bux a pup for. until d.n.a is cheap enough! and your original post had heath issues nothing to do with competions. i can see someone like marc buying one of these high end dogs i do not know him but i gather he is a bird killing machine that eats ,sleeps and drinks bird hunting.most people buy labs for a good companion i believe. (a peice of paper does not always mean what it says.) here's another what if. if a guy breeds high end dogs and and one or two of his breeders developes cancer later on in life, and his stock is related to his breeders is he going to cull his whole kennel? i think not (but maybe) i'm sure he would get away from the bloodline as fast and as quiet as possible.

[Spokerider]

Having gathered a selection of hound / hunting books over the years, one point that I recall mentioned in more than one well written book, is that a pup will not have the "natural" or congenital hunting abilites, that it's great, great grandparents had, if the offspring of these hunting parents had not been hunted for 4 or 5 generations.

In other words, If a pair of dogs that had excellent hunting traits were to be bred, and the offspring of the next 4 to 5 generations were NOT hunted, these dogs would no longer have this natural hunting ability.

If you want a dog for hunting, look for a breeding pair that IS hunted, and has the DESIRED traits that YOU seek in your idea of a pet / hunting partner. Traits from breedings three generations back can easily be a dominant trait in any pup, so it's not just the breeding pair that dictates genetic traits.

[dutchie]

I personaly think that this thread should be locked because the premis of this thread is to slam another member and the dogs that he is selling. that is against this forum code of conduct and I personaly do not agree with how this info is being delivered.

With that being said the breeders that out cross and paper it as a pure breed, are the breeders that create some of the biggest problems because this is not dealing with recessive gene, this is trying to weave around it. These are the breeders that don't care about the blood lines of a dog but creating dogs for look and not performance. (bordercollies are the most problematic dog in North america for this)

The blood lines of a dog are what is going to show problems in the past and how they were dealt with. and the in-breeding co-efficiant is nothing more then a number. if you look at one of the most problem free kennels EVER in the history of hunting kennels is called "vom hege-haus" in Germany. Some of these dogs have Inbreeding co-efficiancies greater then 75% and not a single problem out of these litters and not only are some of these dogs the most well known hunting dogs in Europe, but they are problem free because the kennel removed the dogs with the recisve genes from the gene pool.

Marc's dog Marshal is a great example of a WELL breed dog and he did his homework, thus getting an exceptional dog!

The dogs that are crossed with a complete different breed will have different problems and not as many of them. that is because the recissive genes will not rear thier ugly head as easy or as often.

I agree with checking the checking for problems but the best way to get a good PURE BREED dog is to study the kennels,and what their dogs are known for, ask questions to current owners, learn how to read pedigree's, and read lots of literature on that breed.

This is a long process but it will reward you in the long run.

Dutchie

[Marc]

Hounds are also known as disposable dogs, the stupid ones get killed pretty quick and the smart ones survive. From the little that I know of hounds, from what I've heard and seen, a lot of houndsman cross breed their hounds anyways to try and get the best of several breeds.

I personally couldn't put my dogs on cats or bears in the fear of losing one of them. I'm not against it I just love my dogs to much to put them in a situation that they could lose their lives.

Comparing a hound to a retriever is also from one extreme to the other. Not to many hounds will listen to hand or whistle commands and be directed off lead without an e-collar on. We're also talking about buying / hunting with one dog not a pack of dogs.

I agree, that if the intention is to hunt the dog you want to buy then the lines should be proven. The problem in this day and age is there isn't many breeders that hunt their dogs. I belong to a retriever club here on the island and the majority(80%) of the people doing Hunt Test and Field trials are women. The reasoning behind this is, I figure,is that the majority of the men who own dogs just want to hunt them where as the women enjoy the training but a lot of them don't want to hunt.

To be honest I believe that the CKC hunt test aren't realistic. The shot isn't from the handler it's off in the distance, and the basic retrieves are 75-100 yards away for a beginning dog and the retrieves get further and more complicated as the dogs progress to the next level. There could be 5 to 20 dogs waiting to do the hunt test, lots of scent and distractions for the dog to filter through. I've waterfowl hunted a good 25 years and I don't recall to many retrieves over 70 yards. Yes it happens but it's not the norm. I also don't usually get my dog to retrieve birds for other people 75 yards away. The hunt test are actually harder then would be in a normal hunting situation. The dog gets sent to retrieve a dead bird on land and water to beyond the normal hunting distances.

From what I understand, the trials over the years have been getting harder and more challenging as the dogs keep getting smarter and smarter because of breeding proven dog lines has produced smarter offspring.

This being said, the trials are more difficult then your normal hunting scenario so if a retriever had a hunt trial title then in reality it proves that the dog is working at a higher level then the average hunting dog (unless the hunter is an extremely poor shot and causing long retrieves all the time.) This in my mind would be a good indication that this dog would be a good dog in the blind or his offspring. You'd have to go and see one of the hunt test to appreciate what these dogs are trained to do. They also need to have a lot of natural ability and the very first hunt test level is done to prove that they have drive, determination, perserverance and natural instinct to hunt.

[Jimsue]

Thanks for the kind words Gilmore I'm glad you are happy, I kept one as well, they were just too birdy! Field trial dogs require lots of expensive training, not to meantion the time involved. That is the key reason why we want to know what we are buying, and we buy from proven stock.

It's a free world buy what makes you happy!

[GoatGuy]

You cannot enter any of the events that Marshall did or get the titles his parents had without being purebred and without being registered with the CKC. (or AKC or UKC)


While papers are 'probably' indicative of talent, they shouldn't be exclusive. That right there is a problem and it has nothing to do with dogs, it has to do with people and their funny 'idea' of how things should be, not about how things are.

My current dog's papered and checked the lineage and all that stuff. Paid the big bucks and she's turned out well. She's lived a hard life and is starting to get old.

I got my last dog for $20, another chocolate with some mutt along the way, and she was a better retriever. Picked things up much quicker as well. No health problems and she lived a long life.

Guess you roll the dice. Either way there's no guarantee, unless you consider $ back on your hunting buddy a guarantee.

[Marc]

While papers are 'probably' indicative of talent, they shouldn't be exclusive. That right there is a problem and it has nothing to do with dogs, it has to do with people and their funny 'idea' of how things should be, not about how things are.

Guess you roll the dice. Either way there's no guarantee, unless you consider $ back on your hunting buddy a guarantee.

You have to remember that this is being put on by the Canadian Kennel Club and other Kennel club’s who believe in keeping the breeds pure. If they allowed un-papered dogs to compete who's to say what breeds have been thrown in the mix and if it's fair or not? It's like "stock" car racing. Without the paper work they can't look under the hood to tell if it's a chevette or a corvette under all that fur.

Most reputable breeders will give you a 2 year guarantee against hips, elbows and eyes. My yellow lab I just put down at the age of 12 years 4 months of age was diagnosed with hip dysplasia at the age of 2 as I had him x-rayed because he was guaranteed against it and I wanted to make sure he was clear. They traced the problem back to the Bitch as she had another pup with Dysplasia from another one of her litters after Nash. The sire was bred to other bitches with no problems. The Bitch only had two bad dogs out of 16 I think it was in total but was passing on the bad gene. The Bitch was fixed and stopped passing on the bad genes. The dogs were sold on no breeding papers and had to have their dogs fixed before they received the papers as part of the buying agreement.

They gave me a replacement dog and gave me the choice of either keeping Nash, or giving him back to be put down. After having a dog for 2 years the last thing I wanted to do is have him put down. I would have loved to have gotten a puppy from Nash but would never take the chance of passing anything on to a litter of pups. I kept him and he hunted right up to 9 years of age.

Not too many people have their unregistered dogs, at 2 years of age, certified for hips, elbows, and eyes before they decide to have a litter of pups. It’s not a 100% guarantee that it will catch everything but the odds are definitely better then nothing at all.

As far as cancer goes, a lot of it is environmental. Dogs chewing on a pieces of pressure treated lumber, eating grass that's been treated with lawn fertilizers, weed killers, pesticides and dog food laced with rat poison to name a few. Some of them probably get it from second hand smoke while in the car with all the windows rolled up as well.

[labguy]

sorry labguy i will have to disagree. if a guy had a buddy that bred labs(papered) and i had a beatiful looking lab and a great retreiver(not papered) and wanted to compete i bet i could talk the buddy into selling me a fake ckc reg. not ethical but that kind of stuff happens in the real world. now i have a registerd lab i can breed and get 1000 bux a pup for. until d.n.a is cheap enough! and your original post had heath issues nothing to do with competions. i can see someone like marc buying one of these high end dogs i do not know him but i gather he is a bird killing machine that eats ,sleeps and drinks bird hunting.most people buy labs for a good companion i believe. (a peice of paper does not always mean what it says.) here's another what if. if a guy breeds high end dogs and and one or two of his breeders developes cancer later on in life, and his stock is related to his breeders is he going to cull his whole kennel? i think not (but maybe) i'm sure he would get away from the bloodline as fast and as quiet as possible.

You make some good points. Anybody can fudge papers and breeding if they choose. There are unethical people in all areas of life and the purebred dog world is certainly no exception.

The people I buy my dogs from are not breeders. They usually own a good male or female and want a pup for themselves so they will seek out a good mate to breed with. These people are not in it for the money but for the betterment of the breed and the furtherment of the sport of dog competition.

I wouldn't buy from a breeder myself because too much emphasise is put on the financial end of it.

Anyway, to each his (or her) own.

[labguy]

(Dutchie Said) I personaly think that this thread should be locked because the premis of this thread is to slam another member and the dogs that he is selling. that is against this forum code of conduct and I personaly do not agree with how this info is being delivered.

I don't know how you could possibly come to this conclusion from the posts I've made and I take exception to your characterization. I'm not slamming anybody for their choices. :shock:

(Dutchie said) With that being said the breeders that out cross and paper it as a pure breed, are the breeders that create some of the biggest problems because this is not dealing with recessive gene, this is trying to weave around it.
These are the breeders that don't care about the blood lines of a dog but creating dogs for look and not performance. (bordercollies are the most problematic dog in North america for this)

I couldn't agree more...........there are lots of unethical people in the dog world.

(Dutchie said) The blood lines of a dog are what is going to show problems in the past and how they were dealt with. and the in-breeding co-efficiant is nothing more then a number. if you look at one of the most problem free kennels EVER in the history of hunting kennels is called "vom hege-haus" in Germany. Some of these dogs have Inbreeding co-efficiancies greater then 75% and not a single problem out of these litters and not only are some of these dogs the most well known hunting dogs in Europe, but they are problem free because the kennel removed the dogs with the recisve genes from the gene pool.

Marc's dog Marshal is a great example of a WELL breed dog and he did his homework, thus getting an exceptional dog!

This is an example of what I've been talking about. It's all about the research and making an informed choice.

(Dutchie Said) The dogs that are crossed with a complete different breed will have different problems and not as many of them. that is because the recissive genes will not rear thier ugly head as easy or as often.

Again you are right on the money. Crossbreds are by far the healthiest because of this. Purebreds are really nothing more than inbreds........I've never disputed any of this in any of my posts. Problem is you can't compete in any sanctioned events with a cross bred. First hunting dog I had was a lab/weimeremer cross from the dog pound. A hunting machine but useless if I would want to enter her in an event

(Dutchie said) I agree with checking the checking for problems but the best way to get a good PURE BREED dog is to study the kennels,and what their dogs are known for, ask questions to current owners, learn how to read pedigree's, and read lots of literature on that breed.

That was all this thread was ever about..........not slamming anyone. I really don't know how you came to such a damning conclusion of my motives. :(

(Dutchie said) This is a long process but it will reward you in the long run.

My point exactely...............

Dutchie[/quote]

[leadpillproductions]

if i knew that me posting about selling my puppies i wouldn't have bothered

[GoatGuy]

You have to remember that this is being put on by the Canadian Kennel Club and other Kennel club’s who believe in keeping the breeds pure. If they allowed un-papered dogs to compete who's to say what breeds have been thrown in the mix and if it's fair or not? It's like "stock" car racing. Without the paper work they can't look under the hood to tell if it's a chevette or a corvette under all that fur.

I guess that's my point. Maybe I'm more of an 'open' or 'equal' class guy. It's like having a competition for people under 5 1/2 feet and over 5 1/2 feet. Now, I'm all for the special olympics but...... hunting's hunting and unless you're ******ed you get to compete with everybody else. Some people are good at high jump others at sprinting.


Most reputable breeders will give you a 2 year guarantee against hips, elbows and eyes.

After having a dog for 2 years the last thing I wanted to do is have him put down.

That was also my point. Cash in the bank or a replacement dog doesn't do you much good.



Not too many people have their unregistered dogs, at 2 years of age, certified for hips, elbows, and eyes before they decide to have a litter of pups. It’s not a 100% guarantee that it will catch everything but the odds are definitely better then nothing at all.

No, that's true but having sex with one of your relatives also puts you at risk and that is the entire point of 'line breeding'. There's risk there too and it's also self-induced. You have a finite gene pool and unless you look at introducing new blood at some point you're going to run into serious problems.



As far as cancer goes, a lot of it is environmental. Dogs chewing on a pieces of pressure treated lumber, eating grass that's been treated with lawn fertilizers, weed killers, pesticides and dog food laced with rat poison to name a few. Some of them probably get it from second hand smoke while in the car with all the windows rolled up as well.


I think hip problems are as well. If you buy a dog and it spends it's time locked inside a couple feet from the dog food you're going to have problems, just like a fat ******* that sits on the couch eating cheesy poufs all day. ;)


This whole concept of 'breeds' is a funny one. I think there's some good stuff mixed in with a bunch of bs. No different than anything else I suppose.

Can anyone remember who the last guy was who had the perfect 'breed' of people? hahahahaha

[dutchie]

The reason for this post is because of some threads advertising hunting dogs that aren't papered (registered with the CKC)

This is were I got that idea... I completly agree with everything you said. and you seem to be a great wealth of knowledge.

I am not judging you or your motives after this first statment, in my opinion this first statment is questionable as leadpill productions and has been the only person in a little while with unpapered dogs for sale.

This is not meant to be sarcastic but Welcome to Hunting BC. I look forward to your future threads and posts.:biggrin:

dutchie

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Lab guy posts like these are constuctive and worth the dicussion as long as everyone plays nice. I am really not sure the benifit of owning a registered dog unless your in it for the ribbons. As it seems the overall consenses so far is if you want a good hunting dog breed the best to the best and then go hunting.:D

[Jimsue]

Good, somebody said it, " you breed the best to the best" The undisputed best working labs come from field trial lines. You and me going duck hunting requires a lab to have a grade 5 education, a National field champion dog lives at UBC or SFU. Maybe someone could tell me where this mythical wonder dog that I should be outcrossing to exists, so I can sneak it into a breeding and win the next National.

If you have a problem with one of my pups you get half your money back and keep the dog, or return it and get a new pup.I think that's pretty fair.

Enjoy your dog,

Jim

[BoomBoom]

geeeze!....

buy a car from a guy in the next county or from a local reputable dealer??

...chances are if there are problems...you would have more legal options and a better chance of 'making it right" with a reputable local dealer.

back yard breeders think they have great dogs (dont we all!?) and they may very well have...but I'll put my money on reputable breeders with registered dogs.

....we need Boppers's experience and opinion here....


where are you Bopper?


boom...

[leadpillproductions]

i really didnt think it would be a big deal to sell a dog on here

[moosetaken]

I picked up a pure but not papered GSP from a member of the board about 5 weeks ago. The post had said that the mother had more puppies than anticipated and 4 were being offered without papers to members only. Was it the right thing to do? I guess only time will tell but I have a great little pup that came from a home (not a puppy mill) that had 3 healthy GSPs living in it. My decision was based on getting a dog from someone on the board that unlike a huge number of breeders used his dogs for what they were meant for not looking pretty in some show ring. If the dog had been papered from the same board member I would have still gone for it. I have had dogs all my life and it's allways a bit of a roll of the dice on the health of any dog. I've been lucky so far with all going over 10 years so far. Remember "dogs aren't our whole lives but they make our lives whole"

[Jimsue]

Regarding the last post, you cannot register 1/2 a litter with CKC , or 5 out of 9, thats crazy. As a CKC member there are many rules you must play by.

[digger dogger]

jimsue, a classic example of people not doing what their supposed to. (moosetaken's post) maybe the guy had 10 pups and sold a couple with no papers to people that don't care bout papers, for less $ and quick sale. you never know whats goin on in someone else's world. if that is the case moosetaken probably got a good dog at a fair price. labguy, i posted because i felt you took an unfair poke at a guy posting about the pups he is gonna have."while some feel that buying one of these dogs will save them $ , i would urge caution" if this is not the case, my apollagies.(people are very touchy about their pets and hunting partners) as you can see. if it doesn't affect you who gives a crapola. (paper no papers) (not everyone plays by the same rules)this thread could be on here for months. may everyones expencive and inexpensive dogs be all you hoped for. peace, d.d

[BlacktailStalker]

Amen to that digger dogger.

Seems to me that every puppy post (often labs) have the same couple people piping up about purebred etc etc and its quite obvious its an indirect attempt to divert peoples attention to their upcoming (or presently available) litters.

Sucks for the people who dont want to hear it because most preachers/pushers go door to door and the people on here cant ignore the "door bell" and end up having to weed through the crap.

In the meantime, maybe the SPCA should euthanize all their dogs because those half breeds and unpapered dogs are junk that are just going to die anyways :roll:

[416]

Regarding the last post, you cannot register 1/2 a litter with CKC , or 5 out of 9, thats crazy. As a CKC member there are many rules you must play by.


As much as person would like to believe its crazy, the reality is the CKC is as honest as the folks who make it up. There is very little to stop a registered breeder except their ethics and honestly from doing all sorts of mischief with the paper work if they are so inclined. To say a dog is registered with the CKC isn't always reflective of quality. Just means some one has paid to join a club that the unknowing public sometime assume registration papers and quality breeding are synonymous. BTW my mother is a life time member, my wife has been for almost two decades and l am a member in good standing with the CKC........its not that l am out to minimize the importance of registration, but l don't have any illusions about the organization, as mentioned, its only as good as its membership.
Ever noticed alot of folks who want the best of breeds (and have the $$$) will often go back to Europe to find good quality stock ( and l don't mean just dogs), their system of monitoring and improving breeds embarrasses what we have in N. A.

[kinderdoggin]

Papers/no papers, that is not the question.

Health testing is available to both registered and unregistered dogs. The CKC may say a full blooded dog with no papers is not purebred (or legally allowed to be proclaimed as such), but we all know that it has the same potential for genetic disease as the dog down the street with the paperwork. It's not going to be any healthier because someone failed to file the papers...

Personally, I think the benefits to health testing are quite obvious, and in my opinion, well-worth the time, $ and nuisance to have done - actually, I just don't see the down side to doing everything you can to produce healthy pups. Thanks to Labguy who put the info out there so that potential puppy buyers can decide for themselves.

Erin

[horshur]

I thought this was a simple concise explanation that was not as biased about current inbreeding practices. Some benifits and some negatives and also alternatives
http://www.cermar.co.uk/In-breeding%20depression.doc.

[labguy]

I thought this was a simple concise explanation that was not as biased about current inbreeding practices. Some benifits and some negatives and also alternatives
http://www.cermar.co.uk/In-breeding%20depression.doc.

Horshur.........do you have the name of the person that wrote this article???

The article was excellent in that it pretty much explains the pitfalls of breeding too close (line breeding). The Royal family is an example of breeding too closely :-(and why they often need to look outside close family(princess Dianna) to improve their breed.

The article also points out how a breed can be improved upon by taking animals that have proven themselves in competitions and combining them so that, hopefully, the desireable genetic variations will rise to the top.

Thanks for the research and though provoking link.

[dutchie]

The article was excellent in that it pretty much explains the pitfalls of breeding too close (line breeding).

"( I am intentionally using the term in-breeding, the breeding of closely related dogs, rather than line-breeding in this article; the differences between the two are to my mind minimal)" This artical is written with the bias of why it is bad but all of the info that is being used actually supports why line-breeding is the best way to breed. Line breeding and In-breeding are COMPLEATLY different. mating of a father and daughter, or a mother and son would be inbreeding. Mating a uncle and cousin, or a 2 cousins would be line breeding. it is alot more sophisticated then this though.

Also if you dig into the meat and bones of this artical what is really being explained is how they are breeding a new type of dog... takeing traits of one dog and adding it to the foundation of another dog.

This artical is self written and non-published because there is more proof supporting the fact that line breeding does infact have very predictable results.

It is the standards of CKC and AKC, NVHDA NADKC, VDD, CANAM ect... to have a inbreeding co-efficancy of less the 17%. So I am going to have to agree with the first part of labguys statment of breeding to close. But Line breeding is proven to be the most successful way of breeding predictable off spring in dogs, horses, llama's, pony's ect...

The best breeders in the world for any animals or livestock, all line breed and yes the recessive genes still do show up but they take the time to deal with the problem gene then and there removing that problem from the gene pool.

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html (http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/inbreeding.html)

http://www.rhiannon-cavaliers.com/linebreeding.htm (http://www.rhiannon-cavaliers.com/linebreeding.htm)

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/breeding-types.html (http://www.bulldoginformation.com/breeding-types.html)

dutchie

[Marc]

To say a dog is registered with the CKC isn't always reflective of quality. Just means some one has paid to join a club that the unknowing public sometime assume registration papers and quality breeding are synonymous.

I agree fully with this statement, like I mentioned when looking for a dog I went to a kennel that had registered pure bred labs but they were just pets. No history of their parents, or ancestors before them ever hunting or doing any form of conformation or trials.

The dog I later chose I got to see the parents papers with the lineage with hunt test, tracking, and all other forms of certifications these dogs and their ancestors obtained. Spent countless hours on the phone with the breeder and in the end decided that this was the breed of dog I wanted. I then had to beg and plead to get one of these dogs off of her and had to pretty much had explain to her why I was suitable for one of her dogs.

I got to meet the breeder who introduced me to the Sire, the bitch, and the pup we decided would best suit me. She had the sire in the back yard showing me why he received the titles that he did and the potential the pup had. Now it was up to me to train him to his abilities.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that a lot of time and effort goes into training a dog for hunting or trials if you're into it, and nothing is more frustrating then finding you've got a dud with no potential other then being a pet. I was extrememly lucky with my very first retriever "Nash" who was a natural for hunting, I wasn't so lucky with my second dog "Penny" who is mostly a foot stool in the living room these days.

I'll admit a lot of the success that Marshall is having is in the amount of training we've done, thanks to those of you who said that "Chessies can't be trained and need a 2 x 4" for the motivation I needed to prove the dog and myself. I by no means consider myself to be a pro ad dog training and I still have a lot to learn. A lot of skill and drive from this dog can be derived from his lineage. He is one smart and determined dog.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying an unregistered pup, I guess I'm trying to explain why it makes sense if you truly are looking for a hunting, or trial dog, to spend the extra time and if need be, the money to get the history, the bill of health, and the reassurance and guidance that goes with buying a pure bred hunting dog.

I talk and email with the breeder every week or so and visit at least every couple of months. This is another sign of someone who is in it for the love of the breed and not solely for the money.

[huntergirl270]

I picked up a pure but not papered GSP from a member of the board about 5 weeks ago. The post had said that the mother had more puppies than anticipated and 4 were being offered without papers to members only. Was it the right thing to do? I guess only time will tell but I have a great little pup that came from a home (not a puppy mill) that had 3 healthy GSPs living in it. My decision was based on getting a dog from someone on the board that unlike a huge number of breeders used his dogs for what they were meant for not looking pretty in some show ring. If the dog had been papered from the same board member I would have still gone for it. I have had dogs all my life and it's allways a bit of a roll of the dice on the health of any dog. I've been lucky so far with all going over 10 years so far. Remember "dogs aren't our whole lives but they make our lives whole"

Jimsue: Regarding the last post, you cannot register 1/2 a litter with CKC , or 5 out of 9, thats crazy. As a CKC member there are many rules you must play by.




Did anyone else read this as-they had just FOUND homes for all but 4 already and NONE were papered or WERE CONCLUSIONS JUST DRAWN that they only registered a portion of the litter?

That is what I see when I read it. Apologies if I am mistaken but I am not assuming the worst of this person when I don't even know the situation at hand.